XBOX modders caught. Might be facing Prison time if convicted.

[Thenasty]

http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/01/5561705-xbox-modder-could-spend-three-years-in-prison?gt1=43001

[Donkbaca]

Lame, it should be fair use

[Bootay]

Well the problem is they were charging money to do so and treating it as a business or side business.

[Donkbaca]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

[wp34]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

[pinballwizard79]

Wait didnt Bill Gates steal something & sell it for money too?

[Ed_McCarron]

Then again, the gov't lawyers may end up in hot water instead...

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/xbox-judge-riled/

[Bootay]

Still lame, I think.  I can pay someone to soup up my car, but can't pay someone to soup up my x-box?

I don't disagree at all. 

[DaveMMR]

I guess they have to make an example out of someone...

I completely understand the issue that MS (or Sony, Nintendo, etc.) has with people modifying their consoles, but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

Of course, IANAL and I'm sure the prosecution has DMCA verbiage on their side (along with the whole license agreements no one reads), but it's still kind of messed up. 

[Crazy Cooter]

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

Sure you can they're called "test pipes" and are marketed for "Off road use only".

[SavannahLion]

Finally, we have a judge who at least understands how out of control the whole DMCA has become.

People, in general, have completely lost touch with what it means to be er... I don't know how to describe it really. How to hack. There's this ultra disgusting mentality by the general population that hacking is bad, evil and illegal. Yet you have a ---smurf--- like Ken McGrail who is testifying against this kid modding 360's and Ken McGrail himself did the same ---smurfing--- thing!

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks. These are the same clueless twits that are more than willing to stand in line as TSA agents bombard their bodies with X-Rays (there's a reason why one wears lead at the doctors) or let TSA agents fondle their pathetic excuses for a penis.

There's a clear divide amongst the general population. The group of people who understand... well things. They move forward and improve their lives in a manner that all people should be able to. Then there's the pathetic brain dead sheep ---smurfs--- who willingly listen to whatever the media tells them never once realizing that what is "illegal" for them is perfectly acceptable by the very people spouting this nonsense. I feel like we're surrounded by illiterate serfs listening to, and believing, the nonsense the world is still flat.

It would be nice to move into the next century during my life time.

[SNAAKE]

woo I am next lol.. guess I should never bump my thread again



this seems pretty accurate and the morons that dont understand technology might "get it".
Crippen’s lawyers intend to call Andrew “Bunnie” Huang in a bid to make that point.
“Basically, what he did was insufficient on his own to violate anything,” Huang said in a recent telephone interview.

[Thenasty]

don't worry Snake, no RAT @ BYOAC 

You can MOD my console anytime.

[Ed_McCarron]

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks.

Many years ago, I tried to educate people about the difference between hackers, crackers, and phreakers.

I gave up.

[SavannahLion]

Every time I hear someone somewhere denounce hacking, it makes me want to throttle their ---smurfing--- necks.

Many years ago, I tried to educate people about the difference between hackers, crackers, and phreakers.

I gave up.

Thank you. Nice to know I'm not the only one.

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

 Gee... Did you actually... I dunno, actually read the article?  Maybe actually realize that actually isn't the basis of the lawsuit. Oh wait better yet realize that Ken McGrail did the exact same ---smurfing--- thing and he's the prosecuting expert witness?

How does that phrase go? Something about a black kettle?

[Kevin Mullins]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

“Basically, what he did was insufficient on his own to violate anything,” Huang said in a recent telephone interview.[/b]

Exactly.
The modding “service” part has nothing to do with what the owner of the unit does with it after that.

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.
No exceptions.

If that were true, then why isn’t this case about that ?
This guy is being tried for giving the machines the “ability” to do that, he is not being tried for any actual pirated software.
Totally bogus.

[Malenko]

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

I mod 360s. I do not sell the games. Of course I dont do it as a business, I just do it for friends and what not. Also, I dont charge for the mod. I also own more 360 games then you that I bought new.

[Ed_McCarron]

Even if you just do the modchip and don't supply ANY pirated games, you are supplying a pirated version of the xboxes bios, right?  I've always wondered why they didn't make a fuss about that.

[Malenko]

That mean Im not like that guy, or that its not 100% of the time?

[SavannahLion]

Oh good. You did. Now how about posting relevant comments instead of your usual ass ones?

[wp34]

You can't pay someone to remove your catalytic converter though. 

Sure you can they're called "test pipes" and are marketed for "Off road use only".

You quotes kinda make my point.   

[Dartful Dodger]

I understand that this guy is breaking the law by modifying the system to get around copyrights and user agreements, but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

A couple of months ago some guy planned on setting off a bomb in Wrigleyville during a Cubs game and Homeland Security is going after a college student who planned on using pirated software.

[ChadTower]

That mean Im not like that guy, or that its not 100% of the time?

It means you're not selling a modding service and thus not a "guy like this".

[SavannahLion]

I understand that this guy is breaking the law by modifying the system to get around copyrights and user agreements, but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

A couple of months ago some guy planned on setting off a bomb in Wrigleyville during a Cubs game and Homeland Security is going after a college student who planned on using pirated software.

I predicted something along this line a few years ago on a different forum (gamespy i think). I'll see if I can find my notes. IIRC there's a set of laws that interact in such a way that defines hackers/crackers/breakers/pirates as terrorists. I don't think the term hacker is actually defined in the dmca, but I believe it is used. The definition appears elsewhere in law and it is lumped in with terrorist activities.

I think the intent was to have some mechanism for dealing with Chinese black hats attempting to .penetrate whatever passes for DARPA now.

[Benevolance]

If that were true, then why isn’t this case about that ?

Probably for the same reason that trials involving organized crime are usually based around tax evasion, rather than any other sort of criminal activity. Not that modding an Xbox ranks up their with the mafia. But it's likely more convenient for the government to tackle the issue this way, and they may have hoped to give the DMCA more anti-piracy teeth with a favorable ruling.

[SNAAKE]

100% of the time, guys like this are selling illegal copies of software.

No exceptions.

maybe not 100% of the time. half the people take the chance...

personally I think its really..really dumb to even consider games. there is no "case" if you sell games. guaranteed to get in trouble.

[atomikbohm]

Alright I'll admit the nuances of this argument .. I mean discussion, are lost on me so can someone please answer a question for me?

My understandings / assumptions:

1) As I understand it the law has provisions for the owner of a software license (i.e. a X-Box game) to make 1 copy to use as a backup to protect his / her investment in the software in case of damage.  Correct?


The Fictional situation / The Questions

My 7 year old picks up my Xbox while the disk is spinning and the Xbox trashes my game. <Boo hoo> Luckily, I made a backup <Yeah Me>, But my unmodified XBox won't play it <Boo Hoo>  

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

It sounds to me like Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo are breaking the law (or at least the spirit of the Backup Law) by making it impossible to play your 1 legal back up.  That being the case why aren't they being publicly crucified to serve as a warning to other companies by the federal government?  

Those defending Microsoft and the Prosecution please enlighten me to the error of my reasoning.

[Kevin Mullins]

but I don't understand why Homeland Security is involved?

Me either ......

Even if you just do the modchip and don't supply ANY pirated games, you are supplying a pirated version of the xboxes bios, right?

Now that may be a valid point.
I wouldn't call it a "pirated" version of the bios since it isn't a true copy of it.
But I guess modifying it based on their original software might be a problem.
 

My 7 year old picks up my Xbox while the disk is spinning and the Xbox trashes my game. <Boo hoo> Luckily, I made a backup <Yeah Me>, But my unmodified XBox won't play it <Boo Hoo> 
 

Exactly. 

[SavannahLion]

@atomikbohm

Quotes aren't working for me so....

It depends on which area of the law and what specific hardware you're talking about. There is a specific clause in copyright law that allows for backups based on the volatile medium in use at the time. Nintendo (amongst others) have argued that this does not apply to "non-volatile" medium eg cartridges. This position was later bolstered by laws like the DMCA that made circumventing copyright measures illegal. I don't believe the strength of the DMCA comes from the actual act of copying. It comes from the steps one must take to bypass or cripple the so-called security measures to protect that content. Compared to other laws still in place, the DMCA is an aberration that violates the very foundations of the U.S. and who we [strike]were[/strike] are.

Your logic is reasonable with exception to replacement. There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage. That is the purpose of that law. To protect the consumer. The problem is that the DMCA isn't budging because media giants (read: lobbyists) like it too much. Anybody worth their salt can see the conflicts. But until the nation can stand together and say ---fudgesicle--- you it's only going to become more draconian

[atomikbohm]

There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage.

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

By "replaced" I was refering to the problem of being allowed to create 1 copy that you can't use.  So if you can't use your copy.  Where are you going to get a copy you can use.  After all you are entitled under the law...

[Ed_McCarron]

There is nothing that requires a company to replace your product due to user damage.

How does my back up copy of my legally purchased game protect my investment?  (i.e. how do I get my game replaced?)

By "replaced" I was refering to the problem of being allowed to create 1 copy that you can't use.  So if you can't use your copy.  Where are you going to get a copy you can use.  After all you are entitled under the law...

All they'd need to do is start a procedure where you mail back your damaged disc and you get a new one.  Problem solved.

Of course, they'd rather you buy another one.  Thats why they don't.

[SNAAKE]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/crippen-dismissed/

yeah...


guessing they wanna get even more evidence of this horrendous "hacking crime" and get some more homeland security and stuff. maybe jack bauer will step in and cap a knee or two lol..

[jennifer]

        These machines are capable of much more than most, guidance systems for example. Is it any wonder homeland security is involved?

[Donkbaca]

yeah, they send you a replacement disc for 20 bucks, and its only for games MS actually publishes

[DaveMMR]

but I feel if you buy something, you can do as you please with it - up to and including modding.   We all know the underlying intention of most people (yeah... backups...), but how can you assume anything without concrete evidence?

I absolutely agree with ya on the freedom and modding part. I own it, it is mine to do with as I please.

But I would also like to note, coming from a father who has had kids destroy many a CD disc with scratches and such…long before XBOX360 either….I’m all for the true meaning of playing “backups”. ---fudgesicle--- destroying a $50-$60-$70 “game” just because the disc is scratched, or loaned it out to their buddies and they scratched it all to hell. Burn me a copy, let them play that one, when it gets messed up beyond playability, I burn me another one.

For the record, I spoke tongue partially in cheek.  I'm aware of the more legitimate uses for modding.   Heck, I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation and some homebrew games.  Conversely, I have a friend who modded his 360 and tells me how he downloads 10 games a week that he burns to disc.  He thinks he's being clever; I think he's just really cheap.   Most people I see with modded consoles, however, still have a store-bought library of games and use the mods responsibly.

But, as I see, my original point - about not assuming wrongdoing is taking place, or at least wrongdoing worthy of a criminal trial - was not lost on the more level-headed parties in this trial, thank God.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation

\\

Oh good, I always thought playing roms were playing pirated games...  thanks for clearing that up.

[DaveMMR]

I modded my old Xbox and never once did I play a pirated game on it - just emulation

\\

Oh good, I always thought playing roms were playing pirated games...  thanks for clearing that up.

Fair enough.  You're right.  I should have said, I didn't play pirated Xbox games.  (Also, lest it seem I'm throwing stones - it wasn't for any "this is wrong" type-reasons.  Just wasn't playing much Xbox at the time) 

[Dartful Dodger]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.

If the game was damaged when you bought it, the store you bought it from would give you another one.  

The members of this site are playing games that are 30+ years old so our view on this subject is skewed, but games are no different than any other product. Games eventually get shelved, sold or thrown out.  Games are made to be replaced and expire, just like everything else.  If you want to collect games you can do what the nerds with the Star Wars dolls do and buy two. One to play with and one to keep in its original packaging.

What he did was illegal, but unless he's modding the XBox to use in a nuclear missile, this case doesn't require Homeland Security.

[Ed_McCarron]

A modded Xbox is used for playing illegal games. Every other excuse is just that, an excuse.

Wrong answer.  My XBOX has never seen a game since I've owned it.  Period.  Legal or otherwise.  I modded it to use with XBMC as a cheap media player.

[SNAAKE]

dont think I ever played any bootleg xbox games either. it was for media center and emulators thats it. and I had legit/store bought games for xbox live.