GaryMcT's 2-player generic control panel layout

[GaryMcT]

Ugh. . one of my U360s doesn't work after upgrading the firmware.  Here's the thread if you know how to help:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=94930.0

thanks!

[GaryMcT]

Got them both working.

Is it true that the shift functionality on the U360 is different than on the IPAC?  Seems like you always get button 8 when you are using it to shift to something else.  On the IPAC, it waits until you release to send button 8 only if you haven't hit something else.  Does that sound correct?

[protokatie]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

[GaryMcT]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

Would that make all of your buttons light up in your case?

[protokatie]

I don't use lit-up buttons (my front end shows a pic of the buttons used for each selected game). I'm sure you could configure the program you are using to light the buttons to do it that way, or only light up the button you intend them to use. Are you hell bent on using light up buttons? They do look really cool, but I have shied away from them as I doubt they would bring me back to the "old days".

[GaryMcT]

I don't use lit-up buttons (my front end shows a pic of the buttons used for each selected game). I'm sure you could configure the program you are using to light the buttons to do it that way, or only light up the button you intend them to use. Are you hell bent on using light up buttons? They do look really cool, but I have shied away from them as I doubt they would bring me back to the "old days".

I don't have them now, but I might get them eventually.  I like the idea of a guest being able to look down and see which buttons are active for a game.

[GaryMcT]

Got them both working.

Is it true that the shift functionality on the U360 is different than on the IPAC?  Seems like you always get button 8 when you are using it to shift to something else.  On the IPAC, it waits until you release to send button 8 only if you haven't hit something else.  Does that sound correct?

bumpity bump bump

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, seems like I may have to do sonething about the lack of wrist space on my control panel. The only options that I can think of are to go down to less buttons, or have a small extension at the front of the control panel. Whadya think?  Anyway to extend without looking crappy?

[Ginsu Victim]

Just to throw in one small idea about the button layout for 1 button games, make all the buttons act as the one button. That way there is no confusion near the beginning of the game. And for two button games, mirror the 1st and 2nd button to the other row (same for 3 button games). Just a thought, as has been stated before in many a thread that the people who play the cab can not read your mind, and no matter how well you set up the buttons, they will initially have no clue what is going on.

Edit: what I said may have come off odd so I will try to illustrate:

1 button

    1 1 1
    1 1 1
   1

2 button

   1 2 x  (or x 1 2)
   1 2 x  (ditto)
  x

3 button

   1 2 3
   1 2 3
  x

I've done this on a few games. Whenever I get around to running CFG Magician, I'll be sure to set it up that way. Thanks for the reminder.

[GaryMcT]

CFG Magician is great!  Only thing that I've had to tweak in name after using it is:

1) the global player 1 right stick (robotron etc)
2) 0 button games use the right stick for me. I should mahe a new text file fir those and submit it.

I couldn't get it to read the u360 when setting up the mappings though. Would need that to work for both of these, or i'd need to stop being lazy and figure out what the "scan codes" are called for the u360 directions.

[Bender]

Gary,

can you post a picture of the cab?(the area around the cp) then we might have some better suggestions about the design

also in led blinky you can set it to light up just what you want so if you do map more buttons to the same function you can have them all light up or just one

what exactly are you doing with the U360's and cfg magician? never did anything with the joystick in there

[Bender]

it's a defender cab right?
with the coin door so close to the CP it limits what you can do

but if you only need another inch or so I'd do something like this and wrap t-moulding around the front edge of the cp
I know the cp has a slight angle(this is just a couple min. sketch-up mock up)

[GaryMcT]

The original panel had 3/4" t-molding in the front.  If it goes around the side like you are shotn it might look just fine for it to stick out  a couple inches.

thanks!

I'll build a proto and see how that works.

[bkenobi]

As long as you have no controls out on that pad, you can do whatever you want.  If you have controls out there, then you have to worry about enclosing the bottoms of the controls with something. 

Oh, and if you make the extension very long, make sure you use good quality 3/4" MDF or thicker so there's no chance of breaking it off when that yellow truck from RC Pro/Am cheats and you slam your fist on the CP in disgust that your missile missed him somehow.   

[GaryMcT]

As long as you have no controls out on that pad, you can do whatever you want.  If you have controls out there, then you have to worry about enclosing the bottoms of the controls with something. 

Oh, and if you make the extension very long, make sure you use good quality 3/4" MDF or thicker so there's no chance of breaking it off when that yellow truck from RC Pro/Am cheats and you slam your fist on the CP in disgust that your missile missed him somehow.   

Sweet. . I didn't want it to turn out ugly. . that's why the t-molding solution makes me happy!

Any reason to not use plywood instead of MDF since it's all going to be covered up?  I haven't done the joystick routing in plywood yet, so that may be a mess.

Managed to get my ATI 4800 card working with soft15kHz tonight!  I'm still puzzled as to why turning on triple buffering would cause sound sync problems for Pacman, etc.

[OC_Ryan]

Hey Gary,

I'm working with the same size CP and I was going to see what you came up with before I drilled out my holes in my CP. You have any pictures of your finished control panel? Maybe along with visio or any other type of diagrams with some measurements? It would sure ease a lot of the pain for me!

Thanks,
Oliver

[GaryMcT]

Hey Gary,

I'm working with the same size CP and I was going to see what you came up with before I drilled out my holes in my CP. You have any pictures of your finished control panel? Maybe along with visio or any other type of diagrams with some measurements? It would sure ease a lot of the pain for me!

Thanks,
Oliver

I have sketchup files.  Mine isn't done yet though, but I can give you what I have.  I think I'm likely to move the thumb button down a bit, and add a 2 or 3 inch lip on the front to give more palm space.  I'll put up the sketchup file later along with a picture of the latest prototype.  I think the last picture up here is where it is at right now with the two changes that I mentioned.

[GaryMcT]

Here's the current sketchup file:

home.comcast.net/~g.mctaggart/defender custom control panel9.skp

Might want to ignore two buttons at the top. . those were there as a test to see how useful the slot where the Defender joystick fits in would be for putting some buttons.  Not so good.  Things that are going to change beyond this:

1) The thumb buttons are moving lower
2) There will be tiny admin buttons on the top row that can fit in 3/4" wood/MDF without sticking out the bottom since there is no clearance for anything up there.
3) There will be a 2" or 3" lip on the front to give more wrist space. . there isn't enough as there is, and it falls in a really bad spot on my hand.
4) The panel height is actually a bit short here. . . this is the height of the bottom of the panel, where the top is 1/8" taller.  I made it shorter for the prototyping so that I don't have to deal with the angled cut or route.

I'm going to start on a new prototype soon with all these changes soon if you want to wait.

[GaryMcT]

I'm excited!  I'm quickly getting to the point where playing games on my machine doesn't drive me crazy!

I fixed triple buffering in D3D with Mame.  It was waiting on vsync even though it didn't need to with triple buffering.  This makes all the audio sync problems with triple buffering go away!   I don't know how to fix it with ddraw yet (or if it can be fixed).  I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

The only thing visually that I need to fix now is to:
1) fix a few resolutions here and there that aren't good. . mostly the ones that are letterboxed for vertical games.  I plan on having a vertical cab for these in the long term, but I should be able to do something better for now.
2) fix the desktop 800x600 mode that went south when I used soft15khz. . . need to figure out what the modeline is for that.  The one that the vidcard had in the fiirst place was fine.
3) possibly set up a 1024x768 interlaced mode?  I think d9500 supports that. . not entirely sure.
4) fix the pixel centers in D3D mode.  It shouldn't be too hard to get the pixels to line up exactly like the do in ddraw.  I may have to do this if I can't figure out how to triple buffer properly in ddraw.

Now onto the next control panel prototype!!!!    Errr, more like on to Robotron for tonight.

[GaryMcT]

OK, so my patch for fixing sound-syncing with triple-buffering isn't a 100% improvement.  You still get some occasional tearing.  I'm definitely using it as it's better than sound not syncing.

Here's the thread I started about this with the diffs:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=95005.0

[dirkomatic]

I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

Umm...  What's wrong with Linux?  Mine runs great!

[bkenobi]

The only problem with plywood is that it can splinter and tear.  If you use MDF (or any particle board for that matter), you will get a nice clean cut/routed/sanded surface.  If you go with plywood, make sure you use a backer board when you drill.  If you don't, you will end up with some sever blow out on the back side that will be difficult to deal with.

As for the t-molding slots, I've seen cabs that use plywood and the channel looks fine.  I used MDF for mine and it works fine that way too.

[GaryMcT]

I'm really glad I didn't have to go to Linux to get something that I'm happy with (yet at least).  I think triple buffering will keep me from wanting to go nutso and use linux to get the correct resolution *and* refresh rate.

Umm...  What's wrong with Linux?  Mine runs great!

I'll still try Linux. I have too many other things to do with this machine right now to get Linux working. I haven't used Linux since college (which was a long time ago at this point!)

if you have pointers on builds that have support for the fb driver or svgalib for modern cards like the ATI 4800, or tips on howto build the kernel for those drivers, I'd be happy to hear. I installed Fedora to try AdvanceMame and haven't gotten it to run because of this.

Do you use AdvanceMame?

[dirkomatic]

I use SDLMame on Ubuntu with a GeForce card.  I'm not sure whatI'd have to do to get it working with a real arcade monitor....

[GaryMcT]

I use SDLMame on Ubuntu with a GeForce card.  I'm not sure whatI'd have to do to get it working with a real arcade monitor....

I'm using a Wells Gardner D9500 monitor.

I guess I need to read up on SDLMame.

[GaryMcT]

So after I finally have a final control panel, do I just use a router to cut out the Lexan to put on top of it?

[protokatie]

Measure 15 times and cut once with that. You could clamp the lexan to the CP and use the holes you already drilled as the template/guide for the drill press tho.

[Bender]

So after I finally have a final control panel, do I just use a router to cut out the Lexan to put on top of it?

yes, just clamp it down and use a flush trim bit. I also do the holes with that bit too, you just have to drill a hole in the center big enough for you bit to fit into
this method ensures perfect line up of the lexan and the CP (those small button holes might be to small unless you have a 1/4 flush trim bit)

[GaryMcT]

Actually from the back with a 1" fostner bit in your new drill press
you drill about 5/8 into the plywood but obviously not all the way through(the buttons only have like a 1/8" thread on them) then the .52" hole centered inside the 1" hole
it is easier to do it in this order because the 1" bit will leave a little indent at the center and it's easy to line up the smaller bit in that, and get it dead center

practice is a good thing, and mark the stop on your drill press so the next one will be super easy and perfect (just make sure the wood is the same thickness, 3/4" ply and 3/4 MDF" are rarely actually the same thickness)

also I get rid of the little foam washer thing in there so the button sits lower to the panel

on the right is the basic idea

This works like a charm, and is surprisingly easy!  YAY drill press!!!   I have a lock washer with it, but I don't see a foam washer.

When I get to the lexan, do I cut it to be .52"-ish, or should it surround the whole button?

Also, I had a big "duh" moment. . . when I finally get a plywood control panel that I'm happy with, can I just use it as a template to route an MDF one?

[Bender]

yeah, just like the lexan. once you have a template it's pretty easy after that just rough cut the next piece a little bigger than copy with the flush trim bit. done and done!

those small buggers are the exception I didn't think of a lexan cover, humm...


-time passes-


OK, this may be easier than I though. I think I'd drill a .52 hole in the lexan and drill the 1" hole all the way through the MDF and just tighten the button down to the lexan, so the button will actually only be connected to the lexan (this way will also definitely make sure you have enough room underneath)

or you could cut out the diameter of the button face and have it sit below the lexan, but I don't think that would look as nice

the foam bit on mine were black and snugged up against the bottom of the back lip of the button face above where the threads end, it's a bit hard to see but it gives you another 1/16"ish space available to clamp down

[GaryMcT]

yeah, just like the lexan. once you have a template it's pretty easy after that just rough cut the next piece a little bigger than copy with the flush trim bit. done and done!

those small buggers are the exception I didn't think of a lexan cover, humm...


-time passes-


OK, this may be easier than I though. I think I'd drill a .52 hole in the lexan and drill the 1" hole all the way through the MDF and just tighten the button down to the lexan, so the button will actually only be connected to the lexan (this way will also definitely make sure you have enough room underneath)

or you could cut out the diameter of the button face and have it sit below the lexan, but I don't think that would look as nice

the foam bit on mine were black and snugged up against the bottom of the back lip of the button face above where the threads end, it's a bit hard to see but it gives you another 1/16"ish space available to clamp down

That makes perfect sense!  I'll go ahead and do it how you original suggested doing it for the prototypes since I won't have the Lexan at hand.

Here's a new version of the layout.  Starting to try to figure out where to put admin buttons, coin buttons, start buttons:



The buttons at the top are actually the tiny circles. . the other circles are there to know where to cut the bigger holes on the underside.  The buttons are, from left to right:

exit         coin1 start1         pause ffwd      coin2 start2

I'm pretty sure ffwd could go away and just have a pause there.  I could probably do this instead:

              coin1 start1         pause exit      coin2 start2

since the buttons are hard to push and not have the button at the left.  I don't know if visitors are ever going to use ffwd, if not, then I can use a shifted combo for that.  Heck, I might even be able to get away with visitors never pausing.  Do others find that visitors want to pause?

Also note that it is actually a couple inches taller than this. . I haven't represented that in the drawing yet.  I have to still figure out how much taller.  The current prototype that I'm working on is really darn tall so that I can cut it down until it is right.

So are the U360 shift modes really messed up, or is it just me?  Seems like you always get the shift button to register its own keypress along with the other button that you hit.  This is different than the IPAC, which is kind of a bummer.  I'm not likely to use the U360 for shifting if this is the case.  I'll just do all shifting off of the little buttons at the top and have them all go throug the IPAC.

[bkenobi]

Your latest proposed setup looks identical to mine (without the button to the left).  I have P1 coin, P1 start....Pause, Exit.....P2 coin, P2 start
and then the same joystick and SF/NeoGeo config as you.  The only difference is that I'm using LS-30s whereas you have U360's.  I've had mine up and running for a couple years and I really like it.

Btw, you don't really need a dedicated fast forward button.  Since you will only need it in MAME, you can just map multiple buttons to that.  For instance, P1Start + P1Right could be FF and P1Start + P1Up could be TAB.  It's up to you, but you certainly don't need these extra buttons unless you really like them.

[GaryMcT]

Your latest proposed setup looks identical to mine (without the button to the left).  I have P1 coin, P1 start....Pause, Exit.....P2 coin, P2 start
and then the same joystick and SF/NeoGeo config as you.  The only difference is that I'm using LS-30s whereas you have U360's.  I've had mine up and running for a couple years and I really like it.

Btw, you don't really need a dedicated fast forward button.  Since you will only need it in MAME, you can just map multiple buttons to that.  For instance, P1Start + P1Right could be FF and P1Start + P1Up could be TAB.  It's up to you, but you certainly don't need these extra buttons unless you really like them.

Cool!  Nice to see that you have a very similar layout and it's working for you!   I dig the Neo Geo colors on the bottom row.  I'm likely to eventually do the RGB lit button thing with the clear buttons. . would be neat to see those colors there when playing Neo Geo games.

So if you map P1Start + P1Right to FF, does it avoid sending a P1Start command when you do that?  Does that make it so that the P1Start command doesn't happen until you let go of the P1Start button?  That's how I hoped the U360 would work.  My setup is a bit discombobulated right now so I can't try it out.

[GaryMcT]

Bender, what's the control panel surface on Benderama?  Not lexan with some artwork underneath?

[Bender]

yeah FF should be a shifted button and concidering the size limitations maybe even the pause button could be shifted too
I know I said earlier that you could get those small buttons pretty close, on that latest layout it even scares me to have the exit and pause 1/4 inch away from a gameplay button, so how about one of these, just feels better IMO

[GaryMcT]

yeah FF should be a shifted button and concidering the size limitations maybe even the pause button could be shifted too
I know I said earlier that you could get those small buttons pretty close, on that latest layout it even scares me to have the exit and pause 1/4 inch away from a gameplay button, so how about one of these, just feels better IMO

I agree completely. . I think I'll go with option #1 and assume that exit is the only thing that I need an explicit button for on top of the coin and start buttons.

[Bender]

The benderama has a polycarbonate film over art printed on adhesive vinyl no plexi or acrylic cause I have a curved front to the panel (no edges digging into my wrist) and I don't remember a lot of plexi covered cp's in the arcade

[GaryMcT]

Do you have a link for the type of polycarbonate film that you used?  Maybe I should do that instead of Lexan.  How thick is the film?  Is it the sort of thing that you just stick on and then use a utility knife to cut out using the control panel as a template?

I'm thinking that my artwork is going to be something very derivative of the original Defender control panel to keep things looking original-ish.  Hmm, come to think of it, the original control panel has a thing sheet of plastic over it. . it's so gunked out that it's hard to tell how it's supposed to be really attached on there.

I like the idea of a curve on the front for something completely scratch.  Way way better than having a big ass overhang on the front to keep from having the corner hit your wrist. 

[Bender]

the film I have is 10mil I think the stuff they use at MameMarquees is 7mil plenty thick

[GaryMcT]

Yes?



So the polycarbonate is still thin enough to still be able to leave 1/8" in the MDF/wood for the tiny buttons to mount?