Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

[RandyT]

I've no interest in holding the button in my hand and trying to get a 'good score' on my test software. For what it's worth (which is ZERO) I can do a 4burst in 80ms by rubbing 4 fingers across a CLASSX.

I didn't do that.  But I've seen crazier stuff done by players.

If you yourself are not capable of floating your own switch at high speed, and you don't know anyone who is, perhaps you should tone down your statements about what's possible with it.

I showed I was capable of doing this.  That is what I did for your test.  That methodology is what was being discussed this entire time.

[jimmer]

Look into how video compression works.  It's an exercise in futility to try to calculate things this way.  Not that it's even relevant what the "pros" with ASCII sticks do, based on everything that has been stated thus far.

Give me the name of any video compression algorithm that changes the speed of events they portray.

The relevance is I'm looking for evidence of super-fast fire rates.

[jimmer]

I showed I was capable of doing this.  That is what I did for your test.  That methodology is what was being discussed this entire time.

Button installed in a horiziontal panel ?
That's the only type of firing I'm interested in.

And you didn't show anything. You made a claim.

[RandyT]

Button installed in a horiziontal panel ?
That's the only type of firing I'm interested in.

And you didn't show anything. You made a claim.

I'll level with you.  That 36ms average is very hard to accomplish, and I was only able to get that low 1 other time.  But it is possible, as the result shows. 

Mounted in a panel, I can very regularly break below the 100ms average on up to 10 presses, and at times, even in the 80's.  Honestly, your software doesn't really paint the whole picture.  The way it calculates, when it averages 10 presses, it can make a very fast 8 press stream look very "middle of the road"  when the last couple of activations aren't pulled off as quickly. 

But one thing which your test would be quite good at, is something sustained over a longer period of time.  I've clocked 50 presses at your 120ms average for a 4 shot burst, using the methods we have been discussing.

[jimmer]

my rate as stated originally was 100-120ms. I seem to have abbreviated it to 120ms.  That's the rate I fire at all the time over a game, so I can do it for a 4burst or for much longer, eg my first try of 100 presses was 108ms.
edit: that 100@108ms must have involved some tremours, I slip in and out of it when trying to fire fast.

If I want to fire faster I can tense my hand and induce tremors, that gets me down to 90ms (average not best), but I don't want to do that, and it's also no good for defender. It's what I'd do for Track & field, but never liked that game.

I've noticed that I can fire faster by sort of karate chopping the button at 45 degrees (not inducing double clicks though), This is to do with being able to wiggle my hand faster side to side than up and down. (when my joystick had poor response I actually tested Defender using joystick left/right for up down, and it worked, made it easier to do a tight spray pattern).


You can say my tester doesn't show the whole picture, but I question the value of any technique that isn't repeatable at will.

Remember I've made no claims that I'm fast, only stated my speed. I was hoping to learn to fire faster.


PS. my latest version merges the average and burst speed versions
http://www.codeskulptor.org/#user8-AnhlVV4igo-0.py

[Xiaou2]

I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

 Is it truth you want?  Or is it just to defend your idea of whats true?  Or is it that you actually cant afford a single leaf?  Is this a sportsfan style 'pride' arguement?   A generational thing? (IE: anything from the past cant possibly be superior... Or...  Its not from my time, so Im not going to bother)

 
 Back in the day when I was learning martial arts, I researched multiple styles, before choosing one. And as I learned it, I never just accepted it to be the perfect art.  I always tested what I learned, against larger, stronger, exeperienced full contact fighters.  Id found usually that any failings were in my misunderstandings, and not the system.  However, there were many things in the system which different schools disagreed with.  How does one figure out who is correct?  Many just accept their Sifus words as gold.  I however, tested them. Finding a little bit of truth, as well as a little bit of false, withing each variant.  Furthermore, I also learned how to do things in other arts, to best know how they worked, and better defend against them.

 Furthermore, there were reports of seemingly outrageous power generation tactics, impossible feats..etc.  A lot of information, dis-information, misunderstandings, and clues...
By actually taking the serious effort (not half hearted) to go and try some of this stuff, based on the clues given, Ive re-discovered and developed things that only a select few modern artists have... (and the ones that know & can do, dont give away the procedure easily, or for free.  Even intentionally leaving out critical details... )


 The point here.. is that IF I had maintained the attitude of  'I think Im right',  or  'he cant be wrong'...etc... then I wouldnt have gotten to a high level of actual workable skillsets.

 Im surprised you dont understand floating.  Its such a simple concept...

 Take two thin electrical wires, connected to a battery, just barely apart... and wiggle. You get sparks. (Usually called a 'short')  Sparks come from the constant connect and disconnect... which is basically what floating is.  Its a flutter of micro-movments. A feather-light touch, with shallow controlled vibrations... where contacts barely connect and disconnect.. and end up creating massive amounts of registers, without huge sweeping movements.

 You cant float a standard micro, because its spring loaded snap mechanism makes that impossible.   But you can float two pieces of thin metal, quite easily.

[RandyT]

I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

He does have a real leaf switch button, but not an original.  I agree, however, that someone intent on finding the best solution, should at least run one of these through the same gamut of tests.

If you don't know what's in a goldleaf switch, how do you know that the chinese ones were 'like it'.
Did they have bits like this forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,110252.msg1169103.html#msg1169103 inside?

Sorry, I missed this question from earlier in the thread.  Don't worry, it's still relevant.  Here's the internals of the switches I have here.  I'll let you decide how similar they are;



The way these work is that bent piece on the bottom is in contact with the sliding button actuator.  When the actuator slides down against it, the two little fingers are forced out to make contact with the little bumps on the plate.  There are two fingers for redundancy.  There is no bounce, or tactile feedback whatsoever, so "floating" these types of switches isn't easy.  If you were able to get 90ms intervals with them, I'd guess you were faring better than Mike.  I gave it a shot quite a number of times, and was never able to break 100ms with this type of switch.  But I'm probably a couple of decades older, so it's not surprising.

And as long as I'm posting, I may as well make this educational and help out folks with the inexpensive import buttons which use these types of switches and almost always come in the "clicky" form.  Below is the key to removing the click, thereby making them not only quieter, but somewhat better performers;




On another note, with your latest code, I was getting best times on the leaf button between 50 (uncommon) and 70ms, with numbers in the 80's happening quite often.  I don't know whether something changed in the code, or whether the difference is in all the practice I have been getting lately   The interesting thing was the "Soft Touch" microswitches, which I decided to try while I had the test panel on my lap.  While it was much easier to stumble with these, intervals in the high 90's were possible, once I learned the motion of the switch.  Not too bad for a microswitch.  The feel of the light microswitch button is closer to the feel of the leaf-switch button, than the Chinese button with the above switch.  The latter has the feel of pushing into a very firm sponge, which I did not care for much, regardless of how fast I could fire with it.  There's a lot more to the button equation other than how fast they can be cycled.

Regardless, using buttons in this manner is an advanced skill, and one that takes practice in order to be able to call it upon demand.  With enough of it, one can do well with different buttons, but some types will just be better than others at certain things.

Just for fun, see the attached.  The two tests prior to this one were 72 and 70 for the same 100 presses.

[jimmer]

I have to say Jimmer.. ......

Congratulations, you've outdone yourself with the number of strawmen and wrong assumptions you've managed to fit into that one post.

You've even managed to throw in a few ad hominems for good measure.

I look forward to you challenging me to a fight next.

quoted for posterity:

I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

 Is it truth you want?  Or is it just to defend your idea of whats true?  Or is it that you actually cant afford a single leaf?  Is this a sportsfan style 'pride' arguement?   A generational thing? (IE: anything from the past cant possibly be superior... Or...  Its not from my time, so Im not going to bother)

 
 Back in the day when I was learning martial arts, I researched multiple styles, before choosing one. And as I learned it, I never just accepted it to be the perfect art.  I always tested what I learned, against larger, stronger, exeperienced full contact fighters.  Id found usually that any failings were in my misunderstandings, and not the system.  However, there were many things in the system which different schools disagreed with.  How does one figure out who is correct?  Many just accept their Sifus words as gold.  I however, tested them. Finding a little bit of truth, as well as a little bit of false, withing each variant.  Furthermore, I also learned how to do things in other arts, to best know how they worked, and better defend against them.

 Furthermore, there were reports of seemingly outrageous power generation tactics, impossible feats..etc.  A lot of information, dis-information, misunderstandings, and clues...
By actually taking the serious effort (not half hearted) to go and try some of this stuff, based on the clues given, Ive re-discovered and developed things that only a select few modern artists have... (and the ones that know & can do, dont give away the procedure easily, or for free.  Even intentionally leaving out critical details... )


 The point here.. is that IF I had maintained the attitude of  'I think Im right',  or  'he cant be wrong'...etc... then I wouldnt have gotten to a high level of actual workable skillsets.

 Im surprised you dont understand floating.  Its such a simple concept...

 Take two thin electrical wires, connected to a battery, just barely apart... and wiggle. You get sparks. (Usually called a 'short')  Sparks come from the constant connect and disconnect... which is basically what floating is.  Its a flutter of micro-movments. A feather-light touch, with shallow controlled vibrations... where contacts barely connect and disconnect.. and end up creating massive amounts of registers, without huge sweeping movements.

 You cant float a standard micro, because its spring loaded snap mechanism makes that impossible.   But you can float two pieces of thin metal, quite easily.

[chopperthedog]

Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.


good day.

[jimmer]

Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.

check out post #57

[TOK]

Wow 4 pages and almost a month later with nothing. OP get off the computer and actually build something already.


good day.

A month? He hasn't even started research on USB or LCD input lag. Mars will be colonized by the time he actually plays.

[1500points]

Off the rails it is going.....so i'll post one other observational test while playing.

The best Williams observation of a button is Joust.
Joust ramps up in difficulty to around wave 100, give or take.
At wave 16 you'll meet the blue shadow lord (worth...1500points...)
By early wave 20s you'll meet more.
By wave 60 they are tough
By wave 90 they aren't able to be outrun in a drag race to the top.

With a proper leaf you will be able to doubleflap by doing that little sweet spot wiggle to get that ostrich to blaze straight up. Which means you can still win a drag race up to around wave 60.
With a microswitch button you won't be able to outrun a Shadow Lord by early wave 20s.

[yotsuya]

The ultimate test for any control component is how well you can play Galaga with it.

[wp34]

one last thing!  Joust extreme master, Lon McDonald, broke the mame marathon WR on my cab (homemade joust style tabletop cab with extension for upright) the buttons were using rolley leaf conversions and the wico had no horizontal restriction, and he was playing the tougher mame 106 version of joust. he is insanely talented. http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/home/starworlds/joust30thbirthday/

We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate. 

[TOK]

We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate.

I built a cabinet just to play Defender and Stargate before I got a "real" Defender. I'd never claim to be a great player, but the difference is negligible. My high scores on both machines are within a few thousand after tons of play on each. The MAME cab has microswitched buttons, and it is a little more tiring to play but I think it'd only become a factor for someone who could play for a couple hours.

[jimmer]

With a proper leaf you will be able to doubleflap by doing that little sweet spot wiggle to get that ostrich to blaze straight up.

Please describe this wiggle a bit more. Are you rocking the button or sliding your finger across it?

If you wiggle your finger sideways over a convex or concave button you can get 2 hits per cycle, compared to 1 hit per cycle if you press up and down. This will be easier/better with a leaf switch. Also, for me at least, I can wiggle my fingers sideways faster than up and down.

I've been experimenting with this technique for Defender but haven't got it down yet. It puts me into a thrust then burst fire mode which isn't as smooth as my normal contiunous fire mode, but for special circumstances it could be useful.

Sliding more than 1 finger across the fire button can give some awsome bursts of fire.

[jimmer]

I have to say Jimmer.. for one who spends so much energy trying to argue a position, without even knowing what the grass is like on the other side of the field...  One would think plopping down a few dollars for a real leaf wouldnt be a big deal.

He does have a real leaf switch button, but not an original.  I agree, however, that someone intent on finding the best solution, should at least run one of these through the same gamut of tests.

As I already said, if I had spotted original style leaf buttons for sale I would have bought them, and probably not the CLASSX true-leafs. But then I'd have chosen convex buttons and missed out on seeing what concave is like (not having been to an arcade for years).

I would still buy an original leaf now in any case, because as you both say I'm kind of obliged to. But today they seem to be all sold out.  http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_84&osCsid=eh7m6favojblngrqb7uetc42g4

Is this the end of the line for original style leaf buttons? or just a temporary stock problem (yeah, i'll ask the shop too)

[Xiaou2]

Defender isnt a game in which rapidfire is required for success.  It just helps greatly in certain situations.   Try Halleys Comet.  To get all the powerups in the rocks, while taking on the enemies, will put your fire rate, & fatigue level, to the test.  And it never really lets up.  Halleys comet actually will allow some of the craziest fire rates Ive seen.. and is not limited like galagas 'you must hit something + fire at that same moment'  trick... nor limited by number of bullets on-screen, like other games.

 Galaga is good, but there are moments of rest. Still, if your a good player, after 6 to 10mins, your gona start to really feel the burn.  Xevious, if you want to try to catch all the enemies as well as bomb the ground... you will be non-stop firing, with little to no rest... is also a good test of endurance and fatigue.

 Fatigue being the biggest issue.   As for mere speed requirements, try killing every block on the MCP cone in Tron.  If you can do that, you will get a bonus.  Also, while the first may be manageable... by the 2nd or 3rd MCP cone, the speed is so great, that it becomes very difficult  (or impossible)  to get every block before the cone crushes you.

 While yes, I can play many of these games and lay down some good damage using my laptop style keys keyboard... which probably are similar in to micros, I can get that smooth effortless floating that comes from a non-bottoming out leaf.

 And with Joysticks, I still cant do anywhere near as good in Robotron, due to the quicker shorter throw activation, and smooth easy feel that come from a rubber grommets  non-edge bashing, gives.

We got to see Lon play on 1500points Mame cabinet.  The thing that struck me was how good he was playing on non-original hardware.  While we were there he didn't once complain or comment about the hardware either.  It just struck me at the time as somewhat funny with all the hand-wringing (myself included) that goes on about controls being accurate. 

 The worlds fastest runner could run with small rocks in his slippery dress shoes... and still probably be do way better than the average joe.   Just as a really good martial artist, may be able to kick just fine with heavy boots on.  Win or not, it does not mean theres disadvantages.

 Whether it be comfort, fatigue, reaction time or performance.

[Xiaou2]

Is this the end of the line for original style leaf buttons? or just a temporary stock problem (yeah, i'll ask the shop too)

 I appreciate your dilemma... as even in reality, I dont have all NOS leafs, which may or may not have some metal fatigue due to their age and use.

 But some things I recommend,  are to grab a used control panel off ebay.  A lot of times you can get them with a good deal of leaf switches, and their buttons + mountings.

 Another thing to immediately do, is check the local craigslist for games being sold, like Asteroids Deluxe, Joust, etc..   and also, if you have newsgroup ability.. search the arcade section, and as to visit any local collectors house.  Get a feel for them 1st hand, in a real machine, thats hopefully been cleaned, repaired, and well maintained.... (and verify under the CP, that all controls are original too)

[1500points]

The UK is a bit sparse when it comes to buying loose control panels, so that is a tough one. Shipping over the pond is expensive. I recently shipped a populated multi-williams panel of Defender proportions to the UK via USPS- shipping was $70US!

Jim, those joust buttons are just pinball style buttons. all this stuff originated in pinball, ie was stocked in the Williams pinball factory. for example on a joust, the leaf is a plain old leaf like you'd use in a pinball machine, screwed right to the wood.  so that means those buttons and leafs can all be sourced directly from pinball sites, you don't need arcadeshop to be in stock. check places like marcos specialties, and anything else that googles.  but still i guess that really isn't so important, and not really worth the $$$.  did you know there are a couple retro arcade events going on around London this year, might be able to play some real Williams machines if you are lucky.

the sweet spot wiggle is this-
1- take your first and second finger and wiggle them real fast. practice hitting your keyboard in a soft quick repetition with the pads or edge of finger just below the fingernail. slight arc in hand.
2- a real williams button is a bit taller than the buttons we've been discussing, but the concept is the same.-- practice the "double flap" while pre-loading the button by pressing it a bit. your fingers will start making tiny movements instead of exagerated back and forth
3- then apply more downward on the button or less until you are flapping when the button is exactly at that moment of contact
4- when found, the sweet spot, you will find the ostrich blazes because you are barely "scratching" those 2 leafs together with miniscule opening and closing of the contact.
5- it is a fine motor finesse thing that you won't fully get for over a month of playing a game like joust every single day. then it's like a bicycle, it'll feel normal and you'll do it without conscious thought.
6- handy for track and field if you aren't a multi-finger masher style player.

[jimmer]

the sweet spot wiggle is this-
1- take your first and second finger and wiggle them real fast. practice hitting your keyboard in a soft quick repetition with the pads or edge of finger just below the fingernail. slight arc in hand.

I hadn't thought of this, yet another technique. Not much use for Defender though unless you can do it with 2nd and 3rd finger.

I've managed to get one leaf button on order now, and a couple of Rollie's.

[1500points]

very common in the US arcades during the 82 era.