What are the tradeoffs between keyboard and joypad encoding?

[GaryMcT]

Here are some that I know of:

1) Game like Street Fighter IV only allow one player to be keyboard encoded, and you can't have a player split between two different interfaces (ie. U360 joypad for stick, keyboard encoding for buttons).
2) Some front ends may not work with joypad encoding?  Are there examples of this?

Can you think of more?

Thanks!
Gary

PS:  In particular, I'm trying to figure out if I'm better off with:

1) Ultrastik 360 connected via USB as a joypad input with buttons hooked through ipac4.
2) Ultrastik 360 connected via USB as a joypad with the buttons hanging off of the U360 as buttons from the same joypad.

[Dazz]

I'm sortta in the same boat with this same question...  I just installed my U360's but still wondering how I want to run the buttons.  I have the wire harnesses ready, but I really wish I could keep the functionality of both the U360's and the IPAC4.  wish there was a switch that could be pressed that will just tell it to send joy codes or send via the IPAC.

[GaryMcT]

Another thing to consider is which set of buttons you want to be able to be shifted by other buttons, or if you want joystick directions to be shiftable.  In my case, I have 7-buttons per player plus a player start that I'm considering plugging into the U360 so that the start button can be used to shift all of the rest of it with the admin buttons connected to the ipac.  Not sure if this is the best way to go yet though.  It's easy to wire it up that way though, so I may go ahead and try it unless I hear of definite downsides to using joypad inputs.

[Dazz]

Crap... I completely forgot about my shifted buttons.  I have several of my buttons that use shift functions.  Coins and other various admin functions.  I'm going to loose all of them just because of the U360's. 

[GaryMcT]

You can use shifted buttons with the U360, although I'm not sure if you can shift buttons on one 360 with a shift button on the other one.  The problem case for me is that I can't shift buttons on the ipac with buttons on the u360 and vice versa.  I think that's okay though as long as the player 1 start button is connected to the U360 along with the other player 1 buttons.

[bkenobi]

There are things that can be done to get around these limitations, but they are not quite as easy as simply setting up a shifted button.  One option is to use a script (AHK or AI are typically used).  This is not as good an option because it takes up CPU cycles and feels more like a hack than a solution.  You can also connect controls to more than one button if you use diodes correctly.

The only thing you won't be able to do with the U360 is connect the joystick switches to the IPAC because it doesn't have switches!

[GaryMcT]

I'm going to proceed with 7 buttons + 1 start button hooked up to the U360 and see if I run into any problems.

[Ginsu Victim]

How are you giving credits? Shifted function?

[GaryMcT]

Ah, I forgot to mention that part.  The rest of the buttons are going to be connected to the ipac4. 

[Ginsu Victim]

oh yeah, duh. I forgot about that. I'm considering doing the same for mine.

[u_rebelscum]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

[GaryMcT]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Awesome. . didn't know that.

I'm going to proceed with 8 buttons connected to U360 and rest to ipac to deal with the SFIV problem.

[Dazz]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Well, I got my 360's installed and wired up.  I ended up using the wiring harness and wired up 7 buttons and 8 to my start button.  I did both players 1 & 2 via the U360's and have players 3 & 4 via the IPAC.

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

[GaryMcT]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Well, I got my 360's installed and wired up.  I ended up using the wiring harness and wired up 7 buttons and 8 to my start button.  I did both players 1 & 2 via the U360's and have players 3 & 4 via the IPAC.

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

Have you tried using the U360 software to do the combos instead of using the builtin Mame functionality to do this?

[Dazz]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Well, I got my 360's installed and wired up.  I ended up using the wiring harness and wired up 7 buttons and 8 to my start button.  I did both players 1 & 2 via the U360's and have players 3 & 4 via the IPAC.

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

Have you tried using the U360 software to do the combos instead of using the builtin Mame functionality to do this?

What software will configure the U360 buttons?  I don't see anywhere in the Ultramap application that even mentions buttons.

[GaryMcT]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Well, I got my 360's installed and wired up.  I ended up using the wiring harness and wired up 7 buttons and 8 to my start button.  I did both players 1 & 2 via the U360's and have players 3 & 4 via the IPAC.

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

Have you tried using the U360 software to do the combos instead of using the builtin Mame functionality to do this?

What software will configure the U360 buttons?  I don't see anywhere in the Ultramap application that even mentions buttons.

If you have a particular version of the firmware, button 8 is always shift and turns button 1 into button 9, 2 into 10, etc.  You might actually be running into that.  I can't seem to find the page on the ultimarc site, but if you have a newer U360, it is doing this already.  If you have an older one, you can upgrade to the newer firmware.  If you have a newer one and don't want this functionality, you can downgrade to the previous version.

[Dazz]

If you're using just mame, you don't need shifted buttons.  Mame can do (simultaneous) combos through remapping.  Mame can do combos accross multiple devices, such as Up on joystick1 + key "T" on keyboard + Left mouse button = right on player 2.

I use mame combos instead of shift.  Frontends and other emus, OTOH, might not, so you might need the hardware shift. 

Well, I got my 360's installed and wired up.  I ended up using the wiring harness and wired up 7 buttons and 8 to my start button.  I did both players 1 & 2 via the U360's and have players 3 & 4 via the IPAC.

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

Have you tried using the U360 software to do the combos instead of using the builtin Mame functionality to do this?

What software will configure the U360 buttons?  I don't see anywhere in the Ultramap application that even mentions buttons.

If you have a particular version of the firmware, button 8 is always shift and turns button 1 into button 9, 2 into 10, etc.  You might actually be running into that.  I can't seem to find the page on the ultimarc site, but if you have a newer U360, it is doing this already.  If you have an older one, you can upgrade to the newer firmware.  If you have a newer one and don't want this functionality, you can downgrade to the previous version.

ah ha!  I just found it.  Looks like it is firmware 2.4.  Strange, because I thought I installed this firmware already.  Time to go try it out.

Ok, I upgraded both joys to 2.4 and now have the shift functionality.  I edited my mame control cfg to use Joy button 9 as coin, but still has the same problem as before.

I have my controls as follows:
Player 1 start = button 8 (Shift)
Player 1 button 1 = button 0 (when shifted = button 9)

I have MAME set as:
Player 1 start = button 8
Player 1 button 1 = button 0
Player 1 Coin = button 9

So, to enter a credit I would hold down player 1 Start and tap player 1 button 1. 

The problem lies as soon as I release the Start button the game will start....  With this setup I cannot start a 2 player game such as Q*Bert or Ms. Pac-Man.  I would really like to have the shift functionality like I had with the IPAC4 and not have to install dedicated coin buttons.

[severdhed]

i have my u360 set up the same way, and i have the same problem as well, so what i did was connect two of my buttons to the mouse encoder, which not only gave me mouse buttons to use with my trackball, but also opened up two inputs on my u360s, so i could use them as coin buttons.

[u_rebelscum]

I am noticing that MAME does not like combo buttons...  I have start plus player 1 button 1 set for coin and player 1 start as start for player 1.  MAME does not like this... It enters credits when player 1 start is held and tapping player 1 button 1, but as soon as you release the start button it accepts it as start.  So I cannot start 2 player games with it mapped as suggested above.

Have you tried holding down P1B1 and then tapping P1 start with this setup?  Mame doesn't care which button is pressed first, just if both are down at the same time, and P1B1 usually doesn't do anything until a game starts playing.  Hmm... you still might dave problems unless you map start as "P1 Start Not P1B1" also.  (To do a Not, press the button you don't want twice quickly after you pressed the button you do want: enter, P1 Start button, P1B1, P1B1.)

Even with this "Not" part added, however, if you press the button order like you discribed, you'd still have the two player problem.  And the "Not" probably won't help your shifted u360 config.  I say probably because it might work if: you press and hold start, press and hold P1B1, release start, then release P1B1.  I say might because if depends on how fast the u360 updates it's state, how fast/often mame polls the state, and maybe even when you release the start button compared to the prior two.

Also, this means you have to be careful what combos you map, especially for exit (default mapped to esc key).

[blind_dado]

You don't have to necessarily choose between joypad or key encoding.  You can hook up a single button microswitch to both the u360 harness and the Ipac.  When I press my player 1 coin, for example, it registers both a "button 8" press and a "5" on the keyboard.

Also, if you have everything hooked up as joypad buttons, xPadder can take care of mapping key inputs whenever you need them.  It is an excellent program.