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Author Topic: Too many buttons!  (Read 20881 times)

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Le Chuck

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Too many buttons!
« on: May 12, 2014, 08:22:03 am »
The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me.  Some builds I don't put that many for sure and customers that want to play the fighters on the build expect a MK or SFII layout - and the customer is always/mostly somewhat rightish so that's not what this is about. 

This is about me, this guy.  This guy is tired of so many damn buttons.  Four button panels would be ideal - but how do I still get my SF/MvsC/MK fix?  I've thought about just eliminating WP/WK and going M and H, I'm not a competition player by any means but I don't want to lose valuable functionality.  I know on SFIV you can pretty much clean up with three buttons (due to the combination "cheats").

So...anybody done this, or something similar?  I've thought about going through move lists and seeing what can be eliminated and try to whittle down the requirement, maybe use SFII, MvsC, and MKII as the baseline set; but all I've done is think about it. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 09:02:58 am »
I don't have an answer for you but I agree. I put six buttons on my cp just in case we wanted to play SF.  But the reality is I really prefer SF on the SNES so I doubt it will get a lot of play.  In the end I did ditch the seventh button that was in my original design having never been a big Neo Geo fan. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 09:14:48 am »
crude example:

for street fighter, in mame , set button 1 as weak punch, set button 2 as medium punch, set fierce punch as button 1 + button 2


theoretically that will work, but its not without its own draw backs, like you'd be unable to do Zangief's lariat and any other moves that require all 3 punches. I guess you could shoe horn in some of the early SF gamesbut I wouldnt make a 4 button panel with SF in mind. Eliminating any button would be heaps of trouble for the VS series, it affects tags, supers, combos, and cross over supers. It'd be tough to play MKII missing a punch, a kick, or most importantly block.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 09:29:00 am »
crude example:

for street fighter, in mame , set button 1 as weak punch, set button 2 as medium punch, set fierce punch as button 1 + button 2


theoretically that will work, but its not without its own draw backs, like you'd be unable to do Zangief's lariat and any other moves that require all 3 punches. I guess you could shoe horn in some of the early SF gamesbut I wouldnt make a 4 button panel with SF in mind. Eliminating any button would be heaps of trouble for the VS series, it affects tags, supers, combos, and cross over supers. It'd be tough to play MKII missing a punch, a kick, or most importantly block.

Yeah, the SF moves are almost the easiest to shoehorn.  The vs really makes use of all six to get the range of combos/tags/etc like you said.  If I was building a dedicated fighter it'd need the full tally but for occasional play I wonder if I can find that sweet spot of eliminating some weak combos in favor of others that would let me get the button count down. 

In MK how much would I lose if I combo'd the block?  LP/LK for instance...or all four at once?

I don't have an answer for you but I agree. I put six buttons on my cp just in case we wanted to play SF.  But the reality is I really prefer SF on the SNES so I doubt it will get a lot of play.  In the end I did ditch the seventh button that was in my original design having never been a big Neo Geo fan. 

I love the SNK games which is why 4 is such a sweet spot for me, but I get crazy hankerings for fighters sometimes, not enough for a dedicated fighter cab tho and I am sick of adding it on just for the times when I get the itch.   

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 10:02:17 am »
MK1 would be playable of all 4 buttons equalled block , only moves you'd lose would be Johnny cages nut punch and Sonya's leg grab

MKII  would be a lot trickier and UMK3 would be extremely difficult
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 10:24:54 am »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 10:38:32 am »
I think you must just stop playing Street Fighter. You didn't specify which, but my favs are the alphas and MVC - and you can't do the super jumps or power moves without the buttons.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 10:40:48 am »
BTW, I hear you, LC. I'd go four buttons on my main MAME as well, but there's **just** enough friends and family that like SF and MK that I have to keep them on. Would never do 7 or 8, though. If I want to play console games, I'll plug in a console controller.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 11:17:22 am »
I think it REALLY depends on whether it's a horizontal or vertical setup.  For horizontal I vote 6 buttons.  For Vertical, no more than 3.  ( 2 should suffice for classics, but some shmups require 3 ).

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 11:25:50 am »
BTW, I hear you, LC. I'd go four buttons on my main MAME as well, but there's **just** enough friends and family that like SF and MK that I have to keep them on. Would never do 7 or 8, though. If I want to play console games, I'll plug in a console controller.
7 has been a hassled.  Used a controller.

I think this realization is part of the journey.  Discovering the truth by doing despite how obvious the proof may be.

*shrug*

Maybe, one day I'll have need for a fighter cab.  This cab right know though, I'm gonna redrill my CP.  7 buttons are 3 too many.


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 11:54:18 am »
As a big Capcom fighting game fan, I would want all 6 buttons in there.  They are needed especially to have full control over all the special moves.  For example, it's nice to be able to dictate the height of Guile's flash kick or speed of Ryu/Ken's hadoukens, etc.

Personally, I really like the 7 button Capcom/Neo-Geo hybrid layout.

But 4 buttons will still get you 90% of games and be functional for Capcom fighters, just not ideal.  To each their own.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 11:57:50 am by shponglefan »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 12:04:55 pm »
I think you must just stop playing Street Fighter. You didn't specify which, but my favs are the alphas and MVC - and you can't do the super jumps or power moves without the buttons.

Super Jump can also be done by moving the stick down then up quickly with no charge.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2014, 12:46:13 pm »
One of my Fav. fighters is Killer Instinct.   Its a game that a lot of people don't 'get'...  unless they are at first familiar with Street Fighter II... and even then, the new combo system can take a little to understand.  But once you do get it... its so much more rewarding than most, if not all, other fighters.   One reason being.. is the shear freedom of combo creations.  Especially when you factor in 'broken-combos' (combos without  "auto-hit specials"  in them)

 To make things even more interesting..  they added some bonus stuff... such as holding down a button while doing a combo... and release that button as an 'ender'..   which will increase the speed of the ender, as well as the damage levels.  Its not easy to do.. but its quite awesome.. especially if you have Shadow-Power.

 You simply could not control this game without all 6 buttons.   Especially if you wanted to do things like the special tricks.


 Also, anyone whom plays fighters, isn't going to want a compromise.  For example, you could program a button to do a special move, or an automatic combination... but that's 'cheating'.   The thing is.. the games balance depends on things like the time it actually takes to do the move with the stick and buttons..  as well as the skill required in the exact timing while under pressure.

 So, in short, its Not too many buttons.   Its the exact amount needed to get the job done right.


 Imagine if you had to fly a plane..  but someone complained there were too many gauges, and controls.   Do you rip them all out because of 'clutter'  ?    I think not.

 Yes, the customer Is always right... unless they are asking for a curved button layout  :P

---

 If you don't mind half-***ing it for yourself... make foot buttons for the 'high-power' buttons.  Your foot wont be nearly as fast or have the precision of your fingers.. but maybe it would be interesting regardless.

 Similarly, block  &  run  buttons in MK's  could be used like this as well.
Though probably would be way too slow in reaction time to be useful...

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2014, 01:21:48 pm »
One of my Fav. fighters is Killer Instinct.   Its a game that a lot of people don't 'get'...  unless they are at first familiar with Street Fighter II... and even then, the new combo system can take a little to understand.  But once you do get it... its so much more rewarding than most, if not all, other fighters.   One reason being.. is the shear freedom of combo creations.  Especially when you factor in 'broken-combos' (combos without  "auto-hit specials"  in them)

 To make things even more interesting..  they added some bonus stuff... such as holding down a button while doing a combo... and release that button as an 'ender'..   which will increase the speed of the ender, as well as the damage levels.  Its not easy to do.. but its quite awesome.. especially if you have Shadow-Power.

 You simply could not control this game without all 6 buttons.   Especially if you wanted to do things like the special tricks.


 Also, anyone whom plays fighters, isn't going to want a compromise.  For example, you could program a button to do a special move, or an automatic combination... but that's 'cheating'.   The thing is.. the games balance depends on things like the time it actually takes to do the move with the stick and buttons..  as well as the skill required in the exact timing while under pressure.

 So, in short, its Not too many buttons.   Its the exact amount needed to get the job done right.


 Imagine if you had to fly a plane..  but someone complained there were too many gauges, and controls.   Do you rip them all out because of 'clutter'  ?    I think not.

 Yes, the customer Is always right... unless they are asking for a curved button layout  :P

---

 If you don't mind half-***ing it for yourself... make foot buttons for the 'high-power' buttons.  Your foot wont be nearly as fast or have the precision of your fingers.. but maybe it would be interesting regardless.

 Similarly, block  &  run  buttons in MK's  could be used like this as well.
Though probably would be way too slow in reaction time to be useful...

Free translation / making it succinct :

Despite being specifically asked about SF and MK, I'm going to talk about Killer Instinct. 4 buttons wouldn't work for this game. LC, you are not allowed to have this opinion about there being too many buttons because I dictate that if you play fighting games you must like at least 6 buttons. Sorry, not sorry. In an attempt to be funny, I will suggest you put buttons near your feet and use those instead of having them on your actual control panel. In an effort to make my post more verbose I will also suggest the SF kick buttons near your feet could be used for running and blocking for Mortal Kombat, see its funny cause you kick and run with your feet. Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2014, 02:32:47 pm »
I totally agree that 6 buttons is too many. Let the 4 button Renaissance begin!

Curious, any idea on the list of non-fighter games "lost" when going to 4 buttons?

Maybe you can make an arcade equivalent of shoulder buttons. Put a couple smaller buttons (20-25mm) above your regular controls for those certain special use situations. Moving buttons 5+6 out of the way and giving them less real estate might conquer the awkward feeling you get when playing Gauntlet with 6 buttons. Might make playing the occasional SNES game on your machine more fun as well.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:34:29 pm by Vigo »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2014, 02:47:46 pm »
Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2014, 02:49:29 pm »
Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.

That cab better be titled "The Cock-blocker"

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2014, 02:50:21 pm »
Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.

That cab better be titled "The Cock-blocker"

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2014, 03:44:16 pm »
For Mortal Kombat on a 4 button panel, I just remapped Start -> Block.

For SF2, I just got rid of Jab and Short which nobody ever uses.  Ever.


 :cheers:


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2014, 04:12:47 pm »
I totally agree that 6 buttons is too many. Let the 4 button Renaissance begin!

Curious, any idea on the list of non-fighter games "lost" when going to 4 buttons?

There's a Capcom beat-em-up that uses 6 buttons... can't remember the name off hand...

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2014, 04:15:09 pm »
For SF2, I just got rid of Jab and Short which nobody ever uses.  Ever.

But then how will people ---smurfette--- slap opponents when playing as Chun-li?  ???

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2014, 04:17:25 pm »
I suggest you build a control panel with 12 buttons per, and then after a few months make it 6. It'll feel like you have less buttons.

6 buttons is where it's at?

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2014, 04:33:21 pm »
Forget about Street Fighter, MK, and Killer Instinct.

There are tons of Neo Geo fighting games that require only four buttons.

Or just build another cab :afro:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2014, 04:36:56 pm »
I think it REALLY depends on whether it's a horizontal or vertical setup.  For horizontal I vote 6 buttons.  For Vertical, no more than 3.  ( 2 should suffice for classics, but some shmups require 3 ).

I think this is the key.  Would mean having a couple of machines to cover the bases, but that's not usually a problem around here.

I know I'd hate to feel like playing a game, and then realize I didn't have enough buttons on a machine which was otherwise capable.  I also agree that 6 seems to be the sweet spot.  The only real reason for 7, is to replicate the NG layout with the bottom row and the offset lower button, but this can be accommodated just about as well with the 6 button layout.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2014, 04:39:02 pm »
What games actually use all 8 buttons? Or is it more of putting 4 in a row and just having the room for 4 buttons below it?


Was looking at slagcoin button layouts and was curious ( as I'm trying to figure button layout for bartop).

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2014, 05:02:11 pm »
You only need 8 buttons if you are going to play newer console games - then you'll spend half your time cussing yourself out because it was a bad idea. I'm sorry, but on the whole, it just doesn't translate well to arcade controllers.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2014, 05:16:53 pm »
What games actually use all 8 buttons?

The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2014, 05:24:45 pm »
I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2014, 05:58:06 pm »
I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

If you took MY advice, you could invest in a Real DollTM and see where that takes you.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2014, 06:02:33 pm »
What games actually use all 8 buttons? Or is it more of putting 4 in a row and just having the room for 4 buttons below it?


Was looking at slagcoin button layouts and was curious ( as I'm trying to figure button layout for bartop).

slagcoin is geared toward the fightstick crowd.
Commercially available fightsicks and fightpads usually have 8 buttons.
This is the accepted standard on modern console or Steam games.

While you can get by with only 6 on all the current PC fighters, some require you to have all 8 mapped before it will let you exit the remapping screen.
Games like Injustice incorporate "quick time events" that require you to press a particular button when prompted.
I don't know if it utilizes all 8, but future games might.  It sucks playing through those when you're buttons aren't labeled.

It drives me crazy how often seemingly simple games on Steam will require an absurd number of buttons.
Instead of having one action button, you've got separate buttons to pick up objects, talk, hack and slash.
If a platformer or hack 'n slash game requires more than 3 buttons, it's too much of a hassle.

For MAME or any other arcade emulator, you'll never need more than 6.

I currently have 7 for the sake of having the Neo-Geo four in a row.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2014, 06:05:13 pm »
I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

If you took MY advice, you could invest in a Real DollTM and see where that takes you.

Is the Star Wars speeder bike/R2D2 Pedestal/morphing CP build getting a Boonga Boonga controls added?


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2014, 07:26:30 pm »
@PBJ - I'll have to give that a shot, if I can get a good selection of tags and moves in MvsC I'll probably do that

@AlltheFighterFanBoizwonderingwhyI'ddothis - fighters are an occasional fling with me.  I know a few moves, can fight the AI, but don't care to be competitive against the hoes at home that know their craft.  Big ups to the tech fighters out there, that ain't me. 

@Yotsuya - I need a real doll.  Do they come in the male gender?  I'd like to get my wife into gaming as well. 

@BM - well naturally the speeder/R2/pedestal/morphing power ranger is getting boonga boonga controls added.  They go in between the tomtom drums and on top of the DDR pad.  Doi.    Also, totally with you on current designers over buttoning their games.  I really steer clear of games that need that many.  Sure there's a few out there worth the trouble (Parappa the Rappa I'm looking at you) but mostly it's more trouble than it's often worth. 

@Vigo - I can only think of probably 30 games I like that I need 6 buttons for (and thats including all the different SFs) but really I only enjoy maybe five of them regularly. 

@Randy - on my vert builds I max at three and it's glorious  ;D

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2014, 08:53:51 pm »
This thread needs more Gymkata:


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2014, 10:17:08 pm »
Quote
Free translation / making it succinct :

Despite being specifically asked about SF and MK, I'm going to talk about Killer Instinct. 4 buttons wouldn't work for this game. LC, you are not allowed to have this opinion about there being too many buttons because I dictate that if you play fighting games you must like at least 6 buttons. Sorry, not sorry. In an attempt to be funny, I will suggest you put buttons near your feet and use those instead of having them on your actual control panel. In an effort to make my post more verbose I will also suggest the SF kick buttons near your feet could be used for running and blocking for Mortal Kombat, see its funny cause you kick and run with your feet. Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

 I give it a 7 on the Drama Scale.  Good work.


 I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

 The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

 If you put smaller buttons in on only the two.. it will look odd, and may feel odd as well.

 If space is a concern..  Nake the button spacing tight.  Just barely enough so that you can still turn the button nuts without getting stuck.   You can even place the buttons closer in proximity to the stick.

 Or..   make or buy smaller buttons for All of the buttons.  In this way, you will have reduced space, same feel across the board, same finger positions for precise no-look activation, and a uniform look... as well as retained functionality.

 Ive always thought the standard arcade buttons were a little on the large size personally.


 As for SFII, Its been a long time since Ive played..  but I believe there were instances in combinations.. where you could use the quicks to good advantage.   However, its far more needed in other fighters.. such as KI.   Which, once you get used to its system of combos, is well worth the efforts and extra button space.

 As for MKIII..  I cant imagine trying to play it without the run and block being easily and quickly accessible.  That game is lightning fast..  far faster than any SF game..  requiring very quick reflexes at times.

 
 And finally, when many people play games from their past..  they want to play correctly.. and not with some hack.  For example..  Playing Defender with an 8 way joystick without a reverse button... doesnt feel right.  Playing Asteroids Deluxe with a joystick, without the full leaf button setup... also feels wrong.   Sometimes these hacks can give you an edge... and to a fan of these games.. they dont want that 'cheat' methodology.    Other times, hacks can be far more cumbersome, making it harder to play accurately..  and ticking off a good player, due to their inability to get the game to do what they can easily do on the real controls.

 There is also the level of comfort involved.. as well as the look and feel.  Which is why many will have at least one real Leaf button on their CP...  for far faster fire rates on classic games.  Theres also far less fatigue when using them in rapidfire games.. compared to microswitches.

 Im being genuine with my advice and ideas.  But do as you please.  Its your hardware, and your decision to cripple your experience.. rather than rise to the challenges, with time and efforts.

 If its mere construction time on sellable builds.. then simply charge more, for your additional time and efforts.

 You cant force people to cripple their game experience..  and expect them to be happy about it.   But, you always have the option of not accepting their orders too.

 Furthermore, as much as Malenko may find foot controls laughable..   they are used regularly in various fields and games.  Everything from Driving vechicles, to running mechanical presses / machines,  sewing machines, organs, guitar pedals, flight controls, and far more.

 And yes.. it would be interesting (I have thought about it), to make a kick/punch system for game input.  It would give quite the workout.  heh    I believe its been done.. by a few different companies in different methodologies.

 (Plus.. physical contact is far more fun than swinging a controller through the air in empty space.. and never registering any actual feedback + poor control to boot)

 +11  for the  Gymkata  clip    :)     I remember seeing that Ages ago as a kid.
Cheesy and unrealistic,but it was fun back then.  Not sure I could say the same now.  Experience in combat really changes your perspective and enjoyment levels of things like this.




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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2014, 10:39:32 pm »
I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

Or, three better options:
1. Build multiple panels you can swap.
2. Multiple cabinets with themed control sets.
3. Do without those games.

Because the best thing for someone who DOES NOT want clutter is to jam driving pedals on the front of the cabinet when there's no steering wheel.  (And if you have a steering wheel then (a) it's a driving cab, not a fighting-game cab - NON-ISSUE or (b) you have removable panels and one of them is a steering wheel and another one can be a fighter panel so again - NON-ISSUE.)

I'm sorry, I'm coming off mean but you're a stickler for proper controls and I can totally dig that so I can't understand why you're trying to sell him on the "play with your feet" method of saving space on the control panel. 

Sorry for that outburst - I need a nap.  Carry on.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 10:42:14 pm by DaveMMR »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2014, 11:21:14 pm »
I've chosen the second one (Multiple cabinets with themed control sets) and never turned back.  I'm even thinking of building a new widescreen cab for the newer Steam games and such and removing steam from my 4-player cab.
Stop by my Youtube channel and leave a comment:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2014, 12:17:00 am »
I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

Or, three better options:
1. Build multiple panels you can swap.
2. Multiple cabinets with themed control sets.
3. Do without those games.

Because the best thing for someone who DOES NOT want clutter is to jam driving pedals on the front of the cabinet when there's no steering wheel.  (And if you have a steering wheel then (a) it's a driving cab, not a fighting-game cab - NON-ISSUE or (b) you have removable panels and one of them is a steering wheel and another one can be a fighter panel so again - NON-ISSUE.)

I'm sorry, I'm coming off mean but you're a stickler for proper controls and I can totally dig that so I can't understand why you're trying to sell him on the "play with your feet" method of saving space on the control panel. 

Sorry for that outburst - I need a nap.  Carry on.

 Dave, your entitled to your Opinion..  But your Opinions do not suit everyone.

 1) Theres no reason why one cant put a spinner on a control panel.  Either on top, or on the very Front of the cabinet, for use as a driving machine, without getting in the way of joystick gaming.

 2)  Pedals can easily be slid in and out of a pull out or flip down section of the cabinet.

 3)  Multiple panels means more Money, times, energy, and storage space.  More encoders. More wire.  More soldiering. More artwork costs.  More chance of damages during swaps.  More time wasted changing panels instead of playing games.   As well as poor connector issues that tend to be a hassle + will likely break over time.. and have to be re-wired.

 4)  Not everyone has the Space to house multiple cabinets... let alone a rack of specialty control panels.

 5)  Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without.

 6)  While Themeing can be nice...  it doesnt make things play better... and the extra money spent in artwork, could better be used to by more controllers, or other desired things in life.  Even pay the bills.   Looks are not the highest priority on  "everyone's"  list... even if they are on YOURS.   

 (Also note, that considering how many cabs Ive seen that have changed and rebuilt over time.. and all that artwork was flushed...  its often been a waste.   And..  many of the theme's have turned out atrocious, due to the fact that not everyone is a great artist.  Poor color choices, arrangements, non-matching patchworked clip-art + mixed with other styles and non matched color palettes..      I tend not to say anything, because its their creations.. but inside, Im "face-palming" )


 The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

 As for the rest..  Im not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the positives and negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls... as well as ideas on maintaining them, using such things as smaller buttons all around.  Ive also stated that its my opinion that you cant play certain games well without the right controls.

 But I also offered solutions to try, as well as unique ideas and methods.  For example, its great to own a Discs of Tron spinner.. but not everyone can afford and or find one.  Yet a pedal set could make the game very playable with a standard set of generic / cheap controls.


 Nighty Night.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2014, 08:31:32 am »
The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

Heh, you really don't have to spend half your lecture reminding the class what opinions are. I understand what I say cannot be used as a source for Wikipedia articles. Thanks!

Anyway, I think you're missing the point of the thread. I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 08:40:11 am by DaveMMR »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2014, 08:44:08 am »
crotch spinners does not a clean panel make.
That'd a damn fine custom title for DaveMMR.   :cheers:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2014, 09:24:21 am »
crotch spinners does not a clean panel make.
That'd a damn fine custom title for DaveMMR.   :cheers:

 ;D

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2014, 10:08:59 am »
I give it a 7 on the Drama Scale.  Good work.
Drama? It was a zero. Funny? a 3.2


Another free translation time! This time its a DOUBLE, so scroll to the bottom of this wall of text after the quote!

I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

 The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

 If you put smaller buttons in on only the two.. it will look odd, and may feel odd as well.

 If space is a concern..  Nake the button spacing tight.  Just barely enough so that you can still turn the button nuts without getting stuck.   You can even place the buttons closer in proximity to the stick.

 Or..   make or buy smaller buttons for All of the buttons.  In this way, you will have reduced space, same feel across the board, same finger positions for precise no-look activation, and a uniform look... as well as retained functionality.

 Ive always thought the standard arcade buttons were a little on the large size personally.


 As for SFII, Its been a long time since Ive played..  but I believe there were instances in combinations.. where you could use the quicks to good advantage.   However, its far more needed in other fighters.. such as KI.   Which, once you get used to its system of combos, is well worth the efforts and extra button space.

 As for MKIII..  I cant imagine trying to play it without the run and block being easily and quickly accessible.  That game is lightning fast..  far faster than any SF game..  requiring very quick reflexes at times.

 
 And finally, when many people play games from their past..  they want to play correctly.. and not with some hack.  For example..  Playing Defender with an 8 way joystick without a reverse button... doesnt feel right.  Playing Asteroids Deluxe with a joystick, without the full leaf button setup... also feels wrong.   Sometimes these hacks can give you an edge... and to a fan of these games.. they dont want that 'cheat' methodology.    Other times, hacks can be far more cumbersome, making it harder to play accurately..  and ticking off a good player, due to their inability to get the game to do what they can easily do on the real controls.

 There is also the level of comfort involved.. as well as the look and feel.  Which is why many will have at least one real Leaf button on their CP...  for far faster fire rates on classic games.  Theres also far less fatigue when using them in rapidfire games.. compared to microswitches.

 Im being genuine with my advice and ideas.  But do as you please.  Its your hardware, and your decision to cripple your experience.. rather than rise to the challenges, with time and efforts.

 If its mere construction time on sellable builds.. then simply charge more, for your additional time and efforts.

 You cant force people to cripple their game experience..  and expect them to be happy about it.   But, you always have the option of not accepting their orders too.

 Furthermore, as much as Malenko may find foot controls laughable..   they are used regularly in various fields and games.  Everything from Driving vechicles, to running mechanical presses / machines,  sewing machines, organs, guitar pedals, flight controls, and far more.

 And yes.. it would be interesting (I have thought about it), to make a kick/punch system for game input.  It would give quite the workout.  heh    I believe its been done.. by a few different companies in different methodologies.

 (Plus.. physical contact is far more fun than swinging a controller through the air in empty space.. and never registering any actual feedback + poor control to boot)

 +11  for the  Gymkata  clip    :)     I remember seeing that Ages ago as a kid.
Cheesy and unrealistic,but it was fun back then.  Not sure I could say the same now.  Experience in combat really changes your perspective and enjoyment levels of things like this.

Dave, your entitled to your Opinion..  But your Opinions do not suit everyone.

 1) Theres no reason why one cant put a spinner on a control panel.  Either on top, or on the very Front of the cabinet, for use as a driving machine, without getting in the way of joystick gaming.

 2)  Pedals can easily be slid in and out of a pull out or flip down section of the cabinet.

 3)  Multiple panels means more Money, times, energy, and storage space.  More encoders. More wire.  More soldiering. More artwork costs.  More chance of damages during swaps.  More time wasted changing panels instead of playing games.   As well as poor connector issues that tend to be a hassle + will likely break over time.. and have to be re-wired.

 4)  Not everyone has the Space to house multiple cabinets... let alone a rack of specialty control panels.

 5)  Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without.

 6)  While Themeing can be nice...  it doesnt make things play better... and the extra money spent in artwork, could better be used to by more controllers, or other desired things in life.  Even pay the bills.   Looks are not the highest priority on  "everyone's"  list... even if they are on YOURS.   

 (Also note, that considering how many cabs Ive seen that have changed and rebuilt over time.. and all that artwork was flushed...  its often been a waste.   And..  many of the theme's have turned out atrocious, due to the fact that not everyone is a great artist.  Poor color choices, arrangements, non-matching patchworked clip-art + mixed with other styles and non matched color palettes..      I tend not to say anything, because its their creations.. but inside, Im "face-palming" )


 The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

 As for the rest..  Im not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the positives and negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls... as well as ideas on maintaining them, using such things as smaller buttons all around.  Ive also stated that its my opinion that you cant play certain games well without the right controls.

 But I also offered solutions to try, as well as unique ideas and methods.  For example, its great to own a Discs of Tron spinner.. but not everyone can afford and or find one.  Yet a pedal set could make the game very playable with a standard set of generic / cheap controls.


 Nighty Night.


I sternly believe this thread needs more me, My repeated walls of text haven't done much to derail the topic, so I will try again. While the mere idea of foot controls shouldn't be taken seriously, and the fact I have personally said that using a button with your foot would cause fatigue ( http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131495.msg1348660.html#msg1348660 ) I am CHOOSING to contradict myself for the sake of arguing! I also believe that making the spacing super tight on a 6 button set up makes the button count less, while having smaller buttons doesn't, unless they are all smaller. Yes 6 smaller buttons means there are less than 6 buttons on the panel. If you don't agree you are wrong. X2 says so. Please do note, I'm double spacing every line of my replies just to make the wall of text more daunting and less likely to be read. I will once again reiterate that SF needs 6 buttons and despite hating the guy I'm going to secretly agree with Malenko that MK3 would be pretty much impossible to play. I shall make up for agreeing with him about MK3 by stating other uses for a foot pedal that actually make sense and somehow imply that he said you should never use your feet for anything, even walking! I'll also mention people using an 8 way on defender even though it literally has nothing to do with this discussion, also leaf switches!

Now onto opinions... I'm lucky enough to have all my opinions be fact, so my opinion actually means something. Mounting a spinner so its completely vertical is brilliant and arcade makers really missed the boat by not doing it on any games. Aesthetically speaking flip out pedals, crotch spinners, bingo ball dispensers, and tiny buttons are superior to anything else you can do on your MAME cab, also the cab should be black with a blank marquee. Themes are useless. Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without, that's MY JOB!  I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls, and Ive scorned anyone for doing what the OP wanted and suggested work arounds. He will have at least 6 buttons on his panel, it is the X2 mandate!

/translation
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 12:20:17 pm by Malenko »
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2014, 10:42:05 am »
I have three points.

1) Gymkata is probably the raddest movie evar made.
b) I'm going to design a new button, what I'm calling the Xzibit, it's going to be concentric rings.  Way I see it I should only need two Xzibit buttons to have six inputs. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2014, 10:42:29 am »
I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 11:01:47 am »
I have three points.

1) Gymkata is probably the raddest movie evar made.
b) I'm going to design a new button, what I'm calling the Xzibit, it's going to be concentric rings.  Way I see it I should only need two Xzibit buttons to have six inputs.

1. Gymkata, American Ninja, The Last Dragon... the 80s were a wonderful time for Stupid American Kung-Fu Flix.

2. Throw two of these bad boys on your CP, and you can play 6-button SFII. BAM!!! Problem solved!

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 11:36:13 am »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2014, 11:50:20 am »
I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

Worst part is actually having to read his posts. Best part is the content is exactly the same.
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2014, 12:00:56 pm »
I'm giving all my rep to Malenko.  This is better than when CheffoJeffo was throwing Tommy quotes back in Tommy's face.

+1 - best translation ever!  :laugh2:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #47 on: May 13, 2014, 12:35:52 pm »
The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. So much so that I will probably implement it in my next machine. I only used the term shoulder button because it easy way to allow people to visualize without drawing a picture.  Two little buttons happily on top and easy to get to,  but out of the way enough that they won't accidentally be mashed silly.

What it is closer to is a specialty button, like those commonly found in many classic arcade games. Whether it was a button for the torpedo, death blossom, potion, supermove that drains health or mega-nuke-grenade, it was common practice to have a button that was separated from the fray of the routine button mashing, because it needed to be used deliberately and sparingly. I commonly find it an issue when playing a game with X number of buttons, and while getting acclimated to the game, end up accidentally using up my specialty function simply trying to figure out what button does what. This would solve that problem handily.

The only reason I mentioned SNES was an afterthought. SNES games translate horribly to an arcade control panel in my opinion. There are 4 main buttons, and two shoulder buttons, but I never found a way to distribute them on a standard 6 button layout that made sense to me. Add two buttons on top, problem solved.

Oh, and you used the word "arcade" incorrectly. You install buttons on an arcade machine;)

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2014, 01:53:37 pm »
Perhaps I'm missing the point of this thread, but as LC said this is for him, so he can do whatever he wants with his crotch, errr, I mean control panel.

If you really want to play MK, et el, then I don't know why you wouldn't put the required number of buttons. This is probably nothing you don't already know, but when I was planning my CP I made a spread sheet of all the games I wanted to play and their controls so I could see what compromises I'd have to make, if any. I'm only interested in MAME and as far as buttons go, it turns out that, in my list, a little over 300 games use 4 or less buttons. Where as 25 used 5-6. Of those that use 5 or more it turns out there are some I wanted to play like Asteroids. So, I decided to go with a 7 button layout (woot for the Frankenpanel  ;D).

I get that the current trend is away from the "frankenpanel." But, in all honesty, it works for the majority of games out there. As other have said, if you really don't want all the buttons then you can either make that trade off or tailor your panel to a particular game or set of games you want.

Cheers!

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2014, 02:11:53 pm »
This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2014, 02:14:38 pm »
Point of the thread was more along the lines of, "how can I shave the number of buttons and still be able to play X, Y, and Z, at a casual mediocre level?"  Creative button assignments in mame and the like. 

To be honest tho, I enjoy the direction this has taken much more  ;D

This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

I've got one of those "make any thing conductive a button" kits from kickstarter.  The one where they played chopsticks on a bunch of bananas.  Would be perfect for this.  I recommend we change to KI tho because X2 said it's the deepest game out there or something. 


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2014, 02:23:04 pm »
Point of the thread was more along the lines of, "how can I shave the number of buttons and still be able to play X, Y, and Z, at a casual mediocre level?"  Creative button assignments in mame and the like. 

To be honest tho, I enjoy the direction this has taken much more  ;D

This thread gave me the weirdest idea.  We should have an impromptu contest where we all construct the weirdest mechanism to play a game of Mortal Kombat (or any multi-button game) using whatever you can find around the house like toilet flush handles, door handles, toy xylophones, whatever - just no buttons.   It can be judged on originality, ingenuity, etc.

Might be fun ...or not, I dunno.

I've got one of those "make any thing conductive a button" kits from kickstarter.  The one where they played chopsticks on a bunch of bananas.  Would be perfect for this.  I recommend we change to KI tho because X2 said it's the deepest game out there or something.

Seconded. Extra points if you can incorporate a crotch spinner/button or a RealDollTM.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 02:17:51 pm »
Feel the Love   :lol

 Didnt hit enter from last break period...  so here it is...

Quote
  Anyway, I think you're missing the point of the thread. I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.

 My thought was that he didnt want to do all that customized effort towards his clients.

 As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)

 And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills.  (And if your so lazy that you place your pot belly on the CP... resting all your mass forwards..  then you might think to lay off the junk food for a while...  maybe build an interactive punch / kick mame controller   >:D   :lol 


 Concentric buttons?   I think it would be interesting...  but honestly, I think it would be very clumsy.   It would be hard to hit the proper area without looking.   And its still really multiple buttons.   What about a telephone dialpad  :P   Thats one assembly, and has like 12 buttons in a small space.  Or a Keyboard number pad...  :P

Quote
While the mere idea of foot controls shouldn't be taken seriously, and the fact I have personally said that using a button with your foot would cause fatigue

 I did say it would cause fatigue, and reasons why not to use a non 6 button layout.. but I also gave optional ideas, based on his   This isnt contradictory. 


 Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2014, 02:38:59 pm »
put 4 buttons....sacrifice a move or 2 for some games...have extras for others.

or

put the maximum amount of buttons needed for the particular series of games you wish to play.

/thread.

also, the shoulder buttons on the SNES where awesome and perfectly placed It was just required they were implemented properly for the game. for SF2, no. i usually remapped the hk hp to something else and had the weak move on them because you can't push them fast (like for chung-li's kick, e.honda's slap, etc) but for a game like F-Zero, using them as hard turn/shallow turn modifiers was perfect for them. but at the same time, that same implementation does not translate to the SNES advantage (or an arcade control for that matter) well.

do waht you like, like what you do. if you try it and it doesn't work... hey, you tried

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2014, 08:08:54 pm »
*sigh...*

As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)

Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.

Do you not get it has nothing to do with space and everything to do with aesthetics? I mean maybe I misread it but, in the 10 years on these boards, I remember no one having a problem finding room for two extra columns of buttons.

Quote
And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills. 

I'm a tall guy. Everything ends up in my crotch eventually.

Quote
Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.

Hey, there's a vertically mounted dial on my stereo and my old TV and my oscillating fan so IT MUST be perfectly acceptable to put one on an arcade cab.

Let's get serious for a second - there's a difference between a machine made for a driving game and one where it looks like someone slapped a wheel on to the front of a standard panel as an afterthought. It looks uncomfortable and weird and ugly. I could be wrong about the uncomfortable part but it's a fair assumption.  If you simply must have a steering wheel and a fighter setup - just make the panels interchangable or build another cab. And don't moan about "the complex wiring" or "the expense of cutting another piece of wood" or "buying another CPO" or "not having the space". Just do it or do without. Don't play Street Fighter with rotatory controls jamming you in the nether region.* 

And if you're just using it as a spinner - put that on the panel.  They do not take up all that much space these days.

(*Just my opinion  ;) )

EDIT: One more thing - at what point in this thread about button count and popular fighting games did the topic of spinners (and placement thereof) enter the mix?!  Ugh... my head hurts...
 :dizzy:
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 08:35:10 pm by DaveMMR »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2014, 09:46:56 pm »
Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.
Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:22 pm »
I'd rather translate your reply, but I think for a change I'll post X2 style instead PREPARE THE WALL OF TEXT!

I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)
No, he wants to know if there's a way to play street fighter and the like with 4 buttons.

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.
Please, leave us out of your fantasies. Again, the point of this thread was to kinda brain storm ideas and figure out all the draw backs of a 4 button panel.

My thought was that he didnt want to do all that customized effort towards his clients.
Then -1 to your reading comprehension. He never mentioned doing this to any of his clients panels. Ever.


As for 'hidden' controls - such as a pull out pedal set..  I cant imagine how that makes things more cluttered?  (especially on the CP no less) Im not trying to be mean.. but Maybe Logic is failing in your universe?  (Yup, its more work than drilling 4 more holes... but then again.. you get driving functionality.. as well as others)
No one is saying its any more or less cluttered, just that it is more or less irrelevant.


And yup, I realize your trying to be funny, and I did get a chuckle over it, and the other replies..  but seriously, if your crotch is level with the front face of your control panel.. you are either a freak of nature,  and or you have very poor designing and building skills.  (And if your so lazy that you place your pot belly on the CP... resting all your mass forwards..  then you might think to lay off the junk food for a while...  maybe build an interactive punch / kick mame controller   >:D   :lol 
First off, "you're" . Secondly, maybe my boner has a boner when I'm rippin Sub Zero's head off?


Concentric buttons?   I think it would be interesting...  but honestly, I think it would be very clumsy.   It would be hard to hit the proper area without looking.   And its still really multiple buttons.   What about a telephone dialpad  :P   Thats one assembly, and has like 12 buttons in a small space.  Or a Keyboard number pad...  :P
Concentric buttons was a corny joke, please dont waste brain power thinkin about it. The number pad worked great on the Jaguar.


Seriously..  A vertical spinner is on pretty much every device out there.. .from stereo volume control,  fan speed controls, manual can openers,  car and boat steering wheels,  ..and guess what?  ARCADE steering wheels.   Whoda thunkit?  Whats the difference between a spinner and a 360 degree supersprint wheel?   Diameter of the wheel, and greater mass / leverage.  Nothing much more.
My home theater system has a touch pad for volume control. But what exactly does a can opener have to do with 4 buttons for fighting games?
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2014, 10:09:49 pm »
Logic is failing in my universe?  Let's recap this thread for those who are just joining us...

Le Chuck:  I hate having 6 buttons for each player. I would rather have 4 buttons. For a casual, who-gives-a-care game of SFII or MK, any suggestions for playing adequately with just four buttons?
Others: Various thoughts, ideas and opinions.
You: You should add driving pedals to the cabinet, have it fold away. And now you have driving functionality, so now you need a steering wheel but if you don't want it on the panel, mount a spinner vertically because your cab will now look SO MUCH cleaner.
Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2014, 10:15:37 pm »
Keep posting like that and I might end up in your crotch :*

I don't know what is more frightening: that or the fact you attributed some of my quotes to Xiaou. I mean, do we both sound alike? I guess if I take a step back and look objectively it's quite possible I'm no different... perhaps...?

I'm just very scared right now*.  :scared

I just don't know why people can't play fighters** by mashing their palm frantically on the buttons like I do - whether they have four or fourteen buttons or foot pedals! I'd be able to sleep tonight.

(*and also Burger King  :burgerking:)
(**not Killer Instinct, obviously)

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2014, 10:18:16 pm »
Quoting the wrong person like that is just part of posting in the X2 shall in toe stab style, don't be scared
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #60 on: May 14, 2014, 10:33:47 pm »
Quoting the wrong person like that is just part of posting in the X2 shall in toe stab style, don't be scared

Oh thank goodness... 

As to Le Chuck's original issue:
How about pressure sensitive buttons? Like PS2 (and above) has? Or the original Street Fighter? Three levels of pressure per button and you can have 12 virtual buttons per player with only four physical buttons. (Is such a thing possible for arcade buttons?)

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2014, 12:58:09 am »
Well, I cant reply too all this lunacy.  Its a waste of time really.

  Its actually funny, because several people have attempted to guess the posters reasoning.. yet his text really does Not specify much of any reasoning.   Lets re-read:

Quote
The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me. 

 Why does this bother you?

 - Space?
 - Costs?
 - Construction Time / Effort?
 - Other???   For most helpful answers, please insert Reason: __________________________


Quote
Some builds I don't put that many for sure and customers that want to play the fighters on the build expect a MK or SFII layout - and the customer is always/mostly somewhat rightish so that's not what this is about.

 So.. he mentions making cabs / build for SALE.

 The way it reads to me... is that he is building a lot of stuff without pre-consultation or buyer commitment.   After completion, whether it once had been for him personally...  and or for mere fun in building..   he later tries to sell these said creations... only to get pestered into adding more buttons from said fans/customers...   Which is a real nightmare to undo & modify these creations... to seal the deal.

 But then the quoted text below, pops up.. and sorta negates the above.   Well..  it more or less changes his intent...

Quote
This is about me, this guy.  This guy is tired of so many damn buttons.  Four button panels would be ideal

 Again, we do not have a reason why for buttons is ideal?

 - Looks?
 - Space?
 - Construction time / energy
 - Costs?
 - A combination???

Quote
- but how do I still get my SF/MvsC/MK fix?  I've thought about just eliminating WP/WK and going M and H, I'm not a competition player by any means but I don't want to lose valuable functionality.


 This is very straight forward:

 1) Wants to play good... without any loss of  "valuable" functionality.
 2) Isnt a professional tournament fighter.  Doesnt need a 20part joystick hack PDF.  Convex buttons are questionable.
 3) Likes to Whine.  And or Wine.

 The question is impossible to answer...  Partly because the intentions are not there.   What constitutes value of function to this person?

 1)  Can live with only using kicks and no punches allowed?
 2)  Can live without blocking, running, and combos?
 3)  Can live without jumping? Up and down are kick and punch.

 Many fighting games make use of two or three buttons pressed at the same time.  So using two buttons to form a 3rd, isnt going to work for these cases.    In Tekken3..  precise order and timing of the button presses.. can change the moves drastically.   In KI,  theres press and holds...  so timing is out for a 3rd ..  not to mention, many games are too fast for that anyways.   KI also makes more use of the quick/low  buttons that a lot of other fighters.   Many of the latter Capcom variants use combos.. so quicks are also used in them extensively too.

 I could keep on going with what functionality you lose...   but that doesnt really change the facts.   The fact is that we dont know what Values he cares if he loses.  If any.

Quote
I know on SFIV you can pretty much clean up with three buttons (due to the combination "cheats").

 This says he may be a cheater.  :P    But it does not add anything to the equation.

 If we say that 15% of all the fighters allow you to beat some major bass guitar, with only 3 buttons... What about the 85% that dont?
..
 
Quote
So...anybody done this, or something similar?  I've thought about going through move lists and seeing what can be eliminated and try to whittle down the requirement, maybe use SFII, MvsC, and MKII as the baseline set; but all I've done is think about it.


 So, here is the Final clue...

 Hes thought about whittleing down game moves on 3 fighters..  but never even started to try to assemble the spreadsheet...

 He also does not specify which games should or should not be included.   Only a few games hes thought about as a 'Starter'.   Which doesnt help... because if you added two more games on there that react differently..  then the whole effort of trying to guess what is "Valuable"  and then make a 20 page spreadsheet on games you Guess are the ones he would want to play... is going to get scrapped anyways.

 
 Which to me,  via his own words...  meant:   I want to play a lot of fighters without any loss in buttkickin..  but only have 4 hand tap buttons...  rather than 6.


  To me, any loss in control is a loss of Valuable functionality...   So the only other option after that is... alternative control options.. such as foot pedals...

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2014, 06:50:03 am »
says this:
Well, I cant reply too all this lunacy.  Its a waste of time really.

Then posts a wall of text
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #63 on: May 15, 2014, 07:46:26 am »
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 07:49:55 am by DaveMMR »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #64 on: May 15, 2014, 08:13:04 am »
Quote from: Xiaou2
So.. he mentions making cabs / build for SALE.

 The way it reads to me... is that he is building a lot of stuff without pre-consultation or buyer commitment.   After completion, whether it once had been for him personally...  and or for mere fun in building..   he later tries to sell these said creations... only to get pestered into adding more buttons from said fans/customers...   Which is a real nightmare to undo & modify these creations... to seal the deal.


Nope.  Not ever even once.  I have never built anything for personal use and then sold it.  Every cab I have built for a customer has been to customer spec.  If I didn't like their design I would advise them as to why but in the end it's their cash and they get what they want even if they aren't "right".  You are right that everything I build for me is about me and the fun of building. 

I've never built generic builds and then sought a buyer.  I might do that one day, but haven't yet.  Too much other stuff to do. 

Reason for the four buttons:  Four fingers.  Don't like using my thumb so not five.  Don't want pedals, dials, whozits, whatzits, or gizmos.  Four makes sense.  Four.  Four crates, four stones!  Not one or two or three but four!

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #65 on: May 15, 2014, 10:01:47 am »
I love my cabinet and it's mess of buttons and other BS.  I have 7 buttons for players 1 and 2.  I have a dedicated 4 way with 3 buttons.  Trackball and spinner.  P3 and 4 have 4 buttons.  Plus start/coin for every player and 3 menu buttons.  I have a lot of crap on my control panel and I even had the disgusting thought to put RGBs all over everything too.  It's just ugly.   ;D

I know one thing though, kids to grandparents see it and want to play it.  They don't care that there is too many buttons, every single one of them can find the game they want to play and have the controls to do it.  My friends can play Samuari Showdown/MK/SF2 with all the buttons, my parents can play donkey kong and pac man, everyone enjoys drunken Golden Tee.  I have had people waiting in line to join a game of TMNT with all four spots going at it.

I have actually thought about building another and I would probably build another 4 player cp with the same setup, but do a curved fighter setup instead of the straight across button setup I have now.   

eds1275

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #66 on: May 15, 2014, 10:41:17 am »
everyone enjoys drunken Golden Tee.

yes they do!

Although I don't share the hate for Xiaou2, I just roll my eyes and don't read any of it because he quotes people but removes the information as to who said what and I'm not about to go scrolling through to find out if I think it was taken out of context.

Xiaou2

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #67 on: May 15, 2014, 12:43:35 pm »
Quote
Reason for the four buttons:  Four fingers.  Don't like using my thumb so not five.  Don't want pedals, dials, whozits, whatzits, or gizmos.  Four makes sense.  Four.  Four crates, four stones!  Not one or two or three but four!

 Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.

 I seriously doubt I could span 4 arcade buttons on a single horizontal line..  let alone a typical woman or childrens hand.

 However, you can span 3 buttons quite easily from on a horizontal line, so long as you dont have ridiculous button space gap.
Which is why the dual triad rows came into existance... and have stuck ever since.

 Furthermore, on when thinking back to the days of the Sega Genesis..  I preferred its linear button layout.   It was so easy to slide the thumb from center to either side.. to change weapons, turbo boost, etc...

 Edit:

 Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 12:46:39 pm by Xiaou2 »

yotsuya

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #68 on: May 15, 2014, 01:05:35 pm »
Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #69 on: May 15, 2014, 01:11:30 pm »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #70 on: May 15, 2014, 01:21:22 pm »
Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.


Its called an arc. It would be similar to a neo geo layout. Who said all fingers need to be resting on buttons? I personally like to tilt my pinky in when using it. Sorry if that is not competitive enough for you....

Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.

You underestimate Le Chuck's pinkies. You may have a Shaolin toe Stab, but Le Chuck has the Eagle Claw Pinky Jab.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #71 on: May 15, 2014, 01:27:05 pm »
The pinky is so a finger!  All the fingers have names you numbnuts: index, ring, pinky, g-spot go getter, see - named.  All of them.  The thumb isn't a finger because it's short a point of articulation.  Also, I can so span four buttons.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Four.  foooooourr!  Four is the magic number.  Four in a line.  Not matrixed out.  I hate the matrix.  It's the first non prime number for chrissakes (except for one which by strictest definition is neither prime nor composite but is in fact the loneliest number)

My years of doing sign language have given me super human dexterity.  My pinky FINGER is probably worth at least two of your other fingers.  When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.  This isn't built for typical wooden children.  This is built for me!   The number of buttons is in fact too damn high!

Now please excuse me while I utilize my Eagle Claw Pinky Jab to open this can of sprite. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #72 on: May 15, 2014, 01:33:00 pm »
The pinky is so a finger!  All the fingers have names you numbnuts: index, ring, pinky, g-spot go getter, see - named.  All of them.  The thumb isn't a finger because it's short a point of articulation.  Also, I can so span four buttons.  You have no idea what you're talking about.  Four.  foooooourr!  Four is the magic number.  Four in a line.  Not matrixed out.  I hate the matrix.  It's the first non prime number for chrissakes (except for one which by strictest definition is neither prime nor composite but is in fact the loneliest number)

My years of doing sign language have given me super human dexterity.  My pinky FINGER is probably worth at least two of your other fingers.  When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.  This isn't built for typical wooden children.  This is built for me!   The number of buttons is in fact too damn high!

Now please excuse me while I utilize my Eagle Claw Pinky Jab to open this can of sprite.

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #73 on: May 15, 2014, 01:41:22 pm »
When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk.  :laugh2:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #74 on: May 15, 2014, 02:42:09 pm »
When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk.  :laugh2:



confirmed - X2 is a simpsons character....but which one... :banghead:

eds1275

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #75 on: May 15, 2014, 03:09:37 pm »
comic book guy?

   My pinky is hardcore. I use it all the time when I play arcade games.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #76 on: May 15, 2014, 04:23:18 pm »
When I hold up four fingers I don't have to use two hands like you.

....and that is the point where started snorting at my desk.  :laugh2:



confirmed - X2 is a simpsons character....but which one... :banghead:


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2014, 12:12:27 am »
I was only able to fit four buttons per player on my cab and even at that, only in diamond patterns.
I like SF and all but for me it came down to I simply couldn't fit the buttons so I rely on the NeoGeo fighters. I think there's a great selection there and the competitions just as much fun.
I'm very much just a casual player of fighters and I agree that just doing without the light jab and kick may be the best way to go with four buttons.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2014, 11:36:52 am »
Uh...  unless you are spanning all 4 buttons in a single line, then theres no logic to your resoning...  because you cant place all your four fingers on a 2x2 matrix of typical arcade buttons.


Its called an arc. It would be similar to a neo geo layout. Who said all fingers need to be resting on buttons? I personally like to tilt my pinky in when using it. Sorry if that is not competitive enough for you....

Furthermore...  you actually only have 3 fingers..  1 thumb, and 1 pinky.   The pinky and thumb are not well suited for vertical arcade button pressing.
Between them, theres a lack or control, reaction time, speed/acceleration, and strength.

You underestimate Le Chuck's pinkies. You may have a Shaolin toe Stab, but Le Chuck has the Eagle Claw Pinky Jab.

 Your probably using those wretched flat topped or convex buttons.   These no reason to argue with you..   That would be like trying to argue with a person whom thinks Beats Pro  headphones are Audiophile /  High Fidelity.


lamprey

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2014, 12:21:50 pm »
Your probably using those wretched flat topped or convex buttons.   These no reason to argue with you..   That would be like trying to argue with a person whom thinks Beats Pro  headphones are Audiophile /  High Fidelity.
I almost feel like it is a game for you to see how much conversational terrorism you can fit into a post. So, now I too make a game of it. If I can identify more than 3 kinds of conversational terrorism in a post I yell out "X2!!!" and I win!

For those that want to play at home, here is a link that might help http://www.vandruff.com/art_converse.html

Xiaou2

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2014, 01:50:06 pm »
Thanks for the Link.  Ive always wanted a guide to see how all these jerks operate.

 But alas, your mistaken.

 My point, is quite simple.  Marketing is what made beats popular.  Not quality. Not frequency range.  Not accuracy.  Not durability.    Ive got 13 yr old headphones that will continue to outlast anyones Beats, and have a frequency range that much wider, with gobs less distortion, that are so light weight and comfy.. you forget your wearing them... and I paid $120 for them.  Not $300+

 Beats have the audio frequency range of a 20$ headphone.  Poor quality.  Heavy-Mass.  Break easily with normal care. Laden with distortions..  and not exactly comfy for extended time listening.  BUT..  the marketing makes Zombie's into true believers.  These Zombies will fight tooth and nail with aggressiveness, and never once compare factual data.. and or without some hyperboil BS slant / excuse.

 Quite Simply, truth is truth.  Fandom does not change Physics.

 I could go into a 10page comparison of all the reasons why convex buttons suck.  But its a waste.. because Fanboys dont care.  They are true believers..  like a Cult Religion.   Facts, Physics, and or any kind of Data, is never investigated in depth.. if at all.


 Furthermore Lamprey,   Please read many of my posts which were helpful or passionate, are littered with countless sideswipe attacks.   I usually withstand quite a good deal of them, before I decide to swipe back.

 Then, take a look at the Top posters, whom regularly bash and claw at every other posters posts,  without rhyme or reason.   Simply, because they are discontent, and Love to make others discontent.. in order to try to feel better. 
 
 (which is quite Idiotic, considering, it will never work.  Is never a fix for their Broken way of being)

 Cheers.

  :cheers:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2014, 02:23:15 pm »
Ive got 13 yr old headphones that will continue to outlast anyones Beats, and have a frequency range that much wider, with gobs less distortion, that are so light weight and comfy.. you forget your wearing them... and I paid $120 for them.  Not $300+

Ahh, I see how you view things now.  In our projector discussion, you asserted that anything which was a few years old was "outdated junk" (paraphrased) while anything newer was obviously better (due to technology advances, etc...)  Interesting how those sentiments don't seem to apply where your stuff is concerned.  It's not that I necessarily disagree with your assertion (I know better, as it's entirely possible) but you can't have it both ways for your own convenience.  Also keep in mind that $120 thirteen years ago isn't $120 in today money.  So what you paid wasn't much different.

Quote
I could go into a 10page comparison of all the reasons why convex buttons suck.  But its a waste.. because Fanboys dont care.  They are true believers..  like a Cult Religion.   Facts, Physics, and or any kind of Data, is never investigated in depth.. if at all.

You could, but what would be the point?  In the end, it would just be your opinion.  Convex buttons are no different than concave buttons, and someone who prefers that style, and does well with them, has no reason to look further.  I used to play FPS games with a flightstick and trackball controller.  Did quite well with it, and found it to be a more enjoyable way to play than with a mouse and keyboard.  I'm sure those who choose to use the M+K method would have thought I was nuts, but that didn't keep me from fragging them quite often.  And if I had to use the M+K method, I wouldn't have had as much fun, nor played as often.

Sometimes being "right" means being "right for you".

Le Chuck

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2014, 02:30:39 pm »
I think we've strayed from the real topic here folks.  Can we please get back to the non sequitur discussion of foot/crotch controls and depart this non sequitur discussion of speakers and intrinsic value.  Kaithanksbai!

eds1275

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2014, 02:54:48 pm »
...but I haven't gotten to show off my new kegal button. It's analogue and responds to pressure!

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2014, 03:02:47 pm »
How well does that work for Lunar Lander?   :laugh2:


Scott

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2014, 04:25:11 pm »
X2: Electric Boogaloo, how in the hell did you get on the topic of headphones? Literally no one asked. You shoehorned that it with as much grace and decorum as inter-cell prison sex.  You're not even on the same continent as the original topic.

And also.... it's "you're" when you want to say "you are". I don't nitpick but you use "your"[sic] in your posts more than anyone so I think spelling it properly is a good habit to get into. Or just say "you are" - it's one extra character. Type it with your non-finger pinky.




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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2014, 07:09:33 pm »
Will somebody please just think of the children!!?

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2014, 10:23:20 am »
Quote
Ahh, I see how you view things now.  In our projector discussion, you asserted that anything which was a few years old was "outdated junk" (paraphrased) while anything newer was obviously better (due to technology advances, etc...)  Interesting how those sentiments don't seem to apply where your stuff is concerned.  It's not that I necessarily disagree with your assertion (I know better, as it's entirely possible) but you can't have it both ways for your own convenience.  Also keep in mind that $120 thirteen years ago isn't $120 in today money.  So what you paid wasn't much different.

 Nah dude.   It applies differently to various fields.   Display technology is one field that continues to grow at an exponential rate.   The reasons are due to different motivations.   That said, even though the displays are getting better in some ways...  their durability and quality has fallen.   For example, yes your new LCD may beat my 34" Sony widescreen 1080i hdmi CRT tv's  picture quality  (unless your doing non native resolutions for gaming ;)  )  However, the Sony I bought was Used.. and it will probably outlast the next 2 or 3 or your LCD tvs lifespans.   Thats because they make the new stuff to be disposable, and to break with relative ease... so that you will buy another one.  Its called Planned Obsolescence... and its been going on since GE Lightbulbs (They used to hold contests to see who could make bulbs blow closest to a certain hour marker, on purpose), and well beyond that.

 Speaker Tech is also different.  Most all of the technology related to audio has long since been understood and put into practice.   The famous AR3a's from Acoustic Research, used to peddle their speakers to large malls and gatherings...  And then would ask people if they could tell the difference between them.. and a live band that would play.   People couldnt tell.   The Smithsonian Museum now has a pair in their collection..  and restored AR3a's sell used on ebay as high as 1000$ regularly..   Not much less for unrestored AR3a's either.

 Whats the catch?   The elder speakers are very power hungry.  You need a very hefty amp to rum them..  and they are not always the loudest speakers you could own.   However, their output is FAR more accurate, with less distortion, without any Fake artificial boomy 'port'  based Bass.

 Note that the good speakers, are usually speakers are quite heavy.  Made of either real solid hardwood.. or up to an Inch thick of particalboard laminated with fake or real wood laminate.  Often stuffed with Acoustic fiber,  and best without any air ports.  Instead, the air inside is well sealed, and acts as a spring. (Acoustic Suspension).   The heavy cabinet keeps vibrations from moving it and distorting the sounds.    One of the former guys from the elder Genesis speaker company.. (of which I believe bought EPI, makers some incredible speakers..  )   goes so far as to line his speakers with lead sheeting.

 The speakers themselves usually have far superior drivers.  Larger and stronger magnets.  Heavier duty coils.  Which also adds to that weight.

 Many have very complex high end crossovers..  with dial adjustments on the speaker itself.   Many new speakers have a few cheap caps at best.   The AR3a's have the most crazy crossover setup Ive ever seen.   Theres two main units, as well as it using seriously high power handling ceramic adjustment pots...  As these will most likely get super hot, and standard pots wouldnt hold up to that level of power.   (I suspect the Lpad kits do not really put out the same levels of responses that were intended..  and Im not sure that the small cap replacements are up to par either.  Then again, Im not versed in anything much more than basic wiring)


 Now... Why have once great speaker companies turned to Crap?   Because they were concerned about the environment (power draw),  as well as the difficulty in dealing with the Amp manufacturers.  People want cheap amps..  but speakers of such high function, need / want expensive amps... to really shine.

 Couple that with the fact that all the material prices have went up.. Labor isnt as cheap.. Shipping costs more.. etc..  and what they did was to cut as many corners as possible, in order to make the largest profits... rather than putting out great speakers to the masses.   Only select unobtainable 'rich mans'  speakers are designed and made to the past high standards & technology.  It wasnt always like that.  (And btw - those $2000 speakers at your modern stereo shop are garbage too)

 The woofers in todays cabinets are small and or have small magnets..  with thin metal baskets, that distort quite easily. The wood has went down from 1/2"  a few years ago... to just a hair over  1/4"  in many speakers these days.   Since the smaller speakers do not produce much bass..  they expect you buy a boomy subwoofer.   But then where is the musical bass range that a typical large woofer could play?  Vanished.

 Then again..  look at the music this gen has to listen to.   They have compressed all the detail and range out of the music cds.   Even the Master recordings are compressed to hell.. super distorted and absolute garbage.   It, like most movies and video games..  are now also crap..  because they have been taken over by powerful people.. whom have zero artistic understanding.  There is never enough money for them.. and so they will cut details to reduce production costs, as well as to follow a certain "Formula"  they have came up with.  This is why so many songs sound the same these days.  And why almost all new games play pretty much exactly the same. FPS FPS FPS..  for +20yrs, its been the same repacked, boring old-hat.   Almost Nothing original.  Not in games, movies, musical artists...etc.

 
 Companies like Bose, Beats .. are all overpriced Hype & garbage.  They use massive tv commercial marketing, to make the Zombies believe they are the best.    Sadly, many people find out the hard way... as one of my collector friends had just bought a very expensive pair of Bose headphones... and upon hearing my OLD Senns..  nearly cried.. after he was able to lift his jaw off the floor.  Especially when I told him what I paid.


 As for your comment about elder dollars..  Thats a load of crap too.   My 120$  was still the same 120$  as today.  I made less money..  but..  I also had cheaper groceries, WAY Cheaper Gas, as well as all the rest.   It was the bottom of their HD Audiophile line.   They have pretty much the same pricing for the new models in that series.   A range of headphones for every budget level in that category.  All of them high quality with removable headphone cable..   but many which will put out frequency response, incredibly low THD (distortions)  and a huge 3d soundstage, that even 50,000$ speakers match.


 Basically what Im saying.. is that you can still get an HD Audiophile level Sennheiser for under $100.  One that stomps all over Beats Pro.   And when you hear one of Senns higher priced, yet still justifiably affordable,  sets..  it will blow your mind.     With beats, your paying $300?  ...for a set thats on the Senns 20$ price level.   ...As well as paying for all the advertising, that made you  BELIEVE  they were good in the first place.

 
 
 Im not saying that All things new are bad or worse.  But Id have to say that the majority of consumer good and even the entertainment quality in music and movies..  is far worse than the distant past.

 The includes things like the decision for arcade machines to be made with Happs Generica controllers... and the later Flush / Convex buttons, and those cheaply made Japanese sticks... that would probably be bent and destroyed in any USA arcade.. in a matter of hours.

 On buttons opinions.. 

 
 There is always a reason why something is better or worse.  Not just in quality and looks.. but in actual function, comfort,  & physical mechanical losses.   Hence why we would agree that cutting the lawn with a mower, is far more effective than with a pair of shears.

  Leafs react physically better for certain games. 

 Concave fits the fingers better.. and keeps them centered on the buttons, .. so you will never accidentally get lost, not knowing which button you are on.. if you 'slid' off a button.  Which is probably going to happen, considering that many of these poorly designed controllers ... are too sensitive for even resting the fingers on buttons lightly.   

 If you try to play Galaga or Asteroids Deluxe..  with a Microswitch..  thats like bringing a slingshot to a gunfight.    Or if you try to play any Pacman Variant, without a diamond restrictor...  instead of using an 8way.


 Dave, thanks for the colorful Critique of my posts, and your efforts to be my personal spell checker. Gave me a chuckle  :)     But seriously, I know all about YOUR, UR, U R, and You're... etc.  :P     I just dont care.  Its not important to me in the least, to spend extra time typing out correct punctuation.  Its the Content that matters. Not the spelling or punct..   nor even the grammar.

 I think its hard for those whom are OCD freaks, and  "Follow the Pattern"+"Zombies",  to accept a concept like this.. but realize that its really not important in the grand scheme of things.

 
 ChanceKJ,  I am.  ;)  :)

  Im trying to de-brainwash them from the forced-upon lackluster garbage..  awareness of whats out there are the reasons why..  and to end up demanding  "better".
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:37:43 am by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2014, 12:16:00 pm »
TL/DR,

But I did catch my name at the end. :D I read that...

yotsuya

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #89 on: May 18, 2014, 12:18:44 pm »
TL/DR,

But I did catch my name at the end. :D I read that...

Basically, it was "Everything in the world today is crap."
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #90 on: May 18, 2014, 01:01:08 pm »
I read the whole thing, the closest thing to mentioning buttons was micro-switches for Galaga but that was just to do one of his "makes no sense comparisons" (slingshots to a gun fight)  :dunno

I hate to corral this back ON TOPIC, but Chuckles, have you tried playing SF2 without the light attacks yet?
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #91 on: May 18, 2014, 01:41:30 pm »
...the closest thing to mentioning buttons was micro-switches for Galaga but that was just to do one of his "makes no sense comparisons" (slingshots to a gun fight)  :dunno

Why would you type 1,597 words off topic!?!  ???

I mean in the end, just have one button for each thing. Think you might have more things? Then put more buttons!  And who should give a crap if someone wants to add 8 buttons for each on a four player setup and a half dozen admin buttons?! Let them find out on their own. Why waste your energy and time when it's so beautiful outside. If anything it helps funnel money into vendors. Then they get more money from button sales and release cool new products that help you!




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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #92 on: May 18, 2014, 09:04:05 pm »
If you try to play Galaga or Asteroids Deluxe..  with a Microswitch..  thats like bringing a slingshot to a gunfight.    Or if you try to play any Pacman Variant, without a diamond restrictor...  instead of using an 8way.

To recap:

Playing Galaga or Asteroids with a MICROSWITCH button : NOT OKAY
Playing Pacman without a diamond restrictor: NOT OKAY
Playing Discs of Tron or Street Fighter II with your feet: PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 10:30:24 pm by DaveMMR »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2014, 12:36:43 am »
Chancekj, love the pic   hehe

 To recap:

Quote
Playing Galaga or Asteroids with a MICROSWITCH button : NOT OKAY
Playing Pacman without a diamond restrictor: NOT OKAY
Playing Discs of Tron or Street Fighter II with your feet: PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE

 Did I say that?  Nope.

 I said if you are that stubborn and refuse to add the extra buttons... then heres a possible set of solutions.
They are Far from perfect or accurate.  But they are far better than trying to play without said buttons.

 And while I cant really recommend playing Pacman with an 8way... DOT could have easily had been a
Pedal aim game.   The up/down aim system is very clunky in that mechanism.   Reason being that its not easy to spin and push up or down at the same time.  Where as if aim mechanism was separate, you could use all the controls at the same time without any interference.   The aiming control isnt exactly high speed either..  so a  center axis pedal would easily pull it off.  (or use a standard pedal, and deal with holding it steady, wherever your want it)

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2014, 08:04:11 am »
Yeah, just for the record, Le Chuck - or anyone - who wants a clean panel is not being stubborn.  For many, it's important for their panel to look inviting, easy to play and pleasing to eye.

Since I feel like I'm just adding more fuel to your fire, I'm going to stop right there and go back to the...

ORIGINAL TOPIC

Le Chuck, I was playing "Narc" on the NES the other day (not recommended) and they had a weird system where tapping a button did one thing (jump/rocket launcher) where holding the same buttons down did another (duck/gun.) Yeah, it's sloppy but with some practice, somewhat workable. Is something like that even possible maybe with third party background software which registers a different key when held down as opposed to tapped? Might be a solution....

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2014, 08:15:03 am »
@Dave - Using AHK I could program in a one second hold on a button to key any number of moves.  That's actually not a bad idea for MvsC - that way I could reduce button count and still get my tags.  I'm sure there are tons of "cheats" too for that, dragon punch on a triple tap of the punch button or something etc but yeah, I think that would work pretty well.

@Malenko - not yet man, I've had like zero game time the last few weeks, all of my free time is spent in the garage right now.  I've got a pile of racing games I want to go through for the Starfighter build and I want to see what I can make happen with limited button counts on my favorite fighters - and refine that list a bit.  Once I get to it I'll make sure and take notes on what I can pull off and what I can't. 

@eds1275 - I will straight pay money for video of SMB lv1 being cleared using only kegel controls.  Double money if you can work out the analog bit using a kadestick and play Star wars.  Triple money if you can get gold in Track and Field. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2014, 11:27:25 am »
Wow....X2 has been spewing a lot of crap this weekend. I really missed out, didn't I?  ::)

Let me just reel back to my favorite highlight of the weekend. Post #78!  I had just finished my work week pointing out to X2 that you can in fact have 4 buttons on a control panel, and it is part of the standard Neo-Geo layout. Well, I am sure the captain of the "I'm always right" team has a flawless counter-argument to my point:

Your probably using those wretched flat topped or convex buttons.   These no reason to argue with you..   That would be like trying to argue with a person whom thinks Beats Pro  headphones are Audiophile /  High Fidelity.

Wait? What? That's it? No Wall of text pointing out how my methods couldn't possibly work? No 13 point analysis on how 4 buttons will expropriate the player from gaming bliss? No metaphors about trampolines and hot dogs?

No, he instead hits me with a 1-2 punch of accusing me of using convex and flat top buttons and "beats pro" headphones.  :scared GASP! X2 must have seen some of my past project photos, saw that they had Concave buttons, and knew that I was secretly covering up for my love for the flat top. Nooooo! :cry: Flat top, our secret love has been exposed!

No, this is obviously not a diversion tactic because X2 could never be wrong. I mean, we have been talking about headphones this whole time, right?

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2014, 11:53:02 am »
Wow....X2 has been spewing a lot of crap this weekend. I really missed out, didn't I?  ::)

Here's a recap:

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2014, 11:55:09 am »
Wow....X2 has been spewing a lot of crap this weekend. I really missed out, didn't I?  ::)

Here's a recap:



 :lol With a dose of:


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2014, 12:04:16 am »
 Its funny..  but you do know that the Japanese SNK cabinets for Neo Geo..  as far as I can tell, have a different button layout that many of the US cabinets:

http://home.insightbb.com/~ecousticforkris/neo29.htm



 And in fact, Ive found US cabinets, with that same exact layout..  3 buttons in a row (SF style), with the 4th button supposedly to be operated with the thumb.

 Even more funny is that  SNK were pretty much clueless about controllers.   Look to the many versions of home NeoGeo controllers... which are mostly all 'Whack'... as well as being completely different from each other.  Theres no standards.  Its like completely random...

   SNK Boss:  "Heya Joe..  how about you design the new home controller today?" 

 Joe:  "Umm.. Im just a Sales Rep.  I know nothing about controllers ."
 SNK:  "Thats ok... we dont either.   Carl's out on surgery leave..  so you will have to do.  Besides.. Carl's controller was highly criticized..  and he was supposed to know what he was doing..."

 
 Being that SNK USA was even more clueless than its Japanese Counterparts..  they probably changed the USA button layouts.  Then again, these layouts may have been blank.. for the Ops to cut them out.    There are US versions with the same Jap layout..   and some that have a different .. more curved layout.   All over the Map.



 Heres why Japanese probably switched to flat top buttons.   To be able to do dumb stuff like this Pic.

 Note the positions of the fingertip centers.  In order for this guy to fit his fingers on all buttons, his middle fingers have to rest on the very top edge of the buttons,  While the pinky & Thumb..  are close to falling off the bottom edges of the buttons.

 The spacing is also horrible..  as you can see he's  "Eagle Clawing'  very widespread..  just to do this.  Which will be quite straining.

 Also note the horizontal positions of his fingers...   Some are near the middle, some the edges.  Its all over the place.


 Buttons tend to be less reactive on the edges.   And in the case of Concave buttons.. they are extremely uncomfortable to rest and press on the raised lip edges.   They also dont have as smooth of travel, when pressing the edges.  And when the button slams into contact..  your fingertips that Are on the edges.. get a heavy shock force, with the edge acting like a dull axe head.


 So, it certain was my Assumption you,  Vigo,  ... or anyone whom uses a non-standard Curve layout,..   to have Flat or Convex buttons.   And, if you dont..  then you are even more the fool, IMO.   But worse is the fact that with such a layout.. its Never going to fit everyones various hand sizes correctly.

 This is why this style was never widely used in the best days of times, in the arcades.

 When NG came out.. arcades were already well dying out..   and it was due to idiotic decisions like the Neo's button arrangement.

 The Standard SF layout worked far better.   And with 4 buttons, most of their games would be far more easy to deal with, using a 2x2 matrix of close-together buttons...  Ala Tekken.


 Now, I did like a handful of Neo Games.  But I never did like the control layout..   and I felt that while Samuri Showdown was a bit of fun..  it was just too simple of a game for my tastes.   Especially when you think about SFII as a baseline...  It was a big step backwards.

 My Fav game was probably Magician Lord, because of its cool theme.. and really great graphics.  The speed of the movement was good.  The soundtrack was cool.   Sadly, the games graphics got boring as later levels came on.  Almost like they ran over-budget.. and put in a bunch of generic tilework.


Dedicated Neo Geo 2 slot


Wow.  That harsh angle, would cause your elbow to stick way out.   Incrediblly idiotic design.
And the gamepad?   Why no 4 in a row?   :P



6 Buttons?  Photoshopped  ?  :P


What?  Another 3-in-a-row  style?   Wheres the BS curve?


« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 12:23:32 am by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2014, 08:46:13 am »
You really break that Neo-Geo layout down like it was a Zapruder film, don't you? Despite your theories, in practice it's honestly not a bad layout. It does what it needs to do. 90% of the time you only need the first three buttons and the fourth, when needed, is within an easy reach. It's arcade gaming not brain surgery.

And if it's causing fatigue, it's because you're playing too much. Go outside.  ;)


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2014, 09:56:59 am »
You know... that was the damndest thing about NeoGeo games.  Most of them complied with the JAMMA standard, but I -very- rarely saw generic conversions.  They wasted a lot of money on those fourth buttons....


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2014, 11:08:18 am »
:blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:
It's possible you've had enough Internet for today.
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2014, 05:50:18 pm »
says this:
Well, I cant reply too all this lunacy.  Its a waste of time really.

Then posts a wall of text




On top the actual topic and question, how do I get my 6 button fix: the hidden button idea wasn't that bad to get 6 buttons out.  What if, on the top of the cp, you could hack some buttons to be undermounted on a block of wood that is pivot hinged.  I'm sure there is a spring press release or something to expose them if truly needed.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 05:58:29 pm by zanna5910 »

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2014, 11:23:53 am »
Barring fancy solutions like swappable panels or “themed” cabinets, a higher-than-aesthetically-optimal button count is, unfortunately, a necessary evil if you want flexibility in a general-purpose emulation rig.   

I think most of us here agree that seeing others enjoy the fruits of our labor is a big factor in our enjoyment of this hobby.  I never play fighters, personally… but nonetheless,  using 6-button layouts has been an easy choice for me because, due to the general age range of me and my friends, almost every single guest I’ve ever had over who has shown the slightest interest in playing MAME has asked to play SF2 within the first 5 minutes of seeing the cabinet(s).  I think telling them they’d have to wing it with fewer than 6 buttons would probably be enough of a drag to negate any inner-child giddiness that bubbled to the surface at the realization they were about to play SF2 for free. 

I know it would for me, anyway.  I’d liken it to listening to a nostalgic song, but having instruments missing from the recording.  I’d sooner not bother, and just wait for an opportunity to listen to the song in all its glory.   

To each their own of course, but if I had only 4 buttons available and absolutely had to play a fighter, I’d play Tekken 2. 

I’ve yet to see anybody be confused or intimidated by the presence of 6 buttons per side. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2014, 11:33:58 am »
I’ve yet to see anybody be confused or intimidated by the presence of 6 buttons per side.

I always hear talk of people getting confused but my cabinet has no admin functions and nobody gets anything mixed up.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2015, 04:15:59 pm »
I am SOOO glad that I chose this as my first thread to read upon coming back. Made me feel like I never left. Mal --  :applaud:

Is "Xiaou2" still being autocensored?
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2015, 04:35:22 pm »
Welcome back, CheffoJeffo.   ;D


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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2015, 05:47:10 pm »
For those of you just joining us the original question was:
Is there a way LeChuck can make use of 4 buttons to play 6 button SF type games, taking into consideration that he doesn't play them often?

Possible answers:
  • Foot pedal buttons are not a good idea
  • Super Mario Keigel edition is a thing
  • Headphones today suck, especially beats
  • Malenko can effectively shorten a x2  wall of post to two sentences or less
  • Shoulder buttons aren't made from shoulders
  • Chance posts kittens
  • TL/DR
  • In depth analysis of Neo Geo button layout

I think I got almost everything. This is likely the most off topic post I have ever read in here.  :applaud:



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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2015, 05:49:20 pm »
I am SOOO glad that I chose this as my first thread to read upon coming back. Made me feel like I never left. Mal --  :applaud:

Is "Xiaou2" still being autocensored?

Yes because Saint loves Chad and Xiaou2
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2015, 05:51:22 pm »
For those of you just joining us the original question was:
Is there a way LeChuck can make use of 4 buttons to play 6 button SF type games, taking into consideration that he doesn't play them often?

Possible answers:
  • Malenko can effectively shorten a x2  wall of post to two sentences or lessNo matter how much Xiaou2 writes, it isn't worth more than a sentence or two.

FTFY

I think I got almost everything. This is likely the most off topic post I have ever read in here.  :applaud:

Then I have been away too long.  ::)
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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2015, 05:23:19 pm »
Offer of cash money still stands for kegel controls. 

Hey cheffo!

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2015, 06:14:32 pm »
Hey cheffo!

 :cheers:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2015, 12:46:43 am »
Welcome back Cheffo!  It's been a while!

DeL
Stop by my Youtube channel and leave a comment:

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2015, 08:56:19 am »
I skipped over all the drama  ::)

What's the primary issue with 4+ buttons? Visual clutter? Or confusion about which buttons a particular game actually uses?

I guess LEDs can sort of help with the latter, especially for new players. Obviously if you are familiar with a game confusion isn't an issue at all.

For the former, I want to see an automated control panel with disappearing motorized buttons. Buttons not used by the current game are pulled control panel and the resulting hole is closed by sliding a metal plate in its place.

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2015, 01:19:24 pm »
I skipped over all the drama  ::)

Then you missed the best part of the thread. 

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Re: Too many buttons!
« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2015, 02:39:45 pm »
What's the primary issue with 4+ buttons?

My take on it was that since he typically didn't use more than 4 buttons he wanted to know what it would be like to try and play some 6 button games with only 4. Hilarity ensued.
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