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Author Topic: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.  (Read 11257 times)

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dkersten

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aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« on: July 18, 2014, 02:23:11 pm »
I got my aimtrak guns in yesterday, so I tore into my cab to install them.

I already had 2 external USB's with the idea of only plugging in the guns when I need them.  Not so sure that will work as each time I unplug and replug them in they get assigned new ID's in mame.  I am up to GUN5 and GUN6 right now, and I had to unplug GUN5 once and when I plugged it back in, GUN6 became GUN5 and now my P1 gun is GUN6...  Each time I have to reconfigure things in mame..

So I had to cut a slot for the sensor.  I chose to leave it in the little case it comes in instead of decasing it.. So I needed a 6.25" wide by 1/2" tall slot.  I pulled the monitor out of the cab, got the PC out so I could lay it down, removed the inner bezel for the monitor, and then marked it out on the front of the outer bezel.  This is the most visible surface on the cabinet, so I was going slow.  Thing is, I had little room, so I couldn't use a router or a jigsaw.

So I drilled it out first with a 3/8 drill bit, then used a pneumatic airsaw to slowly cut it to the marked edge.  This went fairly well with the exception of the sides.. they are only .5" wide and the blade is over .25", so getting a nice straight cut that had good square corners was not really possible.  At 2 feet it looks fine, but any closer and I am not happy with the results.  Thankfully the paint is black, so a black sharpie filled in any visible wood and overall it looks decent.  A lot of filing to get it right, and the sensor fits nice and snug and protrudes about 1/8" from the surface, just the look I was going for.  I did a pressure fit and it is not going anywhere.

I hope that this is not part of the problems though.  One problem I have is on the P2 gun, the bottom right corner is really tough to hit.  Even after several calibrations in windows, I have to be over 6 feet from the sensor to get that corner of the screen.

So at first I couldn't get them to calibrate.  Then I got one to calibrate but the other had stopped working as a mouse and while it was read as a sensor, it wouldn't move the mouse making calibration not work.  The aimtrak tool would crash over and over.  I then rebooted and then the aimtrak utility wouldn't even launch completely.. it would be memory resident but the application would not come up.  By removing both guns I finally got it to launch.  I then ended up changing the device id number and then changed them back on each, and after that they worked.  I got them calibrated in windows, turned off the 5 second calibration, and got into Mame.

I use Mala, so I edited the mame config from there.  I checked light guns, changed the light gun control to mouse, and checked the "dual light gun" option.  The last one was the culprit for the next hour.  Mame simply wouldn't allow it to configure with this option checked.  I could control the UI with each gun, but when I went to add it to the lightgun x and y axes, it simply wouldn't come up.  I could do it with mouse, analog joystick, trackball, or spinner, but not the guns.

Finally I turned off the dual lightgun checkbox and it came up on the next try.

Came up as Gun5 and Gun6, but after plugging and unplugging the guns so many times, it didn't surprise me much.  My u360 joysticks come up as joy1 and joy2 if the ipac isn't plugged in, but adding that makes them joy2 and joy3.. haven't figured that one out yet..

So I fired up Lethal Enforcers.  Couldn't get it to reload off screen.  Read a little here and others seemed to have the same problem, while some didn't.  FIgured maybe it was a mame version issue or something, so time to move on.  Area 51.  P2 could reload, P1 couldn't.  I checked configuration and it was identical.  No option in that game to program the Gun5 B1 to reload, it apparently just senses the gun being off the screen and allows it, but maybe that is the problem.. Maybe since the aimtrack no longer sends B0 on trigger pull off the screen (it sends B1(right click), I have to change the aimtrack to send B0 (left click) even off screen.. Matter of fact that makes sense now because I could get it to reload if I shot at the black part of the left or right screen.  I will try that tonight, and I bet it works.. But then that will screw up the games that DO work.. *sigh*

So then I fired up Carnevil.  After calibrating in the game via the f2 menu, it seemed to work well..  I had to turn off the MAME crosshair as it was off from the game's crosshair after calibration.  This comes down to a problem I can't get around at this point.  If I am even a couple inches from where I calibrate in windows, the corners of the screen can be off by 2 or 3 inches.  I think this is because I am off axis from the sensor.  Also, and this is my #1 complaint, if I am less than 3 feet from the sensor, it pretty much doesn't work at all.  It will sometimes read a little but jumps all over the screen and it super glitchy.  Matter of fact, the sweet spot seems to be 5-6 feet from the sensor, but again even being 2 or 3 inches from where I calibrated and the corners are off by an inch or more. 

The P2 gun gave me a TON of problems here too.  I could calibrate over and over, but even at 5 or 6 feet back where it was the best, I had a hell of a time with the bottom right corner of the screen.  The in game calibration is looking for a shot at 255 255, and you just can't seem to hit it when off axis to the right of the sensor.  I think the gun is going off screen at this point, and again the aimtrak firmware converts that into a right click instead of a left click and it won't register..

Then on top of this, the P2 gun kepts stopping in the middle of a game.  The player would move closer or further away, left or right, and after a random amount of time it would start working again.  Not sure what was helping or not as we were in the midst of a game.  THIS is a huge issue because if I can't get it to work at least reliably consistent, I don't want it.

A third issue came up with it but I am sure there is a setting somewhere for it.. The p2 in carnevil was stuck on some kind of unlimited ammo thing.. he always had 6 rounds available and never had to reload.  Since I only changed the mame controls and the gun calibration in the service menu, I don't know how this got changed or even if there is a setting or if it is a bug in the rom.. ??

So from there I went on to try Terminator2 and RevolutionX, but I guess you can't run those with these kind of guns.. bummer.  I could configure them just fine, but once I launched the game I only got the crosshair in the top left of the screen and nothing else.  Maybe if I configured one as a joystick in mame it would work?

And finally, one more huge issue:  The sensor seems to be picking up random IR noise and translating it to right and left clicks, which royally screws up windows and my front end when out of a game.  I put the guns totally out of sight of the sensor and they don't move, but even without touching the computer or control panel, just sitting there I can watch windows try to pop up, menus come up, among other annoying things.  WTH??  Anyone else run into this and have a solution?  I walked away last night after messing with this for 7 hours straight, and 20 minutes later I came back and my MaLa was minimized, and a half dozen menus were on the screen.  If I can't come up with a fix for this, these simply aren't going to work..

Ideally I would love to have the trigger and front buttons keyed to something other than mouse clicks.. Mame sees them as GunX B0 and B1, why can't windows see them as joystick buttons?

Any advice or insight here would be great.

dkersten

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 03:21:52 pm »
OK, worked a couple things out..

The reload workaround is to add a offscreen_reload 1 to mame.ini.  I saw this but couldn't find where to add it to the ini, so I will try just putting it wherever and see if it works.  This prevents me from having to change the config for certain games.  Yay!

I will try reassigning buttons so I don't get random clicks while out of games.

Finally, I guess from reading it looks like the sensor bar is simply an IR transmitter, not a receiver.  This means that even when the guns are not pointed at the screen, any stray IR they pick up will cause the cursor to move.  However, this doesn't explain why I am getting random clicks even when not touching the computer.  Hoping that by changing the buttons and trigger to regular joystick buttons instead of mouse clicks it will fix this since joystick clicks won't affect windows or MaLa.

Also thinking that since the sensor bar is just an IR transmitter, pushing it so it is sticking out further will give better results closer to the screen (ie closer than 3 feet from the sensor)..  and maybe improve the accuracy in the corners..  Might have to try that, but I will have to tear into it again to remove the tape I wrapped around the body of the IR bar so I can push it further out..

Slippyblade

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 04:41:43 pm »
Yeah. the "sensor bar" on that type of gun is little more than a series of IR LED's.  The gun is effectively a camera that triangulates position based on where the lights are.  You can actually get away with using almost ANY light source as long as it's paired.

dkersten

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 05:07:00 pm »
Well, I went home at lunch to check out a couple things..

First, I can point the gun all around the room and most places I point it at I get "mouse" movement.  Lots of IR interference then..

Second, I enabled the offscreen_reload and still get the same results.  Soon as I shoot off the screen doesn't work.  But on Lethal Enforcers if I target the very top right corner I can get it to reload.  On Area 51 it is still just the dead monitor space between the game screen and the edge of the monitor.  Off screen still doesn't work. 

The only thing I can think of is that offscreen_reload ONLY works with mouse clicks.  I changed the buttons to joystick buttons when I enabled the mame.ini switch.  So tonight I will turn the buttons back to mouse clicks and try it again. 

Third, I am pretty convinced that the glitchy mouse clicks going on are not from the guns.  I am pretty confident right now that the ipac is causing the problems.  The reason being that A) the mouse clicks from the guns are a button, so if I am not pressing them, they shouldn't be going off, and B) I changed the gun buttons to be joystick buttons and still have this crazy behavior.  I was trying to get into the mame config from Mala and it kept closing on me while not touching anything..  It is acting like I am mashing buttons all over, all the time.  I recall seeing some weird stuff like this last night before I got the guns even installed.  I think the usb hub I got is maybe causing issues with the ipac.  I will move it to a dedicated port on the PC tonight and see if it changes the behavior instead of sharing the ports with the guns. 

Slippyblade

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 05:47:19 pm »
USB hub?  Powered or no?  If it's an unpowered hub you might be starving the devices.  If that's the case then moving to the PC ports should fix it.  Also try just using a powered hub.

yotsuya

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 05:49:47 pm »
Do you have any lamps or bright lights directly across from the AIMTrak sensor? That can cause issues.
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eds1275

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 06:52:30 pm »
My issues with the aimtrak are nearly gone. They are very good FOR SENSOR BAR GUNS and pretty much the only option we have available - they are a lot of fun but far from perfect (if you define perfect being a proper lightgun.)

First, I found that I had to tilt my sensor bar down a bunch to get it to register in all corners. Then, I turned off the lights in the room to calibrate. The only light fixture in the room with the machine has a light fixture sort of right between where the player stands and the machine is. I added a lamp in the corner of the room, no more problems. I also leave my guns plugged in to stop the headache of reassignment. If some jerk actually unplugs them and things get weird, I turn it off, plug them back in, and boot up. No problems with this so far.

SpatzST

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 11:46:07 pm »
did you change all the recommended settings in the mame.ini? theres 3
in the Aimtrak software, you should be set to mouse input, not joystick. 

i also just got aimtraks! They are pretty good, some games still aren't possible to play such as Police Trainer since you have to act very quickly, but the lag time between the IR and the screen is too obvious for any fast reaction shots.


Connorsdad

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2014, 04:53:06 am »
I think they are awesome but I too have problems when using two guns. I can never get them to work together perfectly, one calibrates perfectly and glides around the screen as expected but I can never get the 2nd gun to calibrate perfectly, it goes pretty much where ever it wants. Another problem is if I aim off screen to reload or lower my arm, when I bring my aim back upto the screen I have to wave the gun around like a mad man to get the gun registering again.
    

dkersten

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2014, 12:03:58 pm »
Yup, the hub is powered.  I got frustrated last night and pulled the back off the cabinet and moved the iPac to one of the PC ports.  This seems to have cleared up the glitchiness.. But while it was glitching, it deleted games from my gamelist, would randomly open and close programs, and even when I was got home last night from work it had managed to run task manager.. wtf.. Every time I came out of games not only would mala lose focus, but a right click on the start menu was up that wouldn't go away.  VERY annoying.  I moved the USB but then I had no buttons at all.  So I unplugged and replugged both usb and power, and nothing, so I rebooted.  Then the buttons worked, but then my P1 joystick (u360) registered left or right for down, which was weird.  So I reloaded an 8 way profile and suddenly everything worked again and no more glitches.

I figured out one MAJOR issue that I don't know how to get around.  When you configure in windows, you are configuring at that resolution.  When in Mame (on a widescreen), your monitor is at 16:9 but your game screen is at 4:3 and you have black bars on either side.  So mame is looking for the position that relates to 0,0 (top left), but when you are pointing at the top left of the game screen, it is NOT the top left of the monitor, so it is effectively telling mame that you are at maybe 35,0, or about two inches to the right of the top left corner.  If you move the aim to the far top left corner of the physical monitor, the crosshairs go to 0,0 on the game screen.  It is not scaling properly with the aspect ratio, since mame is not playing on the entire screen. 

I tried going to a 4:3 resolution, calibrating there, then go back to 16:9 and launch mame, thinking maybe the calibration will scale, but it doesn't because it isn't a resolution issue, it is a positional one.  The monitor is about 24 inches wide, but the way mame sees the gun it tries to use that entire 24 inches in the 18 inches of screen it displays.  But it can't because the screen isn't what is telling the gun where it is pointing, the IR bar is.  So the sides will NEVER be accurate unless I play all mame games stretched over the entire width of the monitor.

Or perhaps I can measure out the "screen" while in mame, then measure where the windows calibration puts the arrows, mark where the arrows would be if it was 4:3, and instead of pointing at the arrows during calibration, point at the marks.  that should narrow the field down and allow the corners to be accurate in a game that is 4:3.  Would be cool is the software could compensate though.

But I have a bigger problem, and that is I think my second gun is bad.  I haven't swapped the guns yet to see, but the gun just stops working a LOT in a game, and even in windows.  To get it to work again sometimes I just smack it on the side, sometimes I get really close to the IR bar and wave it around, and sometimes I point it all around the room and then it might start working and might not.  When it works, it sometimes works perfect, but then it will just go away.  In game, if I have the crosshairs turned on, the P2 crosshair will just disappear and even the trigger won't work, as if I disconnected it completely, although it is not disconnecting as far as I can tell (or it would switch the gun# around, etc).  It is almost as if it has some bad connection inside.

I will swap the guns today to see if it follows the P2 position, cable, or ID, or if I get the same result in the P1 setup. 

This will stop working even while P1 is still working perfectly.

Oh, and I had to do what I first suggested, I had to do offscreen trigger back to the same as onscreen for a button to get offscreen reloading to work in games that didn't have a button assigned.  I guess I could still try the mouse clicks with the mame.ini configured right, but for now this works because it registers the offscreen trigger pull and reloads in games like Area51 and Lethal Enforcers.  but in Carnevil I have to use the front button on the gun to reload since shooting offscreen is still just a regular trigger pull.

Ambient light IS an issue since I have 4 windows and a double door all around the cab, but that is really only a problem during the day.  And the P1 gun seems to work fine right now as long as I compensate for the screen size thing.  The P2 gun is unreliable at best.

I will post more as I figure it out.

Connorsdad

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2014, 03:20:24 pm »
I guarantee it won't be a faulty gun. I returned mine thinking the same thing, the new gun gave me the same problems. They just don't work perfectly when there is 2. I'm glad there's another person with the same issues, that's 3 I know of, hopefully Andy will chip in with some advice.
    

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2014, 05:50:03 pm »
I had some problems with calibration of the second gun on a build last year.  very hard to get the second gun to calibrate.  The only way I could do it was to remove one half of the shell and the smoked lens, calibrate while holding the guts in manually and then reassemble.  Hopefully the client I built the rig for will never have to do the same thing if it barfs up the calibration, which happened to me one time.  the symptom was that the gun's cursor was always stuck to the bottom or side of the screen.  still moved, just stuck to the edge.  2 aimtracks together are not ready for prime time imo.  Andy did help me via email and I really appreciated it.  It is still a better machine with two imperfect guns than with one perfect gun. 

dkersten

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2014, 06:21:38 pm »
Yup, most of the time when it glitches, it gets stuck on the left side of the screen.  Sometimes it just disappears altogether.

I swapped guns, and the one I had as P2 is working perfectly as P1.  I am going to move the IR bar to an internal USB slot next to ensure it has enough power and more reliable 5 volts.

Here is what I did for the controls to get them to work right in all games:
First, gotta do the offscreen_reload 1 in mame.ini.
Second, HAVE to have trigger set to mouse left.  ANY other button and this doesn't work.
Third, because of the offscreen_reload, any click becomes a trigger, including the buttons if set to right click, so you can't program them as button 2 for reload on games like carnevil or grenades or pedal on operation wolf and time crisis.  So the solution is to set the button on the gun to a joystick button.  This makes it work for all games both ways (as far as my testing has gone so far).  So trigger onscreen is mouse left, offscreen mouse right (not sure if the second matters), then buttons to joy1 or whatever.  Then program P1 button one to trigger (which will show up as Gun# B0) and button 2 to the front button on the gun (in my case joy5b1), do the same for P2 gun, and there you go.

I think I will go back into my cabinet and modify the mount so the IR bar sticks out a little further.. One thing I noticed is if I am too close (closer than 3.5-4 feet from the sensor), at "aiming" height, it misses some of the screen.  If I lower the gun to about chest height, it works FAR better.. I think maybe tilting the IR bar up higher would work.  I almost wish I had just mounted it in the marquee now that I know how much higher it could go, although then I would have had to be 5-7 feet back instead of 4-6. 

As for calibration, I got it close, but frankly each time I play I am a few inches to the left or right or even closer or further, and the calibration is too far off to use sights.  So I turn the crosshair off on any game that isn't close, do the in game calibration, and then just get used to how much I have to aim off center.  After a couple rounds it isn't a problem.  Many games work great with the crosshairs, they are dead on in many cases, so I leave them on and just use that instead of trying to aim with the gun.  Ideally I would like the calibration to be spot on, and I emailed Andy about the problem going from 16:9 to 4:3 and hope he has something to help.  I might try to fool it into thinking my screen is narrower and see if that really helps in mame games, but I also am thinking about adding a couple PC games to the mix, so I only want to have to do that as a last resort.. unless of course I could load different calibrations for different games from a command line.. but I am not holding my breath for that yet.

All in all, I am happier with it, but it is still a little disappointing. 

On a different topic, I love big buck hunter at the bars, and wanted something similar for home.  I was searching and found a video of someone who had like 10 versions of big buck on his hyperspin.  The only thing I could find in his documentation was that he was using the PC version, but that isn't what he had on his cabinet.  Unfortunately more digging only led me to find that there is a new version for windows 8 only, and one for wii.  The one I can find for PC is not even by the same company (play mechanix).. I have no intention of trying to get windows 8 on this computer let alone try to figure out how to run an app from a front end, but I really wish I could get this game for my setup.. And I wish I knew what that guy in the video was actually running on his arcade..

SpatzST

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2014, 07:09:33 pm »
When you are in the game you intend to play, hold down the trigger and recalibrate now in the correct resolution. I had the same issue, that seems to make it work correctly.

Also for reloading, drop your cross hair off the bottom of the screen and come back on the bottom. For some reason when going out the sides it freaks out. I found the bottom to work perfectly.


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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2014, 07:17:57 pm »
Keep on tinkering', Dave.  :cheers:

BTW, this also illustrates why I recommend dedicated PCI USB cards over hubs as well.
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eds1275

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2014, 10:54:31 pm »
I can play police trainer like a boss
I also have 2 guns working correctly no probs

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 05:33:43 pm »
I just fitted my two guns with recoil this weekend and while one gun works like it should, the other gun I can only use when I fire from the hip and there is a slight delay in the recoil. I calibrated them both the same way, one difference is, the one that is not working too well has an older style module in it. I have sent an email to Andy, just waiting for his response.
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dkersten

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 12:42:22 pm »
I am still unconvinced I will ever get these working as "aiming" guns.. just moving 3 or 4 inches in any direction can throw off corners by 2 or 3 inches on the screen, making aiming somewhat worthless.  But the further back you are, the better they work, assuming you don't have any interference..  I am going to try to calibrate "in game", but I think it will still look for the same calibration points, because even though mame is running at 4:3, the monitor is still at 1920x1080 and windows will see it as a full 16:9.  Andy didn't have anything particularly useful to say about this, so I will keep trying and if I make any headway I will post results with images.

I got House of the Dead 2 working in Demul, and once configured the aiming is the best I have seen so far, dead on accurate.  But then this runs in a full screen width, not letterboxed like mame games.  The problem is when I was tinkering, I configured both guns in the game setup, and Demul sees both as the same "mouse".  Unfortunately, it took the second gun's calibration as P1 and the first gun as P2, and somehow made that the default, so even though I recalibrate and save as default, every time I launch the game it goes back to that first calibration, and while the P2 cursor in test mode is dead on, the P1 is way off.  And in full screen mode, when I go to recalibrate, it windows the game and it is a huge pain in the butt to get it back to full screen (loses focus so I have to click out of calibration, then alt-tab to Demul again, then alt-enter to get back to full screen).  Once configured right it works great, but still not something anyone who doesn't know how to go through the complicated in game calibration process would be able to do, especially when it goes to window mode the first time you fire in the top left corner.  Plus no player 2 gun really sucks. 

Some games I can't do the mame crosshair as the game (even after in game calibration) is too far off from the crosshair, so I turn it off in those games and just get used to where the gun is shooting.. far from ideal but at least playable.  The ones where the mame crosshair is exactly where the game fires (like time crisis and operation wolf) are quite fun to play, and I just play "from the hip"..

Gun2 is still glitching out, but I swapped them around and still have the identical problems, so it definitely isn't the gun hardware.  I intend to swap some USB's around tonight so the guns are plugged into PC ports and not a hub.  After the ipac issues I am completely against using USB hubs in arcades.  I will use it for my pc keyboard, pc mouse, and wifi adapter, and then rewire the front usb ports to be in back and plug each arcade device into the computer directly.  I hope this makes a difference.

When the second gun starts glitching, I get similar problems to what I had with the ipac plugged into the USB hub.. when I get out of the game, mala will lose focus, there will be a right-clicked menu up on the screen I can't get rid of, and sometimes things just go wonky for no reason.  If I am not using that second gun, no problems at all.  Nothing like this was happening before I added the hub, so that is the first place I am looking.

I still have a long way to go before things are good enough for me, but at least I have gotten a few games to run well.  Ideally there needs to be a way to load profiles like you can in the u360 joysticks.. button configurations, different calibrations, and maybe even a way to check that ID1 is assigned to the same gun# in mame would make life a lot easier and even allow for guns to be unplugged when not in use.  I didn't set up my external USB ports to be always plugged in, but it looks like I won't have much choice.   

Now I just need to find a way to manage the cords.. would love to find a small spring loaded cord reel that I could install inside the case..

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2014, 03:51:12 pm »
I picked up two of these about a month and a half ago.  Setup was misery, and to say that they are accurate would be a lie.  They *do* work, or at least they did the last time, but they have been so flaky that I haven't really bothered with them since.  Looks like they'll be the "one day I'll get THAT working" issue on this setup, at least for now...

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2014, 04:33:11 pm »
I can play police trainer like a boss
I also have 2 guns working correctly no probs


police trainer is awesome, but I find there to be too much input lag to be quick and accurate since the aiming reticle drags

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2014, 05:30:05 pm »
Just an update, I haven't done much since my last post, but I DID try my calibration idea and it makes a big difference in some games.

I fired up area 51, then marked where the sides of the game are on the screen.  Then I went back to windows and ran the calibration for each gun, but instead of hitting the corners, I used those marks to determine where the corners of the game screen are and just guessed at where the mouse cursor would be if those marks were the edges of the screen (roughly 3/4" toward the center of the screen from the marks and about 3/4" down from the top) and fired.  The bottom calibration point I just hit the cursor.

This way when I was aiming at the far corner of the screen in windows, the mouse cursor was right on the marks I made.  I launched the game and turned on the crosshair and tried it out, and sure enough, not only was the crosshair pretty much dead on with the gun sites in all 4 corners of the game screen, but after a quick calibration in the service menu, the aim and the crosshairs were pretty much dead on for where the shot went.

Now, if I moved 5 inches back, it was off by roughly 2 inches, so I pretty much had to stand exactly where I was when I calibrated, but the aim stayed consistent and the game was better to play.

Unfortunately, launching into a game that took the full screen was far harder to play now, but I knew that would happen.

Next time I get a chance I am gonna put both guns on the internal USB's and see if gun 2 still glitches.

Keep in mind, MOST games work pretty good with the mame crosshairs and not bothering to aim.  It only takes a moment to get a feel for where the crosshair is going to be before you get used to it, and in those cases the games are plenty fun.  It's the games that have their own calibration that are taking inputs based on that rather than where windows sees the gun pointing that really suck because mame puts a crosshair up based on windows, not on what the game sees, so in some games if the aim is off, the crosshair is WAY off. 

Oh, and I tried to do the aimtrak calibration while in a game but you can't see the mouse, so the calibration is running but you don't know where your target is or if it registered when you fired.  So that was a bust.

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 05:43:49 pm »
The way I calibrate, open up a game that has visible crosshairs in the test menu. With those visible xhairs hold down fire and enable the calibration. The cursor will go to the top of the 4:3 screen now and you will be calibrated for all 4:3 games now.  I guess its the same result as what you did, but maybe better? I'm not sure.

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2014, 12:03:22 pm »
I would like to be able to help with the various issues which are mentioned here but the whole thread is rather confusing so I will just make some specific recommendations.

The first issue is Mame has a problem with gun IDs swapping over. This is usually overcome by using the "controller remap utility" which can be found on a search here.

The checks on installation mentioned in the instructions on our website Aimtrak pages must be done, which involves firstly making sure the gun does NOT track when the IR bar is unplugged (ie no extraneous IR light source) and also checking the "sensor view" to make sure the range is fully covering the screen area.

Some games exhibit slow light gun response owing to the implementation in the original game. Nothing can be done about this.

There is no interaction between one gun and the other gun as far as calibration goes. If the second gun wont calibrate properly and does not perform properly and the first does, there is a problem with it and we need to be notified.

If the picture is not fitting the screen the gun will not be accurate and needs to be calibrated against the actual picture size rather then the screen. The calibration steps show a cursor which needs to be aimed-at at each step but if the game only uses part of the screen this wont work properly. The gun assumes the game uses all of the Windows desktop screen. So it will need to be intentionally mis-calibrated to work with these games, and this is not a supported method of operation.

The calibration points indicated by the cursor are not actually at the screen corners, but slightly inward from the corners. This is to cater for CRTs with overscan. So, be aware that during calibration the gun needs to be pointed at the cursor location not the screen edge otherwise it will be innaccurate.

On various threads there has been mentions of using alternative LED light sources rather than the supplied bar. This will not work. It might work for the Wii but will not work for these guns as there are important differences which enable the guns to be used closer to the screen than the Wii controller.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:11:13 pm by AndyWarne »

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 02:10:55 pm »
I would like to be able to help with the various issues which are mentioned here but the whole thread is rather confusing so I will just make some specific recommendations.
Sorry for the confusion, I tend to write things out to help me figure them out, and I don't like going back to edit posts with updates because it makes subsequent posts confusing to anyone reading the thread from the beginning at a later date.  I will address each point individually in hopes of clearing things up and giving you an idea of where things stand at the moment.

The first issue is Mame has a problem with gun IDs swapping over. This is usually overcome by using the "controller remap utility" which can be found on a search here.
I will see if I can find it.  It would be nice to be able to put the guns away when not in use and be able to plug them in without having to remap the controls in mame each time.  As it sits now, it is a 50/50 chance that if one gun gets unplugged I will have to remap it, even if I plug them both in in order each time.  It would be nice if the ID of the gun forced it to always be GUN5 for ID1 and GUN6 for ID2.

The checks on installation mentioned in the instructions on our website Aimtrak pages must be done, which involves firstly making sure the gun does NOT track when the IR bar is unplugged (ie no extraneous IR light source) and also checking the "sensor view" to make sure the range is fully covering the screen area.
While I have IR interference when pointing at windows around the room, I checked this thoroughly and while pointing at the screen or even within about 10 inches around it I get zero interference even during the day.  At night, pretty much none anywhere around the room except when I point at a glass surface at an angle that is reflective of the IR bar.

Some games exhibit slow light gun response owing to the implementation in the original game. Nothing can be done about this.
Personally I have not experienced this.  All my issues have either been glitches or calibration issues.

There is no interaction between one gun and the other gun as far as calibration goes. If the second gun wont calibrate properly and does not perform properly and the first does, there is a problem with it and we need to be notified.
The guns don't interfere with each other, but when playing with both guns simultaneously, the P2 gun frequently stops working and exhibits odd behavior.  I have swapped the guns so that the P2 gun is in the P1 position and has an ID of 1, and it works like it should, but the one that was ID1 before is now exhibiting the same issues during a 2 player game.  It isn't the gun, it is something to do with having both guns playing simultaneously, and some others seem to be having the same issues.

Here is the thing though: I added a small powered usb hub when I added the guns.  At first the two guns, the IR bar, and the ipac ultimate were all plugged into this.  I had MAJOR issues.  It was like someone was randomly hitting keys, clicking mice, and moving the mouse around, even when I was out of the room!  Half my games on my gamelist got randomly deleted, icons on my desktop got moved around, and even the task manager in windows was launched while I was out of the room once.  Most annoyingly while this was happening was that when I exited a game, Mala would lose focus and there was a "right click" on the lower left corner of the desktop that brought up a menu that wouldn't go away until I minimized Mala and then clicked on the screen with the mouse.  This was solved when I moved the ipac ultimate OFF the hub and back onto an internal port on the PC.  Those problems, which were very frequent, went away instantly.  However, when using the second gun and experiencing the odd behavior, I ALSO lose focus on Mala when exiting, and have the right click menu stuck on the screen. 

My guess at this point is that he hub, although powered, is either not enough power for the guns to run simultaneously, or the hub itself has issues when running multiple HID devices simultaneously.  My next step will be to eliminate the hub, but that won't be easy because I have 9 devices and 8 ports in my PC.  I am planning to put my keyboard, mouse, and wifi adapter on the hub and all the game related controllers directly plugged to the PC.  If I still have problems with the second gun at that point, I will let you know because I will be out of options. 

There is no question though that the gun is NOT faulty at this point, the problem follows the ID of the gun or the USB port, NOT the gun itself.

If the picture is not fitting the screen the gun will not be accurate and needs to be calibrated against the actual picture size rather then the screen. The calibration steps show a cursor which needs to be aimed-at at each step but if the game only uses part of the screen this wont work properly. The gun assumes the game uses all of the Windows desktop screen. So it will need to be intentionally mis-calibrated to work with these games, and this is not a supported method of operation.
This is what I figured out, and my solution in the post above seemed to work great.  HOWEVER, this is not a great overall solution, just like having to manually program the U360's for each game wouldn't be a good solution.  I play fullscreen games too, and having a way to load different calibration profiles would be a good fix here, I can do that with my front end (or with autohotkey or whatever) if it existed.  Also having a 4:3 calibration routine would be cool as well, but marking where the sides of the game screen are and using that as a reference to calibrate does work.

The calibration points indicated by the cursor are not actually at the screen corners, but slightly inward from the corners. This is to cater for CRTs with overscan. So, be aware that during calibration the gun needs to be pointed at the cursor location not the screen edge otherwise it will be innaccurate.
I accounted for this when doing my makeshift calibration.  I aimed about 3/4" inward, and 3/4" down for each of the corners. 

On various threads there has been mentions of using alternative LED light sources rather than the supplied bar. This will not work. It might work for the Wii but will not work for these guns as there are important differences which enable the guns to be used closer to the screen than the Wii controller.

That is a bummer.  I feel like the biggest downside to this setup is how sensitive it is to distance from the screens.  I can get it calibrated pretty much dead on at about 5 feet from the IR bar, but moving back 3 inches sets it off by over an inch already.  Moving to each side has similar consequences.  I would think that having two or three IR sources at the corners of the screen with an algorithm that adjusts the calibration based on the distance the gun sees the corners from each other to allow for moving your initial position would be ideal, but at this price point it is probably a pipe dream.  The solution I have come up with is to only play games where the mame crosshair is exactly where the gun shoots and then just shoot from the hip rather than try to aim. 

Finally, I want to point out that these are the best guns available for the arcade games most of us play.  While I was disappointed in the beginning, as I worked through issues I began to understand the challenge of making a "universal" light gun, and I am far more satisfied with the product now that I have some of the challenges worked out.   I also commend you on your support, which is always prompt.  I would still love to see some improvements made in the product, such as being able to buy them with the recoil already installed, wired, and with a power supply included, and a way to select and load your calibration based on the game screen you will be playing on, but I also want my cake and to eat it too... :cheers:

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 03:02:37 pm »
At the end of the day - IR guns don't work very well for arcade games.  You're better off playing Wii games, which have been tweaked to play better with the technology.

If you insist making a cabinet and using IR guns, I think you're better off getting an EMS TopGun - that way you've only got buyer's remorse over $60.  If you put a wide angle lens ($1) on them, they work pretty well from about 5-6 feet away.  Unfortunately, most of us are shoving these things into 10x10 spare bedrooms and that much floorspace can be hard to find.


 


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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 04:36:01 pm »
If the picture is not fitting the screen the gun will not be accurate and needs to be calibrated against the actual picture size rather then the screen. The calibration steps show a cursor which needs to be aimed-at at each step but if the game only uses part of the screen this wont work properly. The gun assumes the game uses all of the Windows desktop screen. So it will need to be intentionally mis-calibrated to work with these games, and this is not a supported method of operation.

Andy, I appreciate you stepping into the thread to answer questions with detail!

I've got a 16:9 monitor, but of course the Mame games are displaying in 4:3 and centered, so there are black bars on both sides that the game doesn't end up using.  Should I be calibrating against the picture size in that case?

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 07:12:10 pm »
Diet, yes, that is one of the things I have been trying to get right here.  What worked for me was launching a game that is 4:3, then using little pieces of tape to mark the top left and right edges of the game screen, then went back to windows and ran the calibration.  The cursor goes to the top left but is about an inch short of the corner.  So I aimed about 3/4 inch down and toward the center of my left mark and pulled the trigger.  Then the cursor goes to the top right and I did the same with the top right mark.  Then it goes to the bottom and I just aimed at the cursor down there and finished the calibration.  I then removed the marks and launched a game, did the in-game calibration in the service menu, and the aim was nearly dead on all the way to the corners.  However, moving closer or further away by even a few inches changed the aim just enough to make a difference. 

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2014, 10:53:19 am »
There are definitely problems when using two guns simultaneously, I even returned one of mine thinking it was faulty but it wasn't. I have the guns plugged into separate usb headers on the main board so a hub isn't the problem in my situation. As long as I don't unplug the guns they will keep their ids in mame/model 2/model 3 etc. The problem with the controller remap utility is that it only works with mame.

I tried swapping the ids and re calibrating to test for a faulty gun, the gun that worked fine was now all over the place and vice versa.
    

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2014, 06:09:39 pm »
@dkersten
Uhm, I can't imagine why you'd have such problems like your task manager opening while you aren't touching the computer... I would definitely not assume that issue is a result of your USB hub and lightguns. I would suggest you get that checked out. Virus scan wouldn't hurt.

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2014, 09:09:10 pm »
Soon as I moved my ipac off the hub it went away.. I am assuming that since it is a keyboard emulator and all keys required to do things like open task manager are assigned to buttons on mine, that if it was glitching due to a lack of power, and random keypresses were happening, then it could be doing that.  This started exactly when I added the hub and moved the ipac there, and ended completely when I moved it back to a direct PC port.  It was creepy when it was happening, and frustrating as hell - I would move the joystick in Mala and everything would go wonky.  I would right click to get to the configuration, and it would close on me as if I had left clicked off the window.  And games would suddenly launch, get removed from the list, or get moved to other game lists.  It was so random though that I knew it wasn't any kind of malicious software, and not only is this a clean install, but I haven't done anything on it since the install to compromise the system.

For the most part, everything is working exactly as it had before, and the only real issue I still have is the second gun glitching out. 


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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2014, 12:40:14 am »
oh, I suppose that makes sense then. 

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2014, 09:52:57 am »
If the picture is not fitting the screen the gun will not be accurate and needs to be calibrated against the actual picture size rather then the screen. The calibration steps show a cursor which needs to be aimed-at at each step but if the game only uses part of the screen this wont work properly. The gun assumes the game uses all of the Windows desktop screen. So it will need to be intentionally mis-calibrated to work with these games, and this is not a supported method of operation.

Andy, I appreciate you stepping into the thread to answer questions with detail!

I've got a 16:9 monitor, but of course the Mame games are displaying in 4:3 and centered, so there are black bars on both sides that the game doesn't end up using.  Should I be calibrating against the picture size in that case?

It depends on what is introducing the borders. If its Mame then you can still calibrate over the whole screen size.

On thing worth mentioning. If you calibrate then move back or to the side while still aiming the gun at the screen, the correction for the move will not be applied. This is because this type of correction is only applied when the gun is aimed off the screen, then back on. I did this to avoid the cursor jumping around when updating the correction. This was not thought to be a drawback in gameplay.

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2014, 09:57:21 am »
At the end of the day - IR guns don't work very well for arcade games.  You're better off playing Wii games, which have been tweaked to play better with the technology.

If you insist making a cabinet and using IR guns, I think you're better off getting an EMS TopGun - that way you've only got buyer's remorse over $60.  If you put a wide angle lens ($1) on them, they work pretty well from about 5-6 feet away.  Unfortunately, most of us are shoving these things into 10x10 spare bedrooms and that much floorspace can be hard to find.

The Topgun is a low-resolution Guncon device which uses a driver to convert the Guncon protocol to Windows. I can quite honestly state that the Aimtrak blows away the Guncon in terms of performance.
You can compare this because the Aimtrak can be switched to Guncon mode and will then work on a PS/2 and also will work on a PC using the Topgun driver. Its an interesting performance comparison!

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, not happy yet.
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2014, 10:03:27 am »

 I would think that having two or three IR sources at the corners of the screen with an algorithm that adjusts the calibration based on the distance the gun sees the corners from each other to allow for moving your initial position would be ideal, but at this price point it is probably a pipe dream. 

Possible but the minimum screen distance would be massively increased if the gun needs to see all of the points at all times. It would also need to know which point is which so each light point would need to be switched on and off.
The Sega system did this. It was never a very accurate and reliable system.

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Re: aimtrak guns installed, nearly satisfied with the results.
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2014, 03:42:56 pm »

 I would think that having two or three IR sources at the corners of the screen with an algorithm that adjusts the calibration based on the distance the gun sees the corners from each other to allow for moving your initial position would be ideal, but at this price point it is probably a pipe dream. 

Possible but the minimum screen distance would be massively increased if the gun needs to see all of the points at all times. It would also need to know which point is which so each light point would need to be switched on and off.
The Sega system did this. It was never a very accurate and reliable system.

 Or you could put a Wide angle lens in there, and solve both all of that...