GaryMcT's 2-player generic control panel layout

[GaryMcT]

I'm working on the layout for a 24 7/16" x 8" control panel.  What do you think?  The buttons above the joysticks are player 1 and 2 start.  I may add some small admin buttons. . not sure about that yet.  The line at the top is the limit of where I can physically place things.  The joystick space is for a JLW or U360:

[Ginsu Victim]

Terrible placement of the start buttons. Move them up and to the right, between stick and the buttons.

[javeryh]

Terrible placement of the start buttons. Move them up and to the right, between stick and the buttons.

+1.  I'd remove them from the CP completely.  There isn't enough room.  You could relocate them to the front of the CP or better yet on a strip of wood right below the monitor.  Knievel's cabs all have an admin panel and it looks and works great.  Also, Player 2's wrist will be resting on the 7th and 8th buttons of Player 1.  With that tight of a space I'd do 6 buttons per player MAX.   As always, mock it up with cardboard first to see how it will play.

[GaryMcT]

Terrible placement of the start buttons. Move them up and to the right, between stick and the buttons.

Cool, I'll give that a shot.

[Ginsu Victim]

Also, Player 2's wrist will be resting on the 7th and 8th buttons of Player 1

I disagree. Are you only looking at the mounting plate? The distance from the buttons to the stick itself seems okay.

Though I would rotate the plates 90° and move the stick closer to each player's buttons.

[GaryMcT]

Terrible placement of the start buttons. Move them up and to the right, between stick and the buttons.

+1.  I'd remove them from the CP completely.  There isn't enough room.  You could relocate them to the front of the CP or better yet on a strip of wood right below the monitor.  Knievel's cabs all have an admin panel and it looks and works great.  Also, Player 2's wrist will be resting on the 7th and 8th buttons of Player 1.  With that tight of a space I'd do 6 buttons per player MAX.   As always, mock it up with cardboard first to see how it will play.

I don't want to mod the cab that this is going in at all, so everything has to be on the control panel.

Good point with player two's hand hitting player one's buttons!  I can either move the buttons left a button position with the assumption that the leftmost column of buttons wouldn't get used too often, and possibly go down to 7 buttons.  I'd like to be able to support the Neo Geo layout on the bottom row and any old console games that require more than six buttons.

As for admin buttons, the most I'd ever want to have is pause and exit.  I really don't like seeing extra buttons that aren't on arcade games on control panels, but they are possibly okay if they are tiny buttons.

I'm planning on doing a cardboard mockup. . . trying to plan ahead before my controls show up.

Thanks!
Gary

[GaryMcT]

Also, Player 2's wrist will be resting on the 7th and 8th buttons of Player 1

I disagree. Are you only looking at the mounting plate? The distance from the buttons to the stick itself seems okay.

Though I would rotate the plates 90° and move the stick closer to each player's buttons.

On second thought, I think you are right Ginsu.  It looks like there is just enough space for the hands to not hit each other.  I can move the buttons a bit closer to the sticks though to be sure (until I can actually test it!)

Would rotating the plates buy me anything?  The sticks are going to be flush mounted and there is plenty of space between the mounting plate and the buttons I think.

[Ginsu Victim]

Would rotating the plates buy me anything?

Well, it would give more room to move the buttons closer to the stick. I have mine mounted that way and it's comfy. I only have a 23 5/8" wide control panel, so I needed to squeeze everything in.

[GaryMcT]

Would rotating the plates buy me anything?

Well, it would give more room to move the buttons closer to the stick. I have mine mounted that way and it's comfy. I only have a 23 5/8" wide control panel, so I needed to squeeze everything in.

Do you have drawings/shots of your control panel somewhere?

[GaryMcT]

Here's another iteration.  The buttons are 9/16" closer to the sticks.  The player start buttons are exactly between the center of the joystick and the leftmost button now on the X axis.  Without the joystick plate, they'll look more appropriately place I think.  Whadya think?

[Ginsu Victim]

Do you have drawings/shots of your control panel somewhere?

Well, the one that I did that way no longer exists. It was a swappable panel for my cab and I messed it up (drilled the button holes too close to each other).

This is my current CP. I need an updated pic, since the buttons are now multi-colored, and as you can see, these are not as close as I described (because this is the first CP I did, before the swappable one I trashed...)



In reply to your new mock-up, I like it.

[GaryMcT]

I'll print it out to scale and bring it into work since there are some hard code game-playing ergo freaks at work.

Thanks!

[Beretta]

just my 2 cents.

1. unless you really want to if thats all the space you have consider scaling it back to 6 buttons.

2. move the start button, perhaps as high up as possible but inline with the first row of buttons.

[Ginsu Victim]

2. move the start button, perhaps as high up as possible but inline with the first row of buttons.

Like my picture above.

[GaryMcT]

I ordered some of these for admin buttons.  Planning on having:

pause
exit
coin 1
coin 2

(Coin really isn't an admin button really, but you certainly don't see it on arcade machines. )

[GaryMcT]

just my 2 cents.

1. unless you really want to if thats all the space you have consider scaling it back to 6 buttons.

2. move the start button, perhaps as high up as possible but inline with the first row of buttons.

OK, I'll move the start button and do a pass on placing the admin buttons tonight and post another iteration.

I'm not sure about scaling the buttons back yet.  It does look a bit cluttered, but they aren't in the way if you aren't using them at least.  I may defer that decision until after actually playing it in cardboard.

Thanks!
Gary

[Beretta]

this is a personal preference but you only need 1 admin button.

make make controls admin_button+something else..

example instead of having a button just to drop coins why not do this:

admin+1p joy stick down = coin drop 1
admin+2p joy stick down = coin drop 2
admin+1p joy stick left or right = pause
admin+1p start+2p start = exit
i'd also add a way to get into mames menu for input/dip switch control..

perhaps admin+1p joy stick up = mame on screen menu.

again this is personal preference, but this way you save cp space, time making holes, and money buying buttons.

a word about the mame menu though others will be able to get into it and mess with your settings.. so you may instead want to put it as a dedicated button accessed though the coin door.

2. move the start button, perhaps as high up as possible but inline with the first row of buttons.

Like my picture above.

ya.

[bkenobi]

Sounds complicated to explain that to a guest.  I just put Pause and Exit buttons on.  You must either have a Start button or map it to P1B1/P2B1.  As for coin, I added them.  I could have used the coin door, but didn't.  I did it that way on my second cab because I didn't want to mod an original and good condition Championship Sprint CP.

Like you said, it's personal preference.   

[Ginsu Victim]

Sounds complicated to explain that to a guest.

Exactly what I was going to say, and the answer is not instruction cards because THEY DON'T READ THEM!

[Beretta]

not really pause imo really should'nt be used, i dont even plan on having it as a option on mine.

you're left with (possibly a mame neu)

2 coin drop combos, and exit..

simple tell guest hold this button, press 1st and 2nd player start to exit.

for coin hold this button (make sure you point since the guest must be brain dead), and press down on the joy stick.

is it really that complicated?


or if you're afriad your guest at to stupid even for that you can tell mame that the start button is also coin drop.

then all they gotta do is hit the start button (sometimes twice)

[Ginsu Victim]

One of my regular guests has Down's syndrome.

[GaryMcT]

I really hate extra buttons, but I'm okay with it if you can get tiny buttons that don't look like arcade buttons.  That's how I'm justifying it to myself.
 

[Ginsu Victim]

I've hidden most of my admin buttons. I have a few shifted, but they are mostly buttons hidden inside the coin door, beneath the CP, or on top of the cab.

The more shifted buttons you have, the more problems you'll run into. They always find a way to trigger at the wrong time.

[bkenobi]

I don't use pause that often, but I thought I would which is why it's there.  I do find it very convenient being able to hit pause to respond to my wife rather than getting smacked over the head 

[Ginsu Victim]

I like pause because on console emulators I use it for SELECT.

[mytymaus007]

DECENT LAYOUT OVERALL GREAT FIGHTER LAYOUT  i DONT SEE TRUE ASTEROIDS AND DEFENDER LAYOUT OR A ORIGINAL PACMAN MIDWAY LEAF SWITCH 4 WAY BUT ILL GIVE YOU 7 OUT OF 10

[GaryMcT]

DECENT LAYOUT OVERALL GREAT FIGHTER LAYOUT  i DONT SEE TRUE ASTEROIDS AND DEFENDER LAYOUT OR A ORIGINAL PACMAN MIDWAY LEAF SWITCH 4 WAY BUT ILL GIVE YOU 7 OUT OF 10

I have a dedicated Defender panel, and Pacman will be covered by a vertical machine (this is the horizontal one).

[GaryMcT]

Another revision.  I decided to move all of the playable controls up as high as possible to get plenty of palm space.  Everything else is in the middle as tiny buttons, including player 1 and 2 start.  I'm not sure how many buttons there will be in the middle yet, but this is the general idea of what I'm thinking right now:

[bkenobi]

If you are going to use those small buttons, perhaps you could center them between the P1 right buttons and the P2 stick more?  I suppose that might require rotating the base for at least the P2 stick (as someone else already suggested).  I'm just guessing, but your buttons are P1/P2 start and coin, Pause, quit?

Btw, if you do try moving the center row of buttons to the right, make sure they aren't too close to the stick so the get mashed during game play.  You'd probably have to mock it up to determine if that's a problem though.

[GaryMcT]

If you are going to use those small buttons, perhaps you could center them between the P1 right buttons and the P2 stick more?  I suppose that might require rotating the base for at least the P2 stick (as someone else already suggested).  I'm just guessing, but your buttons are P1/P2 start and coin, Pause, quit?

Btw, if you do try moving the center row of buttons to the right, make sure they aren't too close to the stick so the get mashed during game play.  You'd probably have to mock it up to determine if that's a problem though.

Good point.  I'll have to look at it with the boxes removed from around the joystick since it shouldn't be visible.

If I end up hitting the little buttons with the player 2 joystick hand, I can move the joystick closer to the buttons on both.

[Beretta]

One of my regular guests has Down's syndrome.

sorry i meant no disrespect, just seems like holding a button and moving the joystick in one direction is'nt to hard to master, saves time,money,space on the CP

[Ginsu Victim]

One of my regular guests has Down's syndrome.

sorry i meant no disrespect, just seems like holding a button and moving the joystick in one direction is'nt to hard to master, saves time,money,space on the CP

I didn't take offense. I was just pointing out my situation. I might build him his own cab in the near future and I have to make it as handicap-friendly as possible, meaning everything will need to be easy to understand and the frontend will need to be simple to navigate. Luckily, he understands how to move through Mamewah fairly well and is pretty good at video games (I know he beat Resident Evil 2 on the normal difficulty setting, and when he was over here, he beat X-Men on only a handful of credits).

Another revision.  I decided to move all of the playable controls up as high as possible to get plenty of palm space.  Everything else is in the middle as tiny buttons, including player 1 and 2 start.  I'm not sure how many buttons there will be in the middle yet, but this is the general idea of what I'm thinking right now:

I think you might've went too high. I know it's only an 8" distance you're working in, but maybe bring the player controls down an inch, bring back the full size buttons for the player starts, and line the admin buttons along the top. Here's a quick mockup:

[Bender]

Personally I'd go with 7 button layout, and use a shift function for the other admin functions (6 is way to many buttons even if they are small)
I think Ginsu is getting close, here is my slight tweak of his tweak

[Ginsu Victim]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of even that many admin buttons, but it seems to be what he wants, so I just tweaked them slightly.

[evitagen]

I put the admin buttons (besides start and insert coin) on the side of the CP on Player 1's side.  That way it you'll never have to worry about them getting in your way, and only Player 1 has access to them.

[GaryMcT]

Here's another iteration:



I went down to 7 buttons and moved the 7th button down a bit because seems more ergonomic, gives more space above, AND it looks better for it to be a curve.

I rotated the joystick mount to give some space for the player start buttons.  The guideline at the top is as high as I can physically go on this control panel.  I'm a bit worried about the player 1 joystick being too close to the edge of the cab, but playtesting will prove that out.

I'm going with Bender-ish "enter", "exit", and "pause" for the admin buttons in the middle.

I don't yet know where to put a coin button or two.  I suppose I could put a small button next to the player start button on each side.  Ideas?

[Ginsu Victim]

It looks like your buttons got further away from the stick. You're gonna need all the elbow room you can get with that small of a panel, so you might want to move the buttons closer.

As for coin buttons....

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but is this going on a cabinet, bartop, or stand-alone control panel? If it's a cabinet, is there a coin door?

Also, you mentioned getting too close to the left edge with the joystick, but if you look at my photo from above, you can see mine is fairly close and I can assure you it's quite comfy.

[Bender]

ginsu's got it

move the sticks a little to the right and wire the coin returns for the credit button (I don't think you want any more buttons on a 2 Player CP that small)

[GaryMcT]

OK, so move the joysticks to the right a bit, and move the player starts right accordingly so that they are centered between the joystick and the "button 7"?

I'll look into wiring the coin returns, but I'm trying really hard to not do any mods to this machine.  This is going in a Defender machine that I want to be able to go back to being a Defender machine at any point by just swapping some connectors.  I built an adapter to make the Defender control panel plug into an iPac so that I didn't have to mod anything.  I'm at the point now where I can play Defender and Stargate (player 2 start is inviso) on the machine using Mame and easily swap back to playing the PCB Defender.  The next step is to build this fairly generic control panel that I can swap in with Mame.

[Ginsu Victim]

Well, Bender and I have two different ideas here. I meant leave the sticks where they are and move the buttons left.

As for the coin door, there's no mods being done if you just change the wiring. It's just simple disconnects. Pull the Defender wires off and plug the new ones in.

[bkenobi]

I used some long leaf spring micro switches (taken from an old broken joystick) and used some double sided tape to attach them to the coin door behind the coin reject button.  It hasn't come off in over a year and works fine.  There's no permanent mods to the coin door that way either.

[GaryMcT]

I also saw mention somewhere of someone rigging a microswitch for this.  If I can clean up the eject mechanism to the point where it isn't really sticky (it is now), I'll give that a try.

Thanks!

[Ginsu Victim]

I rigged up a microswitch behind one of my rejects and used that for credits.

These pics suck, so you can't even tell what's going on in them, but what you're supposed to see is a microswitch mounted on a small bit of wood that is gorilla glued to the coin chute. Everything still functions as normal, except now when you press the player 2 reject, it engages the switch (and it can still reject a stuck coin).

[GaryMcT]

OK, I stood at a machine here at work and found that you guys are right about the stick being too far away from the buttons.  Will do another pass on it tonight and hopefully get the player start buttons in a more sane place in the process.

I may take some time to look into hooking a micro switch up to the coin eject too like you guys mentioned.  Woo hoo!

[GaryMcT]

Here's another version!  Moved the buttons closer to the sticks.  Rearranged the admin buttons.  Put the player start buttons in the middle.  Whadya think?

[Ginsu Victim]

One of those admin buttons wouldn't happen to be EXIT, would it? If so, you might not want to reach for Start to continue your game and accidentally catch the exit button. Even when my setup required me to hit two buttons to exit, I still did it by mistake. Otherwise, looking good. Just make sure to leave enough room for the button nut on the ones closest to the plates.

[GaryMcT]

One of those admin buttons wouldn't happen to be EXIT, would it? If so, you might not want to reach for Start to continue your game and accidentally catch the exit button. Even when my setup required me to hit two buttons to exit, I still did it by mistake. Otherwise, looking good. Just make sure to leave enough room for the button nut on the ones closest to the plates.

Hmm, it might not be too hard to modify mame so that you have to hold the button down for a couple seconds for it to actually exit.

[Ginsu Victim]

The source is available. If you do it, please share. Hold to exit would be awesome and would be appreciated by the community. (Now we just need a frontend based on the Source engine, so that after you lose in a game, you just pull out your crowbar and give the cab a few whacks....or toss it with the gravity gun) 

[GaryMcT]

I'm contemplating doing better CRT and vector emulation in mame too, if I ever get to it.

[Ginsu Victim]

 

[Beretta]

if you're gonna go make changes to allow for delays, i might also throw in a request for "sequences"

ie hitting buttons in a order would do X command.

[smalltownguy]

+1

[GaryMcT]

if you're gonna go make changes to allow for delays, i might also throw in a request for "sequences"

ie hitting buttons in a order would do X command.

I'll have a look.  That is probably quite a bit more work than making it so that you have to hold escape down for a time period before it takes affect.

[GaryMcT]

Sorry for the newby question, but on a different note, Franco's post on how to top mount joysticks is great!  Is there an equivalent for old-school long and short leaf-switch buttons and/or happ-style buttons?  I'm trying to get prepared for my controls showing up.

Also, what do you guys normally prototype in?  Cardboard seems like it'd be hard to play on.  Does panelling wood work well?

[Ginsu Victim]

Even just "hold to exit" would be an improvement. (I can't believe with your line of work that you'd want to code in your free time, but hey, if you enjoy it, more power to you!)

[Ginsu Victim]

Also, what do you guys normally prototype in?  Cardboard seems like it'd be hard to play on.  Does panelling wood work well?

It's not for a playable mockup. It's just to make sure the layout feels comfy, so cardboard tends to be the norm. Of course, you could always do a playable mockup if you want.

[GaryMcT]

Even just "hold to exit" would be an improvement. (I can't believe with your line of work that you'd want to code in your free time, but hey, if you enjoy it, more power to you!)

I haven't coded at home much since we finished HL2 where I worked at home and at work constantly.  I'm willing to do it to support my other hobbies though.  I've been tempted to work on a 2D old-school co-op game at home with Smash TV controls at home.  Who knows if I'll ever get to it though.  Doing the CRT and vector emulation would be less work, and would benefit more people I think.

[Ginsu Victim]

Oh hell yeah, for sure.

[GaryMcT]

Also, what do you guys normally prototype in?  Cardboard seems like it'd be hard to play on.  Does panelling wood work well?

It's not for a playable mockup. It's just to make sure the layout feels comfy, so cardboard tends to be the norm. Of course, you could always do a playable mockup if you want.

OK, cardboard it is for feel.  I'll do MDF after that is sorted out.  I figure with how green I am at carpentry, it'll take more than one try with the MDF.

[GaryMcT]

Sorry for the newby question, but on a different note, Franco's post on how to top mount joysticks is great!  Is there an equivalent for old-school long and short leaf-switch buttons and/or happ-style buttons?  I'm trying to get prepared for my controls showing up.

Bump on the newby question since we started talking about other stuff.

[Ginsu Victim]

Just make sure to wear a mask and goggles. MDF is very fine and gets EVERYWHERE.

I'm quite the novice when it comes to woodwork, but drilling holes is pretty simple. Laying out and drilling a control panel is pretty easy.

[Ginsu Victim]

Sorry for the newby question, but on a different note, Franco's post on how to top mount joysticks is great!  Is there an equivalent for old-school long and short leaf-switch buttons and/or happ-style buttons?  I'm trying to get prepared for my controls showing up.

Bump on the newby question since we started talking about other stuff.

You mean like a template? If so, check out http://www.slagcoin.com/ (which has a lot of other helpful info for you)

[GaryMcT]

Sorry for the newby question, but on a different note, Franco's post on how to top mount joysticks is great!  Is there an equivalent for old-school long and short leaf-switch buttons and/or happ-style buttons?  I'm trying to get prepared for my controls showing up.

Bump on the newby question since we started talking about other stuff.

You mean like a template? If so, check out http://www.slagcoin.com/ (which has a lot of other helpful info for you)

Excellent!  That's exactly what I'm looking for.   Thanks!

[Ginsu Victim]

He shits on Happ a bit too much, but there's a lot of good stuff to help you get started.

[GaryMcT]

He shits on Happ a bit too much, but there's a lot of good stuff to help you get started.

I haven't decided which type of buttons to use yet.  I have a bunch of NOS short leaf-switches on the way (got some for my Asteroids Deluxe machine, Defender machine, and then some!)  I have some Happ ones with Micro-Leafs in them to try out.  If I don't like those, I'll likely go with the NOS ones.

[Ginsu Victim]

Happs with Micro-leafs will probably be fine (and cost less to populate a full CP with compared to outfitting it with leafs).

[bkenobi]

If you want to save your lungs and wallet a bit, you could use plywood for your mock up layout.  I guess it will only save money if you go through a number of iterations and/or have no other use for plywood.  I had some scavenged sheets sitting around, so I used that.

MDF makes a lot of dust that will irritate your eyes, lungs, etc. and will be VERY messy to clean up (which Ginsu already said).  If you use plywood, then you have a playable panel that won't cost as much and won't make all the dust.  Your choice though.

Oh, one other advantage:  when you have a design you like, you also have a template you can use for drilling the final!

[GaryMcT]

If you want to save your lungs and wallet a bit, you could use plywood for your mock up layout.  I guess it will only save money if you go through a number of iterations and/or have no other use for plywood.  I had some scavenged sheets sitting around, so I used that.

MDF makes a lot of dust that will irritate your eyes, lungs, etc. and will be VERY messy to clean up (which Ginsu already said).  If you use plywood, then you have a playable panel that won't cost as much and won't make all the dust.  Your choice though.

Oh, one other advantage:  when you have a design you like, you also have a template you can use for drilling the final!

That's good to know.  I picked up a mask and some goggles.  I might have some plywood in the garage, I'll start with that if so.

Thanks for the info!

[GaryMcT]

All of my controls showed up today!  I think I'm going to really like the U360!  Haven't had a chance to try all of the restrictors and swap out the springs yet.  I suspect that I'll end up with the circular restrictor and the stronger springs like most everyone else.  The JLW feels good too.  I got some of the adjustable micro-switches from GGG hoping that I can put those in there to get rid of some of the clickiness.  Haven't gotten around to looking into that yet.  The micro-leafs appear to be exactly what I want for the buttons!

I've done some prototyping in paper so far. . couple more iterations there before I move on to cardboard.

[Lilwolf]

Sorry for going in late for the thread... but...

1) admin buttons near the start buttons will cause problems

2) Sure on the curvature of the buttons?  I think people should do it if the local arcades when you where growing up had them on the SF games... Otherwise have them straight across.

3) move that 4th bottom on the bottom to the right side.  I had it like that once and hated it...  but I guess you probably had someone say the opposite

4) I have my admin buttons as my side pinball buttons.  Works great (but I do have kids kick my off my game when they are watching, when they get bored... but my kids are grown up a bit now and not a problem)

5) You don't need an enter key... just use your first button...

6) an insert speedup button is used more then pause

7) make a mock up.  Go get an extra board either cheap or scrap or whatever that you put the buttons on before making it look nice.  Wire it up and play for a week+.  I've recreated in my 2 player 8way control panel maybe 10 times and thats one of the simpler control panels (but the most common used).  Don't expect it to be perfect on your first run...  Quick disconnects make it so you can rewire in 1/2 hour once you get yours 'production ready'

good luck

[protokatie]

Sorry for going in late for the thread... but...

1) admin buttons near the start buttons will cause problems

2) Sure on the curvature of the buttons?  I think people should do it if the local arcades when you where growing up had them on the SF games... Otherwise have them straight across.

3) move that 4th bottom on the bottom to the right side.  I had it like that once and hated it...  but I guess you probably had someone say the opposite

4) I have my admin buttons as my side pinball buttons.  Works great (but I do have kids kick my off my game when they are watching, when they get bored... but my kids are grown up a bit now and not a problem)

5) You don't need an enter key... just use your first button...

6) an insert speedup button is used more then pause

7) make a mock up.  Go get an extra board either cheap or scrap or whatever that you put the buttons on before making it look nice.  Wire it up and play for a week+.  I've recreated in my 2 player 8way control panel maybe 10 times and thats one of the simpler control panels (but the most common used).  Don't expect it to be perfect on your first run...  Quick disconnects make it so you can rewire in 1/2 hour once you get yours 'production ready'

good luck

Just doing a point by point here:

#1: Yeah, admin buttons shouldn't be anywhere near buttons used during gameplay. On my mockup they are in the upper left, but there may not be enough space on this CP design for that placement.

#2: The button curve seems fine to me, I think it has to do with how someone places their hands on the CP, for me the curve works in my favor.

#3: Have to disagree on this one as well, but only because I am an avid NeoGeo fan and the bottom row of buttons + the way I put my hands down make it so the button "needs" to be on the left.

#4: Good option, have thought about it myself. Might work well for this guy's cramped CP.

..

#6: Pause is a really good option, but seeing as how it could easily be changed in MAME to a speedup button, it is not much an issue (unless he gets a silkscreen on his CP that says Pause, which would make it much harder to realistically change)


#7: Yep, blowing a little money/time on testing will save you a lot of headache in the end, but a programmer already knows this, right?

[Bender]

If switch them though so the admins are on top and the player start buttons are on the bottom
I don't think the admin buttons near the start buttons will be a problem
first off there are drastically different sizes and second those admin buttons (if your using the ones I used) are harder to press than regular arcade pushbuttons

[GaryMcT]

Like Bender says, these buttons are so hard to press that there is no way that I'll hit them by accident.  I'm not entirely convince that I like these buttons, but they may be just fine.

Bender, I will move the start buttons below the admin buttons.

I've rotated the thumb button lower than the last drawing.  I may move it a bit farther away than it is from its nearest neighbor for comfort reasons.

I'm happy with the curved layout.  This is about ergonomics for me, not about emulating what it used to be like.  I use a split keyboard and a standing desk now, and I certainly didn't use those 20 years ago.

I'll finalize the function (and of course number) of admin buttons before doing a control panel overlay.  I get the feeling that speedup could be a shifted button for me to use where no one else needs to really ever use it.  The admin buttons for me are exactly what I want other folks to see to be able to get around when they use the machine without me having to help them.

Putting the admin buttons on the side isn't an option for the cabinet that this is going in (which I'm not going to modify).

I may still keep an enter key to keep the right-hand UI for getting around in the menus in one place.  Also, button layout on different panels are going to be different, and I want to standardize on what's in the middle with the start and admin buttons.

I'm like to move from paper straight to thin plywood tonight so that we can get some playing in.  I won't bother with any routing and will just topmount everything, so it sould be really fast (once I put my drill press together! )

[GaryMcT]

So I have two Ultrastik 360s to put on this control panel.  I also have an ipac4 wired with the most important 24 connections on a DB25.  I'm contemplating wiring all full-sized buttons (7 per player + start) to the U360's and the admin buttons to the ipac4.  Does the shift function only works within one of the interfaces?  I'm assuming so.  If that's the case, I'd leave player 1 start as the shift button and use player buttons for shifted functionality.

Any other recommendations?

[Bender]

If your going to use an IPAC anyway, unless there is a shortage of connectors, I'd use it for all the inputs, it keeps everything simple and I'n think the 360 buttons are be seen as gamepad buttons instead of keyboard presses and that can be an issue sometimes

[GaryMcT]

If your going to use an IPAC anyway, unless there is a shortage of connectors, I'd use it for all the inputs, it keeps everything simple and I'n think the 360 buttons are be seen as gamepad buttons instead of keyboard presses and that can be an issue sometimes

OK, I can do that.  I may screw up my standardized mapping that way though since my DB25 is organized such that each player gets six buttons.  I can use one of the digital joystick directions for the seventh button I suppose, or I can go ahead and do the second DB25 that I planned on doing if I ever needed more inputs to catch everything else.  Will have to think about that.

[GaryMcT]

Wow. . I should really stuck to software.   Took me many many hours to assemble my drill press.  Would have gone more quickly if it had no instructions.  I only have one part left that I don't know what to do with.  That's good, right?

[protokatie]

It's like IKEA products, the fact you have only one errant part means you were too anal about putting it together. Try taking it apart again, then forget about it, come back the next day and try to remember if any more parts are missing and THEN you will be putting it together correctly (ESP if you find a screw or plate a few years later that got kicked under a piece of furnature).

Also, if it is a three pronged plug, and you only have a two pronged outlet, the best thing to do is to cut off the grounding plug. But you must find a new ground for it, so I suggest soldering a wire to the case and hook it to a metal bracelet that you wear on your left wrist. That will properly ground it.

[Bender]

it took me hours to put my drill press together and I had somebody helping me too

I will say it was worth it though I love that thing I use it all the time. Just yesterday I used it to fix my eye glasses... Seriously! saved me $300 for a new pair

did you already wire up the db25?
there should be more than enough connectors on an Ipac4 for 8+ buttons on a 2 player CP
I think I missed something

[bkenobi]

There are some games that might be easier to set up if the buttons are on the same controller as the stick (SFIV comes to mind).  If you have 2 controllers, then you might need to use PPJoy and GlovePIE to recombine things.  It's not a show stopper, but something you might consider.

But, since you already have the IPAC4, you might as well use it, right?

[GaryMcT]

did you already wire up the db25?
there should be more than enough connectors on an Ipac4 for 8+ buttons on a 2 player CP
I think I missed something

It'll definitely work just using the ipac4 for all the buttons and the USB from the U360s.  I was trying to keep the logical names of all the inputs on the ipac4 sane for the generic mapping that I had chosen for the 24 connections over the db25.  I never expected more than 7 buttons per player.  I can make it work though.  I think I'll use U360's on all control panels, which helps the issue (ie. I only need joystick directions for the special case of the Defender panel, etc.)

Bkenobi is right though about SFIV though. . . a friend had problems with that.  Only one of the players can be mapped to the keyboard, the other ones has to be a gamepad.  Hmmmm, need to figure that out before I finalize this.

Bender, what sort of problems have you seen with the controls being treated as a gamepad?

[Bender]

I can't remember off the top of my head now, my memory is for ---Cleveland steamer--- these days
I do remember running into trouble with the gamepad and not with the key presses
One was defiantly a front end thing, and I think Dazz just mentioned that some emu's don't except gampads inputs
I never use PC games with my cab so I've never run into that (seems weak that you HAVE to use a gamepad in SFIV)

Now you have me curious, I think we should put it to the members and get a general consensus (if that's possible)

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, wonder if it's worth starting a new thread so that folks see it.

[Bender]

why not?

[GaryMcT]

Done!

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=94614.0

[GaryMcT]

I got a prototype mostly built this morning in 1/2" plywood.  Forstner bits and the drill press are great!  My ability to cut a straight line, not so great.  Need to figure out how to do that using the tools that I have, or get more tools.  

If you had a router, a drill press, and a jigsaw (with attachable guide thingy), how would you cut out a rectangular piece of wood, and cut out rectangular holes for mounting joysticks (nothing fancy here yet since these are prototypes and i'm not routing the holes).  I also need to angle the back of the control panel so that it fits properly. . .router?

I'll post some pictures of the progress so far later.  Need to get some screws so that I can mount the joysticks, wire it up, and test it out!

[GaryMcT]

If you were top mounting an Ultrastik 360 in 1/2" plywood (with no routing. . . ugly and sticking up on the top ), what kind of screws would you use?

[KissMyWookie]

I got a prototype mostly built this morning in 1/2" plywood.  Forstner bits and the drill press are great!  My ability to cut a straight line, not so great.  Need to figure out how to do that using the tools that I have, or get more tools.  

If you had a router, a drill press, and a jigsaw (with attachable guide thingy), how would you cut out a rectangular piece of wood, and cut out rectangular holes for mounting joysticks (nothing fancy here yet since these are prototypes and i'm not routing the holes).  I also need to angle the back of the control panel so that it fits properly. . .router?

I'll post some pictures of the progress so far later.  Need to get some screws so that I can mount the joysticks, wire it up, and test it out!

You can never have enough tools!

As for cutting a straight line - with either a router or a jigsaw, clamp a straight-edge to your workpiece and use that as a guide. (For the router, you could either run the side of the router base against the straight edge, or use a templating bit with a roller bearing and run the bearing against the straight-edge).

So, umm, is HL2 Ep3 even in production over at Valve?

Steve

[GaryMcT]

I got a prototype mostly built this morning in 1/2" plywood.  Forstner bits and the drill press are great!  My ability to cut a straight line, not so great.  Need to figure out how to do that using the tools that I have, or get more tools.  

If you had a router, a drill press, and a jigsaw (with attachable guide thingy), how would you cut out a rectangular piece of wood, and cut out rectangular holes for mounting joysticks (nothing fancy here yet since these are prototypes and i'm not routing the holes).  I also need to angle the back of the control panel so that it fits properly. . .router?

I'll post some pictures of the progress so far later.  Need to get some screws so that I can mount the joysticks, wire it up, and test it out!

You can never have enough tools!

As for cutting a straight line - with either a router or a jigsaw, clamp a straight-edge to your workpiece and use that as a guide. (For the router, you could either run the side of the router base against the straight edge, or use a templating bit with a roller bearing and run the bearing against the straight-edge).

So, umm, is HL2 Ep3 even in production over at Valve?

Steve

OK, must buy clamps. And must take router out of box.   I'm having a good time hacking with the jigsaw so far.  There are quite a few problems with the first prototype that I'm glad I didn't spend much time on it. . I need to learn how to do everything though so that when I get to the final one I'll be able to do it cleanly.

I'm too busy working on control panels!  (Just kidding!)

[Ginsu Victim]

So, umm, is HL2 Ep3 even in production over at Valve?

I already figured out not to bother asking Valve-related questions.

[GaryMcT]

If you were top mounting an Ultrastik 360 in 1/2" plywood (with no routing. . . ugly and sticking up on the top ), what kind of screws would you use?

Nevermind, ended up getting some #10-24x1" machine screws, washers, and bolts.  I think that'll work fine (and I'm moving over to 3/4" plywood for the next prototype.)

[GaryMcT]

Is it just me, or is the octagonal restrictor for the U360 really hard to install?  Or are the posts for the octagonal restrictor different than the square/circular restrictors?  Seems like the octagonal restrictor needs to be drilled out to be installable if the posts are the same.  (I don't have the posts that came with the octagonal restrictor with me at work. . . )

[bkenobi]

Based on my relatively cheap jig saw, I don't think you will be happy with the results of using that to cuto ut your CP.  I would use a circular saw if it were me.  Alternately, you could use the jig saw to cut the basic shape and then use a straight edge combined with the router to get a nice finished cut.

[GaryMcT]

Based on my relatively cheap jig saw, I don't think you will be happy with the results of using that to cuto ut your CP.  I would use a circular saw if it were me.  Alternately, you could use the jig saw to cut the basic shape and then use a straight edge combined with the router to get a nice finished cut.

Sounds like a plan!

[GaryMcT]

Got the two U360's mounted.  I think I may have screwed up one of 'em when I took it apart to replace the spring and install the circular restrictor. . it's out of alignment now.   Hopefully Andy can help me figure out what is going on.  Fortnately I have one working one so that I can swap out parts to debug it. . going to wait until I hear from him before I proceed though.

I don't have the buttons wired up yet, and I have one properly working U360, so what else could I do. . . . . . PLAY LOTS OF SPED UP MS. PACMAN!!!!   Man oh man is the U360 with the circular restrictor and hard springs extremely extremely good for this game.  My desire for a square restrictor for this game has just gone away.

Now if I can get the other stick working (before I get the buttons wired up), it's time for some Smash TV and Robotron!  I can definitely see progress slowing down as more and more games start working properly.

[Bender]

the U360's are self calibrating
You probably already tried it...  but just restart and make sure it's centered and you don't touch it while it loads up
or is it physically out of alignment?

[Ginsu Victim]

And have you cleared the gamepad calibration settings in windows?

[GaryMcT]

They are both working fine now!  Talked to Andy on the phone.  Turns out I hadn't reinstalled the washers between the restrictor and the posts.  Doh!  Now I can play Robotron!

[Ginsu Victim]

You may have to make some adjustments to the dead zone in MAME for Robotron. My U360s and a friend of mine both had the same issue with that game. The dead zone had to be increased or else it started firing in some directions depending on where the stick settled (since it never quite hits absolute zero).

[GaryMcT]

You may have to make some adjustments to the dead zone in MAME for Robotron. My U360s and a friend of mine both had the same issue with that game. The dead zone had to be increased or else it started firing in some directions depending on where the stick settled (since it never quite hits absolute zero).

Seems to play find in 8-way mode so far.

Is EMDKAY your thing?

[Ginsu Victim]

Is EMDKAY your thing?

Nope, just a vendor I highly recommend.

[GaryMcT]

Here's the state of things as of a couple nights ago.  Very very very rough prototype.  I have all the buttons in and the joysticks mounted.  I haven't wired up the buttons yet since I got stuck playing Robotron last night for quite a while. 

So far the left-hand joystick is too close to the left, and the buttons are too close to the joysticks.  The middle is also not complete.  I think anything in the middle is going to have to be in a vertical line to make room for moving the joysticks and buttons apart, and moving the lefthand player a bit to the right.

[GaryMcT]

Ugh, I can't believe a newer NVidia or ATI card can't do low frequency resolutions when my old juniker laptop could!  I see an ArcadeVGA in my near future. . . spent too much money on this stuff lately, so it'll have to wait and just stretching for now. . yuck.

Back to controls. . . .

[GaryMcT]

Got the PC limping along using video stretching etc. until I get an ArcadeVGA.  Man oh man is this machine hitching like mad!  Going to have to kill all the non-essential stuff in XP.  I already have Linux on that machine so I may go ahead and give that a try for running at the proper resolution and refresh rate with AdvanceMame.  If that works out, may update the diffs to the latest Mame. . looks like AdvanceMame is a pretty old verison now.

[bkenobi]

I would put the P1/P2 start buttons in the corners before going vertical with them.

[GaryMcT]

I would put the P1/P2 start buttons in the corners before going vertical with them.

Good point!  I'll give that a try. It is unusable space on the sides for gameplay anyhow. 

[GaryMcT]

There is a tiny spot at the top that is just enough to fit the player 1 and 2 start buttons.  Can't put buttons that high anywhere else on the control panel due to physical constraints.  They look really close to the top, but I think that's okay for this prototype.  I've actually shortened the control panel by 1/8" to account for a slant that I'm going to have to deal with later.  That'll make the buttons have a bit more wood to the north of them.

I decided to give 3 inches of clearance to the left side of the player 1 joystick plate in case player 1 is resting their hand on the control panel to the left of the stick.  There isn't as much clearance to the left of the stick for player 2, but I'll see how it works.  Two player is going to be a bit cramped no matter what on this narrow of a control panel.  When I'm playing one player, I'm actually likely to use the player 1 joystick with the player 2 buttons since that is more comfortable for me.

The hold-down clamps are in the way on the right side for the buttons, so I had to move player 2 to the left a bit. 

I'm ignoring the admin buttons for now.  The tiny buttons that I'm using are shallow enough that I may be able to get them at the top of the control panel with some creative routing. At some point I'm probably going to have to start asking opinions on how to mount those tiny buttons if it doesn't become obvious.   I haven't fired up my router yet, so that's more to learn about.

Going to hopefully build another prototype today with this as the basis:

[Ginsu Victim]

So when playing something like Metal Slug, TMNT, or whatever, player two is going to need to reach across you to continue. I think the player two start button is in a bad spot.

[GaryMcT]

Very very good point.  I can move the player 2 start to the lower right on the control panel (can't put it in the upper right due to the hold down clamps being in the way.  I can leave the player one start where it is and possibly crap an admin button or two right next to it.

[GaryMcT]

I need 3" to the left of the joystick plate for my hand which my latest drawing accounts for.  My wife needs 2 1/4".  I may have to move the buttons closer to the stick to accommodate her playing as player two.

[Ginsu Victim]

Very very good point.  I can move the player 2 start to the lower right on the control panel (can't put it in the upper right due to the hold down clamps being in the way.  I can leave the player one start where it is and possibly crap an admin button or two right next to it.

Can't just do this?

[GaryMcT]

No. The spot where I have the 2 buttons is the only spot that high where buttons can go due to the tiny blank spot there in the cab for the Defender joystick.

[GaryMcT]

Really liking the new layout so far.  Need to figure out how to mount the smaller buttons (or some other type of buttons) up high where there is no clearance between the 3/4" MDF/plywood.

[Bender]

if you solder leads directly to those buttons I used and bend the leads down. I'm positive they'll be less than 3/4" and you can just cut a small channel for the wires

actually I'd solder a few inches of wire right to the leads and then put connectors on the end of the wires so you can connect and disconnect if you need to

Edit: just saw your question in the benderama thread

even though there there is no clearance underneath you can still drill all the way through can't you?

[GaryMcT]

Sounds like a plan!  Yes, those are the buttons that I'm using.  I haven't tried to mount those buttons to anything yet, so I'd better get to that soon on one of the prototypes since I'm likely to mess it up the first time.   Do I just cut a 0.52" ish hole straight through and everything works out, or does it need something more elaborate to hold it in there?

[Bender]

Actually from the back with a 1" fostner bit in your new drill press
you drill about 5/8 into the plywood but obviously not all the way through(the buttons only have like a 1/8" thread on them) then the .52" hole centered inside the 1" hole
it is easier to do it in this order because the 1" bit will leave a little indent at the center and it's easy to line up the smaller bit in that, and get it dead center

practice is a good thing, and mark the stop on your drill press so the next one will be super easy and perfect (just make sure the wood is the same thickness, 3/4" ply and 3/4 MDF" are rarely actually the same thickness)

also I get rid of the little foam washer thing in there so the button sits lower to the panel

on the right is the basic idea

[GaryMcT]

Thanks!  Yay for the drill press!  Actually, right after I complained to some friends that the drill press was a pain in the butt to put together, one of them mentioned that they have a full sized one that they put together but never used in their garage that I can have!  Well, I guess I'll have to two of 'em soon then.

[GaryMcT]

What's the best way to transfer scale drawings from paper onto wood/mdf?  So far I've poked holes through the hole centers to make marks on the wood, which isn't so accurate.

[bkenobi]

tape the paper template to your work piece and drill right through it.  You could also mark the centers and remove the paper if you want. 

Remember, this is an arcade made out of wood.  You only need to be as accurate as your eyes will see, not as accurate as a micrometer can measure.  The pencil mark is ~.5mm and your printer isn't exactly accurate.  The tolerance stack up could add up to more than a mm.  I doubt you will be that accurate with your drill press centering, so your drilling will introduce more error than the template.

Also, remember that when these were originally made, they used templates and jigs.  When you saw them in the arcade (as a conversion) some jack ass took a drill and punched a new set of holes into the CP wherever he wanted.

Close is more than good enough!   

[GaryMcT]

I tried taping the paper on and drilling right through for my first prototype.  The paper tears all over the place, at least with the full forstner bit.  Maybe drilling tiny guide holes through the paper is the way to go?  My results are so imprecise so far that it's blatantly obvious.

[Ginsu Victim]

I just took a small drill bit and made guide holes through the paper. Then I removed the paper and drilled. Also, I've taken a hammer before and tapped a nail or screw to make the guide mark.

[bkenobi]

If I remember correctly, I used an automatic center punch in combination with a paper template.  It can be difficult to locate the dimple, so I suggest marking it with a sharpie dot as you carefully take off the template.  That way you have a visible mark to locate the hole, but a precise dimple to start your drill in.

There's lots of ways to skin a cat.  The important thing is getting rid of the cat.   

[massive88]

I tried taping the paper on and drilling right through for my first prototype.  The paper tears all over the place, at least with the full forstner bit.  Maybe drilling tiny guide holes through the paper is the way to go?  My results are so imprecise so far that it's blatantly obvious.

If your layout is in cad, what I did was put some very small circles in the center of my button circles.  Those I would then punch through the paper with a ball point pen, then line up the paper on the wood and mark on the wood with a felt tip through the hole once overlayed.

Then it was just a matter of lining up my drill on each marked center spot on the wood.

Maybe not exact, but pretty easy and effective.

[GaryMcT]

I tried taping the paper on and drilling right through for my first prototype.  The paper tears all over the place, at least with the full forstner bit.  Maybe drilling tiny guide holes through the paper is the way to go?  My results are so imprecise so far that it's blatantly obvious.

If your layout is in cad, what I did was put some very small circles in the center of my button circles.  Those I would then punch through the paper with a ball point pen, then line up the paper on the wood and mark on the wood with a felt tip through the hole once overlayed.

Then it was just a matter of lining up my drill on each marked center spot on the wood.

Maybe not exact, but pretty easy and effective.

They are in Sketchup. .close enough.   I already have crosses at the center of the buttons, so I'll give that a try.

[Ginsu Victim]

Those I would then punch through the paper with a ball point pen, then line up the paper on the wood and mark on the wood with a felt tip through the hole once overlayed.

Then it was just a matter of lining up my drill on each marked center spot on the wood.

Maybe not exact, but pretty easy and effective.

I've done this, but it usually led to my holes being slightly off from one another. Not always, though.

[GaryMcT]

Yeah, if I don't figure out this crimping tool soon, I'm going to set the building on fire.

[bkenobi]

Crimping can be frustrating until you figure it out.  If you crimp too hard, you snap the wires.  If you don't crimp hard enough, the terminals slide off.  You also have to get the wires in the right spot so they will be trapped and not destroyed.

I found that if I stripped 2x the length I needed in the terminal, then I could twist the wire, fold it in half, and insert the bent tip in the terminal opening.  When I crimped, I made sure that the folded wire was flat so the wire will sorta straddle the crimped in part.  I don't know if that makes sense or not.

[Kman-Sweden]

You could strip then twist the wire, then put some solder on it -THEN crimp. Lots of FUN extra work. It'll hold better.

What kind of crimping tool do you use? I have a real cheap one and I usually crimp two times.
Once on striped wire and the again further out over insulated wire. Am I making any sense?

[Ginsu Victim]

Makes sense to me. That's what I do (minus the soldering).

[GaryMcT]

So it's generally a good idea to have the transition from stripped wire to wire about halfway through the narrow bit that you crimp?

I'm going to probably go buy a better crimper also.

[bkenobi]

I tried tinning the wires (soldering), but that made the wire brittle and tended to break at the end of the tinned section.  One thing I forgot to mention is that I made sure that there was some insulated portion inserted near the end of the terminal for the crimper to grab onto.  If you don't do that, then the wire will be taking all the stress and I found it would break REALLY easily.

[GaryMcT]

How does this look for a nice crimping tool?  This place is right down the road from me:

http://shop.vetcosurplus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_42&products_id=1030

[Ginsu Victim]

$30 seems high, but it looks better than the one I use. Grab this if you don't have one: LINK

[GaryMcT]

I have a stripper, but it isn't nearly as bad-ass as that one.

[Ginsu Victim]

I got my QwikStrip at Walmart for $13. It has been one of my favorite tools ever.

[Kman-Sweden]

How does this look for a nice crimping tool?  This place is right down the road from me:

http://shop.vetcosurplus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=36_42&products_id=1030

That one would probably last you a life time..

[bkenobi]

Just make sure you have the right size for your connectors.  Those 3 dots are color coded, so you should be good with that one.  If you get a cheaper one, make sure it has the color code you are using for your connector or else it won't work (at least not as well).

DEFINITELY get a decent cable stripper.  I have one that's rotated from that one, but it does the same thing.  Don't even try using the old school ones.  These new ones can strip any sized cable with zero adjustments.  I don't know how the old school guys lived without these.

[GaryMcT]

By the way, the Ultrastik works GREAT for Sinistar!

[GaryMcT]

With a 7 button layout like mine, which row do you guys use for 1-3 button games?  I can't decide between the bottom row, which is nice because there are no buttons in the way below it, or the top row because of the extra wrist support. Just curious.

[Ginsu Victim]

I use the bottom row.

456
123
     7

I don't like to reach to the top row for games that only use a few buttons, plus I've noticed my guests always assume the bottom row is the correct one.

[Bender]

Gary,

I have that crimper and I think it's awesome. It ratchets down to the desired crimp strength then releases. If you plan on doing more than one panel, and I know you do, I think it's worth it
It has fine tune adjustments so you can get just the pressure you want

they make a nice automatic wire stripper that is pretty handy too! never mind Ginsu already linked to it (I was reading through too quick)

there is a program cfgmagition in the software forum that is awesome and allows you to map the number of buttons any way you like and it applies it all the roms with that # of buttons ( or other opptions too like neo geo)

So I have mine set up like this
but the cool thing about the program is you can customize it to your hearts content
and I use LEDblinky to light up the appropriate buttons

 xxx
 xx1
x       1 button games

 xxx
 x12
x        2 button

 xxx
 123
x        3 button

 x12
 x34   
x        4 button (Non neo geo)

 xxx
 234
1        neo geo

 1x2
 345   
x        5 button

 123
 456
x        6 button

 xxx
 12x
x        spinner/trackball games (because of the placement of the spinner /trackball)

ect.

[Ginsu Victim]

there is a program cfgmagition in the software forum that is awesome and allows you to map the number of buttons any way you like and it applies it all the roms with that # of buttons ( or other opptions too like neo geo)

CFG Magician
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=88948.0

[Ginsu Victim]

Bender, that's some weird mapping you've got there.

[Bender]

you mean the 1st 2? and the spinner?

the rest are pretty standard, no?

[Ginsu Victim]

xxx
 xx1
x       1 button games

 xxx
 x12
x        2 button

 x12
 x34   
x        4 button (Non neo geo)

These are the weird ones to me.

[Bender]

my thinking on the 1 and 2 button games is that the buttons on the old games were pretty far from the joystick so I was trying to replicate that, and it feels really good to me

yeah the 4 button non neo geo I'm not sure about.
In the limited research I did, I saw some original cp's espcially 4 button fighters set up that way
or do you just mean that there shifted away from the joystick?

how would you do the 4 button layout?

and there are also a few that I've customized on an individual game basis
examples:

star wars has 4 buttons and I set those up neo geo style
tron I have my top fire button mapped as button 1 as well as one on the CP

[bkenobi]

I have mine set up differently apparently.  I have them wired as follows:

  5 6 7
  2 3 4
1

I use the bottom row for 1-4 button games and they are very comfortable.  I do use cfgMagician to modify my mappings for 5 and 6 button games though.  For those I use:

6 button:
  1 2 3
  4 5 6
x

5 button:
  1 2 3
  4 2 5
x

My layout is arched, so the lower middle SF button (wired button 3) is about where the middle button is on MK in it's 5 button config.  I have the top and bottom button mapped to the same since, as I recall, that's block.  That way if I hit the wrong button it doesn't really matter.  The alternative would have been:

  1 x 2
  3 4 5
x

I also use CPWizard to show what's what, so there should be no confusion for guests either.

[Ginsu Victim]

how would you do the 4 button layout?

Either Neo Geo style, or

 34X
 12X
X

For my layout, it would be:
Neo Geo
123
     4

Non-Neo Geo
34X
12X
     X

[Bender]

Gary,
sorry for the slight hijack, but there is some good info here
great to see how other people set up there button layouts

Ginsu,

thanks, I think I'm going to go with neo geo for most 4 button games except fighters. For those aren't 1,2 on the top row and 3,4 on the bottom
again for me it's more comfortable to have the buttons further away from the joystick so that's why I have them shifted to the right

bkenobi,

mine is arched too, the 5 button SF layout works very well

[Malenko]

I prefer bender's way. it covers SO many configs pretty closely without being frankenpanelly.  in addition to what he posted, I use 123 from the neo geo layout for games like NBA Jam, the 1 button is perfect for turbo

[Ginsu Victim]

Ginsu,

thanks, I think I'm going to go with neo geo for most 4 button games except fighters. For those aren't 1,2 on the top row and 3,4 on the bottom
again for me it's more comfortable to have the buttons further away from the joystick so that's why I have them shifted to the right

Well, I was only giving my opinion based on how I play. The most important thing is that you play however it is most comfortable for you. However, if you have a lot of guests playing your cab, take them into consideration, too.

[GaryMcT]

Gary,
sorry for the slight hijack, but there is some good info here
great to see how other people set up there button layouts

Ginsu,

thanks, I think I'm going to go with neo geo for most 4 button games except fighters. For those aren't 1,2 on the top row and 3,4 on the bottom
again for me it's more comfortable to have the buttons further away from the joystick so that's why I have them shifted to the right

bkenobi,

mine is arched too, the 5 button SF layout works very well

Bender, I think your layout is just about perfect for me.  I want the buttons to be as far right as possible to be comfortable.  I'm still unsure of top row or bottom row when there is a choice.  I may extend my control panel out a bit on the bottom so that there is more wrist space for the bottom row (if that doesn't look too ghetto.)

[GaryMcT]

Dangit, I'm starting to think that I really want lit buttons.  had my brother-in-law over playing today. . would have been nice not to have to explain the buttons for every game.

[Ginsu Victim]

The feel and sound of lit buttons are a definite issue. They tend to feel brittle and have a hollow sound (and some squeak). I was not a fan of them myself and removed them.

[Bender]

yeah, I wasn't sure at first about them cause I'd seen so many people with these epileptic causing animations that just turned me off
but I keep mine very simple and the look pretty nice when off, and now I can't imagine not having them

I got the happ transparent ones and the feel and sound is the same as regular happs button to me
I do have one that squeeks but I think that can easily be fixed(but I've heard of squeeking just as much from regular buttons)

but if you really want to go nuts check out what Ond and Franco came up with


But I really like the buttons to light up the color they actually were on the original game, just so cool and no confusion

[Ginsu Victim]

Even the Happ Translucents feel brittle to me. It's the plastic used.

[Bender]

wierd, if anything mine feel soft

might be the micro-leafs, maybe?

[GaryMcT]

Oh dear, I didn't realize that LEDBlinky had a database of the buttons colors for all the games!  Oh man that is cool.

[Malenko]

I might try white buttons lit up the way franco did it, but with multi colored LEDs so I can switch the "highlight color"  I had translucent buttons before I didnt like them at all.

[GaryMcT]

Getting a friend to come over and playtest on the latest proto control panel this weekend.  Can't wait!

And CFG Magician is a life saver!

Setting up GameEx now. . .looks like there are multiple U360 plugins for it. . any recommendations?

[GaryMcT]

Ugh. . one of my U360s doesn't work after upgrading the firmware.  Here's the thread if you know how to help:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=94930.0

thanks!

[GaryMcT]

Got them both working.

Is it true that the shift functionality on the U360 is different than on the IPAC?  Seems like you always get button 8 when you are using it to shift to something else.  On the IPAC, it waits until you release to send button 8 only if you haven't hit something else.  Does that sound correct?

[protokatie]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

[GaryMcT]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

Would that make all of your buttons light up in your case?

[protokatie]

I don't use lit-up buttons (my front end shows a pic of the buttons used for each selected game). I'm sure you could configure the program you are using to light the buttons to do it that way, or only light up the button you intend them to use. Are you hell bent on using light up buttons? They do look really cool, but I have shied away from them as I doubt they would bring me back to the "old days".

[GaryMcT]

I don't use lit-up buttons (my front end shows a pic of the buttons used for each selected game). I'm sure you could configure the program you are using to light the buttons to do it that way, or only light up the button you intend them to use. Are you hell bent on using light up buttons? They do look really cool, but I have shied away from them as I doubt they would bring me back to the "old days".

I don't have them now, but I might get them eventually.  I like the idea of a guest being able to look down and see which buttons are active for a game.

[GaryMcT]

Got them both working.

Is it true that the shift functionality on the U360 is different than on the IPAC?  Seems like you always get button 8 when you are using it to shift to something else.  On the IPAC, it waits until you release to send button 8 only if you haven't hit something else.  Does that sound correct?

bumpity bump bump

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, seems like I may have to do sonething about the lack of wrist space on my control panel. The only options that I can think of are to go down to less buttons, or have a small extension at the front of the control panel. Whadya think?  Anyway to extend without looking crappy?

[Ginsu Victim]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

I've done this on a few games. Whenever I get around to running CFG Magician, I'll be sure to set it up that way. Thanks for the reminder.

[GaryMcT]

CFG Magician is great!  Only thing that I've had to tweak in name after using it is:

1) the global player 1 right stick (robotron etc)
2) 0 button games use the right stick for me. I should mahe a new text file fir those and submit it.

I couldn't get it to read the u360 when setting up the mappings though. Would need that to work for both of these, or i'd need to stop being lazy and figure out what the "scan codes" are called for the u360 directions.

[Bender]

Gary,

can you post a picture of the cab?(the area around the cp) then we might have some better suggestions about the design

also in led blinky you can set it to light up just what you want so if you do map more buttons to the same function you can have them all light up or just one

what exactly are you doing with the U360's and cfg magician? never did anything with the joystick in there

[Bender]

it's a defender cab right?
with the coin door so close to the CP it limits what you can do

but if you only need another inch or so I'd do something like this and wrap t-moulding around the front edge of the cp
I know the cp has a slight angle(this is just a couple min. sketch-up mock up)

[GaryMcT]

The original panel had 3/4" t-molding in the front.  If it goes around the side like you are shotn it might look just fine for it to stick out  a couple inches.

thanks!

I'll build a proto and see how that works.

[bkenobi]

As long as you have no controls out on that pad, you can do whatever you want.  If you have controls out there, then you have to worry about enclosing the bottoms of the controls with something. 

Oh, and if you make the extension very long, make sure you use good quality 3/4" MDF or thicker so there's no chance of breaking it off when that yellow truck from RC Pro/Am cheats and you slam your fist on the CP in disgust that your missile missed him somehow.   

[GaryMcT]

As long as you have no controls out on that pad, you can do whatever you want.  If you have controls out there, then you have to worry about enclosing the bottoms of the controls with something. 

Oh, and if you make the extension very long, make sure you use good quality 3/4" MDF or thicker so there's no chance of breaking it off when that yellow truck from RC Pro/Am cheats and you slam your fist on the CP in disgust that your missile missed him somehow.   

Sweet. . I didn't want it to turn out ugly. . that's why the t-molding solution makes me happy!

Any reason to not use plywood instead of MDF since it's all going to be covered up?  I haven't done the joystick routing in plywood yet, so that may be a mess.

Managed to get my ATI 4800 card working with soft15kHz tonight!  I'm still puzzled as to why turning on triple buffering would cause sound sync problems for Pacman, etc.

[OC_Ryan]

Hey Gary,

I'm working with the same size CP and I was going to see what you came up with before I drilled out my holes in my CP. You have any pictures of your finished control panel? Maybe along with visio or any other type of diagrams with some measurements? It would sure ease a lot of the pain for me!

Thanks,
Oliver

[GaryMcT]

Hey Gary,

I'm working with the same size CP and I was going to see what you came up with before I drilled out my holes in my CP. You have any pictures of your finished control panel? Maybe along with visio or any other type of diagrams with some measurements? It would sure ease a lot of the pain for me!

Thanks,
Oliver

I have sketchup files.  Mine isn't done yet though, but I can give you what I have.  I think I'm likely to move the thumb button down a bit, and add a 2 or 3 inch lip on the front to give more palm space.  I'll put up the sketchup file later along with a picture of the latest prototype.  I think the last picture up here is where it is at right now with the two changes that I mentioned.

[GaryMcT]

Here's the current sketchup file:

home.comcast.net/~g.mctaggart/defender custom control panel9.skp

Might want to ignore two buttons at the top. . those were there as a test to see how useful the slot where the Defender joystick fits in would be for putting some buttons.  Not so good.  Things that are going to change beyond this:

1) The thumb buttons are moving lower
2) There will be tiny admin buttons on the top row that can fit in 3/4" wood/MDF without sticking out the bottom since there is no clearance for anything up there.
3) There will be a 2" or 3" lip on the front to give more wrist space. . there isn't enough as there is, and it falls in a really bad spot on my hand.
4) The panel height is actually a bit short here. . . this is the height of the bottom of the panel, where the top is 1/8" taller.  I made it shorter for the prototyping so that I don't have to deal with the angled cut or route.

I'm going to start on a new prototype soon with all these changes soon if you want to wait.

[GaryMcT]

I'm excited!  I'm quickly getting to the point where playing games on my machine doesn't drive me crazy!

I fixed triple buffering in D3D with Mame.  It was waiting on vsync even though it didn't need to with triple buffering.  This makes all the audio sync problems with triple buffering go away!   I don't know how to fix it with ddraw yet (or if it can be fixed).  I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

The only thing visually that I need to fix now is to:
1) fix a few resolutions here and there that aren't good. . mostly the ones that are letterboxed for vertical games.  I plan on having a vertical cab for these in the long term, but I should be able to do something better for now.
2) fix the desktop 800x600 mode that went south when I used soft15khz. . . need to figure out what the modeline is for that.  The one that the vidcard had in the fiirst place was fine.
3) possibly set up a 1024x768 interlaced mode?  I think d9500 supports that. . not entirely sure.
4) fix the pixel centers in D3D mode.  It shouldn't be too hard to get the pixels to line up exactly like the do in ddraw.  I may have to do this if I can't figure out how to triple buffer properly in ddraw.

Now onto the next control panel prototype!!!!    Errr, more like on to Robotron for tonight.

[GaryMcT]

OK, so my patch for fixing sound-syncing with triple-buffering isn't a 100% improvement.  You still get some occasional tearing.  I'm definitely using it as it's better than sound not syncing.

Here's the thread I started about this with the diffs:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=95005.0

[dirkomatic]

I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

Umm...  What's wrong with Linux?  Mine runs great!

[bkenobi]

The only problem with plywood is that it can splinter and tear.  If you use MDF (or any particle board for that matter), you will get a nice clean cut/routed/sanded surface.  If you go with plywood, make sure you use a backer board when you drill.  If you don't, you will end up with some sever blow out on the back side that will be difficult to deal with.

As for the t-molding slots, I've seen cabs that use plywood and the channel looks fine.  I used MDF for mine and it works fine that way too.

[GaryMcT]

I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

Umm...  What's wrong with Linux?  Mine runs great!

I'll still try Linux. I have too many other things to do with this machine right now to get Linux working. I haven't used Linux since college (which was a long time ago at this point!)

if you have pointers on builds that have support for the fb driver or svgalib for modern cards like the ATI 4800, or tips on howto build the kernel for those drivers, I'd be happy to hear. I installed Fedora to try AdvanceMame and haven't gotten it to run because of this.

Do you use AdvanceMame?

[dirkomatic]

I use SDLMame on Ubuntu with a GeForce card.  I'm not sure whatI'd have to do to get it working with a real arcade monitor....

[GaryMcT]

I use SDLMame on Ubuntu with a GeForce card.  I'm not sure whatI'd have to do to get it working with a real arcade monitor....

I'm using a Wells Gardner D9500 monitor.

I guess I need to read up on SDLMame.

[GaryMcT]

So after I finally have a final control panel, do I just use a router to cut out the Lexan to put on top of it?

[protokatie]

Measure 15 times and cut once with that. You could clamp the lexan to the CP and use the holes you already drilled as the template/guide for the drill press tho.

[Bender]

So after I finally have a final control panel, do I just use a router to cut out the Lexan to put on top of it?

yes, just clamp it down and use a flush trim bit. I also do the holes with that bit too, you just have to drill a hole in the center big enough for you bit to fit into
this method ensures perfect line up of the lexan and the CP (those small button holes might be to small unless you have a 1/4 flush trim bit)

[GaryMcT]

Actually from the back with a 1" fostner bit in your new drill press
you drill about 5/8 into the plywood but obviously not all the way through(the buttons only have like a 1/8" thread on them) then the .52" hole centered inside the 1" hole
it is easier to do it in this order because the 1" bit will leave a little indent at the center and it's easy to line up the smaller bit in that, and get it dead center

practice is a good thing, and mark the stop on your drill press so the next one will be super easy and perfect (just make sure the wood is the same thickness, 3/4" ply and 3/4 MDF" are rarely actually the same thickness)

also I get rid of the little foam washer thing in there so the button sits lower to the panel

on the right is the basic idea

This works like a charm, and is surprisingly easy!  YAY drill press!!!   I have a lock washer with it, but I don't see a foam washer.

When I get to the lexan, do I cut it to be .52"-ish, or should it surround the whole button?

Also, I had a big "duh" moment. . . when I finally get a plywood control panel that I'm happy with, can I just use it as a template to route an MDF one?

[Bender]

yeah, just like the lexan. once you have a template it's pretty easy after that just rough cut the next piece a little bigger than copy with the flush trim bit. done and done!

those small buggers are the exception I didn't think of a lexan cover, humm...


-time passes-


OK, this may be easier than I though. I think I'd drill a .52 hole in the lexan and drill the 1" hole all the way through the MDF and just tighten the button down to the lexan, so the button will actually only be connected to the lexan (this way will also definitely make sure you have enough room underneath)

or you could cut out the diameter of the button face and have it sit below the lexan, but I don't think that would look as nice

the foam bit on mine were black and snugged up against the bottom of the back lip of the button face above where the threads end, it's a bit hard to see but it gives you another 1/16"ish space available to clamp down

[GaryMcT]

yeah, just like the lexan. once you have a template it's pretty easy after that just rough cut the next piece a little bigger than copy with the flush trim bit. done and done!

those small buggers are the exception I didn't think of a lexan cover, humm...


-time passes-


OK, this may be easier than I though. I think I'd drill a .52 hole in the lexan and drill the 1" hole all the way through the MDF and just tighten the button down to the lexan, so the button will actually only be connected to the lexan (this way will also definitely make sure you have enough room underneath)

or you could cut out the diameter of the button face and have it sit below the lexan, but I don't think that would look as nice

the foam bit on mine were black and snugged up against the bottom of the back lip of the button face above where the threads end, it's a bit hard to see but it gives you another 1/16"ish space available to clamp down

That makes perfect sense!  I'll go ahead and do it how you original suggested doing it for the prototypes since I won't have the Lexan at hand.

Here's a new version of the layout.  Starting to try to figure out where to put admin buttons, coin buttons, start buttons:



The buttons at the top are actually the tiny circles. . the other circles are there to know where to cut the bigger holes on the underside.  The buttons are, from left to right:

exit         coin1 start1         pause ffwd      coin2 start2

I'm pretty sure ffwd could go away and just have a pause there.  I could probably do this instead:

              coin1 start1         pause exit      coin2 start2

since the buttons are hard to push and not have the button at the left.  I don't know if visitors are ever going to use ffwd, if not, then I can use a shifted combo for that.  Heck, I might even be able to get away with visitors never pausing.  Do others find that visitors want to pause?

Also note that it is actually a couple inches taller than this. . I haven't represented that in the drawing yet.  I have to still figure out how much taller.  The current prototype that I'm working on is really darn tall so that I can cut it down until it is right.

So are the U360 shift modes really messed up, or is it just me?  Seems like you always get the shift button to register its own keypress along with the other button that you hit.  This is different than the IPAC, which is kind of a bummer.  I'm not likely to use the U360 for shifting if this is the case.  I'll just do all shifting off of the little buttons at the top and have them all go throug the IPAC.

[bkenobi]

Your latest proposed setup looks identical to mine (without the button to the left).  I have P1 coin, P1 start....Pause, Exit.....P2 coin, P2 start
and then the same joystick and SF/NeoGeo config as you.  The only difference is that I'm using LS-30s whereas you have U360's.  I've had mine up and running for a couple years and I really like it.

Btw, you don't really need a dedicated fast forward button.  Since you will only need it in MAME, you can just map multiple buttons to that.  For instance, P1Start + P1Right could be FF and P1Start + P1Up could be TAB.  It's up to you, but you certainly don't need these extra buttons unless you really like them.

[GaryMcT]

Your latest proposed setup looks identical to mine (without the button to the left).  I have P1 coin, P1 start....Pause, Exit.....P2 coin, P2 start
and then the same joystick and SF/NeoGeo config as you.  The only difference is that I'm using LS-30s whereas you have U360's.  I've had mine up and running for a couple years and I really like it.

Btw, you don't really need a dedicated fast forward button.  Since you will only need it in MAME, you can just map multiple buttons to that.  For instance, P1Start + P1Right could be FF and P1Start + P1Up could be TAB.  It's up to you, but you certainly don't need these extra buttons unless you really like them.

Cool!  Nice to see that you have a very similar layout and it's working for you!   I dig the Neo Geo colors on the bottom row.  I'm likely to eventually do the RGB lit button thing with the clear buttons. . would be neat to see those colors there when playing Neo Geo games.

So if you map P1Start + P1Right to FF, does it avoid sending a P1Start command when you do that?  Does that make it so that the P1Start command doesn't happen until you let go of the P1Start button?  That's how I hoped the U360 would work.  My setup is a bit discombobulated right now so I can't try it out.

[GaryMcT]

Bender, what's the control panel surface on Benderama?  Not lexan with some artwork underneath?

[Bender]

yeah FF should be a shifted button and concidering the size limitations maybe even the pause button could be shifted too
I know I said earlier that you could get those small buttons pretty close, on that latest layout it even scares me to have the exit and pause 1/4 inch away from a gameplay button, so how about one of these, just feels better IMO

[GaryMcT]

yeah FF should be a shifted button and concidering the size limitations maybe even the pause button could be shifted too
I know I said earlier that you could get those small buttons pretty close, on that latest layout it even scares me to have the exit and pause 1/4 inch away from a gameplay button, so how about one of these, just feels better IMO

I agree completely. . I think I'll go with option #1 and assume that exit is the only thing that I need an explicit button for on top of the coin and start buttons.

[Bender]

The benderama has a polycarbonate film over art printed on adhesive vinyl no plexi or acrylic cause I have a curved front to the panel (no edges digging into my wrist) and I don't remember a lot of plexi covered cp's in the arcade

[GaryMcT]

Do you have a link for the type of polycarbonate film that you used?  Maybe I should do that instead of Lexan.  How thick is the film?  Is it the sort of thing that you just stick on and then use a utility knife to cut out using the control panel as a template?

I'm thinking that my artwork is going to be something very derivative of the original Defender control panel to keep things looking original-ish.  Hmm, come to think of it, the original control panel has a thing sheet of plastic over it. . it's so gunked out that it's hard to tell how it's supposed to be really attached on there.

I like the idea of a curve on the front for something completely scratch.  Way way better than having a big ass overhang on the front to keep from having the corner hit your wrist. 

[Bender]

the film I have is 10mil I think the stuff they use at MameMarquees is 7mil plenty thick

[GaryMcT]

Yes?



So the polycarbonate is still thin enough to still be able to leave 1/8" in the MDF/wood for the tiny buttons to mount?

[GaryMcT]

I think after this prototype gets built, I'm going to have to start working on the routing for the joystick on the top.

[Bender]

Just to make your life more difficult a couple of things to think about

1. if you go with film as a CPO then you want to bottom mount the joystick, otherwise you can't get at it again, plus imperfections in the surface (the edges that you route out for example can show through the film as little bumps or ridges

2. after you get the prototype CP layed out the way you like, then design your art around that. Then get the art, attach it to the panel, then and only then should you drill the button holes other wise it is next to impossible to get the art around the buttons to line up perfectly

[GaryMcT]

Just to make your life more difficult a couple of things to think about

1. if you go with film as a CPO then you want to bottom mount the joystick, otherwise you can't get at it again, plus imperfections in the surface (the edges that you route out for example can show through the film as little bumps or ridges

2. after you get the prototype CP layed out the way you like, then design your art around that. Then get the art, attach it to the panel, then and only then should you drill the button holes other wise it is next to impossible to get the art around the buttons to line up perfectly

Ugh!!!  So Benderama has a bottom-mounted U360?   Did you end up using a longer stick to compensate?  (Wow, something seems really really wrong with that sentence. )  Not being able to get to the U360 would be bad.  I already need to take one of 'em out, take it apart, and put it back together in hopes of getting it to calibrate itself properly.

This is going to take me a while.

[Bender]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

[bkenobi]

I haven't had too many problems with hitting quit instead of pause, but that's probably because I'm the only one who uses the pause button.  My primary concern was keeping the players start/coin buttons separate from the 2 admin buttons as well as making it work with my artwork choices (groups of 2 buttons of a given distance apart).  If it were a big problem, I would probably write a script of some kind to only send quit if you held down the quit button for a couple seconds.

As for the FF question, yes it does send the other buttons too.  BUT, FF is only needed at the beginning or when you are already in the game and have started P1 anyway.  I have P1 Start + P1 Up mapped to menu (TAB) and that could be a problem.  HOWEVER, if you are going into the menu, you aren't really concerned about playing ATM anyway, so it's not an issue IMO.

[GaryMcT]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

Did you use something like the joystick mounting kit here to keep anything from poking out the top?

http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html#mountingkits

This routing job looks actually easier than the top mount. . . exciting!

[GaryMcT]

I haven't had too many problems with hitting quit instead of pause, but that's probably because I'm the only one who uses the pause button.  My primary concern was keeping the players start/coin buttons separate from the 2 admin buttons as well as making it work with my artwork choices (groups of 2 buttons of a given distance apart).  If it were a big problem, I would probably write a script of some kind to only send quit if you held down the quit button for a couple seconds.

As for the FF question, yes it does send the other buttons too.  BUT, FF is only needed at the beginning or when you are already in the game and have started P1 anyway.  I have P1 Start + P1 Up mapped to menu (TAB) and that could be a problem.  HOWEVER, if you are going into the menu, you aren't really concerned about playing ATM anyway, so it's not an issue IMO.

I could possibly modify Mame to be able to do something special for shift buttons such that their primary function doesn't trigger doesn't happen until you let go and only if it were never used for anything else.

[Bender]

I actually used the U-track mounts (they worked so well when installing the trackball I ordered some more special from Andy at Ultimarc) but those should work too as long as the insert isn't longer than 1/4" so the 5mm ones should work (if they were are tiny bit longer you could always grind or sand them down)
I drilled all the way through for the inserts then put the joystick in then bondoed the tiny divits that were left on top

I cut the polycarbonate film with an x-acto knife (very carefully of course)

here is a visual representation for what I'm talking about with the Top Vs Bottom mount distance. The top mount you loose 3/16 and bottom mount 1/4 a very negligible 1/16 more for the bottom mount and it's a lot easier to do IMO, though if you do bottom mounted AND did a lexan CPO you'd loose another 1/8 then you might want to think about the longer shaft

[Bender]

Yes?



So the polycarbonate is still thin enough to still be able to leave 1/8" in the MDF/wood for the tiny buttons to mount?

sorry missed that post it was 3:15 am for me

but yes it's thin enough to leave 1/8" of material for the buttons

the layout looks perfect!

[GaryMcT]

Oh man. . .the router is fun!   I think I could route on pieces of wood for hours.  Also, bottom mounting is extra awesome since my route there doesn't have to be neat.

If you had to have an angled side like this:



could you get a router bit to do that with a straight edge?  It's about a 24 degree angle from my measurement form my original one.

[Bender]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

[bkenobi]

There's one other way to do the angled cut if you are not able to do it with a table/circular saw.  I don't recommend it because it's truly a PITA!  But, you can use a belt sander and a couple lines marked on the top and bottom of your work piece. 

I did this for one part of my cabinet that was too narrow to use my circular saw on.  I should have cut things in a different order, but once it was cut, it was too late.  I actually marked to two lines and then clamped a couple sacrificial boards in place to make sure I was perfectly straight.  This took WAY too long compared to having the right tool/cutting in the right order.  It will work in a pinch though.

[GaryMcT]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

Hmmm, I may have to try that.  I'm not sure that I'm ready to invest in a table saw quite yet.  Maybe I should stick with leaving that bit off for now.

[GaryMcT]

There's one other way to do the angled cut if you are not able to do it with a table/circular saw.  I don't recommend it because it's truly a PITA!  But, you can use a belt sander and a couple lines marked on the top and bottom of your work piece. 

I did this for one part of my cabinet that was too narrow to use my circular saw on.  I should have cut things in a different order, but once it was cut, it was too late.  I actually marked to two lines and then clamped a couple sacrificial boards in place to make sure I was perfectly straight.  This took WAY too long compared to having the right tool/cutting in the right order.  It will work in a pinch though.

Don't have a belt sander!  (Yet!)

I sense a table saw in my future.

[GaryMcT]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

This one looks like it ships faster:

http://www.amazon.com/85299M-Diameter-64-Inch-Carbide-Chamfer/dp/B000GY9UW4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1249634478&sr=8-2

Good?

I think tomorrow may very well be the day where I actually try to cut a straight line using the router.   I'm out of plywood now, so I may start in on the MDF as well.

[Bender]

yeah, that bit should do it the cutting depth is 59/64 so you should be good for 3/4 stock

do you know anyone with a table saw? I'd cut a few blanks then go use someone's table saw to cut that exact angle on them

you'll have fun with MDF it routes much nicer than plywood (just wear a respirator or at the very least a dust mask the dust is no good for you)

[GaryMcT]

YAY for the local stores!  Found one of these:

http://www.prontohome.com/compare/amana-49410-22-1-2-10305089456

at a local shop:

http://www.eastsidesaw.com/

My wife is picking it up now so that I can have more fun with the router tonight.

[GaryMcT]

Having a great time working on this!

I got the 22.5 degree chamfer bit.  Works perfectly!  I was also very happy to find that the MDF that I bought isn't 2 feet wide, but instead 2' 7/16", which is exactly the width of the original control panel!  (I guess that wasn't by accident when they designed it originally).  Anyways, I can get more than 2 out of a single piece of MDF now.

I ended up using some buttons holes that came out really well in a plywood prototype as a template to clamp onto the MDF and use the drill press and forstner bit to cut holes in the MDF.  Here's the progress so far.  I wish it weren't after 10 or I'd try to finish up tonight!

[bkenobi]

Nice job with that chamfer, looks really nice.  Is it just me, or does the button pattern for P1 not line up with that of P2?  Maybe I just need some sleep, but I swear it looks twisted.

[GaryMcT]

Nice job with that chamfer, looks really nice.  Is it just me, or does the button pattern for P1 not line up with that of P2?  Maybe I just need some sleep, but I swear it looks twisted.

it is lined up, but doesn't look like it in the image. The perspective projection is making it look off

[GaryMcT]

Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder if I should round the front instead of using t-molding?  Might allow me to not have it so long in the front for palms. Yup, stealing more ideas from Bender. . Plus at this point any excuse to get a new router bit is a good thing. . My wife said that the mom and pop local shop that she picked the chamfer bit up from has a ridiculous selection of router bits. I know where I'm going this weekend!

[Bender]

nice work so far

can't say that was my idea, I'm sure I saw it on this forum and ripped it of just like the thousands of other idea I ripped from here

I'd try both and see which is more comfortable and looks best

it's so satisfying when it starts coming together by your own hand

I think we have antother addict

[GaryMcT]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

What size router bit did you use to route this?  Your corners are pretty sharp, or did you use something other than the router to get the corners?

[bkenobi]

Put a small radius on the front corners AND t-mold it.  Take a look at mine.  That's exactly what the original Area51 did and it works really well IMO.

[Bender]

I made a template out of a scrap of MDF and made the opening 1/8 bigger on both sides  (1/16 all the way around)
then used this template bushing and this bit

you can also get this and make perfect corners

[GaryMcT]

I picked up a 3/4" long 5/16" diameter pattern bit today to route the joystick cavities. I'll make a template for that when I get home.

Do you route the joystick cavity first and then drill the hole for the handle or vice versatile?  Any advantage to going either way?

[GaryMcT]

What's the best way to make the template for the joystick routing?  Router and clamped straight edge for each side?  I just failed miserably at making one out of plywood.  I think it's MDF for me from here on out.

[Bender]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

[GaryMcT]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

Hey that's a nice jig!

I finished making the joystick template out of 1/2" plywood a bit ago.  I marked the rectangle and used an angle clamped down once for each corner and template routed the template.  Certainly good enough for something on the backside of the panel.  I made the template such that the distance from one of the edges is the same as on the control panel to help with lining it up.

Next thing I did was to completely screw up the MDF prototype I was working on!  I don't know what I was thinking, but instead of just routing to the correct depth for the joystick, I decided to drill some starter holes all the way through. . ummmm, FAIL!!!!!!

I'll start over again tomorrow.  With all the templates and such building up, I'm getting faster at this at least.

[GaryMcT]

Looks like I can actually finish the one that I'm working on and have it be ugly where one of the joysticks is at.  That'll give me some more practice at least.

[bkenobi]

Yup, you will have to try a few times more than likely.  I did quite a few tries in plywood to get the button layout the way I liked it.  Then, when I was happy, I did MDF.  I was lucky that I didn't screw anything up too bad that I had to start over.  However, when I was done, I decided to sand the top of the CP with a belt sander for some stupid reason (the first time I picked up that tool mind you).  I converted a nice even surface into a horribly, uneven mess so that the paint wasn't going to look right.  I ended up having to put contact paper over it before I dropped on my lexan.  It gives the same effect, it's just not what I originally planned.

[GaryMcT]

Here are some progress pics, including my drill-through screw-up.  If I don't mess anything else up, hopefully I can get this one to the point of being playable tomorrow!

The JLW is there as a placeholder for a U360 that is in my previous prototype.

I went ahead and drill the screws all the way through until I get some of the ones that mount underneath.

You can see some errors from the template that I made, but I figure that's okay since this isn't visible.  I may end up making another template, but maybe not.

[Bender]

exexpt for the sarter holes
looks WAY better than my first try at routing a joystick cavity!

if you had to you could bondo those holes, but since one is where the screw goes I'd redo it, think of that as a practice one

does the hight of the joystick feel right?

[GaryMcT]

I think I may prefer the joystick this way than on the top actually.  I haven't had a chance to play on it yet, but from feeling it, it seems like it makes it easier to rest my hand on the control panel while using the joystick.

On a related note, I really can't play with an xbox 360 controller anymore. . . my hands are all tingly this morning from playing about 30 minutes last night!  I suspect my next project may very well be a 360 controller conversion.  Has anyone wired a U360 up to a hacked 360 controller yet for analog?

[Triangel7D]

Gary -- where did you get that red octagonal JLW restrictor? I didn't know such a thing existed! I'd love to get my hands on a couple of those.

[Triangel7D]

Wait. Figured it out. It's an Ultimarc product that's JLW compatible (hence my confusion), right? Sorry, should have dug around before I asked!

[GaryMcT]

Yup, that's the one!    I need to spend some time comparing them to the circular restrictors to figure out which one I want.

[Bender]

I think I may prefer the joystick this way than on the top actually.  I haven't had a chance to play on it yet, but from feeling it, it seems like it makes it easier to rest my hand on the control panel while using the joystick.

On a related note, I really can't play with an xbox 360 controller anymore. . . my hands are all tingly this morning from playing about 30 minutes last night!  I suspect my next project may very well be a 360 controller conversion.  Has anyone wired a U360 up to a hacked 360 controller yet for analog?

There is a company called Quasimodo or something like that that has done it I think they want big bucks for a panel that doesn't look like it would play very well, but the fact is it is possible
I've been wanting to do this for a long time and had some brief discussions with HarumaN (who does great x360 controler hacks)
anyway I feel like with the combined knowledge on this forum we should be able to get it done.
this may be a start
here is a review of the latest model, apparently the earlier ones did not work so well

maybe we should start a thread to recruit some help

already thinking about the next project are you?

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, I may be interested in getting involved with the "make 360 analog work with a U360" project.   I don't know if I'll be able to help much, but anyways.  Is there any sort of native analog out on the U360?  I remember seeing a pin in output mode that could be used as raw analog out, but the firmware doesn't do it I don't think.

Kinda bums me out not to be able to play with the xbox 360 controller more without hurting.  There's a whole lot of playtesting at work that I miss out of as a result.  Weird to work on a game and not play it much, you know?

Yeah, I'm getting addicted to this stuff.  I have a feeling a second control panel for my machine will happen before I'd personally do anything for the 360 (unless it already gets rolling by other folks).  I wouldn't mind having a single-player focused control panel with more variety on it.

So do other folks have problems getting the U360 to calibrate properly for them, or am I an exception?  One of mine works fairly reliably all the time, and the other one can't seem to calibrate itself.  When I was moving it from one control panel to the other, I plugged it in by itself thinking that I'd take it apart, put it back together, etc, to see if I could get it to calibrate.  It calibrated just fine.  Now that I have it back in a control panel again, it's always calibrating to the right a bit, which really doesn't work so well.

[GaryMcT]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. . the new layout is really great.  Just played some two-player with my wife.  The only problem so far is that now any time you end up using the right stick with your right hand (Robotron, Pacman if you map it on your right hand, etc.) you end up resting your hand on the player two thumb button.  I'll probably want to come up with a way to fix that.  Maybe the thumb button needs to be moved to the right a bit.  Not sure yet.

Once I get the exit/coin/start buttons hooked up, I'll likely get some friends to come over and playtest some two-player games.

Here are some progress pics (including my drill-through screwup and the channels to get wires to the exit/coin/start buttons):

[GaryMcT]

I *might* be able to help with the "make the U360 work with the xbox 360" project if I had the source code for the U360 firmware.  One thing I *can* do to help out with stuff like this is to program. 

[GaryMcT]

After playing more sped-up pacman, ms. pacman, and some Robotron, I think the layout may be fine like is.  I kinda suck bad when I rest my right hand on the control panel, and I do better when my hand is in the air.  Having the second player thumb button there may be a non-issue.

. . and the project for tomorrow is definitely to get my U360 that doesn't calibrate properly to work better.  Wish me luck!

[Bender]

lookin great! your getting good with that router, those channels are delicate and nicely done 

switch the PCB boards on the 2 u360's and if the problem migrates to the other joystick you might have a bad PCB just sent it back to Andy at ultimarc and he'll get you a new one

[GaryMcT]

Cool.  Since I have two U360s, I can definitely swap parts tonight until I figure out what part is bad.  I may also take pictures of the parts and reassembly since I think that would be useful to people.  I know I could have used that when I got mine!

On the XBox 360/U360 front, is there a simpler analog joystick that has a simpler output that could be converted to take the place of the wireles X360 controller analog stick?  I have some googling to do today.   I have an X360 controller that someone dropped and one of the buttons is kinda messed up. . . I may have to go ahead and take that apart and poke at the stick that is on there to see what it outputs if it is just a pot.

Hmmm, maybe we should start that thread soon!

[Bender]

yeah, i think if we can find out what kind of pot it's using it should be pretty easy from there

how do you test for that?

I have a couple already open

[GaryMcT]

I would set a multimeter for measure resistance (ohms), put the leads on either end, and move it around to see what the range is.  If you can match that range with something else, should be able to replace it.

[Bender]

found this on the interwebs
it says that the voltage range is from 0 to 1.61v

Part 1
Part 2

so now we have to find some analog stick that has the same range?

man, if that guy can build a tilt controller we should be able to add couple of analog sticks

[GaryMcT]

found this on the interwebs
it says that the voltage range is from 0 to 1.61v

Part 1
Part 2

so now we have to find some analog stick that has the same range?

man, if that guy can build a tilt controller we should be able to add couple of analog sticks

Fail on my part. . I was assuming that it is a potentiometer.

Might be worth looking at the Happ analog one to see what range it is in.  I'm so swamped with bugs right now at work that I can't even google it.

[Bender]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

[GaryMcT]

It probably does relate somehow.  I may go ahead and disassemble my broken one soon so that I can help out.

[GaryMcT]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

You probably want to measure the restistance (ohms) on the pot yourself with a multimeter.  Depending on what the range is, you'd need some outboard circuitry (or the optional amp) to map from the happ stick to what the x360 wants.

[GaryMcT]

Figured out the U360 problem!  If I swap magnets between the two, the problem migrates to the other joystick.  I'll bug Andy to send me another magnet.  I'll buy a restrictor or something though so that I'm paying for the shipping though since I don't know if I messed it up or if it came that way.

[KissMyWookie]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

[GaryMcT]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

I'm an electronics newby.  Is it likely that the circuit in the x360 controller is reading the voltage change, or the resistance change when reading the analog stick?

[Bender]

hey Gary,

I started a thread on the analog x360 thing here

now I'm wondering what actual control scheme would look like. What your ideal controller look like? two flight sticks? for me this would really be for FPS's

this is what I see is needed, am I missing anything?

4 analog axes

8 buttons (action)

3 admin buttons (back start guide)

4 direction d-pad or 4 more buttons

[GaryMcT]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

[KissMyWookie]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

I'm an electronics newby.  Is it likely that the circuit in the x360 controller is reading the voltage change, or the resistance change when reading the analog stick?

I'm not an expert (I just dabble in electronics), so someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

It's probably feeding the pot(s) with a regulated input (precisely fixed voltage), then measuring the output through an analog-to-digital converter (ADC). The return voltage will drop as the resistance increases.

Steve

[Bender]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

yeah, I was thinking 4 buttons (2 trigger and 2 thumb) on each flightstick and possibly a d-pad on one

and just the 3 admin buttons on the actual panel

[GaryMcT]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

yeah, I was thinking 4 buttons (2 trigger and 2 thumb) on each flightstick and possibly a d-pad on one

and just the 3 admin buttons on the actual panel

If I were doing this on a large enough control panel, I'd probably also want to put some regular buttons on the surface for games that don't use the right stick.  I think the thing that hurts me with gamepads is having to "claw" my hands.  I think a flight stick might actually have the same problem for me unfortunately.

I'm pleasantly surprised that playing arcade games with a ball-top U360 and a bunch of buttons is really ergonomic for me and I doesn't hurt me nearly as much as playing an FPS on a PC with a mouse and keyboard (mouse hand kills me) or playing on an X360 controller.

[Bender]

ahh, that's easy enough

[GaryMcT]

Got MaLa set up tonight.  Pretty darn nice!  The thing that stopped me with it the first time was not being able to import a text rom list for a favorites list.  Fortunately I found a thread on here with a workaround for importing mameui favorites files.  The Zebra theme is a really nice starting point.  I like having the marquee, cabinet, control panel, video all onscreen.

The only stuff I miss from GameEx so far is:

1) I like how you can use the stick in GameEx to navigate, and then hold down a "shift" button of sorts to navigate by page or by letter.  I'm not sure how to do that in GamEx with a gamepad input (U360).

Umm, well, that's a long list!

In the "I want features!" department, would be cool if the gamelists were stored in text files.  I end up writing lots of scripts to deal with stuff like that. . is really inconvenient for them to be in binary files.  Also would be really awesome if there were support for connecting directly to the emumovies ftp server (if you have an account) and getting all the relevant art fo the games that you have in your game lists.

I suppose I should post this over in the MaLa part of the forum.  I'll do that once I use it a bit more and see what else comes up.

So far I'm really happy with the level of configurability for the menus.  That seemed a bit painful in GameEx.

Also, can't wait for the magnet to show up for my second U360!  Andy says it'll be in the mail soon.

Still haven't wired up admin buttons. . been having too much fun playing when not screwing with frontend stuff.

[GaryMcT]

Back to GameEx. . MaLa was was too sluggish on input.  Going to use the QT framework (I think) to write my own frontend.  Not really planning on making it configurable enough for anyone else to use, but I can put the code out nonetheless.

Did a bit of work on making sense of the mame input system tonight. . pretty neat stuff!  Hopefully I'll figure out how to implement shift keys this weekend.

Was looking at my Defender control panel tonight.  I could almost play Defender on my two-player panel as it is if I were to mod the U360 base and make room for a reverse button in the same spot as it is on the Defender panel (relative to the left stick).  The thumb button on bottom-left two buttons on player two are pretty good for thurst, fire, and smart bomb.  Hyperspace and Inviso could be anywhere on the right side I suppose.  Whadya think?  I may be more likely to play Defender and Stargate (which I love to play) if I don't have to swap in another control panel to do it.  The extra button won't get in the way of my left hand I don't think.  Nutty?

[Bender]

That's the beauty of building your own
You make it exactly how YOU want it
it would be pretty east to mod the JLW(U360)base to fit that button in
Let me know if you need some help

[bkenobi]

If you are still using GameEx, you can set up a custom input to map your buttons how you want them.  That way you can have whatever button you want for the Alpha/Paging button.  I personally still use XPadder to remap my GP-Wiz to keyboard inputs, but you don't have to.

[GaryMcT]

If you are still using GameEx, you can set up a custom input to map your buttons how you want them.  That way you can have whatever button you want for the Alpha/Paging button.  I personally still use XPadder to remap my GP-Wiz to keyboard inputs, but you don't have to.

I think I'm using the default setup in GameEx for navigating the menus and I really like it. The mainproblem that I'm having with GameEx is that I don't lie havingto navigate to mame-only favorites every time I start it up. That's the menu I want most of the time. Any way you know of to fix that?

Also, I had a friend over navigating the GameEx menus and he got lost far too often and started a game instead of exiting a menu way too much. 

[GaryMcT]

That's the beauty of building your own
You make it exactly how YOU want it
it would be pretty east to mod the JLW(U360)base to fit that button in
Let me know if you need some help

What would you use to cut it?  Would you cut a hole, or get rid of a quadrant of the plate?  I'm assumin that you'd just lose one of the screws and mount with three?

I'll maybe do some drawings of this today if I either finish the mame shift button code mod today or get tired of coding. . If this plate mod is easy I could cut it and mod the proto this weekend!!!  I miss Defender.

[Bender]

I'd try really hard to get 4 screws on there some how (even if you have to make a new screw hole in the plate)
maybe rotate the joystick orientation the other way if that helps the location
I'd cut the metal plate with a drumel tool and if any area of the plastic had to be removed I'd use a fostner bit in the drill press

[GaryMcT]

Thanks for the info Bender!  I played Stargate and Defender as it is for a while today. . wasn't that bad actually.  The player one thumb button is a bit far away, but isn't too bad actually.  I might just move it closer without modifying the joystick plate, but I'm not sure yet.  I should really play on the Defender panel too and see how it compares.

Also, I'm trying to come up with games that I can't play on this control panel to plan a second one, but I can play most anything I care about on here if I can get Defender and Stargate to work.  I really miss Centipede, but I plan on having a dedicated vertical Mame machine that'll do that.  There aren't any other trackball games that I can think of that I care about too much.  As far as spinner games go, I love Tempest, but I don't really want to play vector games on a d9500.  Warlords is the only spinner game that I care really think of that I care about on a horizontal CRT monitor.  If I could find a Tempest 2000 emulator that works well with a spinner, that would be worth it.  Also, games like Super Sprint would be nice with a couple spinners and the GGG detachable steering wheel thingy.

I'm trying to avoid the VectorMame thing with the parallel port interface and a real vector monitor. . there aren't that many vector gams that I care about, but the ones that I do care about, I REALLY care about, ie:

Star Castle
Asteroids Deluxe (already have that as a dedicated machine! )
Asteroids (can do without this since I have the Deluxe)
Tempest (this is the big one for me!)
Omega Race (really really really want a fullsize dedicated machine for this with the crazy mirror setup like the Asteroids Deluxe that I have!)

Ummm, can't think of more vector games that I care about. . tempting to just get the real thing for those.  I don't really care about Star Wars or Major Havoc believe it or not. . didn't play those much when I was a kid.

Yup, I'm rambling. . back to stepping through Mame to figure out how to change the input system!

[GaryMcT]

Oh yeah, just remembered. . one cheap control panel that I want to build is 4 JLW/J-sticks for Smash TV (and to a lesser extent Total Carnage). . I like Smash TV enough that it's worth having a control panel for it.  Any other games that you can think of that would play well on that control panel that wouldn't play on a 2 player/7-button each fighter panel?  Maybe that control panel has the spinners and a few buttons on it as well.

[GaryMcT]

Without moving anything else, here's where the reverse button would be on my control panel if it were in the same position relative to the joystick as it is on a Defender control panel.  If I were to make it exactly the same as this, I'd need to not only dremel the joystick plaet, but also a little bit of the plastic on the joystick itself.  Not sure about this yet.  Might make sense to try to get the thumb button for player one and the reverse button to be the same buttons somehow.  Would need to move the 6 buttons in both cases a bit to the left to keep the layout comfortable for Neo Geo games.  Would give more space between the two players as well when doing two player.  Hmmmm.

[GaryMcT]

Do hardware shops typically sell premade jigs?  In particular, a jig like Bender's for routing rectangles of various sizes.  Google has found nothing good for me for this so far.

[GaryMcT]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

How are the pieces of wood connected to each other?  I might have to try to make one of these.

[GaryMcT]

I'm a bit surprised to find that the original Defender control panel feels like crap now.  I don't know how I was so stuck on leaf-switch buttons. . very very hard to use, and the joystick feels terrible, even though it has a new rebuild kit.  Doesn't help that I'm used to to the controls, but. . is still surprising.

I think with the U360 being taller, I actually wouldn't want the reverse button to be as close as it is on the Defender control panel.  I'll probably move the thumb buttons as close to the joystick as I can and adjust the other 6 buttons accordingly on my next prototype. 

[GaryMcT]

I'm tring to avoid Frankenstein-ing my control panel, but it seems like the best thing I can come up with to support Defender without making Neo Geo feel terrible is to put a dedicated reverse button above and to the left of the player 1 thumb button.  I'll draw it up later. . maybe if I make that button the same color as the control panel overlay, it might not look too bad.

[GaryMcT]

I did a very very ugly thing that I'm not proud of, but it works really well.  Ugh.  Added another button specifically for Defender/Stargate right by the player 1 stick.  Works really well, looks terrible!  I may have to keep it, but try to hid it as much as possible (black on black).

[Bender]

Do hardware shops typically sell premade jigs?  In particular, a jig like Bender's for routing rectangles of various sizes.  Google has found nothing good for me for this so far.

I've built a more complicated one since, but originally it was simply 4 pieces of wood wide enough for the router to run on. Since I use them for making templates I'd just screw them down to the template piece countersinking the screws so the router wouldn't hit them
super simple

I'm a bit surprised to find that the original Defender control panel feels like crap now.  I don't know how I was so stuck on leaf-switch buttons. . very very hard to use, and the joystick feels terrible, even though it has a new rebuild kit.  Doesn't help that I'm used to to the controls, but. . is still surprising.

I think with the U360 being taller, I actually wouldn't want the reverse button to be as close as it is on the Defender control panel.  I'll probably move the thumb buttons as close to the joystick as I can and adjust the other 6 buttons accordingly on my next prototype. 

I was surprised too, how much I've come to really like the feel of the U360's

[GaryMcT]

Ugh. . I'm so torn.  I really don't like it when I see Frankenstein control panels, and mine is starting to look like one!!!  Someone talk some sense into me.

[Bender]

you already have a dedicated Defender panel right?

you don't have to make one panel to play every game, that was the whole point to multiple panels, no?

"friends don't let friends build frakenpanels"

clean and simple plays better and feels better IMHO

[GaryMcT]

Haha!  True.  I do have a dedicated Defender panel.  It feels like crap now though, and I don't want to change a thing on it (I'm sentimental that way, and my collector friend would whoop ---my bottom---.)

Oooh, just had a thought.  What if I moved the thumb button up "a button" and used the top row of for the right three for the neo geo layout?  That would make it so that the thumb and defender button are roughly in the same place and can serve double-duty:  Hmmmm. . . . .

[GaryMcT]

Could leave it like it is and move the joystick lower so that it is in the right place relative to the thumb button?  Or I could just make a Stargate panel with a shortened U360 stick (is that even possible?  Haven't looked at it yet to see what it would take to shorten it) so that it is laid out just like Stargate.

[GaryMcT]

Yup, I'm rambling to myself again.

If I were to make a panel for Stargate (and Defender implicitly since it's a subset), what else could I put on there without being too nuts?  I've seen a bunch of Multiwilliams control panels. . much of what they are for are covered by my main control panel.  Think a trackball or spinner could fit on there somehow?  May have to start drawing that up and leave this first one like it is in the last drawing.

Waiting on the magnet from Ultimarc to show up so that I can fix my second U360 and start getting some folks from work to come over and playtest!

[Bender]

to shoten the u360 just don't route out as much material, or any form the bottom, and you should be all set

[GaryMcT]

to shoten the u360 just don't route out as much material, or any form the bottom, and you should be all set

I wasn't thinking. I figured that out after I posted. .

I would just use a JLW with a 2-way restrictor from lizardlick, but I think the switches are in the way of modding it for the button to be close. Need to look at it and see if this is the case for the up-down switches sine I don't need left/right. 

A U360 is an awfully expensive and abut finicky for a 2-way stick.

[GaryMcT]

Looks like the switches are definitely in the way.  I'll probably just stick with a U360 then to make things easier.

[Bender]

yeah, then you won't have the clicky clicky's either

The U360 is so smooooooooooth

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, need to look for a smaller U360-friendly balltop too.  If this is going to be a modern take on a Stargate control panel, might as well not mess around!

[Bender]

lizard lick has em about 3/4 the way down the page siemitsu 30mm balltops. no pics though

[GaryMcT]

I already ordered one from them!!  Also ordered a 2-way restrictor and another dust washer since I broke one of mine.

Went ahead and ordered another U360 for this which I'll use for it's magnet for one of my current ones in the short term until the magnet shows up in the mail from Andy.  I'm going to hold off on ordering the buttons for this yet.  I may end up getting a JROK board for when I'm playing Stargate/Defender.  I figure if I'm going to swap the control panel to play it, might as well!  I can probably wire up my generic panel to play the rest of the Williams games as well.  Those games are worth it to me to have them right, ie. right refresh rate, less audio latency, etc.

[Encryptor]

GaryMcT,

Have you figured out which restrictors you prefer yet?


Encryptor

[GaryMcT]

GaryMcT,

Have you figured out which restrictors you prefer yet?


Encryptor

Not sure yet.  Probably the circular ones though.

[GaryMcT]

The JLW/J-Stick is pretty nice with a circular restrictor!  Giong to have to get more of those at some point for a Smash TV control panel.  They would be pretty much perfect if you only want 8-way if there were a joystick-friendly version of Groovy Game Gear's Micro-Leaf siwtches.

Started Sketchup-ing the Stargate control panel so that I can print it out and compare to the original Defender panel so that I can make sure that the measurements are right.  Once I'm done I'll post the sketchup file since there seem to be varying Defender control panel measurements in all the places that I've looked.

[GaryMcT]

I successfully dissected my Wells Gardner d9500 that died recently to send the chassis off for repair (under warranty).  I'm still alive. . no shocking involved.

By the way, those Wells Gardner guys are really awesome to deal with. . felt like I was dealing with a very personal company while talking through the problem with them on the phone.

[GaryMcT]

I finally hooked up my admin buttons to the IPAC.  Now I really need to finish my code mod to Mame to make shift buttons work across multiple devices.  The joysticks and game buttons are all through the U360s, and the admin buttons are through the IPAC4.

[Bender]

As much as want that shift function updated in mame....

I just had an idea you could double wire the buttons you want shifted(and the shift button) to the Ipac and shift them that way without having to anything on the software side, assuming you have enough room on the the Ipac

that way you'd have key strokes and gamepad inputs to the same buttons

[bkenobi]

If you do that, you need to have a diode installed on each input.  If you don't, you will cause problems with your controls.

[GaryMcT]

I'm going to stick with modding Mame since I'm pretty far along with it, and it would be helpful to others.

It's actually interesting to see if I can fit all the shifted functions that I need just on the 4 buttons at the top (would be 5, but I don't want to use "exit" as a shifted button! )

[Bender]

If you do that, you need to have a diode installed on each input.  If you don't, you will cause problems with your controls.

how's that?

[bkenobi]

I'm assuming you were suggesting Gary use 2 controls connected to a single button so that when the button is pressed, both controls are actuated.  I use this to get extra buttons on my GP-WizRX.  I need 28 buttons and with the RX, I lose 6 for the rotary controls.  So, to get them back, I have a couple admin buttons set to P2Up+P2Down and P2Left+P2Right.  Works fine!

To make that work, I have both inputs wired to one side of the switch and the ground on the other.  I put diodes on the 2 inputs so they don't screw with each.  There's a guide on GGG (among other places) on how to make shifted inputs work on the GP-Wiz.

here's the GGG guide:
http://groovygamegear.com/page13.html

[Bender]

ahhh, I see what your saying

I was talking about something different

using the ipac (keystrokes) for Mame and the U360 (gamepad) for PC games (SFIV). Same buttons on the CP, but different inputs into the computer.

I'm going to stick with modding Mame since I'm pretty far along with it, and it would be helpful to others.

It's actually interesting to see if I can fit all the shifted functions that I need just on the 4 buttons at the top (would be 5, but I don't want to use "exit" as a shifted button! )

Gary, it would be way cleaner to do it through software and it would be great for the community

[GaryMcT]

I don't like how a shifted fast-forward button on an ipac is a momentary event, even ifyoulook joldit down. Or do the newer ones act differently?

[Bender]

mine doesn't do that (i have a minipac)

I think something is wrong there

[GaryMcT]

I'm excited!!  Picking up an Omega Race this weekend!

[GaryMcT]

Woo hoo!  The replacement magnet from Ultimarc showed up today!  Now both of my U360s are marvelous!    Maybe I can invite some friends over this weekend to playtest the latest control panel prototype.

[GaryMcT]

Had some friends over to play tonight.  So far the only negative feedback is the player 2 thumb button getting in the way when playing Robotron (or any game that uses the right stick. . I prefer Pac-Man this way).  I'm not quite sure what to do about it yet.  Here are things that I know can change:

1) The left stick can move at most an inch to the left (probably less) without the player 1 joystick hand hitting the side of the cabinet.
2) I can't move the player 1 buttons closer to the player 1 stick unless I want it to not be exactly the same layout as player 2, where the buttons need to move furthur from the sticks
3) I don't think the player 2 stick can move left at all without player 2's hand hitting player 1's buttons.
4) Player 2's buttons are as far right as they can physically go given cabinet constraints.

These are the options I can think of so far:
1) Get rid of the thumb buttons and go with a 6-button per player layout.
2) Move the thumb buttons to the right a bit
3) Move the player 1 stick an inch (at most) to the left which would give a 1/2 more space between the joysticks and buttons for each player.  This might actually be enough to fix the problem.  I may have to cardboard/paper that to see how it works.  If that isn't enough, I could also move the thumb buttons to the right a fraction of an inch.

Here's the most recent layout:

[GaryMcT]

Here are sketches of the above changes at the same resolution so that you can see the changes easily.  I'm not sure yet if the hold-down clamp will get in the way of the player 1 joystick. . I may have to move it south a bit to get it out of the way.  Fortunately there is room to do that.  What do you think?

Before:



After:



I also moved the buttons a touch away from the top and bottom since they are nearly getting in the way of the cabinet.

If I knew how to easily make an animated GIF, it'd be easier to show the changes.  If you save them and toggle between them in ACDSee or something, it's easier to see.

[Bender]

with the guide lines on there it's easy to see

Not sure how moving the joystick solves the problem (the wrist hitting the button, right?)

I think you could move the thumb buttons up (though that would mess up your defender layout)

[GaryMcT]

The high-level idea is that I within a player, I need to move the thumb button and the joystick apart from each other on the X axis.  Moving the player 1 left a bit gives me a bit more room to work with. 

Moving the thumb button up a bit might help since it may help to clear my hand.  Might want to move it even more to the right.

I've decided to go with a special control panel for Defender/Stargate, so it's okay to move the thumb button away from the joystick.

Here's the problem:



Here's a layover of the last sketch to see where the button falls.  Still looks like it may not fix the problem, but it is close.  I may move the thumb buttons a touch more to the right to be sure.



On a different note, Bender, have you played Mad Planets on Benderama?  This game is new to me, and looks pretty darn cool. .  I don't have the right controls for it yet though.  Looks like it needs exactly what you have already!  Also, are you able to play Frontline on Benderama?  And lastly, you got my PM/email from a week or so ago, yes?  Just want to make sure.

[Bender]

AH, I see!

that is tight, up and to the right, and make sure that button isn't mapped to anything

I got Mad Planets working perfectly (that is a fun game)
Front Line in mame is looking for 2 joysticks I want to set it up for 1 joystick and 1 spinner but can't figure out how to do it
Is there a way to edit what controls are listed (not the editable ones in the TAB menu)

[GaryMcT]

I think you'd have to modify code to make a spinner work if it isn't already there. I'll put that one on the backburner too.

If you ever decide to sell u360 mods for your topfire mod, let me know! 

[Bender]

Leapinlew did it for Gryruss and Time pilot so cool!
I'd love to do that on a few games

I'll trade you
some game mods diffs for a U360 mod

[GaryMcT]

OK, so now I need to order a spinner.   Hmmmm, what should be spinner control panel look like?   Analog stick with trigger on the right, spinner on the left-ish?   Will have to think about this.

If there is already a patch that makes this work for one game, it should be pretty trivial for me to move it to other games.

[GaryMcT]

Leapinlew did it for Gryruss and Time pilot so cool!
I'd love to do that on a few games

I'll trade you
some game mods diffs for a U360 mod

Which games and what do you want them to do?

[GaryMcT]

Another sketch. . will likely try to build another prototype tomorrow, or at least get started on it:

[Bender]

Leapinlew did it for Gryruss and Time pilot so cool!
I'd love to do that on a few games

I'll trade you
some game mods diffs for a U360 mod

Which games and what do you want them to do?

I'll have to think about it

but a few like asteroids, gyrus, time pilot, front line

Another sketch. . will likely try to build another prototype tomorrow, or at least get started on it:

I think that is a winner! 

[GaryMcT]

Cool!  Hmmmm, I don't like the normal Gyruss control scheme too much. . . what are you thinking?  Spinner?  It would still only snap to the nearest 8 directions, which I think is the bad part about the original control scheme.  That game REALLY wanted to be coded for a spinner!

Starting to dream of a GGG High-low spinner and a GGG Electric Ice-T 2.25" trackball. . . I almost wish the trackball came in regular all cue-ball white.  I'm not sure that I'm into lit trackballs.

[GaryMcT]

Starting to contemplate building a Defender cab from the ground up for Mame/multigame purposes and putting the Defender back to original (easy to do) and trying to figure out what is wrong with the main board (or get a JROK board).  I may be signing up for something way bigger than I'm ready for quite yet.  I'd better finish my control panel projects before starting that.

[Bender]

I almost wish the trackball came in regular all cue-ball white.  I'm not sure that I'm into lit trackballs.

I believe you can use an actual cue ball, if you have the right size trackball housing. 2 1/4 I think

[GaryMcT]

Ooh. . I'll try that.  That'll give me the option to decide that I like the lit trackball, or just an actual cue ball in there!   Thanks!

[Encryptor]

Gary,

Just curious why you would spend the extra money to buy an Electric Ice trackball if you didn't want it lighted? You can get a plain Happs trackball for about $50 less.


Encryptor

[GaryMcT]

Gary,

Just curious why you would spend the extra money to buy an Electric Ice trackball if you didn't want it lighted? You can get a plain Happs trackball for about $50 less.


Encryptor

The Happ with a USB interface included is about $100 from what I can tell (looking at the Happ site.)  I don't mind paying an extra $17 knowing that there is a good chance that I'm going to want it to be lit.

[Encryptor]

Gary,

Did you check with Divemaster? He sells Happ stuff.

Encryptor

[GaryMcT]

No, I haven't checked with him.  I'll give him a shout when I get closer to buying.

[GaryMcT]

Finally got around to using my new ratchet quick-connect crimper.  WAY WAY WAY better than the junky Radio Shack one that I was using!

A friend ordered an FPGA dev board to mess around with.  Can't wait to check that out. . . I may have to order one myself soon.  This is very cool:

[GaryMcT]

Ordered a JROK Williams board today for my Defender machine.  My Asteroids Deluxe went POP! and stopped working.  Not going to get much done on anything until Left 4 Dead 2 is done.

[GaryMcT]

Started planning another control panel over here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=96017.0

[GaryMcT]

I got the smaller balltop and the two-way restrictor from lizardlick today.  Seems like it's all going to work really well for the modernized Stargate-like control panel!  I kind of wish that the two-way restrictor was plastic instead of metal, but I think it'll be fine.

Looks like I'll have to not only not route the bottom-mounted U360 for this, but I'll actually have to use some washers or build something else to sink it a little bit deeper so that it's about the same as the Defender stick.  The throw feels like it's going to be about right for this.

[GaryMcT]

I got the smaller balltop and the two-way restrictor from lizardlick today.  Seems like it's all going to work really well for the modernized Stargate-like control panel!  I kind of wish that the two-way restrictor was plastic instead of metal, but I think it'll be fine.

Looks like I'll have to not only not route the bottom-mounted U360 for this, but I'll actually have to use some washers or build something else to sink it a little bit deeper so that it's about the same as the Defender stick.  The throw feels like it's going to be about right for this.

Big giant nevermind on using the lizardlick 2-way restrictor on the U360.  It doesn't actually restrict properly in one dimension, so the megnet hits the poles on the stick.

Looks like a JLW/J-Stick with modified Versa-Micro switches with some dremel work (as Bender recommended earlier) is going to be the solution for the Defender-Stargate-style panel.

[Bender]

if we made a custom restrictor with a slightly shorter through would that work?

[GaryMcT]

That would work.  I'm actually happier with using the J-stick/JLW though since it can be made to work with the Versa-Micro switches.  Seems way more reliable than the U360 and doesn't require power.  I can actually plug it into a JROK board without having to power it, etc.  AND it's way cheaper.   The reason I wanted to use the U360 in the first place was so that the switches wouldn't be in the way.  Now that I finally had the giant duh moment that the switches that were in the way are the left/right switches, that isn't a problem.

[GaryMcT]

Ordered some more buttons with micro-leafs today from GGG!  Got all the right colors for Defender/Stargate with extras plus a black one for coin.

Thinking that I'm going to rewire my 2-player panel to use the ipac4 for all buttons so that it is easy to switch between output mode on the U360 for the JROK Williams board and Mame easily.

[GaryMcT]

Borrowed a friend's Hori Ex2 360 stick today. . made me realize that the Astro City layout works really well for Neo Geo layout games even with just 6 buttons.  I contemplated using the top row as the three rightmost and use the bottom left for the thumb button is the old button layout that I had, but the thumb was too far right.  The Astro City layout seems perfect for this sort of thing, which allows me to get rid of the thumb button which has problematic given my space constraints.  Still too busy to build it, but here's what I'm going to try next:



Here's the stick that I played on that made me think to try this:

http://www.hori.jp/us/products/xbox360/fighting_stick_ex2/index.html

I borrowed the stick from a friend so that I could see how it felt given that I'm going to bulid a stick for a friend for his PC.  I have really bad ergo problems with using a 360 controller myself, so I think this has probably pushed me over the edge for building one for myself for the 360.  I'd love to play the new Robotron-style Zombie game that is on the 360 that a friend worked on, but I'd definitely need analog sticks for that.

[Ginsu Victim]

I'd love to play the new Robotron-style Zombie game that is on the 360 that a friend worked on, but I'd definitely need analog sticks for that.

You just piqued my interest with that comment by combining two of my favorite things: zombies and Robotron!

[GaryMcT]

http://www.nihilistic.com/news.php?action=show&article_id=48

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[GaryMcT]

vids:

http://www.nihilistic.com/news.php?action=show&article_id=46

[Ginsu Victim]

Just watched. Any word on a PC release?

[GaryMcT]

Just watched. Any word on a PC release?

Not that I know of.  I'll ask though.

[Ginsu Victim]

That's the only way I'll be able to play it, so I hope so.

Looks good (though I'm more excited about that other zombie killing game that's on its way...)

[Avinitlarge]

Just out of interest, How big is your CP??

[GaryMcT]

I think it is 24 7/16" x 10 1/2".  It's basically a control panel for a Defender-style cabinet.

[GaryMcT]

LizardLick small ball top on U360 good.   With the U360 bottom-mounted with no routing even better.

Going to have to order some more small ball tops.

[PsychoAU]

Just found this thread, but if you want to see my panel which uses only 23.75" of usuable width, then check out my CP walkthrough video:



I fit two players, 7 buttons each, a trackball, and a spinner all in that width.  I have the Visio layout file if you want it.

[GaryMcT]

Just found this thread, but if you want to see my panel which uses only 23.75" of usuable width, then check out my CP walkthrough video:



I fit two players, 7 buttons each, a trackball, and a spinner all in that width.  I have the Visio layout file if you want it.

Nice!

Looks like you have the benefit of not having anything in the way on the left and right side of the panel.  If I put my controls that close to the edge, I'd be hitting the edge of the panel.

[PsychoAU]

Yes, but you also won't have a trackball in the middle, so you could move things closer together (away from the edge).  I just wanted to show that you can get creative with smaller panels and still fit everything you want without it seeming crowded or uncomfortable.

[GaryMcT]

Yes, but you also won't have a trackball in the middle, so you could move things closer together (away from the edge).  I just wanted to show that you can get creative with smaller panels and still fit everything you want without it seeming crowded or uncomfortable.

Cool. . thanks!

I think I'm almost there with the design.  The last one that I put up looks like it's nearly good.  I still hit the player two button with my right hand when playing Robotron or anything else that uses the player 2 stick with the right hand.

[GaryMcT]

Getting oh so close on this!  Dropped the joysticks south about an inch so that there is no chance of your right hand hitting the buttons in Robotron.  Feels like the sticks are buried too far into the panel now.  Ordered the longer shafts from Ultimarc and the trackball version of the joystick install kit that Bender mentioned so that I have some room to play with one way or the other.

[Ginsu Victim]

Good to hear you're still making progress. Keep it up!

[GaryMcT]

I *finally* have what I think is the final layout.  It's the same as the most recent layout that I posted, but with the joysticks further south to keek from hitting the buttons with my right hand when I play Robotron/Pac-Man.  I need to verify the measurements and get to work on the artwork.

[Ginsu Victim]

Been wondering where you were. Figured L4D2's release and subsequent patches were keeping you busy. (The game freakin' rules, btw)

I'd love to see what you've been working on. This is a project I've been waiting to see finished for a while now. Post pics soon!