XBOX modders caught. Might be facing Prison time if convicted.

[WhereEaglesDare]

the main reason that the sega dreamcast was a failure is because of people like this. Dreamcast came out a few years before the dmca was even heard of, and almost as soon as it was released, chips were out for it. half the turds back then that i knew who owned one, wouldnt ever think of actually buying a game for it.

i have to say a big "NOT" to this one.

the dreamcast died a quick death yes, but piracy was a side effect, not a cause, and a chip was NEVER needed to play any unsigned disc in the dreamcast, any old cdr would play in it...

by the time all homebrew apps and the pirate ISO sites popped up, the dreamcast was gone.dead.

There was very little 3rd party support to Sega because of how badly the Saturn performed, plus I heard that the president of Sega of America came out after the Saturns release and called it an abortion of a console.

But the fact is, even though the DreamCast is superior system, the PS2 won out because of DVD Support and a lot of politics.

[jennifer]

 

the dreamcast died a quick death yes, but piracy was a side effect, not a cause, and a chip was NEVER needed to play any unsigned disc in the dreamcast, any old cdr would play in it...

by the time all homebrew apps and the pirate ISO sites popped up, the dreamcast was gone.dead.
[/quote]
              The fact it plays any cdr kinda points to death by pirates, giving us the problems we face today, locked out. The console itself most probably
  not the big revenue source, but the software on the otherhand would be. They want to SELL you a game.

[ChadTower]

Nope.  But it used to be one of the cheapest.

It still may be given how far the cost of an original Xbox has dropped and how smoothly it upscales.  The only thing I can see that comes close is the new XBMC versions for desktops - if you happen to have a video card around that talks nicely to your TV and an interface as convenient to use as either the Xbox controller or the Xbox remote.

[Dartful Dodger]

Just wondering dartful, is everyone who streams media automatically a pirate?

My buddy wanted to stream legally and instead of buying/building a new computer he got a used device that can stream legally.

[DaveMMR]

RE: My original Dreamcast reply a few pages back.    Can we work on getting our quoting straight?     I'm reading quotes inside quotes and I'm sitting here saying to myself "I didn't say that".  Now onto this:

(commenting on a statement regarding the Dreamcast and piracy)
The fact it plays any cdr kinda points to death by pirates, giving us the problems we face today, locked out. The console itself most probably
  not the big revenue source, but the software on the otherhand would be. They want to SELL you a game.

Again, pirating did not kill the Dreamcast.  It did itself in for the reasons (not quoted for some reason) I mentioned above (a) timing (b) competition (c) lack of support due to poor track record.  

Yeah, it could play unsigned CD-ROMS but DC software ran on GD-ROMS, which is double the capacity of of a standard CD-ROM.  Computers could read some of the GD-ROM but would not read past the first track where the game code lies.    

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.   It was the late 90's and we all didn't have broadband access to download large Gigabyte-sized files, nor did we all have burners capable of reproducing the data that the DC could read.   We were happy to purchase games -- once they eventually released them (early adopters know what I'm talking about here).  

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Now.... if pirating is killing anything, it's computer gaming.  The computer gamers are also the technically advanced and would know how to get software illegally.  But pirating on consoles is not something done by the average owner due to the roadblocks put in there.  It's far too technical and convoluted for non-techies to bother with (or even know about).   No console failure in recent memory (ever?) can be blamed on pirating.    

[ErikRuud]

Again, pirating did not kill the Dreamcast.  It did itself in for the reasons (not quoted for some reason) I mentioned above (a) timing (b) competition (c) lack of support due to poor track record.  

You are correct Sega had some really bad timing/decision making at that point.  They brought out the Saturn so fast after the Sega 32x that they effectively killed their own platform.  Then they did almost the same thing to the Saturn when they brought out the Dreamcast.  Competition from from Sony and Nintendo didn't help either.

[ChadTower]

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.  

...

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Yes, there were workarounds, and yes, they were effective and allowed the easiest pirating of any console to that point.

I strongly disagree that it didn't affect software sales.  It was easy to get pirated Dreamcast games.  They were all over the same internet locations where people were pirating any other software.  They were also available, right out in the open, on Ebay, at flea markets, wherever people were doing shady business at the time.  Awareness had not caught up to piracy yet so people were in no danger selling them right out in the open.   The Dreamcast was the first system that could be pirated by the average user.

Now, did that kill the Dreamcast?  No.  Sega torpedoed the Dreamcast voluntarily through lack of support and basic lack of desire.  The Dreamcast was really just a boxed version of the Naomi platform anyway and that's what Sega was really interested in going forward.

[ChadTower]

The GD-ROM concept was a good one.  The flaw was that very few of the games were actually bigger than a CDR.  All people had to do was read off the GD-ROM, write it to a CDR, and then throw it in a mass burner.  Or on an ftp site.  Sega's anti-Sony approach of engine generated animation rather than prerendered video actually bit them in the ass a little.  If their games were as bloated with cutscenes as Playstation games were they would all have been bigger than a CDR and much harder to pirate.

[DaveMMR]

Were there workarounds to overcome this?   Yeah probably - but I don't know.  

...

What the Dreamcast's ability to read unsigned CD-R's led to was homebrew games (of varying quality).  This did not affect software sales, and, as others have mentioned, the DC was pretty much dead once there was homebrewing in the works.  

Yes, there were workarounds, and yes, they were effective and allowed the easiest pirating of any console to that point.

I strongly disagree that it didn't affect software sales.  It was easy to get pirated Dreamcast games.  They were all over the same internet locations where people were pirating any other software.  They were also available, right out in the open, on Ebay, at flea markets, wherever people were doing shady business at the time.  Awareness had not caught up to piracy yet so people were in no danger selling them right out in the open.   The Dreamcast was the first system that could be pirated by the average user.

Now, did that kill the Dreamcast?  No.  Sega torpedoed the Dreamcast voluntarily through lack of support and basic lack of desire.  The Dreamcast was really just a boxed version of the Naomi platform anyway and that's what Sega was really interested in going forward.

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.   I don't doubt you were able to find bootlegged DC games (not unlike the bootlegged PS1 games I always came across), but it wasn't like those guys walking into bars and laundromats with the bootleg DVDs for sale they have nowadays.

Now, could the DC be pirated by the average user back then (i.e. not anyone on this board)?   Again, don't think so.  I did a search on DC backups.  Here's a snippet:

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

Mind you, this is information in 2010 - not 1999 when many of us were still on dial-up.    And all the pages I saw in my search required software downloads, multiple steps AND an .iso download.

Sorry, I find it hard to believe there was ferocious copying of DC games during its lifespan.

(Addendum:  Though I can believe it was more prevalent around when Pinballjim stated -- after it was already dead and stores weren't really selling new games anyhow.)

[RayB]

Sega still sells brand new Dreamcasts:

http://www.amazon.com/Sega-Dreamcast-Console/dp/B00000K2R4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292378323&sr=8-1

[jennifer]

        Pong, Atari, nintendo, piracy wasnt even a concept at this time,[that I"m aware of] computers were a crazy fad, barbaric and slow.[Apple, IBM]
Thats where I quit consoles and started collecting arcade games. The timelines of what you guys are saying are correct however and with interesting
points, [1] burners were not somthing just everyone had. [2] dial-up, nuf said there. The Dreamcast may have or not had a piracy problem, but that
is about the the time the problem started. The one thing all these games[and the new ones] have in common is that they are the most state of the
art games/consoles of their day.

[ChadTower]

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.

Anyone in middle school, high school, or college at the time had easy access to someone selling them.  There was always one person that was doing it.  Same with PS1 games although that required hardware mods in many cases.  They were easily available on Ebay.  Piracy controls on Ebay didn't come along until much later.  I knew more people with Dreamcasts that had pirated games than did not have any.

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

All you had to know is that someone local knew someone with a pirated game.  Sure, it took effort to get it from GDROM to CDROM, but once that was done, a person could turn out as many copies as they had blank discs.  One kid in a class buys a batch of copies off Ebay and sells copies to his friends to pay for the CD writer.  Happened all over the place.

What really slowed piracy on the DC was Gamestop prices.  When Gamestop started treating the DC like a worthless clearance item, probably because so many were buying pirated games rather than used games, you could get used games cheaper than copies.  

BTW, you don't need everyone to have a burner, you only need one.  And it was very possible to download large items over dialup.  There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  Many free FTP clients did it too.  You have to realize that it only took one person in a group to be able to do these things and pass on the games to everybody else.  Maybe you folks weren't exposed but it really was widespread in a lot of places.

[ChadTower]

Widespread piracy certainly hasn't killed the DS and you can find flash cards EVERYWHERE.

I think you could argue piracy has beaten the PSP to death in the US, though.

Yeah, nobody is saying piracy is what killed the Dreamcast.  It didn't.  Sega did that themselves.

Most of the DS users I know are elementary school kids.  They aren't old enough to steal games unless their parents do it for them.  The age of the average user is probably what is saving the DS.  I don't know many adults who are regular DS users.  Nearly every kid I know has one.

[Bootay]

From what I remember, CD Burners were relatively cheap and high speed Internet was pretty common at least in my area during the Dreamcast times. And they even had a broadband adapter for the Dreamcast.

But anyhow, yes it is true that a PC cannot read a GD-ROM but what was done back then was they got a device that was meant for developers to make their own games. What this device did was allow you to connect the Dreamcast to your PC. This device was made by Sega FYI. So they just linked the Dreamcast to the PC and copied the data from the GD-ROM to the PC, downsampled the audio and sometimes a few video clips, then burn the data to a CD and the Dreamcast would read them just fine with a Boot CD that the pirate scene made. Later they figured out a way to make the bootlegs work without the boot cd.

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

[ChadTower]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

[Bootay]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Ahh..well I wasn't aware of the price or licensing involved, but the pirate scene sure had their own. heh

[ChadTower]

Ahh..well I wasn't aware of the price or licensing involved, but the pirate scene sure had their own. heh

Yep, and if Sega had ever tracked that back to the owner, there would have been both a massive lawsuit and possible criminal charges over it.

Eventually they did start popping up on Ebay as "old used goods" but that was way after the console was totally dead and out of stores.  A lot of people were interested in them because of the Windows CE engine the Dreamcast runs.

EDIT:  if I think about it that might still be the best way to write your own arcade game and run it on "real arcade hardware".  It could be written/compiled mostly on NT and run on a Naomi boardset.

[Ed_McCarron]

There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  

ZMODEM FTW!

[ChadTower]

Would you believe GetRight is still supported and used?  I would have thought that app unnecessary years ago.

[WhereEaglesDare]

Personally what always cracked me up about programmers was when Acclaim did some interview and you could see the Doctor V64s in the background.  If you think it's really outsider pirates ripping and distributing those ISOs, you're nuts.

Yea I always believed most games were leaked by someone in the distributor.  This still happens today, especially with DVD Movies.  You can usually get a DVD Rip a month before DVD release.

[jamesjones626]

Oh lawdy what i mess this thread has turned into...................  One thing is for sure, you will never ever stop pirating of any kind, you can only slow it down. 

[DaveMMR]

Fully aware I'm only speaking of my immediate surroundings.... I knew plenty of people who owned Dreamcast's; no one had pirated software.

Anyone in middle school, high school, or college at the time had easy access to someone selling them.  There was always one person that was doing it.  Same with PS1 games although that required hardware mods in many cases.  They were easily available on Ebay.  Piracy controls on Ebay didn't come along until much later.  I knew more people with Dreamcasts that had pirated games than did not have any.

Second, YOU CAN NOT DIRECTLY COPY THE GAMES FROM THE ORIGINAL DISC. It's not the same as PSX - you can't rent a DC game and do a CD to CD copy. It simply doesn't work. You HAVE to download the images. Regular CD-ROM drives are incapable of reading the high-density sections of GD-ROM discs, and rumors of 'hacked cd-rom firmware' to read GD-ROMs are just that: rumors.

All you had to know is that someone local knew someone with a pirated game.  Sure, it took effort to get it from GDROM to CDROM, but once that was done, a person could turn out as many copies as they had blank discs.  One kid in a class buys a batch of copies off Ebay and sells copies to his friends to pay for the CD writer.  Happened all over the place.

What really slowed piracy on the DC was Gamestop prices.  When Gamestop started treating the DC like a worthless clearance item, probably because so many were buying pirated games rather than used games, you could get used games cheaper than copies.  

BTW, you don't need everyone to have a burner, you only need one.  And it was very possible to download large items over dialup.  There were several free download resumers that would manage lost connections or disconnects to use the phone.  Many free FTP clients did it too.  You have to realize that it only took one person in a group to be able to do these things and pass on the games to everybody else.  Maybe you folks weren't exposed but it really was widespread in a lot of places.

For each DC owner in 1999 who knew about any of this, you need to remember the hundreds who didn't know anything about computers, downloading, burner, etc. and bought the games because they knew of no other option.    These are people who weren't using download tools for large files over dialup.   Maybe they bought a couple of bootlegged games at a flea market, but it's no where near "rampant" piracy.    Besides, they were too busy downloading MP3's at that time anyway.

Going further: I believe those who pirate console games are the vast minority.   Consoles are tailored towards the less technically-inclined (though techies can enjoy them too).  You don't have to do anything: just plug it in and play.    Think about all the people who couldn't even program a VCR back in the 80's/90's.  It was always the joke, but it's all right there in the manual, the one people like to ignore.  These are the same people who not only aren't modding their consoles, they wouldn't even know what the heck we're talking about.  Just said the words "void warranty" and they wouldn't hear another word.    Even with the DS: easy to pirate with flash cards, but a large portion of its audience are younger gamers (read: under 10) who don't seem like they would be schooled on Piracy 101.

This is the reason, more or less, game publishers are flocking to consoles and leaving PC gaming to die.   Why support a platform where it's almost impossible to prevent piracy and the gamers themselves are even openly announcing that they plan to pirate said game because they feel "it's their right to do so" for whatever reason? 

[SavannahLion]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

[jennifer]

      Yes, you do dare mention what it was, there are no pirates here [really], and I"m not a moron [sometimes].

[Bootay]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

Savannah: Nah, I wasn't confusing anything with the Katana. I wasn't even referring to the Katana at all actually. There was a device you could buy that allowed you to link your Dreamcast to your PC to copy the contents of the GD-ROM to your PC in a folder, then you could shrink some of the files by re-encoding, then burn the files to a CD-ROM and they would play on the Dreamcast. No one used the Katana to pirate back then (That I know of). I cannot remember the device's name though, I might have to research it. Also, some people used the broadband adapter to FTP the contents to their PC and do the same. Like mentioned before, most games were no bigger than a cd-rom, and the ones that were just needed a little downsampling. A lot of the games had large dummy files on them that could be removed too. There were a few games that were too big to fit on CD no matter what, D2 for example. And I hear the original is expensive on Ebay. The pirate scene eventually split it onto multiple cds. I believe the original was 2 full GD-ROMS, and the scene split the game onto 8 CDs. And you needed a guide to know when to switch cds.

[SavannahLion]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

I don't recall Sega ever produced a different dev kit other than katana. Sega really didn't love the console as much as they could have.

[Bootay]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

I don't recall Sega ever produced a different dev kit other than katana. Sega really didn't love the console as much as they could have.

I may be thinking of the link cable and if so I guess I was mistaken in claiming that Sega made it. It has been quite some time since the DC scene. 

Sounds like you have a good memory though.

[SavannahLion]

I like history.

[WhereEaglesDare]

I like history.

Indeed, my son will be learning about the great Dreamcast Debacle in World History 10 years from now.

[SavannahLion]

I like history.

Indeed, my son will be learning about the great Dreamcast Debacle in World History 10 years from now.

That would be illegal under the DMCA.

[DaveMMR]

Just thought I would share that info for the ones that were confused on how they got the PC to read the GD-ROM. Sega screwed themselves more or less with this device, but like people have already stated, the Dreamcast was already on a decline anyway.

That device was part of the standard software development kit provided by Sega to third party developers.  It was very expensive and came with a very heavy license agreement.  Of course, someone abused it, as always happens.  Devices like that exist for every closed software platform.  They have to or else the software development process would be severely slowed down by the nature of writing out masters for rapid testing.

Thought I should chime in.

To clarify what ChadTower wrote. Dreamcast used a full blown development PC with a GD-ROM burner as part of it's specifications. Essentially, it was a hybrid system with Dreamcast and PC hardware connected together via SCSI. Google Katana if you want more info. I remember this beast because I tried to get a hold of one (a Katana marked one no less) when it appeared on eBay (and before any morons chime in about piracy, I wanted this as a collector and the Dreamcast was already so far gone the Living Will already kicked in). Katana was not the basis for all the piracy that went on with the Dreamcast. Maybe some, if any, but most certainly not all.

Bootay is probably confusing Katana with what was actually used to copy the games. Do I dare mention what it was and have a moron accuse me of piracy?

How much did it eventually sell for, pirate!  (just kidding)   

Actually, I wouldn't mind having one of those too as a collector.  Here's something I came up with (but with the DC logo - not the Katana)
http://retro-treasures.blogspot.com/2008/05/sega-katana-hkt-0120-dreamcast.html

[SavannahLion]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

[WhereEaglesDare]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

Whoa!  Thats nuts for a piece of 10 year old tech.

[SavannahLion]

TBH I don't rightly remember the exact amount. I think I bid somewhere in $500 range. It sat there for days with me as the highest bidder until the last half hour when the snipers came in and a bidding war ensued. I want to say it was at least four figures.

I recall it went to a well known (though not by me) SEGA collector. I'll have to find the archive to be certain.

Whoa!  Thats nuts for a piece of 10 year old tech.

Maybe. I'm not 100% sure on that. I was bidding on a lot of old console tech back then. A lot of Atari and Sega a peripherals and stuff with some Nintendo (eg FDS) whenever they cropped up.

[ChadTower]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

[ark_ader]

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

Which a few of those games, funnily enough,  were on that disc you downloaded for the xbox.   

[SavannahLion]

Hmmm.. the only thing that comes to mind is kallistios or the serial cable used prior to the broadband adapter. Lik-Sang might have sold a commercially made one, IIRC the cable or one like it was also used on a Linux homebrew dev kit. None of it was sanctioned by Sega that I can recall.

People were using the broadband adapter to rip games at one point.

Uh... duh?