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Author Topic: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences  (Read 25469 times)

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Sky25es

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Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« on: June 17, 2014, 06:12:55 pm »
Rollie Leaf Switch vs Ultimarc's Goldleaf vs GGG's Micro-Leaf Pushbuttons    :dunno
I don't know if this question has been made before but I searched the forum and couldn't find nothing convincing.
So what's the difference between these switches ? I mean, all of them are made to approach as much as possible the feel and behavior of real leaf switch buttons but how they compare to the real deal ?

(I know the Rollie's are true Leaf switches but how do they compare to the old school ones?)

PL1

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 06:20:04 pm »
Don't forget GGG's True-Leaf Pro.   ;D




Scott

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 06:32:53 pm »
Don't forget GGG's True-Leaf Pro.   ;D

Scott

Oops my bad.  :angel: And of course, GGG's True-Leaf Pro too.  ;)

Thanks Scott.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 06:44:15 pm »
The main problem with the replacements... are that they still use the microswitch button setup... where as theres less depth to depress them.

 Why does this matter?   Why would you want a longer travel?

 Leaf switches can be made to activate on a hair trigger..  but you do not want that hair trigger to be too easy to set off - just by setting your fingers on the  button surface.   So.. you will push down a mm or so.. and then it will activate.   From here... you can keep in this zone, and lightly bounce or vibrate your finger on that hair trigger area, with pretty much no fatigue.. as well as no hard crashing Thump.. that comes from bottoming out on a typical button.

 So, its like a diving board or trampoline... or even bungee-cord.   Very easy, very smooth.

 Typical micros are like jumping from the 2nd step of your staircase, and landing your flat on your feet... on the hardwood floor.  The shock travels into your skin, tissue, joints and bones.   It causes fatigue much faster.  It makes a lot more noise.  Its harder to recover energy for the next push...  and micros do not have that rapidfire hair-trigger  bounce spot.

 The biggest problem with real leaf buttons, were that many people bottomed them out, not knowing they didnt have to do so.  In that respect, they would be far worse than a microswitch.. because the travel would be far too long... and the resistance too great.

 
 All of these Vendors have made various leaf concepts.. but they are more in line with fighting game style buttons.  Not classic game buttons.   Some of these can be adjusted.. but even at their farthest adjustments.. most as too sensitive - and will fire when barely putting your fingers on a button top. 

 And when you press them down... because there is so little travel.. and so little spring force...  you will pretty much Always bottom out the button.. and experience that microswitch 'shock-force' thump.   

 No longer that nice butter smooth bungee buttery feel and ease.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 06:47:48 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 06:51:52 pm »
I'm gonna follow this.  I've never used leaf switch buttons and have been very curious.  I can see their utility with shmups and rapid fire games, but it seems regular microswitch buttons would be better for fighters and such.  Looking forward to solid info here.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 07:36:30 pm »
Somewhat agreeing with X2's position (copy-pasted from his numerous rants on the subject? :P  :lol), the Goldleaf and Micro-Leaf buttons really don't belong in the mix since they aren't *real* leaf switches.

Maybe add some pinball flipper leafs from VirtuaPin, Marco Specialties, or Pinball Life.   :dunno

Any suggestions on flipper leaf-switch/switch-holder/pal-nut/button combinations from our resident pinball fans?   ;D


Scott
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 07:41:09 pm by PL1 »

jimmer

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 08:18:02 pm »
Somewhat agreeing with X2's position (copy-pasted from his numerous rants on the subject? :P  :lol), the Goldleaf and Micro-Leaf buttons really don't belong in the mix since they aren't *real* leaf switches.

It's the operating characteristics that matter though, not the technology.

Original leafs buttons had about 5.5mm of travel. Goldleafs have about 3.5mm, Sanwa OBSN 2.5mm and GGG Trueleaf about 2.3mm.  Which is why goldleafs feel more like old style leafs to me, and why I find them easier to rapid fire.

The goldleafs lack the contact mating sound, which is reproduced on the GGG trueleaf. And if you have sensitive fingers you might be able to pick up the change in stiffness at contact on the Trueleaf but it's less pronounced than with an original style leaf.

I found the Rollies to be horrible, but a lot of that might be the fault of the ILSA buttons they were mated to.

And LOLz at OP not being able to find anything on this topic :)


 
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 08:19:44 pm »
The main problem with the replacements... are that they still use the microswitch button setup... where as theres less depth to depress them.
You look at the 3rd button in the picture?

*JUST ASKING*
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 08:24:29 pm »
The main problem with the replacements... are that they still use the microswitch button setup... where as theres less depth to depress them.
You look at the 3rd button in the picture?

*JUST ASKING*

That's still a 'microswitch setup', just with a leaf in there instead of a microswitch. The resulting lack of travel is a major difference to the characteristics of an original leaf button.

On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 08:37:16 pm »
looks like 2 metal prongs that get pushed together, which I wouldnt consider a "microswitch setup" at all. Other than the leaf holder being part of the button, I dont see any difference between it and a "real" leaf.
citation: I just swapped a buncha leafs in my bad dudes cab and also switched over my my 60 in 1 from cherries to leafs.
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 08:45:53 pm »
if "microswitch setup" is only referencing the barrel length, its not the same thing.
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 10:18:24 pm »
GGG True-Leaf Pros FTW.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

ChanceKJ

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 03:10:35 am »
GGG True-Leaf Pros FTW.


Agreed.  i paired a couple with a GGG leaf stick on my PacMan build and it made a world of difference. 

...did i just read a whole post by X2?  ...and also somewhat agree with him?

..no. Not possible. its late, I'm short on sleep, X2's real posts are longer than a copy of War and Peace,  and this is all a nightmare.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:12:26 am by ChanceKJ »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 06:51:33 am »
Quote
You look at the 3rd button in the picture?

*JUST ASKING*

 Of course.   I know these products inside and out.  In fact, I was sent a sample..  which was very kind... but didnt change my opinion.

 *DO YOU HAVE A REAL LEAFSWITCH ARCADE BUTTON?    JUST ASKING...

 These varients could be used for fighting games, unlike real leafs, which are more suited to rapidfire & classics.

 Double the travel, allows a much greater range of actions, without having to bottom out  (smash into the bottom of the button limit / base).

 It allows about a cushion to be able to rest on them without fear of fire....  then a mid-area where rapidfire bounce can occur (of which you are not forced to leave this section...  easily bouncing without incurring large travel loss & additional spring tension)   and finally, if you press further... you start ramping up the springboard energy.. which helps slow you down from the possibility of hitting the bottom.. as well as to help speed you back up when the energy is redirected back up.


 Again, like a diving board.   Do you want to use a diving board that keeps smashing into the pavement with even light jumping?  or one that ... if you jump too heavily, will still unlikely hit the ground?

 In Groovys version, I was accidentally causing the switch to activate with the smallest pressure of setting my fingers on it lightly.   This isnt optimal for me at all.  As I dont want to have to hold all of my digits up in the air that entire time Im playing.   And if I press it down, even lightly, it always bottoms out.   Theres not enough spring tension nor travel to stop this.

 Since you THINK you know it all... go and prove it to yourself.  Grab a real old skool leaf.... mount and adjust it, and fire up some Galaga and Asteroids Deluxe.

 Or keep spouting a bunch of USELESS CRAP, trying to look cool, like some childish 4th grader.

 Grown-ups are speaking.  Please go and sit at the Kiddie table over in the corner.   Thanks


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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 07:04:04 am »
And.... The real Xiaou is back.
On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 07:35:03 am »
*DO YOU HAVE A REAL LEAFSWITCH ARCADE BUTTON?    JUST ASKING..
citation: I just swapped a buncha leafs in my bad dudes cab and also switched over my my 60 in 1 from cherries to leafs.


I dont have a true-leaf to compare but I'll prolly order one and see if the difference is that great. The true-leafs apparently have 2.3mm of travel, looks somewhat adjustable, maybe you just have ham fingers?
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2014, 11:37:13 am »
And.... The real Xiaou is back.

 :cheers:
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2014, 01:34:00 pm »
In Groovys version, I was accidentally causing the switch to activate with the smallest pressure of setting my fingers on it lightly.   This isnt optimal for me at all.  As I dont want to have to hold all of my digits up in the air that entire time Im playing.   And if I press it down, even lightly, it always bottoms out.   Theres not enough spring tension nor travel to stop this.

That's because you don't have it adjusted correctly.  If you want more tension, adjust the top leaf (with the holder off the button, of course) then set your gap with the lower one.  If that's not enough to replicate the higher resistance of  the particular "old school" buttons you are used to, remove the spring and give it a little stretch.  "Old school" leaf buttons vary from being completely soft in actuation (Williams, etc.), even less than the CLASSX leaf setup when unadjusted, to very stiff (many after market arcade conversions).  As the early variety are a two part setup, they are also more difficult to install, require shimming or routing of the panel's underside to get the distance between the actuator and switch "just right" and/or require different versions of the button for metal and wood panels.

What you also seem never to mention in your comparisons is that this long throw of the earlier varieties is almost entirely responsible for severe contact wear, and the need for much more frequent switch adjustments/cleaning/replacement.  The longer the throw, the more deflection of the blades occurs, thereby stressing them more, and causing the contact points to slide against each other more aggressively. 

The CLASSX button was designed to provide the performance and adjustability of the "old school" leaf switch buttons, while mitigating the issues which caused them to become extinct.  As the overly long throw of those buttons was the root cause of those issues, replicating it was not desirable, nor is it necessary to provide nearly identical performance.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 01:37:17 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 01:39:34 pm »
*DO YOU HAVE A REAL LEAFSWITCH ARCADE BUTTON?    JUST ASKING..
citation: I just swapped a buncha leafs in my bad dudes cab and also switched over my my 60 in 1 from cherries to leafs.


I dont have a true-leaf to compare but I'll prolly order one and see if the difference is that great. The true-leafs apparently have 2.3mm of travel, looks somewhat adjustable, maybe you just have ham fingers?


 Swapped leafs to micros?  Micros to leafs?  Micros to those ---smurf-poo--- micro-leafs  (small microswichs with a metal leaf end) ???

 As for True leaf, I meant a Real old school 80s leaf button assembly.   Not a knockoff.   Not Randys Micro Leaf pro.  (of which I was given a sample of..  )   and Not even a Pinball leaf...  but a full on 80s leaf button, assembly, and its leaf switch.

 The travel on the real arcade leafs, was already stated at 5.5mm travel.   Of which you would never use the full travel.. as long as you know how they work  (IE: Floating).

 As for the Ham-Finger / Fist comment..  Nope.  My frame is a thin 6ft 170lbs... thins wrists, avg. hands.

 Also, because of my training with soft-style arts... I can be light as a feather when resting on something or someone, such as an ops arm.. so as to better read them.   However, that takes effort.. and I do not have to worry about being 1/100th of an ounce too heavy.. to spell my doom.   Where as Trueleaf pros are so sensitive you can barely look at them, without them activating.  Yes, you can adjust them.... but that adjustment is very limited in scope, and doesn't match the way real arcade leafs feel, react, and operate.


 Btw - I used to actually Hate leafswitches.   As an arcade manager at a busy mall store... I was constantly bothered with older leafsprings that were bending too far due to their age and fatigue.  As well as the difficulty in cleaning the contacts.. and the frequency they needed to be cleaned, in that kind of constant-use environment.   I hold my head in shame, thinking about all the leafs I tossed into the garbage...   as well as the butchery on certain cabinets that I swapped with Microswitches.

 After learning the true nature of them, starting with a re-introduction to a dedicated Robotron with the correct Wico 8way leafs..  I started to understand why no other stick would do.. for this kind of game..   and that furthered when I got an Asteroids Deluxe, that has the original leaf buttons already on it.   After learning how to 'Float' them, rather than fully depress them... I fell in Love in an instant.   Finally making the realization that many had tried to knock into my stubborn head.. in the past.

 Don't be a Stubborn Head.   
 Get some real "Arcade" Leaf controls.
 

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 02:06:35 pm »
Don't be a Stubborn Head.   
 Get some real "Arcade" Leaf controls.

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 02:24:47 pm »
I think I'll get a couple buttons from Randy and put them on the off hand of the bad dudes and see if anyone can tell the difference




EDIT: self imposed clean up duty.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:06:22 am by Malenko »
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 03:18:48 pm »
GGG True-Leaf Pros FTW.

+1.  Although I haven't tried the others and can't offer critiques, I do have 12 of these and love them for their far smaller activation length vs a microswitch.  You can also "tune" them with slight bends if you want. 

While these weren't made in the 80's and can't be considered true leaf buttons in the most literal of senses, they will make a fine substitute for nearly anyone unless you have over 5 years training in soft-style arts.

Also, after reading X2's post, this is how I think of him while he plays with that amazing trigger touch.




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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 04:13:18 pm »
Don't be a Stubborn Head.   
 Get some real "Arcade" Leaf controls.

Easy said... The only drawbacks are: They are scarce and I'm pretty sure they aren't cheap.
In the real world, we have only a few options.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 04:28:06 pm »
I think it also depends what you want to do.  In my case I didn't want to replace my Happ buttons entirely, so I opted to swap out the cherry microswitch with a microleaf one from GGG.  They snapped right in place (a bit awkwardly until I figured out how to do it) and they worked great.  It was a quick upgrade and I don't have to maintain/adjust them in the future, unlike real leaf switches.

Worked for me!

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Sky25es

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 05:33:58 pm »
I think it also depends what you want to do.  In my case I didn't want to replace my Happ buttons entirely, so I opted to swap out the cherry microswitch with a microleaf one from GGG.  They snapped right in place (a bit awkwardly until I figured out how to do it) and they worked great.  It was a quick upgrade and I don't have to maintain/adjust them in the future, unlike real leaf switches.

Worked for me!

DeLuSioNaL29

Hmm... Yeah. That could be a valid option. Mixed pushbuttons, covering the different types of games.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 10:40:01 pm »
I only replaced the ones next to my 4 way. :-)
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 11:01:07 pm »
In Groovy's version, Bla bla bla bla.... Snoore....

That's because you don't have it adjusted correctly....

Oh SNAP!




ok, Ugh... yet another thread I enjoyed, then killed by X2.

Unsubscribed.  :-\

Sky25es

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2014, 05:59:00 am »
In Groovy's version, Bla bla bla bla.... Snoore....

That's because you don't have it adjusted correctly....

Oh SNAP!




ok, Ugh... yet another thread I enjoyed, then killed by X2.

Unsubscribed.  :-\


 :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2014, 01:02:55 pm »
Quote
How you could have taken any way other than what I typed is beyond me. I'll Chad it down for you.......   For the Bad Dudes, I replaced 2 miscolored leafs with the proper colored leafs. You must have known this because you advocated embedding ninja stars and swords into the cabinet when you commented in the restore thread. For the 60 in 1 I took Happ comp buttons with cherry switches out, and in their place put in leafs from an actual Galaga cab.

 I seriously don't know how you carry around so much darkness, bitterness, jealousy, anger and hate... and still manage to have not hung yourself.  I wouldn't bet on you making it another 10yrs though...

 As for your posts, I didn't look and read much.  I saw a few pics, and posted a comment.  Its not like you built a moving cockpit.  It wasn't that interesting to me to pay much attention.

 But Bravo for using real arcade leafs on an older game.

 However... Its not like you are going to get much improvement on a beat-em-up.  You could almost play those with your feet.. as theres very little skill or intensity involved.   Will people notice?   Many may not.  Many are not educated in the feel of buttons.. nor how to properly use a Leaf button to best advantage.   School them in the proper method.. and inform them to pay attention to how if feels when one buttons bottoms out.. where as you can float the other, without bottoming out.  Its pretty clear, pretty quickly.

 Btw - A far better test, is to build a small CP, and put one of each on it.  Have various users play 2 or 3  games of:  Haley's Comet, Galaga, Asteroids Deluxe.  Those are some of the ones that pop into my mind as being highly fatiguing and rapid in reaction times.

Quote
That's because you don't have it adjusted correctly.  If you want more tension, adjust the top leaf (with the holder off the button, of course) then set your gap with the lower one.  If that's not enough to replicate the higher resistance of  the particular "old school" buttons you are used to, remove the spring and give it a little stretch.


 For kicks, If I can find the button amongst my Chaos.. I will try to adjust it to the extremes.  At the time, I didn't want to mangle it up.   But as said, this isn't about the resistance alone.  Its about having your fingers able to sink into the buttons a little.. and not accidentally make a connection occur.  This is also to do with comfort.. much like a soft cushy couch, rather than a stiff wooden chair.

Quote
"Old school" leaf buttons vary from being completely soft in actuation (Williams, etc.), even less than the CLASSX leaf setup when unadjusted, to very stiff (many after market arcade conversions).  As the early variety are a two part setup, they are also more difficult to install, require shimming or routing of the panel's underside to get the distance between the actuator and switch "just right" and/or require different versions of the button for metal and wood panels.

 Im very aware of Leaf technology.  I have plenty of them, in various forms.. as well as have worked & played on many a leaf based machine/controller.

 Stating all of this still does not change the far better feel and performance.


Quote
What you also seem never to mention in your comparisons is that this long throw of the earlier varieties is almost entirely responsible for severe contact wear, and the need for much more frequent switch adjustments/cleaning/replacement.  The longer the throw, the more deflection of the blades occurs, thereby stressing them more, and causing the contact points to slide against each other more aggressively. 


 I mentioned the upset at having to maintain them as an Arcade OP.   Many of these controls lasted 10+ yrs without any problems.  Probably with only mild cleaning.   But like any tech, it will fail eventually.   That's not this issue.

 Happ controls makes a nearly Indestructible shifter.   However, its Ugly as hell, has a really poor shape and feels very awkward in the hands.  To make things worse... the mechanical feel and 'action',  is FAR inferior to many other older Shifters that various companies have produced themselves...    So...   Do we want something that last 50 yrs.. but feels and plays poorly?   Or something that needs some tweaks or replacements every so often... but is very comfy, and precise?     I think most would chose the latter, when dealing with precision things like intense Arcade games..  And the Former, for something like a Blender or Washing machine.

Quote
The CLASSX button was designed to provide the performance and adjustability of the "old school" leaf switch buttons, while mitigating the issues which caused them to become extinct.  As the overly long throw of those buttons was the root cause of those issues, replicating it was not desirable, nor is it necessary to provide nearly identical performance.

 There is no such thing as the Perfect universal button or controller.  Everyone that makes such a device.. is delusional.   And many of the people whom buy them... end up selling them later, and buying other controllers for each specific task / need.

 The issue of throw, comfort, and rapidfire marathon games... are not covered well in your design.
Also, one COULD design a classic leaf replacement that utilizes the same kind of feel and throw... but with better durability.  Yes, it will cost more...  But classic fans, will pay the extra...  rather than suffering with inferior feel and control.


Edit - I will add...  That as a Microswitch replacement, these are probably a better solution, if they can be adjusted to finger-sitting resistance.   But for Leaf games.. its not a good solution, IMO.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 01:12:12 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2014, 02:01:13 pm »
I think BreakThru would be a pretty good test game, 2 buttons, 1 using rapid fire the other for precision jumps.

EDIT: self imposed clean up duty
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:07:03 am by Malenko »
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2014, 02:55:36 pm »

Steve, you complained many years ago that no-one would start producing leaf switch based controls.  At first I resisted, but when finances allowed (well over $15k in investments) I did it for the community to fill the void.  In doing so, I addressed the major shortcomings of the original design, being the high maintenance requirements, finicky installation, large space requirements, and higher cost.  All of which were responsible for an entire industry abandoning them in the distant past.  Since then, we have sold thousands, and the vast majority of users find them to be a huge upgrade over the buttons they replaced.  Not just in arcade machines, but also for pinball flippers.  Your comments about rapid-fire capability being inferior are not grounded in any kind of reality.  If you can't get the same performance from the CLASSX buttons as you do from the original leaf buttons, then you are either unwilling, or physically unable to make any small adjustments in your playing style to make it happen. 

If folks don't mind dealing with the numerous shortcomings of the originals, which the industry long ago turned it's back on, then by all means, those are what they should seek out while the remnants can still be found.   But honestly, Steve, the way you carry on is just detrimental overall.  Anyone who might make the sacrifices necessary in the form of any kind of investment, to entertain your ramblings, are likely to discard such notions, as nothing seems to be good enough for you if it's not an exact replica of 30 year old designs, shortcomings be damned.

I've said this before, and I will unfortunately say it once more: If you really think you can offer the community something which is a major improvement over what is available, take some personal risk, as the dedicated others have done, and do the work it takes to bring it to fruition.  Either you will be right and actually do something which improves the lives of others, or you won't and have to live with the ramifications of your decisions.  Otherwise, you are just pining for the past, without really helping anyone.  As you seem to be fond of analogies, you seem to me to be akin to a movie critic who pathologically feels they must criticize any film which is not in black and white.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2014, 03:14:08 pm »
holy ---fudgesicle---..way too serious in here.

Nothing like reading angry, attacking posts from a bunch of nerds who play arcade games... :applaud:

You can't make it up. :hissy:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2014, 03:32:50 pm »
Nothing like reading angry, attacking posts from a bunch of nerds who play arcade games... :applaud:

Heh, I'm not sure who exactly is angry, but didn't you expect this type of spirited discussion from an arcade controls forum? :)

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2014, 04:34:46 pm »
Nothing like reading angry, attacking posts from a bunch of nerds who play arcade games... :applaud:

Heh, I'm not sure who exactly is angry, but didn't you expect this type of spirited discussion from an arcade controls forum? :)

Spirited?   :laugh2:

I guess we have different definitions of spirited  :dunno

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2014, 04:49:07 pm »
Spirited?   :laugh2:

I guess we have different definitions of spirited  :dunno

You must be new here.  :cheers:

I long ago realized that X2, while indeed having a lot of knowledge, has his ideas set in concrete.  He has a world view that, in his mind, is perfect.  If you disagree with his world view in any way, then you are wrong.  Period.  And he will explain to you in verbose detail exactly why you are wrong, even if his details make sense only to him.

It's high quality entertainment.   :applaud:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2014, 05:13:27 pm »
You must be new here.  :cheers:

I long ago realized that X2, while indeed having a lot of knowledge, has his ideas set in concrete.  He has a world view that, in his mind, is perfect.  If you disagree with his world view in any way, then you are wrong.  Period.  And he will explain to you in verbose detail exactly why you are wrong, even if his details make sense only to him.

It's high quality entertainment.   :applaud:
Wow, I could never think of a way to describe it, but you put it so perfectly* and eloquently. I sir, am in awe.  :cheers:



*I would debate you on him having a lot of knowledge, he does however have strong OPINIONS; and apparently fingers
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:08:10 am by Malenko »
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2014, 07:49:35 pm »
Ok , I'm back, this is getting good.

#Popcorn


Leave it to Randy to dish out a nice big glass of "shut the ---fudgesicle--- up" style realism.  Reading that post made my day. I feel like I need to go spend some money on your site to repay the favor.  :D

Edit: actually, I think I will. Might just have to pull the trigger on some extra leaf buttons for the main build. When I figure out what I want to do I'll shoot you a pm. I may need a favor.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 07:53:34 pm by ChanceKJ »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2014, 08:37:16 pm »
Quote
Yet I haven't stooped so low as to call people Autistic, go fig.

 I believe I called you Bipolar.. and or extreme OCD.   But if the shoe fits...
I wouldnt call it Low.  Id call it more of an statement based on mountains of data thats posted from your daily attacks on me and others here.

 Its funny, because I consider your Hot air to be just that...  Gas.   I dont waste time thinking about you, what you have said, nor continuing to stalk post you 24/7, with the most bitter anger possible.   You do, however.   You cant let Anything go, period.

 But you dont have a problem?!


 I try not to attack anyone... especially for personal things.  But I do retaliate... because I do not believe in letting people abuse and walk all over you without eating the same in return.   After a while, these kinds of people cant deal with the retaliation, and learn to shut their big stinky traps.

 You want to judge and attack... well, thats exactly what you will get back.   Judgement and attacks.   Not just from me, on occasion...  but from everyone you kick around.

Quote
At least you can admit you don't pay attention before you post, so I can respect that. I used leafs because that's what was originally in a Bad Dudes cab.

 Actually, I do pay a lot of attention to things I actually care about... or are interested in..  time being a factor.   Bad Dudes isnt exactly a great classic...  IMO,   and the restore was nothing special to note.  But... At least it wasnt a Pole Position that was stripped of its 360 degree wheel... which despite their being many of them around.. is still always a shame to me.   I find 360 wheel games to be more fun that many of the analog wheel games.   A game of sega's  Turbo, requires much faster reflexes than any modern racer..   and Supersprint is far more challenging than 90% of the drivers out there.   Not that I dont like 3d racer.. because I like all kinds of games from all periods of time.  Just stating that the newer racers tend to be a lot easier... and or a snore fest (sim).

 Still.. are there times when I misread things?   Skim, miss things, misinterpret?   Sure.   Im Human, not a Robot.   And thankfully, Im not Autistic..  though, I often wish I had a Photographic memory thing going for me.   The mere fact that it Bothers you to no end.. that I do not have the Definition of "Ham Fist"  memorized...  is Insanity!   Yup, I guess I dont know English... because I didnt know a few words out of the roughly stated 'Million' words available.   I know.. seriously.. why bother going on with life, when you cant recall every words details to the exacting word by word definition?!   Ahh, but Im sure your already starting to formulate how I SHOULD be looking up these things...  Fact is, I simply dont care  "GASP!".     Fact is, it has pretty much ZERO importance in real-life.   And if it matters that much to you... then you certainly have mental health issues.   As the Majority of people, do Not feel like you.  Yup.. you are in the Minority.  Im talking... maybe 5% if that.

 And for the record..  I used to be scrappy weak, frail, the furthest thing from athletic you would ever know.  Always picked last in Gym... until near 7th grade.  Even then... still really poorly coordinated, and weak.    It wasnt till age 20, that I started training hardcore in the Martial arts.  Taking both day and night classes for a while...  each class 2hrs, with half of that being a full core workout...  and I had a 30min bike ride each way...    Multiply that by 4x a week..    and then add up the countless practice and training outside of class.. and you may get a picture of how much progress was made.   In 3yrs time, I was doing what men 20+ yrs in the arts were incapable of.   This isnt to brag.. just what serious dedication and hard fought intense training can accomplish.   So yeah... it pretty much goes without saying... that Im graceful as a cat now... fast, millimeter accurate, can deliver more power than guys larger than me... with far less distance needed.  Can take heavy impacts (iron body), and can flow and move like water around an Ops limbs & power.   Button use is Obviously my only real weakness however...     ::)   :laugh2:


Quote
I appreciate you advocating that I build multiple control panels , though you yourself have yet to build a single one, I'll have to pass.

 Actually, Ive build quite a few panels, stand alone CPs, and far more complex things.. such as a fully working Star Wars yoke.. out of wood.
I could make a list of things Ive built and restored.. that would overshadow your accomplishments by miles.   But I didnt tell you to make multiple control panels.  I basically said to go and make a test panel.  It takes only a few minutes and some scrap wood.  Often found on the side of the road for free.. when someones el-cheapo MDF / particle board furniture is "curbed" from its failure to hold up to any strain.

Quote
I think swapping one set of player one's buttons over is a much better test, would waste less materials, and they(my guinea pig) can literally switch over to the other buttons with zero down time mid game. Of the games you listed, I only own Galaga and its not JAMMA and I don't have an adapter.

 No mame setup?  Thats kind of sad.

Quote
    For kicks, If I can find the button amongst my Chaos.. I will try to adjust it to the extremes.  At the time, I didn't want to mangle it up.   But as said, this isn't about the resistance alone.  Its about having your fingers able to sink into the buttons a little.. and not accidentally make a connection occur.  This is also to do with comfort.. much like a soft cushy couch, rather than a stiff wooden chair.

I can sink my fingers into a soft cushy couch, how do you sink yours into a stiff wooden chair?
I look forward to you posting how you broke the "piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- button" with your Northern Style Wushu index-finger poke.

 Reading comprehension Fail?

 Thats exactly the point.  You CANT sink your fingers into hardwood.    Much like how a stiff button, is like hardwood.. where an arcade leafswitch is more like a soft cushioned office chair that has a gas filled chamber.  Your fingers pressure allows the leaf to bend and move down slightly, adjusting like the office chairs shock... in a very springy, comfy and easy fashion... yet still staying out of the danger zone of actually registering a button press.

 As for finger strike capability..  you shouldnt knock what you have no experience with.   I tend to stab my fingers into wooden doors quite often.  I tap them on tables quite hard as well.  My fingers dont fold with impact.   Especially when striking soft deep tissue areas of the body.   With a fingers smaller surface area... it doesnt weaken / dissipate the impact forces over a larger spread-out area.   Instead, the energy generated is more concentrated, can penetrate deeper into the Ops body .. and is capable of far greater damage than any other kind of strike.   IE - Which would you rather get throw at you neck.. at about 32 mph?   A 2x4..  or a half-inch diameter metal rod?

 And quite funnily, I dont really train this as much & as seriously as I should.  Ive seem certain practitioners, (and or heard about them) with far stronger fingers, going through some seriously strong materials, in demos.   One famous Sifu pokes holes in stop signs.   Ive also seen certain people inverted, and supporting most all of their mass, by only their two fingers.   Which is probably what you dont get.  Its a full-body supported attack... not a mere Digit.  Meaning, in my case ... 170lb 1/2" rod, moving at +32 feet per second... at some of your weakest areas.


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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2014, 09:26:58 pm »
I believe I called you Bipolar.. and or extreme OCD. 

And then again, I dont have a robotic autistic photographic memory like you.   Then again, Im a free-thinker, which means Im able to think outside of the box, rather than be a stale copying machine, like you.
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2014, 10:00:20 pm »
Quote
Steve, you complained many years ago that no-one would start producing leaf switch based controls.  At first I resisted, but when finances allowed (well over $15k in investments) I did it for the community to fill the void.


 While I appreciate the risk and investment...  You cant try to guilt-trip me because I do not agree with your idea of what constitutes a classic leafswitch 'upgrade'.    Ive had years of abuse from a mother whom used that guilt-trip half-truth BS on me... and what Id finally came away from it... was that I have no need to feel anything from such an abusive attack... except anger, and the decision not to bother talking to, nor responding to the attackers low-ball tactics.

Quote
If you can't get the same performance from the CLASSX buttons as you do from the original leaf buttons, then you are either unwilling, or physically unable to make any small adjustments in your playing style to make it happen.

 This is straight up BULL, and you know it.   Your assembly is mechanically different,  and without half the travel.. its incapable of replicating the original feel and reactions of a classic leaf button.    Similar?   Partially so.. but not the same... and not close enough, as stated.

 Others whom dont know the mechanical qualities of what you suggest, wont understand fully, and may accept your butt-covering maneuver.   But many whom are mechanics, know the real deal... and are face palming and chuckling at the  "SPIN"  thats being applied here.

 Many a year ago... I tried to produce a Discs of Tron spinner with some 2 part plastic mix.  The results were less than adequate.. but heck, it was an interesting experience.   Anyways... when I found out there were certain parts I couldnt make... I was going to alter the original design in a certain way.   I was given the full on  angered  "nose-up"   business, by several..  whom made it very clear they were not interested in such a different approach.   Even if that meant there were No other alternatives...  but to hopefully score a real assembly one day.. via miracle + wallet drain.

 Similarly, I once thought Id build a Wooden Dummy..   but found I didnt know how to cut the square holes through a 12" diameter log.  So I improvised.. and just made the arms stationary.    I even went one step further... to angle the lower arm, as if it were coming from a different vector.  I thought I was making a very clever improovement on a +300 yr old design.    However, after all of the work invested... I finally hung the thing and tried to use it.   I found out immediately, that it was pretty much useless... as the form did not work due to my non moving arms.. as well as the incorrect angle of the bottom arm.   Each design element had long been tested and perfected.. but I didnt know the insides and outs about what and why... until that very moment.   Egg on face, I no longer jump into the belief that I can improve something thats been out there for ages...  often made by designers far more capable,   and has been proven and tested.

 At this point, I probably could tweak some things to make some changes... but only because Ive the experience and in-depth usage knowledge.   Where as I see others constantly making devices that are far inferior...  partly because they have little to no understanding of the form, and how and what is trying to be accomplished with the original device.   As such, they THINK their designs are great... and even Better...  but the experienced people in the actual art..  are rolling their eyes.. and wouldnt pay a nickel for their laughable contraptions.

 While you may have meant well..  you have come up short.. on a major feature of a real leaf button.   I and others, may have tried and failed the same way... also not understanding the reasons.   Heck, I didnt know what made leafs so special until I was in my 30s... which in many ways.. is embarrassing.    (Though, maybe not as embarrassing as my thought that I was being a pioneer as the first to make a so called "ergonomic" curved button layout... and then quickly realizing that it sucked when It was made real -vs-  just placing your fingers on circles drawn on paper...   ...and then having to scrap and re-work the control panel)


Quote
If folks don't mind dealing with the numerous shortcomings of the originals, which the industry long ago turned it's back on, then by all means, those are what they should seek out while the remnants can still be found.   But honestly, Steve, the way you carry on is just detrimental overall.  Anyone who might make the sacrifices necessary in the form of any kind of investment, to entertain your ramblings, are likely to discard such notions, as nothing seems to be good enough for you if it's not an exact replica of 30 year old designs, shortcomings be damned.

 As you stated... leafs had their shortcommings..   and they were replaced with Micros.   But at the same time... what happened?   The game designers no longer made rapidfire games.  Why?  Because nobody could withstand the fatigue with micros.   They then reduced the games difficulty level as a result.. and or made auto-fire games.

 The same thing happened when they introduced those WRETCHED mini-analog thumb sticks.   They are nearly unusable due to the poor leverage point, short length, spring type, and the least deleterious digit.. to control them.    You cant be precise with them at all.   What happened?   The game companies had to Reduce the games needed precision as a result... and or highly reduce the difficulty levels as well. All because some bonehead made the worst possible decision in gaming History.

 So what is detrimental?   People passionate about Quality and Control?   Or people whom are too egotistical to admit they were wrong... and that they didnt really know what they were doing when they made their disastrous design... ?

 Ya know what?   They COULD fix those mini analogs with a que from Sinistar's controller.  In which theres a multiplicative resistance setup.  Making it harder to move the stick.. the further it goes from center... and keeping the center from being pulled out of whack.. due to odd spring forces.    For those whom are lost .. think about that little analog track-stick nub that is on a lot of the laptops.   It takes more pressure to move it.. and its a lot more precise than a slippery mini analog.   However.. even these are not quite on par with the Sinistar centering device:  a four post rubber "X" shape... often called a centering-spider.   Fighting one leg, means that each of the other legs are also involved... so the further you go from center... you multiply the force exponentially.  This gives Sinistar its trademark ability to control the ship in very slow speed.. with incredible precision and accuracy...  yet all the sudden, can burst to hyper fast warp speeds... whenever you choose.   A typical analog thumbstick cant play this game well at all in mame.   Even a large handle analog stick isnt as good... even with its enhanced leverage and thus greater precision.  The spring is too tight in the middle.. and once overcome... too lose to keep you from going too fast too easily, in game.  Therefore.. again, programmers are stuck reducing game difficulty / challenge / intensity... because of CRAPPY controller designs.

 The Detriment to the arcade hobby..  is parts that make classics play Worse than they are meant to be played and enjoyed.
The Detriment to Classic Gaming, is for too many 'Know-it-alls'  to ruin the whole picture of gaming history, and Tarnish it with false and half-truths, to protect their investments and or egos.

Quote
I've said this before, and I will unfortunately say it once more: If you really think you can offer the community something which is a major improvement over what is available, take some personal risk, as the dedicated others have done, and do the work it takes to bring it to fruition.  Either you will be right and actually do something which improves the lives of others, or you won't and have to live with the ramifications of your decisions.  Otherwise, you are just pining for the past, without really helping anyone.  As you seem to be fond of analogies, you seem to me to be akin to a movie critic who pathologically feels they must criticize any film which is not in black and white.

 Its funny that you, and a lot of the others THINK that Im a guy stuck in the ancient past.  This is typical of shallow minded people.

 Im happy playing some of the old Mechanical PCB-Less games, black and white games discrete games, vector games, the classic 80s games.. as I am playing the later Street fighers, Tekken III's,  90s Racers, and even some modern games.   Ive been into games since I was 7, and Im in my 40s now.  Ive owned almost all the consoles, as well as grew up on the old PCs:  Vic20, C-64 & 128, Amiga 500, and a little dabble on some old IBM PC's in the times when Sim City & Wolfenstein 3D were the rage.

 Ive worked in a busy arcade as a manager / repair tech... learning the ins and outs of mechanical design and failure points.. as well as learning about material qualities, stress factors, spring types, and far more.   (Not to mention I used to take apart everything as a kid)

 Since then, Ive got into collecting and restoration work, on both Pinball machines and Vids.

 I own probably 80% of all of the unique specialty arcade controllers that were made.   As well as many unique console controllers.  (Epyx 500xj singe hand ergonimic controller stick - which used microswitches in a consumer stick.. which was unheard of at that time)

 Yet somehow... Im clueless when it comes to Leaf buttons ?    And somehow..  this collector and preservationist... is bad for the hobby and cause... because he wont accept inferior / incorrectly functioning controllers.   A M A Z I N G.

 Dont you worry Randy...  I wont bother bashing your bologna further.   

 However, If Im fortunate in my luck somehow, I may be an up and rising competitor.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2014, 10:09:54 pm »
do you own many leather bound books as well, shelved in rich mahogany shelves?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2014, 08:43:47 am »
Repeatedly calling me, or anyone else autistic or bi-polar (or any other mental condition) as insult is very immature. I am quite sure that many members here have known or know of someone with those conditions or similar and making light of them in that manner is quite insensitive. I don't set the bar very high for you, but even I expected better than that.


I need to stay a little on topic, so there's this part:
Ive ordered 2 of them from Randy to mess around with, and I'll have my nephews do a blind test on multiple games. I sort of do the same thing with a cherry, but I rely on the tension of the spring and not the tension of the top part of the leaf, where I "rest" the striker part of the barrel right on top of the cherry.  While I do have a new MAME set up in process, even if it was complete, I'd still prefer they play the actual JAMMA PCBs. I love emulation but its just not quite the same thing.

EDIT: self imposed clean up duty.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:44:44 am by Malenko »
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2014, 09:36:05 am »


You can hear that he isn't bottoming out the fire button.

That would be much much harder with only 2.3mm of travel.










On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2014, 09:50:33 am »
You can't make this stuff up :laugh2:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2014, 12:40:01 pm »

And that's just from the posts that show up in your recent post history on your profile page, 11 out of 40 posts(27.5%). Tell me again how I'm the one spewing vitriol? Full disclosure, while *most* of that was directed at me, not all of it was.
All X2 does is try to cram as much conversational terrorism into his posts as possible. It's best to just ignore him or he'll be tempted to clutter the forums with more of his nonsense.  :cheers:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2014, 01:36:45 pm »
You can hear that he isn't bottoming out the fire button.

That would be much much harder with only 2.3mm of travel.

Really, it's not.  The beauty of a good leaf switch setup is the ability to adjust them for a particular playing style.  If you notice, this individual doesn't play at all the way X2 insists one must.  His fingers aren't anywhere near the fire button until he wants to actually fire.  This is because the Defender buttons are very soft, and any resting on the button would result in a closed contact.  There's more finger flapping than "floating" going on in this clip, and it doesn't seem to hinder his play.  For an individual who plays like this, I would adjust the CLASSX button to be firm, with a very small contact gap.  It wouldn't feel exactly the same to this individual, but he would likely quickly adapt and realize that the length of motion he normally found necessary is no longer required, possibly resulting in less fatigue while playing.

The other thing which many don't immediately realize is that games which allow for rapid fire, more often than not, have a software limitation for fire frequency.  A great example of this is Asteroids.  No matter how fast you can cycle the button, once you are able to achieve a certain frequency, you will end up with only four, evenly spaced shots on the screen.  With a standard micro, this is difficult to achieve, but with a CLASSX leaf button, it's no problem at all.

Then there is the fact that there are different "old school" leaf buttons and switches out there.  The Defender machine used a different setup than most of the newer machines with the switch holders.  Depending on the build of a particular panel, the feel of the switch could, and did, vary considerably.  Players needed to adapt to a particular machine/game.  This is no different than adapting to a different leaf button, such as the CLASSX, except that you would have the benefit of being able to adjust the switch/button to your specific ideal, and it would remain a constant throughout all games you wish to play on your panel.


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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2014, 01:01:56 pm »
Quote
Really, it's not.  The beauty of a good leaf switch setup is the ability to adjust them for a particular playing style.  If you notice, this individual doesn't play at all the way X2 insists one must.  His fingers aren't anywhere near the fire button until he wants to actually fire.


 Half Truth.  I guess your eyes are not what they used to be Randy...

 He does have an unusual playing style...  He often gets ready to tap in the air, when there is nothing going on.. then uses an accelerated snap, to get the precision timing he wants.   In other times.. hes holding the button down... and then letting it up slightly and floating the button (Floating = Rapidfire vibration firing method).   Yet other times, hes going right into floating mode.

 Nothing saying you cant play a certain way... but that does not mean that you do not have weaknesses in doing so.   Anytime your finger is too far from the button, its far more possible you wont get to the punch in time.. when needed.

 And if you dont have the float ability, and the spring tension and depth needed...  then it only makes it more difficult.

Quote
This is because the Defender buttons are very soft, and any resting on the button would result in a closed contact.  There's more finger flapping than "floating" going on in this clip, and it doesn't seem to hinder his play.

 I seriously doubt this (light finger pressure = fire)... and while my memory is a little fuzzy at times, Im pretty much dead certain Ive never experienced a leaf that was so sensitive that I couldnt rest upon it without fire.  That just would not make much sense.

 And yes, it Does hinged his play.  How many times did we see him die in that short clip?

 Still, you are correct, in that he seems to flap more than float.  Though, he does do it all.

Quote
The other thing which many don't immediately realize is that games which allow for rapid fire, more often than not, have a software limitation for fire frequency.  A great example of this is Asteroids.  No matter how fast you can cycle the button, once you are able to achieve a certain frequency, you will end up with only four, evenly spaced shots on the screen.  With a standard micro, this is difficult to achieve, but with a CLASSX leaf button, it's no problem at all.

 This is a partially true as well... but it doesnt tell the whole story.

 In asterioids deluxe... your limit I believe is actually 5 shots on screen... However, if you hit something close to you, you are recharged immediately.  And when you are talking 4 already out there.. and then you have an asteroid pop up right next to you.. you can litterally fire and recharge in a fraction of a second.   You can unload a stream of nearly never-ending bullets at nearby targets.  So long as they are hit.. you are recharged.  So while it may seem to be limited.. its not quite as limiting as you may be lead to believe.

 
Quote
Players needed to adapt to a particular machine/game.  This is no different than adapting to a different leaf button, such as the CLASSX, except that you would have the benefit of being able to adjust the switch/button to your specific ideal, and it would remain a constant throughout all games you wish to play on your panel.

Or, Players can use the controls that the game plays with, so that there is no need to adapt to a completely different feel, control, and fatigue level.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2014, 01:09:41 pm »
I'll lay $5 on none of you being able to tell the difference in a setup where you can't hear microswitch clicks.

 :cheers:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2014, 01:42:43 pm »
I seriously doubt this (light finger pressure = fire)... and while my memory is a little fuzzy at times, Im pretty much dead certain Ive never experienced a leaf that was so sensitive that I couldnt rest upon it without fire.  That just would not make much sense.

 And yes, it Does hinged his play.  How many times did we see him die in that short clip?

I don't need to rely on memory, fuzzy or not.  I have an original Defender panel sitting here next to my chair, with all original buttons and leafs.  You cannot rest your finger on them with any weight at all, without the contacts closing.  There's a reason he is playing the way he is, and that is it.

Of course, I'm happy to be proven wrong.  Is  there a clip somewhere of you also breaking the million mark on Defender using only your specific play style? (link please)

Quote
In asterioids deluxe... your limit I believe is actually 5 shots on screen... However, if you hit something close to you, you are recharged immediately.  And when you are talking 4 already out there.. and then you have an asteroid pop up right next to you.. you can litterally fire and recharge in a fraction of a second.   You can unload a stream of nearly never-ending bullets at nearby targets.  So long as they are hit.. you are recharged.  So while it may seem to be limited.. its not quite as limiting as you may be lead to believe.

Doesn't change what I wrote.  If you can achieve the maximum frequency the game allows, then all is good.  The only reason it seems faster is because you can keep firing beyond the normal 4 (classic Asteroids) shot limit when one strikes a target.  That doesn't mean that the firing frequency limitation is negated.  It's not unusual at all for a player to get taken out by going head on into an asteroid, attempting to fire their way through, regardless of how fast they are cycling the switch.

Quote
Or, Players can use the controls that the game plays with, so that there is no need to adapt to a completely different feel, control, and fatigue level.

Or, you can read what I wrote and give honest consideration to the fact that no arcade games from different manufacturers are exactly alike in feel, control and supposed "fatigue level".  :P  Even the same games from the same manufacturer will vary in feel, depending on age and use.  Good arcade players have the ability to adapt, based on what they are presented with at a particular location.  They really have no other choice.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2014, 02:20:51 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2014, 01:54:51 pm »
No pic = no Defender panel

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2014, 02:14:49 pm »
No pic = no Defender panel

I don't have one at the moment.  But you can see the machine it comes from in my "Active Marquee" thread.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2014, 06:17:51 pm »
Quote
And that's just from the posts that show up in your recent post history on your profile page, 11 out of 40 posts(27.5%). Tell me again how I'm the one spewing vitriol? Full disclosure, while *most* of that was directed at me, not all of it was.

 Nice to take things out of context.. considering you tend to be the one to throw the first few stones..
Pretty much the same on every one of the posts you chose to frame me on.   I dont attack those without provocation.  Thats a waste of time and energy.   But if you want to step on my tail..  well what do you expect?   You get what you give.


Quote
To actually answer your post, I don't stalk, I actually was doing my best to avoid you, never posting in any thread that you already posted in. But you were posting in many threads I wanted to and I missed out on a bunch a threads I wanted to be a part of.  You however, went into my restore thread, about a game you said you had no interest in, and posted something (that to me didn't make any sense). So who is stalking who? http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139619.msg1445544.html#msg1445544

 WTH?!   So what you are saying... is that as long as I dont appear in a thread, you wont feel compelled to attack me for no good reason?!
You need someone with sanity, to talk some sanity into you.

 I posted in your thread, not to attack.  I dont hold grudges like you do.   I came to see the restore.  Gave my opinions of what I thought would be cool.. and carried on.    I didnt say one negative thing.   Saying I wasnt a huge fan of those types of games, isnt really Negative.  Its an opinion.  And the rest was positive criticism.. not bashing mockery & or non-productive negativity for negativity sake  (as many of your posts seem to be... ).

Quote
Repeatedly calling me, or anyone else autistic or bi-polar (or any other mental condition) as insult is very immature. I am quite sure that many members here haveknow or know of someone with those conditions or similar and making light of them in that manner is quite insensitive. I don't set the bar very high for you, but even I expected better than that from you.

 How could I make light of something that I have a small trait of?   You see, this is the problem, you come and attack... and you have no sound reason for doing so.   So what IS the reason someone would go from 0 to 100,000 in hate, anger, bitterness...etc?   Its gotta be a mental condition.  Which is one reason why I give you far more slack than you deserve.   But maybe if you were better Aware of what kinds of things you are thinking... that were way off-base..   and how your reactions were way "over the top",  you might be more thoughtful before you wasted your time thinking up a bunch of stuff in your head.. and blowing it up at every post I, and others whom rub you funny..  make.

 Yes, your reactions, thoughts and feelings are way over the top.   Calm down.  Chill Out.


Quote
You also seemed to miss several things I was trying to convey, I was probably being too subtle. About knowing the definition of ham-fisted, what I meant was you didn't bother to look up the definition before responding.

 Thought I knew the meaning.  But however, as I SAID BEFORE...  I dont have to look up the meaning of every word.   Thats not a crime punishable by 200,000 lashes with a wet nap.   The fact that you FEEL and THINK that people SHOULD dive into a research frenzy before posting... shows how rigid and obtuse you are.   Much like those who get all offended when someone spells something wrong.  Its a waste of time and energy trying to Force the world to be like YOU think it should be.  Its also wrong to think and feel this way.

 Firstly, you are FAR from what anyone would call Perfect.  And since you cant claim perfection... then you shouldnt try to force your IDEA of what you think Perfection is on others.   Nor should you force or judge others on what you think a certain "Standard" to be upheld is.
Spelling isnt a Moral conundrum!   Nor is typing some slightly off data.   Its not some crime against humanity.  Its not Rape of the Internet.  Its not even worth a single thought, let alone the Rant that you bellow.

Quote
Finger striking was just really highlighting poor sentence structure


 Heh, exactly my point.  If you cant go on a forum without going insane from grammar and sentence structure... then you really have issues.  I mean Serious issues.   You really should look into Meditation.  Work on controlling your minds compulsive obsession of trivial and downright Dumb things.. well beyond your Nazi-Esc  control.


Quote
and just a tiny bit troll baiting you into posting about your magic finger striking.

 Yup, because you cant Troll enough.  Every post you make is pretty much a Troll.

 Where as what Ive posted, were facts and opinions about Leafs.   Such things are Constructive, not Destructive... like trolling posts you seem to favor.

 Ahh...  but you probably think Im trolling You right?   Trolling you with my poor grammer, spelling, opinions, and long descriptions, right?!  Sorry, I have very little time to waste on something so ridiculous.   I am who I am.  Im more artistic, than cerebral... and my memory is Horrible.  We all have our strengths and weaknesses.  But I, unlike you, do not hold such things against others.   

 Then again... I think about such funny things that Ive heard from some of the Cerebrals around here... such as "Anyone can Program".  Sorry, its not true.   The idea that Anyone can do what you do...  is the kind of thinking that comes from someone out of touch with reality.  You simply Dont know what its like to be limited upstairs.  Its sort of like having one leg... and being told that you should be able to walk just like anyone else (without a prosthetic).


Quote
As for you building multiple panels, my point was you don't post any projects of anything you've done, which isn't helping the community at all.


 So what your saying... is that because I dont post... I should be stoned, banned, and abused?   Or that I OWE you and everyone else something?

 Firstly, I post helpful comments and suggestions almost daily...  and have been thanked for them.   Ive even helped someone with some artwork designs.   I guess that stuff doesnt count as Helping ehh?

Quote
I know you were on the crapMAME site and you're still upset about. Perhaps yield your own advice and get over it? Sometimes you do need to take a step back and laugh at yourself. There is no harm in that.  I found a picture of my first MAME cabinet, and its terrible. I'll scan it when I get home.

 I have no embarrassments about my creations.   I simply have changed my ideas on what I would do.. based on things like the "Floating Leaf"  discovery.     If I had an issue with my own stuff, I wouldnt have posted it.  It only got taken down, when I didnt want to pay the raised host fees at homestead.   And of course, it was outdated to what I was planning..    And then I got sick...

 Believe it or not, I have a sense of humor.   But what was posted was an attack, not humor.   Not just to me, but to others as well.
Its downright negative, and a reason why I have chosen not to share much anymore of what I do... and why Others have also chosen the same.

 I dont care if you think its bad or not.  Its not up to you to decide, nor to judge me.  I dont Owe you a single penny.   And my site, which was up for years to inspire others... never earned me one penny either.   In fact, I payed every year to keep it up... just for the sake of inspiration and sharing... despite my low level income.

Quote
I need to stay a little on topic, so there's this part:
I think there is a little validity in your claim to be able to "half press" a leaf, shorten the travel and be able to rapid fire like that. However I also believe I'll be able to do the same thing with the true-leafs.

 You cant have it both ways.  Either it is... or it isnt.   Less travel = Less ability to control that effect... without slamming into the bottom of the button.   If you tighten the spring... you just make it harder to push... and more distance to contact..  but you still will end up with less control and less ability to control the reaction.

 Can you make them float?  Probably.  But not as smooth and effortlessly as a the older leaf buttons.   Not with as much precision, control, and comfort.    When there is a loss.. it has to effect something.  Its basic logic... and its basic physics.

 These are not attacks.  This is statements of facts of physics and opinions / experiences with arcade controls..  and why I disagree that these new leaf buttons are an optimal replacement for classic games.

 However, as said... for a fighter... these leaf buttons might actually be decent.  That is... if you can tune them to not go off with the pressure of a ladybug landing on them...


Quote
Ive ordered 2 of them from Randy to mess around with, and I'll have my nephews do a blind test on multiple games. I sort of do the same thing with a cherry, but I rely on the tension of the spring and not the tension of the top part of the leaf, where I "rest" the striker part of the barrel right on top of the cherry.  While I do have a new MAME set up in process, even if it was complete, I'd still prefer they play the actual JAMMA PCBs. I love emulation but its just not quite the same thing.

 Well, as said, the results really pop out when you are playing something like a non-stop shooter, like Haleys comet.   Also, they may have to be taught how to float the button... rather than mash it down to full travel each time.   Otherwise, they really wont know what difference there is.  Especially with real leafs... where they will actually feel much worse, if you mash them down fully every time... rather than float them.

 Floating isnt that difficult to do with a real arcade leaf..   however, on a limited travel leaf.. Id say it would take a lot more effort and focus to keep that motion exacting.

 I can understand about the PCB thing, which is why I have a few cabs still (though sadly, may be losing due to finances).   
Mame as far as arcade interfacing is still quirky and un-polished..    and original cabs have all the right controls, sound acoustics, artwork, and hopefully, the correct tube-arcade arcade monitor.    Some embellishments can be tasty.. but its far from a generic multicab.
Then again... not everyone has the space or money..  maybe even me  :(

 In the great lines of the Classic movie  "Stripes"   (I wish you would)   "Lighten up Francis"


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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2014, 06:55:28 pm »
As for the leafs, who said they are the end all be all of leaf buttons? All I've read seems to imply they are a very serviceable substitute for the old leafs. The old leafs are only so finite, and their numbers are only decreasing. Whats the harm in having a button available that can replace it? I have 2 of the true leaf pros, and I put em in the bad dudes cab and man if the new buttons weren't so shiny I would have a heck of a time telling the difference between the 2 (played bad dudes and BreakThru) . I personally think that's a great thing to have. A new button that isn't in very limited supply that a layman can use to replace his leafs and not be able to tell the difference.  Full disclosure again, I adjusted the spacing between the legs to approximate the distance on the existing leafs.

To break it down differently, lets give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are 100% right about leafs. Now, take the number of people who will use a leaf exactly the way you think they should be used. Now compare that number against less precise and more common players who don't worry about maximum bullets or fire rate, don't know about floating or bouncing buttons. Which do you think is greater? Do you think the more casual player would be detrimentally impacted by using a true-leaf over and old school leaf? Personally I think they would be fine using a true-leaf , especially if they cant find any old skool leafs.

EDIT: self imposed clean up duty.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:10:11 am by Malenko »
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2014, 08:43:22 pm »
"LADIES! LADIES! ...You're BOTH pretty."

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2014, 01:58:39 pm »
Someone please take a deep breath before I am forced to ban people. No, not for your opinions.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2014, 08:07:40 am »
I've been using LeafSwitch Champs for a while ( http://www.arcadeshop.de/ILSA-Buttons-Leafswitch-Champ_566.html ) but was considering switching to GoldLeaf - how do they compare? 

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2014, 08:11:37 am »
I've been using LeafSwitch Champs for a while ( http://www.arcadeshop.de/ILSA-Buttons-Leafswitch-Champ_566.html ) but was considering switching to GoldLeaf - how do they compare?

Its really going to boil down to preference. I strongly suggest you buy a single GoldLeaf and see how YOU like it.  Then you can write up a review  :cheers:
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2014, 08:21:36 am »
Thats sound advice, I think I'll do that :) 

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2014, 05:57:07 am »
I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2014, 07:54:06 am »
I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.
I might have to order one up and see if I prefer it to the true leaf pro from GGG (which is my current favorite leaf replacement)
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2014, 10:29:05 am »
I received a goldleaf in the post today - I have to say it feels more like an old school leaf button than anything else i've tried, even my leafswitch champs.  I'm pretty impressed.

I'm sure it's a fine button, but it's not a true leaf switch design (regardless of what the advertising might indicate).  No adjustability whatsoever, and a contact size that's a tiny fraction of that of true leaf switches.  They are essentially a Japanese style button, with a concave plunger.  The design of this type of switch is quiet, and eliminates the hysteresis of a snap switch , but doesn't offer the sought after function of an actual leaf switch for some playing styles.  True leaf switches can also last for decades of heavy use, needing only an occasional contact cleaning, so if longevity, adjustability, and the inherent controllable "bounce" function are of importance to you, there's no substitute for the real thing.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 12:16:30 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2014, 05:21:17 pm »
Feels good to me!  Highly recommended!

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2014, 03:05:05 am »
Are these leaf switches compatible with Andy`s Ultralux buttons? Any specifics one should look for to see if they are compatible ?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2014, 10:30:18 am »
The Leafswitch champs from arcadeshop.de work with ultralux buttons.  They feel better with something like happ classic buttons though in my opinion.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2014, 05:30:05 pm »
Are these leaf switches compatible with Andy`s Ultralux buttons? Any specifics one should look for to see if they are compatible ?
What do you mean by compatible?

The connectors (tags?) are of a different size, so maybe not 100% compatible in that respect.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2014, 12:03:00 am »
i don't know what you guys are bickering about, but I think the answer to both of you is.... if you want the button to feel exactly like the original, buy the original cabinet. If you want something that will work like the original and happily let you play any game, buy a current generation leaf-switch.  Personally, I have the GGG true-leafs, and not that I am any type of arcade expert or was ever an "arcade junkie", but it works perfectly... it triggers every time i need it to, and I never get fatigue regardless of the game I am playing.

so I think the simple answer, once again is, if you want it to feel truly original, get the original, because no one button is going to cover all your bases.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2014, 08:17:38 am »
RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2014, 02:38:47 pm »
Hmm, I missed the show because I had no interest in leaf switches.. and the funny thing is that now that I read it, I am thinking about trying some out on my next build.. lol. 

While the following comparison is not specific to leaf switches, I think it fits:  I play a lot of Big Buck HD when out with friends.  After a while, pumping that shotgun gets tiring.  The guys who play competitively will figure out where the switch is and hold the pump handle just in front of it and only move a fraction of an inch to reload.  When I think about a leaf switch that you can dial in for minimal throw and get used to using a lighter touch with, I think about those people who play Big Buck HD competitively.  There is no question that if I could find that sweet spot and train myself to use it reliably, I could improve my game quite a but.  I imagine that in some arcade games this would make a difference. 

But at the same time, as soon as you start making your cabinet universal so it can play a wide range of games, all that benefit goes right out the window.  Some games you want to rest your hands on the buttons, others you don't get near it until you are ready to use it.  So unless you have a dedicated cab, just finding something that is intermediate to everything you play would probably be the best choice, and then it really comes down to reliability and preference for how it feels.

Regarding X2:  I am not trying to stir the pot here but after this and a couple other threads, I have come to the conclusion that X2 is that guy at the car shows who has a nicely restored car and many years experience in restoring cars, but nobody likes to talk to him because HIS way of restoring it is the ONLY way, and anyone who didn't follow his ideals of what the perfect classic car is, is wrong.  Plus while he has a thirst for knowledge and a decent memory, once he latches on to an idea it is set in concrete.  It might make him good at the hobby, but not particularly good at giving advice in the hobby.

And the following is directed straight at X2: Just because you watched "Rain Man" doesn't mean that every autistic person has some special ability to remember things.  Please stop saying "Autistic photographic memory".  Yes, I am offended - my nephew is autistic, my girlfriends son was autistic and died at 18 years old from a seizure, and I dated another woman for a few months whose 7 year old son was autistic.  None of them had the ability to remember everything they see, count cards at a casino, or be able to do complex math without a calculator.  Don't base your "knowledge" of anything on the few pieces of media you have come across in your life. 

As usual, just because something doesn't work FOR YOU, doesn't mean it sucks or is inferior.  You have a PREFERENCE, and that is fine.  You have an OPINION, and that is fine too.  But so do others, and from what I have seen here, most of them don't share yours.  If you keep telling people they are wrong when discussing matters of opinion, regardless of how many facts and how much information you based your opinion on, you are going to get "attacked", so quit being so surprised when it happens.

Why can't you just say "IMHO, I prefer the original leafs from games like 'XXXXXXX', and the reproductions, while an improvement in reliability from the original leafs of 40 years ago, just don't perform the same way."  BOOM, you stated your opinion, gave information that was useful to someone who is interested, and didn't offend anyone because you are just stating your opinion based on some substantial experience.  You're welcome.  :cheers:

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2014, 04:00:57 pm »
RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2014, 04:34:52 pm »
RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2014, 05:10:06 pm »
when you quote him, I can see his text.  :-[


Just accept that you are rong rew , its the only way!  :applaud:
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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2014, 05:11:36 pm »
You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.
Wait, you claim that you use a light touch where you hover over the switch and barely press it, so why would it matter to you if it bottomed out?

Sounds like you are just looking for a reason to be able to say something is inferior.  Also seems to be a common thread with you. 

I have a bit of advice for you:  Learn how to compromise and be able to choose the best option when there isn't a perfect option, because in life there is almost never something "perfect" for you.  Everything in life is about compromise, and the person who spends their entire life waiting for everything to be exactly what they want is going to die unhappy and unsatisfied.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2014, 07:17:40 pm »
RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

 Your still missing the Boat.


 Think about this, as if it were your PC Keyboard... and you were at work, trying to type up some long emails and important documents.    If the keys / buttons are too sensitive..  you run a risk of accidental contact.
More that likely, you will probably make about 50 times as many mistakes.. in a mere 3 minute period of typing.   You would want to strangle the person who had the idea to create something like that... because its way too straining to maintain a  "Butterfly's touch"  over a set of keys / buttons  for long periods of time.   This kind of strain isnt good for you... and it can cause you to develop very stiff / tight muscle & tissue strands, forming injuries like "Carpel Tunnel".  It could also cause extreme violence in the workplace.  lol

 So, you WANT an area of decent tension and enough travel distance away from the contact zone, that allows you to REST your fingers on the buttons with almost or completely "Zero"  need to support them with your muscles.

 Once you decide it.. You then press into the button deep enough to get to the contact zone area.  Once there, you can easily stay in that zone, vibrating the contacts open & closed, with distances as fine as a thin piece of paper.    It takes no real strength, and barely any effort.   The energy is always rebounded like a spring or bungee cord..   so its easy to keep its momentum forces in action.  Similar to a professionals High-Return  Trampolines.


 After the Contact area... the spring forces start to amplify..  and that helps further keep you from bottoming out.   

 If the springs were too light.. you would always bottom out. 
 If the springs were Average, but the space between leaf and the bottom-stopper .. was much more shallow...  it wouldnt have enough distance for collecting all of that force... before you hit the endpoint.
 If the springs were Stronger, it would take too much force to operate repeatedly.  In addition, it would slow things down a Lot.

 If you make it so that the Top of the Leaf is spread very far from the bottom leaf...  you are gaining in more top resistance, more so that the typical spring thats used in the button assembly...  but also,
you can actually half the leafsprings lifespan easily... as bending springs too far, causes quicker metal fatigue.    It also means that the top spring will travel way too far on each press.. and further speed its degradation... that is... if there wasnt a nice bottom to crash into...    And then were are back to square 1.

 You have to realize... that the precise manor of the designed angles, spacing, components, and materials physical qualities..  are what create the magic here.   Any methods that do not use the same principles of operation, will never work well, or as well, for the desired effect.


 Even if you cant fully wrap your brain around the physics of this button / spring stuff..  Im sure you can easily understand a more broader and simplified explanation...

    Think of how many tools there are to cut wood.   Each of these tools has a specific feel, use, advantage, disadvantage... etc.   You can use a hand saw..  but thats going to be a real pain compared to a Jigsaw.  Lots more effort, a lot less work done in the same time.   The Jigsaw totally stinks for precision, and the tablesaw or even a bandsaw.. blows it out of the water... and its far more uncomfortable.. with its constant vibrations.   There are those thin blade Coping saws, which can cut fine details in tight spaces, that a handsaw just couldnt achieve.

 While many machines/tools..etc..   look similar..  with experience, we often find out that these supposedly small differences,  are actually quite huge and important...  and why one thing will feel and function great.. where as others.. do not do so well in the tasks required / desired.


 

 Shock Force - Repeated Info


 If you bottom out a button... its like jumping on a diving board thats hovering a few inches over a concrete block.   Upon jumping on it... it smashes into the block.. and the shock force travels right into your skeletal system... as well as the tissues.   It doesnt feel that good... especially when done for a long time periods under heavy stress.   It also slows down the speed potentials of repeated action... due to a lot of the momentum being lost on an abrupt impact.   

 Do not bother with the newton ball examples, as your gushy digits are not anywhere near as conductive, nor are they devoid of painful sensations and internal degradations.    Your very skin absorbs a lot of the forces..  but it still takes its toll on you over the course of time.

 In a normal classic leaf assembly, that energy is stored in the spring, and is re-used over and over again, with minimal loss. 


 With a Fighting game, or a game thats not very  "Rapidfire /  Intense"  , you dont need to worry about this...  and in these cases, its most often better to have that strong resistance, and that solid hard snap and crashing thunk..  to make sure that the actions were accurate and deliberate...  rather than accidental.

 However, with Rapidfire games, such as Halleys Comet...  it would kill you to try to use a microswitch for any length of time.   You will fatigue way too easily and quickly... and your fire rate wont be a 10th of what you could get with a real leaf button.

 This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

  - Knowing that you dont have to use the full travel of the button.  The leaf will depress about a mm or two..  and will activate somewhere in the upper-middle point.  The rest of the travel is made to absorb and rebound the forces, without any collision shock forces  (unless your hitting the buttons like sledge hammers).

 - Knowing how to "Float"  the button.   By first getting to the contact point.. and then lightly vibrating your fingers.. you can cause the contacts to open and close in distances at small as thin sheet of paper.  This makes for really fast repeated rapidfire action...  but requires about 85% less energy to do.   Since there is plenty of space after the contacts touch... you are easily able to maintain the action without accidentally bottoming out to an impact.

 

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2014, 08:04:49 pm »
RandyT is right in that X2 made a goof by not configuring. Leafs aren't like Microswitches and require some tweaking from time to time. This is a rookie mistake. You simply put the metal pins closer/further apart for your personal preference for travel. For my defender setup, I have a very short distance of travel.

In a lot of games, I couldn't tell if it were Microswitches or Leafs, but with defender - it would be pretty easy to tell.

 You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.

It's a leaf - why would you worry about it bottoming out? For my configurations, I make the buttons very light touch to reduce the travel. Bottoming out isn't really a concern. Why are you so concerned about it?

 Your

 

That's as far as I got with your post and it's a typo.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2014, 08:08:13 pm »
Quote
This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2014, 08:35:13 pm »
Quote
This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

At this point, I'm not sure what he's even arguing about. He self admittedly says he hasn't given the GGG button a fair chance but then he's ranting about leafs to me and I already know all about them. Is he arguing that the replacement leafs will never be as good or is he saying they'll never be the same? Either way he's wrong and it's mostly because he didn't even try the button other than put it in a control panel, press it a few times and decide it wasn't good enough.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2014, 08:36:45 pm »

 De-Programmer  /On
 WakeUp Mode    /On

You missed the Boat.

 Doesnt matter if you adjust it.  The travel can Never be the same as a real Leafswitch assembly.   It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.
Wait, you claim that you use a light touch where you hover over the switch and barely press it, so why would it matter to you if it bottomed out?

Sounds like you are just looking for a reason to be able to say something is inferior.  Also seems to be a common thread with you. 

I have a bit of advice for you:  Learn how to compromise and be able to choose the best option when there isn't a perfect option, because in life there is almost never something "perfect" for you.  Everything in life is about compromise, and the person who spends their entire life waiting for everything to be exactly what they want is going to die unhappy and unsatisfied.

 
 That is Not what I said.   The reply should clear it up, if you take the time and effort to understand it.

 I typically do not complain about things I like...  nor do I always Gush over stuff either... as why bother?   
 I know what I like.   Your bound to dislike things that I like.  It means very little.  Its shallow, to judge a person
by such things.

   It doesnt mean Im a complete bitter sour puss.  Thats just what you read into it from your lack of knowledge of 'me'.

 There are good reasons for what I protest.  For one, its to make people aware, and for them to demand better.

 Some people are brought up with low quality experiences ... such as an extreme example..  of never have ate a Steak.   Only a Hamburger at best..  and those Hamburgers, were not ever seasoned well.
They simply do not know what they are missing...  and ... and they will even take offense to someone who calls it out as it is...  because to them... its the best Hamburg they have ever Ate... and hey,  EVERYONE THEY KNOW LOVES THEM!   And if it was SOOOO BAD...   Why do SOOOO many people eat them?  And WHY would it matter if you had it in steak format or ground up?  ...when they are the same ingredient...  right?    Well, obviously, anyone who has had the pleasure and experience of eating both... would laugh at that logic...  but to them,  you are just being too critical and are a complete snob, troll, and negative Nancy.

 Im sorry if its offensive to you... and hard to accept that the things you may like & love .. are not as Glorious as once thought.   That you were submarined by the powers that run the world,  into being born to live in a generation where a good deal of things made,  are in fact made with cheaper materials, shoddy craftsmanship, planned to fail parts, toxic chemicals / injected foods, some of the most audacious levels of worldwide corruptions ever so blatantly flaunted, with freedoms that are being dangerously whittled away each day...     

 But again...  you will probably take this as an attack on your pride and ego that you have invested in so heavily.    Not realizing..   that one day soon, you will probably be saying the same exact words, shaking your head in disappointment and disgust...  as things sink even Lower than what you consider good / acceptable.   Much like going from a spacious house.. to a rent-a-coffin.   Or a wonderful healthy dinner... to a vile of liquid sludge that tastes like the smell of dirty stinky wet shoes.    Yup, its probably headed that way..  In fact, they have even started propaganda on some of this stuff - to prepare you subconsciously - so that its less of a shock when it hits - and thats all there is on the menu anymore.   That way, your less likely to start a riot.  You will be docile.. and all of those new-gen kids will be like all angry, arrogant, ignorant, zombie-programmed, egotistical,  and self righteous...  and will say  "What are you talking bout Pops?  This Sludge is Awesome!  You just have a negative attitude, and will never be happy...  " 



 There certainly are a lot of cool things from each and ever era...  and I enjoy ALL of the good stuff.   Im passionate.. and make it a point to seek out the best things in life to experience. (that I can afford).   Do I NEED to see a Stereoscopic Imax 3d movie?   Nope.     But hey..   some of them are flippin awesome.   Do I need to buy headphones that allow me to hear about 10x better sound accuracy than the Beats or Bose,  can be worn a whole day without any discomfort, last +13 more years of service (and climbing) - even with daily use + heavy abuse ... and still cost LESS than those Mass Advertised Overpriced Zombie Turds?   Do I need to need to buy used, power hungry, vintage speakers... restore them.. and jam out to sound clarity, 3d depth, and raw power...  that you cant even buy new for +$3000 today? (for like under 200$ fully restored)

 I dont need to have the latest and greatest.. or even the anything near the 'best'.   Couldnt afford it anyways.   But I, like anyone else... has the right to complain about things that are unacceptable, in poor taste,
lacking in features, output, detail, quality, durability...etc.

 
 Whats most disturbing, are people like you..  whom do not even have a Clue about the vastness of the differences...  and are throwing rocks around at people whom Do have a clue.  People whom do have experience with all aspects, have both actual parts! , and knowledge depth, that you lack.   Why?   Popular Opinion?   Defending the Generation?  Defending the Opinions and Egos of the "Clan" of similar posters..  ?


 Geez,  you would Think people would be Thanking me...  for sparing them their wasted cash on Junk...  for a future day to actually acquire something worth their hard earned... and rapidly declining value... Cash.

---

 Thank you for your patience...
 Now,  ...Back to your regularly Scheduled Psychological-Programming Attacks...


Xiaou2

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2014, 08:45:50 pm »
Quote
This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

This statement is why I just tend to scroll past X2 posts.  His way is the "One true way" and no other way has any merit, regardless of reality.

At this point, I'm not sure what he's even arguing about. He self admittedly says he hasn't given the GGG button a fair chance but then he's ranting about leafs to me and I already know all about them. Is he arguing that the replacement leafs will never be as good or is he saying they'll never be the same? Either way he's wrong and it's mostly because he didn't even try the button other than put it in a control panel, press it a few times and decide it wasn't good enough.

 Obviously you Dont know everything about them.

 Maybe you would be better off educating yourself on knowledge that you lack, than trying to feed your Ego.

 I have faith that your intelligent enough to be capable...   
 But I have doubts your Ego could take the hit for being wrong... so its better you do not think any more on the subject.

 Enjoy your overpriced plastic piece of garbage,  that performs worse than a product 20yrs its elder.
  :cheers:


leapinlew

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2014, 10:30:42 pm »
Thanks. Will do.  ;D

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2014, 11:27:00 pm »

Perhaps the most humorous part of all of this is that X2 thinks he possesses some divinely inspired arcade knowledge, which only he is capable of fully grasping.  When I designed the CLASSX button, I drew from experience gained through arcade gaming since before there were color arcade games, and also using the originals in my own home-built control panels in the early eighties.  After collecting multiple authentic panels and actual machines from the early days of arcade gaming, noting the inconsistent (and sometimes incorrect) installations on those panels and taking note of the complaints, regarding adjustment and contact wear, often repeated by operators and enthusiasts, I set out to revive leaf switch buttons by addressing those concerns.  Based on the very positive feedback I have received from actual users, I believe I have succeeded to a more than substantial degree.

Had I wished to merely duplicate a 30 year old design, with all of it's flaws, it would have been much, much simpler....and far less costly, as the molds for these already exist.  But then, none of the shortcomings would be corrected, so there would be no value in doing so.

X2's opinions are as valid as opinions can be.  He has no special knowledge not possessed by many others here, and whether that knowledge and/or capability rises to that of others is another topic for opinionated discussion.

I'm sure he'll have plenty to say about the next thing coming down the pike from GGG, but that won't affect my decisions in the slightest.  It will never be good enough for Steve, but I think the rest of you kind folks will really like it, and that's why we keep putting our butts on the line. ;)

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #80 on: August 01, 2014, 07:26:58 am »

For what it's worth, I just put one of my true leafs in the lathe and modified the travel up from 2.3mm to 3.5mm.

Much better more to my liking now.

Guess I'll find out in a few weeks? months? if it causes maintenance issues.

On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2014, 07:54:35 am »

For what it's worth, I just put one of my true leafs in the lathe and modified the travel up from 2.3mm to 3.5mm.

Much better more to my liking now.

Guess I'll find out in a few weeks? months? if it causes maintenance issues.

The word on the street is your true leaf is garbage. Sorry dude.  ;)

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2014, 01:37:48 pm »
X2 - What I should say is that after reading your rant, you should see someone about that.  I am sure that a little therapy will help your condition. 

But my nature is to argue when I smell ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---, so here goes:

De-Programmer  /On
 WakeUp Mode    /On
Here is your first problem X2, you assume that MY experience, knowledge, and intelligence is what needs to be "deprogrammed" and enlightened.  My advice to you has mostly been to give you an example of how to express your opinion without offending EVERYONE.  Some day you might see that you are not the only person on the planet with some form of intelligence.  But then after reading this post from you, maybe that day will never come...

So, you said:
It will bottom out, despite your best efforts to keep it from happening.
To which I replied:
Wait, you claim that you use a light touch where you hover over the switch and barely press it, so why would it matter to you if it bottomed out?
Then you said:
That is Not what I said.   The reply should clear it up, if you take the time and effort to understand it.
YET, in your immediate prior post you closed your argument with:
This assumes you know the proper way to use an old school leaf:

  - Knowing that you dont have to use the full travel of the button.  The leaf will depress about a mm or two..  and will activate somewhere in the upper-middle point.  The rest of the travel is made to absorb and rebound the forces, without any collision shock forces  (unless your hitting the buttons like sledge hammers).

 - Knowing how to "Float"  the button.   By first getting to the contact point.. and then lightly vibrating your fingers.. you can cause the contacts to open and close in distances at small as thin sheet of paper.  This makes for really fast repeated rapidfire action...  but requires about 85% less energy to do.   Since there is plenty of space after the contacts touch... you are easily able to maintain the action without accidentally bottoming out to an impact
Now, perhaps I am reading things wrong here, it seems pretty darn clear that you are saying VERY SPECIFICALLY that the proper way to use a leaf is to just barely press the button once you find exactly where it makes contact so that you never bottom it out.  Yet somehow you can ALSO argue that the problem with the leafs is that they bottom out. 

You are either contradictory in your logic or just suck at getting your point across, even with 10 times the words to do so.

(The irony here is that for decades people have complained that I am too verbose, and here I am telling YOU that you are using so many words that if you had a valid point, it was completely lost a long time ago.)

There are good reasons for what I protest.  For one, its to make people aware, and for them to demand better.
Again, you are making an assumption that your opinion is superior to everyone else's.  You claim I don't know you, yet that also means you don't know me, so how is it you can assume you have a clearer understanding of anything, or superior experiences in anything?  I have only counter-argued two points with you on this forum, and in both cases it was clear you assumed that your working knowledge of the facts you were using was second to none, yet in both cases you also couldn't apply the entire set of facts to a working solution.  Here you openly admitted that there were a bucketload of flaws in the "old school" leaf switches, and that most of those flaws were addressed in the current leaf switches that are on the market.  Yet you still maintain that the old original ones are the superior ones.  This is contradictory. 

Whenever you draw a conclusion about something, if you decide that certain data is important to you and other data, no matter how pertinent to the subject, simply isn't important to YOU, the conclusion you derive is OPINION, not FACT.  The facts of the data you have presented here show that each button type has its place.  Yet you try to maintain that ONLY the buttons YOU like are the ones worth having, and that if people would just see it through your extensive experience, they would understand that you are right. 

I bet there is a personality disorder that fits this type of behavior...

Some people are brought up with low quality experiences ... such as an extreme example..  of never have ate a Steak.   Only a Hamburger at best..  and those Hamburgers, were not ever seasoned well. They simply do not know what they are missing...  and ... and they will even take offense to someone who calls it out as it is...  because to them... its the best Hamburg they have ever Ate...
A) you ARE making an offensive comment, but you think it is offensive because I might like my hamburger and think it is the cat's meow.  But that isn't what offends me.  What offends me is that you have the gaul to assume that YOUR experiences in life are of a higher quality than mine.  What gives you the idea that somehow you have experienced anything in life that is better than what I have experienced?
B) Taste, just like most things, is different for each person.  Perhaps I LIKE unseasoned meat over seasoned meat.  And perhaps the way YOU season your meat tastes horrible to me. And the bottom line is that it would be YOUR OPINION that steaks are better than hamburgers.  Regardless of whether someone has experienced a wider variety of beef or not, you are starting with the assumption that YOUR OPINION is a fact, and it simply isn't.  To some, an unseasoned hamburger is better than a steak any day of the week.  You won't understand this though.  Matter of fact you are most likely thinking "this guy is an idiot to think that a hamburger is better than a steak."  This is your biggest flaw.

And let's talk steaks for a moment (although this applies to ANYTHING involving opinion).  It so happens that I HAVE experienced more than just a burger, and in fact have eaten steak at the finest steakhouses in the world.  And when it comes down to it, I would take a Texas Roadhouse 8 oz sirloin over ANY of them.  That's right, that $80 prime cut filet at Mortons isn't as good as the $10 TR sirloin to me.  And the funny thing is that NOTHING you say can convince me otherwise.  I don't care if it is a prime cut of the most flavorful filet that was cut from a premium wagyu cow, dry aged for a year and then prepared to perfection by a master chef, I will still take a cheap $10 steak over it.  But I won't try to argue that FOR YOU the Texas Roadhouse steak is better.  That is the difference between me and you.  I understand that my opinion only really applies universally to me, and while I might be ready and willing to discuss my opinion with others so that they may have a better understanding of a subject, I will never try to tell them that I am more right than them.  It would be futile to do so.  Sure, sometimes it's fun to argue your different points of view, but at some point both people need to acknowledge that it is a matter of opinion, and nobody can state that opinion is fact.

Well, obviously, anyone who has had the pleasure and experience of eating both... would laugh at that logic...  but to them,  you are just being too critical and are a complete snob, troll, and negative Nancy.
Obviously?  I just gave you an example of personal experience where you are wrong.  Period.  You can't say "obviously" when talking about opinion.  I HAVE experienced eating them both, and I still PREFER what you would call "inferior".  And you ARE a snob, troll, or negative nancy if you think for even one second that I should think differently.

Im sorry if its offensive to you... and hard to accept that the things you may like & love .. are not as Glorious as once thought.
But see, they ARE as good as I think, TO ME.  Just as the things you like are just as good as you think they are, TO YOU.  But until you learn the difference between OPINION and FACT, you will always be the "snob".

   That you were submarined by the powers that run the world,  into being born to live in a generation where a good deal of things made,  are in fact made with cheaper materials, shoddy craftsmanship, planned to fail parts, toxic chemicals / injected foods, some of the most audacious levels of worldwide corruptions ever so blatantly flaunted, with freedoms that are being dangerously whittled away each day...   
And as a whole, humanity LOVES it.  And then there are those people like you who can't embrace change based on the idea that because a few things were made better in the past, that the past was somehow a better time to live.  Yet we live longer now, have a FAR better (nearly infinitely better) quality of life today than we ever did, and particularly those of us in prosperous countries, live a lifestyle that has never been so luxurious in all of human history.

And there is no secret "power" out there that is trying to corrupt everything, there is only humanity.  The fact is, people with craft skills decided they were too good for what they were being paid, and started demanding more, and as a result, skilled labor got extremely expensive while materials and automation got extremely cheap, and you saw a shift in overall quality.  Greed and elitism killed craftsmanship, not some secret power hellbent on destroying the world.  And since you seem to have an overabundance of elitism, if you need someone to blame for the lack of quality in some of the goods available today, look in the mirror.
I dont need to have the latest and greatest.. or even the anything near the 'best'.   Couldnt afford it anyways.   But I, like anyone else... has the right to complain about things that are unacceptable, in poor taste, lacking in features, output, detail, quality, durability...etc.
As long as you can't just accept what you can afford and be happy with it, you will never be happy.  Just sayin..

Whats most disturbing, are people like you..  whom do not even have a Clue about the vastness of the differences...  and are throwing rocks around at people whom Do have a clue.  People whom do have experience with all aspects, have both actual parts! , and knowledge depth, that you lack.   Why?   Popular Opinion?   Defending the Generation?  Defending the Opinions and Egos of the "Clan" of similar posters..  ?
No, what is most disturbing is that you somehow think that you are the only person here with a clue or some kind of depth of knowledge.  You assume that EVERYONE here are a bunch of lemmings who will just accept the path everyone else is on. 

The irony is that your entire argument here is based on the idea that what was originally conceived 40 years ago is somehow superior to what everyone here has come up with by thinking outside the box and exploring new ways of doing things.  In my book, that makes YOU the lemming trying to stick to an outdated and antiquated path that was long ago abandoned by the masses for good reasons.

You are so full of yourself that it is a wonder you haven't exploded and covered all your superior old school technology with the ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #83 on: August 01, 2014, 02:00:35 pm »
When I designed the CLASSX button, I drew from experience gained through arcade gaming since before there were color arcade games, and also using the originals in my own home-built control panels in the early eighties.  After collecting multiple authentic panels and actual machines from the early days of arcade gaming, noting the inconsistent (and sometimes incorrect) installations on those panels and taking note of the complaints, regarding adjustment and contact wear, often repeated by operators and enthusiasts, I set out to revive leaf switch buttons by addressing those concerns.  Based on the very positive feedback I have received from actual users, I believe I have succeeded to a more than substantial degree.

Had I wished to merely duplicate a 30 year old design, with all of it's flaws, it would have been much, much simpler....and far less costly, as the molds for these already exist.  But then, none of the shortcomings would be corrected, so there would be no value in doing so.

.....

I think the rest of you kind folks will really like it, and that's why we keep putting our butts on the line. ;)

Slightly off topic here, but relevant to Randy's post.  I'm finally starting my build after gathering parts for 4 years.  Randy, on my last order of parts you sent me some Groovy Standard Soft-Touch Microswitches.  Another one of those innovations from you and your experience in this field. 

I hate you!  In a good way  :cry:  :applaud:

I now want to replace all my switches (that I haven't even installed yet) with soft-touch ones....they are so much nicer to my sense of touch than the standard microswitch.

So thank you, I think  :D

More on topic, I don't recall from my arcade going youth the big difference between a leaf and micro switch but I have to say I am curious, I may have to order a few and see how they feel (for me I'm sure the newer options will work just fine).

lamprey

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #84 on: August 01, 2014, 02:57:13 pm »
More on topic, I don't recall from my arcade going youth the big difference between a leaf and micro switch but I have to say I am curious, I may have to order a few and see how they feel (for me I'm sure the newer options will work just fine).
Don't order a few, get all that you need. That will save you on shipping for the next order you'll make to get the rest of the leaf switches you didn't the first time! ;)

leapinlew

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #85 on: August 01, 2014, 04:09:52 pm »
Some games benefit much more than others. Defender is the best example I can think of, but Track and Field is definitely a close second. Some games require rapid fire while others have a more set rate of fire. Mortal Kombat is a game that wouldn't matter if it were microswitch or leafs. Same with Galaga.

Personally, I just like to have no loud clicky noises coming from the games.

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2014, 01:36:16 pm »

Quote
But my nature is to argue when I smell ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---, so here goes:


  Well, lets start with the Obvious.   You immediately dispense a nasty and negative comment.   From my experience, (personal and witnessing it in others later... )  People whom tend to use such negative language and expression.. tend to have poor self control, and little to no self respect.   Hence, if you dont respect yourself... why would you respect someone else?

 What you are doing is Pre-Assuming  - or - Presuming.. on the side of negativity... and since your Ego is so grand, you want to defend the the stuff that it represents.. in the form of a  Presumptious Attack.   One you believe you will win.. which will make it all the more good for your Massive Ego...

 You see... theres a big difference between you and me.  When I point things out... such as when someone does a Stance incorrectly In the Martial Arts...  I dont tend to make fun of them.  I tend to spend time explaining why what they are doing is incorrect.  I have good reasons and examples to back this..  as well as a wealth of experience in the area, from hardcore, high speed, heavy contact, sparring bouts... usually against Ops about 2x my mass and strength.

 I dont do it for the Ego boost.  Ego means NOTHING in the face of a real Life and Death situation...  and what I studied, was solely towards that end.  Not for some gaudy looking ego-boasting figurines  (Trophies).  Its all good and fine if you like sport based competition... and while you still are effectively better than having no skill... you still are not combat level prepared. Most all of the arts have been intentionally watered down, to take away the power from the people... to keep them from much harsher rebellions.

 Yup, this may in fact hurt someones ego, when they feel so lofty and good about their Trophy collection... and the very hard effort they had invested to get there.  But it is the very fact that you attacked me... and so when I dish it back... you get all bent out of shape.. then try to tell me I should be Nicer in the face of your Attacks.   Its in fact your Ego that cant handle being dismantled.  Let it go, and you can grow.

Quote
Here is your first problem X2, you assume that MY experience, knowledge, and intelligence is what needs to be "deprogrammed" and enlightened.  My advice to you has mostly been to give you an example of how to express your opinion without offending EVERYONE.  Some day you might see that you are not the only person on the planet with some form of intelligence.  But then after reading this post from you, maybe that day will never come...

 Well, here is your 2nd problem.  You Assume that Im making assumptions.  Wrong.  I reply with information, based on whats needed.. or on the actual evidence in the reply.   And many times, I try to stay clear of personal issues... but when someone like Mel keeps attacking me, even when Im not even around... well then, its time to put him in his place.. because clearly he DOES have issues.  Big issues.

 But its funny how your grand backhanded 'im helping you',  turns into a negative, at the end...
 

Quote
Now, perhaps I am reading things wrong here

 - This.  Its a good start.  Admitting your not sure.   But then after.. its based on assumption, rather than a further question..

Quote
it seems pretty darn clear that you are saying VERY SPECIFICALLY that the proper way to use a leaf is to just barely press the button once you find exactly where it makes contact so that you never bottom it out.  Yet somehow you can ALSO argue that the problem with the leafs is that they bottom out.

 You are missing the boat again.


 The argument here, is about a 1980s style classic leaf switch button & holder assembly + its leaf switch...

  *** VS *** 

 The NEW modified Happs microswitch button assembly, with a different kind of leaf switch installed in a very different way.


 - The older leaf buttons have something like twice the depth of travel than the Happs microswitch buttons.
 - This makes it easier to keep from bottoming out a button... leading to discomfort and slower speeds.


 I find it somewhat surprising that you dont know the difference... being that these things are staples to the hobby.
But Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.. and assume that its your youth and inexperience...

 And NO...

 You do not press the 80s leaf buttons with a light touch.. you can lay your fingers on them with good pressure, and they will not accidentally fire on you.   This keeps your fingers loose, relaxed, and ready to react much faster than someone who had to maintain stiff control 'hovering' lightly on a button.

 Next, you will press the old button to fire... at normal strength and speed... but it wont bottom out,  so long as you do not use over-bearing brute force.   The older leafs are beefier and put up a very strong resistance once you get to them.. and start to bend past them.   In case you didnt know... theres also a second spring on the old leaf buttons as well. 


 A microswitch button however, does not have the travel space to do such a thing.  You press a happs button at the same intensity.. and it will ALWAYS bottom out.   A huge Part of this is due to the shorter travel.  The rest is due to the way a microswitch works.

 But when we talk about the Happs button with the Newer leafs in them.. its still the same story.  Use the same intensity press as a normal microswitch press... and it still will bottom out... even if you bend those thinner new leafs to hell.  Part of this is that the new leafs are not meant for heavy pressure.  The new leaf-button is designed to be bottomed out.  The new leaf springs are not capable of putting the kinds of resistance and bounce that the older leafs can.   Again, this is due to the designers thoughts.. that the button SHOULD bottom out.

 The designer, did not understand the reasoning of whys and the benefits of the older design.  He could only see the mechanical downfalls.   The ORIGINAL designers knew the downfalls, and chose to use them anyways... due to the better feel and playability, lower fatigue, faster responses...etc.

Quote
(The irony here is that for decades people have complained that I am too verbose, and here I am telling YOU that you are using so many words that if you had a valid point, it was completely lost a long time ago.)

 The Irony here.. is that you dont even know what we are talking about,  and chose to jump into the argument.
Quote

Again, you are making an assumption that your opinion is superior to everyone else's.  You claim I don't know you, yet that also means you don't know me, so how is it you can assume you have a clearer understanding of anything, or superior experiences in anything?  I have only counter-argued two points with you on this forum, and in both cases it was clear you assumed that your working knowledge of the facts you were using was second to none, yet in both cases you also couldn't apply the entire set of facts to a working solution.  Here you openly admitted that there were a bucketload of flaws in the "old school" leaf switches, and that most of those flaws were addressed in the current leaf switches that are on the market.  Yet you still maintain that the old original ones are the superior ones.  This is contradictory.

 NO.

 its NOT contradictory!   The older leafs do have a mechanical flaw... that will probably take a home user, about 30 yrs of play before they occur.  (Springs eventually lose their flex strength, due to fatigue)

 Lets apply this in speaker technology...

  You can make a speaker that lasts forever with todays technology... but.... does it SOUND better???!!!  nope.

 Older leaf buttons PLAY BETTER !!!   About 1000x better.   Less fatigue.  Quicker rapidfire bouts.  Far superior comfort.
Just because they will eventually fail, does not make them worse.

 In fact, almost EVERYHING made, will eventually fail.   

 - Cars brakes & Shocks?   - Fail
 - Precision crafted engines with ridiculous tolerances?   - Fail.   
 - Tires?  - Fail
 - LEDS?  - Fail.
 - Bearings - Fail.
 - Springs - Fail.
 - Metal - Fail (Rust)

 NOTHING lasts forever.  Especially if its mechanical in nature.

 But even if it DID last forever..  it doesnt change the reality, that something that performs and or feels better, is more desirable... and thus, superior.


Quote
Whenever you draw a conclusion about something, if you decide that certain data is important to you and other data, no matter how pertinent to the subject, simply isn't important to YOU, the conclusion you derive is OPINION, not FACT.  The facts of the data you have presented here show that each button type has its place.  Yet you try to maintain that ONLY the buttons YOU like are the ones worth having, and that if people would just see it through your extensive experience, they would understand that you are right.

I bet there is a personality disorder that fits this type of behavior...



 Ive stated over and over, that each type of button DOES in fact have its place.

 - Microswitches - best for modern fighting games.
 - Old School leafs - Best for classic and rapidfire games.
 - Re-make leafswitch's in a microswitch body - better suited to fighting game.

 The issue I have, is someone trying to pass off these buttons are being a replacement for the older Leaf buttons.  Its not even CLOSE to being accurate.  Thats like trying to sell a surgeon a Sword, instead of a scalpel.  Or a dentists, a hand drill.

 Its not even close to how the originals work.. and the reasons why they are pretty much a requirement for playing certain games.

 So again, your lack of information, had placed a lot of Egg all over your face.

leapinlew

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2014, 03:41:53 pm »
The argument here, is about a 1980s style classic leaf switch button & holder assembly + its leaf switch...

  *** VS *** 

 The NEW modified Happs microswitch button assembly, with a different kind of leaf switch installed in a very different way.


 - The older leaf buttons have something like twice the depth of travel than the Happs microswitch buttons.
 - This makes it easier to keep from bottoming out a button... leading to discomfort and slower speeds.

Uh, no. The discussion is about Rollie Leaf Switch vs Ultimarc's Goldleaf vs GGG's Micro-Leaf Pushbuttons vs  GGG's True-Leaf Pro. You'll notice you start in the 3rd post bashing all the buttons.

Later in the thread you admit to not really trying the new buttons. I can assure you that with even the slightest bit of configuration, you can easily rest your fingers on a button and fire by finding the sweet spot in the button and the travel is more than enough to not be an issue.

Look at it this way, right now we are bus drivers and you are mouthing off about the inferiority of laserdiscs. If you experienced the setups I have, I can assure you that you would quickly stand down from your current position or at the very least you would decide that at least some of the replacements out there are at least equal.

Brother, quit eating your unseasoned hamburger and join us for steak! lol

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2014, 05:37:08 pm »
Someone in this thread needs to get laid.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Xiaou2

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2014, 07:47:56 pm »
The argument here, is about a 1980s style classic leaf switch button & holder assembly + its leaf switch...

  *** VS *** 

 The NEW modified Happs microswitch button assembly, with a different kind of leaf switch installed in a very different way.


 - The older leaf buttons have something like twice the depth of travel than the Happs microswitch buttons.
 - This makes it easier to keep from bottoming out a button... leading to discomfort and slower speeds.

Uh, no. The discussion is about Rollie Leaf Switch vs Ultimarc's Goldleaf vs GGG's Micro-Leaf Pushbuttons vs  GGG's True-Leaf Pro. You'll notice you start in the 3rd post bashing all the buttons.

Later in the thread you admit to not really trying the new buttons. I can assure you that with even the slightest bit of configuration, you can easily rest your fingers on a button and fire by finding the sweet spot in the button and the travel is more than enough to not be an issue.

Look at it this way, right now we are bus drivers and you are mouthing off about the inferiority of laserdiscs. If you experienced the setups I have, I can assure you that you would quickly stand down from your current position or at the very least you would decide that at least some of the replacements out there are at least equal.

Brother, quit eating your unseasoned hamburger and join us for steak! lol

 Yes I did try them, in my hand.  Its very easy to feel that they were way too easy to depress.. and that the travel was far too short to keep them from bottoming out.   They are not optimal for, and Id never install them on my games, such as my Asteroids Deluxe.

 Any extreme bending of the switches will not change the nature enough to fix the design problems.   It will also shorten the lifespan of the blades.. due to you expediting the fatigue of the metal.



 Also, your Galaga Statement... it not true.

 Galaga does have its rapidfire moments, most especially when the strings of enemies roll in... but more important than that.. if your any good at all with that game.. you will be playing for spans up to and over 8 min easily.  That amount of button pressing will start to wear you down... if your using the wrong kind of button.

 If your using an older style leaf, with the "Floating" method... then you wont be fatigued at all.  Trying to use a microswitch however... and your going to be aching.

 I know this very well... because, way back in the day... I took pretty much all of the leafswitches out of the arcade I was managing / repairing.   Not only were there complaints..  but I myself felt the difference,  and re-installed the leafs on certain games.. despite the more challenging maintenance.


dkersten

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Re: Leaf style Pushbuttons and their differences
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2014, 10:42:21 pm »
  Well, lets start with the Obvious.   You immediately dispense a nasty and negative comment.   From my experience, (personal and witnessing it in others later... )  People whom tend to use such negative language and expression.. tend to have poor self control, and little to no self respect.   Hence, if you dont respect yourself... why would you respect someone else?
Uh, that disclaimer was intended for others as a warning that while the polite thing to do would be to just let the troll lie, I couldn't resist the enjoyment of a good internet discussion.  While a half dozen people here have PM'd me to "not waste the words" on you, I actually enjoy a good back and forth, particularly with someone like you who thinks that A) their opinions are irrefutable, and B) their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- don't stink.

And yes, I used a few words that could be considered profanity.  Sorry, I worked in a shop for 9 years, those words are pretty much standard vocabulary anywhere that men who don't wear ties work.  Plus sometimes the more "colorful" language gets the point across better than more mundane terminology.  The idea that you think that the use of profanity is somehow a reflection of a lack of self respect gives me another glimpse of the type of environment you grew up in, and I am sorry, it must have been rough. 

Respect, by the way, is earned, and I tend to give everyone I meet (both in real life and on the internet) a "base" measure of respect, and let them earn or lose that respect as time goes on.  In two threads your insistence on proving that your OPINION is somehow an irrefutable fact has pretty much removed any respect I had for you.  Hence my saying that I smelled "---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---"..
What you are doing is Pre-Assuming  - or - Presuming.. on the side of negativity... and since your Ego is so grand, you want to defend the the stuff that it represents.. in the form of a  Presumptious Attack.   One you believe you will win.. which will make it all the more good for your Massive Ego...
I didn't presume anything, your posts have shown me exactly what your stance is, and I am not attacking, I am just pointing some things out that you still can't seem to accept.  You have an opinion, just as everyone else here does, but somehow you "PRESUME" that yours is right and everyone else's is wrong.  And you say I have a massive ego  :laugh2:

You see... theres a big difference between you and me.  When I point things out... such as when someone does a Stance incorrectly In the Martial Arts...  I dont tend to make fun of them.  I tend to spend time explaining why what they are doing is incorrect.
Yes there IS a big difference.  First I don't believe that everything that comes out of my mouth is 100% correct and hence that I am "teaching" everyone.  You seem to view everything you talk about as if you mastered it, and hence everyone else in this world is a student to your mastery.  And furthermore, I know that pointing anything out to you will be ignored, so adding some sarcasm and a little jab here and there might make you stop and take notice of what is actually being said. It was futile though, you missed every bit of truth in my response to you and still assume you are correct in every regard and that I am just some youth who is attacking you just for fun.

I dont do it for the Ego boost.
If you don't do it for Ego boost, then how come this one post has no fewer than 3 paragraphs detailing your martial arts experience??  This is an arcade forum and a thread talking about button switches, yet somehow you have managed to interject a half dozen paragraphs about your martial art discipline and mastery, as well as your trophies.  Don't kid yourself, you are bragging.

I know why you got into martial arts - it was because you were bullied as a kid, and from your earlier comments, because you probably grew up in a pretty strict home that probably included some abuse and it turned you into a very anal person who requires perfection in all things.  I would put money on it that at your computer right now, nothing is out of place.  Thing is, I don't care, it has no bearing here.  (just so you don't go on a rampage and write another page about some martial arts experience, I am making some assumptions based on your previous posts, but I bet I am right)

Its in fact your Ego that cant handle being dismantled.  Let it go, and you can grow.
I have nothing to let go.  I don't even own a leaf switch, and I am happy with my clicky buttons.  I am having a good time arguing with you and pointing out where you are mistaken, more because you need someone to point out, in detail, what you are missing than because I have some kind of need to be right.  You are so confident that what you say is irrefutable fact and I happen to know from my own experience and background that while you have a lot of factual information to back up your arguments, your application is extremely narrow minded and you aren't good at applying your knowledge to anything other than your narrow minded views.  So I am pointing this out and it is driving you to write paragraphs about your martial arts experience (which has nothing to do with your ego or insecurity of course), while at the same time you are contradicting yourself and failing to just simply admit that your arguments are OPINION.

Quote from: Xiaou2
Well, here is your 2nd problem.  You Assume that Im making assumptions.  Wrong.
Given that you know nothing of my experiences, YOU are the one making assumptions.  My replies have been based on what you have said, which doesn't assume anything, unless I say "I am assuming" or "Just guessing here" or something of that nature.

Quote from: Xiaou2
I reply with information, based on whats needed.. or on the actual evidence in the reply.   And many times, I try to stay clear of personal issues... but when someone like Mel keeps attacking me, even when Im not even around... well then, its time to put him in his place.. because clearly he DOES have issues.  Big issues.
No, you reply with your OPINION, based on your experience.  Then you try to shove it down everyone's throat as fact, and then tell everyone they are wrong and you are right because "facts" back you up.  Yet you glaze over the facts that would nullify your opinion for other situations outside your own.  And still you can't even admit that your opinion may not actually apply to others.  Heck, someone showed a VIDEO of someone using a technique that disputed your opinion and still you said that they were wrong and your way was better.. You can't get much worse of an ego problem than that...

Quote from: Xiaou2
This.  Its a good start.  Admitting your not sure.
Actually that was sarcasm.. But you should try the whole "admitting you are not sure" thing sometime... it is easy, just preface your bold statements with the letters IMHO.  It might change your life to stop thinking you are on top of the world looking down on all of us.
 
I won't bother to argue your opinion of what this discussion is about because someone already pointed out the FACTS rather well.

But I will comment on:
Quote from: Xiaou2
you can lay your fingers on them with good pressure, and they will not accidentally fire on you.   This keeps your fingers loose, relaxed, and ready to react much faster than someone who had to maintain stiff control 'hovering' lightly on a button.
Perhaps your fingers are light and delicate, mine can't "rest" on even my sloppy, long throw, clicky switch buttons without triggering them, I have to "hover" to some extent (not completely, but I know when I fall asleep at the keyboard because I start to see long strings of a single letter as when I fall asleep and actually rest my fingers, they depress).  I don't have a problem with it.. I type on a keyboard all day long, usually for 9-10 hours, then spend another 3-6 hours playing games, usually PC games that require my hands hovering over keys for the duration.  By default, to some extent I am holding my fingers over the buttons and only partially resting on them.  And the amount that I "rest" on the buttons doesn't depress them at all, because it doesn't break static friction of the button.

But my entire argument has simply been that your have your opinion and your preferences.  Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't make you wrong, it just doesn't make you universally right.  You are right IN YOUR WORLD, and that should be all that matters.  Unfortunately your ego means that your opinion needs to apply to the entire world, and every situation, regardless of how different it is from yours.  There is, in your mind, one way to do things right for everything, and whatever you have come up with in your life experience is the one and only answer.  All I am doing is pointing out that you are wrong when it applies to others.  You were wrong about the monitors, you are wrong about the leaf switches. 

Quote from: Xiaou2
The Irony here.. is that you dont even know what we are talking about,  and chose to jump into the argument.
No, I knew what others were talking about.. and I was just pointing out that you were being contradictory, which you still are.  I also was pointing out that all your "facts" and knowledge of the subject is still not relevant outside of your personal preference. 

Quote from: Xiaou2
Lets apply this in speaker technology...

  You can make a speaker that lasts forever with todays technology... but.... does it SOUND better???!!!  nope.

 Older leaf buttons PLAY BETTER !!!   About 1000x better.   Less fatigue.  Quicker rapidfire bouts.  Far superior comfort.
Just because they will eventually fail, does not make them worse.
As much as I would love to hear an actual argument regarding speakers, this isn't the place.  But one thing I learned from nearly a decade of building competition stereo systems is that speakers, much like arcade parts, are incredibly subjective.  What I might consider to be the best speakers in the world might sound like crap to you, and vice versa.  As a salesman I might try to convince you that my opinion is better than yours, but nobody is trying to sell you anything here (well, maybe Randy, lol, but this is his business and you did insult his product directly).  I could care less if you use older leaf buttons and think they are the best.  Others here have a different opinion, and your pretention is preventing you from accepting that they might have a point.  You believe you are right and you are going to make sure that everyone on the internet knows that you think you are right, even if it makes you look like an insecure idiot.

Quote from: Xiaou2
NOTHING lasts forever.  Especially if its mechanical in nature.
except for your ability to believe that your opinion is greater than everyone else's.. that seems to be lasting forever.. :blah:

Quote from: Xiaou2
But even if it DID last forever..  it doesnt change the reality, that something that performs and or feels better, is more desirable... and thus, superior.
OK, I will take a stab at showing you what you are saying.  Ferrari, Porsche, and Lamborghini all make some pretty desirable cars that perform as good as just about any car.  But a Ford Shelby GT500 off the factory line can smoke the fastest versions of each brand in the quarter mile.  They are less expensive by 5 times, have more horsepower, are easier to buy, get better gas mileage, and unlike most models of each exotic supercar, can carry 3 passengers plus a driver AND their golf clubs.  You can drive on any road in the U.S. with the mustang and not get stuck, high centered, or cause tens of thousands of dollars of damage to it.  You can take a 2000 mile road trip in one and not need a wheelchair at the end of the trip because they are more comfortable.  And finally, by buying American you are supporting American workers. 

I just made an argument that CLEARLY shows that the Shelby GT500 is superior to exotic cars like Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Porsche.  So now you NEED to believe that those cars are junk in comparison and that you should never even consider owning one, even in your wildest dreams.  And you better not argue it because my facts are right, and since I have driven all 4 cars AND owned 2, my experience is superior to yours. 

See, I can do that too, and just like your argument, it is ridiculous both in it's very nature and in my use of facts, even though everything I said about those cars is 100% true. 

Quote from: Xiaou2
Ive stated over and over, that each type of button DOES in fact have its place.

 - Microswitches - best for modern fighting games.
 - Old School leafs - Best for classic and rapidfire games.
 - Re-make leafswitch's in a microswitch body - better suited to fighting game.

 The issue I have, is someone trying to pass off these buttons are being a replacement for the older Leaf buttons.  Its not even CLOSE to being accurate.  Thats like trying to sell a surgeon a Sword, instead of a scalpel.  Or a dentists, a hand drill.

 Its not even close to how the originals work.. and the reasons why they are pretty much a requirement for playing certain games.
No, it would be like trying to tell a surgeon that he will be a better surgeon if he uses a Havel's scalpel over a Swann-Morton. 

And just like your argument that older LCD's are incapable of playing games on, saying that original buttons are a requirement is completely and utterly false.  As long as you continue to make statements like that, I will be here to point out how much of an idiot it makes you.