Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

[BadMouth]

I got the idea in my head now of trying to make a button that is less than 3/4" deep so the reverse button can be mounted halfway overtop the joystick mounting plate.

One way would be to shorten a button by cutting a section out of the center, only keep one leg on the plunger, and have the switch flipped around so only a small part is actually under the button.  (think I might have to do something in MS paint while at work)

I'd consider it blasphemy, but a seimitsu snap-in button could work. The main body is under 3/4" and the portion from the switch body to the edge could be over top of the joystick plate.
http://www.arcadeshop.de/images/specs/arcade-pb-ps14k-data.gif


EDIT: attached shabby MS paint rendition of Happ button hack.  The switch would be held in place by a separate mounting tab.

[jimmer]

I expect it will.  For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about .

If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen 

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

[jimmer]

Take the bottom plate off the Zippyy stick and adjust the levers on the switches.  They can be tweaked such that even a small movement of the stick actuates the switch.  I just did this recently for someone who ordered one for two-way operation, and it works very well.

I'm thinking about that at the moment.
Even started a thread on it http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,130196.0.html

[jimmer]

I'd consider it blasphemy, but a seimitsu snap-in button could work. The main body is under 3/4" and the portion from the switch body to the edge could be over top of the joystick plate.

Not sure what's blashemous about seimitsu, but I can't think of a better button than the sanwa convex that I'm using for reverse.

I put it right next to my zippy and I don't feel the need to move it any further left. But if I did, in a 19mm panel it would go another 6mm over. The TRICK is to carefully file the hole in MDF (maybe plywood too) so that the button screws in, no nut required

[RandyT]

If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen 

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

Perhaps, but you better be able to put those in a tight group, and do it often.  Everyone has a different style of play, but I've always found that laying down a wall of fire  in areas where no humans are being nabbed is important, and 4 shots in half the screen isn't going to cut it, unless you can do the same in the other half as well .

Also, you should be able to get better than that with the timing, on a properly tuned leaf and a little practice.

I'm thinking about that at the moment.
Even started a thread on it http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,130196.0.html

You are overthinking it.  You don't need diagonals, so they are out of the equation.  Just hold the switch in your hand and depress the lever.  Now hold the lever tightly against the switch body, right at the front corner, and flex the blade upward until it's about parallel.  Install it in the joystick and test it.  If it needs a little more, do the same thing until it's the way you want it.  Then remember how far you flexed it, and do the same with the other three.

What you are basically doing is "pre-loading" the switch so that the blade is in contact with the actuator, and sits just above the actuation point of the switch.

[BadMouth]

Not sure what's blashemous about seimitsu, but I can't think of a better button than the sanwa convex that I'm using for reverse.

Just that it's not a classic style.  My current build has all seimitsu, but it leans towards the modern fighters and shmups. 
If I were doing a cab for classics, I wouldn't dream of using anything but concave buttons.

[jimmer]

If you said track&field or joust level 60 I wouldn't have the experience to comment. But I wouldn't class Defender as particlularly rapid fire (I don't need to tense/vibrate my hand) and all 3 buttons are fully capable of getting off 4 shots on the screen.  This is where the Defender pros join in say they get a 4shot burst of in half a screen 

This is my speedtester http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-7.py  I do about 100ms-120ms on all buttons.

Perhaps, but you better be able to put those in a tight group, and do it often.  Everyone has a different style of play, but I've always found that laying down a wall of fire  in areas where no humans are being nabbed is important, and 4 shots in half the screen isn't going to cut it, unless you can do the same in the other half as well .

Also, you should be able to get better than that with the timing, on a properly tuned leaf and a little practice.

Maybe we are at cross purposes, by half a screen I meant half the distance from the ship to side of the screen. Ive seen a few videos of the pro's and they don't appear to be firing much faster. Now I'm going to have to download the videos and analyse the fire rates. 

I was hoping people would post their firing speeds.

Here's a 4 burst timer http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-S7RcwY5zDF-8.py

[RandyT]

Attached is a screen grab of my best time with your program and a CLASSX with the True-Leaf switch.

Also keep in mind that Defender is as much a test of endurance as anything else.  The easier it is to rip off those shots, the better you will do over the course of the game, as you will be doing it a lot.

[jimmer]

You are overthinking it.  You don't need diagonals, so they are out of the equation.  Just hold the switch in your hand and depress the lever.  Now hold the lever tightly against the switch body, right at the front corner, and flex the blade upward until it's about parallel.  Install it in the joystick and test it.  If it needs a little more, do the same thing until it's the way you want it.  Then remember how far you flexed it, and do the same with the other three.

I will do that now for my 4way as its easy.

But I'm also thinking about Robotron 8ways, which is more complicated when tweaking.

[jimmer]

Attached is a screen grab of my best time with your program and a CLASSX with the True-Leaf switch.

Also keep in mind that Defender is as much a test of endurance as anything else.  The easier it is to rip off those shots, the better you will do over the course of the game, as you will be doing it a lot.

Wow that's seriously quick.

But before we go too far. The program is not quality tested, and it's possible the clock slows down on slower hardware, busy browsers, I don't realy know      Anyone using it should press at medium speed (but more than 1 per second) for a timed period (say 20s) just to test the timer.

Anyway, was that using a technique you could do all day? I can fire faster (than 100ms) if I tense my hand and sort of vibrate it, but couldn't do that for long.

[BadMouth]

But I'm also thinking about Robotron 8ways, which is more complicated when tweaking.

When tweaking 4/8 way performance, I found it useful to install Headkaze's Vjoy:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy
Create a virtual analog joystick, then map your joystick to it.
Then bring up the virtual joystick in windows control panel and you'll be able to see a visible representation of when the joystick is hitting the directions and corners.
(Not sure why, but the hat switch doesn't show when you hit the corners)

I'm using a Sanwa JLF with optical switches and have plans to make a circuit that automatically reduces the sensetivity for 4-way games. 
Using V-joy allowed me to see exactly when the corners could no longer be hit.

[RandyT]

But before we go too far. The program is not quality tested, and it's possible the clock slows down on slower hardware, busy browsers, I don't realy know      Anyone using it should press at medium speed (but more than 1 per second) for a timed period (say 20s) just to test the timer.

3ghz Core2 Quad fast enough?

Anyway, was that using a technique you could do all day? I can fire faster (than 100ms) if I tense my hand and sort of vibrate it, but couldn't do that for long.

Sure.  If that helps your game, that's how you play.  I can also walk all day long, but not if someone is chasing me with a baseball bat 

[jimmer]

3ghz Core2 Quad fast enough?

should be,  it's more the browser based python emulation with interrupt driven counter that could be very sketchy!

Sure.  If that helps your game, that's how you play.  I can also walk all day long, but not if someone is chasing me with a baseball bat   

Just played a game, and I can see the benefits of even faster firing. I'm using the CLASSX for fire, so I'd better get practicing.


Anyway, I just tweaked my joystick down from 14mm up to down, to about 8mm. And it's so much better.     Almost as responsive as buttons.

I can't really go much further because there is about +/-1mm of dead movement about the centre, and then there is 2mm of disengage, so +/- 4mm is about the best I could do.

With the cross (4way) restrictor I can now hit the diagonals, which may cause problems??? Is it just the feel of the 4way restrictor that people like, or is it also that some games will be confused by the diagonal switch combination?

[jimmer]

When tweaking 4/8 way performance, I found it useful to install Headkaze's Vjoy:
http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy
Create a virtual analog joystick, then map your joystick to it.
Then bring up the virtual joystick in windows control panel and you'll be able to see a visible representation of when the joystick is hitting the directions and corners.

Thanks, that could be useful. Especially if I get quiter switches, it's already hard to tell engage click from disengage 

What part of control panel?
I'm on windows7, I found the joystick in device manager, but can't see any sort of test screen. can't see it in devices and printers section.

[RandyT]

should be,  it's more the browser based python emulation with interrupt driven counter that could be very sketchy!

I'm sure that result is accurate, at least relative to yours.  It took a few times for me to get that time, mainly because I did it while holding the button with one hand and tapping it with the other.  When mounted on the panel and having a place to rest your hand, it's much easier to do repeatedly.  But I was getting times similar to yours at times when I was going slow.  On the time I did the test posted, there was a literal stream  of changes.  This is what a properly tuned, good leaf switch can provide with a little practice, and really what it is known for.  It's also important that the encoder can keep up with it.  If not, you will never be able to go faster than the encoder is capable of discerning and pushing out to the system.

Just played a game, and I can see the benefits of even faster firing. I'm using the CLASSX for fire, so I'd better get practicing.

Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

Anyway, I just tweaked my joystick down from 14mm up to down, to about 8mm. And it's so much better.     Almost as responsive as buttons.

I can't really go much further because there is about +/-1mm of dead movement about the centre, and then there is 2mm of disengage, so +/- 4mm is about the best I could do.

Congrats!  I'm assuming the distances are measured at the knob of the stick.  Honestly, with a microswitch based joystick, that's as good as can be expected.  Also note that the length of the joystick will play a big role, which is one of the reasons many were so short to the panel.  If you used the long handle Zippyy instead, that distance would probably increase by 50% or more.

With the cross (4way) restrictor I can now hit the diagonals, which may cause problems??? Is it just the feel of the 4way restrictor that people like, or is it also that some games will be confused by the diagonal switch combination?

If you make sure the unimportant directions are undefined, there shouldn't be an issue.  The original games didn't have code to use those, so they should be ignored.  If it works well, don't worry about the diagonals, unless you are playing a 4-way with it, and even then, don't worry until you actually see an issue when playing them.  You are trying to do several things with one stick, so there will have to be a tradeoff.

RandyT

[jimmer]

It's also important that the encoder can keep up with it.  If not, you will never be able to go faster than the encoder is capable of discerning and pushing out to the system.

I'm sure the minimusAVR is capable. If I press 6 buttons at a time I can get down to 20ms 

Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

I left it the way it went together, which was about 1mm of travel. Seeing as this is halfway through the total travel it seemed right to me.

Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I imagined 'floating the contact' as moving up and down making contact without hitting either of the end stops.

I'll try it with a smaller gap, but I can't see cutting 1mm to 0.2mm will make a lot of difference.


I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.

[RandyT]

I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.

Yes, one press = one action, but that's not what I did.  I could have, however, but probably not at the same speed.

Well, that's the beauty of a leaf switch.  You can adjust it any way that's right for you.

[jimmer]

So here is some final pics (for now).

I straightened up the 4way, and ground 2mm from the zippy steel plate (because I used 13mm mdf the sanwa only pokes through 1mm).  Final position of the reverse is 44mm horizontal 22mm vertical compared to Original Defender which I believe is 44mm horizontal 35mm vertical.

This was supposed to be a gash mock-up but there is almost nothing I want to change so far. I'd close the gap between left/right buttons buts it's hardly a chasm 

The 2 floating buttons are in case of 2 player game that needs joystick and 2 buttons, or I might use them for coin and start.

[1500points]

one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

[RandyT]

one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

I saw at one time PBJ melted away the "nubs" with a soldering iron.  The same could be done pretty easily by trimming with a hobby knife, if they bother you.  But they do serve a purpose to prevent diagonals, which may or may not be an issue.

[jimmer]

one tip on the 4 way zippyy actuator.
i found that clover leaf annoying, used the squarish 8 way template, rotated it into a diamond shape and drilled out the 2 tabs for the mounting bolts.  makes a nice diamond like a wico 4 way base, much better control.

I'm still pondering the 4way restrictor.   

Since I tweaked the switches, the cloverleaf doesn't block the diagonals anymore, so I've got nothing to lose by trying the diamond.

Is the diamond motion traditional for 4way games?  Pacman, Pengo.

[jimmer]

I'm also wondering if with a gap that small, whether play in the button or some bounce or something is given you more fires than actual presses?   Did you actually do 6 up/down presses to get your 6 presses?

eg I can get 8 presses average 30ms by running 2 fingers sideways across the button, but thats not really what I'm after.

Yes, one press = one action, but that's not what I did.  I could have, however, but probably not at the same speed.

Well, that's the beauty of a leaf switch.  You can adjust it any way that's right for you.

Is this reply deliberately confusing to hide some secret technique?





Also, I just looked back and spotted this:

For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about .

Make sure you tweak the switch so that you can barely see light through the contacts, and make sure the top leaf is in contact with the plunger leg.  This puts the actuation right the top, so you won't be looking for it buried in the throw of the button.  Not having to press it as far also cuts down on the time required.  This is very beneficial with a game like Joust, where it is sometimes necessary to flap very quickly.

So which is it ?

[RandyT]

Is this reply deliberately confusing to hide some secret technique?

Heh, no.  The two methods of using the button configured like this are not mutually exclusive.  If you want to press the button once and have it fire 1 time, that will work.  But if you also want to be able to rip off fire like nobody's business, you can use the "vibrate" technique.

It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

[jimmer]

It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

How do you adjust it with a barely visible gap at the top, and also hold the button down and vibrate it about the contact point?

Can you vibrate your finger up and down half a barely visible gap ?  (which for sake of argumant say is 0.1mm)

[RandyT]

It's the same adjustment.  The only thing that changes is how you use the button, based on the game you are playing.

How do you adjust it with a barely visible gap at the top, and also hold the button down and vibrate it about the contact point?

Can you vibrate your finger up and down half a barely visible gap ?  (which for sake of argumant say is 0.1mm)

Again, you can adjust it any way you please.  The gap is the same, or at least it can be, and where you place that gap is up to you.  If you would rather have the action occur midway into the button press, simply move both leaves into that position, with the same gap. 

For absolute control, i.e. knowing without a doubt where the contact closure occurs, the only way to do this is by placing actuation toward the top of the throw.  This may not be for everyone, but it's where I prefer it.  Other types of switches don't provide this kind of tweakability, so whatever they are is what you must adjust to, including any limitations they might impose on your play.  I actually have a real Defender control panel here, and Williams used long, springy leaf switches, and an extension which translated movement on the button to shorter motion at the contacts, so rapid fire was easy to pull off.  The methods I outlined will allow you the same performance as the original.

[1500points]

side note, i was thinking that defender only allows 4 live shots at a time from your ship. and sometimes that can help overload the processing so items are teleported to opposite side of world. sometimes a benefit and sometimes a hindrance.  I'll have to double check the defender guide that was proofed by the vidkidz to confirm......

the current defender masters that play on 99-99 remove those springs. probably just preference.

for that "leaf bounce" it is handy on real wico leafs in robotron where you are flutter firing between 2 directions. but the micros can do it too, once you fine tune your technique.

EDIT- Here it is- http://mahugh.com/defender-the-last-word/chapter-2-the-controls/
Defender allows a limited number of shots on the screen at a single time.  In Defender, the limit is four; once you have fired four times, you can’t fire again until one of those shots has hit something or passed off the edge of the screen.  But unless you have exceptionally fast fingers you won’t notice this limit, since your shots travel so fast that the first one is almost always off the screen before you’ve hit the fire button four more times.

[jimmer]

Are you mikeville66 ?

fastest 4burst I've seen in his videos so far is 330ms from first bullet to 4th bullet becoming visible, it's at 16.600s


360ms burst here at 06:33.840 

[1500points]

ha, no. that is mikael lindholm from stockholm, sweden. he goes by mikeville or MOS.  best defender player on the planet.  he is in the FB group you are in.

[jimmer]

just food a Spriggsy video, sure he fires faster, I'll post his times up in a minute when I find a good one.

[RandyT]

Jimmer, are you a pro Defender player?  If so, and you can place shots like the person playing in those videos, then you won't need to worry about firing speed.

[1500points]

Spriggsy is Paul. In those vids it is all keyboard, not sure which key he uses to fire.  since then he switched to a CP with ultimarc goldleafs.
he is also in the FB group.

[jimmer]

Jimmer, are you a pro Defender player?  If so, and you can place shots like the person playing in those videos, then you won't need to worry about firing speed.

LOL, that's what I said right at the start. I can fire fast enough with any of the buttons I bought. 

[jimmer]

the free air bursts at 15s  are 233ms [edit: oops, 330ms) first shot to 4th shot out the gun.


but maybe that's a different technique to when he's covering the thrust.

Have we had enough of speed firing yet?

[RandyT]

LOL, that's what I said right at the start. I can fire fast enough with any of the buttons I bought. 

I'm confused.  So you are a pro player and don't need rapid fire?  I guess I missed that part

In those vids it is all keyboard...

That's amazing.  Someone who can do that well on a keyboard isn't going to be hampered by any reasonable arcade control put in front of him.

Have we had enough of speed firing yet?

I'm not sure you noticed, but his play style has 4 shots on the screen at all times when there are targets closing in on him.  If you don't think that has anything to do with doing well with the game, you either haven't played it much, or have played it so much, you don't need it.

[jimmer]

I'm confused.  So you are a pro player and don't need rapid fire?  I guess I missed that part

I think we're both confused . I see what you're saying now though, I either need to be super accurate or super fast. Unfortunately I'm neither (yet).

[1500points]

ha, enough to feel like an inadequate mortal....

back to the 4 way restrictor.  yes all 4-way games that used wico's used the diamond shape to guide the actuator. it lets the NSWE hit but the straight angle keeps the angles from triggering both contacts. ie no NE, SE, SW, NW.

frenzy, berzerk, xevious need 8 way. most maze games are 4 way, pacman, rallyx, pengo, dk, etc.

[jimmer]

I'm not sure you noticed, but his play style has 4 shots on the screen at all times when there are targets closing in on him.  If you don't think that has anything to do with doing well with the game, you either haven't played it much, or have played it so much, you don't need it.

Indeed, which equates to a constant 120ms fire rate(or less, I haven't calculated it yet).  So I don't need to be able to float my contacts at 50ms

[RandyT]

Indeed, which equates to a constant 120ms fire rate(or less, I haven't calculated it yet).  So I don't need to be able to float my contacts at 50ms

First, your calculations are a little suspect if you think you can calculate those speeds from a YouTube video .  And second, you are correct, you don't need to do that.  But there is a fatigue issue with Defender, Joust, Stargate, etc.  The more up and down action you need to perform on the fire button to sustain those speeds, the more tired you become.  What you can do in a few short bursts is quite different than what you will be able to do after 10 or 15 minutes.  Microswitches are the worst in this regard, but a real leaf switch is unbeatable....well, outside of cheating and using a rapid fire circuit.

Also, don't forget to take into account that some of those shots in the videos are actually laid over one another. 

[1500points]

Spriggsy replied about the firing subject which should lay that one to rest since he is one of the extreme masters on the planet-
------------------
Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

The only benefit to quick fire is if a pack of swarmers is heading quickly toward you, or you have mutants up your ass and you need to quickly reverse and pick off as many as possible. The new controller is forcing me to play with more control than speed, which is taking time to get used to but it will be better in the long run.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

[jimmer]

I'm sure it's not over yet!

It could be, if one of the code dissasemblers tells us that it's not posssible to fire faster than XX.

I do see the advantage of having a super-rapid fire in your set of skills (even though I've not spotted it yet in any of the top players)