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Well, that didn't take long... But now it's alive(ish).


Paintjob didn't happen as planned so the whole project ended in hiatus. Finally I decided to bring the four player modules to use with some paint on them so that I can use the cabinet until the one player module is (hopefully) someday painted properly. I decided to do it this way since anything that can be played with the one player module can be played with this too. As observant persons can see these modules aren't finished yet, only 1 player part is somewhat ready, only thing missing from it is the 4-way/8-way part.

It ended up to P4 - P1 - P2 -P3 order because I'll be always player one and that means that when playing two or three player games I have the whole left side, I have to squeeze between two other people only when playing four player games. (Or when playing Gauntlet as warrior with elf and valkyrie.) I should get this fairly fast to fully functional, only possible hiccup I can think of is that Ipac doesn't play well together with the second control board (for which I don't even remember the brand anymore...) but Ipac seem so configurable that I don't expect it to be a problem even if the other board won't be.

Biggest problem of the long hiatus is that I've moved my budget towards other interests so even if these three panels will be ready I don't know when I'll start making the additional panels. Which will be single player panels only, except for 360 wheel, since the closet I'm planning to store the unused panels isn't that big when you start putting them in. So at the moment there are plans on building three 360 wheel panels, one trackball panel and one panel that has a spinner and buttons for Track & Field. And of course the two cover panels on the sides.

alive

Thanks everyone (this forum was such a brilliant find - really appreciate your input)

I'll try to answer all points above, in this post, so here goes ..

1. Track and Field, i had an unusual skill in the arcade and could make my player run at almost full speed (my trick was to very lightly press each button, so that the press barely registered and then concentrated on pure speed). I acknowledge the comments about timing but can't figure out how I could get it right in the arcade but not at home, with the same button pressing action .. more to experiment with. Unfortunately, the game does two things I really struggle with:
a. My Player/Athlete  runs if I only press one button repeatedly (clearly this is just wrong) .. I've tried different ROMS and different emulators without getting this to stop happening. I'll keep trying.
b.  I've noticed that my player runs super quickly initially, when I press both buttons quickly, and then it's like the game thinks I'm cheating, so slows him down,  both annoying as I want to replicate my skill (or try to in my advancing years) ;-) I do still need to listen to BadMouth's suggestions - MAME's default dead zone is 30%!, reduce it to zero or near zero AND Increase saturation to 1 (100%).

2. Digital 'gas' pedals. I've managed to get Super Sprint working and it worked fine .. and I'll try it with Time Crisis 5 (which needs 2 pedals, unlike previous TC games) .. This makes perfect sense for my coffee table solution, with the middle section of the table reserved for all analogue equipment, such as  Logitech's G29 steering, pedals and shifter.  Maybe a flight stick in this section of the table too, if space allows and I get into flight sim games as I read I can use an analogue pedal in place of a digital ones, so using Outrun on my G29 set up should work too.  Just a case of trial and error for now.

3. In regards to the Ultimate IO and U-HID, I need one trackball and two spinners as a minimum. I might install a 4PDT switch, to change between a control panel spinner and one of my super sprint steering wheels (but that's still 3). Given your comments about the 3" trackball, I might get the Ultimate IO and the ultimarc trackball and hold off the U-HID unless I need it in the future. The console specific LED facility is an attractive option, so I might get the ultimate IO solution and then get the RGB lights in the future. For now, I will use fixed coloured LED lights/buttons  in an Xbox layout.

4. Lastly, I am very conscious about my LOTR "One console to rule them all" solution but so far things seems to work so I'll stick with it until I hit a wall I cannot climb.

Technical issues so far are fairly small:

1. Super Sprint, I have to disable my mouse, as all other spinners get assigned to P1, P2 and P3 steering wheels (otherwise my mouse changes to P1 steering wheel, which is not what I want) .. I am not sure of a way to make MAME ignore my standard mouse and use the other HID devices .. so minor inconvenience.
2. Getting the buttons to work,  EXACTLY as intended, for Track & Field .. again only one game so not a biggie.
3. Switching between an 8 way and a 4 way controller. However, as I'm using a joystick for a gear shifter, I could put a 4 way restricting plate on that (instead of a 2 way which I currently have) and make it into a gear shifter/4 way joystick ??

I will of course use a powered hub and will turn off USB power to lightguns and spinners etc until needed but it's all looking very doable .. (he says)

Still full of naive optimism ... for now .. as you can see ;-)

Thanks again to all :-)

TK

Oh and PS - That Pinball controller looks amazing too :-)

1. Is the ULITIMATE I/O and possible a U-HID the right way to go .. They are so expensive (comparatively) but if things just work, then it's money well spent

It could be, depending on the details of what controls and features you want.

This is where the part of the FAQ that I linked to earlier comes in handy.
- Work your way through that step-by-step design process and you'll develop a list of controls and inputs.
- Once you have that list, you can start to figure out what encoders you'll need for those controls and inputs.

If you've got to have RGB LED buttons that light up to show what controls are active for a given game, the Ult. I/O (combination encoder and LED controller) makes sense.

If you don't need the fancy per-game LED lighting, you can get an IPac2 for a lot less.

(I have created 2 spinners from rotary encoders, which work well and I am yet to add a trackball (undecided if I should use the expensive 3" Ultimarc one or get a cheapy 2" version for less than half of the price.

The Ult. I/O and IPac2 can both handle a trackball and one spinner. (a total of 3 optical axes)

If you want a trackball and two spinners (a total of 4 optical axes), you'll need at least one other optical (mouse) encoder.

The 3" UTrak is WAY better quality and resolution than the cheap 2" one.  The UTrak is far easier to install on a wood panel and is plug-and-play with the Ult. I/O or IPac2.

3. I am connecting an awful lot of USB peripherals to my gaming pc (Lightguns x 2, rotary encoders/steering wheels/spinners (at least 2 maybe 3), foot pedals (gas pedals if you're American) , an additional joystick for a shifter (as it works better than the dedicated shifter I bought)

For that many USB controls and encoders, you may want a powered USB hub.

Use the design process mentioned above to sort through and organize it all.  After you develop the full detailed list of controls, inputs, and input types, we can look at possible overlaps like the Missile Command buttons.

Over the years, lots of guys have tried to make "one cab to play them all".  None of them have ever succeeded.

More control types leads to more design compromises and more difficulty pulling it off.

The closer you can get to a short game list that requires minimal types of controls, the more likely you are to end up with a good setup.


Scott

Part 2:   Dual Analog Steering

Ive read that some people have trouble controlling Pot based steering games.. when using a Spinner.  I have not tried, as my spinner (and other controllers) were stolen.. before I ever got the chance.

IF that is the case... One possible solution, is to have a  Spinner, and a Pot Dial,  stacked vertically.. where they are at a diagonal from each other.

Like this:

[..O......]
[.....O...]

In this way... your hand can reach Either of these Controllers, without anything getting in the way.
Pot based steering mechanisms would be pretty easy to Hack.  Especially if you hacked something like an RC car controller,
that already has a small diameter Dial.. thats also already "Center-Sprung" (springs to the center).

To go even further, might be a custom 3d printed version, where you could adjust the Springs from the top of the Control Panel...
to select from a Center Sprung position... into a Single Direction Sprung position (for Golf and Bat Swinging games,
where you can use the entire pot travel for the axis, rather than half of the axis).


There is yet another design potential that hasnt been created yet... where you could have a Spinner, that can function as
both an Optical device, AND a Center Sprung + Geared POT device.   I came up the the concept a long time ago...
where you basically have a sliding and locking mechanism.. that connects a D-Shaped (d-ended) Spinner shaft, to a rear mounted
mechanism that has a Pot + Gearing + Physical Limiters on it.

 My design was originally meant for a large diameter 360 degree wheel.. mounted for a sit-down style of setup.  However,
no reason why it also couldnt be adapted to a vertically mounted spinner, instead.

 Of course, these type of mechanism would require a decently deep control panel, to house it.

A lot of Driving games.. can be played decently with a Digital Gas Pedal.. because the Acceleration isnt that Extreme...
HOWEVER...

 There are certain amazing games that really NEED that higher precision throttle control:

- Spy Hunter
- Sega's  Turbo

Im sure there may be others... but for these two games alone, Id always use an Analog Pedal Set.
The good thing about analog pedals.. is that emulators can treat them as both analog and digital.  I believe you can
set the activation point, where they will toggle on / off.. as far as a Digital translation goes.


Also.. I could Never play a game like Turbo, or Spy Hunter... with a Button based Shifter.  These games really need
a good 2-way shifter.   And games like Race Drivin.. really needs the 6 position shifter.   There are some affordable
6 position shifters on the market.. but I dont know how well they interact with emulators.   Of course, Race Drivin has
other issues... in that I believe it needs a 900 degree wheel.  That said.. a spinner "might" work, for steering the car.

"A great example of something I just cannot get my head around is Track & Field. When I press the RUN buttons (I've tried on MAME and RetroArch and with the keyboard and my XBox controller) they work but I cannot get anywhere near to the super speeds I used to get on the actual arcade machine. In fact, when I repeatidly press, just one of the run keys (doesn't matter which) I actually run faster. This makes no sense to me at all. Do you know what I am doing wrong or have configured incorrectly to cause this"

 In the arcade.. they used Long-Travel Leaf-Switch buttons (pinball buttons).  With many of these leaf button games... you have to press the button down about half way.. before the two metal contacts touch.. to activate the button.  The extra travel helps keep you from accidentally pressing.. when you are just keeing your fingers on the buttons.

 The leafs.. unlike Microswitches.. can be toggled on and off, from a mere papers thickness worth of movement / vibration.  To activate a micro-switch, requires about 1 to 2mm worth of travel.. for each direction... AND... the microswitch has a very strong spring force that causes a lot of finger fatigue, when you have to use repeatedly fast button presses.

 In order to get Maximum repeated speeds.. without any Fatigue from your fingers.. you want to do a technique called  "FEATHERING".
You install a real long travel leaf switch (dont use short travel versions, and they will bottom-out, and slow things down)..
then, you press the button until it Activates.  Once you activate it.. WITHOUT fully Pressing the button down to the bottom.. you can
lightly  "Vibrate"  your finger.  This vibration will toggle the contacts on and off... at a lightning fast pace... that no other button can replicate.

 This is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in a game like Halley's Comet... which expects and rewards the player with additional powerups, IF you can maintain a non-stop maximum repeated fire rate.  The game punished you, if you ease up.   Trying to play this game with a microswitch button.. will result in really extreme fatigue, within less than 3 minutes worth of gameplay.

 In the case of Track and Field.. I believe you need to time your button presses, with the onscreen movement of the characters animations.  That, or at minimum... need to have each button press.. be pressed alternatively, with the exact same timings apart.  Meaning, equally on and off,  in their alternative pressing and releasing (perfect timings).

 Even without Feathering.. the Leaf buttons do not have a heavy spring resistance like Microswitches have... thus, it makes it much easier to repeatedly press them rapidly.. and at a much higher rate of repeatability.

At the end of all this, I simply created a profile in VMMaker (part of GroovyMAME) with a lower bound of 16700KHz. At this resolution, all the geometry is perfect and I can get the pro menu. Aside from the geometry being fixed, there is no noticeable difference in the two modes. I'm calling it a win and a manufacturer defect.

RE: Track & Field, I found this whilst searching the forum

https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,153099.msg1603641.html#msg1603641

Looks like it's a game issue rather than a controller / encoder issue. The arcade game allowed me to run at super sonic speeds, as I could press the run buttons really quickly but there must be another reason why it's stops registering fast button presses.

more homework to do !

:-)

Apologies,
I didn't understand the meaning behind your warning. No one, and I mean no one, will come close to changing the settings on my set up when I do it. I can barely keep up with some of it myself (2A being a prime example) - So thanks, I get what you were trying to say originally (I thought you were making a joke)

There are, however,  things I still am not clear on, which I need to understand before I starting putting this all together. For example:

1. Is the ULITIMATE I/O and possible a U-HID the right way to go .. They are so expensive (comparatively) but if things just work, then it's money well spent (I have created 2 spinners from rotary encoders, which work well and I am yet to add a trackball (undecided if I should use the expensive 3" Ultimarc one or get a cheapy 2" version for less than half of the price.
2. A great example of something I just cannot get my head around is Track & Field. When I press the RUN buttons (I've tried on MAME and RetroArch and with the keyboard and my XBox controller) they work but I cannot get anywhere near to the super speeds I used to get on the actual arcade machine. In fact, when I repeatidly press, just one of the run keys (doesn't matter which) I actually run faster. This makes no sense to me at all. Do you know what I am doing wrong or have configured incorrectly to cause this
3. I am connecting an awful lot of USB peripherals to my gaming pc (Lightguns x 2, rotary encoders/steering wheels/spinners (at least 2 maybe 3), foot pedals (gas pedals if you're American) , an additional joystick for a shifter (as it works better than the dedicated shifter I bought)

Ultimately, even though I've plunged into learning, there's still so much I need to figure out.

Thanks a lot for all of your support with this, it is very much appreciated :-)

Cheers

TK   

Hey Jeffo... LTNS...

Hope y'all enjoy (even with the cheesy cover)...