Too many buttons!

[Malenko]

I give it a 7 on the Drama Scale.  Good work.

Drama? It was a zero. Funny? a 3.2


Another free translation time! This time its a DOUBLE, so scroll to the bottom of this wall of text after the quote!

I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

 The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

 If you put smaller buttons in on only the two.. it will look odd, and may feel odd as well.

 If space is a concern..  Nake the button spacing tight.  Just barely enough so that you can still turn the button nuts without getting stuck.   You can even place the buttons closer in proximity to the stick.

 Or..   make or buy smaller buttons for All of the buttons.  In this way, you will have reduced space, same feel across the board, same finger positions for precise no-look activation, and a uniform look... as well as retained functionality.

 Ive always thought the standard arcade buttons were a little on the large size personally.


 As for SFII, Its been a long time since Ive played..  but I believe there were instances in combinations.. where you could use the quicks to good advantage.   However, its far more needed in other fighters.. such as KI.   Which, once you get used to its system of combos, is well worth the efforts and extra button space.

 As for MKIII..  I cant imagine trying to play it without the run and block being easily and quickly accessible.  That game is lightning fast..  far faster than any SF game..  requiring very quick reflexes at times.

 
 And finally, when many people play games from their past..  they want to play correctly.. and not with some hack.  For example..  Playing Defender with an 8 way joystick without a reverse button... doesnt feel right.  Playing Asteroids Deluxe with a joystick, without the full leaf button setup... also feels wrong.   Sometimes these hacks can give you an edge... and to a fan of these games.. they dont want that 'cheat' methodology.    Other times, hacks can be far more cumbersome, making it harder to play accurately..  and ticking off a good player, due to their inability to get the game to do what they can easily do on the real controls.

 There is also the level of comfort involved.. as well as the look and feel.  Which is why many will have at least one real Leaf button on their CP...  for far faster fire rates on classic games.  Theres also far less fatigue when using them in rapidfire games.. compared to microswitches.

 Im being genuine with my advice and ideas.  But do as you please.  Its your hardware, and your decision to cripple your experience.. rather than rise to the challenges, with time and efforts.

 If its mere construction time on sellable builds.. then simply charge more, for your additional time and efforts.

 You cant force people to cripple their game experience..  and expect them to be happy about it.   But, you always have the option of not accepting their orders too.

 Furthermore, as much as Malenko may find foot controls laughable..   they are used regularly in various fields and games.  Everything from Driving vechicles, to running mechanical presses / machines,  sewing machines, organs, guitar pedals, flight controls, and far more.

 And yes.. it would be interesting (I have thought about it), to make a kick/punch system for game input.  It would give quite the workout.  heh    I believe its been done.. by a few different companies in different methodologies.

 (Plus.. physical contact is far more fun than swinging a controller through the air in empty space.. and never registering any actual feedback + poor control to boot)

 +11  for the  Gymkata  clip         I remember seeing that Ages ago as a kid.
Cheesy and unrealistic,but it was fun back then.  Not sure I could say the same now.  Experience in combat really changes your perspective and enjoyment levels of things like this.

Dave, your entitled to your Opinion..  But your Opinions do not suit everyone.

 1) Theres no reason why one cant put a spinner on a control panel.  Either on top, or on the very Front of the cabinet, for use as a driving machine, without getting in the way of joystick gaming.

 2)  Pedals can easily be slid in and out of a pull out or flip down section of the cabinet.

 3)  Multiple panels means more Money, times, energy, and storage space.  More encoders. More wire.  More soldiering. More artwork costs.  More chance of damages during swaps.  More time wasted changing panels instead of playing games.   As well as poor connector issues that tend to be a hassle + will likely break over time.. and have to be re-wired.

 4)  Not everyone has the Space to house multiple cabinets... let alone a rack of specialty control panels.

 5)  Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without.

 6)  While Themeing can be nice...  it doesnt make things play better... and the extra money spent in artwork, could better be used to by more controllers, or other desired things in life.  Even pay the bills.   Looks are not the highest priority on  "everyone's"  list... even if they are on YOURS.   

 (Also note, that considering how many cabs Ive seen that have changed and rebuilt over time.. and all that artwork was flushed...  its often been a waste.   And..  many of the theme's have turned out atrocious, due to the fact that not everyone is a great artist.  Poor color choices, arrangements, non-matching patchworked clip-art + mixed with other styles and non matched color palettes..      I tend not to say anything, because its their creations.. but inside, Im "face-palming" )


 The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

 As for the rest..  Im not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the positives and negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls... as well as ideas on maintaining them, using such things as smaller buttons all around.  Ive also stated that its my opinion that you cant play certain games well without the right controls.

 But I also offered solutions to try, as well as unique ideas and methods.  For example, its great to own a Discs of Tron spinner.. but not everyone can afford and or find one.  Yet a pedal set could make the game very playable with a standard set of generic / cheap controls.


 Nighty Night.

I sternly believe this thread needs more me, My repeated walls of text haven't done much to derail the topic, so I will try again. While the mere idea of foot controls shouldn't be taken seriously, and the fact I have personally said that using a button with your foot would cause fatigue ( http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131495.msg1348660.html#msg1348660 ) I am CHOOSING to contradict myself for the sake of arguing! I also believe that making the spacing super tight on a 6 button set up makes the button count less, while having smaller buttons doesn't, unless they are all smaller. Yes 6 smaller buttons means there are less than 6 buttons on the panel. If you don't agree you are wrong. X2 says so. Please do note, I'm double spacing every line of my replies just to make the wall of text more daunting and less likely to be read. I will once again reiterate that SF needs 6 buttons and despite hating the guy I'm going to secretly agree with Malenko that MK3 would be pretty much impossible to play. I shall make up for agreeing with him about MK3 by stating other uses for a foot pedal that actually make sense and somehow imply that he said you should never use your feet for anything, even walking! I'll also mention people using an 8 way on defender even though it literally has nothing to do with this discussion, also leaf switches!

Now onto opinions... I'm lucky enough to have all my opinions be fact, so my opinion actually means something. Mounting a spinner so its completely vertical is brilliant and arcade makers really missed the boat by not doing it on any games. Aesthetically speaking flip out pedals, crotch spinners, bingo ball dispensers, and tiny buttons are superior to anything else you can do on your MAME cab, also the cab should be black with a blank marquee. Themes are useless. Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without, that's MY JOB!  I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls, and Ive scorned anyone for doing what the OP wanted and suggested work arounds. He will have at least 6 buttons on his panel, it is the X2 mandate!

/translation

[Le Chuck]

I have three points.

1) Gymkata is probably the raddest movie evar made.
b) I'm going to design a new button, what I'm calling the Xzibit, it's going to be concentric rings.  Way I see it I should only need two Xzibit buttons to have six inputs. 

[Hoopz]

I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

[yotsuya]

I have three points.

1) Gymkata is probably the raddest movie evar made.
b) I'm going to design a new button, what I'm calling the Xzibit, it's going to be concentric rings.  Way I see it I should only need two Xzibit buttons to have six inputs.

1. Gymkata, American Ninja, The Last Dragon... the 80s were a wonderful time for Stupid American Kung-Fu Flix.

2. Throw two of these bad boys on your CP, and you can play 6-button SFII. BAM!!! Problem solved!

[Le Chuck]

Gah!  Kill it with fire!!!

[Malenko]

I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

Worst part is actually having to read his posts. Best part is the content is exactly the same.

[DaveMMR]

I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

+1 - best translation ever! 

[Vigo]

The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. So much so that I will probably implement it in my next machine. I only used the term shoulder button because it easy way to allow people to visualize without drawing a picture.  Two little buttons happily on top and easy to get to,  but out of the way enough that they won't accidentally be mashed silly.

What it is closer to is a specialty button, like those commonly found in many classic arcade games. Whether it was a button for the torpedo, death blossom, potion, supermove that drains health or mega-nuke-grenade, it was common practice to have a button that was separated from the fray of the routine button mashing, because it needed to be used deliberately and sparingly. I commonly find it an issue when playing a game with X number of buttons, and while getting acclimated to the game, end up accidentally using up my specialty function simply trying to figure out what button does what. This would solve that problem handily.

The only reason I mentioned SNES was an afterthought. SNES games translate horribly to an arcade control panel in my opinion. There are 4 main buttons, and two shoulder buttons, but I never found a way to distribute them on a standard 6 button layout that made sense to me. Add two buttons on top, problem solved.

Oh, and you used the word "arcade" incorrectly. You install buttons on an arcade machine. 

[lamprey]

Perhaps I'm missing the point of this thread, but as LC said this is for him, so he can do whatever he wants with his crotch, errr, I mean control panel.

If you really want to play MK, et el, then I don't know why you wouldn't put the required number of buttons. This is probably nothing you don't already know, but when I was planning my CP I made a spread sheet of all the games I wanted to play and their controls so I could see what compromises I'd have to make, if any. I'm only interested in MAME and as far as buttons go, it turns out that, in my list, a little over 300 games use 4 or less buttons. Where as 25 used 5-6. Of those that use 5 or more it turns out there are some I wanted to play like Asteroids. So, I decided to go with a 7 button layout (woot for the Frankenpanel  ).

I get that the current trend is away from the "frankenpanel." But, in all honesty, it works for the majority of games out there. As other have said, if you really don't want all the buttons then you can either make that trade off or tailor your panel to a particular game or set of games you want.

Cheers!

[DaveMMR]

This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

[Le Chuck]

Point of the thread was more along the lines of, "how can I shave the number of buttons and still be able to play X, Y, and Z, at a casual mediocre level?"  Creative button assignments in mame and the like. 

To be honest tho, I enjoy the direction this has taken much more 

This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

I've got one of those "make any thing conductive a button" kits from kickstarter.  The one where they played chopsticks on a bunch of bananas.  Would be perfect for this.  I recommend we change to KI tho because X2 said it's the deepest game out there or something. 

[yotsuya]

Point of the thread was more along the lines of, "how can I shave the number of buttons and still be able to play X, Y, and Z, at a casual mediocre level?"  Creative button assignments in mame and the like. 

To be honest tho, I enjoy the direction this has taken much more 

This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

I've got one of those "make any thing conductive a button" kits from kickstarter.  The one where they played chopsticks on a bunch of bananas.  Would be perfect for this.  I recommend we change to KI tho because X2 said it's the deepest game out there or something.

Seconded. Extra points if you can incorporate a crotch spinner/button or a RealDoll^TM.

[Xiaou2]

Feel the Love   

 Didnt hit enter from last break period...  so here it is...

  Anyway, I think you're missing the point of the thread. I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.

 My thought was that he didnt want to do all that customized effort towards his clients.

 As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)

 And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills.  (And if your so lazy that you place your pot belly on the CP... resting all your mass forwards..  then you might think to lay off the junk food for a while...  maybe build an interactive punch / kick mame controller       


 Concentric buttons?   I think it would be interesting...  but honestly, I think it would be very clumsy.   It would be hard to hit the proper area without looking.   And its still really multiple buttons.   What about a telephone dialpad     Thats one assembly, and has like 12 buttons in a small space.  Or a Keyboard number pad... 

While the mere idea of foot controls shouldn't be taken seriously, and the fact I have personally said that using a button with your foot would cause fatigue

 I did say it would cause fatigue, and reasons why not to use a non 6 button layout.. but I also gave optional ideas, based on his   This isnt contradictory. 


 Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.

[lilshawn]

put 4 buttons....sacrifice a move or 2 for some games...have extras for others.

or

put the maximum amount of buttons needed for the particular series of games you wish to play.

/thread.

also, the shoulder buttons on the SNES where awesome and perfectly placed It was just required they were implemented properly for the game. for SF2, no. i usually remapped the hk hp to something else and had the weak move on them because you can't push them fast (like for chung-li's kick, e.honda's slap, etc) but for a game like F-Zero, using them as hard turn/shallow turn modifiers was perfect for them. but at the same time, that same implementation does not translate to the SNES advantage (or an arcade control for that matter) well.

do waht you like, like what you do. if you try it and it doesn't work... hey, you tried

[DaveMMR]

*sigh...*

As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)

Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.

Do you not get it has nothing to do with space and everything to do with aesthetics? I mean maybe I misread it but, in the 10 years on these boards, I remember no one having a problem finding room for two extra columns of buttons.

And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills. 

I'm a tall guy. Everything ends up in my crotch eventually.

Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.

Hey, there's a vertically mounted dial on my stereo and my old TV and my oscillating fan so IT MUST be perfectly acceptable to put one on an arcade cab.

Let's get serious for a second - there's a difference between a machine made for a driving game and one where it looks like someone slapped a wheel on to the front of a standard panel as an afterthought. It looks uncomfortable and weird and ugly. I could be wrong about the uncomfortable part but it's a fair assumption.  If you simply must have a steering wheel and a fighter setup - just make the panels interchangable or build another cab. And don't moan about "the complex wiring" or "the expense of cutting another piece of wood" or "buying another CPO" or "not having the space". Just do it or do without. Don't play Street Fighter with rotatory controls jamming you in the nether region.* 

And if you're just using it as a spinner - put that on the panel.  They do not take up all that much space these days.

(*Just my opinion  )

EDIT: One more thing - at what point in this thread about button count and popular fighting games did the topic of spinners (and placement thereof) enter the mix?!  Ugh... my head hurts...
 

[Malenko]

Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.

Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*

[Malenko]

I'd rather translate your reply, but I think for a change I'll post X2 style instead PREPARE THE WALL OF TEXT!

I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)

No, he wants to know if there's a way to play street fighter and the like with 4 buttons.

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.

Please, leave us out of your fantasies. Again, the point of this thread was to kinda brain storm ideas and figure out all the draw backs of a 4 button panel.

My thought was that he didnt want to do all that customized effort towards his clients.

Then -1 to your reading comprehension. He never mentioned doing this to any of his clients panels. Ever.

As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)

No one is saying its any more or less cluttered, just that it is more or less irrelevant.

And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills.  (And if your so lazy that you place your pot belly on the CP... resting all your mass forwards..  then you might think to lay off the junk food for a while...  maybe build an interactive punch / kick mame controller       

First off, "you're" . Secondly, maybe my boner has a boner when I'm rippin Sub Zero's head off?

Concentric buttons?   I think it would be interesting...  but honestly, I think it would be very clumsy.   It would be hard to hit the proper area without looking.   And its still really multiple buttons.   What about a telephone dialpad     Thats one assembly, and has like 12 buttons in a small space.  Or a Keyboard number pad... 

Concentric buttons was a corny joke, please dont waste brain power thinkin about it. The number pad worked great on the Jaguar.

Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.

My home theater system has a touch pad for volume control. But what exactly does a can opener have to do with 4 buttons for fighting games?

[shponglefan]

Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.

Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*

[DaveMMR]

Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*

I don't know what is more frightening: that or the fact you attributed some of my quotes to Xiaou. I mean, do we both sound alike? I guess if I take a step back and look objectively it's quite possible I'm no different... perhaps...?

I'm just very scared right now*. 

I just don't know why people can't play fighters** by mashing their palm frantically on the buttons like I do - whether they have four or fourteen buttons or foot pedals! I'd be able to sleep tonight.

(*and also Burger King  )
(**not Killer Instinct, obviously)

[Malenko]

Quoting the wrong person like that is just part of posting in the X2 shall in toe stab style, don't be scared

[DaveMMR]

Quoting the wrong person like that is just part of posting in the X2 shall in toe stab style, don't be scared

Oh thank goodness... 

As to Le Chuck's original issue:
How about pressure sensitive buttons? Like PS2 (and above) has? Or the original Street Fighter? Three levels of pressure per button and you can have 12 virtual buttons per player with only four physical buttons. (Is such a thing possible for arcade buttons?)

[Xiaou2]

Well, I cant reply too all this lunacy.  Its a waste of time really.

  Its actually funny, because several people have attempted to guess the posters reasoning.. yet his text really does Not specify much of any reasoning.   Lets re-read:

The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me. 

 Why does this bother you?

 - Space?
 - Costs?
 - Construction Time / Effort?
 - Other???   For most helpful answers, please insert Reason: __________________________

Some builds I don't put that many for sure and customers that want to play the fighters on the build expect a MK or SFII layout - and the customer is always/mostly somewhat rightish so that's not what this is about.

 So.. he mentions making cabs / build for SALE.

 The way it reads to me... is that he is building a lot of stuff without pre-consultation or buyer commitment.   After completion, whether it once had been for him personally...  and or for mere fun in building..   he later tries to sell these said creations... only to get pestered into adding more buttons from said fans/customers...   Which is a real nightmare to undo & modify these creations... to seal the deal.

 But then the quoted text below, pops up.. and sorta negates the above.   Well..  it more or less changes his intent...

This is about me, this guy.  This guy is tired of so many damn buttons.  Four button panels would be ideal

 Again, we do not have a reason why for buttons is ideal?

 - Looks?
 - Space?
 - Construction time / energy
 - Costs?
 - A combination???

- but how do I still get my SF/MvsC/MK fix?  I've thought about just eliminating WP/WK and going M and H, I'm not a competition player by any means but I don't want to lose valuable functionality.

 This is very straight forward:

 1) Wants to play good... without any loss of  "valuable" functionality.
 2) Isnt a professional tournament fighter.  Doesnt need a 20part joystick hack PDF.  Convex buttons are questionable.
 3) Likes to Whine.  And or Wine.

 The question is impossible to answer...  Partly because the intentions are not there.   What constitutes value of function to this person?

 1)  Can live with only using kicks and no punches allowed?
 2)  Can live without blocking, running, and combos?
 3)  Can live without jumping? Up and down are kick and punch.

 Many fighting games make use of two or three buttons pressed at the same time.  So using two buttons to form a 3rd, isnt going to work for these cases.    In Tekken3..  precise order and timing of the button presses.. can change the moves drastically.   In KI,  theres press and holds...  so timing is out for a 3rd ..  not to mention, many games are too fast for that anyways.   KI also makes more use of the quick/low  buttons that a lot of other fighters.   Many of the latter Capcom variants use combos.. so quicks are also used in them extensively too.

 I could keep on going with what functionality you lose...   but that doesnt really change the facts.   The fact is that we dont know what Values he cares if he loses.  If any.

I know on SFIV you can pretty much clean up with three buttons (due to the combination "cheats").

 This says he may be a cheater.      But it does not add anything to the equation.

 If we say that 15% of all the fighters allow you to beat some major bass guitar, with only 3 buttons... What about the 85% that dont?
..
 

So...anybody done this, or something similar?  I've thought about going through move lists and seeing what can be eliminated and try to whittle down the requirement, maybe use SFII, MvsC, and MKII as the baseline set; but all I've done is think about it.

 So, here is the Final clue...

 Hes thought about whittleing down game moves on 3 fighters..  but never even started to try to assemble the spreadsheet...

 He also does not specify which games should or should not be included.   Only a few games hes thought about as a 'Starter'.   Which doesnt help... because if you added two more games on there that react differently..  then the whole effort of trying to guess what is "Valuable"  and then make a 20 page spreadsheet on games you Guess are the ones he would want to play... is going to get scrapped anyways.

 
 Which to me,  via his own words...  meant:   I want to play a lot of fighters without any loss in buttkickin..  but only have 4 hand tap buttons...  rather than 6.


  To me, any loss in control is a loss of Valuable functionality...   So the only other option after that is... alternative control options.. such as foot pedals...

[Malenko]

says this:

Well, I cant reply too all this lunacy.  Its a waste of time really.

Then posts a wall of text

[DaveMMR]

beat some major bass guitar

[Le Chuck]

So.. he mentions making cabs / build for SALE.

 The way it reads to me... is that he is building a lot of stuff without pre-consultation or buyer commitment.   After completion, whether it once had been for him personally...  and or for mere fun in building..   he later tries to sell these said creations... only to get pestered into adding more buttons from said fans/customers...   Which is a real nightmare to undo & modify these creations... to seal the deal.

Nope.  Not ever even once.  I have never built anything for personal use and then sold it.  Every cab I have built for a customer has been to customer spec.  If I didn't like their design I would advise them as to why but in the end it's their cash and they get what they want even if they aren't "right".  You are right that everything I build for me is about me and the fun of building. 

I've never built generic builds and then sought a buyer.  I might do that one day, but haven't yet.  Too much other stuff to do. 

Reason for the four buttons:  Four fingers.  Don't like using my thumb so not five.  Don't want pedals, dials, whozits, whatzits, or gizmos.  Four makes sense.  Four.  Four crates, four stones!  Not one or two or three but four!

[Trip]

I love my cabinet and it's mess of buttons and other BS.  I have 7 buttons for players 1 and 2.  I have a dedicated 4 way with 3 buttons.  Trackball and spinner.  P3 and 4 have 4 buttons.  Plus start/coin for every player and 3 menu buttons.  I have a lot of crap on my control panel and I even had the disgusting thought to put RGBs all over everything too.  It's just ugly.   

I know one thing though, kids to grandparents see it and want to play it.  They don't care that there is too many buttons, every single one of them can find the game they want to play and have the controls to do it.  My friends can play Samuari Showdown/MK/SF2 with all the buttons, my parents can play donkey kong and pac man, everyone enjoys drunken Golden Tee.  I have had people waiting in line to join a game of TMNT with all four spots going at it.

I have actually thought about building another and I would probably build another 4 player cp with the same setup, but do a curved fighter setup instead of the straight across button setup I have now.   

[eds1275]

everyone enjoys drunken Golden Tee.

yes they do!

Although I don't share the hate for Xiaou2, I just roll my eyes and don't read any of it because he quotes people but removes the information as to who said what and I'm not about to go scrolling through to find out if I think it was taken out of context.

[Xiaou2]

Reason for the four buttons:  Four fingers.  Don't like using my thumb so not five.  Don't want pedals, dials, whozits, whatzits, or gizmos.  Four makes sense.  Four.  Four crates, four stones!  Not one or two or three but four!

 Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.

 I seriously doubt I could span 4 arcade buttons on a single horizontal line..  let alone a typical woman or childrens hand.

 However, you can span 3 buttons quite easily from on a horizontal line, so long as you dont have ridiculous button space gap.
Which is why the dual triad rows came into existance... and have stuck ever since.

 Furthermore, on when thinking back to the days of the Sega Genesis..  I preferred its linear button layout.   It was so easy to slide the thumb from center to either side.. to change weapons, turbo boost, etc...

 Edit:

 Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.

[yotsuya]

Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.

[dgame]

[Vigo]

Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.

Its called an arc. It would be similar to a neo geo layout. Who said all fingers need to be resting on buttons? I personally like to tilt my pinky in when using it. Sorry if that is not competitive enough for you....

Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.

You underestimate Le Chuck's pinkies. You may have a Shaolin toe Stab, but Le Chuck has the Eagle Claw Pinky Jab.

[Le Chuck]

The pinky is so a finger!  All the fingers have names you numbnuts: index, ring, pinky, g-spot go getter, see - named.  All of them.  The thumb isn't a finger because it's short a point of articulation.  Also, I can so span four buttons.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Four.  foooooourr!  Four is the magic number.  Four in a line.  Not matrixed out.  I hate the matrix.  It's the first non prime number for chrissakes (except for one which by strictest definition is neither prime nor composite but is in fact the loneliest number)

My years of doing sign language have given me super human dexterity.  My pinky FINGER is probably worth at least two of your other fingers.  When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.  This isn't built for typical wooden children.  This is built for me!   The number of buttons is in fact too damn high!

Now please excuse me while I utilize my Eagle Claw Pinky Jab to open this can of sprite. 

[yotsuya]

The pinky is so a finger!  All the fingers have names you numbnuts: index, ring, pinky, g-spot go getter, see - named.  All of them.  The thumb isn't a finger because it's short a point of articulation.  Also, I can so span four buttons.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Four.  foooooourr!  Four is the magic number.  Four in a line.  Not matrixed out.  I hate the matrix.  It's the first non prime number for chrissakes (except for one which by strictest definition is neither prime nor composite but is in fact the loneliest number)

My years of doing sign language have given me super human dexterity.  My pinky FINGER is probably worth at least two of your other fingers.  When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.  This isn't built for typical wooden children.  This is built for me!   The number of buttons is in fact too damn high!

Now please excuse me while I utilize my Eagle Claw Pinky Jab to open this can of sprite.

[Vigo]

When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk. 

[lilshawn]

When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk. 

confirmed - X2 is a simpsons character....but which one...

[eds1275]

comic book guy?

   My pinky is hardcore. I use it all the time when I play arcade games.

[Generic Eric]

When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk. 

confirmed - X2 is a simpsons character....but which one...

[mgb]

I was only able to fit four buttons per player on my cab and even at that, only in diamond patterns.
I like SF and all but for me it came down to I simply couldn't fit the buttons so I rely on the NeoGeo fighters. I think there's a great selection there and the competitions just as much fun.
I'm very much just a casual player of fighters and I agree that just doing without the light jab and kick may be the best way to go with four buttons.

[Xiaou2]

Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.

Its called an arc. It would be similar to a neo geo layout. Who said all fingers need to be resting on buttons? I personally like to tilt my pinky in when using it. Sorry if that is not competitive enough for you....

Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.

You underestimate Le Chuck's pinkies. You may have a Shaolin toe Stab, but Le Chuck has the Eagle Claw Pinky Jab.

 Your probably using those wretched flat topped or convex buttons.   These no reason to argue with you..   That would be like trying to argue with a person whom thinks Beats Pro  headphones are Audiophile /  High Fidelity.

[lamprey]

Your probably using those wretched flat topped or convex buttons.   These no reason to argue with you..   That would be like trying to argue with a person whom thinks Beats Pro  headphones are Audiophile /  High Fidelity.

I almost feel like it is a game for you to see how much conversational terrorism you can fit into a post. So, now I too make a game of it. If I can identify more than 3 kinds of conversational terrorism in a post I yell out "X2!!!" and I win!

For those that want to play at home, here is a link that might help http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html