GaryMcT's 2-player generic control panel layout

[GaryMcT]

I think after this prototype gets built, I'm going to have to start working on the routing for the joystick on the top.

[Bender]

Just to make your life more difficult a couple of things to think about

1. if you go with film as a CPO then you want to bottom mount the joystick, otherwise you can't get at it again, plus imperfections in the surface (the edges that you route out for example can show through the film as little bumps or ridges

2. after you get the prototype CP layed out the way you like, then design your art around that. Then get the art, attach it to the panel, then and only then should you drill the button holes other wise it is next to impossible to get the art around the buttons to line up perfectly

[GaryMcT]

Just to make your life more difficult a couple of things to think about

1. if you go with film as a CPO then you want to bottom mount the joystick, otherwise you can't get at it again, plus imperfections in the surface (the edges that you route out for example can show through the film as little bumps or ridges

2. after you get the prototype CP layed out the way you like, then design your art around that. Then get the art, attach it to the panel, then and only then should you drill the button holes other wise it is next to impossible to get the art around the buttons to line up perfectly

Ugh!!!  So Benderama has a bottom-mounted U360?   Did you end up using a longer stick to compensate?  (Wow, something seems really really wrong with that sentence. )  Not being able to get to the U360 would be bad.  I already need to take one of 'em out, take it apart, and put it back together in hopes of getting it to calibrate itself properly.

This is going to take me a while.

[Bender]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

[bkenobi]

I haven't had too many problems with hitting quit instead of pause, but that's probably because I'm the only one who uses the pause button.  My primary concern was keeping the players start/coin buttons separate from the 2 admin buttons as well as making it work with my artwork choices (groups of 2 buttons of a given distance apart).  If it were a big problem, I would probably write a script of some kind to only send quit if you held down the quit button for a couple seconds.

As for the FF question, yes it does send the other buttons too.  BUT, FF is only needed at the beginning or when you are already in the game and have started P1 anyway.  I have P1 Start + P1 Up mapped to menu (TAB) and that could be a problem.  HOWEVER, if you are going into the menu, you aren't really concerned about playing ATM anyway, so it's not an issue IMO.

[GaryMcT]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

Did you use something like the joystick mounting kit here to keep anything from poking out the top?

http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html#mountingkits

This routing job looks actually easier than the top mount. . . exciting!

[GaryMcT]

I haven't had too many problems with hitting quit instead of pause, but that's probably because I'm the only one who uses the pause button.  My primary concern was keeping the players start/coin buttons separate from the 2 admin buttons as well as making it work with my artwork choices (groups of 2 buttons of a given distance apart).  If it were a big problem, I would probably write a script of some kind to only send quit if you held down the quit button for a couple seconds.

As for the FF question, yes it does send the other buttons too.  BUT, FF is only needed at the beginning or when you are already in the game and have started P1 anyway.  I have P1 Start + P1 Up mapped to menu (TAB) and that could be a problem.  HOWEVER, if you are going into the menu, you aren't really concerned about playing ATM anyway, so it's not an issue IMO.

I could possibly modify Mame to be able to do something special for shift buttons such that their primary function doesn't trigger doesn't happen until you let go and only if it were never used for anything else.

[Bender]

I actually used the U-track mounts (they worked so well when installing the trackball I ordered some more special from Andy at Ultimarc) but those should work too as long as the insert isn't longer than 1/4" so the 5mm ones should work (if they were are tiny bit longer you could always grind or sand them down)
I drilled all the way through for the inserts then put the joystick in then bondoed the tiny divits that were left on top

I cut the polycarbonate film with an x-acto knife (very carefully of course)

here is a visual representation for what I'm talking about with the Top Vs Bottom mount distance. The top mount you loose 3/16 and bottom mount 1/4 a very negligible 1/16 more for the bottom mount and it's a lot easier to do IMO, though if you do bottom mounted AND did a lexan CPO you'd loose another 1/8 then you might want to think about the longer shaft

[Bender]

Yes?



So the polycarbonate is still thin enough to still be able to leave 1/8" in the MDF/wood for the tiny buttons to mount?

sorry missed that post it was 3:15 am for me

but yes it's thin enough to leave 1/8" of material for the buttons

the layout looks perfect!

[GaryMcT]

Oh man. . .the router is fun!   I think I could route on pieces of wood for hours.  Also, bottom mounting is extra awesome since my route there doesn't have to be neat.

If you had to have an angled side like this:



could you get a router bit to do that with a straight edge?  It's about a 24 degree angle from my measurement form my original one.

[Bender]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

[bkenobi]

There's one other way to do the angled cut if you are not able to do it with a table/circular saw.  I don't recommend it because it's truly a PITA!  But, you can use a belt sander and a couple lines marked on the top and bottom of your work piece. 

I did this for one part of my cabinet that was too narrow to use my circular saw on.  I should have cut things in a different order, but once it was cut, it was too late.  I actually marked to two lines and then clamped a couple sacrificial boards in place to make sure I was perfectly straight.  This took WAY too long compared to having the right tool/cutting in the right order.  It will work in a pinch though.

[GaryMcT]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

Hmmm, I may have to try that.  I'm not sure that I'm ready to invest in a table saw quite yet.  Maybe I should stick with leaving that bit off for now.

[GaryMcT]

There's one other way to do the angled cut if you are not able to do it with a table/circular saw.  I don't recommend it because it's truly a PITA!  But, you can use a belt sander and a couple lines marked on the top and bottom of your work piece. 

I did this for one part of my cabinet that was too narrow to use my circular saw on.  I should have cut things in a different order, but once it was cut, it was too late.  I actually marked to two lines and then clamped a couple sacrificial boards in place to make sure I was perfectly straight.  This took WAY too long compared to having the right tool/cutting in the right order.  It will work in a pinch though.

Don't have a belt sander!  (Yet!)

I sense a table saw in my future.

[GaryMcT]

humm, that's a bit tough (ha, ha) you'd have to find a 24 degree bit that was 3/4" deep, might be tough

I'd do it on a table saw or with a straight edge and circular saw (you can set an angle up to 45 on most of those)

this is as close as I could find that is at least 3/4 deep
you could just clamp a little scrap piece of wood to the bottom to run the bearing against (definitely do it in two passes though, trying to remove that much material at once could be hard on the router and dangerous)

This one looks like it ships faster:

http://www.amazon.com/85299M-Diameter-64-Inch-Carbide-Chamfer/dp/B000GY9UW4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1249634478&sr=8-2

Good?

I think tomorrow may very well be the day where I actually try to cut a straight line using the router.   I'm out of plywood now, so I may start in on the MDF as well.

[Bender]

yeah, that bit should do it the cutting depth is 59/64 so you should be good for 3/4 stock

do you know anyone with a table saw? I'd cut a few blanks then go use someone's table saw to cut that exact angle on them

you'll have fun with MDF it routes much nicer than plywood (just wear a respirator or at the very least a dust mask the dust is no good for you)

[GaryMcT]

YAY for the local stores!  Found one of these:

http://www.prontohome.com/compare/amana-49410-22-1-2-10305089456

at a local shop:

http://www.eastsidesaw.com/

My wife is picking it up now so that I can have more fun with the router tonight.

[GaryMcT]

Having a great time working on this!

I got the 22.5 degree chamfer bit.  Works perfectly!  I was also very happy to find that the MDF that I bought isn't 2 feet wide, but instead 2' 7/16", which is exactly the width of the original control panel!  (I guess that wasn't by accident when they designed it originally).  Anyways, I can get more than 2 out of a single piece of MDF now.

I ended up using some buttons holes that came out really well in a plywood prototype as a template to clamp onto the MDF and use the drill press and forstner bit to cut holes in the MDF.  Here's the progress so far.  I wish it weren't after 10 or I'd try to finish up tonight!

[bkenobi]

Nice job with that chamfer, looks really nice.  Is it just me, or does the button pattern for P1 not line up with that of P2?  Maybe I just need some sleep, but I swear it looks twisted.

[GaryMcT]

Nice job with that chamfer, looks really nice.  Is it just me, or does the button pattern for P1 not line up with that of P2?  Maybe I just need some sleep, but I swear it looks twisted.

it is lined up, but doesn't look like it in the image. The perspective projection is making it look off

[GaryMcT]

Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder if I should round the front instead of using t-molding?  Might allow me to not have it so long in the front for palms. Yup, stealing more ideas from Bender. . Plus at this point any excuse to get a new router bit is a good thing. . My wife said that the mom and pop local shop that she picked the chamfer bit up from has a ridiculous selection of router bits. I know where I'm going this weekend!

[Bender]

nice work so far

can't say that was my idea, I'm sure I saw it on this forum and ripped it of just like the thousands of other idea I ripped from here

I'd try both and see which is more comfortable and looks best

it's so satisfying when it starts coming together by your own hand

I think we have antother addict

[GaryMcT]

yes, I have the u360 bottom mounted but I route out the back so it's only approximately 1/4" below the surface in the end pretty close to the 1/16th you'd do for top mounting plus 1/8 lexan added up to 3/16 so in reality your only talkin about 1/16 to 1/8 lower than top mounting

I didn't go with the longer shaft

I've though about top mounting and you can take the 360's mostly apart without removing them, so if you bondoed the top and sanded if flush, that would work, you just couldn't change the stick if you wanted to later on(without some difficulty) though your panel is pretty straight forward so you just might want to make a new one if you were going to change sticks anyway

What size router bit did you use to route this?  Your corners are pretty sharp, or did you use something other than the router to get the corners?

[bkenobi]

Put a small radius on the front corners AND t-mold it.  Take a look at mine.  That's exactly what the original Area51 did and it works really well IMO.

[Bender]

I made a template out of a scrap of MDF and made the opening 1/8 bigger on both sides  (1/16 all the way around)
then used this template bushing and this bit

you can also get this and make perfect corners

[GaryMcT]

I picked up a 3/4" long 5/16" diameter pattern bit today to route the joystick cavities. I'll make a template for that when I get home.

Do you route the joystick cavity first and then drill the hole for the handle or vice versatile?  Any advantage to going either way?

[GaryMcT]

What's the best way to make the template for the joystick routing?  Router and clamped straight edge for each side?  I just failed miserably at making one out of plywood.  I think it's MDF for me from here on out.

[Bender]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

[GaryMcT]

I made a jig for cutting squares and rectangle templates it looks like this just 4 strips of wood you just slide them to the desired shape and size then
you can either screw, glue, doublesided tape, or clamp them down

I like doing the hole after to make sure it's centered
I take the metal plate off the joystick and use to trace and after the area is routed out, I screw it in THEN mark the center and drill it

Hey that's a nice jig!

I finished making the joystick template out of 1/2" plywood a bit ago.  I marked the rectangle and used an angle clamped down once for each corner and template routed the template.  Certainly good enough for something on the backside of the panel.  I made the template such that the distance from one of the edges is the same as on the control panel to help with lining it up.

Next thing I did was to completely screw up the MDF prototype I was working on!  I don't know what I was thinking, but instead of just routing to the correct depth for the joystick, I decided to drill some starter holes all the way through. . ummmm, FAIL!!!!!!

I'll start over again tomorrow.  With all the templates and such building up, I'm getting faster at this at least.

[GaryMcT]

Looks like I can actually finish the one that I'm working on and have it be ugly where one of the joysticks is at.  That'll give me some more practice at least.

[bkenobi]

Yup, you will have to try a few times more than likely.  I did quite a few tries in plywood to get the button layout the way I liked it.  Then, when I was happy, I did MDF.  I was lucky that I didn't screw anything up too bad that I had to start over.  However, when I was done, I decided to sand the top of the CP with a belt sander for some stupid reason (the first time I picked up that tool mind you).  I converted a nice even surface into a horribly, uneven mess so that the paint wasn't going to look right.  I ended up having to put contact paper over it before I dropped on my lexan.  It gives the same effect, it's just not what I originally planned.

[GaryMcT]

Here are some progress pics, including my drill-through screw-up.  If I don't mess anything else up, hopefully I can get this one to the point of being playable tomorrow!

The JLW is there as a placeholder for a U360 that is in my previous prototype.

I went ahead and drill the screws all the way through until I get some of the ones that mount underneath.

You can see some errors from the template that I made, but I figure that's okay since this isn't visible.  I may end up making another template, but maybe not.

[Bender]

exexpt for the sarter holes
looks WAY better than my first try at routing a joystick cavity!

if you had to you could bondo those holes, but since one is where the screw goes I'd redo it, think of that as a practice one

does the hight of the joystick feel right?

[GaryMcT]

I think I may prefer the joystick this way than on the top actually.  I haven't had a chance to play on it yet, but from feeling it, it seems like it makes it easier to rest my hand on the control panel while using the joystick.

On a related note, I really can't play with an xbox 360 controller anymore. . . my hands are all tingly this morning from playing about 30 minutes last night!  I suspect my next project may very well be a 360 controller conversion.  Has anyone wired a U360 up to a hacked 360 controller yet for analog?

[Triangel7D]

Gary -- where did you get that red octagonal JLW restrictor? I didn't know such a thing existed! I'd love to get my hands on a couple of those.

[Triangel7D]

Wait. Figured it out. It's an Ultimarc product that's JLW compatible (hence my confusion), right? Sorry, should have dug around before I asked!

[GaryMcT]

Yup, that's the one!    I need to spend some time comparing them to the circular restrictors to figure out which one I want.

[Bender]

I think I may prefer the joystick this way than on the top actually.  I haven't had a chance to play on it yet, but from feeling it, it seems like it makes it easier to rest my hand on the control panel while using the joystick.

On a related note, I really can't play with an xbox 360 controller anymore. . . my hands are all tingly this morning from playing about 30 minutes last night!  I suspect my next project may very well be a 360 controller conversion.  Has anyone wired a U360 up to a hacked 360 controller yet for analog?

There is a company called Quasimodo or something like that that has done it I think they want big bucks for a panel that doesn't look like it would play very well, but the fact is it is possible
I've been wanting to do this for a long time and had some brief discussions with HarumaN (who does great x360 controler hacks)
anyway I feel like with the combined knowledge on this forum we should be able to get it done.
this may be a start
here is a review of the latest model, apparently the earlier ones did not work so well

maybe we should start a thread to recruit some help

already thinking about the next project are you?

[GaryMcT]

Hmmm, I may be interested in getting involved with the "make 360 analog work with a U360" project.   I don't know if I'll be able to help much, but anyways.  Is there any sort of native analog out on the U360?  I remember seeing a pin in output mode that could be used as raw analog out, but the firmware doesn't do it I don't think.

Kinda bums me out not to be able to play with the xbox 360 controller more without hurting.  There's a whole lot of playtesting at work that I miss out of as a result.  Weird to work on a game and not play it much, you know?

Yeah, I'm getting addicted to this stuff.  I have a feeling a second control panel for my machine will happen before I'd personally do anything for the 360 (unless it already gets rolling by other folks).  I wouldn't mind having a single-player focused control panel with more variety on it.

So do other folks have problems getting the U360 to calibrate properly for them, or am I an exception?  One of mine works fairly reliably all the time, and the other one can't seem to calibrate itself.  When I was moving it from one control panel to the other, I plugged it in by itself thinking that I'd take it apart, put it back together, etc, to see if I could get it to calibrate.  It calibrated just fine.  Now that I have it back in a control panel again, it's always calibrating to the right a bit, which really doesn't work so well.

[GaryMcT]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. . the new layout is really great.  Just played some two-player with my wife.  The only problem so far is that now any time you end up using the right stick with your right hand (Robotron, Pacman if you map it on your right hand, etc.) you end up resting your hand on the player two thumb button.  I'll probably want to come up with a way to fix that.  Maybe the thumb button needs to be moved to the right a bit.  Not sure yet.

Once I get the exit/coin/start buttons hooked up, I'll likely get some friends to come over and playtest some two-player games.

Here are some progress pics (including my drill-through screwup and the channels to get wires to the exit/coin/start buttons):