XBOX modders caught. Might be facing Prison time if convicted.

[Benevolance]

I feel almost bad making a post that isn't ad hominem, but...

Doesn't one of the provisions of the DMCA in the USA state that it is illegal to circumvent copyright protections placed on a device/media, regardless of whether the resulting use constitutes fair use?

I know that Canada is trying to bring about a mirror law. This is our third attempt or some such. Our current revision would write certain Fair Use applications into our DMCA, such as the right to make a backup copy and time shift TV programs via PVRs. But if a publisher puts some sort of digital lock or encryption on the device/media, kiss Fair Use good bye and you are not allowed to circuvment the copy protection mechanism.

[jennifer]

 
         Pirates/hackers would welcome the challenge.

[Malenko]

It's illegal to modify a semi-automatic rifle. It's even illegal to modify sinus congestion medicine.

As far as those of you who are claiming you never played illegal video games on your modified Xbox's, that's as believable as Clinton claiming he didn't inhale when he smoked Marijuana.

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

As for not playing illegal games on my XBOX, well *I* have (mostly emulators and japanese games). However my buddy Eugene hasn't, he bought it from ebay (or craigslists or something)  just for me to mod it so he can use it has a media player. Hes less interested in video games then my dad so I can pretty confidently say he doesnt bootleg any games.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's not illegal to modify an XBox, it's illegal to make it play pirated software. You can, for example, duct tape a scope to it or mix it in orange juice.

I can pretty confidently say Eugene plays bootleg movies/music on his illegally modded Xbox.

See, even Malenko understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

[WhereEaglesDare]

[DaveMMR]

Sadly, PBJ and Artful are both missing the point. It's not about roms or illegal copies. It's about buying a product (the 360) and having the choice to do what you damn well please with it.

It's illegal to modify a semi-automatic rifle. It's even illegal to modify sinus congestion medicine.

A modded console is not capable of killing anyone... (in theory)  

[jennifer]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

[Malenko]

It's not illegal to modify an XBox, it's illegal to make it play pirated software. You can, for example, duct tape a scope to it or mix it in orange juice.

I can pretty confidently say Eugene plays bootleg movies/music on his illegally modded Xbox.

See, even Malenko understands that people who want illegal work done on a product so they can use that product for illegal reasons.

how can I argue that? I digress.

[mvsfan]

Its not illegal to modify a semi automatic rifle, its illegal to make it full automatic. You can get, for example, a scope. You can modify sinus congestion medicine, say for example you mix it in with orange juice (or are you modding orange juice?lol). Those are just laughably TERRIBLE examples. Modify is being used far too loosely there.

Its also not illegal to get a fully auto rifle if it was manufactured before 1986.

now, with the dmca that is what they forgot to do, to set a good age limit on this stuff.

[ErikRuud]

I modded my console and I can swear that I have never used it for any bootleg games.

It's an Odyssey2, and I modded it to output composite video instead of the usual channel 3/4 signal.   

[RayB]

I modded my console and I can swear that I have never used it for any bootleg games.

It's an Odyssey2, and I modded it to output composite video instead of the usual channel 3/4 signal.   

yeah, that would not be considered illegal even under the DMCA.

[ErikRuud]

yeah, that would not be considered illegal even under the DMCA.

Thanks, I am so relieved to hear that!  

[SavannahLion]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

Just like they've quietly robbed us of our ability to understand, modify, and expand our gizmos? We've become a society where we are fearful to modify the very things we use.

There is a reason why the U.S. slipped in key areas of technology. Kids can't learn anything worthwhile without some idiot screaming in their face it's dangerous and/or illegal. If you want you kids to learn electronics or chemistry or whatever, you absolutely cannot sanitize that knowledge. Americans need to take the bad with the good and to stop letting rich ---uvulas--- line their pockets by hiding that knowledge.

[DaveMMR]

           No, but in theory your robbing the license holder at digital gunpoint

Still not equal to killing. 

[jennifer]

           Ideas come from imagination, education, and your ability to execute, kids should be taught right from wrong [not to steal] true its not killing
 but theft nontheless.
           Jenny does have a solution however, go mod. a few more Xboxs, pirate some software, then brag here some more. we"ll all write when
 your doing your 3yrs!

[SavannahLion]

           Ideas come from imagination, education, and your ability to execute, kids should be taught right from wrong [not to steal] true its not killing
 but theft nontheless.
           Jenny does have a solution however, go mod. a few more Xboxs, pirate some software, then brag here some more. we"ll all write when
 your doing your 3yrs!

Still clueless about the point I see.

[SavannahLion]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

As proof, he demonstrated the machine to police.

So you want to sit there, Jen, with that load of crap about "imagination, education" and ability when everyone  around you is spouting nonsense about bombs and license holders that was shoved down their throats?

[jennifer]

         And what about the kid who was planning to blow up a christmas tree ceremony in Oregon? School project? Honest projects are not being
 being condemned here, their protection of LEGAL patents are.

[DaveMMR]

         And what about the kid who was planning to blow up a christmas tree ceremony in Oregon? School project? Honest projects are not being
 being condemned here, their protection of LEGAL patents are.

At exactly what point did we start talking about terrorism and killing in a thread about modding consoles and the legality?   You're like a lawn sprinkler but instead of water, you're spewing outrage randomly whether it needs watering or not.  You need to concentrate on the brown spots, Jenn.  Stop getting the neighbors driveway soaked with off-topic silliness.

[jennifer]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

      It was in response to this, so go turn off your brown sprinkler, or whatever.

[DaveMMR]

This illustrates one of my points:

A local kid had his truck under police investigation because some chicken thought he had a bomb in the truck bed (camper shell). Bomb squad was called out and the whole nine yards until the kid came out and told the police it was a school project.

So what was this "bomb"? It was a soda mixing machine.

     It was in response to this, so go turn off your brown sprinkler, or whatever.

Doesn't matter.    Just don't know where "bomb plots" suddenly came out in console modding. 

[SavannahLion]

Jen, you are a prime example of the hysteria gripping the U.S.

What about the kid who built a Motion Detector only to have the entire school go ape ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---? Think about it. For every one "bad" story you read in the media, there are probably tens if not hundreds of kids across the U.S. that are getting suspended, expelled or worse over this nonsense.

Chemistry is a joke when it consists of baking soda and vinegar lessons. Electronics classes consist of "keyboarding" and laptop care. Physics classes involved a ball. What the hell is that crap? When I was a kid, I was building and launching rockets for my physics class. I was tearing apart and reassembling electronics (with a lot of failures and blown fuse boxes). And for chemistry? Blow a balloon up with O₂ and a candle on a stick.

I'm not saying the U.S. needs more David Hahn's, but the U.S. is in trouble and if they don't get their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- together, it's only going to get worse for everyone.

[jennifer]

         So you go from basic 101 fundamentals to pirating software???  Your right I can"t even follow your logic. Saint...... my coat please.

[SavannahLion]

         So you go from basic 101 fundamentals to pirating software???  Your right I can"t even follow your logic. Saint...... my coat please.

Don't let the door smack you on the butt.

[atomikbohm]

Man people settle down, go to your happy places for a minute and take a couple of deep breaths. 

Jen, Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato. 

Is this example ridiculous, hell yes it is.  Now for the scary part, with the laws that are currently in force, it's also our reality in the US.    

I last point, before everyone continues to be outraged, what did you do to prevent these types of laws from being passed?  If your not part of the solution YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.   

[Dartful Dodger]

atomikbohm, Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You then go to a Best Buy and break the front window with the potatoes and steal CDs and other electronics for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your electronics and arresting you, because you were only allowed to eat that kind of engineered potato.

Is this example ridiculous, hell yes it is.  Now for the scary part it makes as much sense as your example. 

How about stepping back from this Xbox situation and look at another field with the same laws.

Companies that engineer seeds to grow bigger and better plants also engineer them so they can't reproduce. This is to allow those companies to control the sale of the seeds and to prevent others from making copies of the seeds.

It's illegal to tamper with these seeds to produce plants that reproduce.

[SavannahLion]

V

How about stepping back from this Xbox situation and look at another field with the same laws.

Companies that engineer seeds to grow bigger and better plants also engineer them so they can't reproduce. This is to allow those companies to control the sale of the seeds and to prevent others from making copies of the seeds.

It's illegal to tamper with these seeds to produce plants that reproduce.

That analogy would pertain to ROMs, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to "reproducing" Xboxes feel free to do so.

Look, this is the crux.

The Federal government (and by extension Microsoft) elected to try and take this guy out for modding Xboxes not for distributing illegal ROMs. That is the issue that was chosen by the lawyers. (Made worse by their star witness own admission to modding Xboxes himself.)

If the lawyers have chosen to prosecute this guy for illegal ROMs, fine, you'll broker no argument from me. But they didn't and that's the problem that you completely fail to see. A case like this would not stop at modding Xboxes, it would expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially fall under this sort of "protecton". Do you really want to live in a world where it's illegal to mod your toaster because of the network component?

OK, a toaster is a little over the top, but the point still stands. Americans have to be willing to accept that for every positive right that we protect there are bound to be bad things that come out of it or morons who push it too far. By protecting the ability to mod Xboxes you also protect the right to tear apart existing electronics and repurpose the guts for arcade cabinets.

This holds true for everything around us. If we continue to allow money hungry corporations to dictate to us what is allowed and not allowed then we are no better than the uneducated peasants of yore.

Yes, I think that most of us understand the implications of roms. That was never the point and most certainly not the choice of logic the lawyers in this case persued. Yes we know that, ultimately, this is meant to stave off illegal roms but this case is akin to banning hammers because some ass chose to smash in a store window during a burglary.

If those of still fail to see that, then I'm sorry for you.

[atomikbohm]

Dartful,

Red Yeast Rice is a staple of some Asian diets. (think the Asian equivalent of potatoes) Red Yeast Rice can contain lovastatin.  A substance that has an effect on the human body very simular to Statin drugs (patented).  Any product that containing lovastatin has banned by the FDA, with the exception of Statin drugs. (i.e. except for a specific use, like french fries).

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/redyeastrice.htm

Dartful Dodger, Please explain your point .... or did you have one?  , nice attitude. BTW

[hyiu]

I don't pretend to know the law...

and I have modded game consoles at home... have copied games... have ripped dvds / cds... and also have some roms...

holy crap... I guess before I know it... FBI will be knocking down my door and I'll probably be on death row...  

anyways... I think that guy is being caught because he is doing it for PROFIT.

If he is doing it for himself, friends and families... I don't think he'll get into any trouble.
But he started treating it as a BUSINESS, and that "business profit" is directly going against the pocket of the big companies... MSFT... game companies...

and that got him in trouble...

---------------------

is it legal to modd an xbox to be a media player... or to modify it to suit ur needs ??

seriously, I don't know... but I think the big companies are too big to chase down every single guy who tamper with their xbox, legal or not.  Since they would assume the majority of the public will not be brave / smart / resourceful enough to do it themselves...

but when you start doing it for public for a "service charge"... or maybe placing ads to get customers.... and making $$ on their cost... they will try to hunt you down.

[Dartful Dodger]

Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato.    

That analogy would pertain to doing something that is legal, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to illegally modifying Xboxes feel free to do so.

Look, this is the crux.

The bloggers (and by extension software pirates) try to make it look like this guy was arrested for innocently modding Xboxes. That was not the issue that was chosen by the lawyers. (Made worse by their own denial to using pirated movies and games on their Xboxes.)

If the lawyers have chosen to prosecute this guy for removing a logo or adding a sticker, fine, you'll broker no argument from me. But they didn't and that's the problem that you completely fail to see. A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

[Bootay]

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

This last part confused me. Modding Xboxes has nothing to do with stealing. If we were talking about downloading pirated Xbox games, then fine. But the act of Modding is not stealing. Sure you can steal games and movies after you mod it, but that is not what is being discussed by Atomikbohm. He is talking strictly about the act of modding and nothing more.

[Benevolance]

A case like this would not stop at modding Xboxes, it would expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially fall under this sort of "protecton". Do you really want to live in a world where it's illegal to mod your toaster because of the network component?

Savanah, I think that's the point of this case. Your ability to mod Xboxes was taken away over a decade ago. The DMCA criminalizes the act of bypassing an access control or lock, regardless of whether or not there is infringement. Everything from DVD players to automobiles could potentially already falls under this sort of "protecton".

I'd guess the point of this trial is to get some case law on their side, reaffirming these provisions of the DMCA so that companies can lean on the little guy more. I mean, it's very similar to when Lexmark put that digital chip on their cartridges, to prevent the third-party refills. In order to provide refill the cartridges, companies had to reverse engineer the very simple locking chip, at which point Lexmark sued them under the DMCA. I don't think the lawsuit held up in that instance, and I don't know where this one will go.

And let's be clear here. I completely agree with you that this sort of thing should be protected under fair use. But it isn't in the United States and hasn't been for 12 years. That is why I harass my local MLAs with letters whenever the subject of the Canadian DMCA comes up in parliament. I don't want a similar draconian law in effect in Canada, regardless of how much the US lobby efforts feel it would be a good idea.

[SavannahLion]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.   (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

[atomikbohm]

Imagine if you go to the grocery store and buy a bag of potatoes.  You get home and make some scalloped potatoes for the block party that evening.  The next day you awake to the police breaking down your door, taking all of your kitchen appliances and arresting you for violating the EULA of the potatoes, you were only allowed to make french fries with that kind of engineered potato.   

That analogy would pertain to doing something that is legal, which is not the point. If you can show how that applies to illegally modifying Xboxes feel free to do so.

Dartful,

Red Yeast Rice is a staple of some Asian diets. (think the Asian equivalent of potatoes) Red Yeast Rice can contain lovastatin.  A substance that has an effect on the human body very simular to Statin drugs (patented).  Any product that containing lovastatin has banned by the FDA, with the exception of Statin drugs. (i.e. except for a specific use, like french fries).

http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/redyeastrice.htm

Listen to the response, and consider it BEFORE responding your self.  That's how grownup conversations happen.

[ark_ader]

If I buy a Xbox I can smash it with a hammer.  I can open the case and reformat the HDD to use in my PC (why?)  Or I can spray paint it.  Callit a Ark_ader Xbox.

I can install one of those little chips inside and play backups of my games.

What I cannot do is reverse engineer/hack and copy actively marketed software (in its original distributed format) that I have not bought.

ChadTower said his deep convictions prevent him from even contemplating/using pirated software, even though he has been caught lying and found to be doing just that.  He is a software developer.  The horror!   

Be honest, truthful, and respect the law.....

And do what the heck you want inside your own home.

Simple.   

[Kevin Mullins]

And do what the heck you want inside your own home.

And some things are just better left untold .....

Well, at least not without pictures anyways. 

[Dartful Dodger]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.  (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

As you can see I point out this same mistake:

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

I'm sorry you are confused by your own style of ramblings SavannahLion.

[SavannahLion]

Thank you. I guess I should use present instead of future tense.  (And yes. That is a typo. I'm teaching new software and I haven't worked out all the kinks yet.)

I'm sorry for the way you are Dartful.

As you can see I point out this same mistake:

A case like this is only about illegally modding Xboxes, it won't expand to other products. Everything from DVD players to automobiles do fall under this sort of "protection". Do you really want to live in a world where it's legal to steal from you through a network component?

I'm sorry you are confused by your own style of ramblings SavannahLion.

The only confusion here is yours. Choosing to listen to mass media and hysteria.

[mvsfan]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

For the record, I spoke tongue partially in cheek.  I'm aware of the more legitimate uses for modding.   Heck, I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation and some homebrew games.  Conversely, I have a friend who modded his 360 and tells me how he downloads 10 games a week that he burns to disc.  He thinks he's being clever; I think he's just really cheap.   Most people I see with modded consoles, however, still have a store-bought library of games and use the mods responsibly.

But, as I see, my original point - about not assuming wrongdoing is taking place, or at least wrongdoing worthy of a criminal trial - was not lost on the more level-headed parties in this trial, thank God.

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of,

and almost as soon as it was released, chips were out for it. half the turds back then that i knew who owned one, wouldnt ever think of actually buying a game for it.

i never saw anything bad back in the late 90s about playing a nes game on your pc, because the system was already old and crusty when someone figured out how to do it.

i believe their is a line though, when something has just come to market and some doofus wont go out and buy it and support the publisher because he can make a copy. if you really like a new game, go out and buy it.