Too many buttons!

[Le Chuck]

The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me.  Some builds I don't put that many for sure and customers that want to play the fighters on the build expect a MK or SFII layout - and the customer is always/mostly somewhat rightish so that's not what this is about. 

This is about me, this guy.  This guy is tired of so many damn buttons.  Four button panels would be ideal - but how do I still get my SF/MvsC/MK fix?  I've thought about just eliminating WP/WK and going M and H, I'm not a competition player by any means but I don't want to lose valuable functionality.  I know on SFIV you can pretty much clean up with three buttons (due to the combination "cheats").

So...anybody done this, or something similar?  I've thought about going through move lists and seeing what can be eliminated and try to whittle down the requirement, maybe use SFII, MvsC, and MKII as the baseline set; but all I've done is think about it. 

[wp34]

I don't have an answer for you but I agree. I put six buttons on my cp just in case we wanted to play SF.  But the reality is I really prefer SF on the SNES so I doubt it will get a lot of play.  In the end I did ditch the seventh button that was in my original design having never been a big Neo Geo fan. 

[Malenko]

crude example:

for street fighter, in mame , set button 1 as weak punch, set button 2 as medium punch, set fierce punch as button 1 + button 2


theoretically that will work, but its not without its own draw backs, like you'd be unable to do Zangief's lariat and any other moves that require all 3 punches. I guess you could shoe horn in some of the early SF gamesbut I wouldnt make a 4 button panel with SF in mind. Eliminating any button would be heaps of trouble for the VS series, it affects tags, supers, combos, and cross over supers. It'd be tough to play MKII missing a punch, a kick, or most importantly block.

[Le Chuck]

crude example:

for street fighter, in mame , set button 1 as weak punch, set button 2 as medium punch, set fierce punch as button 1 + button 2


theoretically that will work, but its not without its own draw backs, like you'd be unable to do Zangief's lariat and any other moves that require all 3 punches. I guess you could shoe horn in some of the early SF gamesbut I wouldnt make a 4 button panel with SF in mind. Eliminating any button would be heaps of trouble for the VS series, it affects tags, supers, combos, and cross over supers. It'd be tough to play MKII missing a punch, a kick, or most importantly block.

Yeah, the SF moves are almost the easiest to shoehorn.  The vs really makes use of all six to get the range of combos/tags/etc like you said.  If I was building a dedicated fighter it'd need the full tally but for occasional play I wonder if I can find that sweet spot of eliminating some weak combos in favor of others that would let me get the button count down. 

In MK how much would I lose if I combo'd the block?  LP/LK for instance...or all four at once?

I don't have an answer for you but I agree. I put six buttons on my cp just in case we wanted to play SF.  But the reality is I really prefer SF on the SNES so I doubt it will get a lot of play.  In the end I did ditch the seventh button that was in my original design having never been a big Neo Geo fan. 

I love the SNK games which is why 4 is such a sweet spot for me, but I get crazy hankerings for fighters sometimes, not enough for a dedicated fighter cab tho and I am sick of adding it on just for the times when I get the itch.   

[Malenko]

MK1 would be playable of all 4 buttons equalled block , only moves you'd lose would be Johnny cages nut punch and Sonya's leg grab

MKII  would be a lot trickier and UMK3 would be extremely difficult

[yotsuya]

[eds1275]

I think you must just stop playing Street Fighter. You didn't specify which, but my favs are the alphas and MVC - and you can't do the super jumps or power moves without the buttons.

[yotsuya]

BTW, I hear you, LC. I'd go four buttons on my main MAME as well, but there's **just** enough friends and family that like SF and MK that I have to keep them on. Would never do 7 or 8, though. If I want to play console games, I'll plug in a console controller.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I think it REALLY depends on whether it's a horizontal or vertical setup.  For horizontal I vote 6 buttons.  For Vertical, no more than 3.  ( 2 should suffice for classics, but some shmups require 3 ).

DeLuSioNaL29

[Generic Eric]

BTW, I hear you, LC. I'd go four buttons on my main MAME as well, but there's **just** enough friends and family that like SF and MK that I have to keep them on. Would never do 7 or 8, though. If I want to play console games, I'll plug in a console controller.

7 has been a hassled.  Used a controller.

I think this realization is part of the journey.  Discovering the truth by doing despite how obvious the proof may be.

*shrug*

Maybe, one day I'll have need for a fighter cab.  This cab right know though, I'm gonna redrill my CP.  7 buttons are 3 too many.

[shponglefan]

As a big Capcom fighting game fan, I would want all 6 buttons in there.  They are needed especially to have full control over all the special moves.  For example, it's nice to be able to dictate the height of Guile's flash kick or speed of Ryu/Ken's hadoukens, etc.

Personally, I really like the 7 button Capcom/Neo-Geo hybrid layout.

But 4 buttons will still get you 90% of games and be functional for Capcom fighters, just not ideal.  To each their own.

[Malenko]

I think you must just stop playing Street Fighter. You didn't specify which, but my favs are the alphas and MVC - and you can't do the super jumps or power moves without the buttons.

Super Jump can also be done by moving the stick down then up quickly with no charge.

[Xiaou2]

One of my Fav. fighters is Killer Instinct.   Its a game that a lot of people don't 'get'...  unless they are at first familiar with Street Fighter II... and even then, the new combo system can take a little to understand.  But once you do get it... its so much more rewarding than most, if not all, other fighters.   One reason being.. is the shear freedom of combo creations.  Especially when you factor in 'broken-combos' (combos without  "auto-hit specials"  in them)

 To make things even more interesting..  they added some bonus stuff... such as holding down a button while doing a combo... and release that button as an 'ender'..   which will increase the speed of the ender, as well as the damage levels.  Its not easy to do.. but its quite awesome.. especially if you have Shadow-Power.

 You simply could not control this game without all 6 buttons.   Especially if you wanted to do things like the special tricks.


 Also, anyone whom plays fighters, isn't going to want a compromise.  For example, you could program a button to do a special move, or an automatic combination... but that's 'cheating'.   The thing is.. the games balance depends on things like the time it actually takes to do the move with the stick and buttons..  as well as the skill required in the exact timing while under pressure.

 So, in short, its Not too many buttons.   Its the exact amount needed to get the job done right.


 Imagine if you had to fly a plane..  but someone complained there were too many gauges, and controls.   Do you rip them all out because of 'clutter'  ?    I think not.

 Yes, the customer Is always right... unless they are asking for a curved button layout 

---

 If you don't mind half-***ing it for yourself... make foot buttons for the 'high-power' buttons.  Your foot wont be nearly as fast or have the precision of your fingers.. but maybe it would be interesting regardless.

 Similarly, block  &  run  buttons in MK's  could be used like this as well.
Though probably would be way too slow in reaction time to be useful...

[Malenko]

One of my Fav. fighters is Killer Instinct.   Its a game that a lot of people don't 'get'...  unless they are at first familiar with Street Fighter II... and even then, the new combo system can take a little to understand.  But once you do get it... its so much more rewarding than most, if not all, other fighters.   One reason being.. is the shear freedom of combo creations.  Especially when you factor in 'broken-combos' (combos without  "auto-hit specials"  in them)

 To make things even more interesting..  they added some bonus stuff... such as holding down a button while doing a combo... and release that button as an 'ender'..   which will increase the speed of the ender, as well as the damage levels.  Its not easy to do.. but its quite awesome.. especially if you have Shadow-Power.

 You simply could not control this game without all 6 buttons.   Especially if you wanted to do things like the special tricks.


 Also, anyone whom plays fighters, isn't going to want a compromise.  For example, you could program a button to do a special move, or an automatic combination... but that's 'cheating'.   The thing is.. the games balance depends on things like the time it actually takes to do the move with the stick and buttons..  as well as the skill required in the exact timing while under pressure.

 So, in short, its Not too many buttons.   Its the exact amount needed to get the job done right.


 Imagine if you had to fly a plane..  but someone complained there were too many gauges, and controls.   Do you rip them all out because of 'clutter'  ?    I think not.

 Yes, the customer Is always right... unless they are asking for a curved button layout 

---

 If you don't mind half-***ing it for yourself... make foot buttons for the 'high-power' buttons.  Your foot wont be nearly as fast or have the precision of your fingers.. but maybe it would be interesting regardless.

 Similarly, block  &  run  buttons in MK's  could be used like this as well.
Though probably would be way too slow in reaction time to be useful...

Free translation / making it succinct :

Despite being specifically asked about SF and MK, I'm going to talk about Killer Instinct. 4 buttons wouldn't work for this game. LC, you are not allowed to have this opinion about there being too many buttons because I dictate that if you play fighting games you must like at least 6 buttons. Sorry, not sorry. In an attempt to be funny, I will suggest you put buttons near your feet and use those instead of having them on your actual control panel. In an effort to make my post more verbose I will also suggest the SF kick buttons near your feet could be used for running and blocking for Mortal Kombat, see its funny cause you kick and run with your feet. Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

[Vigo]

I totally agree that 6 buttons is too many. Let the 4 button Renaissance begin!

Curious, any idea on the list of non-fighter games "lost" when going to 4 buttons?

Maybe you can make an arcade equivalent of shoulder buttons. Put a couple smaller buttons (20-25mm) above your regular controls for those certain special use situations. Moving buttons 5+6 out of the way and giving them less real estate might conquer the awkward feeling you get when playing Gauntlet with 6 buttons. Might make playing the occasional SNES game on your machine more fun as well.

[yotsuya]

Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.

[Vigo]

Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.

That cab better be titled "The Cock-blocker"

[yotsuya]

Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

I suggest a button at the groin level, which you thrust into when you want to block. Problem solved.

That cab better be titled "The Cock-blocker"

Fake Rep for you!

[pbj]

For Mortal Kombat on a 4 button panel, I just remapped Start -> Block.

For SF2, I just got rid of Jab and Short which nobody ever uses.  Ever.


 

[shponglefan]

I totally agree that 6 buttons is too many. Let the 4 button Renaissance begin!

Curious, any idea on the list of non-fighter games "lost" when going to 4 buttons?

There's a Capcom beat-em-up that uses 6 buttons... can't remember the name off hand...

[shponglefan]

For SF2, I just got rid of Jab and Short which nobody ever uses.  Ever.

But then how will people ---smurfette--- slap opponents when playing as Chun-li? 

[leapinlew]

I suggest you build a control panel with 12 buttons per, and then after a few months make it 6. It'll feel like you have less buttons.

6 buttons is where it's at?

[Jack Burton]

Forget about Street Fighter, MK, and Killer Instinct.

There are tons of Neo Geo fighting games that require only four buttons.

Or just build another cab

[RandyT]

I think it REALLY depends on whether it's a horizontal or vertical setup.  For horizontal I vote 6 buttons.  For Vertical, no more than 3.  ( 2 should suffice for classics, but some shmups require 3 ).

I think this is the key.  Would mean having a couple of machines to cover the bases, but that's not usually a problem around here.

I know I'd hate to feel like playing a game, and then realize I didn't have enough buttons on a machine which was otherwise capable.  I also agree that 6 seems to be the sweet spot.  The only real reason for 7, is to replicate the NG layout with the bottom row and the offset lower button, but this can be accommodated just about as well with the 6 button layout.

[heyyouguys]

What games actually use all 8 buttons? Or is it more of putting 4 in a row and just having the room for 4 buttons below it?


Was looking at slagcoin button layouts and was curious ( as I'm trying to figure button layout for bartop).

[yotsuya]

You only need 8 buttons if you are going to play newer console games - then you'll spend half your time cussing yourself out because it was a bad idea. I'm sorry, but on the whole, it just doesn't translate well to arcade controllers.

[Malenko]

What games actually use all 8 buttons?

The need for six buttons, or even five, has always bothered me.

[Le Chuck]

I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

[yotsuya]

I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

If you took MY advice, you could invest in a Real Doll^TM and see where that takes you.

[BadMouth]

What games actually use all 8 buttons? Or is it more of putting 4 in a row and just having the room for 4 buttons below it?


Was looking at slagcoin button layouts and was curious ( as I'm trying to figure button layout for bartop).

slagcoin is geared toward the fightstick crowd.
Commercially available fightsicks and fightpads usually have 8 buttons.
This is the accepted standard on modern console or Steam games.

While you can get by with only 6 on all the current PC fighters, some require you to have all 8 mapped before it will let you exit the remapping screen.
Games like Injustice incorporate "quick time events" that require you to press a particular button when prompted.
I don't know if it utilizes all 8, but future games might.  It sucks playing through those when you're buttons aren't labeled.

It drives me crazy how often seemingly simple games on Steam will require an absurd number of buttons.
Instead of having one action button, you've got separate buttons to pick up objects, talk, hack and slash.
If a platformer or hack 'n slash game requires more than 3 buttons, it's too much of a hassle.

For MAME or any other arcade emulator, you'll never need more than 6.

I currently have 7 for the sake of having the Neo-Geo four in a row.

[BadMouth]

I love where this thread is headed. If I take the x2 route I should get one of those kungfu dummies and hook up buttons so I can fight and practice my toe stab kata.

If you took MY advice, you could invest in a Real Doll^TM and see where that takes you.

Is the Star Wars speeder bike/R2D2 Pedestal/morphing CP build getting a Boonga Boonga controls added?

[Le Chuck]

@PBJ - I'll have to give that a shot, if I can get a good selection of tags and moves in MvsC I'll probably do that

@AlltheFighterFanBoizwonderingwhyI'ddothis - fighters are an occasional fling with me.  I know a few moves, can fight the AI, but don't care to be competitive against the hoes at home that know their craft.  Big ups to the tech fighters out there, that ain't me. 

@Yotsuya - I need a real doll.  Do they come in the male gender?  I'd like to get my wife into gaming as well. 

@BM - well naturally the speeder/R2/pedestal/morphing power ranger is getting boonga boonga controls added.  They go in between the tomtom drums and on top of the DDR pad.  Doi.    Also, totally with you on current designers over buttoning their games.  I really steer clear of games that need that many.  Sure there's a few out there worth the trouble (Parappa the Rappa I'm looking at you) but mostly it's more trouble than it's often worth. 

@Vigo - I can only think of probably 30 games I like that I need 6 buttons for (and thats including all the different SFs) but really I only enjoy maybe five of them regularly. 

@Randy - on my vert builds I max at three and it's glorious 

[Hoopz]

This thread needs more Gymkata:

[Xiaou2]

Free translation / making it succinct :

Despite being specifically asked about SF and MK, I'm going to talk about Killer Instinct. 4 buttons wouldn't work for this game. LC, you are not allowed to have this opinion about there being too many buttons because I dictate that if you play fighting games you must like at least 6 buttons. Sorry, not sorry. In an attempt to be funny, I will suggest you put buttons near your feet and use those instead of having them on your actual control panel. In an effort to make my post more verbose I will also suggest the SF kick buttons near your feet could be used for running and blocking for Mortal Kombat, see its funny cause you kick and run with your feet. Joke doesnt really work for block but hey, lets be honest it wasnt funny in the first place.

 I give it a 7 on the Drama Scale.  Good work.


 I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

 The idea of shoulder buttons on an arcade makes Zero sense.   If you feel you can play with a Snes controller... then why not put a Snes jack on the cab?   Personally, the shoulder buttons were far too slow and awkward for me to utilize in KI, or SFII.

 If you put smaller buttons in on only the two.. it will look odd, and may feel odd as well.

 If space is a concern..  Nake the button spacing tight.  Just barely enough so that you can still turn the button nuts without getting stuck.   You can even place the buttons closer in proximity to the stick.

 Or..   make or buy smaller buttons for All of the buttons.  In this way, you will have reduced space, same feel across the board, same finger positions for precise no-look activation, and a uniform look... as well as retained functionality.

 Ive always thought the standard arcade buttons were a little on the large size personally.


 As for SFII, Its been a long time since Ive played..  but I believe there were instances in combinations.. where you could use the quicks to good advantage.   However, its far more needed in other fighters.. such as KI.   Which, once you get used to its system of combos, is well worth the efforts and extra button space.

 As for MKIII..  I cant imagine trying to play it without the run and block being easily and quickly accessible.  That game is lightning fast..  far faster than any SF game..  requiring very quick reflexes at times.

 
 And finally, when many people play games from their past..  they want to play correctly.. and not with some hack.  For example..  Playing Defender with an 8 way joystick without a reverse button... doesnt feel right.  Playing Asteroids Deluxe with a joystick, without the full leaf button setup... also feels wrong.   Sometimes these hacks can give you an edge... and to a fan of these games.. they dont want that 'cheat' methodology.    Other times, hacks can be far more cumbersome, making it harder to play accurately..  and ticking off a good player, due to their inability to get the game to do what they can easily do on the real controls.

 There is also the level of comfort involved.. as well as the look and feel.  Which is why many will have at least one real Leaf button on their CP...  for far faster fire rates on classic games.  Theres also far less fatigue when using them in rapidfire games.. compared to microswitches.

 Im being genuine with my advice and ideas.  But do as you please.  Its your hardware, and your decision to cripple your experience.. rather than rise to the challenges, with time and efforts.

 If its mere construction time on sellable builds.. then simply charge more, for your additional time and efforts.

 You cant force people to cripple their game experience..  and expect them to be happy about it.   But, you always have the option of not accepting their orders too.

 Furthermore, as much as Malenko may find foot controls laughable..   they are used regularly in various fields and games.  Everything from Driving vechicles, to running mechanical presses / machines,  sewing machines, organs, guitar pedals, flight controls, and far more.

 And yes.. it would be interesting (I have thought about it), to make a kick/punch system for game input.  It would give quite the workout.  heh    I believe its been done.. by a few different companies in different methodologies.

 (Plus.. physical contact is far more fun than swinging a controller through the air in empty space.. and never registering any actual feedback + poor control to boot)

 +11  for the  Gymkata  clip         I remember seeing that Ages ago as a kid.
Cheesy and unrealistic,but it was fun back then.  Not sure I could say the same now.  Experience in combat really changes your perspective and enjoyment levels of things like this.

[DaveMMR]

I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

Or, three better options:
1. Build multiple panels you can swap.
2. Multiple cabinets with themed control sets.
3. Do without those games.

Because the best thing for someone who DOES NOT want clutter is to jam driving pedals on the front of the cabinet when there's no steering wheel.  (And if you have a steering wheel then (a) it's a driving cab, not a fighting-game cab - NON-ISSUE or (b) you have removable panels and one of them is a steering wheel and another one can be a fighter panel so again - NON-ISSUE.)

I'm sorry, I'm coming off mean but you're a stickler for proper controls and I can totally dig that so I can't understand why you're trying to sell him on the "play with your feet" method of saving space on the control panel. 

Sorry for that outburst - I need a nap.  Carry on.

[DeLuSioNal29]

I've chosen the second one (Multiple cabinets with themed control sets) and never turned back.  I'm even thinking of building a new widescreen cab for the newer Steam games and such and removing steam from my 4-player cab.

[Xiaou2]

I wasnt joking about foot controls.   If someone doesnt like clutter on the CP, one can put pedals on the floor.. which can also double as gas/brake for racing games.   As well as for possible alternative controls for rare / expensive / unique controllers.   Such as using it as a replacement for up/down in the aiming of Discs of Tron.   Its never going to be great...  but playing a game without the intended buttons isnt going to be great either.

Or, three better options:
1. Build multiple panels you can swap.
2. Multiple cabinets with themed control sets.
3. Do without those games.

Because the best thing for someone who DOES NOT want clutter is to jam driving pedals on the front of the cabinet when there's no steering wheel.  (And if you have a steering wheel then (a) it's a driving cab, not a fighting-game cab - NON-ISSUE or (b) you have removable panels and one of them is a steering wheel and another one can be a fighter panel so again - NON-ISSUE.)

I'm sorry, I'm coming off mean but you're a stickler for proper controls and I can totally dig that so I can't understand why you're trying to sell him on the "play with your feet" method of saving space on the control panel. 

Sorry for that outburst - I need a nap.  Carry on.

 Dave, your entitled to your Opinion..  But your Opinions do not suit everyone.

 1) Theres no reason why one cant put a spinner on a control panel.  Either on top, or on the very Front of the cabinet, for use as a driving machine, without getting in the way of joystick gaming.

 2)  Pedals can easily be slid in and out of a pull out or flip down section of the cabinet.

 3)  Multiple panels means more Money, times, energy, and storage space.  More encoders. More wire.  More soldiering. More artwork costs.  More chance of damages during swaps.  More time wasted changing panels instead of playing games.   As well as poor connector issues that tend to be a hassle + will likely break over time.. and have to be re-wired.

 4)  Not everyone has the Space to house multiple cabinets... let alone a rack of specialty control panels.

 5)  Its not for You to tell Me, or ANYONE else, what games they should do without.

 6)  While Themeing can be nice...  it doesnt make things play better... and the extra money spent in artwork, could better be used to by more controllers, or other desired things in life.  Even pay the bills.   Looks are not the highest priority on  "everyone's"  list... even if they are on YOURS.   

 (Also note, that considering how many cabs Ive seen that have changed and rebuilt over time.. and all that artwork was flushed...  its often been a waste.   And..  many of the theme's have turned out atrocious, due to the fact that not everyone is a great artist.  Poor color choices, arrangements, non-matching patchworked clip-art + mixed with other styles and non matched color palettes..      I tend not to say anything, because its their creations.. but inside, Im "face-palming" )


 The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

 As for the rest..  Im not trying to sell anyone on anything.  Ive stated the positives and negatives of the proposed solutions to his idea to cripple his gaming controls... as well as ideas on maintaining them, using such things as smaller buttons all around.  Ive also stated that its my opinion that you cant play certain games well without the right controls.

 But I also offered solutions to try, as well as unique ideas and methods.  For example, its great to own a Discs of Tron spinner.. but not everyone can afford and or find one.  Yet a pedal set could make the game very playable with a standard set of generic / cheap controls.


 Nighty Night.

[DaveMMR]

The only "Issue", is you thinking your  "opinion"  is "right".   Its just what suits you.  It doesnt mean its right, nor wrong.  It works for you.. and on the levels that YOU care about.   People are different, and have different needs, wants, desires, and resources.   Your OCD and comical idea that your opinions are "Correct"  and are universal fitting truths.. are in fact quite oppressively "wrong".

Heh, you really don't have to spend half your lecture reminding the class what opinions are. I understand what I say cannot be used as a source for Wikipedia articles. Thanks!

Anyway, I think you're missing the point of the thread. I assume LC is looking for a cleaner panel. Adding fold-away pedals and crotch spinners does not a clean panel make. (I could be wrong, maybe it'll be more pleasant looking. Who knows?)

If you want to play DoT with your feet or Paperboy by scooting your ass across the carpet or Pac Man by doing the Macarena, go nuts. But there's nothing wrong with just not being able to play that game. If someone really wanted to play it, they'd just stick proper controls on the panel, or another panel.

[Hoopz]

crotch spinners does not a clean panel make.

That'd a damn fine custom title for DaveMMR.   

[DaveMMR]

crotch spinners does not a clean panel make.

That'd a damn fine custom title for DaveMMR.