XBOX modders caught. Might be facing Prison time if convicted.

[Thenasty]

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/01/5561705-xbox-modder-could-spend-three-years-in-prison?gt1=43001

[Donkbaca]

Lame, it should be fair use

[Bootay]

Well the problem is they were charging money to do so and treating it as a business or side business.

[Donkbaca]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

[wp34]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

[pinballwizard79]

Wait didnt Bill Gates steal something & sell it for money too?

[Ed_McCarron]

Then again, the gov't lawyers may end up in hot water instead...

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/xbox-judge-riled/

[Bootay]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

I don't disagree at all. 

[DaveMMR]

I guess they have to make an example out of someone...

I completely understand the issue that MS (or Sony, Nintendo, etc.) has with people modifying their consoles, but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

Of course, IANAL and I'm sure the prosecution has DMCA verbiage on their side (along with the whole license agreements no one reads), but it's still kind of messed up. 

[Crazy Cooter]

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

Sure you can they're called "test pipes" and are marketed for "Off road use only".

[SavannahLion]

Finally, we have a judge who at least understands how out of control the whole DMCA has become.

People, in general, have completely lost touch with what it means to be er... I don't know how to describe it really. How to hack. There's this ultra disgusting mentality by the general population that hacking is bad, evil and illegal. Yet you have a ---smurf--- like Ken McGrail who is testifying against this kid modding 360's and Ken McGrail himself did the same ---smurfing--- thing!

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks. These are the same clueless twits that are more than willing to stand in line as TSA agents bombard their bodies with X-Rays (there's a reason why one wears lead at the doctors) or let TSA agents fondle their pathetic excuses for a penis.

There's a clear divide amongst the general population. The group of people who understand... well things. They move forward and improve their lives in a manner that all people should be able to. Then there's the pathetic brain dead sheep ---smurfs--- who willingly listen to whatever the media tells them never once realizing that what is "illegal" for them is perfectly acceptable by the very people spouting this nonsense. I feel like we're surrounded by illiterate serfs listening to, and believing, the nonsense the world is still flat.

It would be nice to move into the next century during my life time.

[SNAAKE]

woo I am next lol.. guess I should never bump my thread again



this seems pretty accurate and the morons that dont understand technology might "get it".
Crippen’s lawyers intend to call Andrew “Bunnie” Huang in a bid to make that point.
“Basically, what he did was insufficient on his own to violate anything,” Huang said in a recent telephone interview.

[Thenasty]

don't worry Snake, no RAT @ BYOAC 

You can MOD my console anytime.

[Ed_McCarron]

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks.

Many years ago, I tried to educate people about the difference between hackers, crackers, and phreakers.

I gave up.

[SavannahLion]

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks.

Many years ago, I tried to educate people about the difference between hackers, crackers, and phreakers.

I gave up.

Thank you. Nice to know I'm not the only one.

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

 Gee... Did you actually... I dunno, actually read the article?  Maybe actually realize that actually isn't the basis of the lawsuit. Oh wait better yet realize that Ken McGrail did the exact same ---smurfing--- thing and he's the prosecuting expert witness?

How does that phrase go? Something about a black kettle?

[Kevin Mullins]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

“Basically, what he did was insufficient on his own to violate anything,” Huang said in a recent telephone interview.[/b]

Exactly.
The modding “service” part has nothing to do with what the owner of the unit does with it after that.

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.
No exceptions.

If that were true, then why isn’t this case about that ?
This guy is being tried for giving the machines the “ability” to do that, he is not being tried for any actual pirated software.
Totally bogus.

[Malenko]

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

I mod 360s. I do not sell the games. Of course I dont do it as a business, I just do it for friends and what not. Also, I dont charge for the mod. I also own more 360 games then you that I bought new.

[Ed_McCarron]

Even if you just do the modchip and don't supply ANY pirated games, you are supplying a pirated version of the xboxes bios, right?  I've always wondered why they didn't make a fuss about that.

[Malenko]

That mean Im not like that guy, or that its not 100% of the time?

[SavannahLion]

Oh good. You did. Now how about posting relevant comments instead of your usual ass ones?

[wp34]

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

Sure you can they're called "test pipes" and are marketed for "Off road use only".

You quotes kinda make my point.   

[Dartful Dodger]

I understand that this guy is breaking the law by modifying the system to get around copyrights and user agreements, but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

A couple of months ago some guy planned on setting off a bomb in Wrigleyville during a Cubs game and Homeland Security is going after a college student who planned on using pirated software.

[ChadTower]

That mean Im not like that guy, or that its not 100% of the time?

It means you're not selling a modding service and thus not a "guy like this".

[SavannahLion]

I understand that this guy is breaking the law by modifying the system to get around copyrights and user agreements, but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

A couple of months ago some guy planned on setting off a bomb in Wrigleyville during a Cubs game and Homeland Security is going after a college student who planned on using pirated software.

I predicted something along this line a few years ago on a different forum (gamespy i think). I'll see if I can find my notes. IIRC there's a set of laws that interact in such a way that defines hackers/crackers/breakers/pirates as terrorists. I don't think the term hacker is actually defined in the dmca, but I believe it is used. The definition appears elsewhere in law and it is lumped in with terrorist activities.

I think the intent was to have some mechanism for dealing with Chinese black hats attempting to .penetrate whatever passes for DARPA now.

[Benevolance]

If that were true, then why isn’t this case about that ?

Probably for the same reason that trials involving organized crime are usually based around tax evasion, rather than any other sort of criminal activity. Not that modding an Xbox ranks up their with the mafia. But it's likely more convenient for the government to tackle the issue this way, and they may have hoped to give the DMCA more anti-piracy teeth with a favorable ruling.

[SNAAKE]

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

maybe not 100% of the time. half the people take the chance...

personally I think its really..really dumb to even consider games. there is no "case" if you sell games. guaranteed to get in trouble.

[atomikbohm]

Alright I'll admit the nuances of this argument .. I mean discussion, are lost on me so can someone please answer a question for me?

My understandings / assumptions:

1) As I understand it the law has provisions for the owner of a software license (i.e. a X-Box game) to make 1 copy to use as a backup to protect his / her investment in the software in case of damage.  Correct?


The Fictional situation / The Questions

My 7 year old picks up my Xbox while the disk is spinning and the Xbox trashes my game. <Boo hoo> Luckily, I made a backup <Yeah Me>, But my unmodified XBox won't play it <Boo Hoo>  

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

It sounds to me like Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo are breaking the law (or at least the spirit of the Backup Law) by making it impossible to play your 1 legal back up.  That being the case why aren't they being publicly crucified to serve as a warning to other companies by the federal government?  

Those defending Microsoft and the Prosecution please enlighten me to the error of my reasoning.

[Kevin Mullins]

but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

Me either ......

Even if you just do the modchip and don't supply ANY pirated games, you are supplying a pirated version of the xboxes bios, right?

Now that may be a valid point.
I wouldn't call it a "pirated" version of the bios since it isn't a true copy of it.
But I guess modifying it based on their original software might be a problem.
 

My 7 year old picks up my Xbox while the disk is spinning and the Xbox trashes my game. <Boo hoo> Luckily, I made a backup <Yeah Me>, But my unmodified XBox won't play it <Boo Hoo> 
 

Exactly. 

[SavannahLion]

@atomikbohm

Quotes aren't working for me so....

It depends on which area of the law and what specific hardware you're talking about. There is a specific clause in copyright law that allows for backups based on the volatile medium in use at the time. Nintendo (amongst others) have argued that this does not apply to "non-volatile" medium eg cartridges. This position was later bolstered by laws like the DMCA that made circumventing copyright measures illegal. I don't believe the strength of the DMCA comes from the actual act of copying. It comes from the steps one must take to bypass or cripple the so-called security measures to protect that content. Compared to other laws still in place, the DMCA is an aberration that violates the very foundations of the U.S. and who we [strike]were[/strike] are.

Your logic is reasonable with exception to replacement. There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage. That is the purpose of that law. To protect the consumer. The problem is that the DMCA isn't budging because media giants (read: lobbyists) like it too much. Anybody worth their salt can see the conflicts. But until the nation can stand together and say ---fudgesicle--- you it's only going to become more draconian

[atomikbohm]

There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage.

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

By "replaced" I was refering to the problem of being allowed to create 1 copy that you can't use.  So if you can't use your copy.  Where are you going to get a copy you can use.  After all you are entitled under the law...

[Ed_McCarron]

There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage.

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

By "replaced" I was refering to the problem of being allowed to create 1 copy that you can't use.  So if you can't use your copy.  Where are you going to get a copy you can use.  After all you are entitled under the law...

All they'd need to do is start a procedure where you mail back your damaged disc and you get a new one.  Problem solved.

Of course, they'd rather you buy another one.  Thats why they don't.

[SNAAKE]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/crippen-dismissed/

yeah...


guessing they wanna get even more evidence of this horrendous "hacking crime" and get some more homeland security and stuff. maybe jack bauer will step in and cap a knee or two lol..

[jennifer]

        These machines are capable of much more than most, guidance systems for example. Is it any wonder homeland security is involved?

[Donkbaca]

yeah, they send you a replacement disc for 20 bucks, and its only for games MS actually publishes

[DaveMMR]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

For the record, I spoke tongue partially in cheek.  I'm aware of the more legitimate uses for modding.   Heck, I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation and some homebrew games.  Conversely, I have a friend who modded his 360 and tells me how he downloads 10 games a week that he burns to disc.  He thinks he's being clever; I think he's just really cheap.   Most people I see with modded consoles, however, still have a store-bought library of games and use the mods responsibly.

But, as I see, my original point - about not assuming wrongdoing is taking place, or at least wrongdoing worthy of a criminal trial - was not lost on the more level-headed parties in this trial, thank God.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation

\\

Oh good, I always thought playing roms were playing pirated games...  thanks for clearing that up.

[DaveMMR]

I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation

\\

Oh good, I always thought playing roms were playing pirated games...  thanks for clearing that up.

Fair enough.  You're right.  I should have said, I didn't play pirated Xbox games.  (Also, lest it seem I'm throwing stones - it wasn't for any "this is wrong" type-reasons.  Just wasn't playing much Xbox at the time) 

[Dartful Dodger]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.

If the game was damaged when you bought it, the store you bought it from would give you another one.  

The members of this site are playing games that are 30+ years old so our view on this subject is skewed, but games are no different than any other product. Games eventually get shelved, sold or thrown out.  Games are made to be replaced and expire, just like everything else.  If you want to collect games you can do what the nerds with the Star Wars dolls do and buy two. One to play with and one to keep in its original packaging.

What he did was illegal, but unless he's modding the XBox to use in a nuclear missile, this case doesn't require Homeland Security.

[Ed_McCarron]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

[SNAAKE]

dont think I ever played any bootleg xbox games either. it was for media center and emulators thats it. and I had legit/store bought games for xbox live.

 

[Malenko]

That mean Im not like that guy, or that its not 100% of the time?

It means you're not selling a modding service and thus not a "guy like this".

I used to charge for the mod, but never sold games. I only changed to doing it for friends because I'm too afraid of someone saying I broke their 360.

[WhereEaglesDare]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.
What he did was illegal, but unless he's modding the XBox to use in a nuclear missile, this case doesn't require Homeland Security.

So by the same logic, Tobacco Water Pipes should be illegal because you can put weed in them.  Swisher Sweets also should be illegal.

Why not just outlaw CD Burners?  The only reason you would ever burn a CD is to pirate software, right?  Everything else is just an excuse!

[SavannahLion]

Sadly, PBJ and Artful are both missing the point. It's not about roms or illegal copies. It's about buying a product (the 360) and having the choice to do what you damn well please with it. If I want to shell out $300+ and turn my 360 into a functioning toilet, a welder, and a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- simulator that just happens to play games, then so be it.

Everyone here saw MS's position on their Kinect and how they backpedaled. Look at how Sony ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- things up with their PS3 and the beowulf clusters.

There are perfectly legitimate reasons for modding consoles. If a bunch of greedy fat cats and their overly eager lackey want to sit there and tell me that I can't mod my console but its perfectly acceptable for them to do it. Well, all I have to say is let the world wide grand "---fudgesicle--- you" commence.

[Kevin Mullins]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

Bingo !!
My modded XBOX is used to stream movies and music from our pc's to the tv...sometimes surf Youtube for kicks....I don't even play games on it and it has "all the bells and whistles".
I have two more I plan to do for the exact same reason in two other rooms.

Now anything XBOX360 related, I could care less. (since I don't play the games anyways)

[ChadTower]

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

Pirated movies.  Whatever.   

[saint]

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

Pirated movies.  Whatever.   

I have several hundred movies on my media server. Not a single one is pirated. They are all ripped from my original and safely kept DVDs. My originals are safe from the destruction my kids heap upon media, and movies can be accessed anywhere in the house there's a network connection. I don't use a modded console for that, but I considered it.

Not everyone is a pirate...

 

[Vanguard]

cough...Dragon*Con..cough...

[jennifer]

          Kids will always try to make the paddles bigger, tear it down and "fix" it, and good, the few that eventually figger it out are the ones that
 are smart enough to know the legal/moral  consequences of there actions. This guy [as a adult]  had  the gonads to actually charge for his
 services, and gets caught.... I just can"t understand why.

[ark_ader]

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

Pirated movies.  Whatever.   

I have several hundred movies on my media server. Not a single one is pirated. They are all ripped from my original and safely kept DVDs. My originals are safe from the destruction my kids heap upon media, and movies can be accessed anywhere in the house there's a network connection. I don't use a modded console for that, but I considered it.

Not everyone is a pirate...

 

+1

[SavannahLion]

They are all ripped from my original and safely kept DVDs.

Which was illegal under the DMCA.

 

And where are your wings?

[saint]

cough...Dragon*Con..cough...

Heh.

[saint]

They are all ripped from my original and safely kept DVDs.

Which was illegal under the DMCA.

 

Debatable, but not the same thing as piracy by any means.

[jennifer]

          Xbox modding was the thread, after reading it [again] without getting political, it seems msnbc, a investor of microsoft is the spearhead,
in California, in L.A. piracy is a problem but not in this case so it seems. Given the red death of a older xbox why even bother with a mod?
Go buy a new one and hack it up, besides the cost, service plan gone [tampering] what do you have in the end anyway. The judge even says WTF.
          As for the the rest of this anti/pirate, I am truly amused.... Oh yes you have pleased the queen!

[saint]

          As for the the rest of this anti/pirate, I am truly amused.... Oh yes you have pleased the queen!

Delusions of grandeur do not make one a queen.

[ChadTower]

Not everyone is a pirate...

"Not everyone" isn't much of a sample size.  The vast majority of modders are pirates.  We've all been around long enough to know this.  Jim actually hit it on the head earlier - people need to accept the moral implications of their actions and stop rationalizing.  Wanting it, and being able to get it, doesn't make it more right.  Do it and accept what it means or don't do it.

And before anyone asks, yes, I've ripped a couple of rented DVDs in my day.  It doesn't bother me.  I don't have a MAME machine because as a software developer the idea of pirated ROMs does bother me.  I have several modded Xboxes to watch those movies on but have no pirated Xbox games.

[Malenko]

It doesn't bother me.  I don't have a MAME machine because as a software developer the idea of pirated ROMs does bother me. 

thought it was because you couldnt even load the ---smurfing--- MDF?

[Malenko]

He couldn't fit it in next to the over 100 Xboxes you've hacked for close personal friends and family.

OMG You can play back ups on a red ring kit?!!???!?111?!!1?

cause that's what Ive done over 100 of.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Fight Fight Fight Fight

[Malenko]

link me up where I posted that Ive modded 100s of xbox360s

[Malenko]

 

Better go revise that post history.

Incase you guys dont wanna search, like jim doesnt, this is the thread and post hes talking about. Which was a RRoD thread, and had nothing to do with firmware flashing

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=106880.40

oh I completely agree its better to have the right amount. but with 360s its better to err on the side of caution; I've fixed well over 100 xbox 360s.

[Malenko]

Where you can clearly see that I stated that I did hundreds of them. The post your citing is out of context, I was speaking about my modding my OWN systems. By "still do" I meant updating my consoles. That entire thread was about owning a soldering iron despite the ability to softmod consoles.

So again, please link to my post where I said I modded hundreds of consoles.

[jennifer]

I could use a couple hundred modded consules for my own personal use. How much would you charge?

[Malenko]

Ask snaaake?

[ChadTower]

thought it was because you couldnt even load the ---smurfing--- MDF?

In a debate on the general concept Malenko chooses to go straight to defending only himself and resorts to tired old personal attacks from outside of context.

How many think he protests just a bit too much?

[Malenko]

And how many people think Chad is an expert in far too many feilds?

Is there anything you don't do other than build MAME cabs?


I chose to defend only me because Jim attacked only me. The guy on trial didn't do anything wrong and I don't forsee him getting in any trouble, but ultimately it's not up to me to decide.

[ark_ader]

Not everyone is a pirate...

"Not everyone" isn't much of a sample size.  The vast majority of modders are pirates.  We've all been around long enough to know this.  Jim actually hit it on the head earlier - people need to accept the moral implications of their actions and stop rationalizing.  Wanting it, and being able to get it, doesn't make it more right.  Do it and accept what it means or don't do it.

And before anyone asks, yes, I've ripped a couple of rented DVDs in my day.  It doesn't bother me.  I don't have a MAME machine because as a software developer the idea of pirated ROMs does bother me.  I have several modded Xboxes to watch those movies on but have no pirated Xbox games.

You post stating that the vast majority of modders are pirates, yet you say that pirated roms bothers you, even though you have modded several xboxes.

That doesn't make any sense.  Does it?  Especially when you "obtained" BAED roms to play in your modded xboxes. 

Like you I buy all my commercial Xbox games.  Retired 8/16 bit console games are fair play in my book, for personal use.

I'm sure you have quite a [legitimate] collection, but I do not believe you do not have a Mame library in your PC/Xbox, whatever, regardless of your [unbelievable] self-imposed professional constraints.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Lets all go to the lobby... and get ourselves a snack!

[ChadTower]

That doesn't make any sense.  Does it?  Especially when you "obtained" BAED roms to play in your modded xboxes.  

Heh, I did that.  I wanted to see if the emulators worked well enough so my kids could play the NES SMB games without hassling with a blinky NES.  It doesn't follow the letter of the law but yes, I own about 10 copies of SMB and 5 each of SMB2/3, so it does follow the spirit.  The emulator isn't fast enough so we probably played that disc 3 times.

Retired 8/16 bit console games are fair play in my book, for personal use.

They are sold for use on the Wii Virtual Console.  That makes the software very much still revenue generating intellectual property.

I'm sure you have quite a [legitimate] collection, but I do not believe you do not have a Mame library in your PC/Xbox, whatever, regardless of your [unbelievable] self-imposed professional constraints.

You can believe what you want.  I only own one raster vid and really don't have much interest in them.  My whole collection, other than a Berzerk/Frenzy, is Atari vectors and pins.  I plan on eventually building a couple VectorMAME cabs and I'll deal with the morality of it when the time comes.  What I won't do is march around pretending I didn't pirate the games.  That's my whole point.  Every person can choose what they do but if one isn't honest with everybody else at least that person should be honest with himself.

Lets all go to the lobby... and get ourselves a snack!

[language warning]

[gnateye]

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

Pirated movies.  Whatever.   

I have several hundred movies on my media server. Not a single one is pirated. They are all ripped from my original and safely kept DVDs. My originals are safe from the destruction my kids heap upon media, and movies can be accessed anywhere in the house there's a network connection. I don't use a modded console for that, but I considered it.

Not everyone is a pirate...

+1

+2, i have 3 modded original Xboxes that just run XMBC, to play my legally owned and ripped music and movies, anywhere in my house. its much cheaper to buy a 20$ xbox (or three) and do a softmod, then to buy a HTPC or any of the set top boxes floating around,

but,

i agree the heart of the matter is whether we as product OWNERS can do whatever we want to our "purchased products". we are modders and tinkerers, we are curious about how things work and how they can be made better, or used more to our personal needs.

the double standard of "certain people are allowed to mod and the rest not. or heads of industry can pirate music and movies and not get in trouble the rest of us can't", needs to stop. arrest people for pirating, not for making things that can be used for pirating.... we didn't kill all ship builders to end piracy on the 7 seas, we went after pirates, and made the world a different place, where pirates were not effective or needed...


i've ranted enough for today that's just my 2 cents and it wont change anyones ideas or opinions but i thought we needed another vote for modded non-pirate xboxes

[Malenko]

And before anyone asks, yes, I've ripped a couple of rented DVDs in my day.  It doesn't bother me.  I don't have a MAME machine because as a software developer the idea of pirated ROMs does bother me.  I have several modded Xboxes to watch those movies on but have no pirated Xbox games.

I, erm, don't usually bother to convert them myself.  Y'argh.

I guess if you made movies only then would you not steal them.

[Dartful Dodger]

Sadly, PBJ and Artful are both missing the point. It's not about roms or illegal copies. It's about buying a product (the 360) and having the choice to do what you damn well please with it.

It's illegal to modify a semi-automatic rifle. It's even illegal to modify sinus congestion medicine.


As far as those of you who are claiming you never played illegal video games on your modified Xbox's, that's as believable as Clinton claiming he didn't inhale when he smoked Marijuana.

[Vanguard]

I'm glad someone brought guns into this discussion.

Prosecuting this guy for modding xbox's is like prosecuting a gun dealer for bank robber after a gun he sold is used to rob a bank.

[RonnieC312]

were are all going to jail

LOL

[Dartful Dodger]

See, even Vanguard's understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

[Vanguard]

See, even Vanguard's understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

I don't think Dartful understands or can write...English.

[SavannahLion]

See, even Vanguard's understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

I don't think Dartful understands or can write...English.

I think that's what the DMCA authors are counting on.

[Dartful Dodger]

I don't think Dartful understands or can write...English.

I understand that this isn't P&R.

Maybe I needed to explain my post so the non-Americans on this board could understand what I've said.

I used two examples to prove my point about modifying products. One that was obvious followed by one that wasn't.

Sinus cold medicine is a product used to help and heal, but it can easily be modified into America's most addictive and deadliest narcotic.

[Vanguard]

I don't think Dartful understands or can write...English.

I understand that this isn't P&R.

Maybe I needed to explain my post so the non-Americans on this board could understand what I've said.

I used two examples to prove my point about modifying products. One that was obvious followed by one that wasn't.

Sinus cold medicine is a product used to help and heal, but it can easily be modified into America's most addictive and deadliest narcotic.

Ah, I see.   So you believe that gun dealers should go to jail for the crimes criminals commit with their guns.  Got it.

[Dartful Dodger]

See, even Vanguard's understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

[atomikbohm]

Ah, I see.   So you believe that gun dealers should go to jail for the crimes criminals commit with their guns.  Got it.

See, even Vanguard's understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

Dartful Dodger, I have 2 problems with your last comment. 

1) Your comment could be seen as belittling to Vanguard, if that was your intent send it in a PM I don't want to read it.
2) Regarding your reasoning ... wha??? read the the quotes above and explain to me how you arrived at your conclusion. 

[Benevolance]

I feel almost bad making a post that isn't ad hominem, but...

Doesn't one of the provisions of the DMCA in the USA state that it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections placed on a device/media, regardless of whether the resulting use constitutes fair use?

I know that Canada is trying to bring about a mirror law. This is our third attempt or some such. Our current revision would write certain Fair Use applications into our DMCA, such as the right to make a backup copy and time shift TV programs via PVRs. But if a publisher puts some sort of digital lock or encryption on the device/media, kiss Fair Use good bye and you are not allowed to circuvment the copy protection mechanism.

[jennifer]

 
         Pirates/hackers would welcome the challenge.

[Malenko]

It's illegal to modify a semi-automatic rifle. It's even illegal to modify sinus congestion medicine.

As far as those of you who are claiming you never played illegal video games on your modified Xbox's, that's as believable as Clinton claiming he didn't inhale when he smoked Marijuana.

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

As for not playing illegal games on my XBOX, well *I* have (mostly emulators and japanese games). However my buddy Eugene hasn't, he bought it from ebay (or craigslists or something)  just for me to mod it so he can use it has a media player. Hes less interested in video games then my dad so I can pretty confidently say he doesnt bootleg any games.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's not illegal to modify an XBox, it's illegal to make it play pirated software. You can, for example, duct tape a scope to it or mix it in orange juice.

I can pretty confidently say Eugene plays bootleg movies/music on his illegally modded Xbox.

See, even Malenko understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

[WhereEaglesDare]

[DaveMMR]

Sadly, PBJ and Artful are both missing the point. It's not about roms or illegal copies. It's about buying a product (the 360) and having the choice to do what you damn well please with it.

It's illegal to modify a semi-automatic rifle. It's even illegal to modify sinus congestion medicine.

A modded console is not capable of killing anyone... (in theory)  

[jennifer]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

[Malenko]

It's not illegal to modify an XBox, it's illegal to make it play pirated software. You can, for example, duct tape a scope to it or mix it in orange juice.

I can pretty confidently say Eugene plays bootleg movies/music on his illegally modded Xbox.

See, even Malenko understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

how can I argue that? I digress.

[mvsfan]

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

Its also not illegal to get a fully auto rifle if it was manufactured before 1986.

now, with the dmca that is what they forgot to do, to set a good age limit on this stuff.

[ErikRuud]

I modded my console and I can swear that I have never used it for any bootleg games.

It's an Odyssey2, and I modded it to output composite video instead of the usual channel 3/4 signal.   

[RayB]

I modded my console and I can swear that I have never used it for any bootleg games.

It's an Odyssey2, and I modded it to output composite video instead of the usual channel 3/4 signal.   

yeah, that would not be considered illegal even under the DMCA.

[ErikRuud]

yeah, that would not be considered illegal even under the DMCA.

Thanks, I am so relieved to hear that!  

[SavannahLion]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

Just like they've quietly robbed us of our ability to understand, modify, and expand our gizmos? We've become a society where we are fearful to modify the very things we use.

There is a reason why the U.S. slipped in key areas of technology. Kids can't learn anything worthwhile without some idiot screaming in their face it's dangerous and/or illegal. If you want you kids to learn electronics or chemistry or whatever, you absolutely cannot sanitize that knowledge. Americans need to take the bad with the good and to stop letting rich ---uvulas--- line their pockets by hiding that knowledge.

[DaveMMR]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

Still not equal to killing. 

[jennifer]

           Ideas come from imagination, education, and your ability to execute, kids should be taught right from wrong [not to steal] true its not killing
 but theft nontheless.
           Jenny does have a solution however, go mod. a few more Xboxs, pirate some software, then brag here some more. we"ll all write when
 your doing your 3yrs!

[SavannahLion]

           Ideas come from imagination, education, and your ability to execute, kids should be taught right from wrong [not to steal] true its not killing
 but theft nontheless.
           Jenny does have a solution however, go mod. a few more Xboxs, pirate some software, then brag here some more. we"ll all write when
 your doing your 3yrs!

Still clueless about the point I see.

[SavannahLion]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

As proof, he demonstrated the machine to police.

So you want to sit there, Jen, with that load of crap about "imagination, education" and ability when everyone  around you is spouting nonsense about bombs and license holders that was shoved down their throats?

[jennifer]

         And what about the kid who was planning to blow up a christmas tree ceremony in Oregon? School project? Honest projects are not being
 being condemned here, their protection of LEGAL patents are.

[DaveMMR]

         And what about the kid who was planning to blow up a christmas tree ceremony in Oregon? School project? Honest projects are not being
 being condemned here, their protection of LEGAL patents are.

At exactly what point did we start talking about terrorism and killing in a thread about modding consoles and the legality?   You're like a lawn sprinkler but instead of water, you're spewing outrage randomly whether it needs watering or not.  You need to concentrate on the brown spots, Jenn.  Stop getting the neighbors driveway soaked with off-topic silliness.

[jennifer]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

      It was in response to this, so go turn off your brown sprinkler, or whatever.

[DaveMMR]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

     It was in response to this, so go turn off your brown sprinkler, or whatever.

Doesn't matter.    Just don't know where "bomb plots" suddenly came out in console modding. 

[SavannahLion]

Jen, you are a prime example of the hysteria gripping the U.S.

What about the kid who built a Motion Detector only to have the entire school go ape ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---? Think about it. For every one "bad" story you read in the media, there are probably tens if not hundreds of kids across the U.S. that are getting suspended, expelled or worse over this nonsense.

Chemistry is a joke when it consists of baking soda and vinegar lessons. Electronics classes consist of "keyboarding" and laptop care. Physics classes involved a ball. What the hell is that crap? When I was a kid, I was building and launching rockets for my physics class. I was tearing apart and reassembling electronics (with a lot of failures and blown fuse boxes). And for chemistry? Blow a balloon up with O₂ and a candle on a stick.

I'm not saying the U.S. needs more David Hahn's, but the U.S. is in trouble and if they don't get their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- together, it's only going to get worse for everyone.

[jennifer]

         So you go from basic 101 fundamentals to pirating software???  Your right I can"t even follow your logic. Saint...... my coat please.

[SavannahLion]

         So you go from basic 101 fundamentals to pirating software???  Your right I can"t even follow your logic. Saint...... my coat please.

Don't let the door smack you on the butt.

[atomikbohm]

Man people settle down, go to your happy places for a minute and take a couple of deep breaths. 

Jen, Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato. 

Is this example ridiculous, hell yes it is.  Now for the scary part, with the laws that are currently in force, it's also our reality in the US.    

I last point, before everyone continues to be outraged, what did you do to prevent these types of laws from being passed?  If your not part of the solution YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.   

[Dartful Dodger]

atomikbohm, Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You then go to a Best Buy and break the front window with the potatoes and steal CDs and other electronics for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your electronics and arresting you, because you were only allowed to eat that kind of engineered potato.

Is this example ridiculous, hell yes it is.  Now for the scary part it makes as much sense as your example. 

How about stepping back from this Xbox situation and look at another field with the same laws.

Companies that engineer seeds to grow bigger and better plants also engineer them so they can't reproduce. This is to allow those companies to control the sale of the seeds and to prevent others from making copies of the seeds.

It's illegal to tamper with these seeds to produce plants that reproduce.

[SavannahLion]

V

How about stepping back from this Xbox situation and look at another field with the same laws.

Companies that engineer seeds to grow bigger and better plants also engineer them so they can't reproduce. This is to allow those companies to control the sale of the seeds and to prevent others from making copies of the seeds.

It's illegal to tamper with these seeds to produce plants that reproduce.

That analogy would pertain to ROMs, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to "reproducing" Xboxes feel free to do so.

Look, this is the crux.

The Federal government (and by extension Microsoft) elected to try and take this guy out for modding Xboxes not for distributing illegal ROMs. That is the issue that was chosen by the lawyers. (Made worse by their star witness own admission to modding Xboxes himself.)

If the lawyers have chosen to prosecute this guy for illegal ROMs, fine, you'll broker no argument from me. But they didn't and that's the problem that you completely fail to see. A case like this would not stop at modding Xboxes, it would expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially fall under this sort of "protecton". Do you really want to live in a world where it's illegal to mod your toaster because of the network component?

OK, a toaster is a little over the top, but the point still stands. Americans have to be willing to accept that for every positive right that we protect there are bound to be bad things that come out of it or morons who push it too far. By protecting the ability to mod Xboxes you also protect the right to tear apart existing electronics and repurpose the guts for arcade cabinets.

This holds true for everything around us. If we continue to allow money hungry corporations to dictate to us what is allowed and not allowed then we are no better than the uneducated peasants of yore.

Yes, I think that most of us understand the implications of roms. That was never the point and most certainly not the choice of logic the lawyers in this case persued. Yes we know that, ultimately, this is meant to stave off illegal roms but this case is akin to banning hammers because some ass chose to smash in a store window during a burglary.

If those of still fail to see that, then I'm sorry for you.

[atomikbohm]

Dartful,

Red Yeast Rice is a staple of some Asian diets. (think the Asian equivalent of potatoes) Red Yeast Rice can contain lovastatin.  A substance that has an effect on the human body very simular to Statin drugs (patented).  Any product that containing lovastatin has banned by the FDA, with the exception of Statin drugs. (i.e. except for a specific use, like french fries).

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/redyeastrice.htm

Dartful Dodger, Please explain your point .... or did you have one?  , nice attitude. BTW

[hyiu]

I don't pretend to know the law...

and I have modded game consoles at home... have copied games... have ripped dvds / cds... and also have some roms...

holy crap... I guess before I know it... FBI will be knocking down my door and I'll probably be on death row...  

anyways... I think that guy is being caught because he is doing it for PROFIT.

If he is doing it for himself, friends and families... I don't think he'll get into any trouble.
But he started treating it as a BUSINESS, and that "business profit" is directly going against the pocket of the big companies... MSFT... game companies...

and that got him in trouble...

---------------------

is it legal to modd an xbox to be a media player... or to modify it to suit ur needs ??

seriously, I don't know... but I think the big companies are too big to chase down every single guy who tamper with their xbox, legal or not.  Since they would assume the majority of the public will not be brave / smart / resourceful enough to do it themselves...

but when you start doing it for public for a "service charge"... or maybe placing ads to get customers.... and making $$ on their cost... they will try to hunt you down.

[Dartful Dodger]

Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato.    

That analogy would pertain to doing something that is legal, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to illegally modifying Xboxes feel free to do so.

Look, this is the crux.

The bloggers (and by extension software pirates) try to make it look like this guy was arrested for innocently modding Xboxes. That was not the issue that was chosen by the lawyers. (Made worse by their own denial to using pirated movies and games on their Xboxes.)

If the lawyers have chosen to prosecute this guy for removing a logo or adding a sticker, fine, you'll broker no argument from me. But they didn't and that's the problem that you completely fail to see. A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

[Bootay]

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

This last part confused me. Modding Xboxes has nothing to do with stealing. If we were talking about downloading pirated Xbox games, then fine. But the act of Modding is not stealing. Sure you can steal games and movies after you mod it, but that is not what is being discussed by Atomikbohm. He is talking strictly about the act of modding and nothing more.

[Benevolance]

A case like this would not stop at modding Xboxes, it would expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially fall under this sort of "protecton". Do you really want to live in a world where it's illegal to mod your toaster because of the network component?

Savanah, I think that's the point of this case. Your ability to mod Xboxes was taken away over a decade ago. The DMCA criminalizes the act of bypassing an access control or lock, regardless of whether or not there is infringement. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially already falls under this sort of "protecton".

I'd guess the point of this trial is to get some case law on their side, reaffirming these provisions of the DMCA so that companies can lean on the little guy more. I mean, it's very similar to when Lexmark put that digital chip on their cartridges, to prevent the third-party refills. In order to provide refill the cartridges, companies had to reverse engineer the very simple locking chip, at which point Lexmark sued them under the DMCA. I don't think the lawsuit held up in that instance, and I don't know where this one will go.

And let's be clear here. I completely agree with you that this sort of thing should be protected under fair use. But it isn't in the United States and hasn't been for 12 years. That is why I harass my local MLAs with letters whenever the subject of the Canadian DMCA comes up in parliament. I don't want a similar draconian law in effect in Canada, regardless of how much the US lobby efforts feel it would be a good idea.

[SavannahLion]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.   (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

[atomikbohm]

Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato.   

That analogy would pertain to doing something that is legal, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to illegally modifying Xboxes feel free to do so.

Dartful,

Red Yeast Rice is a staple of some Asian diets. (think the Asian equivalent of potatoes) Red Yeast Rice can contain lovastatin.  A substance that has an effect on the human body very simular to Statin drugs (patented).  Any product that containing lovastatin has banned by the FDA, with the exception of Statin drugs. (i.e. except for a specific use, like french fries).

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/redyeastrice.htm

Listen to the response, and consider it BEFORE responding your self.  That's how grownup conversations happen.

[ark_ader]

If I buy a Xbox I can smash it with a hammer.  I can open the case and reformat the HDD to use in my PC (why?)  Or I can spray paint it.  Callit a Ark_ader Xbox.

I can install one of those little chips inside and play backups of my games.

What I cannot do is reverse engineer/hack and copy actively marketed software (in its original distributed format) that I have not bought.

ChadTower said his deep convictions prevent him from even contemplating/using pirated software, even though he has been caught lying and found to be doing just that.  He is a software developer.  The horror!   

Be honest, truthful, and respect the law.....

And do what the heck you want inside your own home.

Simple.   

[Kevin Mullins]

And do what the heck you want inside your own home.

And some things are just better left untold .....

Well, at least not without pictures anyways. 

[Dartful Dodger]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.  (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

As you can see I point out this same mistake:

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

I'm sorry you are confused by your own style of ramblings SavannahLion.

[SavannahLion]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.  (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

As you can see I point out this same mistake:

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

I'm sorry you are confused by your own style of ramblings SavannahLion.

The only confusion here is yours. Choosing to listen to mass media and hysteria.

[mvsfan]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

For the record, I spoke tongue partially in cheek.  I'm aware of the more legitimate uses for modding.   Heck, I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation and some homebrew games.  Conversely, I have a friend who modded his 360 and tells me how he downloads 10 games a week that he burns to disc.  He thinks he's being clever; I think he's just really cheap.   Most people I see with modded consoles, however, still have a store-bought library of games and use the mods responsibly.

But, as I see, my original point - about not assuming wrongdoing is taking place, or at least wrongdoing worthy of a criminal trial - was not lost on the more level-headed parties in this trial, thank God.

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of,

and almost as soon as it was released, chips were out for it. half the turds back then that i knew who owned one, wouldnt ever think of actually buying a game for it.

i never saw anything bad back in the late 90s about playing a nes game on your pc, because the system was already old and crusty when someone figured out how to do it.

i believe their is a line though, when something has just come to market and some doofus wont go out and buy it and support the publisher because he can make a copy. if you really like a new game, go out and buy it.

[jennifer]

       Ya, now is that such a difficult concept???   

[RayB]

Can we clear the air here and focus on the specific facts?   DMCA law doesn't say "Don't mod stuff you own!". No, it says specifically is meant to "prohibit the circumvention of technical locks and controls on the use of digital content and products."

OK, you may proceed.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/anticircumvention/faq.cgi#QID91

[jennifer]

     And since I'm back [SavannaLion] why is everybody still talking about right/wrong issues? Maybe rather than thumb your nose at the system
we should have a serious conversation about the need or lack therof of mods, how about V.D. Duel layer burners, cracks, keygens, proxys,
[my personal favorite] how about mirrors, seeds, leeches, downloads. what about our rights? How dare they pass laws protecting their copyrights!
     How about torrents, encryption, Pick your poison pirate.

[SavannahLion]

     And since I'm back [SavannaLion] why is everybody still talking about right/wrong issues? Maybe rather than thumb your nose at the system
we should have a serious conversation about the need or lack therof of mods, how about V.D. Duel layer burners, cracks, keygens, proxys,
[my personal favorite] how about mirrors, seeds, leeches, downloads. what about our rights? How dare they pass laws protecting their copyrights!
     How about torrents, encryption, Pick your poison pirate.

I like how you call me a pirate. Get your nomenclatures straight before you start spouting nonsense about random ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. The evils of seeding. Right.

Pirate, what a riot.  If I'm a pirate, what does that make the people of Pirate Bay? Serial rapists and murders? That's just hilarious. Oh wait.. If Captain Crunch was a pirate, what does that make Blackbeard?

Yeah, I'm out. I got my point across but these ---uvulas--- are still clueless. Call me back in when something resembling a decent discussion is met.

[jennifer]

    
   Well then, for what other reason would a mod. be of ANY interest to you?
         And pirate bay? kinda says it all.

[DaveMMR]

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of,

Actually, I think Sega's bad timing with their "mid-generation" release date, their poor reputation from the Sega CD/32X/Saturn debacles that soured retailers and consumers, and the eventual release of the PS2 which 3rd parties were more keen to work on than "three-strike Sega" led to the DC's early demise.   Piracy did not seem like a primary problem with the DC - despite the ease.

[Malenko]

I just love how in all of dartful's examples an XBOX modder is also heavily armed, a chemist, or a biological engineer.
Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

     How about torrents, encryption, Pick your poison pirate.

How about staying on topic in this thread and starting a new one? Do it in P&R so I dont have to see it.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Why the hell are we having members being mean to other members over ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- that has nothing to do with them?!  I imagine if I walked into any day in Jennifer's  and Dartful's life I could find several crimes being committed... just like everyone else... 

STOP BEING TOOLS IT WAS CUTE FOR A LITTLE WHILE BUT NOW NOBODY WANTS TO HEAR IT.

[saint]

Yeah, enjoy the debate but keep it polite and civil please. If you want to duke it out ask for entry to the politics and religion forum. Free gloves are given out at the door

Any my contribution: I don't have any modded consoles, but if I do mod them it'll be for one purpose only -- to play backups of software I legally own originals of. My kids are murder on optical media. I hate the number of games that have been ruined by being scratched to death. I do not believe that would make me a pirate.

[jamesjones626]

Yeah, enjoy the debate but keep it polite and civil please. If you want to duke it out ask for entry to the politics and religion forum. Free gloves are given out at the door

Any my contribution: I don't have any modded consoles, but if I do mod them it'll be for one purpose only -- to play backups of software I legally own originals of. My kids are murder on optical media. I hate the number of games that have been ruined by being scratched to death. I do not believe that would make me a pirate.

Thats the exact reason why i copy every dvd i own, I have a 8, 5 and 4 year old and no matter how careful they are with the movies the Muck them up.  Sucks to pay 15 for a new movie just to have it scratched up.  I also rip and encode them so they can watch it on my computer incase i dont want the tv tied up.

[jennifer]

       what about when you put that legit movie in, and right away it says: duplication without consent blah...blah...blah.. do you copy that
page to?  And as for Jennys house ALL my games..jukes..pins.. A triple diget collection may I add, have ORIGINAL BOARDS.
       The music in the jukes? 100% licensed..... my movies? I bought at walmart.
       So then if streaming/riping is the new cool how come nobodys talking about how? The best programs, download sites, virus protection?
Anything?.....

[Bootay]

I think that it is impossible for this thread to stay on topic. LOL

[WhereEaglesDare]

And as for Jennys house...

No drugs, you dont run red lights, you dont steal out of the wishing fountain at the chinese restaurant, never beat your significant other, never stole the lil baby jesus from the nativity scene...  youre an angel I'm sure.

The point is if Malenko wants to mod XBoxes for charity or charge for it or mix them up with his orange juice why do you care?

I recently found out how easyit is to play burned games on a PS1, you do this crazy simple disc swap on almost all the older model PS1 and it will boot up your burned game...  that did not stop playstation from making newer games or consoles, I doubt it effected Sony at all because people that play burned games dont buy games new anyways, they would buy it used.

[Malenko]

       what about when you put that legit movie in, and right away it says: duplication without consent blah...blah...blah.. do you copy that
page to?  And as for Jennys house ALL my games..jukes..pins.. A triple diget collection may I add, have ORIGINAL BOARDS.
       The music in the jukes? 100% licensed..... my movies? I bought at walmart.
       So then if streaming/riping is the new cool how come nobodys talking about how? The best programs, download sites, virus protection?
Anything?.....

Take the time to spell check. I have original boards too. Shopping at walmart isnt really worth bragging about. I probably have more movies (DVDs/HD-DVDs/Blu-Rays) then you do. I dont understand the point of your rant; what do programs, download sites, and lastly virus protection have to do with anything?

Are you actually advocating you never broken any law ever?

[ErikRuud]

... Free gloves are given out at the door

Ooooh.  Let me in then, it's cold here in Chicago and it is only going to get colder.  I need those gloves! 

[atomikbohm]

Saint's right about this thread.  Decorum and civility need to be maintained.  Sorry for the snappiness Dartful.  

Jen, the reality is that anyone who says that they don't ever break the law is either horribly ignorant, flat out lying or a combination of both.  Have you ever bounced a check? Depending on the amount and the state it was written in you could have been subject to penalties more harsh than the ones Matthew Crippen was looking at.  In most cases Prison time and / or being branded a Felon. http://www.ckfraud.org/penalties.html#criminal

I don't think that anyone here was attempting to justify or defend pirating software.  Regardless of if we feel that the laws are just, we all / most understand that having software that you didn't pay for is illegal and could land your butt in a world of hurt.

This thread started out as a DISCUSSION about modding X-boxs.  We should either continue on that course in this thread or start a new one.  Maybe call it "I want to argue with someone on the internet".   (the last comment wasn't was directed at anyone everyone in particular)

[WhereEaglesDare]

something about fighting with some one on the internet and winning the special olympics

[Mikezilla]

... Free gloves are given out at the door

Ooooh.  Let me in then, it's cold here in Chicago and it is only going to get colder.  I need those gloves! 

I think saint meant boxing gloves. 

[ErikRuud]

They will still keep my hands warm!

Man    Is this the right room for an argument?
Mr Vibrating    I've told you once.
Man    No you haven't.
Mr Vibrating    Yes I have.
Man    When?
Mr Vibrating    Just now!
Man    No you didn't.
Mr Vibrating    Yes I did!
Man    Didn't.
...

[Dartful Dodger]

Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

Just wondering Malenko, is an illegally modded Xbox the only way to stream media?

[ChadTower]

Did that guy just argue with a vibrator?

[atomikbohm]

Did that guy just argue with a vibrator?

.... I must ... Stay on topic ... Stay on topic ...

[ErikRuud]

Did that guy just argue with a vibrator?

Chad, I am so disappointed in you. 

And now for something completely different...

[ChadTower]

Missed reference?

I can't google "mr vibrator" from where I am sitting.

[ErikRuud]

Monty Python - The Argument Sketch.

[ChadTower]

I'll have to check it out another time.   

[WhereEaglesDare]

Vague Monty Python references will get you everywhere here.

[yotsuya]

I saw Eric Idle do the Arguement Sketch live. Great stuff.

[Benevolance]

By himself?

[RayB]

By himself?

Yes he didn't!

[ErikRuud]

By himself?

Yes he didn't!

[Malenko]

Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

Just wondering Malenko, is an illegally modded Xbox the only way to stream media?

My buddy wanted another device to stream to and instead of buying/building a new computer he got a used xbox; because I modded it for his media streaming he is automatically a pirate according to you.

I can pretty confidently say Eugene plays bootleg movies/music on his illegally modded Xbox.

And I can even more confidently say that you are wrong, as usual.

[Cakemeister]

I captioned this picture in honor of this thread:

[Ed_McCarron]

Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

Just wondering Malenko, is an illegally modded Xbox the only way to stream media?

Nope.  But it used to be one of the cheapest.

[Kevin Mullins]

Nope.  But it used to be one of the cheapest.

Used to be?
Heck I have three and they were all free. 

[WhereEaglesDare]

i heard that M$ will "black list" your 360 if you mod it...  whats that all about?  Does that include if you chip it?

What are the benefits of using a modded 360, I dont have a 360, but they are dropping in price like crazy and I'm thinking of getting one.

[jennifer]

           Interesting question.....     

[RayB]

I modded my PS2 to be able to run games off a hard drive. That was really convenient. I could keep my games all stored away and not mess with discs. Games loaded content faster and some games like the GTA series loaded stuff in-game faster, which resulted in less "pop up" graphics. (that's when you're driving around in a game and you see buildings and stuff just suddenly appear because the system can't keep up with how fast you're driving)

I'd like the same convenience with my 360, but I haven't bothered looking into it.

[jennifer]

i heard that M$ will "black list" your 360 if you mod it...  whats that all about?  Does that include if you chip it?

      yes,  they will, violation of terms of agreement, you will not be allowed to play live. It is possible to patch the firmware however, as for
the chip, I dont know.

[gnateye]

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of, and almost as soon as it was released, chips were out for it. half the turds back then that i knew who owned one, wouldnt ever think of actually buying a game for it.

i have to say a big "NOT" to this one.

the dreamcast died a quick death yes, but piracy was a side effect, not a cause, and a chip was NEVER needed to play any unsigned disc in the dreamcast, any old cdr would play in it...

by the time all homebrew apps and the pirate ISO sites popped up, the dreamcast was gone.dead.

[WhereEaglesDare]

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of, and almost as soon as it was released, chips were out for it. half the turds back then that i knew who owned one, wouldnt ever think of actually buying a game for it.

i have to say a big "NOT" to this one.

the dreamcast died a quick death yes, but piracy was a side effect, not a cause, and a chip was NEVER needed to play any unsigned disc in the dreamcast, any old cdr would play in it...

by the time all homebrew apps and the pirate ISO sites popped up, the dreamcast was gone.dead.

There was very little 3rd party support to Sega because of how badly the Saturn performed, plus I heard that the president of Sega of America came out after the Saturns release and called it an abortion of a console.

But the fact is, even though the DreamCast is superior system, the PS2 won out because of DVD Support and a lot of politics.

[jennifer]

 

the dreamcast died a quick death yes, but piracy was a side effect, not a cause, and a chip was NEVER needed to play any unsigned disc in the dreamcast, any old cdr would play in it...

by the time all homebrew apps and the pirate ISO sites popped up, the dreamcast was gone.dead.
[/quote]
              The fact it plays any cdr kinda points to death by pirates, giving us the problems we face today, locked out. The console itself most probably
  not the big revenue source, but the software on the otherhand would be. They want to SELL you a game.

[ChadTower]

Nope.  But it used to be one of the cheapest.

It still may be given how far the cost of an original Xbox has dropped and how smoothly it upscales.  The only thing I can see that comes close is the new XBMC versions for desktops - if you happen to have a video card around that talks nicely to your TV and an interface as convenient to use as either the Xbox controller or the Xbox remote.

[Dartful Dodger]

Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

My buddy wanted to stream legally and instead of buying/building a new computer he got a used device that can stream legally.

[DaveMMR]

RE: My original Dreamcast reply a few pages back.    Can we work on getting our quoting straight?     I'm reading quotes inside quotes and I'm sitting here saying to myself "I didn't say that".  Now onto this:

(commenting on a statement regarding the Dreamcast and piracy)
The fact it plays any cdr kinda points to death by pirates, giving us the problems we face today, locked out. The console itself most probably
  not the big revenue source, but the software on the otherhand would be. They want to SELL you a game.

Again, pirating did not kill the Dreamcast.  It did itself in for the reasons (not quoted for some reason) I mentioned above (a) timing (b) competition (c) lack of support due to poor track record.  

Yeah, it could play unsigned CD-ROMS but DC software ran on GD-ROMS, which is double the capacity of of a standard CD-ROM.  Computers could read some of the GD-ROM but would not read past the first track where the game code lies.    

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.   It was the late 90's and we all didn't have broadband access to download large Gigabyte-sized files, nor did we all have burners capable of reproducing the data that the DC could read.   We were happy to purchase games -- once they eventually released them (early adopters know what I'm talking about here).  

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Now.... if pirating is killing anything, it's computer gaming.  The computer gamers are also the technically advanced and would know how to get software illegally.  But pirating on consoles is not something done by the average owner due to the roadblocks put in there.  It's far too technical and convoluted for non-techies to bother with (or even know about).   No console failure in recent memory (ever?) can be blamed on pirating.    

[ErikRuud]

Again, pirating did not kill the Dreamcast.  It did itself in for the reasons (not quoted for some reason) I mentioned above (a) timing (b) competition (c) lack of support due to poor track record.  

You are correct Sega had some really bad timing/decision making at that point.  They brought out the Saturn so fast after the Sega 32x that they effectively killed their own platform.  Then they did almost the same thing to the Saturn when they brought out the Dreamcast.  Competition from from Sony and Nintendo didn't help either.

[ChadTower]

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.  

...

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Yes, there were workarounds, and yes, they were effective and allowed the easiest pirating of any console to that point.

I strongly disagree that it didn't affect software sales.  It was easy to get pirated Dreamcast games.  They were all over the same internet locations where people were pirating any other software.  They were also available, right out in the open, on Ebay, at flea markets, wherever people were doing shady business at the time.  Awareness had not caught up to piracy yet so people were in no danger selling them right out in the open.   The Dreamcast was the first system that could be pirated by the average user.

Now, did that kill the Dreamcast?  No.  Sega torpedoed the Dreamcast voluntarily through lack of support and basic lack of desire.  The Dreamcast was really just a boxed version of the Naomi platform anyway and that's what Sega was really interested in going forward.

[ChadTower]

The GD-ROM concept was a good one.  The flaw was that very few of the games were actually bigger than a CDR.  All people had to do was read off the GD-ROM, write it to a CDR, and then throw it in a mass burner.  Or on an ftp site.  Sega's anti-Sony approach of engine generated animation rather than prerendered video actually bit them in the ass a little.  If their games were as bloated with cutscenes as Playstation games were they would all have been bigger than a CDR and much harder to pirate.

[DaveMMR]

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.  

...

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Yes, there were workarounds, and yes, they were effective and allowed the easiest pirating of any console to that point.

I strongly disagree that it didn't affect software sales.  It was easy to get pirated Dreamcast games.  They were all over the same internet locations where people were pirating any other software.  They were also available, right out in the open, on Ebay, at flea markets, wherever people were doing shady business at the time.  Awareness had not caught up to piracy yet so people were in no danger selling them right out in the open.   The Dreamcast was the first system that could be pirated by the average user.

Now, did that kill the Dreamcast?  No.  Sega torpedoed the Dreamcast voluntarily through lack of support and basic lack of desire.  The Dreamcast was really just a boxed version of the Naomi platform anyway and that's what Sega was really interested in going forward.

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.   I don't doubt you were able to find bootlegged DC games (not unlike the bootlegged PS1 games I always came across), but it wasn't like those guys walking into bars and laundromats with the bootleg DVDs for sale they have nowadays.

Now, could the DC be pirated by the average user back then (i.e. not anyone on this board)?   Again, don't think so.  I did a search on DC backups.  Here's a snippet:

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

Mind you, this is information in 2010 - not 1999 when many of us were still on dial-up.    And all the pages I saw in my search required software downloads, multiple steps AND an .iso download.

Sorry, I find it hard to believe there was ferocious copying of DC games during its lifespan.

(Addendum:  Though I can believe it was more prevalent around when Pinballjim stated -- after it was already dead and stores weren't really selling new games anyhow.)

[RayB]

Sega still sells brand new Dreamcasts:

http://www.amazon.com/Sega-Dreamcast-Console/dp/B00000K2R4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292378323&sr=8-1

[jennifer]

        Pong, Atari, nintendo, piracy wasnt even a concept at this time,[that I"m aware of] computers were a crazy fad, barbaric and slow.[Apple, IBM]
Thats where I quit consoles and started collecting arcade games. The timelines of what you guys are saying are correct however and with interesting
points, [1] burners were not somthing just everyone had. [2] dial-up, nuf said there. The Dreamcast may have or not had a piracy problem, but that
is about the the time the problem started. The one thing all these games[and the new ones] have in common is that they are the most state of the
art games/consoles of their day.

[ChadTower]

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.

Anyone in middle school, high school, or college at the time had easy access to someone selling them.  There was always one person that was doing it.  Same with PS1 games although that required hardware mods in many cases.  They were easily available on Ebay.  Piracy controls on Ebay didn't come along until much later.  I knew more people with Dreamcasts that had pirated games than did not have any.

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

All you had to know is that someone local knew someone with a pirated game.  Sure, it took effort to get it from GDROM to CDROM, but once that was done, a person could turn out as many copies as they had blank discs.  One kid in a class buys a batch of copies off Ebay and sells copies to his friends to pay for the CD writer.  Happened all over the place.

What really slowed piracy on the DC was Gamestop prices.  When Gamestop started treating the DC like a worthless clearance item, probably because so many were buying pirated games rather than used games, you could get used games cheaper than copies.  

BTW, you don't need everyone to have a burner, you only need one.  And it was very possible to download large items over dialup.  There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  Many free FTP clients did it too.  You have to realize that it only took one person in a group to be able to do these things and pass on the games to everybody else.  Maybe you folks weren't exposed but it really was widespread in a lot of places.

[ChadTower]

Widespread piracy certainly hasn't killed the DS and you can find flash cards EVERYWHERE.

I think you could argue piracy has beaten the PSP to death in the US, though.

Yeah, nobody is saying piracy is what killed the Dreamcast.  It didn't.  Sega did that themselves.

Most of the DS users I know are elementary school kids.  They aren't old enough to steal games unless their parents do it for them.  The age of the average user is probably what is saving the DS.  I don't know many adults who are regular DS users.  Nearly every kid I know has one.

[Bootay]

From what I remember, CD Burners were relatively cheap and high speed Internet was pretty common at least in my area during the Dreamcast times. And they even had a broadband adapter for the Dreamcast.

But anyhow, yes it is true that a PC cannot read a GD-ROM but what was done back then was they got a device that was meant for developers to make their own games. What this device did was allow you to connect the Dreamcast to your PC. This device was made by Sega FYI. So they just linked the Dreamcast to the PC and copied the data from the GD-ROM to the PC, downsampled the audio and sometimes a few video clips, then burn the data to a CD and the Dreamcast would read them just fine with a Boot CD that the pirate scene made. Later they figured out a way to make the bootlegs work without the boot cd.

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

[ChadTower]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

[Bootay]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Ahh..well I wasn't aware of the price or licensing involved, but the pirate scene sure had their own. heh

[ChadTower]

Ahh..well I wasn't aware of the price or licensing involved, but the pirate scene sure had their own. heh

Yep, and if Sega had ever tracked that back to the owner, there would have been both a massive lawsuit and possible criminal charges over it.

Eventually they did start popping up on Ebay as "old used goods" but that was way after the console was totally dead and out of stores.  A lot of people were interested in them because of the Windows CE engine the Dreamcast runs.

EDIT:  if I think about it that might still be the best way to write your own arcade game and run it on "real arcade hardware".  It could be written/compiled mostly on NT and run on a Naomi boardset.

[Ed_McCarron]

There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  

ZMODEM FTW!

[ChadTower]

Would you believe GetRight is still supported and used?  I would have thought that app unnecessary years ago.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Personally what always cracked me up about programmers was when Acclaim did some interview and you could see the Doctor V64s in the background.  If you think it's really outsider pirates ripping and distributing those ISOs, you're nuts.

Yea I always believed most games were leaked by someone in the distributor.  This still happens today, especially with DVD Movies.  You can usually get a DVD Rip a month before DVD release.

[jamesjones626]

Oh lawdy what i mess this thread has turned into...................  One thing is for sure, you will never ever stop pirating of any kind, you can only slow it down. 

[DaveMMR]

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.

Anyone in middle school, high school, or college at the time had easy access to someone selling them.  There was always one person that was doing it.  Same with PS1 games although that required hardware mods in many cases.  They were easily available on Ebay.  Piracy controls on Ebay didn't come along until much later.  I knew more people with Dreamcasts that had pirated games than did not have any.

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

All you had to know is that someone local knew someone with a pirated game.  Sure, it took effort to get it from GDROM to CDROM, but once that was done, a person could turn out as many copies as they had blank discs.  One kid in a class buys a batch of copies off Ebay and sells copies to his friends to pay for the CD writer.  Happened all over the place.

What really slowed piracy on the DC was Gamestop prices.  When Gamestop started treating the DC like a worthless clearance item, probably because so many were buying pirated games rather than used games, you could get used games cheaper than copies.  

BTW, you don't need everyone to have a burner, you only need one.  And it was very possible to download large items over dialup.  There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  Many free FTP clients did it too.  You have to realize that it only took one person in a group to be able to do these things and pass on the games to everybody else.  Maybe you folks weren't exposed but it really was widespread in a lot of places.

For each DC owner in 1999 who knew about any of this, you need to remember the hundreds who didn't know anything about computers, downloading, burner, etc. and bought the games because they knew of no other option.    These are people who weren't using download tools for large files over dialup.   Maybe they bought a couple of bootlegged games at a flea market, but it's no where near "rampant" piracy.    Besides, they were too busy downloading MP3's at that time anyway.

Going further: I believe those who pirate console games are the vast minority.   Consoles are tailored towards the less technically-inclined (though techies can enjoy them too).  You don't have to do anything: just plug it in and play.    Think about all the people who couldn't even program a VCR back in the 80's/90's.  It was always the joke, but it's all right there in the manual, the one people like to ignore.  These are the same people who not only aren't modding their consoles, they wouldn't even know what the heck we're talking about.  Just said the words "void warranty" and they wouldn't hear another word.    Even with the DS: easy to pirate with flash cards, but a large portion of its audience are younger gamers (read: under 10) who don't seem like they would be schooled on Piracy 101.

This is the reason, more or less, game publishers are flocking to consoles and leaving PC gaming to die.   Why support a platform where it's almost impossible to prevent piracy and the gamers themselves are even openly announcing that they plan to pirate said game because they feel "it's their right to do so" for whatever reason? 

[SavannahLion]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

[jennifer]

      Yes, you do dare mention what it was, there are no pirates here [really], and I"m not a moron [sometimes].

[Bootay]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

Savannah: Nah, I wasn't confusing anything with the Katana. I wasn't even referring to the Katana at all actually. There was a device you could buy that allowed you to link your Dreamcast to your PC to copy the contents of the GD-ROM to your PC in a folder, then you could shrink some of the files by re-encoding, then burn the files to a CD-ROM and they would play on the Dreamcast. No one used the Katana to pirate back then (That I know of). I cannot remember the device's name though, I might have to research it. Also, some people used the broadband adapter to FTP the contents to their PC and do the same. Like mentioned before, most games were no bigger than a cd-rom, and the ones that were just needed a little downsampling. A lot of the games had large dummy files on them that could be removed too. There were a few games that were too big to fit on CD no matter what, D2 for example. And I hear the original is expensive on Ebay. The pirate scene eventually split it onto multiple cds. I believe the original was 2 full GD-ROMS, and the scene split the game onto 8 CDs. And you needed a guide to know when to switch cds.

[SavannahLion]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

I don't recall Sega ever produced a different dev kit other than katana. Sega really didn't love the console as much as they could have.

[Bootay]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

I don't recall Sega ever produced a different dev kit other than katana. Sega really didn't love the console as much as they could have.

I may be thinking of the link cable and if so I guess I was mistaken in claiming that Sega made it. It has been quite some time since the DC scene. 

Sounds like you have a good memory though.

[SavannahLion]

I like history.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I like history.

Indeed, my son will be learning about the great Dreamcast Debacle in World History 10 years from now.

[SavannahLion]

I like history.

Indeed, my son will be learning about the great Dreamcast Debacle in World History 10 years from now.

That would be illegal under the DMCA.

[DaveMMR]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

How much did it eventually sell for, pirate!  (just kidding)   

Actually, I wouldn't mind having one of those too as a collector.  Here's something I came up with (but with the DC logo - not the Katana)
http://retro-treasures.blogspot.com/2008/05/sega-katana-hkt-0120-dreamcast.html

[SavannahLion]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

[WhereEaglesDare]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

Whoa!  Thats nuts for a piece of 10 year old tech.

[SavannahLion]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

Whoa!  Thats nuts for a piece of 10 year old tech.

Maybe. I'm not 100% sure on that. I was bidding on a lot of old console tech back then. A lot of Atari and Sega a peripherals and stuff with some Nintendo (eg FDS) whenever they cropped up.

[ChadTower]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

[ark_ader]

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

Which a few of those games, funnily enough,  were on that disc you downloaded for the xbox.   

[SavannahLion]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

Uh... duh?