Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

[jimmer]

Just downloaded Mame the other day and got it running, this is my first panel project.

First off I'm just going to build a panel to sit on my computer desk. Maybe a full or desktop cabinet will come later. If that does happen I can see myself building a modular panel. But for the moment I think I've got a neat plan for a quite simple and cheap panel design. what you see below is a Multi Williams layout plus a bit more.

On the left is a (very) short 4way joystick, I will trim the body etc to get Reverse in nice and close. It's a 4way rather than 2 so it can be used for other games that like a 4way (Pengo for me, not Pacman). To keep cost down I plan to use a cheap stick, this one unless I hear bad things about it http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Short-Shaft-Ball-Top-Arcade-Joystick.html

The other 2 joysticks are 8way on longer shafts. Again I plan to use the same cheap sticks, if they don't work out I will look to upgrade them depending on if I think they are spoiling my Robotron play. http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Long-Shaft-Ball-Top-Arcade-Joystick.html

The extra button by reverse is for left/right control on eg Asteroids, Space invaders.

I've put Hyperspace above Fire, but I could ditch that and use the button by reverse.

Any comments?
Are there any other buttons I should add to expand the choice of games? (I'm not bothered with fighting games)

[jimmer]

hmmm, OK not much interest so far.

How about the best buttons for Defender then?
Especially for the Fire button?


Also how about layout?
Can the standard layout be improved upon? or is this considered heretical

Because my hands are closer together than standard the buttons will be skewed anyway.

See below for 2 ideas.
One is standardish layout but more ergonomic.
Second has thrust under my thumb. I never did get good at rapid fire whilst thrusting with my 1st finger.

[CoryBee]

I initially would say that choose whatever fits you best. But them some odd button layouts.....

Since I play mostly fighters and love the layout in general. Fits me pretty well no matter what game I play. I use this layout:

[BadMouth]

Here's my take.  I NEO GEO'd it up. 

Hyperspace button would be the color of the background so it doesn't stand out and positioned so you could use your thumb,
but your hand wouldn't touch it when playing robotron.

Make sure you have enough room to the left of the 4-way that your hand is comfortable resting there.
Might consider going a few inches wider to give you more room there and more distance between the robotron sticks.

I can't think of any games this wouldn't cover except for Mortal Kombat and the Capcom fighters (which you said you weren't interested in).

just my $.02

[CheffoJeffo]

I find the idea of an additional short 4-way intriguing for Defender/Stargate, but am not sure about overall MW functionality of your button layout.

I like the idea of having the 8-ways closer to proper centre for Robotron, but 2-player Joust isn't going to be fun with your layout.

I do like the left/right buttons for SI/Asteroids.

In any event, I applaud the route you are taking to find a set of control that plays what you want and goes beyond the same old SF-6/NG-7. 

[jimmer]

Nice colouring job

I haven't actually played robotron, but I was imagining that your arms wrists etc are off the panel. So I wasn't that bothered about having buttons under my wrist area on the more compact ideas.  If thats not right, then like you say I'll have to go wider.

Whether I choose to swap Thrust and Smart Bomb doesn't actually change the button layout (the difference before was whether Inviso is under my pinky, or whether it is left of my thumb). I've not played Stargate either, but I'm pretty sure it'll be OK on the right. 

Since the last post I have been considering a modular design, however now CheffoJeffo has commented with encouraging words, I shall continue with the dedicated Multi-Williams approach in this thread. You never know, someone else might want to try it.

Here is a new Design, providing 2player Joust and clearing buttons from under arms.

the 2 spare buttons are for fighting games. As drawn it is 550mm (21.5") wide.

edit:
player1 Flap is probably too close to player2 joystick. So panel could be made wider and/or use reverse for flap.

[jimmer]

And here is the modular version, for fight fans.
Simply replace the Defender joystick panel with another 7 buttons.

[yotsuya]

That's a pretty wicked arch on those 7 buttons there, bro.

[jimmer]

That's a pretty wicked arch on those 7 buttons there, bro.

That's where my fingers tips are!

[1500points]

Here is a MW layout that maintains close feel to real robo and defender/stargate layout.


you'll want leaf buttons to properly play joust and defender.
walk-through here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/homemadecontrolpaneltips/

[jimmer]

Brilliant.

Im glad to see you using the zippy joystick that I had more or less chosen already.

And pleased to get a recommendation for the buttons. I had seen those GoldLeaf buttons, but since I had no other info I had decided on convex. Now I'll go with the GoldLeafs though.

It's great to finally see the options are being narrowed down, so I can make a confident purchase and get on with it.

[1500points]

I highly recommend the goldleaf buttons.  They are sooo smooth.

That panel was designed specifically for an extreme robo/defender player in the UK who can do 10mil on Robo at max diff. and clock score on max diff on green roms on defender.  It took a long time to figure out the right layout where the robo stick location isn't affected by the defender stick.  and the joystick base didn't interfere with button placement.  I tried probably 10 different formats before that one settled.

I think I used a 1 inch rise from the front to the back of the panel which seemed about right as it sat on a desk.
have fun with the project, as it is only right if it feels perfect to you. 
cheers.

[jimmer]

I think I'll be going for sanwa or seinitsu buttons, because I'm pretty sure I want convex. Even though I've never used convex, and can hardly remember what concave arcade buttons feel like.

I think it's because I use 2 fingers for fire on Defender (Return on the keyboard). Is that bad? where are the videos of peoples hands when playing? I'd like to see that (like how they used to show video of rally driver's feet).

[PL1]

Don't forget that Paradise carries IL convex buttons here.



Scott

[jimmer]

Don't forget that Paradise carries IL convex buttons here.

Unless I can find it in UK or Europe, that will cost me as much as Sanwa/Seimitsu.

So, is it better for Defender than sanwa/seimitsu ?

I like the longer fixing length, but I prefer an internal centred switch. Why can't those GoldLeafs have convex tops! 

[PL1]

Unless I can find it in UK or Europe, that will cost me as much as Sanwa/Seimitsu.

Challenge accepted and met.   
http://www.gremlinsolutions.co.uk/products/happcompetitionpushbuttons.htm
http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Happ-Competition-Arcade-Button.html
http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_72&osCsid=j831q4rbjpatbl10k9rmuss176

So, is it better for Defender than sanwa/seimitsu ?

No idea -- just mentioning a possible option that might save you some work on routing your CP.  The button chart on Slagcoin implies that these are similar to the Happ Horizontal. (concave buttons)

I like the longer fixing length

That's why I figured I'd mention these as an option.

Why can't those GoldLeafs have convex tops!

Maybe Andy doesn't think the market is there for them or he's planning to roll them out later.   


Scott

[jimmer]

edit: deleted ramblings

decided:
1 short + 2 long zippy joysticks
1x minimusAVR
9x play buttons, 3x control

undecided:
Buttons, can't decide between:  GoldLeaf concave, IL Competiton Convex, Sanwa OBSN30 convex
At the moment GoldLeaf has it by a very small margin, I think.

If I choose Goldleafs I will get the 3 control buttons as IL convex, so I can try them out as fire buttons as well.



Latest layout,  colour scheme, and mounting plan attached.
Note that I will have my keyboard available at the same time, for other functions. I don't really need the 1P,2P,coin but might as well use up the 20 inputs on minimusAVR.

[leapinlew]

I've built 1 multi-williams machine and I sold it. Biggest issue was the reverse wasn't close enough to the joystick. I built a dedicated defender layout and I love it. I am using a genuine defender stick. The artwork is a little off on the lettering. I am going to order some new artwork and re-arrange the lettering so it fits under the buttons.

As far as I'm concerned, keep it simple. Keep it to Defender/Stargate. Build another machine for everything else. And use leafs for the buttons, anything else is a compromise.

[gatordad]

Here is mine

[jimmer]

Leapinlew, What distance is your reverse button offset from the joystick? (centreline to centreline)

Who knows what the orignal was?
Is the attached panel layout someones personal version, or a faithful drawing of the original?
It shows 1.75"(44mm)horizontal and 1.375"(35mm)vertical.
I'm not overly bothered about this info, as I'll put it where it feels good to me anyway (same as the other buttons), but it would be nice to know.

Also, what diameter ball was the original, and how far above the surface was it? This I would like to replicate.

I'm pretty happy that my multi layout doesn't compromise Defender at all, the 4way can even be switched to 2 way if I really want it to be more like the original.

[leapinlew]

Here is mine

Love it!

[Neverending Project]

Here is mine
...

Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.

[paigeoliver]

Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

As far as I'm concerned, keep it simple. Keep it to Defender/Stargate. Build another machine for everything else. And use leafs for the buttons, anything else is a compromise.

[jimmer]

Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

Compared to what? 30g Sanwa's or 150g Happs ?

[gatordad]

Here is mine
...

Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.

The cpo came oversized I had to trim it to fit, Don't know if it would fit a stargate panel though.
Ping Rikitiki aka Rich from
Thisoldgame, he sells them on his website
I have zero complaints, quality is top notch

[PL1]

Here is mine
...

Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.

If you're looking for a soft-copy, here's one that's really close.


Scott

[paigeoliver]

Just compared to every other machine I have ever played it on, which is mostly mame cabinets with the common happ buttons, although one of my multiwilliams had an non-happ brand us style button.

Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

Compared to what? 30g Sanwa's or 150g Happs ?

[jimmer]

OK,
I've decided to buy at least 1 (don't laugh) CLASSX trueleaf from groovygamegear.
just trying to work out if I can get 3,4,5, or 6 through customs without attracting all the import costs.

Anyone got pictures of CLASSX next to Goldleaf (installed preferably) ? as I will be mixing them in the same panel

[1500points]

the reverse button is 2 inches, on the vertical plane, from lever.  I had someone send me a picture of their real CP with a ruler to confirm when I was messing.

Getting ready to do a CP similar to Gatordad's with 2 wico opticals now.

[jimmer]

Getting ready to do a CP similar to Gatordad's with 2 wico opticals now.

Funny you should say that, my kit hasn't arrived yet but just last night I was wondering whether the extra 4way was going to be worth it. It's not so much the cost, but I do appreciate simplicity so the 3 joysticks doesn't quite satisfy me.

If I was doing a pretty panel (ie with graphics) I'd be even more keen to use just 2 joysticks for aesthetics.

[Xiaou2]

That's where my fingers tips are!

 But, thats not how you actually Push a button.   You finger tips will only be circular, when you hand is completely FLAT to
the table.    But if your hand is FLAT, how can you have any downforce leverage?

 Simple place your fingers on a normal flat keyboard in the home position of  asdf  and  jkl;   ,and you will see that not
only are all your fingers comfortably lined up, but that they are Bent at an angle.   That they all have great downforce
leverage.    That even if you extend to the upper letters, your finger angle is still very much VERTICAL.

 Flat layouts are Not ergonomic, because of this.   The only reason the Japanese had gotten partly around this, was to use
convex buttons.  IE: Buttons that were raised bumps, which added less need for vertical spring leverage.  Personally,
I cant stand the feel of them.   You can slip off them, as well as lose track of which buttons you are on.  They also are not
very comfortable.  And aside from all that... its still a poor performance, compared to downforce spring leverage.

 Try rapidfire shooting game, but keep your wrist and hand completely flat, and you will quickly find out.


 Also, if you are using Micros, instead of actual Leaf switch and leaf buttons... then you are also failing the point of a
Multi-Williams.   They simply do not provide the level of control,comfort, and non-fatigue, that Micros present.

 I think its nice you are thinking outside the typical box... but I also think you lack a little experience in the actual
hardware to make some key realizations, that would greatly effect your current designs.

 A side note:  Almost nothing Ive tried, plays Robotron well, except actual Wico Leaf Joysticks.  And IMO, Robotron
is far more gratifying game than Defender, or pretty much any game period.


 PS: I was one of many, who thought is was a good idea to curve a button layout.  It quickly got scrapped.
heh

[1500points]

the curved finger leverage thing is well discussed in training for classical guitar.

are you saying micro-switch buttons are better for a multi-williams?
defender is fatiguing trying to use micros. unless you are a master level defender player, your score will be greatly affected by trying to use micros.
you can't flap as fast or double flap on joust either which will affect you above wave 30, especially by wave 60.

robotron joysticks not feeling right with micros has more to do with the skill level of the player. a learning player will do better with wico leafs. a master player will do equally well with decent microswitch joysticks (I kinda like the zippyy's with no restrictor plate as an alternative here at home).
Robotron becomes more about player position on the screen, at the right times rather than flutter firing.
but if the player is OCD about the clicking noise of micros then it isn't going to be a good fit.

for the sake of discussion, I was obsessed with Robotron have played/owned about every platform and a huge variety of joysticks. so much so that I wrote a tutorial site and got the assistance of the Vid Kidz for details..... and it's bizarre to say but now that I'm learning Defender.  Defender is a more well-rounded game with more challenge.  Robotron is a linear gauntlet, Defender has myriad ways you can problem solve the chaos.  Don't count Defender out quite that fast as inferior. 

UPDATE- Here is a Defender strategy guide written in 1982 by Joystik's Doug Mahugh, edited by the Vid Kidz. Went unpublished until this month-  http://mahugh.com/2013/01/21/defender-the-last-word/

[jimmer]

I'll be using CLASSX true-leaf for rapid fire buttons. And I got some Goldleafs, and Sanwas for comparison.

In anticipation of possible slight alterations that might be needed I will build the first attempt with modular panels. This also means I can get straight onto playing Defender before I mount the Robotoron sticks.

I've not even played Robotron yet, but I'll worry about whether I need better joysticks later.

Sticks should arive tomorrow or next day. CLASSX are somewhere with Customs and Excise. If the CLASSX arrive late, I will be playing Defender with the Goldleafs until they arrive.

[jimmer]

UPDATE- Here is a Defender strategy guide written in 1982 by Joystik's Doug Mahugh, edited by the Vid Kidz. Went unpublished until this month-  http://mahugh.com/2013/01/21/defender-the-last-word/

thanks for that, I'll be reading it later.

[jimmer]

Even though my CLASSX True-leafs arrived today and I like them, I feel a little bummed because I have only just spotted you can add a Rollie leaf to a Happ competition convex. I would probably have chosen that over the CLASSX concave.

Ah well, I'll just say my panel is more authentic 

 

[jimmer]

Simple place your fingers on a normal flat keyboard in the home position of  asdf  and  jkl;   ,and you will see that not
only are all your fingers comfortably lined up, but that they are Bent at an angle.

I don't agree with this bit.   JKL is uncomfortable, HUIL is comfortable.

A side note:  Almost nothing Ive tried, plays Robotron well, except actual Wico Leaf Joysticks.  And IMO, Robotron
is far more gratifying game than Defender, or pretty much any game period.

I haven't even used them yet, but I'm already thinking about converting my Zippy sticks to leaf contacts. Looks like I'm getting sucked into this hobby.

[jimmer]

So here's an update. The picture shows where I am so far.

Buttons:

I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

On a cost & convenience basis for me in the UK, I would go with Goldleafs(concave) or Sanwa(convex) if starting again.

For the reverse button I haven't tried the others, but I was convinced that the Sanwa is best for this because it's convex and a bit bigger than the others (25mm vs 23mm)

Defender Up/Down (Ramblings):

Here I am still pondering the possibilities. The short zippy has quite a bit of travel [engages at 7mm travel (top of ball) and disengages at 5mm. So 14mm total travel for each change of direction]  and my initial impression was great dissapointment with the up/down control. Part of this was due to me having been playing on a keyboard where I can do very rapid up down whilst firing, which I just couldn't do with the stick.

I also tried with joystick left/right being defender Up/Down because I can do much quicker left/right wiggles than up down wiggles,  I didn't play long enough to get used to this and abandoned it because it would be too weird for other people.

I tried using the sanwas for up down (same fingers as I'm used to) and this was nice, just like on my keyboard. To use this configuration I needed another reverse button, and it would have been a lot of work to add it to the right of the sanwas, I could have used Inviso (under my pinky) but that would spoil stargate, hence the quick installation of reverse into my footrest.     

This got me to thinking about authenticity, and whether it was accceptable to use different controls to the originals. I'm sure I could get better scores using buttons and feet (with a bit of practice).

But in this thread I'll stick to the Multi-Williams (plus) panel idea and use a conventional control scheme. So today I played a bit more with the joystick and I'm starting to get a bit better with it. But I know it can be better so I'll be looking to buy another or modify this one.


Left/Right eg Galaxian

I found the zippy to be really bad for this compared to the Left/Right buttons. So a similar situation to up/down really.


4-way  Pengo

This felt OK. But maybe that's because I haven't played it (on keyboard) for 30 years.



Next up Robotron: Lets hope I find the longer zippys OK for this, not having played the game before I might have to just trust 1500points opinion that zippys are OK.

[BadMouth]

Please put down the crack pipe and stop angling your sticks.

[jimmer]

Please put down the crack pipe and stop angling your sticks.

That's a good spot     I wasn't going to mention it.

edit: well maybe not that good, I was looking at the shrunk picture 

[RandyT]

I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them)

I expect it will.  For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about .

Defender Up/Down (Ramblings):
Here I am still pondering the possibilities. The short zippy has quite a bit of travel [engages at 7mm travel (top of ball) and disengages at 5mm. So 14mm total travel for each change of direction]  and my initial impression was great dissapointment with the up/down control. Part of this was due to me having been playing on a keyboard where I can do very rapid up down whilst firing, which I just couldn't do with the stick.

I also tried with joystick left/right being defender Up/Down because I can do much quicker left/right wiggles than up down wiggles,  I didn't play long enough to get used to this and abandoned it because it would be too weird for other people.

...

Left/Right eg Galaxian

I found the zippy to be really bad for this compared to the Left/Right buttons. So a similar situation to up/down really.

Take the bottom plate off the Zippyy stick and adjust the levers on the switches.  They can be tweaked such that even a small movement of the stick actuates the switch.  I just did this recently for someone who ordered one for two-way operation, and it works very well.