Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences

[happyfunball]

do you own many leather bound books as well, shelved in rich mahogany shelves?

[Malenko]

Repeatedly calling me, or anyone else autistic or bi-polar (or any other mental condition) as insult is very immature. I am quite sure that many members here have known or know of someone with those conditions or similar and making light of them in that manner is quite insensitive. I don't set the bar very high for you, but even I expected better than that.


I need to stay a little on topic, so there's this part:
Ive ordered 2 of them from Randy to mess around with, and I'll have my nephews do a blind test on multiple games. I sort of do the same thing with a cherry, but I rely on the tension of the spring and not the tension of the top part of the leaf, where I "rest" the striker part of the barrel right on top of the cherry.  While I do have a new MAME set up in process, even if it was complete, I'd still prefer they play the actual JAMMA PCBs. I love emulation but its just not quite the same thing.

EDIT: self imposed clean up duty.

[jimmer]

You can hear that he isn't bottoming out the fire button.

That would be much much harder with only 2.3mm of travel.

[deadmoney5]

You can't make this stuff up

[lamprey]

And that's just from the posts that show up in your recent post history on your profile page, 11 out of 40 posts(27.5%). Tell me again how I'm the one spewing vitriol? Full disclosure, while *most* of that was directed at me, not all of it was.

All X2 does is try to cram as much conversational terrorism into his posts as possible. It's best to just ignore him or he'll be tempted to clutter the forums with more of his nonsense. 

[RandyT]

You can hear that he isn't bottoming out the fire button.

That would be much much harder with only 2.3mm of travel.

Really, it's not.  The beauty of a good leaf switch setup is the ability to adjust them for a particular playing style.  If you notice, this individual doesn't play at all the way X2 insists one must.  His fingers aren't anywhere near the fire button until he wants to actually fire.  This is because the Defender buttons are very soft, and any resting on the button would result in a closed contact.  There's more finger flapping than "floating" going on in this clip, and it doesn't seem to hinder his play.  For an individual who plays like this, I would adjust the CLASSX button to be firm, with a very small contact gap.  It wouldn't feel exactly the same to this individual, but he would likely quickly adapt and realize that the length of motion he normally found necessary is no longer required, possibly resulting in less fatigue while playing.

The other thing which many don't immediately realize is that games which allow for rapid fire, more often than not, have a software limitation for fire frequency.  A great example of this is Asteroids.  No matter how fast you can cycle the button, once you are able to achieve a certain frequency, you will end up with only four, evenly spaced shots on the screen.  With a standard micro, this is difficult to achieve, but with a CLASSX leaf button, it's no problem at all.

Then there is the fact that there are different "old school" leaf buttons and switches out there.  The Defender machine used a different setup than most of the newer machines with the switch holders.  Depending on the build of a particular panel, the feel of the switch could, and did, vary considerably.  Players needed to adapt to a particular machine/game.  This is no different than adapting to a different leaf button, such as the CLASSX, except that you would have the benefit of being able to adjust the switch/button to your specific ideal, and it would remain a constant throughout all games you wish to play on your panel.

[Xiaou2]

Really, it's not.  The beauty of a good leaf switch setup is the ability to adjust them for a particular playing style.  If you notice, this individual doesn't play at all the way X2 insists one must.  His fingers aren't anywhere near the fire button until he wants to actually fire.

 Half Truth.  I guess your eyes are not what they used to be Randy...

 He does have an unusual playing style...  He often gets ready to tap in the air, when there is nothing going on.. then uses an accelerated snap, to get the precision timing he wants.   In other times.. hes holding the button down... and then letting it up slightly and floating the button (Floating = Rapidfire vibration firing method).   Yet other times, hes going right into floating mode.

 Nothing saying you cant play a certain way... but that does not mean that you do not have weaknesses in doing so.   Anytime your finger is too far from the button, its far more possible you wont get to the punch in time.. when needed.

 And if you dont have the float ability, and the spring tension and depth needed...  then it only makes it more difficult.

This is because the Defender buttons are very soft, and any resting on the button would result in a closed contact.  There's more finger flapping than "floating" going on in this clip, and it doesn't seem to hinder his play.

 I seriously doubt this (light finger pressure = fire)... and while my memory is a little fuzzy at times, Im pretty much dead certain Ive never experienced a leaf that was so sensitive that I couldnt rest upon it without fire.  That just would not make much sense.

 And yes, it Does hinged his play.  How many times did we see him die in that short clip?

 Still, you are correct, in that he seems to flap more than float.  Though, he does do it all.

The other thing which many don't immediately realize is that games which allow for rapid fire, more often than not, have a software limitation for fire frequency.  A great example of this is Asteroids.  No matter how fast you can cycle the button, once you are able to achieve a certain frequency, you will end up with only four, evenly spaced shots on the screen.  With a standard micro, this is difficult to achieve, but with a CLASSX leaf button, it's no problem at all.

 This is a partially true as well... but it doesnt tell the whole story.

 In asterioids deluxe... your limit I believe is actually 5 shots on screen... However, if you hit something close to you, you are recharged immediately.  And when you are talking 4 already out there.. and then you have an asteroid pop up right next to you.. you can litterally fire and recharge in a fraction of a second.   You can unload a stream of nearly never-ending bullets at nearby targets.  So long as they are hit.. you are recharged.  So while it may seem to be limited.. its not quite as limiting as you may be lead to believe.

 

Players needed to adapt to a particular machine/game.  This is no different than adapting to a different leaf button, such as the CLASSX, except that you would have the benefit of being able to adjust the switch/button to your specific ideal, and it would remain a constant throughout all games you wish to play on your panel.

Or, Players can use the controls that the game plays with, so that there is no need to adapt to a completely different feel, control, and fatigue level.

[pbj]

I'll lay $5 on none of you being able to tell the difference in a setup where you can't hear microswitch clicks.

 

[RandyT]

I seriously doubt this (light finger pressure = fire)... and while my memory is a little fuzzy at times, Im pretty much dead certain Ive never experienced a leaf that was so sensitive that I couldnt rest upon it without fire.  That just would not make much sense.

 And yes, it Does hinged his play.  How many times did we see him die in that short clip?

I don't need to rely on memory, fuzzy or not.  I have an original Defender panel sitting here next to my chair, with all original buttons and leafs.  You cannot rest your finger on them with any weight at all, without the contacts closing.  There's a reason he is playing the way he is, and that is it.

Of course, I'm happy to be proven wrong.  Is  there a clip somewhere of you also breaking the million mark on Defender using only your specific play style? (link please)

In asterioids deluxe... your limit I believe is actually 5 shots on screen... However, if you hit something close to you, you are recharged immediately.  And when you are talking 4 already out there.. and then you have an asteroid pop up right next to you.. you can litterally fire and recharge in a fraction of a second.   You can unload a stream of nearly never-ending bullets at nearby targets.  So long as they are hit.. you are recharged.  So while it may seem to be limited.. its not quite as limiting as you may be lead to believe.

Doesn't change what I wrote.  If you can achieve the maximum frequency the game allows, then all is good.  The only reason it seems faster is because you can keep firing beyond the normal 4 (classic Asteroids) shot limit when one strikes a target.  That doesn't mean that the firing frequency limitation is negated.  It's not unusual at all for a player to get taken out by going head on into an asteroid, attempting to fire their way through, regardless of how fast they are cycling the switch.

Or, Players can use the controls that the game plays with, so that there is no need to adapt to a completely different feel, control, and fatigue level.

Or, you can read what I wrote and give honest consideration to the fact that no arcade games from different manufacturers are exactly alike in feel, control and supposed "fatigue level".    Even the same games from the same manufacturer will vary in feel, depending on age and use.  Good arcade players have the ability to adapt, based on what they are presented with at a particular location.  They really have no other choice.

[pbj]

No pic = no Defender panel

[RandyT]

No pic = no Defender panel

I don't have one at the moment.  But you can see the machine it comes from in my "Active Marquee" thread.

[Xiaou2]

And that's just from the posts that show up in your recent post history on your profile page, 11 out of 40 posts(27.5%). Tell me again how I'm the one spewing vitriol? Full disclosure, while *most* of that was directed at me, not all of it was.

 Nice to take things out of context.. considering you tend to be the one to throw the first few stones..
Pretty much the same on every one of the posts you chose to frame me on.   I dont attack those without provocation.  Thats a waste of time and energy.   But if you want to step on my tail..  well what do you expect?   You get what you give.

To actually answer your post, I don't stalk, I actually was doing my best to avoid you, never posting in any thread that you already posted in. But you were posting in many threads I wanted to and I missed out on a bunch a threads I wanted to be a part of.  You however, went into my restore thread, about a game you said you had no interest in, and posted something (that to me didn't make any sense). So who is stalking who? http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139619.msg1445544.html#msg1445544

 WTH?!   So what you are saying... is that as long as I dont appear in a thread, you wont feel compelled to attack me for no good reason?!
You need someone with sanity, to talk some sanity into you.

 I posted in your thread, not to attack.  I dont hold grudges like you do.   I came to see the restore.  Gave my opinions of what I thought would be cool.. and carried on.    I didnt say one negative thing.   Saying I wasnt a huge fan of those types of games, isnt really Negative.  Its an opinion.  And the rest was positive criticism.. not bashing mockery & or non-productive negativity for negativity sake  (as many of your posts seem to be... ).

Repeatedly calling me, or anyone else autistic or bi-polar (or any other mental condition) as insult is very immature. I am quite sure that many members here haveknow or know of someone with those conditions or similar and making light of them in that manner is quite insensitive. I don't set the bar very high for you, but even I expected better than that from you.

 How could I make light of something that I have a small trait of?   You see, this is the problem, you come and attack... and you have no sound reason for doing so.   So what IS the reason someone would go from 0 to 100,000 in hate, anger, bitterness...etc?   Its gotta be a mental condition.  Which is one reason why I give you far more slack than you deserve.   But maybe if you were better Aware of what kinds of things you are thinking... that were way off-base..   and how your reactions were way "over the top",  you might be more thoughtful before you wasted your time thinking up a bunch of stuff in your head.. and blowing it up at every post I, and others whom rub you funny..  make.

 Yes, your reactions, thoughts and feelings are way over the top.   Calm down.  Chill Out.

You also seemed to miss several things I was trying to convey, I was probably being too subtle. About knowing the definition of ham-fisted, what I meant was you didn't bother to look up the definition before responding.

 Thought I knew the meaning.  But however, as I SAID BEFORE...  I dont have to look up the meaning of every word.   Thats not a crime punishable by 200,000 lashes with a wet nap.   The fact that you FEEL and THINK that people SHOULD dive into a research frenzy before posting... shows how rigid and obtuse you are.   Much like those who get all offended when someone spells something wrong.  Its a waste of time and energy trying to Force the world to be like YOU think it should be.  Its also wrong to think and feel this way.

 Firstly, you are FAR from what anyone would call Perfect.  And since you cant claim perfection... then you shouldnt try to force your IDEA of what you think Perfection is on others.   Nor should you force or judge others on what you think a certain "Standard" to be upheld is.
Spelling isnt a Moral conundrum!   Nor is typing some slightly off data.   Its not some crime against humanity.  Its not Rape of the Internet.  Its not even worth a single thought, let alone the Rant that you bellow.

Finger striking was just really highlighting poor sentence structure

 Heh, exactly my point.  If you cant go on a forum without going insane from grammar and sentence structure... then you really have issues.  I mean Serious issues.   You really should look into Meditation.  Work on controlling your minds compulsive obsession of trivial and downright Dumb things.. well beyond your Nazi-Esc  control.

and just a tiny bit troll baiting you into posting about your magic finger striking.

 Yup, because you cant Troll enough.  Every post you make is pretty much a Troll.

 Where as what Ive posted, were facts and opinions about Leafs.   Such things are Constructive, not Destructive... like trolling posts you seem to favor.

 Ahh...  but you probably think Im trolling You right?   Trolling you with my poor grammer, spelling, opinions, and long descriptions, right?!  Sorry, I have very little time to waste on something so ridiculous.   I am who I am.  Im more artistic, than cerebral... and my memory is Horrible.  We all have our strengths and weaknesses.  But I, unlike you, do not hold such things against others.   

 Then again... I think about such funny things that Ive heard from some of the Cerebrals around here... such as "Anyone can Program".  Sorry, its not true.   The idea that Anyone can do what you do...  is the kind of thinking that comes from someone out of touch with reality.  You simply Dont know what its like to be limited upstairs.  Its sort of like having one leg... and being told that you should be able to walk just like anyone else (without a prosthetic).

As for you building multiple panels, my point was you don't post any projects of anything you've done, which isn't helping the community at all.

 So what your saying... is that because I dont post... I should be stoned, banned, and abused?   Or that I OWE you and everyone else something?

 Firstly, I post helpful comments and suggestions almost daily...  and have been thanked for them.   Ive even helped someone with some artwork designs.   I guess that stuff doesnt count as Helping ehh?

I know you were on the crapMAME site and you're still upset about. Perhaps yield your own advice and get over it? Sometimes you do need to take a step back and laugh at yourself. There is no harm in that.  I found a picture of my first MAME cabinet, and its terrible. I'll scan it when I get home.

 I have no embarrassments about my creations.   I simply have changed my ideas on what I would do.. based on things like the "Floating Leaf"  discovery.     If I had an issue with my own stuff, I wouldnt have posted it.  It only got taken down, when I didnt want to pay the raised host fees at homestead.   And of course, it was outdated to what I was planning..    And then I got sick...

 Believe it or not, I have a sense of humor.   But what was posted was an attack, not humor.   Not just to me, but to others as well.
Its downright negative, and a reason why I have chosen not to share much anymore of what I do... and why Others have also chosen the same.

 I dont care if you think its bad or not.  Its not up to you to decide, nor to judge me.  I dont Owe you a single penny.   And my site, which was up for years to inspire others... never earned me one penny either.   In fact, I payed every year to keep it up... just for the sake of inspiration and sharing... despite my low level income.

I need to stay a little on topic, so there's this part:
I think there is a little validity in your claim to be able to "half press" a leaf, shorten the travel and be able to rapid fire like that. However I also believe I'll be able to do the same thing with the true-leafs.

 You cant have it both ways.  Either it is... or it isnt.   Less travel = Less ability to control that effect... without slamming into the bottom of the button.   If you tighten the spring... you just make it harder to push... and more distance to contact..  but you still will end up with less control and less ability to control the reaction.

 Can you make them float?  Probably.  But not as smooth and effortlessly as a the older leaf buttons.   Not with as much precision, control, and comfort.    When there is a loss.. it has to effect something.  Its basic logic... and its basic physics.

 These are not attacks.  This is statements of facts of physics and opinions / experiences with arcade controls..  and why I disagree that these new leaf buttons are an optimal replacement for classic games.

 However, as said... for a fighter... these leaf buttons might actually be decent.  That is... if you can tune them to not go off with the pressure of a ladybug landing on them...

Ive ordered 2 of them from Randy to mess around with, and I'll have my nephews do a blind test on multiple games. I sort of do the same thing with a cherry, but I rely on the tension of the spring and not the tension of the top part of the leaf, where I "rest" the striker part of the barrel right on top of the cherry.  While I do have a new MAME set up in process, even if it was complete, I'd still prefer they play the actual JAMMA PCBs. I love emulation but its just not quite the same thing.

 Well, as said, the results really pop out when you are playing something like a non-stop shooter, like Haleys comet.   Also, they may have to be taught how to float the button... rather than mash it down to full travel each time.   Otherwise, they really wont know what difference there is.  Especially with real leafs... where they will actually feel much worse, if you mash them down fully every time... rather than float them.

 Floating isnt that difficult to do with a real arcade leaf..   however, on a limited travel leaf.. Id say it would take a lot more effort and focus to keep that motion exacting.

 I can understand about the PCB thing, which is why I have a few cabs still (though sadly, may be losing due to finances).   
Mame as far as arcade interfacing is still quirky and un-polished..    and original cabs have all the right controls, sound acoustics, artwork, and hopefully, the correct tube-arcade arcade monitor.    Some embellishments can be tasty.. but its far from a generic multicab.
Then again... not everyone has the space or money..  maybe even me 

 In the great lines of the Classic movie  "Stripes"   (I wish you would)   "Lighten up Francis"

[Malenko]

As for the leafs, who said they are the end all be all of leaf buttons? All I've read seems to imply they are a very serviceable substitute for the old leafs. The old leafs are only so finite, and their numbers are only decreasing. Whats the harm in having a button available that can replace it? I have 2 of the true leaf pros, and I put em in the bad dudes cab and man if the new buttons weren't so shiny I would have a heck of a time telling the difference between the 2 (played bad dudes and BreakThru) . I personally think that's a great thing to have. A new button that isn't in very limited supply that a layman can use to replace his leafs and not be able to tell the difference.  Full disclosure again, I adjusted the spacing between the legs to approximate the distance on the existing leafs.

To break it down differently, lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are 100% right about leafs. Now, take the number of people who will use a leaf exactly the way you think they should be used. Now compare that number against less precise and more common players who don't worry about maximum bullets or fire rate, don't know about floating or bouncing buttons. Which do you think is greater? Do you think the more casual player would be detrimentally impacted by using a true-leaf over and old school leaf? Personally I think they would be fine using a true-leaf , especially if they cant find any old skool leafs.

EDIT: self imposed clean up duty.

[ChanceKJ]

"LADIES! LADIES! ...You're BOTH pretty."

[saint]

Someone please take a deep breath before I am forced to ban people. No, not for your opinions.

 

[MTPR]

I've been using LeafSwitch Champs for a while ( http://www.arcadeshop.de/ILSA-Buttons-Leafswitch-Champ_566.html ) but was considering switching to GoldLeaf - how do they compare? 

[Malenko]

I've been using LeafSwitch Champs for a while ( http://www.arcadeshop.de/ILSA-Buttons-Leafswitch-Champ_566.html ) but was considering switching to GoldLeaf - how do they compare?

Its really going to boil down to preference. I strongly suggest you buy a single GoldLeaf and see how YOU like it.  Then you can write up a review 

[MTPR]

Thats sound advice, I think I'll do that  

[MTPR]

I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.

[Malenko]

I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.

I might have to order one up and see if I prefer it to the true leaf pro from GGG (which is my current favorite leaf replacement)

[RandyT]

I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.

I'm sure it's a fine button, but it's not a true leaf switch design (regardless of what the advertising might indicate).  No adjustability whatsoever, and a contact size that's a tiny fraction of that of true leaf switches.  They are essentially a Japanese style button, with a concave plunger.  The design of this type of switch is quiet, and eliminates the hysteresis of a snap switch , but doesn't offer the sought after function of an actual leaf switch for some playing styles.  True leaf switches can also last for decades of heavy use, needing only an occasional contact cleaning, so if longevity, adjustability, and the inherent controllable "bounce" function are of importance to you, there's no substitute for the real thing.

[MTPR]

Feels good to me!  Highly recommended!

[Scorpie]

Are these leaf switches compatible with Andy`s Ultralux buttons? Any specifics one should look for to see if they are compatible ?

[MTPR]

The Leafswitch champs from arcadeshop.de work with ultralux buttons.  They feel better with something like happ classic buttons though in my opinion.

[lamprey]

Are these leaf switches compatible with Andy`s Ultralux buttons? Any specifics one should look for to see if they are compatible ?

What do you mean by compatible?

The connectors (tags?) are of a different size, so maybe not 100% compatible in that respect.

[SpatzST]

i don't know what you guys are bickering about, but I think the answer to both of you is.... if you want the button to feel exactly like the original, buy the original cabinet. If you want something that will work like the original and happily let you play any game, buy a current generation leaf-switch.  Personally, I have the GGG true-leafs, and not that I am any type of arcade expert or was ever an "arcade junkie", but it works perfectly... it triggers every time i need it to, and I never get fatigue regardless of the game I am playing.

so I think the simple answer, once again is, if you want it to feel truly original, get the original, because no one button is going to cover all your bases.

[leapinlew]

RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

[dkersten]

Hmm, I missed the show because I had no interest in leaf switches.. and the funny thing is that now that I read it, I am thinking about trying some out on my next build.. lol. 

While the following comparison is not specific to leaf switches, I think it fits:  I play a lot of Big Buck HD when out with friends.  After a while, pumping that shotgun gets tiring.  The guys who play competitively will figure out where the switch is and hold the pump handle just in front of it and only move a fraction of an inch to reload.  When I think about a leaf switch that you can dial in for minimal throw and get used to using a lighter touch with, I think about those people who play Big Buck HD competitively.  There is no question that if I could find that sweet spot and train myself to use it reliably, I could improve my game quite a but.  I imagine that in some arcade games this would make a difference. 

But at the same time, as soon as you start making your cabinet universal so it can play a wide range of games, all that benefit goes right out the window.  Some games you want to rest your hands on the buttons, others you don't get near it until you are ready to use it.  So unless you have a dedicated cab, just finding something that is intermediate to everything you play would probably be the best choice, and then it really comes down to reliability and preference for how it feels.

Regarding X2:  I am not trying to stir the pot here but after this and a couple other threads, I have come to the conclusion that X2 is that guy at the car shows who has a nicely restored car and many years experience in restoring cars, but nobody likes to talk to him because HIS way of restoring it is the ONLY way, and anyone who didn't follow his ideals of what the perfect classic car is, is wrong.  Plus while he has a thirst for knowledge and a decent memory, once he latches on to an idea it is set in concrete.  It might make him good at the hobby, but not particularly good at giving advice in the hobby.

And the following is directed straight at X2: Just because you watched "Rain Man" doesn't mean that every autistic person has some special ability to remember things.  Please stop saying "Autistic photographic memory".  Yes, I am offended - my nephew is autistic, my girlfriends son was autistic and died at 18 years old from a seizure, and I dated another woman for a few months whose 7 year old son was autistic.  None of them had the ability to remember everything they see, count cards at a casino, or be able to do complex math without a calculator.  Don't base your "knowledge" of anything on the few pieces of media you have come across in your life. 

As usual, just because something doesn't work FOR YOU, doesn't mean it sucks or is inferior.  You have a PREFERENCE, and that is fine.  You have an OPINION, and that is fine too.  But so do others, and from what I have seen here, most of them don't share yours.  If you keep telling people they are wrong when discussing matters of opinion, regardless of how many facts and how much information you based your opinion on, you are going to get "attacked", so quit being so surprised when it happens.

Why can't you just say "IMHO, I prefer the original leafs from games like 'XXXXXXX', and the reproductions, while an improvement in reliability from the original leafs of 40 years ago, just don't perform the same way."  BOOM, you stated your opinion, gave information that was useful to someone who is interested, and didn't offend anyone because you are just stating your opinion based on some substantial experience.  You're welcome. 

[Xiaou2]

RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

[leapinlew]

RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

[Malenko]

when you quote him, I can see his text. 


Just accept that you are rong rew , its the only way! 

[dkersten]

You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

Wait, you claim that you use a light touch where you hover over the switch and barely press it, so why would it matter to you if it bottomed out?

Sounds like you are just looking for a reason to be able to say something is inferior.  Also seems to be a common thread with you. 

I have a bit of advice for you:  Learn how to compromise and be able to choose the best option when there isn't a perfect option, because in life there is almost never something "perfect" for you.  Everything in life is about compromise, and the person who spends their entire life waiting for everything to be exactly what they want is going to die unhappy and unsatisfied.

[Xiaou2]

RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

 Your still missing the Boat.


 Think about this, as if it were your PC Keyboard... and you were at work, trying to type up some long emails and important documents.    If the keys / buttons are too sensitive..  you run a risk of accidental contact.
More that likely, you will probably make about 50 times as many mistakes.. in a mere 3 minute period of typing.   You would want to strangle the person who had the idea to create something like that... because its way too straining to maintain a  "Butterfly's touch"  over a set of keys / buttons  for long periods of time.   This kind of strain isnt good for you... and it can cause you to develop very stiff / tight muscle & tissue strands, forming injuries like "Carpel Tunnel".  It could also cause extreme violence in the workplace.  lol

 So, you WANT an area of decent tension and enough travel distance away from the contact zone, that allows you to REST your fingers on the buttons with almost or completely "Zero"  need to support them with your muscles.

 Once you decide it.. You then press into the button deep enough to get to the contact zone area.  Once there, you can easily stay in that zone, vibrating the contacts open & closed, with distances as fine as a thin piece of paper.    It takes no real strength, and barely any effort.   The energy is always rebounded like a spring or bungee cord..   so its easy to keep its momentum forces in action.  Similar to a professionals High-Return  Trampolines.


 After the Contact area... the spring forces start to amplify..  and that helps further keep you from bottoming out.   

 If the springs were too light.. you would always bottom out. 
 If the springs were Average, but the space between leaf and the bottom-stopper .. was much more shallow...  it wouldnt have enough distance for collecting all of that force... before you hit the endpoint.
 If the springs were Stronger, it would take too much force to operate repeatedly.  In addition, it would slow things down a Lot.

 If you make it so that the Top of the Leaf is spread very far from the bottom leaf...  you are gaining in more top resistance, more so that the typical spring thats used in the button assembly...  but also,
you can actually half the leafsprings lifespan easily... as bending springs too far, causes quicker metal fatigue.    It also means that the top spring will travel way too far on each press.. and further speed its degradation... that is... if there wasnt a nice bottom to crash into...    And then were are back to square 1.

 You have to realize... that the precise manor of the designed angles, spacing, components, and materials physical qualities..  are what create the magic here.   Any methods that do not use the same principles of operation, will never work well, or as well, for the desired effect.


 Even if you cant fully wrap your brain around the physics of this button / spring stuff..  Im sure you can easily understand a more broader and simplified explanation...

    Think of how many tools there are to cut wood.   Each of these tools has a specific feel, use, advantage, disadvantage... etc.   You can use a hand saw..  but thats going to be a real pain compared to a Jigsaw.  Lots more effort, a lot less work done in the same time.   The Jigsaw totally stinks for precision, and the tablesaw or even a bandsaw.. blows it out of the water... and its far more uncomfortable.. with its constant vibrations.   There are those thin blade Coping saws, which can cut fine details in tight spaces, that a handsaw just couldnt achieve.

 While many machines/tools..etc..   look similar..  with experience, we often find out that these supposedly small differences,  are actually quite huge and important...  and why one thing will feel and function great.. where as others.. do not do so well in the tasks required / desired.


 

 Shock Force - Repeated Info


 If you bottom out a button... its like jumping on a diving board thats hovering a few inches over a concrete block.   Upon jumping on it... it smashes into the block.. and the shock force travels right into your skeletal system... as well as the tissues.   It doesnt feel that good... especially when done for a long time periods under heavy stress.   It also slows down the speed potentials of repeated action... due to a lot of the momentum being lost on an abrupt impact.   

 Do not bother with the newton ball examples, as your gushy digits are not anywhere near as conductive, nor are they devoid of painful sensations and internal degradations.    Your very skin absorbs a lot of the forces..  but it still takes its toll on you over the course of time.

 In a normal classic leaf assembly, that energy is stored in the spring, and is re-used over and over again, with minimal loss. 


 With a Fighting game, or a game thats not very  "Rapidfire /  Intense"  , you dont need to worry about this...  and in these cases, its most often better to have that strong resistance, and that solid hard snap and crashing thunk..  to make sure that the actions were accurate and deliberate...  rather than accidental.

 However, with Rapidfire games, such as Halleys Comet...  it would kill you to try to use a microswitch for any length of time.   You will fatigue way too easily and quickly... and your fire rate wont be a 10th of what you could get with a real leaf button.

 This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

  - Knowing that you dont have to use the full travel of the button.  The leaf will depress about a mm or two..  and will activate somewhere in the upper-middle point.  The rest of the travel is made to absorb and rebound the forces, without any collision shock forces  (unless your hitting the buttons like sledge hammers).

 - Knowing how to "Float"  the button.   By first getting to the contact point.. and then lightly vibrating your fingers.. you can cause the contacts to open and close in distances at small as thin sheet of paper.  This makes for really fast repeated rapidfire action...  but requires about 85% less energy to do.   Since there is plenty of space after the contacts touch... you are easily able to maintain the action without accidentally bottoming out to an impact.

 

[leapinlew]

RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

 Your

 

That's as far as I got with your post and it's a typo.

[Slippyblade]

This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

[leapinlew]

This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

At this point, I'm not sure what he's even arguing about. He self admittedly says he hasn't given the GGG button a fair chance but then he's ranting about leafs to me and I already know all about them. Is he arguing that the replacement leafs will never be as good or is he saying they'll never be the same? Either way he's wrong and it's mostly because he didn't even try the button other than put it in a control panel, press it a few times and decide it wasn't good enough.

[Xiaou2]

 De-Programmer  /On
 WakeUp Mode    /On

You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

Wait, you claim that you use a light touch where you hover over the switch and barely press it, so why would it matter to you if it bottomed out?

Sounds like you are just looking for a reason to be able to say something is inferior.  Also seems to be a common thread with you. 

I have a bit of advice for you:  Learn how to compromise and be able to choose the best option when there isn't a perfect option, because in life there is almost never something "perfect" for you.  Everything in life is about compromise, and the person who spends their entire life waiting for everything to be exactly what they want is going to die unhappy and unsatisfied.

 
 That is Not what I said.   The reply should clear it up, if you take the time and effort to understand it.

 I typically do not complain about things I like...  nor do I always Gush over stuff either... as why bother?   
 I know what I like.   Your bound to dislike things that I like.  It means very little.  Its shallow, to judge a person
by such things.

   It doesnt mean Im a complete bitter sour puss.  Thats just what you read into it from your lack of knowledge of 'me'.

 There are good reasons for what I protest.  For one, its to make people aware, and for them to demand better.

 Some people are brought up with low quality experiences ... such as an extreme example..  of never have ate a Steak.   Only a Hamburger at best..  and those Hamburgers, were not ever seasoned well.
They simply do not know what they are missing...  and ... and they will even take offense to someone who calls it out as it is...  because to them... its the best Hamburg they have ever Ate... and hey,  EVERYONE THEY KNOW LOVES THEM!   And if it was SOOOO BAD...   Why do SOOOO many people eat them?  And WHY would it matter if you had it in steak format or ground up?  ...when they are the same ingredient...  right?    Well, obviously, anyone who has had the pleasure and experience of eating both... would laugh at that logic...  but to them,  you are just being too critical and are a complete snob, troll, and negative Nancy.

 Im sorry if its offensive to you... and hard to accept that the things you may like & love .. are not as Glorious as once thought.   That you were submarined by the powers that run the world,  into being born to live in a generation where a good deal of things made,  are in fact made with cheaper materials, shoddy craftsmanship, planned to fail parts, toxic chemicals / injected foods, some of the most audacious levels of worldwide corruptions ever so blatantly flaunted, with freedoms that are being dangerously whittled away each day...     

 But again...  you will probably take this as an attack on your pride and ego that you have invested in so heavily.    Not realizing..   that one day soon, you will probably be saying the same exact words, shaking your head in disappointment and disgust...  as things sink even Lower than what you consider good / acceptable.   Much like going from a spacious house.. to a rent-a-coffin.   Or a wonderful healthy dinner... to a vile of liquid sludge that tastes like the smell of dirty stinky wet shoes.    Yup, its probably headed that way..  In fact, they have even started propaganda on some of this stuff - to prepare you subconsciously - so that its less of a shock when it hits - and thats all there is on the menu anymore.   That way, your less likely to start a riot.  You will be docile.. and all of those new-gen kids will be like all angry, arrogant, ignorant, zombie-programmed, egotistical,  and self righteous...  and will say  "What are you talking bout Pops?  This Sludge is Awesome!  You just have a negative attitude, and will never be happy...  " 



 There certainly are a lot of cool things from each and ever era...  and I enjoy ALL of the good stuff.   Im passionate.. and make it a point to seek out the best things in life to experience. (that I can afford).   Do I NEED to see a Stereoscopic Imax 3d movie?   Nope.     But hey..   some of them are flippin awesome.   Do I need to buy headphones that allow me to hear about 10x better sound accuracy than the Beats or Bose,  can be worn a whole day without any discomfort, last +13 more years of service (and climbing) - even with daily use + heavy abuse ... and still cost LESS than those Mass Advertised Overpriced Zombie Turds?   Do I need to need to buy used, power hungry, vintage speakers... restore them.. and jam out to sound clarity, 3d depth, and raw power...  that you cant even buy new for +$3000 today? (for like under 200$ fully restored)

 I dont need to have the latest and greatest.. or even the anything near the 'best'.   Couldnt afford it anyways.   But I, like anyone else... has the right to complain about things that are unacceptable, in poor taste,
lacking in features, output, detail, quality, durability...etc.

 
 Whats most disturbing, are people like you..  whom do not even have a Clue about the vastness of the differences...  and are throwing rocks around at people whom Do have a clue.  People whom do have experience with all aspects, have both actual parts! , and knowledge depth, that you lack.   Why?   Popular Opinion?   Defending the Generation?  Defending the Opinions and Egos of the "Clan" of similar posters..  ?


 Geez,  you would Think people would be Thanking me...  for sparing them their wasted cash on Junk...  for a future day to actually acquire something worth their hard earned... and rapidly declining value... Cash.

---

 Thank you for your patience...
 Now,  ...Back to your regularly Scheduled Psychological-Programming Attacks...

[Xiaou2]

This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

At this point, I'm not sure what he's even arguing about. He self admittedly says he hasn't given the GGG button a fair chance but then he's ranting about leafs to me and I already know all about them. Is he arguing that the replacement leafs will never be as good or is he saying they'll never be the same? Either way he's wrong and it's mostly because he didn't even try the button other than put it in a control panel, press it a few times and decide it wasn't good enough.

 Obviously you Dont know everything about them.

 Maybe you would be better off educating yourself on knowledge that you lack, than trying to feed your Ego.

 I have faith that your intelligent enough to be capable...   
 But I have doubts your Ego could take the hit for being wrong... so its better you do not think any more on the subject.

 Enjoy your overpriced plastic piece of garbage,  that performs worse than a product 20yrs its elder.
 

[leapinlew]

Thanks. Will do. 

[RandyT]

Perhaps the most humorous part of all of this is that X2 thinks he possesses some divinely inspired arcade knowledge, which only he is capable of fully grasping.  When I designed the CLASSX button, I drew from experience gained through arcade gaming since before there were color arcade games, and also using the originals in my own home-built control panels in the early eighties.  After collecting multiple authentic panels and actual machines from the early days of arcade gaming, noting the inconsistent (and sometimes incorrect) installations on those panels and taking note of the complaints, regarding adjustment and contact wear, often repeated by operators and enthusiasts, I set out to revive leaf switch buttons by addressing those concerns.  Based on the very positive feedback I have received from actual users, I believe I have succeeded to a more than substantial degree.

Had I wished to merely duplicate a 30 year old design, with all of it's flaws, it would have been much, much simpler....and far less costly, as the molds for these already exist.  But then, none of the shortcomings would be corrected, so there would be no value in doing so.

X2's opinions are as valid as opinions can be.  He has no special knowledge not possessed by many others here, and whether that knowledge and/or capability rises to that of others is another topic for opinionated discussion.

I'm sure he'll have plenty to say about the next thing coming down the pike from GGG, but that won't affect my decisions in the slightest.  It will never be good enough for Steve, but I think the rest of you kind folks will really like it, and that's why we keep putting our butts on the line.