Idea for a Multi Williams Plus panel.

[1500points]

Larry DeMar and Eugene Jarvis confirmed the 4 shots in the design.  You'd about have to be a hardware guy to decide how fast the inputs could be processed because Williams games have a stand-alone interface card that feeds back to the processor board.

[RandyT]

Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

Microswitches will never fire faster than leaf switches.  The physics, which I can explain in detail, render it an impossibility.  It would probably behoove Mike to try some decent, real leaf switch based buttons.  "Gold Leaf" buttons are not real leaf switch buttons, so if that is what he is basing his conclusion on, it makes sense he would believe this.  He's incorrect, but it makes sense.

I could also sell him a leaf-based, 2-way stick which would make him think he was playing on an actual Defender machine.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

This is what I was pointing out.  If one is an advanced player, it becomes less important, with the exceptions you mentioned.    The same could be said for pretty much any game, including Asteroids.  But few shoot 1 time when 4 are possible.

[jimmer]

Microswitches will never fire faster than leaf switches.  The physics, which I can explain in detail, render it an impossibility.  It would probably behoove Mike to try some decent, real leaf switch based buttons.  "Gold Leaf" buttons are not real leaf switch buttons, so if that is what he is basing his conclusion on, it makes sense he would believe this.  He's incorrect, but it makes sense.

Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

edit.
Just tested the goldleaf, and it acts like leaf. It's harder to float than the true-leaf because it's silent.

edit2:
Still yet to see a video of someone floating a button in a real game, the top Defender players all smack 10 bales of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- into the keyboard 

[RandyT]

Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

Not specifically.  But I have disassembled many like it.  I have a pile of Chinese Sanwa-style switches here which are built the same way.  I've even studied the mechanics of them and figured out how to modify those which are designed to click, and make it so they don't.

If you have ever disassembled a keyboard which has actual switches in them, you've seen something very similar.  They aren't even close to what an arcade leaf switch is, or can do

[1500points]

How do you take apart a microswitch without destroying it.
Ken House said he makes microswitch joysticks silent for playing on his robotron.
He was going to tell me how to do it, but never got around to it.

I'm extremely curious. the micros I have all seem to be heat pressed plastic?

[jimmer]

Larry DeMar and Eugene Jarvis confirmed the 4 shots in the design.  You'd about have to be a hardware guy to decide how fast the inputs could be processed because Williams games have a stand-alone interface card that feeds back to the processor board.

The fire rate might be limited in the main software, I saw people talking about how many cycles it ignores the reverse button for etc

I could test this by putting a vibrator on the fire button (if I had one), but a software guy might give a definitive answer.

[RandyT]

How do you take apart a microswitch without destroying it.
Ken House said he makes microswitch joysticks silent for playing on his robotron.
He was going to tell me how to do it, but never got around to it.

I'm extremely curious. the micros I have all seem to be heat pressed plastic?

It depends on the switch.  Some are sealed, but most you see nowadays are not.  They are usually just two halves which are press fit together. 

The Sanwa-type switches have little tabs which allow you to separate them.  But once you get into the guts, you have to careful, as the components tend to be under spring tension.  It's easy to lose parts, mainly the spring, if you don't go about it the correct way.

If you send me a photo of the switches in question, I could probably tell you what you need to do.  Or, you could just buy some Versa-Micros from us

[jimmer]

Have you seen a dis-assembled Goldleaf?   I haven't but it's easy to design a leaf spring into a 10mm cube. You may not want to call it a real leaf, but it could have the same operational characteristic as your true-leaf design. (you could even make it tweakable with pliers if the lid came off)

Not specifically.  But I have disassembled many like it.  I have a pile of Chinese Sanwa-style switches here which are built the same way.  I've even studied the mechanics of them and figured out how to modify those which are designed to click, and make it so they don't.

If you have ever disassembled a keyboard which has actual switches in them, you've seen something very similar.  They aren't even close to what an arcade leaf switch is, or can do

If you don't know what's in a goldleaf switch, how do you know that the chinese ones were 'like it'.
Did they have bits like this forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,110252.msg1169103.html#msg1169103 inside?

[1500points]

Ah ha! good timing, i JUST got a package in the mail from paradise arcade. the switch says zippy and it was very easy to open with a knife, unlike the old blue/black ones i have.

How do I alter it to remove the click.
All 3 types I have laying around:

[jimmer]

Great, can you tell me the model number on zippy micro?

edit: ah just realised it's not a lever type. I'm trying to find out which lever model it is that Paradise sells.

[1500points]

non-descript.  says VM-5 5A, 125/250VAC  with a backwards UR

[jimmer]

non-descript.  says VM-5 5A, 125/250VAC  with a backwards UR

I don't suppose you've got the capability to measure the hysteresis to 0.3mm accuracy     Then we could determine if its the model with 1.1mm or 1.6mm 
http://www.zippy.com.tw/Con_product_detail.asp?pcs_name=Micro%20Switches&pcs_type=1&ps_rfnbr=313&ps_code=VM%20Series&ps_name=VM%20Series&pcs_rfnbr=7&lv_rfnbr=1#Operating%20Characteristics

[1500points]

ha, i may be a mad scientist but have no oscilloscope. you could mail me one, though.

[jimmer]

Nevermind, I've taken the lid off mine, and together with 'inspiration' from Randy's versa-switch I can see how to adjust my hysteresis down to almost nothing.

This will make the zippy even better for Defender, and I'll be ready for tweaking when I start on Robotron.

[RandyT]

Ah ha! good timing, i JUST got a package in the mail from paradise arcade. the switch says zippy and it was very easy to open with a knife, unlike the old blue/black ones i have.

How do I alter it to remove the click.
All 3 types I have laying around:

I know you probably won't want to hear this, but the build of that particular switch is not very conducive to this type of modification.   It can be done, but there are easier ones to do it with.  But I'll give you the basics (better get my perfesser hat on..)

The "click" caused by snap switches is the sound it makes when the two contacts are slammed together under spring tension.  The way they operate, due to the position of the spring relative to the center of the arc, is they build tension/resistance all the way up to the apex of the curve.  Once it passes the apex, the reduction in spring tension allows the forces on the actuator to cause the contact point to accelerate rapidly down the other side.  However, since there is still enough tension on the spring to bring it back past the apex, it will return when pressure is removed from the actuator.  This behavior is responsible for the "bump" you feel when pushing the button, and that "fall through" and required cycling distance of the switch contributes to impeded rapid cycling.

The stronger the spring, the more pronounced this condition becomes.

So reducing click requires doing one, or both, of the following;  Reducing the distance between the contact points and/or reducing the spring tension, both of which will limit the momentum it can achieve before the points meet.  Each micro will need a specific way of achieving this, some much simpler than others.

But I'm glad you posted that photo, as it also shows what a difference there can be even in the way leaf switches are offered.  The original in the center looks quite a bit less stiff than than the adapter leaf you show there.  Would I be correct in that assessment?

[Xiaou2]

A lot of people do not realize... theres many more factors in why Leafs are superior.

  1)  Distance to activation

 This is the common one that most people can actually see and understand.  You can adjust the leafs to be close enough that a receipt could just squeeze in between them.

 A microswich cant be adjusted to anywhere near that level... because the Micros use a snap switch.  The snap switches need a certain distance to maintain the ability to actually snap at all.  That minimum distance, is far greater than the leafs minimum distance.

 2)  Distance to DE-Activation

   After you make contact (fire), you now need to release contact to be able to fire again.  With a leaf, theres a trick in which you can use a light touch and sort of vibrate the contacts on and off, called floating.

 With a Micro, even if you have managed to reduced some distance to the activation point... you still have distance on return to travel.   In a typical micro, when the snap switch snaps, it travels like 2 or 3mm.  Even if you reduced that to 1.5mm... its still not going to be as close as a leaf...

 But heres the other BIG factor:

3)  Bottoming Out & Spring Tension

 A traditional Leaf button is much taller than a standard microswitch button.  It has a longer travel.  You start to press in, and near the high end of the middle, is the contact point. The distance might be similar to a traditional micro... however, with a leaf, you can easily stay in this zone with the feather touch float, easily.

  With a micro, you cant feather it.  The contact have to snap.  And right before they snap.. theres very large resistance force you Must overcome.  It may not seem that bad for a single press... but every time you have to fight that large resistance spike... you start to get fatigued.  After less than 20sec of rapidfire, you start to wear down quickly. But not only is fatigue a factor.. but also time.  Every time you run into that monster bump in the road, you lose speed... and thus reaction time goes down.

 Now Bottoming out:

 With a leaf being much taller, and the contacts being somewhere near the middle.. you dont ever have to bottom the thing out.  Meaning, you dont have to push the button to the full bottom.  In fact, you dont even come close to it.   Even with slower games where you single fire, its rare that you might bottom it out, because of the extra distance you have.   Theres 2 big reasons why they did this...

 A)  Collision Fatigue 

    In recent findings, they have come to realize that when you run... its not good to land on your heel.  The reason, is that on collision, it effects your entire body.  Most especially the heel and knee... but also the spine too.  The force is very powerful, with a lot of mass behind it.

  Every time you press a micoswitch button to its end... your fingers take that energy.  Its made worse with micros, because the spring tension make you have to press harder... and so you accelerate your fingers that much faster into the collision point.  While it doesnt seem like that big of a deal... for at least some minutes into play... eventually it takes its toll.  Most noticeably, on rapidfire games where you dont get any chance to stop and take a break.

  What they recommend, with running, is the have the ball of the foot land first.  What happens is that as your ball makes contact, and more of your mass starts to transfer to that point.. your heel starts to pivot downwards, but you can keep it from hitting. The pivot from ball to heel... acts as a spring.  And so theres no heavy full body mass collision.   This lack of collision will greatly reduce any change of body part wear, stress damage, and stress fatigue.

 Recap: A Leaf button, doesnt have to ever be fully depressed, so theres no collision fatigue.  A Microswich button will Always bottom out.  Theres pretty much no way to keep it from happening... due to the acceleration and heavy pressure you must exert.

 B) Speed

 Every time you bottom out a switch, you lose speed.  Yes, theres some rebound energy, which helps.. but, theres still losses.  You come to a very abrupt stop, and then you loosen your finger tension, and allow the button to rise.  For the most part, you may even lose much or all of any rebound forces if you didnt time your release exactly.

 With the Leafs, you dont lose much, if any, speed or momentum.  You bounce with a feather touch... like you were on a trampoline. The spring of the leaf gets stronger as you press further, and even helps you return to the start position, with good rebound energy.   This, along with no collision fatigue, equates to much faster responses, and since you dont fatigue easily.. you can maintain high repeat speed for a very long time.

 Not so, for microswitch style buttons.  Which is why most microswitch games are less intense, and or have autofire built into the game.

[jimmer]

Thanks Xiaou2, but I already posted a link to the thread where you say all the same things 

I agree with most of what you say. The damage thing is worth thinking/worrying about if you are bashing your buttons all day, but your running analogy is poor (and what do you mean recent findings? surely anyone who has ever run knows landing on your heel is bad?). Your efficiency arguments are irrelevant, no-one runs out of energy pressing fire.

In any case, you and Randy are arguing against Strawmen in this thread, I've got 3 buttons on trial, none of which use snap-action switches.

The snap switch that just appeared upthread is for joystick use. I'm pretty sure I can modify my snap-switches to make them fully adequate for defender, robotron, joust and any of the maze games. The one reservation I have is accurate left/right games like Galaxian, which I may have to stick with buttons for.

I look forward to an essay on floating wico sticks.

[1500points]

I can attest personally to the evil nature of microswitch buttons when playing Defender and Joust.

I am a master level jouster from way back. and for an extra challenge i spent some time playing with a microswitch on purpose. it is brutally hard with no fine movement where you can fly the bird with delicate precision.  about impossible to finesse a pterodactyl fight.
finally got tired of the futile challenge and put the rolley back in that machine  (actually the rolley's are super duper nice, they aren't stiff like they look. you can get em in that sweet spot and flutter.)

on defender, i know all the right stuff but have no execution so i'm one of those novices who understands what to do, just can't do it.
but i spent some time with micros and it is physically exhausting to the point of painful on the tendons. no one should probably do that just for health reasons alone (i bet we are all over 40 here, aren't we?)

here is an oddity. I mastered robotron over the past couple years, and for awhile i was playing with those IL? bat sticks from arcadeshop, I think that's where I got em. they had a really light micro in them.  i got to where i could flutter those things so fast in that sweet spot that i could cause the 19-1 board to lockup/dead frozen (not the shot in the corner bug).  therefore, it says to me that indeed a micro might not be as fast as a leaf but you can still blaze them. Ken House is one of the best robotron players around and he likes micros, as many others do.

In reality, another thread maybe, robotron once you really learn it and how to defeat the enemy dynamics through proper player movement and screen placement is not a game of fast firing. a lot of the time you are straight firing.  but that's a master class unto itself. (see the guidebook for more if you fit this category)

[RandyT]

I look forward to an essay on floating wico sticks.

I guess next you'll be saying that a leaf joystick has no benefit over a standard stick with modified microswitches   I think that once you get your panel finished, and then go out and find some of the real machines that those games came from, you'll start to understand things a bit better.  I have the actual vertically restricted, very short leaf-switch based Defender stick in a box around here somewhere.  That thing is built to be very sensitive, and can be made so there is nothing, nada, and zilch for a deadzone.  The stubby length makes it so that the smallest of motions at the ball, will set the ship in this fast paced game, into motion.  It's a very specialized control, and is about as similar to a standard joystick as a proper leaf switch button is to a button with a keyboard switch inside.  Yes, both will work, to some extent, but they are in very different leagues.

I also have an actual Galaxian here.  If you had a leaf switch joystick, as it does, you wouldn't need to resort to buttons for moving the ship, in order to get the gameplay you seem to be after.

So no. No essays on "floating" WICO's here.   Just leaf switch joysticks being used in the original machines to make use of the specific advantages that they, and only they, offer.

Just to be clear, I'm not faulting you or anyone else for the choices they make in controls, as there are many factors involved, including budget, availability, application and expectations.  But when well established facts regarding the benefits of different controls start to get muddled, it's likely to spawn some discussion .

[RandyT]

In reality, another thread maybe, robotron once you really learn it and how to defeat the enemy dynamics through proper player movement and screen placement is not a game of fast firing. a lot of the time you are straight firing.  but that's a master class unto itself. (see the guidebook for more if you fit this category)

I agree.  I'm not a "master player" but it's one of my favorites.  One thing to consider with Robotron is that the original sticks had longer handles than 99% of other games.  Coupling a long handle with a microswitch is going to be a problem.  I'm not sure whether Ken is using a long handled WICO with the microswitches, and has become accustomed to it, or whether they are paired with a shorter one, but it does make a difference.  Leaf switches can be tuned to make the long handled variety more sensitive.

Also, while the adapted leafs may work for you, the originals didn't have the resistance that those obviously have, based on the construction.  If I get around to it, I'll post a photo of the originals.  But in a nutshell, the top blade is very thin, and long, with no plastic to press along with it.  To make pressing them even easier, the button plunger rests on a section of the leaf which is about 1/2" past the actual contacts.  So what you are saying about fatigue with Defender, is absolutely correct.  It's also very obvious that they understood this clearly, and selected switches which would help to mitigate the issue.  Tired players don't keep dropping quarters in the slots

*edit*

Here's a chunk out of a photo from an amazingly authentic reproduction, showing the actual Defender leaf switches.

[Xiaou2]

I agree with most of what you say. The damage thing is worth thinking/worrying about if you are bashing your buttons all day, but your running analogy is poor (and what do you mean recent findings? surely anyone who has ever run knows landing on your heel is bad?). Your efficiency arguments are irrelevant, no-one runs out of energy pressing fire.

 The argument wasnt about Damaging your fingers, tendons..etc.   That would only be an issue, if your job were to non-stop rapid button presses.

 The argument was about speed and fatigue.   As member '1500points' has pointed out, (snicker)   trying to play a rapidfire game results in major fatigue.   If you use a leaf button, that fatigue level goes down to almost nothing.  And to be clear, fatigue with micros on rapidfire games can set in as quickly as 30 seconds.  Where as the same player, could play for an hour, and still not be fatigued with leafs.

 As for the ball - heel stuff... Id only heard about it within maybe the last 10yrs, on a documentary featuring the Tarahumara tribe, (I believe)  where they run barefoot for like two days, going 200miles, without pause.  They filmed the runners on a treadmill, and made the heel realization.   The resultant research, has been slow to spread... as a lot of people still are clinging to the 'dont run, it will mess your knees up', research that predated it.  And when looking for the tribe name, found an article from 2010, talking about recent discoveries to do with barefoot running.   So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

 And Randy has some very valid points.

 For example, Defenders 2 way leaf stick, is very short. The shorter the throw, the quicker the reaction times.  Longer handled sticks, require more travel before activation.  This can be the death of you, esp. on games like defender.

 And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome. It also has a circular outside path, which is needed for robotron.. to roll effortlessly from one direction to the next. Some sticks have a square path, and you would get stuck in the corners. (delay from clashing into a dead stop, and then changing direction)   And then of course, its got less distance to activation than many micro based sticks. (and thats before you adjust the leafs)

 Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true... however, you would still have to deal with the clicky heavy tensioned micros, that also have that slamming collision impact.   While the collision of a joystick isnt that fatiguing, its still slightly discomforting.  You may not consciously notice it... but once you play a game with real wicos, its like a slap in the face.  Just smooth silky movement, without that jarring slamming.
Admittedly, they are a little stiff feeling.. but that somehow doesnt matter as much as the slam stuff does...  and the other benefits, such as lightning fast response times.

 While it may be true that masters can play Robotron with micros (id be curious to know what stick... cause I cant play it with comps, nor supers).. the average joe may not be up to the robotic task of strategies needed.  Instead, we rely on being able to do on-the-fly action... and as such, need every millisecond worth of advantage.  That games projectile speeds, and ferocity, pretty much require it.  Again, the smooth feel also complements it as well.

 I can honestly say, that I used to hate leaf buttons and sticks. Even, and especially when I managed an arcade.  They needed adjustments and cleaning often.  And, I really didnt know about the floating stuff either.   It wasnt till near the end of my arcade days, that I made some realizations.  I replaced the Galaga with Micros, and quickly found out, that Id made a big mistake.  And later, found a real Defender, and Robotron to play.. and again, got schooled.
Newer does not necessarily mean better.  In fact, these days, quality has slipped drastically.

[Xiaou2]

Spriggsy replied about the firing subject which should lay that one to rest since he is one of the extreme masters on the planet-
------------------
Those defender videos were shot when i was using my ASCII playstation stick, not a keyboard. The stick had microswitches, which means you can actually fire faster than leafs if you have the dexterity to do so

However a new homemade panel feels more authentic (accurate button layout and goldleafs). I cannot fire or reverse as quickly on my new controller however it is more authentic, so i am starting to prefer it.

The only benefit to quick fire is if a pack of swarmers is heading quickly toward you, or you have mutants up your ass and you need to quickly reverse and pick off as many as possible. The new controller is forcing me to play with more control than speed, which is taking time to get used to but it will be better in the long run.

That is Mike’s skill : it’s all about control and firing accurately, rather than hit and hope.

 This is misleading.

  Ive watched a video review of the AscII stick... and the only thing that had micros in it was the joystick.  The buttons, were standard press pad style buttons.  You know, the kind that are in a ps2 handheld controller.

 Even the latter ASCII sticks, which offer optical joysticks, have standard buttons.

 It was very rare to see anyone put out a full set of buttons on any controller, mostly cause of the expense.  As people have made control realizations, they may have came out with all-micro based controllers.  However, from the AscII links Id seen, I believe he wasnt using full micros for buttons.  Just short throw pad based buttons.

[jimmer]

I guess next you'll be saying that a leaf joystick has no benefit over a standard stick with modified microswitches   I think that once you get your panel finished, and then go out and find some of the real machines that those games came from, you'll start to understand things a bit better.  I have the actual vertically restricted, very short leaf-switch based Defender stick in a box around here somewhere.  That thing is built to be very sensitive, and can be made so there is nothing, nada, and zilch for a deadzone.  The stubby length makes it so that the smallest of motions at the ball, will set the ship in this fast paced game, into motion.  It's a very specialized control, and is about as similar to a standard joystick as a proper leaf switch button is to a button with a keyboard switch inside.  Yes, both will work, to some extent, but they are in very different leagues.

Well at least if I said that you wouldn't need to invent strawmen to argue against 

I'm not that interested in the fact that a Defender stick could be set with no gap. I am interested to know what you find is the best setting for engagement/disengagement.

I also have an actual Galaxian here.  If you had a leaf switch joystick, as it does, you wouldn't need to resort to buttons for moving the ship, in order to get the gameplay you seem to be after.

I believe that could be true, that's why I brought it up.

Just to be clear, I'm not faulting you or anyone else for the choices they make in controls, as there are many factors involved, including budget, availability, application and expectations.  But when well established facts regarding the benefits of different controls start to get muddled, it's likely to spawn some discussion .

I am faulting my choice. That why I'm making posts about converting my joystick to leaf switches and modifying micro-switches.

[jimmer]

So... while it may be obvious that landing on the heel isnt great... the science is / was still figuring out all the details.   Without looking yet, I have a feeling your a younger person.  Young people seem to think that anything thats 2yrs old is ancient.  When you get older, you will understand the relative reality of time much better.   China has a recorded history that goes back over 2000 yrs... and USA, only a few hundred. Tv, was made in 1911. Its a modern invention... but only a mere blip in this billions 4.5 billion year old planet.

I'm sure Ma Jun knew that running on the balls of your feet was damaging back in 230AD.

[jimmer]

And Leafs are not the only reason why a true Wico 8 way will beat out modern joysticks for certain games. One factor, is the rubber centering grommet.  It allows a perfectly balanced pivot point, and there is no major spring bump tension to overcome.

Many of the popular sticks, like the Comps, (as far as I could tell last I looked) use a spring systems which alters the position of the pivot point.  The shaft sort of slides a little to one side. This causes even more distance to travel before activation... and throws off the feel of stick.  The newer japanese sticks use a ball pivot, which is much more true...

Zero slop about centre is obviously ideal. My zippy short stick has about +/-1mm free play (measured at the top of the ball).

I haven't reached a conclusion yet on whether that, i itself, is a real life detriment.
Currently I have 1mm free play+1mm travel+2mm disengage = +/- 4mm side to side engagement. This is not adequate for Galaxian.
I think I can tune the zippy down to 1mm free play+0.5mm travel+1mm disengage = +/- 2.5mm


If I was designing a leaf joystick (or button) it would have screw adjustment, not rely on pliers for adjustment.

[1500points]

Few things, essay in nature-

The reason defender or Robotron control panel feels perfect is because Jarvis was an avid game player, they got it right through intuitive observation and had decades of insights from the pinball side of things about meeting the needs of the coin-op consumer (pinball pioneer Steve Kordek was a “family” friend and mentor to both).  DeMar states they had to make Robotron harder after switching from Atari 2600 sticks to real wico leafs. Defender layout was a desire to accommodate Asteroids players who were a top coin-op customer at the time of design. The added height of a robo stick was a product of not wanting people to scrape knuckles.
If you don’t know of Jarvis this is a good start- http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-17/entertainment/ct-ent-eugene-jarvis-20121217_1_arcade-game-video-game-game-designers

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the brilliance of putting robo sticks 10 inches apart, it just feels right for the geometry of most people’s shoulder width.  Put in a bunch of time on a real cab and you’ll see.

Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the importance of screen size.  19 inch 4-3 LCD does better for Robotron due to visual discrimination and reaction times.  A 17 inch 4-3 LCD does better for defender due to peripheral vision and radar observation.

another thing that hasn't been mentioned is angle of panel surface to avoid wrist discomfort for the average height player. I personally find a Joust cab to have the perfect screen angle/position and panel angle.

Zippyy’s can play Robotron as well as anything if you take restrictor completely off. You’ll grind actuator a bit, but as you get better you won’t need to overcompensate and grind the stick against circle.  But once again, a learning player will do better on real wico’s a seasoned player won’t care.  I personally got NOS 3.5inch wico leaf sticks and routed into the height I liked, but I like the silence and the ability to “feel” the blade pressure which becomes hyper-acute when your brain goes into the Zone/trance state. It’s bizarre feeling that I personally find satisfying- tactile oddity maybe.

Per a big debate on klov, the IL eurostick is supposed to be the king but I’ve never actually touched one, assume it has light micros and circular restriction (which was pointed out as a key element above).  the sticks I had looked the same style and colors. I gave them away when I realized I preferred the balltop over bats, once I owned a real robo cab and put in a lot of time on it.   http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/58-il-eurostick-joystick

one last thing!  Joust extreme master, Lon McDonald, broke the mame marathon WR on my cab (homemade joust style tabletop cab with extension for upright) the buttons were using rolley leaf conversions and the wico had no horizontal restriction, and he was playing the tougher mame 106 version of joust. he is insanely talented. http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/home/starworlds/joust30thbirthday/

[jimmer]

I personally got NOS 3.5inch wico leaf sticks and...

New old stock?   when did they stop being made?


How is the micro-switch tweaking coming on? Got any measurements from the tweaked joystick?  ( I know you were mainly asking about silencing, but I'm sure you are interested in the other factors)

[1500points]

i'm just curious about the microswitch mechanics now that one is open for viewing. i'll probably mangle 1 or 2 to experiment with the physics. gotta get in the garage storage and pull out a few other styles of micros and mangle them open to play.

wico's are long gone. on klov you can still get em from hobby folks who deal in them. the wico micros are real common and some like them, i built a berzerk for someone once using one. didn't seem anything special.

i have some wico 360 opticals that have a spring. the opticals are cool, the spring is horrible. i heard putting that optical plate on a rubber grommet wico is sweet, though. never tried it.

ebay has NOS wicos frequently but you'll pay well for them. probably 50 a stick.

[jimmer]

i'm just curious about the microswitch mechanics now that one is open for viewing. i'll probably mangle 1 or 2 to experiment with the physics. gotta get in the garage storage and pull out a few other styles of micros and mangle them open to play.

I just modded a switch, mine only has one contact so I bent that and then drilled a 2.5mm hole and inserted a M3 screw through the top to adjust the other side.

Nub travel and noise greatly reduced, so it works. But I also have this slightly uneasy feeling because I've basically undone the whole point of this switch and now have a very poor kinematic system. The nub travel is greater than the contact travel 

[Xiaou2]

Zero slop about centre is obviously ideal. My zippy short stick has about +/-1mm free play (measured at the top of the ball).

 Thats more of an issue if your talking about analog sticks.  One thing you dont want, is for a stick or button to be so accurate, as to accidentally go off from tiny amount of touch pressure.  Thats why a leaf button doesnt have the activation point until just above the middle of travel.  Once you get to that spot however, you can easily keep it there with ease. (which really cant be done well with even the craziest modded micros)

 However, the Feel of a perfectly centered stick is much nicer on the brain.  Which is one reason why the grommets really shine.  They dont feel loosey goosey.

If I was designing a leaf joystick (or button) it would have screw adjustment, not rely on pliers for adjustment.

 But if you did that, you would create a hard stop. A collision point.  And that would make them feel and respond much worse.   The leaf buttons are designed in a way, that they almost feel bottomless.  Typical presses dont seem to bottom them out.. its only if you consciously try really hard to do so.. that you can make them bottom out.  As a result, your games feel much more relaxed and buttery smooth.   As 1500pts  mentioned, he had a certain feeling about them... but he didnt know what or why.  Well, thats one of the biggest reasons.  Zero clashing / bottoming out.

 The leaf sticks are pretty much the same.  The leafs engage fairly quickly, and so no need to go to the utmost edges.  But if you do, the grommet + the leafs springs, slow the outside edge speed and absorb much of the impact forces.  Its more gushy... like the difference between slamming your fist into a soccer ball, rather than a hardwood floor.

[1500points]

getting this detailed would probably be a fair case for anyone to call us...nerds. 

here is one more leaf spring thing to think about Jim, when you get some leafs...which you will...you are too curious not too. 

the proper adjustment of a leaf in the Electro mechanical pinball world (where this all started) causes a proper brushing of the contacts which is a self-cleaning mechanism, too.   if you put a stop in their you are affecting the slide action as they get closer.  obviously arcade controls don't get nearly as dirty as a flipper with juice running through it causing sparks.

[jimmer]

But if you did that, you would create a hard stop. A collision point. 

The screw adjuster would obviously not be under the contact point.

[jimmer]

here is one more leaf spring thing to think about Jim, when you get some leafs...which you will...you are too curious not too. 

I've already got True-leafs, Randy is here becasue I said:

I bought 3 different recommended buttons (Sanwa, Goldleaf, CLASSX trueleaf). And the result so far is that I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them for defender fire button. Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

On a cost & convenience basis for me in the UK, I would go with Goldleafs(concave) or Sanwa(convex) if starting again.

Unless you mean original style Leafs, in which case yes I probably will. If I had spotted them being sold from Europe like this http://www.arcadeshop.de/index.php?cPath=79_84 I may have paused at the price but still probably bought some.

I notice the leafs are marked as dis-continued.

[Xiaou2]

The screw adjuster would obviously not be under the contact point.

  Where would you put them then?

 I think you have to completely redesign the leaf assembly to do it... and the result probably wouldnt fit in standard leaf buttons and leaf sticks.

 Anyways, I think you underestimate the task a little.

[RandyT]

Whether my opinion will change when I get better at Joust we will see (the way my panel is I can use any of the 3 types for flapping so I can continue to evaluate them) 

It was this, and only this statement which got me into the discussion.  I do believe you will eventually come around to real leaf switches for the types of games you are interested in playing, as these titles, more than many others, benefit greatly from the types of controls selected for use by the manufacturer of the games.  If not, then that is your prerogative, but it would place you in a small minority.

One thing I find curious is the stance you have taken that firing speed is unimportant, yet have gone to several lengths in order to measure how fast one can fire with each button.  Then when you say that all are equal based on your measurements, and I demonstrate how they are not, using the same software you wrote and based your conclusion upon, suddenly it's not important.  So you seem to be bouncing around a bit with what your requirements are.   You also seem to be attempting to discredit a fairly well known fact that leaf switches are the standard upon which lesser approaches are judged, particularly with the titles in question.

So the best way forward would probably be to put your calipers away for a bit, get your panel, cabinet, etc. finished, and start playing the games.  After putting a dozen hours in on the titles you are most interested in, using each of the types you have in your possession, and developing a certain level of proficiency with both game and control, then you will know which type are best suited for you.  If you find that one is better than the other, but it happens to be outside of your budgetary, build, convenience, etc. requirements, then understand that you are making a concession and it should be recognized for what it is.  These type of concessions are just part of what it is to build arcade panels in this day in age, when so many of the original controls are no longer being produced, and/or when a panel is intended to be multi-purpose.

Unless you mean original style Leafs....I notice the leafs are marked as dis-continued.

And this type of situation is the very reason we put such a large investment into the "from the ground up" design you were able to purchase from us.  I did not wish to see what is arguably the best switch option for arcade pushbuttons sink into oblivion, and no longer be available to this community, or be relegated to possession by hoarders of the originals who command outrageous prices for what little remains.  Case in point: before GGG made the huge investments in producing TRON and Satan's Hollow handles, these were being sold for upwards of $200 each.  And the same negative situation is becoming reality with the WICO leaf joysticks.  Today, not only is this no longer true with the aforementioned handles, but the reproductions are considered by most to be superior, and they can be readily purchased for an eighth of that price.

When people forget what was, and accept mediocrity as tantamount to par, then much is lost.  And those savvy enough to know the difference, end up paying dearly.  My involvement in discussions like this one is simply to defend the facts when they become disputed, and prevent as much of that downward slide as possible.

[jimmer]

One thing I find curious is the stance you have taken that firing speed is unimportant, yet have gone to several lengths in order to measure how fast one can fire with each button.  Then when you say that all are equal based on your measurements, and I demonstrate how they are not, using the same software you wrote and based your conclusion upon, suddenly it's not important.  So you seem to be bouncing around a bit with what your requirements are.   You also seem to be attempting to discredit a fairly well known fact that leaf switches are the standard upon which lesser approaches are judged, particularly with the titles in question.

Almost everything I have written is about firing in Defender.
You stated:

For Defender and Joust, a real leaf switch, adjusted to a "hair trigger" will give you much better control with those games.  This is especially true for Defender, where you need to lay down a wall of fire.  The only reasonable way to do this is to hold the button down to the point where it just fires, and "vibrate" it.  Try it and you'll see what I am talking about

My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.

[RandyT]

My stance is that I've yet to see evidence that super-rapid firing is important for Defender. My measurements seem to show that the best players do not use super-rapid firing. They don't appear to fire any faster than 120ms which happens to be the speed I got with all 3 buttons.

I have acknowledged that a super-rapid burst would be good for some instances. And I would dearly love to see a video of the fabled floating technique being used on Defender. You or Xiaou feel free to make one.

Quite what you were doing with your button to get the super-fast time we don't know, but I think we established you weren't pressing up and down on a button mounted in a control panel.

So what do you do in those instances where you need it and cannot provide it?  The answer is, you start on your next life, should you still happen to have one in reserve.

In at least one of those videos, "the best player" is using an ASCII stick.  So why aren't you using one of those?  I'm sure they are much less expensive, and certainly less trouble to acquire.  The one statement which would trouble me the most, were it me in your position, is where that player is mistakenly referring to his non-leaf switch buttons as leafs, and going further to say that he cannot fire as fast with those as he can with the ASCII stick.  In making such a statement, he is indicating a limitation is being imposed upon his play in specifically the areas which you don't find much importance in, with the very buttons you claim offer the same performance as real leaf switch buttons.  With these things considered, the conclusions you seem to be holding dear, simply don't add up.

But I can answer the ASCII stick question, and it's a simple one.  You aren't him.  In fact, I'm not him, and neither quite probably is anyone reading this thread.  He is a 1%er.  For the rest of us mere mortals in the 99% group, we will need at least the advantage afforded to the players by the original machine in order to have a fighting chance.

As for the "floating" of switches, those who play with actual leaf switches may not even be aware it's happening.  1500points called it "the sweet spot", and it's essentially the point at which one can stream button events to the system at a rate near to that of which it can accept them.  In a game like Joust, this can be very advantageous to get above a rapidly approaching/ascending opponent.  In Defender, it reduces the accuracy required to hit swarmers and mutants.  It's one of those things experienced players don't need....until they need it.  And you can trust me when I say those players aren't just "pressing up and down".  Observing the player, and not just the screen, yields much better information.

Also, if you could, please try to refrain from quoting millisecond time frames with regard to the videos.  There is no accurate way for a human to view any activity and state, with the level of certainty you seem to have, the intervals being observed at that resolution.  There are moments in those videos where the shots are overlaid, or on adjacent pixels.  One really can't possibly know the rate in those instances from casual observation, and certainly not from a compressed video.

[jimmer]

I have not claimed Goldleafs are better than or even as good as leafs.

You are maikng claims about leafs and I am asking for evidence.
It's not even that I don't believe you and Xiaou, I do.     I JUST WANT TO SEE IT.

As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.


As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.

[RandyT]

As a vendor these things, I'm a surprised you don't have a video on your website showing how fast people can fire with your buttons, but that's your choice.

Heh, as I just stated, I am not a 1%er.  Should I try to find one in today's world and hire him for a promotional video?  But I'd be happy to send Mike a free button to hear his thoughts (plus I feel a little bad for him.)

Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand

As to the videos, if I can see bullet 1 just emerging from the ship in frame1 and bullet 4 just emerging in frame 11 and the frame rate is 33ms, then thats as near to 330ms as we need to worry about.

Look into how video compression works.  It's an exercise in futility to try to calculate things this way.  Not that it's even relevant what the "pros" with ASCII sticks do, based on everything that has been stated thus far.

[jimmer]

Besides, I did show you what is possible, and that with the software you wrote and have been using for comparisons.  Unless you think I hooked up a frequency generator to an encoder just to pull your chain, I'm not sure what else you need.  But I will challenge you for a change.  Let's see if you can duplicate, or better, the 6 presses with the average 36ms interval with any sort of regularity.  And just so we are comparing objectively, please feel free to do it while holding the button in your hand

I've no interest in holding the button in my hand and trying to get a 'good score' on my test software. For what it's worth (which is ZERO) I can do a 4burst in 80ms by rubbing 4 fingers across a CLASSX.

If you yourself are not capable of floating your own switch at high speed, and you don't know anyone who is, perhaps you should tone down your statements about what's possible with it.