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Author Topic: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.  (Read 22678 times)

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jimmer

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Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:25:15 pm »
Just downloaded Mame the other day and got it running, this is my first panel project.

First off I'm just going to build a panel to sit on my computer desk. Maybe a full or desktop cabinet will come later. If that does happen I can see myself building a modular panel. But for the moment I think I've got a neat plan for a quite simple and cheap panel design. what you see below is a Multi Williams layout plus a bit more.

On the left is a (very) short 4way joystick, I will trim the body etc to get Reverse in nice and close. It's a 4way rather than 2 so it can be used for other games that like a 4way (Pengo for me, not Pacman). To keep cost down I plan to use a cheap stick, this one unless I hear bad things about it http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Short-Shaft-Ball-Top-Arcade-Joystick.html

The other 2 joysticks are 8way on longer shafts. Again I plan to use the same cheap sticks, if they don't work out I will look to upgrade them depending on if I think they are spoiling my Robotron play. http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Long-Shaft-Ball-Top-Arcade-Joystick.html

The extra button by reverse is for left/right control on eg Asteroids, Space invaders.

I've put Hyperspace above Fire, but I could ditch that and use the button by reverse.

Any comments?
Are there any other buttons I should add to expand the choice of games? (I'm not bothered with fighting games)

« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:28:00 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2013, 10:43:20 am »
hmmm, OK not much interest so far.

How about the best buttons for Defender then?
Especially for the Fire button?


Also how about layout?
Can the standard layout be improved upon? or is this considered heretical >:D

Because my hands are closer together than standard the buttons will be skewed anyway.

See below for 2 ideas.
One is standardish layout but more ergonomic.
Second has thrust under my thumb. I never did get good at rapid fire whilst thrusting with my 1st finger.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 02:43:16 pm »
I initially would say that choose whatever fits you best. But them some odd button layouts.....

Since I play mostly fighters and love the layout in general. Fits me pretty well no matter what game I play. I use this layout:


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 04:14:49 pm »
Here's my take.  I NEO GEO'd it up.  :P

Hyperspace button would be the color of the background so it doesn't stand out and positioned so you could use your thumb,
but your hand wouldn't touch it when playing robotron.

Make sure you have enough room to the left of the 4-way that your hand is comfortable resting there.
Might consider going a few inches wider to give you more room there and more distance between the robotron sticks.

I can't think of any games this wouldn't cover except for Mortal Kombat and the Capcom fighters (which you said you weren't interested in).

just my $.02
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 04:35:27 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 06:46:04 pm »
I find the idea of an additional short 4-way intriguing for Defender/Stargate, but am not sure about overall MW functionality of your button layout.

I like the idea of having the 8-ways closer to proper centre for Robotron, but 2-player Joust isn't going to be fun with your layout.

I do like the left/right buttons for SI/Asteroids.

In any event, I applaud the route you are taking to find a set of control that plays what you want and goes beyond the same old SF-6/NG-7.  :applaud:

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 08:08:09 pm »
Nice colouring job :)

I haven't actually played robotron, but I was imagining that your arms wrists etc are off the panel. So I wasn't that bothered about having buttons under my wrist area on the more compact ideas.  If thats not right, then like you say I'll have to go wider.

Whether I choose to swap Thrust and Smart Bomb doesn't actually change the button layout (the difference before was whether Inviso is under my pinky, or whether it is left of my thumb). I've not played Stargate either, but I'm pretty sure it'll be OK on the right. 

Since the last post I have been considering a modular design, however now CheffoJeffo has commented with encouraging words, I shall continue with the dedicated Multi-Williams approach in this thread. You never know, someone else might want to try it.

Here is a new Design, providing 2player Joust and clearing buttons from under arms.

the 2 spare buttons are for fighting games. As drawn it is 550mm (21.5") wide.

edit:
player1 Flap is probably too close to player2 joystick. So panel could be made wider and/or use reverse for flap.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 08:39:29 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 08:37:54 pm »
And here is the modular version, for fight fans.
Simply replace the Defender joystick panel with another 7 buttons.




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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 11:47:22 pm »
That's a pretty wicked arch on those 7 buttons there, bro.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 10:01:13 am »
That's a pretty wicked arch on those 7 buttons there, bro.

That's where my fingers tips are!
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 11:36:07 am »
Here is a MW layout that maintains close feel to real robo and defender/stargate layout.


you'll want leaf buttons to properly play joust and defender.
walk-through here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/technical/gameplatforms/mame/homemadecontrolpaneltips/

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 02:06:50 pm »
Brilliant.

Im glad to see you using the zippy joystick that I had more or less chosen already.

And pleased to get a recommendation for the buttons. I had seen those GoldLeaf buttons, but since I had no other info I had decided on convex. Now I'll go with the GoldLeafs though.

It's great to finally see the options are being narrowed down, so I can make a confident purchase and get on with it.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 06:55:32 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 03:20:30 pm »
I highly recommend the goldleaf buttons.  They are sooo smooth.

That panel was designed specifically for an extreme robo/defender player in the UK who can do 10mil on Robo at max diff. and clock score on max diff on green roms on defender.  It took a long time to figure out the right layout where the robo stick location isn't affected by the defender stick.  and the joystick base didn't interfere with button placement.  I tried probably 10 different formats before that one settled.

I think I used a 1 inch rise from the front to the back of the panel which seemed about right as it sat on a desk.
have fun with the project, as it is only right if it feels perfect to you.  :)
cheers.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 04:36:41 pm »

I think I'll be going for sanwa or seinitsu buttons, because I'm pretty sure I want convex. Even though I've never used convex, and can hardly remember what concave arcade buttons feel like.

I think it's because I use 2 fingers for fire on Defender (Return on the keyboard). Is that bad? where are the videos of peoples hands when playing? I'd like to see that (like how they used to show video of rally driver's feet).
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 05:27:20 pm »
Don't forget that Paradise carries IL convex buttons here.



Scott

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 09:06:34 pm »
Don't forget that Paradise carries IL convex buttons here.

Unless I can find it in UK or Europe, that will cost me as much as Sanwa/Seimitsu.

So, is it better for Defender than sanwa/seimitsu ?

I like the longer fixing length, but I prefer an internal centred switch. Why can't those GoldLeafs have convex tops! 
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 09:35:38 pm »
Unless I can find it in UK or Europe, that will cost me as much as Sanwa/Seimitsu.
Challenge accepted and met.   ;D
http://www.gremlinsolutions.co.uk/products/happcompetitionpushbuttons.htm
http://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Happ-Competition-Arcade-Button.html
http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_72&osCsid=j831q4rbjpatbl10k9rmuss176

So, is it better for Defender than sanwa/seimitsu ?
No idea -- just mentioning a possible option that might save you some work on routing your CP.  The button chart on Slagcoin implies that these are similar to the Happ Horizontal. (concave buttons)

I like the longer fixing length
That's why I figured I'd mention these as an option.

Why can't those GoldLeafs have convex tops!
:dunno Maybe Andy doesn't think the market is there for them or he's planning to roll them out later.   :dunno


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 11:22:53 pm »
edit: deleted ramblings

decided:
1 short + 2 long zippy joysticks
1x minimusAVR
9x play buttons, 3x control

undecided:
Buttons, can't decide between:  GoldLeaf concave, IL Competiton Convex, Sanwa OBSN30 convex
At the moment GoldLeaf has it by a very small margin, I think.

If I choose Goldleafs I will get the 3 control buttons as IL convex, so I can try them out as fire buttons as well.



Latest layout,  colour scheme, and mounting plan attached.
Note that I will have my keyboard available at the same time, for other functions. I don't really need the 1P,2P,coin but might as well use up the 20 inputs on minimusAVR.





« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 09:18:38 am by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2013, 10:43:52 am »
I've built 1 multi-williams machine and I sold it. Biggest issue was the reverse wasn't close enough to the joystick. I built a dedicated defender layout and I love it. I am using a genuine defender stick. The artwork is a little off on the lettering. I am going to order some new artwork and re-arrange the lettering so it fits under the buttons.

As far as I'm concerned, keep it simple. Keep it to Defender/Stargate. Build another machine for everything else. And use leafs for the buttons, anything else is a compromise.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 12:09:07 pm »
Here is mine

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 01:09:35 pm »

Leapinlew, What distance is your reverse button offset from the joystick? (centreline to centreline)

Who knows what the orignal was?
Is the attached panel layout someones personal version, or a faithful drawing of the original?
It shows 1.75"(44mm)horizontal and 1.375"(35mm)vertical.
I'm not overly bothered about this info, as I'll put it where it feels good to me anyway (same as the other buttons), but it would be nice to know.

Also, what diameter ball was the original, and how far above the surface was it? This I would like to replicate.

I'm pretty happy that my multi layout doesn't compromise Defender at all, the 4way can even be switched to 2 way if I really want it to be more like the original.




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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2013, 03:50:02 pm »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2013, 04:52:55 pm »
Here is mine
...
Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2013, 08:33:07 pm »
Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

As far as I'm concerned, keep it simple. Keep it to Defender/Stargate. Build another machine for everything else. And use leafs for the buttons, anything else is a compromise.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 08:48:49 pm »
Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

Compared to what? 30g Sanwa's or 150g Happs ?
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2013, 11:17:32 pm »
Here is mine
...
Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.
The cpo came oversized I had to trim it to fit, Don't know if it would fit a stargate panel though.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2013, 11:41:07 pm »
Here is mine
...
Can you post the graphics file for this? This looks exactly like the panelI want to build, but I need the CPO to be taller, so it fits around a Stargate wood control panel.

If you're looking for a soft-copy, here's one that's really close.


Scott

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2013, 01:52:59 pm »
Just compared to every other machine I have ever played it on, which is mostly mame cabinets with the common happ buttons, although one of my multiwilliams had an non-happ brand us style button.

Oh god yes use leafs. I have a Robotron cabinet multiwilliams project that I will eventually get around to completing. I found a populated Joust panel with the original leafs and put that on there and found out that Joust is a whole different game with leaf buttons.

Compared to what? 30g Sanwa's or 150g Happs ?
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2013, 10:02:50 am »
OK,
I've decided to buy at least 1 (don't laugh) CLASSX trueleaf from groovygamegear.
just trying to work out if I can get 3,4,5, or 6 through customs without attracting all the import costs.

Anyone got pictures of CLASSX next to Goldleaf (installed preferably) ? as I will be mixing them in the same panel

« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:04:23 am by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 09:02:23 am »
the reverse button is 2 inches, on the vertical plane, from lever.  I had someone send me a picture of their real CP with a ruler to confirm when I was messing.

Getting ready to do a CP similar to Gatordad's with 2 wico opticals now.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 12:40:42 pm »
Getting ready to do a CP similar to Gatordad's with 2 wico opticals now.

Funny you should say that, my kit hasn't arrived yet but just last night I was wondering whether the extra 4way was going to be worth it. It's not so much the cost, but I do appreciate simplicity so the 3 joysticks doesn't quite satisfy me.

If I was doing a pretty panel (ie with graphics) I'd be even more keen to use just 2 joysticks for aesthetics.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 01:18:32 pm »
Quote
That's where my fingers tips are!

 But, thats not how you actually Push a button.   You finger tips will only be circular, when you hand is completely FLAT to
the table.    But if your hand is FLAT, how can you have any downforce leverage?

 Simple place your fingers on a normal flat keyboard in the home position of  asdf  and  jkl;   ,and you will see that not
only are all your fingers comfortably lined up, but that they are Bent at an angle.   That they all have great downforce
leverage.    That even if you extend to the upper letters, your finger angle is still very much VERTICAL.

 Flat layouts are Not ergonomic, because of this.   The only reason the Japanese had gotten partly around this, was to use
convex buttons.  IE: Buttons that were raised bumps, which added less need for vertical spring leverage.  Personally,
I cant stand the feel of them.   You can slip off them, as well as lose track of which buttons you are on.  They also are not
very comfortable.  And aside from all that... its still a poor performance, compared to downforce spring leverage.

 Try rapidfire shooting game, but keep your wrist and hand completely flat, and you will quickly find out.


 Also, if you are using Micros, instead of actual Leaf switch and leaf buttons... then you are also failing the point of a
Multi-Williams.   They simply do not provide the level of control,comfort, and non-fatigue, that Micros present.

 I think its nice you are thinking outside the typical box... but I also think you lack a little experience in the actual
hardware to make some key realizations, that would greatly effect your current designs.

 A side note:  Almost nothing Ive tried, plays Robotron well, except actual Wico Leaf Joysticks.  And IMO, Robotron
is far more gratifying game than Defender, or pretty much any game period.


 PS: I was one of many, who thought is was a good idea to curve a button layout.  It quickly got scrapped.
heh

« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 01:36:52 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 09:12:05 am »
the curved finger leverage thing is well discussed in training for classical guitar.

are you saying micro-switch buttons are better for a multi-williams?
defender is fatiguing trying to use micros. unless you are a master level defender player, your score will be greatly affected by trying to use micros.
you can't flap as fast or double flap on joust either which will affect you above wave 30, especially by wave 60.

robotron joysticks not feeling right with micros has more to do with the skill level of the player. a learning player will do better with wico leafs. a master player will do equally well with decent microswitch joysticks (I kinda like the zippyy's with no restrictor plate as an alternative here at home).
Robotron becomes more about player position on the screen, at the right times rather than flutter firing.
but if the player is OCD about the clicking noise of micros then it isn't going to be a good fit.

for the sake of discussion, I was obsessed with Robotron have played/owned about every platform and a huge variety of joysticks. so much so that I wrote a tutorial site and got the assistance of the Vid Kidz for details..... and it's bizarre to say but now that I'm learning Defender.  Defender is a more well-rounded game with more challenge.  Robotron is a linear gauntlet, Defender has myriad ways you can problem solve the chaos.  Don't count Defender out quite that fast as inferior.  ;)

UPDATE- Here is a Defender strategy guide written in 1982 by Joystik's Doug Mahugh, edited by the Vid Kidz. Went unpublished until this month-  http://mahugh.com/2013/01/21/defender-the-last-word/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 10:32:12 am by 1500points »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 02:09:58 pm »
I'll be using CLASSX true-leaf for rapid fire buttons. And I got some Goldleafs, and Sanwas for comparison.

In anticipation of possible slight alterations that might be needed I will build the first attempt with modular panels. This also means I can get straight onto playing Defender before I mount the Robotoron sticks.

I've not even played Robotron yet, but I'll worry about whether I need better joysticks later.

Sticks should arive tomorrow or next day. CLASSX are somewhere with Customs and Excise. If the CLASSX arrive late, I will be playing Defender with the Goldleafs until they arrive.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 02:30:44 pm »
UPDATE- Here is a Defender strategy guide written in 1982 by Joystik's Doug Mahugh, edited by the Vid Kidz. Went unpublished until this month-  http://mahugh.com/2013/01/21/defender-the-last-word/

thanks for that, I'll be reading it later.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2013, 07:17:41 pm »
Even though my CLASSX True-leafs arrived today and I like them, I feel a little bummed because I have only just spotted you can add a Rollie leaf to a Happ competition convex. I would probably have chosen that over the CLASSX concave.

Ah well, I'll just say my panel is more authentic  :lol

 
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2013, 07:29:04 am »
Simple place your fingers on a normal flat keyboard in the home position of  asdf  and  jkl;   ,and you will see that not
only are all your fingers comfortably lined up, but that they are Bent at an angle.

I don't agree with this bit.   JKL is uncomfortable, HUIL is comfortable.


A side note:  Almost nothing Ive tried, plays Robotron well, except actual Wico Leaf Joysticks.  And IMO, Robotron
is far more gratifying game than Defender, or pretty much any game period.

I haven't even used them yet, but I'm already thinking about converting my Zippy sticks to leaf contacts. Looks like I'm getting sucked into this hobby.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2013, 07:59:49 am »
So here's an update. The picture shows where I am so far.

Buttons:

I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

On a cost & convenience basis for me in the UK, I would go with Goldleafs(concave) or Sanwa(convex) if starting again.

For the reverse button I haven't tried the others, but I was convinced that the Sanwa is best for this because it's convex and a bit bigger than the others (25mm vs 23mm)

Defender Up/Down (Ramblings):

Here I am still pondering the possibilities. The short zippy has quite a bit of travel [engages at 7mm travel (top of ball) and disengages at 5mm. So 14mm total travel for each change of direction]  and my initial impression was great dissapointment with the up/down control. Part of this was due to me having been playing on a keyboard where I can do very rapid up down whilst firing, which I just couldn't do with the stick.

I also tried with joystick left/right being defender Up/Down because I can do much quicker left/right wiggles than up down wiggles,  I didn't play long enough to get used to this and abandoned it because it would be too weird for other people.

I tried using the sanwas for up down (same fingers as I'm used to) and this was nice, just like on my keyboard. To use this configuration I needed another reverse button, and it would have been a lot of work to add it to the right of the sanwas, I could have used Inviso (under my pinky) but that would spoil stargate, hence the quick installation of reverse into my footrest.  :lol   

This got me to thinking about authenticity, and whether it was accceptable to use different controls to the originals. I'm sure I could get better scores using buttons and feet (with a bit of practice).

But in this thread I'll stick to the Multi-Williams (plus) panel idea and use a conventional control scheme. So today I played a bit more with the joystick and I'm starting to get a bit better with it. But I know it can be better so I'll be looking to buy another or modify this one.


Left/Right eg Galaxian

I found the zippy to be really bad for this compared to the Left/Right buttons. So a similar situation to up/down really.


4-way  Pengo

This felt OK. But maybe that's because I haven't played it (on keyboard) for 30 years.



Next up Robotron: Lets hope I find the longer zippys OK for this, not having played the game before I might have to just trust 1500points opinion that zippys are OK.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 08:13:48 am by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2013, 11:36:54 am »
Please put down the crack pipe and stop angling your sticks.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2013, 12:13:34 pm »
Please put down the crack pipe and stop angling your sticks.

That's a good spot  :applaud:   I wasn't going to mention it.

edit: well maybe not that good, I was looking at the shrunk picture  :banghead:
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:15:15 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2013, 01:16:27 pm »
I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them)

I expect it will.  For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about ;).


Quote
Defender Up/Down (Ramblings):
Here I am still pondering the possibilities. The short zippy has quite a bit of travel [engages at 7mm travel (top of ball) and disengages at 5mm. So 14mm total travel for each change of direction]  and my initial impression was great dissapointment with the up/down control. Part of this was due to me having been playing on a keyboard where I can do very rapid up down whilst firing, which I just couldn't do with the stick.

I also tried with joystick left/right being defender Up/Down because I can do much quicker left/right wiggles than up down wiggles,  I didn't play long enough to get used to this and abandoned it because it would be too weird for other people.

...

Left/Right eg Galaxian

I found the zippy to be really bad for this compared to the Left/Right buttons. So a similar situation to up/down really.

Take the bottom plate off the Zippyy stick and adjust the levers on the switches.  They can be tweaked such that even a small movement of the stick actuates the switch.  I just did this recently for someone who ordered one for two-way operation, and it works very well.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2013, 01:28:58 pm »
I got the idea in my head now of trying to make a button that is less than 3/4" deep so the reverse button can be mounted halfway overtop the joystick mounting plate.

One way would be to shorten a button by cutting a section out of the center, only keep one leg on the plunger, and have the switch flipped around so only a small part is actually under the button.  (think I might have to do something in MS paint while at work)

I'd consider it blasphemy, but a seimitsu snap-in button could work. The main body is under 3/4" and the portion from the switch body to the edge could be over top of the joystick plate.
http://www.arcadeshop.de/images/specs/arcade-pb-ps14k-data.gif


EDIT: attached shabby MS paint rendition of Happ button hack.  The switch would be held in place by a separate mounting tab.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:44:58 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2013, 01:41:31 pm »
I expect it will.  For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about ;).

If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen  :notworthy:

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 01:44:27 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2013, 01:43:59 pm »
Take the bottom plate off the Zippyy stick and adjust the levers on the switches.  They can be tweaked such that even a small movement of the stick actuates the switch.  I just did this recently for someone who ordered one for two-way operation, and it works very well.

I'm thinking about that at the moment.
Even started a thread on it http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,130196.0.html

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2013, 01:50:42 pm »
I'd consider it blasphemy, but a seimitsu snap-in button could work. The main body is under 3/4" and the portion from the switch body to the edge could be over top of the joystick plate.

Not sure what's blashemous about seimitsu, but I can't think of a better button than the sanwa convex that I'm using for reverse.

I put it right next to my zippy and I don't feel the need to move it any further left. But if I did, in a 19mm panel it would go another 6mm over. The TRICK is to carefully file the hole in MDF (maybe plywood too) so that the button screws in, no nut required ;D
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2013, 01:51:30 pm »
If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen  :notworthy:

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

Perhaps, but you better be able to put those in a tight group, and do it often.  Everyone has a different style of play, but I've always found that laying down a wall of fire  in areas where no humans are being nabbed is important, and 4 shots in half the screen isn't going to cut it, unless you can do the same in the other half as well :).

Also, you should be able to get better than that with the timing, on a properly tuned leaf and a little practice.

I'm thinking about that at the moment.
Even started a thread on it http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,130196.0.html

You are overthinking it.  You don't need diagonals, so they are out of the equation.  Just hold the switch in your hand and depress the lever.  Now hold the lever tightly against the switch body, right at the front corner, and flex the blade upward until it's about parallel.  Install it in the joystick and test it.  If it needs a little more, do the same thing until it's the way you want it.  Then remember how far you flexed it, and do the same with the other three.

What you are basically doing is "pre-loading" the switch so that the blade is in contact with the actuator, and sits just above the actuation point of the switch.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 02:01:32 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2013, 01:58:10 pm »
Not sure what's blashemous about seimitsu, but I can't think of a better button than the sanwa convex that I'm using for reverse.

Just that it's not a classic style.  My current build has all seimitsu, but it leans towards the modern fighters and shmups. 
If I were doing a cab for classics, I wouldn't dream of using anything but concave buttons.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #46 on: February 05, 2013, 02:26:06 pm »
If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen  :notworthy:

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

Perhaps, but you better be able to put those in a tight group, and do it often.  Everyone has a different style of play, but I've always found that laying down a wall of fire  in areas where no humans are being nabbed is important, and 4 shots in half the screen isn't going to cut it, unless you can do the same in the other half as well :).

Also, you should be able to get better than that with the timing, on a properly tuned leaf and a little practice.

Maybe we are at cross purposes, by half a screen I meant half the distance from the ship to side of the screen. Ive seen a few videos of the pro's and they don't appear to be firing much faster. Now I'm going to have to download the videos and analyse the fire rates.  :-\

I was hoping people would post their firing speeds.

Here's a 4 burst timer http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-8.py
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2013, 02:31:00 pm »

Attached is a screen grab of my best time with your program and a CLASSX with the True-Leaf switch.

Also keep in mind that Defender is as much a test of endurance as anything else.  The easier it is to rip off those shots, the better you will do over the course of the game, as you will be doing it a lot.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2013, 02:42:05 pm »
You are overthinking it.  You don't need diagonals, so they are out of the equation.  Just hold the switch in your hand and depress the lever.  Now hold the lever tightly against the switch body, right at the front corner, and flex the blade upward until it's about parallel.  Install it in the joystick and test it.  If it needs a little more, do the same thing until it's the way you want it.  Then remember how far you flexed it, and do the same with the other three.

I will do that now for my 4way as its easy.

But I'm also thinking about Robotron 8ways, which is more complicated when tweaking.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2013, 02:57:56 pm »

Attached is a screen grab of my best time with your program and a CLASSX with the True-Leaf switch.

Also keep in mind that Defender is as much a test of endurance as anything else.  The easier it is to rip off those shots, the better you will do over the course of the game, as you will be doing it a lot.

Wow that's seriously quick.

But before we go too far. The program is not quality tested, and it's possible the clock slows down on slower hardware, busy browsers, I don't realy know  :-[    Anyone using it should press at medium speed (but more than 1 per second) for a timed period (say 20s) just to test the timer.

Anyway, was that using a technique you could do all day? I can fire faster (than 100ms) if I tense my hand and sort of vibrate it, but couldn't do that for long.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2013, 03:07:24 pm »
But I'm also thinking about Robotron 8ways, which is more complicated when tweaking.

When tweaking 4/8 way performance, I found it useful to install Headkaze's Vjoy:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy
Create a virtual analog joystick, then map your joystick to it.
Then bring up the virtual joystick in windows control panel and you'll be able to see a visible representation of when the joystick is hitting the directions and corners.
(Not sure why, but the hat switch doesn't show when you hit the corners)

I'm using a Sanwa JLF with optical switches and have plans to make a circuit that automatically reduces the sensetivity for 4-way games.  8)
Using V-joy allowed me to see exactly when the corners could no longer be hit.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2013, 03:40:50 pm »
But before we go too far. The program is not quality tested, and it's possible the clock slows down on slower hardware, busy browsers, I don't realy know  :-[    Anyone using it should press at medium speed (but more than 1 per second) for a timed period (say 20s) just to test the timer.

3ghz Core2 Quad fast enough?

Quote
Anyway, was that using a technique you could do all day? I can fire faster (than 100ms) if I tense my hand and sort of vibrate it, but couldn't do that for long.

Sure.  If that helps your game, that's how you play.  I can also walk all day long, but not if someone is chasing me with a baseball bat  :lol
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 03:44:58 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2013, 04:20:47 pm »
Quote from: RandyT link=topic=129721.msg1332141#msg1332141
3ghz Core2 Quad fast enough?
should be,  it's more the browser based python emulation with interrupt driven counter that could be very sketchy!

Quote
Sure.  If that helps your game, that's how you play.  I can also walk all day long, but not if someone is chasing me with a baseball bat  :lol 
Just played a game, and I can see the benefits of even faster firing. I'm using the CLASSX for fire, so I'd better get practicing.


Anyway, I just tweaked my joystick down from 14mm up to down, to about 8mm. And it's so much better.   :applaud:  Almost as responsive as buttons.

I can't really go much further because there is about +/-1mm of dead movement about the centre, and then there is 2mm of disengage, so +/- 4mm is about the best I could do.

With the cross (4way) restrictor I can now hit the diagonals, which may cause problems??? Is it just the feel of the 4way restrictor that people like, or is it also that some games will be confused by the diagonal switch combination?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 04:37:31 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2013, 04:30:48 pm »
When tweaking 4/8 way performance, I found it useful to install Headkaze's Vjoy:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy
Create a virtual analog joystick, then map your joystick to it.
Then bring up the virtual joystick in windows control panel and you'll be able to see a visible representation of when the joystick is hitting the directions and corners.

Thanks, that could be useful. Especially if I get quiter switches, it's already hard to tell engage click from disengage  ;D

What part of control panel?
I'm on windows7, I found the joystick in device manager, but can't see any sort of test screen. can't see it in devices and printers section.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 04:56:23 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2013, 05:20:24 pm »
should be,  it's more the browser based python emulation with interrupt driven counter that could be very sketchy!

I'm sure that result is accurate, at least relative to yours.  It took a few times for me to get that time, mainly because I did it while holding the button with one hand and tapping it with the other.  When mounted on the panel and having a place to rest your hand, it's much easier to do repeatedly.  But I was getting times similar to yours at times when I was going slow.  On the time I did the test posted, there was a literal stream  of changes.  This is what a properly tuned, good leaf switch can provide with a little practice, and really what it is known for.  It's also important that the encoder can keep up with it.  If not, you will never be able to go faster than the encoder is capable of discerning and pushing out to the system.

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Just played a game, and I can see the benefits of even faster firing. I'm using the CLASSX for fire, so I'd better get practicing.

Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

Quote
Anyway, I just tweaked my joystick down from 14mm up to down, to about 8mm. And it's so much better.   :applaud:  Almost as responsive as buttons.

I can't really go much further because there is about +/-1mm of dead movement about the centre, and then there is 2mm of disengage, so +/- 4mm is about the best I could do.

Congrats!  I'm assuming the distances are measured at the knob of the stick.  Honestly, with a microswitch based joystick, that's as good as can be expected.  Also note that the length of the joystick will play a big role, which is one of the reasons many were so short to the panel.  If you used the long handle Zippyy instead, that distance would probably increase by 50% or more.

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With the cross (4way) restrictor I can now hit the diagonals, which may cause problems??? Is it just the feel of the 4way restrictor that people like, or is it also that some games will be confused by the diagonal switch combination?

If you make sure the unimportant directions are undefined, there shouldn't be an issue.  The original games didn't have code to use those, so they should be ignored.  If it works well, don't worry about the diagonals, unless you are playing a 4-way with it, and even then, don't worry until you actually see an issue when playing them.  You are trying to do several things with one stick, so there will have to be a tradeoff.

RandyT

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2013, 05:46:59 am »
It's also important that the encoder can keep up with it.  If not, you will never be able to go faster than the encoder is capable of discerning and pushing out to the system.
I'm sure the minimusAVR is capable. If I press 6 buttons at a time I can get down to 20ms  ;D

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Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

I left it the way it went together, which was about 1mm of travel. Seeing as this is halfway through the total travel it seemed right to me.

Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I imagined 'floating the contact' as moving up and down making contact without hitting either of the end stops.

I'll try it with a smaller gap, but I can't see cutting 1mm to 0.2mm will make a lot of difference.


I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.






« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:49:57 am by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2013, 10:16:23 am »
I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.

Yes, one press = one action, but that's not what I did.  I could have, however, but probably not at the same speed.

Well, that's the beauty of a leaf switch.  You can adjust it any way that's right for you.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2013, 10:40:36 am »
So here is some final pics (for now).

I straightened up the 4way, and ground 2mm from the zippy steel plate (because I used 13mm mdf the sanwa only pokes through 1mm).  Final position of the reverse is 44mm horizontal 22mm vertical compared to Original Defender which I believe is 44mm horizontal 35mm vertical.

This was supposed to be a gash mock-up but there is almost nothing I want to change so far. I'd close the gap between left/right buttons buts it's hardly a chasm  :lol

The 2 floating buttons are in case of 2 player game that needs joystick and 2 buttons, or I might use them for coin and start.



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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2013, 11:06:17 am »
one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 11:15:33 am »
one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

I saw at one time PBJ melted away the "nubs" with a soldering iron.  The same could be done pretty easily by trimming with a hobby knife, if they bother you.  But they do serve a purpose to prevent diagonals, which may or may not be an issue.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2013, 11:26:59 am »
one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

I'm still pondering the 4way restrictor.   

Since I tweaked the switches, the cloverleaf doesn't block the diagonals anymore, so I've got nothing to lose by trying the diamond.

Is the diamond motion traditional for 4way games?  Pacman, Pengo.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2013, 11:28:08 am »
I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.

Yes, one press = one action, but that's not what I did.  I could have, however, but probably not at the same speed.

Well, that's the beauty of a leaf switch.  You can adjust it any way that's right for you.

Is this reply deliberately confusing to hide some secret technique?





Also, I just looked back and spotted this:

For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about ;).

Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

So which is it ?
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2013, 11:32:39 am »
Is this reply deliberately confusing to hide some secret technique?

Heh, no.  The two methods of using the button configured like this are not mutually exclusive.  If you want to press the button once and have it fire 1 time, that will work.  But if you also want to be able to rip off fire like nobody's business, you can use the "vibrate" technique.

It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2013, 11:40:52 am »
It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

How do you adjust it with a barely visible gap at the top, and also hold the button down and vibrate it about the contact point?

Can you vibrate your finger up and down half a barely visible gap ?  (which for sake of argumant say is 0.1mm)
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2013, 11:53:15 am »
It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

How do you adjust it with a barely visible gap at the top, and also hold the button down and vibrate it about the contact point?

Can you vibrate your finger up and down half a barely visible gap ?  (which for sake of argumant say is 0.1mm)

Again, you can adjust it any way you please.  The gap is the same, or at least it can be, and where you place that gap is up to you.  If you would rather have the action occur midway into the button press, simply move both leaves into that position, with the same gap. 

For absolute control, i.e. knowing without a doubt where the contact closure occurs, the only way to do this is by placing actuation toward the top of the throw.  This may not be for everyone, but it's where I prefer it.  Other types of switches don't provide this kind of tweakability, so whatever they are is what you must adjust to, including any limitations they might impose on your play.  I actually have a real Defender control panel here, and Williams used long, springy leaf switches, and an extension which translated movement on the button to shorter motion at the contacts, so rapid fire was easy to pull off.  The methods I outlined will allow you the same performance as the original.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 11:55:29 am by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2013, 12:22:42 pm »
side note, i was thinking that defender only allows 4 live shots at a time from your ship. and sometimes that can help overload the processing so items are teleported to opposite side of world. sometimes a benefit and sometimes a hindrance.  I'll have to double check the defender guide that was proofed by the vidkidz to confirm......

the current defender masters that play on 99-99 remove those springs. probably just preference.

for that "leaf bounce" it is handy on real wico leafs in robotron where you are flutter firing between 2 directions. but the micros can do it too, once you fine tune your technique.

EDIT- Here it is- http://mahugh.com/defender-the-last-word/chapter-2-the-controls/
Defender allows a limited number of shots on the screen at a single time.  In Defender, the limit is four; once you have fired four times, you can’t fire again until one of those shots has hit something or passed off the edge of the screen.  But unless you have exceptionally fast fingers you won’t notice this limit, since your shots travel so fast that the first one is almost always off the screen before you’ve hit the fire button four more times.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 12:28:28 pm by 1500points »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2013, 01:13:43 pm »
Are you mikeville66 ?

fastest 4burst I've seen in his videos so far is 330ms from first bullet to 4th bullet becoming visible, it's at 16.600s


360ms burst here at 06:33.840 
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2013, 01:21:11 pm »
ha, no. that is mikael lindholm from stockholm, sweden. he goes by mikeville or MOS.  best defender player on the planet.  he is in the FB group you are in.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2013, 01:23:27 pm »
just food a Spriggsy video, sure he fires faster, I'll post his times up in a minute when I find a good one.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2013, 01:29:33 pm »
Jimmer, are you a pro Defender player?  If so, and you can place shots like the person playing in those videos, then you won't need to worry about firing speed.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:32:38 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2013, 01:31:24 pm »
Spriggsy is Paul. In those vids it is all keyboard, not sure which key he uses to fire.  since then he switched to a CP with ultimarc goldleafs.
he is also in the FB group.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2013, 01:35:50 pm »
Jimmer, are you a pro Defender player?  If so, and you can place shots like the person playing in those videos, then you won't need to worry about firing speed.

LOL, that's what I said right at the start. I can fire fast enough with any of the buttons I bought.  :banghead:
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2013, 01:41:44 pm »
the free air bursts at 15s  are 233ms [edit: oops, 330ms) first shot to 4th shot out the gun.


but maybe that's a different technique to when he's covering the thrust.

Have we had enough of speed firing yet?


« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 07:16:09 am by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2013, 01:46:11 pm »
LOL, that's what I said right at the start. I can fire fast enough with any of the buttons I bought.  :banghead:

I'm confused.  So you are a pro player and don't need rapid fire?  I guess I missed that part :)

In those vids it is all keyboard...

That's amazing.  Someone who can do that well on a keyboard isn't going to be hampered by any reasonable arcade control put in front of him.

Have we had enough of speed firing yet?

I'm not sure you noticed, but his play style has 4 shots on the screen at all times when there are targets closing in on him.  If you don't think that has anything to do with doing well with the game, you either haven't played it much, or have played it so much, you don't need it.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 01:50:25 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2013, 01:50:32 pm »
I'm confused.  So you are a pro player and don't need rapid fire?  I guess I missed that part :)

I think we're both confused . I see what you're saying now though, I either need to be super accurate or super fast. Unfortunately I'm neither (yet).
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2013, 01:51:18 pm »
ha, enough to feel like an inadequate mortal....

back to the 4 way restrictor.  yes all 4-way games that used wico's used the diamond shape to guide the actuator. it lets the NSWE hit but the straight angle keeps the angles from triggering both contacts. ie no NE, SE, SW, NW.

frenzy, berzerk, xevious need 8 way. most maze games are 4 way, pacman, rallyx, pengo, dk, etc.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2013, 01:52:45 pm »
I'm not sure you noticed, but his play style has 4 shots on the screen at all times when there are targets closing in on him.  If you don't think that has anything to do with doing well with the game, you either haven't played it much, or have played it so much, you don't need it.

Indeed, which equates to a constant 120ms fire rate(or less, I haven't calculated it yet).  So I don't need to be able to float my contacts at 50ms
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2013, 02:05:42 pm »
Indeed, which equates to a constant 120ms fire rate(or less, I haven't calculated it yet).  So I don't need to be able to float my contacts at 50ms

First, your calculations are a little suspect if you think you can calculate those speeds from a YouTube video :).  And second, you are correct, you don't need to do that.  But there is a fatigue issue with Defender, Joust, Stargate, etc.  The more up and down action you need to perform on the fire button to sustain those speeds, the more tired you become.  What you can do in a few short bursts is quite different than what you will be able to do after 10 or 15 minutes.  Microswitches are the worst in this regard, but a real leaf switch is unbeatable....well, outside of cheating and using a rapid fire circuit.

Also, don't forget to take into account that some of those shots in the videos are actually laid over one another. 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:08:24 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #78 on: February 07, 2013, 08:27:19 am »
Spriggsy replied about the firing subject which should lay that one to rest since he is one of the extreme masters on the planet-
------------------
Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

The only benefit to quick fire is if a pack of swarmers is heading quickly toward you, or you have mutants up your ass and you need to quickly reverse and pick off as many as possible. The new controller is forcing me to play with more control than speed, which is taking time to get used to but it will be better in the long run.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #79 on: February 07, 2013, 12:58:02 pm »
I'm sure it's not over yet!

It could be, if one of the code dissasemblers tells us that it's not posssible to fire faster than XX.

I do see the advantage of having a super-rapid fire in your set of skills (even though I've not spotted it yet in any of the top players)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 01:18:16 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2013, 01:56:57 pm »
Larry DeMar and Eugene Jarvis confirmed the 4 shots in the design.  You'd about have to be a hardware guy to decide how fast the inputs could be processed because Williams games have a stand-alone interface card that feeds back to the processor board.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2013, 01:58:23 pm »
Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

Microswitches will never fire faster than leaf switches.  The physics, which I can explain in detail, render it an impossibility.  It would probably behoove Mike to try some decent, real leaf switch based buttons.  "Gold Leaf" buttons are not real leaf switch buttons, so if that is what he is basing his conclusion on, it makes sense he would believe this.  He's incorrect, but it makes sense.

I could also sell him a leaf-based, 2-way stick which would make him think he was playing on an actual Defender machine.

Quote
That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

This is what I was pointing out.  If one is an advanced player, it becomes less important, with the exceptions you mentioned.    The same could be said for pretty much any game, including Asteroids.  But few shoot 1 time when 4 are possible.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:12:11 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2013, 02:35:09 pm »
Microswitches will never fire faster than leaf switches.  The physics, which I can explain in detail, render it an impossibility.  It would probably behoove Mike to try some decent, real leaf switch based buttons.  "Gold Leaf" buttons are not real leaf switch buttons, so if that is what he is basing his conclusion on, it makes sense he would believe this.  He's incorrect, but it makes sense.

Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

edit.
Just tested the goldleaf, and it acts like leaf. It's harder to float than the true-leaf because it's silent.

edit2:
Still yet to see a video of someone floating a button in a real game, the top Defender players all smack 10 bales of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- into the keyboard  ;D


« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:45:11 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2013, 02:48:10 pm »
Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

Not specifically.  But I have disassembled many like it.  I have a pile of Chinese Sanwa-style switches here which are built the same way.  I've even studied the mechanics of them and figured out how to modify those which are designed to click, and make it so they don't.

If you have ever disassembled a keyboard which has actual switches in them, you've seen something very similar.  They aren't even close to what an arcade leaf switch is, or can do :)

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2013, 02:53:15 pm »
How do you take apart a microswitch without destroying it.
Ken House said he makes microswitch joysticks silent for playing on his robotron.
He was going to tell me how to do it, but never got around to it.

I'm extremely curious. the micros I have all seem to be heat pressed plastic?

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2013, 02:58:48 pm »
Larry DeMar and Eugene Jarvis confirmed the 4 shots in the design.  You'd about have to be a hardware guy to decide how fast the inputs could be processed because Williams games have a stand-alone interface card that feeds back to the processor board.

The fire rate might be limited in the main software, I saw people talking about how many cycles it ignores the reverse button for etc

I could test this by putting a vibrator on the fire button (if I had one), but a software guy might give a definitive answer.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2013, 03:01:20 pm »
How do you take apart a microswitch without destroying it.
Ken House said he makes microswitch joysticks silent for playing on his robotron.
He was going to tell me how to do it, but never got around to it.

I'm extremely curious. the micros I have all seem to be heat pressed plastic?

It depends on the switch.  Some are sealed, but most you see nowadays are not.  They are usually just two halves which are press fit together. 

The Sanwa-type switches have little tabs which allow you to separate them.  But once you get into the guts, you have to careful, as the components tend to be under spring tension.  It's easy to lose parts, mainly the spring, if you don't go about it the correct way.

If you send me a photo of the switches in question, I could probably tell you what you need to do.  Or, you could just buy some Versa-Micros from us ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:02:54 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2013, 03:18:02 pm »
Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

Not specifically.  But I have disassembled many like it.  I have a pile of Chinese Sanwa-style switches here which are built the same way.  I've even studied the mechanics of them and figured out how to modify those which are designed to click, and make it so they don't.

If you have ever disassembled a keyboard which has actual switches in them, you've seen something very similar.  They aren't even close to what an arcade leaf switch is, or can do :)

If you don't know what's in a goldleaf switch, how do you know that the chinese ones were 'like it'.
Did they have bits like this forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,110252.msg1169103.html#msg1169103 inside?

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2013, 03:28:00 pm »
Ah ha! good timing, i JUST got a package in the mail from paradise arcade. the switch says zippy and it was very easy to open with a knife, unlike the old blue/black ones i have.

How do I alter it to remove the click.
All 3 types I have laying around:


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2013, 03:32:49 pm »
Great, can you tell me the model number on zippy micro?

edit: ah just realised it's not a lever type. I'm trying to find out which lever model it is that Paradise sells.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 03:36:27 pm »
non-descript.  says VM-5 5A, 125/250VAC  with a backwards UR

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2013, 03:52:37 pm »
non-descript.  says VM-5 5A, 125/250VAC  with a backwards UR

I don't suppose you've got the capability to measure the hysteresis to 0.3mm accuracy  :lol   Then we could determine if its the model with 1.1mm or 1.6mm 
http://www.zippy.com.tw/Con_product_detail.asp?pcs_name=Micro%20Switches&pcs_type=1&ps_rfnbr=313&ps_code=VM%20Series&ps_name=VM%20Series&pcs_rfnbr=7&lv_rfnbr=1#Operating%20Characteristics
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2013, 03:54:28 pm »
ha, i may be a mad scientist but have no oscilloscope. you could mail me one, though. :)

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2013, 04:23:00 pm »
Nevermind, I've taken the lid off mine, and together with 'inspiration' from Randy's versa-switch I can see how to adjust my hysteresis down to almost nothing.

This will make the zippy even better for Defender, and I'll be ready for tweaking when I start on Robotron.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2013, 04:26:12 pm »
Ah ha! good timing, i JUST got a package in the mail from paradise arcade. the switch says zippy and it was very easy to open with a knife, unlike the old blue/black ones i have.

How do I alter it to remove the click.
All 3 types I have laying around:

I know you probably won't want to hear this, but the build of that particular switch is not very conducive to this type of modification.   It can be done, but there are easier ones to do it with.  But I'll give you the basics (better get my perfesser hat on..)

The "click" caused by snap switches is the sound it makes when the two contacts are slammed together under spring tension.  The way they operate, due to the position of the spring relative to the center of the arc, is they build tension/resistance all the way up to the apex of the curve.  Once it passes the apex, the reduction in spring tension allows the forces on the actuator to cause the contact point to accelerate rapidly down the other side.  However, since there is still enough tension on the spring to bring it back past the apex, it will return when pressure is removed from the actuator.  This behavior is responsible for the "bump" you feel when pushing the button, and that "fall through" and required cycling distance of the switch contributes to impeded rapid cycling.

The stronger the spring, the more pronounced this condition becomes.

So reducing click requires doing one, or both, of the following;  Reducing the distance between the contact points and/or reducing the spring tension, both of which will limit the momentum it can achieve before the points meet.  Each micro will need a specific way of achieving this, some much simpler than others.

But I'm glad you posted that photo, as it also shows what a difference there can be even in the way leaf switches are offered.  The original in the center looks quite a bit less stiff than than the adapter leaf you show there.  Would I be correct in that assessment?

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2013, 07:29:10 pm »
A lot of people do not realize... theres many more factors in why Leafs are superior.

  1)  Distance to activation

 This is the common one that most people can actually see and understand.  You can adjust the leafs to be close enough that a receipt could just squeeze in between them.

 A microswich cant be adjusted to anywhere near that level... because the Micros use a snap switch.  The snap switches need a certain distance to maintain the ability to actually snap at all.  That minimum distance, is far greater than the leafs minimum distance.

 2)  Distance to DE-Activation

   After you make contact (fire), you now need to release contact to be able to fire again.  With a leaf, theres a trick in which you can use a light touch and sort of vibrate the contacts on and off, called floating.

 With a Micro, even if you have managed to reduced some distance to the activation point... you still have distance on return to travel.   In a typical micro, when the snap switch snaps, it travels like 2 or 3mm.  Even if you reduced that to 1.5mm... its still not going to be as close as a leaf...

 But heres the other BIG factor:

3)  Bottoming Out & Spring Tension

 A traditional Leaf button is much taller than a standard microswitch button.  It has a longer travel.  You start to press in, and near the high end of the middle, is the contact point. The distance might be similar to a traditional micro... however, with a leaf, you can easily stay in this zone with the feather touch float, easily.

  With a micro, you cant feather it.  The contact have to snap.  And right before they snap.. theres very large resistance force you Must overcome.  It may not seem that bad for a single press... but every time you have to fight that large resistance spike... you start to get fatigued.  After less than 20sec of rapidfire, you start to wear down quickly. But not only is fatigue a factor.. but also time.  Every time you run into that monster bump in the road, you lose speed... and thus reaction time goes down.

 Now Bottoming out:

 With a leaf being much taller, and the contacts being somewhere near the middle.. you dont ever have to bottom the thing out.  Meaning, you dont have to push the button to the full bottom.  In fact, you dont even come close to it.   Even with slower games where you single fire, its rare that you might bottom it out, because of the extra distance you have.   Theres 2 big reasons why they did this...

 A)  Collision Fatigue 

    In recent findings, they have come to realize that when you run... its not good to land on your heel.  The reason, is that on collision, it effects your entire body.  Most especially the heel and knee... but also the spine too.  The force is very powerful, with a lot of mass behind it.

  Every time you press a micoswitch button to its end... your fingers take that energy.  Its made worse with micros, because the spring tension make you have to press harder... and so you accelerate your fingers that much faster into the collision point.  While it doesnt seem like that big of a deal... for at least some minutes into play... eventually it takes its toll.  Most noticeably, on rapidfire games where you dont get any chance to stop and take a break.

  What they recommend, with running, is the have the ball of the foot land first.  What happens is that as your ball makes contact, and more of your mass starts to transfer to that point.. your heel starts to pivot downwards, but you can keep it from hitting. The pivot from ball to heel... acts as a spring.  And so theres no heavy full body mass collision.   This lack of collision will greatly reduce any change of body part wear, stress damage, and stress fatigue.

 Recap: A Leaf button, doesnt have to ever be fully depressed, so theres no collision fatigue.  A Microswich button will Always bottom out.  Theres pretty much no way to keep it from happening... due to the acceleration and heavy pressure you must exert.

 B) Speed

 Every time you bottom out a switch, you lose speed.  Yes, theres some rebound energy, which helps.. but, theres still losses.  You come to a very abrupt stop, and then you loosen your finger tension, and allow the button to rise.  For the most part, you may even lose much or all of any rebound forces if you didnt time your release exactly.

 With the Leafs, you dont lose much, if any, speed or momentum.  You bounce with a feather touch... like you were on a trampoline. The spring of the leaf gets stronger as you press further, and even helps you return to the start position, with good rebound energy.   This, along with no collision fatigue, equates to much faster responses, and since you dont fatigue easily.. you can maintain high repeat speed for a very long time.

 Not so, for microswitch style buttons.  Which is why most microswitch games are less intense, and or have autofire built into the game.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2013, 09:45:11 pm »
Thanks Xiaou2, but I already posted a link to the thread where you say all the same things  ;D

I agree with most of what you say. The damage thing is worth thinking/worrying about if you are bashing your buttons all day, but your running analogy is poor (and what do you mean recent findings? surely anyone who has ever run knows landing on your heel is bad?). Your efficiency arguments are irrelevant, no-one runs out of energy pressing fire.

In any case, you and Randy are arguing against Strawmen in this thread, I've got 3 buttons on trial, none of which use snap-action switches.

The snap switch that just appeared upthread is for joystick use. I'm pretty sure I can modify my snap-switches to make them fully adequate for defender, robotron, joust and any of the maze games. The one reservation I have is accurate left/right games like Galaxian, which I may have to stick with buttons for.

I look forward to an essay on floating wico sticks.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2013, 01:27:24 am »
I can attest personally to the evil nature of microswitch buttons when playing Defender and Joust.

I am a master level jouster from way back. and for an extra challenge i spent some time playing with a microswitch on purpose. it is brutally hard with no fine movement where you can fly the bird with delicate precision.  about impossible to finesse a pterodactyl fight.
finally got tired of the futile challenge and put the rolley back in that machine  (actually the rolley's are super duper nice, they aren't stiff like they look. you can get em in that sweet spot and flutter.)

on defender, i know all the right stuff but have no execution so i'm one of those novices who understands what to do, just can't do it.
but i spent some time with micros and it is physically exhausting to the point of painful on the tendons. no one should probably do that just for health reasons alone (i bet we are all over 40 here, aren't we?)

here is an oddity. I mastered robotron over the past couple years, and for awhile i was playing with those IL? bat sticks from arcadeshop, I think that's where I got em. they had a really light micro in them.  i got to where i could flutter those things so fast in that sweet spot that i could cause the 19-1 board to lockup/dead frozen (not the shot in the corner bug).  therefore, it says to me that indeed a micro might not be as fast as a leaf but you can still blaze them. Ken House is one of the best robotron players around and he likes micros, as many others do.

In reality, another thread maybe, robotron once you really learn it and how to defeat the enemy dynamics through proper player movement and screen placement is not a game of fast firing. a lot of the time you are straight firing.  but that's a master class unto itself. (see the guidebook for more if you fit this category)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:29:14 am by 1500points »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2013, 01:36:11 am »
I look forward to an essay on floating wico sticks.

I guess next you'll be saying that a leaf joystick has no benefit over a standard stick with modified microswitches :)  I think that once you get your panel finished, and then go out and find some of the real machines that those games came from, you'll start to understand things a bit better.  I have the actual vertically restricted, very short leaf-switch based Defender stick in a box around here somewhere.  That thing is built to be very sensitive, and can be made so there is nothing, nada, and zilch for a deadzone.  The stubby length makes it so that the smallest of motions at the ball, will set the ship in this fast paced game, into motion.  It's a very specialized control, and is about as similar to a standard joystick as a proper leaf switch button is to a button with a keyboard switch inside.  Yes, both will work, to some extent, but they are in very different leagues.

I also have an actual Galaxian here.  If you had a leaf switch joystick, as it does, you wouldn't need to resort to buttons for moving the ship, in order to get the gameplay you seem to be after.

So no. No essays on "floating" WICO's here.   Just leaf switch joysticks being used in the original machines to make use of the specific advantages that they, and only they, offer.

Just to be clear, I'm not faulting you or anyone else for the choices they make in controls, as there are many factors involved, including budget, availability, application and expectations.  But when well established facts regarding the benefits of different controls start to get muddled, it's likely to spawn some discussion ;).

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2013, 02:08:26 am »
In reality, another thread maybe, robotron once you really learn it and how to defeat the enemy dynamics through proper player movement and screen placement is not a game of fast firing. a lot of the time you are straight firing.  but that's a master class unto itself. (see the guidebook for more if you fit this category)

I agree.  I'm not a "master player" but it's one of my favorites.  One thing to consider with Robotron is that the original sticks had longer handles than 99% of other games.  Coupling a long handle with a microswitch is going to be a problem.  I'm not sure whether Ken is using a long handled WICO with the microswitches, and has become accustomed to it, or whether they are paired with a shorter one, but it does make a difference.  Leaf switches can be tuned to make the long handled variety more sensitive.

Also, while the adapted leafs may work for you, the originals didn't have the resistance that those obviously have, based on the construction.  If I get around to it, I'll post a photo of the originals.  But in a nutshell, the top blade is very thin, and long, with no plastic to press along with it.  To make pressing them even easier, the button plunger rests on a section of the leaf which is about 1/2" past the actual contacts.  So what you are saying about fatigue with Defender, is absolutely correct.  It's also very obvious that they understood this clearly, and selected switches which would help to mitigate the issue.  Tired players don't keep dropping quarters in the slots ;)

*edit*

Here's a chunk out of a photo from an amazingly authentic reproduction, showing the actual Defender leaf switches.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 02:32:47 am by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #100 on: February 08, 2013, 02:50:45 am »
Quote
I agree with most of what you say. The damage thing is worth thinking/worrying about if you are bashing your buttons all day, but your running analogy is poor (and what do you mean recent findings? surely anyone who has ever run knows landing on your heel is bad?). Your efficiency arguments are irrelevant, no-one runs out of energy pressing fire.

 The argument wasnt about Damaging your fingers, tendons..etc.   That would only be an issue, if your job were to non-stop rapid button presses.

 The argument was about speed and fatigue.   As member '1500points' has pointed out, (snicker)   trying to play a rapidfire game results in major fatigue.   If you use a leaf button, that fatigue level goes down to almost nothing.  And to be clear, fatigue with micros on rapidfire games can set in as quickly as 30 seconds.  Where as the same player, could play for an hour, and still not be fatigued with leafs.

 As for the ball - heel stuff... Id only heard about it within maybe the last 10yrs, on a documentary featuring the Tarahumara tribe, (I believe)  where they run barefoot for like two days, going 200miles, without pause.  They filmed the runners on a treadmill, and made the heel realization.   The resultant research, has been slow to spread... as a lot of people still are clinging to the 'dont run, it will mess your knees up', research that predated it.  And when looking for the tribe name, found an article from 2010, talking about recent discoveries to do with barefoot running.   So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

 And Randy has some very valid points.

 For example, Defenders 2 way leaf stick, is very short. The shorter the throw, the quicker the reaction times.  Longer handled sticks, require more travel before activation.  This can be the death of you, esp. on games like defender.

 And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome. It also has a circular outside path, which is needed for robotron.. to roll effortlessly from one direction to the next. Some sticks have a square path, and you would get stuck in the corners. (delay from clashing into a dead stop, and then changing direction)   And then of course, its got less distance to activation than many micro based sticks. (and thats before you adjust the leafs)

 Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true... however, you would still have to deal with the clicky heavy tensioned micros, that also have that slamming collision impact.   While the collision of a joystick isnt that fatiguing, its still slightly discomforting.  You may not consciously notice it... but once you play a game with real wicos, its like a slap in the face.  Just smooth silky movement, without that jarring slamming.
Admittedly, they are a little stiff feeling.. but that somehow doesnt matter as much as the slam stuff does...  and the other benefits, such as lightning fast response times.

 While it may be true that masters can play Robotron with micros (id be curious to know what stick... cause I cant play it with comps, nor supers).. the average joe may not be up to the robotic task of strategies needed.  Instead, we rely on being able to do on-the-fly action... and as such, need every millisecond worth of advantage.  That games projectile speeds, and ferocity, pretty much require it.  Again, the smooth feel also complements it as well.

 I can honestly say, that I used to hate leaf buttons and sticks. Even, and especially when I managed an arcade.  They needed adjustments and cleaning often.  And, I really didnt know about the floating stuff either.   It wasnt till near the end of my arcade days, that I made some realizations.  I replaced the Galaga with Micros, and quickly found out, that Id made a big mistake.  And later, found a real Defender, and Robotron to play.. and again, got schooled.
Newer does not necessarily mean better.  In fact, these days, quality has slipped drastically.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #101 on: February 08, 2013, 03:34:13 am »
Spriggsy replied about the firing subject which should lay that one to rest since he is one of the extreme masters on the planet-
------------------
Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

The only benefit to quick fire is if a pack of swarmers is heading quickly toward you, or you have mutants up your ass and you need to quickly reverse and pick off as many as possible. The new controller is forcing me to play with more control than speed, which is taking time to get used to but it will be better in the long run.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

 This is misleading.

  Ive watched a video review of the AscII stick... and the only thing that had micros in it was the joystick.  The buttons, were standard press pad style buttons.  You know, the kind that are in a ps2 handheld controller.

 Even the latter ASCII sticks, which offer optical joysticks, have standard buttons.

 It was very rare to see anyone put out a full set of buttons on any controller, mostly cause of the expense.  As people have made control realizations, they may have came out with all-micro based controllers.  However, from the AscII links Id seen, I believe he wasnt using full micros for buttons.  Just short throw pad based buttons.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #102 on: February 08, 2013, 05:45:09 am »
I guess next you'll be saying that a leaf joystick has no benefit over a standard stick with modified microswitches :)  I think that once you get your panel finished, and then go out and find some of the real machines that those games came from, you'll start to understand things a bit better.  I have the actual vertically restricted, very short leaf-switch based Defender stick in a box around here somewhere.  That thing is built to be very sensitive, and can be made so there is nothing, nada, and zilch for a deadzone.  The stubby length makes it so that the smallest of motions at the ball, will set the ship in this fast paced game, into motion.  It's a very specialized control, and is about as similar to a standard joystick as a proper leaf switch button is to a button with a keyboard switch inside.  Yes, both will work, to some extent, but they are in very different leagues.
Well at least if I said that you wouldn't need to invent strawmen to argue against  ;D

I'm not that interested in the fact that a Defender stick could be set with no gap. I am interested to know what you find is the best setting for engagement/disengagement.

I also have an actual Galaxian here.  If you had a leaf switch joystick, as it does, you wouldn't need to resort to buttons for moving the ship, in order to get the gameplay you seem to be after.
I believe that could be true, that's why I brought it up.

Just to be clear, I'm not faulting you or anyone else for the choices they make in controls, as there are many factors involved, including budget, availability, application and expectations.  But when well established facts regarding the benefits of different controls start to get muddled, it's likely to spawn some discussion ;).
I am faulting my choice. That why I'm making posts about converting my joystick to leaf switches and modifying micro-switches.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2013, 06:48:37 am »
So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

I'm sure Ma Jun knew that running on the balls of your feet was damaging back in 230AD.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2013, 07:11:29 am »
And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome.
Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true...

Zero slop about centre is obviously ideal. My zippy short stick has about +/-1mm free play (measured at the top of the ball).

I haven't reached a conclusion yet on whether that, i itself, is a real life detriment.
Currently I have 1mm free play+1mm travel+2mm disengage = +/- 4mm side to side engagement. This is not adequate for Galaxian.
I think I can tune the zippy down to 1mm free play+0.5mm travel+1mm disengage = +/- 2.5mm


If I was designing a leaf joystick (or button) it would have screw adjustment, not rely on pliers for adjustment.



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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2013, 08:47:43 am »
Few things, essay in nature-

The reason defender or Robotron control panel feels perfect is because Jarvis was an avid game player, they got it right through intuitive observation and had decades of insights from the pinball side of things about meeting the needs of the coin-op consumer (pinball pioneer Steve Kordek was a “family” friend and mentor to both).  DeMar states they had to make Robotron harder after switching from Atari 2600 sticks to real wico leafs. Defender layout was a desire to accommodate Asteroids players who were a top coin-op customer at the time of design. The added height of a robo stick was a product of not wanting people to scrape knuckles.
If you don’t know of Jarvis this is a good start- http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-17/entertainment/ct-ent-eugene-jarvis-20121217_1_arcade-game-video-game-game-designers

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the brilliance of putting robo sticks 10 inches apart, it just feels right for the geometry of most people’s shoulder width.  Put in a bunch of time on a real cab and you’ll see.

Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the importance of screen size.  19 inch 4-3 LCD does better for Robotron due to visual discrimination and reaction times.  A 17 inch 4-3 LCD does better for defender due to peripheral vision and radar observation.

another thing that hasn't been mentioned is angle of panel surface to avoid wrist discomfort for the average height player. I personally find a Joust cab to have the perfect screen angle/position and panel angle.

Zippyy’s can play Robotron as well as anything if you take restrictor completely off. You’ll grind actuator a bit, but as you get better you won’t need to overcompensate and grind the stick against circle.  But once again, a learning player will do better on real wico’s a seasoned player won’t care.  I personally got NOS 3.5inch wico leaf sticks and routed into the height I liked, but I like the silence and the ability to “feel” the blade pressure which becomes hyper-acute when your brain goes into the Zone/trance state. It’s bizarre feeling that I personally find satisfying- tactile oddity maybe.

Per a big debate on klov, the IL eurostick is supposed to be the king but I’ve never actually touched one, assume it has light micros and circular restriction (which was pointed out as a key element above).  the sticks I had looked the same style and colors. I gave them away when I realized I preferred the balltop over bats, once I owned a real robo cab and put in a lot of time on it.   http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/58-il-eurostick-joystick

one last thing!  Joust extreme master, Lon McDonald, broke the mame marathon WR on my cab (homemade joust style tabletop cab with extension for upright) the buttons were using rolley leaf conversions and the wico had no horizontal restriction, and he was playing the tougher mame 106 version of joust. he is insanely talented. http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/home/starworlds/joust30thbirthday/
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:54:56 am by 1500points »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2013, 09:14:51 am »
I personally got NOS 3.5inch wico leaf sticks and...

New old stock?   when did they stop being made?


How is the micro-switch tweaking coming on? Got any measurements from the tweaked joystick?  ( I know you were mainly asking about silencing, but I'm sure you are interested in the other factors)
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2013, 09:27:06 am »
i'm just curious about the microswitch mechanics now that one is open for viewing. i'll probably mangle 1 or 2 to experiment with the physics. gotta get in the garage storage and pull out a few other styles of micros and mangle them open to play.

wico's are long gone. on klov you can still get em from hobby folks who deal in them. the wico micros are real common and some like them, i built a berzerk for someone once using one. didn't seem anything special.

i have some wico 360 opticals that have a spring. the opticals are cool, the spring is horrible. i heard putting that optical plate on a rubber grommet wico is sweet, though. never tried it.

ebay has NOS wicos frequently but you'll pay well for them. probably 50 a stick.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2013, 10:11:53 am »
i'm just curious about the microswitch mechanics now that one is open for viewing. i'll probably mangle 1 or 2 to experiment with the physics. gotta get in the garage storage and pull out a few other styles of micros and mangle them open to play.

I just modded a switch, mine only has one contact so I bent that and then drilled a 2.5mm hole and inserted a M3 screw through the top to adjust the other side.

Nub travel and noise greatly reduced, so it works. But I also have this slightly uneasy feeling because I've basically undone the whole point of this switch and now have a very poor kinematic system. The nub travel is greater than the contact travel  :lol
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2013, 10:58:50 am »
Quote
Zero slop about centre is obviously ideal. My zippy short stick has about +/-1mm free play (measured at the top of the ball).

 Thats more of an issue if your talking about analog sticks.  One thing you dont want, is for a stick or button to be so accurate, as to accidentally go off from tiny amount of touch pressure.  Thats why a leaf button doesnt have the activation point until just above the middle of travel.  Once you get to that spot however, you can easily keep it there with ease. (which really cant be done well with even the craziest modded micros)

 However, the Feel of a perfectly centered stick is much nicer on the brain.  Which is one reason why the grommets really shine.  They dont feel loosey goosey.

Quote
If I was designing a leaf joystick (or button) it would have screw adjustment, not rely on pliers for adjustment.

 But if you did that, you would create a hard stop. A collision point.  And that would make them feel and respond much worse.   The leaf buttons are designed in a way, that they almost feel bottomless.  Typical presses dont seem to bottom them out.. its only if you consciously try really hard to do so.. that you can make them bottom out.  As a result, your games feel much more relaxed and buttery smooth.   As 1500pts  mentioned, he had a certain feeling about them... but he didnt know what or why.  Well, thats one of the biggest reasons.  Zero clashing / bottoming out.

 The leaf sticks are pretty much the same.  The leafs engage fairly quickly, and so no need to go to the utmost edges.  But if you do, the grommet + the leafs springs, slow the outside edge speed and absorb much of the impact forces.  Its more gushy... like the difference between slamming your fist into a soccer ball, rather than a hardwood floor.


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2013, 11:14:49 am »
getting this detailed would probably be a fair case for anyone to call us...nerds.  ;)

here is one more leaf spring thing to think about Jim, when you get some leafs...which you will...you are too curious not too.  :)

the proper adjustment of a leaf in the Electro mechanical pinball world (where this all started) causes a proper brushing of the contacts which is a self-cleaning mechanism, too.   if you put a stop in their you are affecting the slide action as they get closer.  obviously arcade controls don't get nearly as dirty as a flipper with juice running through it causing sparks.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2013, 12:49:11 pm »
But if you did that, you would create a hard stop. A collision point. 

The screw adjuster would obviously not be under the contact point.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:07:55 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2013, 01:06:43 pm »
here is one more leaf spring thing to think about Jim, when you get some leafs...which you will...you are too curious not too.  :)

I've already got True-leafs, Randy is here becasue I said:

I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

On a cost & convenience basis for me in the UK, I would go with Goldleafs(concave) or Sanwa(convex) if starting again.

Unless you mean original style Leafs, in which case yes I probably will. If I had spotted them being sold from Europe like this http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_84 I may have paused at the price but still probably bought some.

I notice the leafs are marked as dis-continued.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2013, 02:20:14 pm »
Quote
The screw adjuster would obviously not be under the contact point.

  Where would you put them then?

 I think you have to completely redesign the leaf assembly to do it... and the result probably wouldnt fit in standard leaf buttons and leaf sticks.

 Anyways, I think you underestimate the task a little.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2013, 02:42:54 pm »
Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

It was this, and only this statement which got me into the discussion.  I do believe you will eventually come around to real leaf switches for the types of games you are interested in playing, as these titles, more than many others, benefit greatly from the types of controls selected for use by the manufacturer of the games.  If not, then that is your prerogative, but it would place you in a small minority.

One thing I find curious is the stance you have taken that firing speed is unimportant, yet have gone to several lengths in order to measure how fast one can fire with each button.  Then when you say that all are equal based on your measurements, and I demonstrate how they are not, using the same software you wrote and based your conclusion upon, suddenly it's not important.  So you seem to be bouncing around a bit with what your requirements are.   You also seem to be attempting to discredit a fairly well known fact that leaf switches are the standard upon which lesser approaches are judged, particularly with the titles in question.

So the best way forward would probably be to put your calipers away for a bit, get your panel, cabinet, etc. finished, and start playing the games.  After putting a dozen hours in on the titles you are most interested in, using each of the types you have in your possession, and developing a certain level of proficiency with both game and control, then you will know which type are best suited for you.  If you find that one is better than the other, but it happens to be outside of your budgetary, build, convenience, etc. requirements, then understand that you are making a concession and it should be recognized for what it is.  These type of concessions are just part of what it is to build arcade panels in this day in age, when so many of the original controls are no longer being produced, and/or when a panel is intended to be multi-purpose.

Quote
Unless you mean original style Leafs....I notice the leafs are marked as dis-continued.

And this type of situation is the very reason we put such a large investment into the "from the ground up" design you were able to purchase from us.  I did not wish to see what is arguably the best switch option for arcade pushbuttons sink into oblivion, and no longer be available to this community, or be relegated to possession by hoarders of the originals who command outrageous prices for what little remains.  Case in point: before GGG made the huge investments in producing TRON and Satan's Hollow handles, these were being sold for upwards of $200 each.  And the same negative situation is becoming reality with the WICO leaf joysticks.  Today, not only is this no longer true with the aforementioned handles, but the reproductions are considered by most to be superior, and they can be readily purchased for an eighth of that price.

When people forget what was, and accept mediocrity as tantamount to par, then much is lost.  And those savvy enough to know the difference, end up paying dearly.  My involvement in discussions like this one is simply to defend the facts when they become disputed, and prevent as much of that downward slide as possible.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 02:44:58 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #115 on: February 08, 2013, 03:10:39 pm »
One thing I find curious is the stance you have taken that firing speed is unimportant, yet have gone to several lengths in order to measure how fast one can fire with each button.  Then when you say that all are equal based on your measurements, and I demonstrate how they are not, using the same software you wrote and based your conclusion upon, suddenly it's not important.  So you seem to be bouncing around a bit with what your requirements are.   You also seem to be attempting to discredit a fairly well known fact that leaf switches are the standard upon which lesser approaches are judged, particularly with the titles in question.

Almost everything I have written is about firing in Defender.
You stated:
Quote
For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about

My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #116 on: February 08, 2013, 04:38:29 pm »
My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.

So what do you do in those instances where you need it and cannot provide it?  The answer is, you start on your next life, should you still happen to have one in reserve.

In at least one of those videos, "the best player" is using an ASCII stick.  So why aren't you using one of those?  I'm sure they are much less expensive, and certainly less trouble to acquire.  The one statement which would trouble me the most, were it me in your position, is where that player is mistakenly referring to his non-leaf switch buttons as leafs, and going further to say that he cannot fire as fast with those as he can with the ASCII stick.  In making such a statement, he is indicating a limitation is being imposed upon his play in specifically the areas which you don't find much importance in, with the very buttons you claim offer the same performance as real leaf switch buttons.  With these things considered, the conclusions you seem to be holding dear, simply don't add up.

But I can answer the ASCII stick question, and it's a simple one.  You aren't him.  In fact, I'm not him, and neither quite probably is anyone reading this thread.  He is a 1%er.  For the rest of us mere mortals in the 99% group, we will need at least the advantage afforded to the players by the original machine in order to have a fighting chance.

As for the "floating" of switches, those who play with actual leaf switches may not even be aware it's happening.  1500points called it "the sweet spot", and it's essentially the point at which one can stream button events to the system at a rate near to that of which it can accept them.  In a game like Joust, this can be very advantageous to get above a rapidly approaching/ascending opponent.  In Defender, it reduces the accuracy required to hit swarmers and mutants.  It's one of those things experienced players don't need....until they need it.  And you can trust me when I say those players aren't just "pressing up and down".  Observing the player, and not just the screen, yields much better information.

Also, if you could, please try to refrain from quoting millisecond time frames with regard to the videos.  There is no accurate way for a human to view any activity and state, with the level of certainty you seem to have, the intervals being observed at that resolution.  There are moments in those videos where the shots are overlaid, or on adjacent pixels.  One really can't possibly know the rate in those instances from casual observation, and certainly not from a compressed video.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 05:02:19 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #117 on: February 08, 2013, 05:03:22 pm »

I have not claimed Goldleafs are better than or even as good as leafs.

You are maikng claims about leafs and I am asking for evidence.
It's not even that I don't believe you and Xiaou, I do.     I JUST WANT TO SEE IT.

As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.


As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #118 on: February 08, 2013, 05:20:17 pm »
As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.

Heh, as I just stated, I am not a 1%er.  Should I try to find one in today's world and hire him for a promotional video?  But I'd be happy to send Mike a free button to hear his thoughts (plus I feel a little bad for him.)

Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand ;)

Quote
As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.

Look into how video compression works.  It's an exercise in futility to try to calculate things this way.  Not that it's even relevant what the "pros" with ASCII sticks do, based on everything that has been stated thus far.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2013, 05:45:22 pm »
Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand ;)

I've no interest in holding the button in my hand and trying to get a 'good score' on my test software. For what it's worth (which is ZERO) I can do a 4burst in 80ms by rubbing 4 fingers across a CLASSX.

If you yourself are not capable of floating your own switch at high speed, and you don't know anyone who is, perhaps you should tone down your statements about what's possible with it.




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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2013, 05:50:11 pm »
I've no interest in holding the button in my hand and trying to get a 'good score' on my test software. For what it's worth (which is ZERO) I can do a 4burst in 80ms by rubbing 4 fingers across a CLASSX.

I didn't do that.  But I've seen crazier stuff done by players.

Quote
If you yourself are not capable of floating your own switch at high speed, and you don't know anyone who is, perhaps you should tone down your statements about what's possible with it.

I showed I was capable of doing this.  That is what I did for your test.  That methodology is what was being discussed this entire time.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #121 on: February 08, 2013, 05:58:52 pm »
Look into how video compression works.  It's an exercise in futility to try to calculate things this way.  Not that it's even relevant what the "pros" with ASCII sticks do, based on everything that has been stated thus far.

Give me the name of any video compression algorithm that changes the speed of events they portray.

The relevance is I'm looking for evidence of super-fast fire rates.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #122 on: February 08, 2013, 06:02:43 pm »
I showed I was capable of doing this.  That is what I did for your test.  That methodology is what was being discussed this entire time.

Button installed in a horiziontal panel ?
That's the only type of firing I'm interested in.

And you didn't show anything. You made a claim.
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #123 on: February 08, 2013, 06:36:44 pm »
Button installed in a horiziontal panel ?
That's the only type of firing I'm interested in.

And you didn't show anything. You made a claim.

I'll level with you.  That 36ms average is very hard to accomplish, and I was only able to get that low 1 other time.  But it is possible, as the result shows. 

Mounted in a panel, I can very regularly break below the 100ms average on up to 10 presses, and at times, even in the 80's.  Honestly, your software doesn't really paint the whole picture.  The way it calculates, when it averages 10 presses, it can make a very fast 8 press stream look very "middle of the road"  when the last couple of activations aren't pulled off as quickly. 

But one thing which your test would be quite good at, is something sustained over a longer period of time.  I've clocked 50 presses at your 120ms average for a 4 shot burst, using the methods we have been discussing.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #124 on: February 08, 2013, 08:15:04 pm »
my rate as stated originally was 100-120ms. I seem to have abbreviated it to 120ms.  That's the rate I fire at all the time over a game, so I can do it for a 4burst or for much longer, eg my first try of 100 presses was 108ms.
edit: that 100@108ms must have involved some tremours, I slip in and out of it when trying to fire fast.

If I want to fire faster I can tense my hand and induce tremors, that gets me down to 90ms (average not best), but I don't want to do that, and it's also no good for defender. It's what I'd do for Track & field, but never liked that game.

I've noticed that I can fire faster by sort of karate chopping the button at 45 degrees (not inducing double clicks though), This is to do with being able to wiggle my hand faster side to side than up and down. (when my joystick had poor response I actually tested Defender using joystick left/right for up down, and it worked, made it easier to do a tight spray pattern).


You can say my tester doesn't show the whole picture, but I question the value of any technique that isn't repeatable at will.

Remember I've made no claims that I'm fast, only stated my speed. I was hoping to learn to fire faster.


PS. my latest version merges the average and burst speed versions
http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-AnhlVV4igo-0.py
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 08:36:12 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #125 on: February 08, 2013, 10:18:19 pm »
I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

 Is it truth you want?  Or is it just to defend your idea of whats true?  Or is it that you actually cant afford a single leaf?  Is this a sportsfan style 'pride' arguement?   A generational thing? (IE: anything from the past cant possibly be superior... Or...  Its not from my time, so Im not going to bother)

 
 Back in the day when I was learning martial arts, I researched multiple styles, before choosing one. And as I learned it, I never just accepted it to be the perfect art.  I always tested what I learned, against larger, stronger, exeperienced full contact fighters.  Id found usually that any failings were in my misunderstandings, and not the system.  However, there were many things in the system which different schools disagreed with.  How does one figure out who is correct?  Many just accept their Sifus words as gold.  I however, tested them. Finding a little bit of truth, as well as a little bit of false, withing each variant.  Furthermore, I also learned how to do things in other arts, to best know how they worked, and better defend against them.

 Furthermore, there were reports of seemingly outrageous power generation tactics, impossible feats..etc.  A lot of information, dis-information, misunderstandings, and clues...
By actually taking the serious effort (not half hearted) to go and try some of this stuff, based on the clues given, Ive re-discovered and developed things that only a select few modern artists have... (and the ones that know & can do, dont give away the procedure easily, or for free.  Even intentionally leaving out critical details... )


 The point here.. is that IF I had maintained the attitude of  'I think Im right',  or  'he cant be wrong'...etc... then I wouldnt have gotten to a high level of actual workable skillsets.

 Im surprised you dont understand floating.  Its such a simple concept...

 Take two thin electrical wires, connected to a battery, just barely apart... and wiggle. You get sparks. (Usually called a 'short')  Sparks come from the constant connect and disconnect... which is basically what floating is.  Its a flutter of micro-movments. A feather-light touch, with shallow controlled vibrations... where contacts barely connect and disconnect.. and end up creating massive amounts of registers, without huge sweeping movements.

 You cant float a standard micro, because its spring loaded snap mechanism makes that impossible.   But you can float two pieces of thin metal, quite easily.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 10:24:12 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #126 on: February 09, 2013, 02:36:53 am »
I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

He does have a real leaf switch button, but not an original.  I agree, however, that someone intent on finding the best solution, should at least run one of these through the same gamut of tests.


If you don't know what's in a goldleaf switch, how do you know that the chinese ones were 'like it'.
Did they have bits like this forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,110252.msg1169103.html#msg1169103 inside?

Sorry, I missed this question from earlier in the thread.  Don't worry, it's still relevant.  Here's the internals of the switches I have here.  I'll let you decide how similar they are;



The way these work is that bent piece on the bottom is in contact with the sliding button actuator.  When the actuator slides down against it, the two little fingers are forced out to make contact with the little bumps on the plate.  There are two fingers for redundancy.  There is no bounce, or tactile feedback whatsoever, so "floating" these types of switches isn't easy.  If you were able to get 90ms intervals with them, I'd guess you were faring better than Mike.  I gave it a shot quite a number of times, and was never able to break 100ms with this type of switch.  But I'm probably a couple of decades older, so it's not surprising.

And as long as I'm posting, I may as well make this educational and help out folks with the inexpensive import buttons which use these types of switches and almost always come in the "clicky" form.  Below is the key to removing the click, thereby making them not only quieter, but somewhat better performers;




On another note, with your latest code, I was getting best times on the leaf button between 50 (uncommon) and 70ms, with numbers in the 80's happening quite often.  I don't know whether something changed in the code, or whether the difference is in all the practice I have been getting lately :)  The interesting thing was the "Soft Touch" microswitches, which I decided to try while I had the test panel on my lap.  While it was much easier to stumble with these, intervals in the high 90's were possible, once I learned the motion of the switch.  Not too bad for a microswitch.  The feel of the light microswitch button is closer to the feel of the leaf-switch button, than the Chinese button with the above switch.  The latter has the feel of pushing into a very firm sponge, which I did not care for much, regardless of how fast I could fire with it.  There's a lot more to the button equation other than how fast they can be cycled.

Regardless, using buttons in this manner is an advanced skill, and one that takes practice in order to be able to call it upon demand.  With enough of it, one can do well with different buttons, but some types will just be better than others at certain things.

Just for fun, see the attached.  The two tests prior to this one were 72 and 70 for the same 100 presses. ;)

« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 05:43:33 am by RandyT »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #127 on: February 09, 2013, 01:25:03 pm »
I have to say Jimmer.. ......

Congratulations, you've outdone yourself with the number of strawmen and wrong assumptions you've managed to fit into that one post.

You've even managed to throw in a few ad hominems for good measure.

I look forward to you challenging me to a fight next.

quoted for posterity:
I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

 Is it truth you want?  Or is it just to defend your idea of whats true?  Or is it that you actually cant afford a single leaf?  Is this a sportsfan style 'pride' arguement?   A generational thing? (IE: anything from the past cant possibly be superior... Or...  Its not from my time, so Im not going to bother)

 
 Back in the day when I was learning martial arts, I researched multiple styles, before choosing one. And as I learned it, I never just accepted it to be the perfect art.  I always tested what I learned, against larger, stronger, exeperienced full contact fighters.  Id found usually that any failings were in my misunderstandings, and not the system.  However, there were many things in the system which different schools disagreed with.  How does one figure out who is correct?  Many just accept their Sifus words as gold.  I however, tested them. Finding a little bit of truth, as well as a little bit of false, withing each variant.  Furthermore, I also learned how to do things in other arts, to best know how they worked, and better defend against them.

 Furthermore, there were reports of seemingly outrageous power generation tactics, impossible feats..etc.  A lot of information, dis-information, misunderstandings, and clues...
By actually taking the serious effort (not half hearted) to go and try some of this stuff, based on the clues given, Ive re-discovered and developed things that only a select few modern artists have... (and the ones that know & can do, dont give away the procedure easily, or for free.  Even intentionally leaving out critical details... )


 The point here.. is that IF I had maintained the attitude of  'I think Im right',  or  'he cant be wrong'...etc... then I wouldnt have gotten to a high level of actual workable skillsets.

 Im surprised you dont understand floating.  Its such a simple concept...

 Take two thin electrical wires, connected to a battery, just barely apart... and wiggle. You get sparks. (Usually called a 'short')  Sparks come from the constant connect and disconnect... which is basically what floating is.  Its a flutter of micro-movments. A feather-light touch, with shallow controlled vibrations... where contacts barely connect and disconnect.. and end up creating massive amounts of registers, without huge sweeping movements.

 You cant float a standard micro, because its spring loaded snap mechanism makes that impossible.   But you can float two pieces of thin metal, quite easily.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 01:29:55 pm by jimmer »
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #128 on: February 09, 2013, 01:49:46 pm »
Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.


good day.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #129 on: February 09, 2013, 07:50:43 pm »
Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.

check out post #57
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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #130 on: February 10, 2013, 09:03:37 am »
Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.


good day.

A month? He hasn't even started research on USB or LCD input lag. Mars will be colonized by the time he actually plays. :lol

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #131 on: February 10, 2013, 10:51:24 am »
Off the rails it is going.....so i'll post one other observational test while playing.

The best Williams observation of a button is Joust.
Joust ramps up in difficulty to around wave 100, give or take.
At wave 16 you'll meet the blue shadow lord (worth...1500points...)
By early wave 20s you'll meet more.
By wave 60 they are tough
By wave 90 they aren't able to be outrun in a drag race to the top.

With a proper leaf you will be able to doubleflap by doing that little sweet spot wiggle to get that ostrich to blaze straight up. Which means you can still win a drag race up to around wave 60.
With a microswitch button you won't be able to outrun a Shadow Lord by early wave 20s.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #132 on: February 10, 2013, 12:09:18 pm »
The ultimate test for any control component is how well you can play Galaga with it.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #133 on: February 10, 2013, 04:40:49 pm »

one last thing!  Joust extreme master, Lon McDonald, broke the mame marathon WR on my cab (homemade joust style tabletop cab with extension for upright) the buttons were using rolley leaf conversions and the wico had no horizontal restriction, and he was playing the tougher mame 106 version of joust. he is insanely talented. http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/home/starworlds/joust30thbirthday/

We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate. 

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #134 on: February 10, 2013, 04:51:24 pm »
We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate.

I built a cabinet just to play Defender and Stargate before I got a "real" Defender. I'd never claim to be a great player, but the difference is negligible. My high scores on both machines are within a few thousand after tons of play on each. The MAME cab has microswitched buttons, and it is a little more tiring to play but I think it'd only become a factor for someone who could play for a couple hours.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:53:00 pm by TOK »

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #135 on: February 11, 2013, 06:08:44 am »
With a proper leaf you will be able to doubleflap by doing that little sweet spot wiggle to get that ostrich to blaze straight up.

Please describe this wiggle a bit more. Are you rocking the button or sliding your finger across it?

If you wiggle your finger sideways over a convex or concave button you can get 2 hits per cycle, compared to 1 hit per cycle if you press up and down. This will be easier/better with a leaf switch. Also, for me at least, I can wiggle my fingers sideways faster than up and down.

I've been experimenting with this technique for Defender but haven't got it down yet. It puts me into a thrust then burst fire mode which isn't as smooth as my normal contiunous fire mode, but for special circumstances it could be useful.

Sliding more than 1 finger across the fire button can give some awsome bursts of fire.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #136 on: February 11, 2013, 09:10:11 am »
I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

He does have a real leaf switch button, but not an original.  I agree, however, that someone intent on finding the best solution, should at least run one of these through the same gamut of tests.

As I already said, if I had spotted original style leaf buttons for sale I would have bought them, and probably not the CLASSX true-leafs. But then I'd have chosen convex buttons and missed out on seeing what concave is like (not having been to an arcade for years).

I would still buy an original leaf now in any case, because as you both say I'm kind of obliged to. But today they seem to be all sold out.  http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_84&osCsid=eh7m6favojblngrqb7uetc42g4

Is this the end of the line for original style leaf buttons? or just a temporary stock problem (yeah, i'll ask the shop too)

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #137 on: February 11, 2013, 02:34:50 pm »
Defender isnt a game in which rapidfire is required for success.  It just helps greatly in certain situations.   Try Halleys Comet.  To get all the powerups in the rocks, while taking on the enemies, will put your fire rate, & fatigue level, to the test.  And it never really lets up.  Halleys comet actually will allow some of the craziest fire rates Ive seen.. and is not limited like galagas 'you must hit something + fire at that same moment'  trick... nor limited by number of bullets on-screen, like other games.

 Galaga is good, but there are moments of rest. Still, if your a good player, after 6 to 10mins, your gona start to really feel the burn.  Xevious, if you want to try to catch all the enemies as well as bomb the ground... you will be non-stop firing, with little to no rest... is also a good test of endurance and fatigue.

 Fatigue being the biggest issue.   As for mere speed requirements, try killing every block on the MCP cone in Tron.  If you can do that, you will get a bonus.  Also, while the first may be manageable... by the 2nd or 3rd MCP cone, the speed is so great, that it becomes very difficult  (or impossible)  to get every block before the cone crushes you.

 While yes, I can play many of these games and lay down some good damage using my laptop style keys keyboard... which probably are similar in to micros, I can get that smooth effortless floating that comes from a non-bottoming out leaf.

 And with Joysticks, I still cant do anywhere near as good in Robotron, due to the quicker shorter throw activation, and smooth easy feel that come from a rubber grommets  non-edge bashing, gives.


Quote
We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate. 

 The worlds fastest runner could run with small rocks in his slippery dress shoes... and still probably be do way better than the average joe.   Just as a really good martial artist, may be able to kick just fine with heavy boots on.  Win or not, it does not mean theres disadvantages.

 Whether it be comfort, fatigue, reaction time or performance.

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #138 on: February 11, 2013, 02:43:08 pm »

Quote
Is this the end of the line for original style leaf buttons? or just a temporary stock problem (yeah, i'll ask the shop too)

 I appreciate your dilemma... as even in reality, I dont have all NOS leafs, which may or may not have some metal fatigue due to their age and use.

 But some things I recommend,  are to grab a used control panel off ebay.  A lot of times you can get them with a good deal of leaf switches, and their buttons + mountings.

 Another thing to immediately do, is check the local craigslist for games being sold, like Asteroids Deluxe, Joust, etc..   and also, if you have newsgroup ability.. search the arcade section, and as to visit any local collectors house.  Get a feel for them 1st hand, in a real machine, thats hopefully been cleaned, repaired, and well maintained.... (and verify under the CP, that all controls are original too)


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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #139 on: February 11, 2013, 07:15:33 pm »
The UK is a bit sparse when it comes to buying loose control panels, so that is a tough one. Shipping over the pond is expensive. I recently shipped a populated multi-williams panel of Defender proportions to the UK via USPS- shipping was $70US!

Jim, those joust buttons are just pinball style buttons. all this stuff originated in pinball, ie was stocked in the Williams pinball factory. for example on a joust, the leaf is a plain old leaf like you'd use in a pinball machine, screwed right to the wood.  so that means those buttons and leafs can all be sourced directly from pinball sites, you don't need arcadeshop to be in stock. check places like marcos specialties, and anything else that googles.  but still i guess that really isn't so important, and not really worth the $$$.  did you know there are a couple retro arcade events going on around London this year, might be able to play some real Williams machines if you are lucky.

the sweet spot wiggle is this-
1- take your first and second finger and wiggle them real fast. practice hitting your keyboard in a soft quick repetition with the pads or edge of finger just below the fingernail. slight arc in hand.
2- a real williams button is a bit taller than the buttons we've been discussing, but the concept is the same.-- practice the "double flap" while pre-loading the button by pressing it a bit. your fingers will start making tiny movements instead of exagerated back and forth
3- then apply more downward on the button or less until you are flapping when the button is exactly at that moment of contact
4- when found, the sweet spot, you will find the ostrich blazes because you are barely "scratching" those 2 leafs together with miniscule opening and closing of the contact.
5- it is a fine motor finesse thing that you won't fully get for over a month of playing a game like joust every single day. then it's like a bicycle, it'll feel normal and you'll do it without conscious thought.
6- handy for track and field if you aren't a multi-finger masher style player.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 07:18:27 pm by 1500points »

jimmer

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #140 on: February 11, 2013, 07:51:53 pm »
the sweet spot wiggle is this-
1- take your first and second finger and wiggle them real fast. practice hitting your keyboard in a soft quick repetition with the pads or edge of finger just below the fingernail. slight arc in hand.

I hadn't thought of this, yet another technique. Not much use for Defender though unless you can do it with 2nd and 3rd finger.

I've managed to get one leaf button on order now, and a couple of Rollie's.
On forums jimmer speaks for himself as a Defender fan, not as proprietor of www.jbgaming.co.uk  << Is that advertising or disclosure ? or both ?

1500points

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Re: Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.
« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2013, 08:59:20 am »
very common in the US arcades during the 82 era.