GaryMcT's 2-player generic control panel layout

[GaryMcT]

I *might* be able to help with the "make the U360 work with the xbox 360" project if I had the source code for the U360 firmware.  One thing I *can* do to help out with stuff like this is to program. 

[GaryMcT]

After playing more sped-up pacman, ms. pacman, and some Robotron, I think the layout may be fine like is.  I kinda suck bad when I rest my right hand on the control panel, and I do better when my hand is in the air.  Having the second player thumb button there may be a non-issue.

. . and the project for tomorrow is definitely to get my U360 that doesn't calibrate properly to work better.  Wish me luck!

[Bender]

lookin great! your getting good with that router, those channels are delicate and nicely done 

switch the PCB boards on the 2 u360's and if the problem migrates to the other joystick you might have a bad PCB just sent it back to Andy at ultimarc and he'll get you a new one

[GaryMcT]

Cool.  Since I have two U360s, I can definitely swap parts tonight until I figure out what part is bad.  I may also take pictures of the parts and reassembly since I think that would be useful to people.  I know I could have used that when I got mine!

On the XBox 360/U360 front, is there a simpler analog joystick that has a simpler output that could be converted to take the place of the wireles X360 controller analog stick?  I have some googling to do today.   I have an X360 controller that someone dropped and one of the buttons is kinda messed up. . . I may have to go ahead and take that apart and poke at the stick that is on there to see what it outputs if it is just a pot.

Hmmm, maybe we should start that thread soon!

[Bender]

yeah, i think if we can find out what kind of pot it's using it should be pretty easy from there

how do you test for that?

I have a couple already open

[GaryMcT]

I would set a multimeter for measure resistance (ohms), put the leads on either end, and move it around to see what the range is.  If you can match that range with something else, should be able to replace it.

[Bender]

found this on the interwebs
it says that the voltage range is from 0 to 1.61v

Part 1
Part 2

so now we have to find some analog stick that has the same range?

man, if that guy can build a tilt controller we should be able to add couple of analog sticks

[GaryMcT]

found this on the interwebs
it says that the voltage range is from 0 to 1.61v

Part 1
Part 2

so now we have to find some analog stick that has the same range?

man, if that guy can build a tilt controller we should be able to add couple of analog sticks

Fail on my part. . I was assuming that it is a potentiometer.

Might be worth looking at the Happ analog one to see what range it is in.  I'm so swamped with bugs right now at work that I can't even google it.

[Bender]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

[GaryMcT]

It probably does relate somehow.  I may go ahead and disassemble my broken one soon so that I can help out.

[GaryMcT]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

You probably want to measure the restistance (ohms) on the pot yourself with a multimeter.  Depending on what the range is, you'd need some outboard circuitry (or the optional amp) to map from the happ stick to what the x360 wants.

[GaryMcT]

Figured out the U360 problem!  If I swap magnets between the two, the problem migrates to the other joystick.  I'll bug Andy to send me another magnet.  I'll buy a restrictor or something though so that I'm paying for the shipping though since I don't know if I messed it up or if it came that way.

[KissMyWookie]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

[GaryMcT]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

I'm an electronics newby.  Is it likely that the circuit in the x360 controller is reading the voltage change, or the resistance change when reading the analog stick?

[Bender]

hey Gary,

I started a thread on the analog x360 thing here

now I'm wondering what actual control scheme would look like. What your ideal controller look like? two flight sticks? for me this would really be for FPS's

this is what I see is needed, am I missing anything?

4 analog axes

8 buttons (action)

3 admin buttons (back start guide)

4 direction d-pad or 4 more buttons

[GaryMcT]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

[KissMyWookie]

no worries, this is a hobby and should never take precedence over real work

I think they are potentiometers

happ's analog joysticks have either 5k or 100k pots though it says "Optional pot. amplifier PC board allows variable output from potentiometer"

I have no idea how that "k" relates to volts

The K on a potentiometer is the resistive value in kilo-ohms (1000's of ohms) of the device. Even though resistors are current limiting devices, it's normal to see a change in the voltage across the resistor/potentiometer as the resistance changes.

Steve

I'm an electronics newby.  Is it likely that the circuit in the x360 controller is reading the voltage change, or the resistance change when reading the analog stick?

I'm not an expert (I just dabble in electronics), so someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

It's probably feeding the pot(s) with a regulated input (precisely fixed voltage), then measuring the output through an analog-to-digital converter (ADC). The return voltage will drop as the resistance increases.

Steve

[Bender]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

yeah, I was thinking 4 buttons (2 trigger and 2 thumb) on each flightstick and possibly a d-pad on one

and just the 3 admin buttons on the actual panel

[GaryMcT]

I have to think about it.  What makes it crazy hard is that with a gamepad you have access to both a stick and multiple buttons with a single hand.  May require a stick with buttons to work for a lot of games.

yeah, I was thinking 4 buttons (2 trigger and 2 thumb) on each flightstick and possibly a d-pad on one

and just the 3 admin buttons on the actual panel

If I were doing this on a large enough control panel, I'd probably also want to put some regular buttons on the surface for games that don't use the right stick.  I think the thing that hurts me with gamepads is having to "claw" my hands.  I think a flight stick might actually have the same problem for me unfortunately.

I'm pleasantly surprised that playing arcade games with a ball-top U360 and a bunch of buttons is really ergonomic for me and I doesn't hurt me nearly as much as playing an FPS on a PC with a mouse and keyboard (mouse hand kills me) or playing on an X360 controller.

[Bender]

ahh, that's easy enough

[GaryMcT]

Got MaLa set up tonight.  Pretty darn nice!  The thing that stopped me with it the first time was not being able to import a text rom list for a favorites list.  Fortunately I found a thread on here with a workaround for importing mameui favorites files.  The Zebra theme is a really nice starting point.  I like having the marquee, cabinet, control panel, video all onscreen.

The only stuff I miss from GameEx so far is:

1) I like how you can use the stick in GameEx to navigate, and then hold down a "shift" button of sorts to navigate by page or by letter.  I'm not sure how to do that in GamEx with a gamepad input (U360).

Umm, well, that's a long list!

In the "I want features!" department, would be cool if the gamelists were stored in text files.  I end up writing lots of scripts to deal with stuff like that. . is really inconvenient for them to be in binary files.  Also would be really awesome if there were support for connecting directly to the emumovies ftp server (if you have an account) and getting all the relevant art fo the games that you have in your game lists.

I suppose I should post this over in the MaLa part of the forum.  I'll do that once I use it a bit more and see what else comes up.

So far I'm really happy with the level of configurability for the menus.  That seemed a bit painful in GameEx.

Also, can't wait for the magnet to show up for my second U360!  Andy says it'll be in the mail soon.

Still haven't wired up admin buttons. . been having too much fun playing when not screwing with frontend stuff.

[GaryMcT]

Back to GameEx. . MaLa was was too sluggish on input.  Going to use the QT framework (I think) to write my own frontend.  Not really planning on making it configurable enough for anyone else to use, but I can put the code out nonetheless.

Did a bit of work on making sense of the mame input system tonight. . pretty neat stuff!  Hopefully I'll figure out how to implement shift keys this weekend.

Was looking at my Defender control panel tonight.  I could almost play Defender on my two-player panel as it is if I were to mod the U360 base and make room for a reverse button in the same spot as it is on the Defender panel (relative to the left stick).  The thumb button on bottom-left two buttons on player two are pretty good for thurst, fire, and smart bomb.  Hyperspace and Inviso could be anywhere on the right side I suppose.  Whadya think?  I may be more likely to play Defender and Stargate (which I love to play) if I don't have to swap in another control panel to do it.  The extra button won't get in the way of my left hand I don't think.  Nutty?

[Bender]

That's the beauty of building your own
You make it exactly how YOU want it
it would be pretty east to mod the JLW(U360)base to fit that button in
Let me know if you need some help

[bkenobi]

If you are still using GameEx, you can set up a custom input to map your buttons how you want them.  That way you can have whatever button you want for the Alpha/Paging button.  I personally still use XPadder to remap my GP-Wiz to keyboard inputs, but you don't have to.

[GaryMcT]

If you are still using GameEx, you can set up a custom input to map your buttons how you want them.  That way you can have whatever button you want for the Alpha/Paging button.  I personally still use XPadder to remap my GP-Wiz to keyboard inputs, but you don't have to.

I think I'm using the default setup in GameEx for navigating the menus and I really like it. The mainproblem that I'm having with GameEx is that I don't lie havingto navigate to mame-only favorites every time I start it up. That's the menu I want most of the time. Any way you know of to fix that?

Also, I had a friend over navigating the GameEx menus and he got lost far too often and started a game instead of exiting a menu way too much. 

[GaryMcT]

That's the beauty of building your own
You make it exactly how YOU want it
it would be pretty east to mod the JLW(U360)base to fit that button in
Let me know if you need some help

What would you use to cut it?  Would you cut a hole, or get rid of a quadrant of the plate?  I'm assumin that you'd just lose one of the screws and mount with three?

I'll maybe do some drawings of this today if I either finish the mame shift button code mod today or get tired of coding. . If this plate mod is easy I could cut it and mod the proto this weekend!!!  I miss Defender.

[Bender]

I'd try really hard to get 4 screws on there some how (even if you have to make a new screw hole in the plate)
maybe rotate the joystick orientation the other way if that helps the location
I'd cut the metal plate with a drumel tool and if any area of the plastic had to be removed I'd use a fostner bit in the drill press

[GaryMcT]

Thanks for the info Bender!  I played Stargate and Defender as it is for a while today. . wasn't that bad actually.  The player one thumb button is a bit far away, but isn't too bad actually.  I might just move it closer without modifying the joystick plate, but I'm not sure yet.  I should really play on the Defender panel too and see how it compares.

Also, I'm trying to come up with games that I can't play on this control panel to plan a second one, but I can play most anything I care about on here if I can get Defender and Stargate to work.  I really miss Centipede, but I plan on having a dedicated vertical Mame machine that'll do that.  There aren't any other trackball games that I can think of that I care about too much.  As far as spinner games go, I love Tempest, but I don't really want to play vector games on a d9500.  Warlords is the only spinner game that I care really think of that I care about on a horizontal CRT monitor.  If I could find a Tempest 2000 emulator that works well with a spinner, that would be worth it.  Also, games like Super Sprint would be nice with a couple spinners and the GGG detachable steering wheel thingy.

I'm trying to avoid the VectorMame thing with the parallel port interface and a real vector monitor. . there aren't that many vector gams that I care about, but the ones that I do care about, I REALLY care about, ie:

Star Castle
Asteroids Deluxe (already have that as a dedicated machine! )
Asteroids (can do without this since I have the Deluxe)
Tempest (this is the big one for me!)
Omega Race (really really really want a fullsize dedicated machine for this with the crazy mirror setup like the Asteroids Deluxe that I have!)

Ummm, can't think of more vector games that I care about. . tempting to just get the real thing for those.  I don't really care about Star Wars or Major Havoc believe it or not. . didn't play those much when I was a kid.

Yup, I'm rambling. . back to stepping through Mame to figure out how to change the input system!

[GaryMcT]

Oh yeah, just remembered. . one cheap control panel that I want to build is 4 JLW/J-sticks for Smash TV (and to a lesser extent Total Carnage). . I like Smash TV enough that it's worth having a control panel for it.  Any other games that you can think of that would play well on that control panel that wouldn't play on a 2 player/7-button each fighter panel?  Maybe that control panel has the spinners and a few buttons on it as well.

[GaryMcT]

Without moving anything else, here's where the reverse button would be on my control panel if it were in the same position relative to the joystick as it is on a Defender control panel.  If I were to make it exactly the same as this, I'd need to not only dremel the joystick plaet, but also a little bit of the plastic on the joystick itself.  Not sure about this yet.  Might make sense to try to get the thumb button for player one and the reverse button to be the same buttons somehow.  Would need to move the 6 buttons in both cases a bit to the left to keep the layout comfortable for Neo Geo games.  Would give more space between the two players as well when doing two player.  Hmmmm.

[GaryMcT]

Do hardware shops typically sell premade jigs?  In particular, a jig like Bender's for routing rectangles of various sizes.  Google has found nothing good for me for this so far.

[GaryMcT]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

How are the pieces of wood connected to each other?  I might have to try to make one of these.

[GaryMcT]

I'm a bit surprised to find that the original Defender control panel feels like crap now.  I don't know how I was so stuck on leaf-switch buttons. . very very hard to use, and the joystick feels terrible, even though it has a new rebuild kit.  Doesn't help that I'm used to to the controls, but. . is still surprising.

I think with the U360 being taller, I actually wouldn't want the reverse button to be as close as it is on the Defender control panel.  I'll probably move the thumb buttons as close to the joystick as I can and adjust the other 6 buttons accordingly on my next prototype. 

[GaryMcT]

I'm tring to avoid Frankenstein-ing my control panel, but it seems like the best thing I can come up with to support Defender without making Neo Geo feel terrible is to put a dedicated reverse button above and to the left of the player 1 thumb button.  I'll draw it up later. . maybe if I make that button the same color as the control panel overlay, it might not look too bad.

[GaryMcT]

I did a very very ugly thing that I'm not proud of, but it works really well.  Ugh.  Added another button specifically for Defender/Stargate right by the player 1 stick.  Works really well, looks terrible!  I may have to keep it, but try to hid it as much as possible (black on black).

[Bender]

Do hardware shops typically sell premade jigs?  In particular, a jig like Bender's for routing rectangles of various sizes.  Google has found nothing good for me for this so far.

I've built a more complicated one since, but originally it was simply 4 pieces of wood wide enough for the router to run on. Since I use them for making templates I'd just screw them down to the template piece countersinking the screws so the router wouldn't hit them
super simple

I'm a bit surprised to find that the original Defender control panel feels like crap now.  I don't know how I was so stuck on leaf-switch buttons. . very very hard to use, and the joystick feels terrible, even though it has a new rebuild kit.  Doesn't help that I'm used to to the controls, but. . is still surprising.

I think with the U360 being taller, I actually wouldn't want the reverse button to be as close as it is on the Defender control panel.  I'll probably move the thumb buttons as close to the joystick as I can and adjust the other 6 buttons accordingly on my next prototype. 

I was surprised too, how much I've come to really like the feel of the U360's

[GaryMcT]

Ugh. . I'm so torn.  I really don't like it when I see Frankenstein control panels, and mine is starting to look like one!!!  Someone talk some sense into me.

[Bender]

you already have a dedicated Defender panel right?

you don't have to make one panel to play every game, that was the whole point to multiple panels, no?

"friends don't let friends build frakenpanels"

clean and simple plays better and feels better IMHO

[GaryMcT]

Haha!  True.  I do have a dedicated Defender panel.  It feels like crap now though, and I don't want to change a thing on it (I'm sentimental that way, and my collector friend would whoop ---my bottom---.)

Oooh, just had a thought.  What if I moved the thumb button up "a button" and used the top row of for the right three for the neo geo layout?  That would make it so that the thumb and defender button are roughly in the same place and can serve double-duty:  Hmmmm. . . . .

[GaryMcT]

Could leave it like it is and move the joystick lower so that it is in the right place relative to the thumb button?  Or I could just make a Stargate panel with a shortened U360 stick (is that even possible?  Haven't looked at it yet to see what it would take to shorten it) so that it is laid out just like Stargate.