New pin: Lethal Weapon 3 (Update: FIXED)

[shardian]

I called up the guy I got my last 3 game haul from, and bugged him about the dead LW3 pin he had in his house. He gave me the whole story again about how he wanted to some day fix it, blah blah blah. Then, he finally accepts reality and tells me I can buy it for cheap! I swing by and look at it after talking with him. Game looks great, but he says it doesn't work. He has a brand new MPU still in its shipping box that comes along with it. He also has paperwork and spare parts at one of his laundry locations he will get me later.

Anyways, I go to verify his price, and he knocks another hundo off. How sweet! I guess I inadvertently said it in a way he interpreted as negotiating...or his wife really wanted it out of there.

Got it home and started checking stuff, checking manual, etc. Game booted, but the outhole kept kicking and the DMD stayed fully lit. MPU LED's were functioning properly, so I knew the existing board was bad. No clue why he bought the new one then, so I already felt good. I manually ejected the balls, and find there is one too many balls in the trowl. Turn the game back on, and it works other than the DMD. WOOT! While blindly playing a few games, I start to notice the DMD blinking when I nudge the game. No...surely that isn't the problem. The guy ASSURED me a board was messed up! I pull the dmd/speaker shelf and check connectors. One connector fell off, so I put it back in place and fired her back up. Success! There is one single always lit column of pixels still, but I assume that is a connector issue still.

As you can see, the cabinet has some wear. The metal pieces need painted. The playfield has no wear at all. A simple cleaning will have it mint. There is one broken plastic. The left kickout hole, and the right slingshot don't work. Kickout is just super weak, sling does nothing. Haven't run tests yet. The skill shot targets need replaced too I suppose. Other than that, the game works perfectly. Flippers and all other coils are strong.

I can't believe I got this game working so easily. I believed the guy when he said it had issues. He even bought a brand new MPU... just goes to show a little troubleshooting goes a long way when buying $200 parts!

Oh, and one more thing: playing this pin with the glass off causes hearing loss! I need to get the kickout coil fixed quick so I can put the glass back on.

[pinballwizard79]

I hate stories like this.

Seems like I can buy a restored Treasure Cove machine & 2 year later it needs a board....meanwhile you buy a machine for nearly nothing, then get a free board with it & all because the owner couldnt find the power switch.

---fudgesicle--- my life.

On another note congrats, I like DE machines...

[njay]

so how do you like your machine?

im saving for a Lethal weapon 3 it costs around 650 euros fully working here
not to much is say

[shardian]

I really like it so far. I has about everything I could ask for in a DMD pin. It even has 2 sets of drop targets! Game plays very fast, but it is true the DMD animations are a little on the long side.


I fixed the slingshot - just a broken off wire. One of the wires was semi-cold soldered on the kickout hole, but that wasn't the problem. The coil is just too weak to kick the ball out. I'll go ahead and order a new coil I suppose.

[Jeff AMN]

I really like it so far. I has about everything I could ask for in a DMD pin. It even has 2 sets of drop targets! Game plays very fast, but it is true the DMD animations are a little on the long side.


I fixed the slingshot - just a broken off wire. One of the wires was semi-cold soldered on the kickout hole, but that wasn't the problem. The coil is just too weak to kick the ball out. I'll go ahead and order a new coil I suppose.

Coils very rarely go bad. Before a new coil, I'd try replacing the coil sleeve and checking to see that everything is aligned and moving freely. I have only once had to replace a coil in some odd 30-40 pins.

[shardian]

Coil is a 5005, red label on that kickout. I resolder both connections. Verified the linkage works fine, with very little effort. I'm baffled. I traced the power wires, and didn't find anything odd yet. I did find another bulb with a busted off solder joint though.

Like I said, it just barely nudges the ball when it is time to kick out.

[shardian]

Okay, definitely mechanical...but I don't know how/why. I replaced the sleeve, but the one I pulled was perfectly fine. There are no lubricants to speak of to gunk it up. The end of the plunger felt like it had some rough edges, so I sanded it down and then polished it with 2000 grit. It feels great when I just put the plunger in/out with the assembly disconnected.

Put it all together, and it only moves about 1/8". If it put my finger on the linkage just a bit to get it past that point, the coil will fire. Any more ideas? I can't think of anything else to do now.

[shardian]

Sounds to me like you've got a sloppy part in that linkage.  I'd see about replacing it.

Other thing you can do is see if the link can be flipped over and used the other direction.

Grr.... I'll go ahead and tear out the entire assembly this evening and give it a thorough once over.

regarding pre-drivers. Is it possible that one of the pre-drivers is bad, and I'm only getting a fraction of the voltage necessary. I'm not an expert on transistors, but is it even a remote possibility that this could be the issue?

Could I simply disconnect the signal side of the bad assembly, and jumper over to another kickout during test mode?

[shardian]

Stop over complicating this.

I just want to make sure I have all possibilities ready to test in my limited tinker time. I telling you that there is absolutely nothing different about this saucer than the other 2 in the game. If anything, it is in better shape than the others.

Is it really complicating things to bridge a signal wire to make another coil fire via the same transistors? I just want to make sure it is something I can do safely.

[shardian]

If the game is attempting to fire the coil when it should be, you do not have a logic problem. 

Someone mentioned it, and I did see in my brief overview of the pinrepair document that some coils can have 1-2 pre-drivers. Like I said, I have no clue how exactly this works yet. For all I know, the main transistor could be bad and the pre-driver is sending a ridiculously weak signal to the coil - but a signal nonetheless.

Like I said before, is this even a remote possibility? Even when I pushed it past that 1/8" mark, it seemed on the weak side.

[shardian]

I pulled the entire assembly, cleaned it, checked for problems, etc. Sanded the end a little more, so absolutely no mushrooming to speak of. The whole mechanism moves cleanly and perfectly. It acts exactly the same still! I've been reading about the transistor logic of this machine, and the L/R relay could be a remote possibility as a problem.

I also tested the diode, and got odd results. Unfortunately, I don't have any 4004 diodes - just 4001,4002,4007's.

[shardian]

You didn't try swapping parts, did you?

 

Unless a single spec of dust can hold back a high powered coil, this simply cannot be a mechanical issue. I'll be testing voltage, transistors, and the L/R relay this evening. And hey, if I get proved wrong I will happily bow to down to you as master.

[shardian]

Ahh, I see what you are saying about the plunger now. Duh! okay then, I will compare assemblies with the other kickout before I do anything else. I can almost guarantee it is the right plunger though, because the link is the correct blue. It all appears to be original.

There are no parts missing.

[shardian]

$1 says you've got the wrong plunger in that coil. 

I'll be happy to supply you with my paypal address, or would you prefer to send cash? 

Assembly tests fine by directly grounding the coil, and by directly grounding the transistor. Hence, the problem lies in logic. I pulled out the board and now see why people don't like Data East. These boards cook themselves!! The 7408 chip associated with this coil has been previously replaced...badly. It is now socketed, but almost all of the solder pads on the solder side of board are gone! I'd almost bet the problem lies with a crappy connection on the associated pin.
I noticed solder pads missing on several other places on the board. Damn...some people need to stay the hell away from a soldering iron...

After looking it over, I figured I'd go ahead and put in that new board I have. I got as far as putting on 2 connectors and the batteries before I looked at the roms installed  - Robocop. Uh Oh... Checked reference materials, and then checked the board - revision 2. Son of a...

So now I am kind of stuck. I don't think my soldering skills are good enough to work with missing pads. I need to do some practice and research on repair methods in this case.

[shardian]

The problem lies in the logic even though the mech works fine after you actuate it 1/8"?

New one to me.  I'll give you your dollar when you come visit the Alamo.

Like I said, it was really weak. It will pull the plunger down, but half-heartedly. If I lightly held it, it would not go.

[shardian]

It still is baffling that the coil even tries to fire. I get equal voltage (43 volts approx.) at each lug. Anyone care to take a technical stab at what is going on?

[shardian]

If the game is attempting to fire the coil when it should be, you do not have a logic problem. 

Someone mentioned it, and I did see in my brief overview of the pinrepair document that some coils can have 1-2 pre-drivers. Like I said, I have no clue how exactly this works yet. For all I know, the main transistor could be bad and the pre-driver is sending a ridiculously weak signal to the coil - but a signal nonetheless.

Like I said before, is this even a remote possibility? Even when I pushed it past that 1/8" mark, it seemed on the weak side.

No, not really.  You've probably got the wrong plunger.

The coil firing at this point was a red herring. It somehow had enough juice to pull the plunger down once i gave it more to bite on. It was enough to pull it all the way down, and lightly slap the stop. I could stop it by holding it with my finger.

Obviously it is a possibility, because it is happening. I would be very curious to know how/why this is happening. If the 7408 has bad connections, it shouldn't do anything I would think. How does it send a signal to a fully powered coil, but only very weak. 

[shardian]

Put the glass on last night, and now the pin doesn't work. It worked fine before I put the translite and glass back on...

To top that off, the monitor in my Paperboy crapped out about the same time.

[shardian]

According LED status, I now have a bad game EPROM...or two. Pinrepair guide also goes as far to say that this is very rare. What the.....

I have older rom chips, but now I am hesitant to install them. Anyone here burn EPROMS? I supposed I should just send off all of my rom sets for this and get them burned to the newest update. That way I have several good sets.

[shardian]

They are 2.08 roms. I still have the older ones too.

I also just collected a box of new parts/bulbs from the guy I got the game from. Very cool.

[shardian]

I hope you at least took that guy to dinner and a movie....

Oh, and I also got his copy of the pinrepair guide. Notes and all...so now I know for sure who did the beautiful soldering work that lead to the dead kickout.

[shardian]

Lots more reading, lots more pondering, lots more pacing, etc. I was looking at an MPU schematic today, and noticed that the chunk of components below the batteries was the 'blanking' section. I had noticed light corrosion on some CPU pins the other day, so I decided to inspect closer. Odd that the pinrepair guide didn't list this as a potential problem for the blanking LED staying off...

I pulled out the board, and started peaking around. The acid damage was worse than I thought. I cleaned up the components, then pulled the CPU. more damage in the socket. I took off the socket, cleaned up some more acid, and installed new socket strips. Cleaned up the CPU chip, and put her all back together. Oh, and I scoped the board out again for cold solder and blown pads.

I looked closer at the blown pads, and deemed most of them 'okay'. Any with solder side traces appear to have continuity. Those with parts side traces seem okay too. I didn't do too much thinking on this, because I wanted to install the board.

Fired her up, and it works again. The flippers also now properly lock out during fight video mode after reflowing the relay connections. Unfortunately, the left saucer kickout is still non-functioning.

Eh, at least the game works again!

[shardian]

Dammit!

I was trying to figure out a way to block off the left saucer, and when I went to turn the game back on, it was dead again. I went to pull the CPU again, and I slipped and it fell down into the cabinet. I fetched it out, and 2 of the acid damaged legs had broken off. Oh well, needed a new one anyways. As I slid the playfield back, it frikking fell off the tracks. Hopefully I didn't break anything.

Can things go any worse???

PS. Anyone have a spare 6802 processor they can send my way?

[shardian]

Man...I am about done screwing with this. I started poking/prodding any and all connections on all boards. I made sure everything was good and secure, etc. reseated chips again for good measure, which I hate doing (more later). I took the CPU chip from the spare board I had, so it is complete again. After tinkering with all the connectors, the PIA LED came on and stayed on. That is a first. I can turn it off, tinker with all the connectors again, then the next time the PIA goes off and blanking never comes on. Then I can poke/prod AGAIN, and the game tries to boot to the "Open Coin Door" message. Opening coin door does nothing again, then after a while it (the blanking LED and the game) dies.

Obviously there is more to this. I think the PSU might have some issue.

Last thing. I was getting frustrated, and decided to reseat the game EPROM again, Started to pull it out, then one side gave alot quicker than the other...I broke a mother effing leg off!!!!!

I HATE this crap!!!

[njay]

sweet i payed 50 euros down payment for my lethal weapon 3 and will be picking it up next saturdag

so if you need any pics from a fully working pinball let me know i will share !!

[shardian]

I sent the board off for proper repair. I'll report back in a week or so. I insured it for the replacement cost of a rottendog new CPU, so fingers crossed USPS busts it all to hell! 

[shardian]

This pin has been in decommission for a while now. The 'repair' I sent off for ended up being a disaster. The dude all the sudden had to travel all over the globe for work, and went 'off the grid' for over a month. I finally sent a 'not pleasant' email, and got my board sent back. From emails he sent before going dark, the board was supposed to be booting just fine, and he was just needing to fix the coil issue. Needless to say, I got it back in worse condition than it was sent off in. No, it does not work. The machine does go absolutely ape ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- when I turn it on though.  Lesson kiddies: If someone tells you they have worked professionally in board work, don't just take their word for it. There is professional looking rework on that board, but it was done by my hands.

Needless to say, I put in an order at GPE for all the parts I need + extras to get the board working again. Hopefully replacing the 5D RAM and socket will get it back to booting. I'm going to replace the crappy socket repair the guy did on the 5C game ROM, because the machine pin socket strips he used SUCK. It took me 20 minutes to massage a game rom into the socket - and that is after I tried unsucessfully to install 2 other game roms that didn't have all perfectly straight legs. Unfortunately, it looks like some solder pads took some damage during that repair. I might just have to leave it alone. I will still have to deal with the coil that is firing too weak. The main TIP102, the pre-driver, AND the 7408 chip for that coil appear to have ALL of the solder pads blown off. I've convinced myself that the fact the coil meekly attempts to fire means that the drivers and 7408 work, but that I need to rework all of the jumper repairs. I ordered enough parts to replace everything in the chain if need be. This is going to be interesting!

[shardian]

What was the tech's name?

Doesn't really matter. He's a KLOV member, and was looking to expand into other manufacturers. Not one of the well known repair techs if that is what I led you to believe. I was actually in talks with Chris Munson, but went with this other guy because he seemed like a likable fellow, and I had done some business with him already. Figured I'd help him develop a name for himself in the board repair biz.

[ChadTower]

Do the single strip sockets really suck or are you just having trouble getting chips in and out?  I use single strips and it is much harder to remove/insert chips than the standard sockets.  They supposedly have a far lower failure rate, though.

I have had very few successes getting boards sent out for repair too.  It sucks.

[shardian]

I need to take a pic of them. I've used machine pin socket strips, and have had excellent results. The strips he used though...they aren't the same. The ones I use have a kind of 'cup' shape at the top that guides the pins into the holes. The ones he used have like an inverted cup that keeps the pin AWAY from the super tiny hole. I've never seen sockets like these, and I have to assume for good reason.

[ChadTower]

Then not these, I assume...

[shardian]

can you get a zoomed in pic of the actual pin socket?

[ChadTower]

I tried on the original that isn't web optimized but it doesn't give us what you want.  I can tell you that the socket is concave but is not smooth.  It has angles in it that a leg can catch on if you're not careful.  I usually end up putting one side in well and then raking a little screwdriver along the other side lockpick style to make sure the other side is seated properly before pushing it in.

I have broken off a leg with these sockets. Ended up soldering a new one on from a scrap chip.  That wouldn't work if the leg snapped off right at the package.

[njay]

Shardian,

i have a good working LW3 here so if you need any pics or info tell me

[shardian]

Shardian,

i have a good working LW3 here so if you need any pics or info tell me

Thanks for the offer. I can't think of anything i need pics of at the moment. I was hoping to get in the parts before I left for vacation, but it just isn't going to happen. I already took out the RAM socket, and am awaiting the new one.

[shardian]

RAM Socket replaced with GOOD machine pin socket. It's nice when a chip goes in on the 1st try in a few seconds and there is no risk of bending legs...

Replaced the RAM with brand new. Relocated battery pack remotely.
Turn the thing on, and it is still dead with the weird handful of pulsing cpu controlled lights. The only thing that has been effed with is the Game PROM and its socket since it last would work intermittently, so the problem has to lie there. I am sooooo pissed about this board...

[shardian]

Okay, on 3 hours sleep, I got back on this (Thanks for waking me up at 8 sweetie!!!  )

I pulled out the crappy socket job on the game ROM, because the new issue pretty much had to be in there. It was not a fun process, but after busting up the pin strips, I was able to heat/pull each individual pin. I uncovered multiple blown solder points. Yep, that's the work of a professional alright...

I put in new pin strips - QUALITY strips from GPE. I was able to salvage a few solder pads, bridge a few more, but 2 were pretty bad. I ran a short jumper on one, which went okay. Another one had a busted trace. There was a solder pad right next to it, which made things very tight. I used an small chunk of capacitor leg to bridge the gap, and it was a real PITA to get it positioned and not touch that other solder point. After fixing a few bridged legs on the top soldering, I continuity tested - everything good. Then I tested for shorts. I found a few legs that had slight bridging. After all of that was cleared out, I reinstalled the EPROM and put everything back together. The game booted up! Something was odd though. The outhole was not working. After a ball or two, I tried to enter test mode - and it would not go into it. I also noticed the blanking light had turned off. I cycled power, and now it doesn't boot. Why? because the Blanking light is not coming on. Sometimes it comes on for a brief second, but then goes back out. I have acid damage in the blanking section, and it appears the guy might have tried to neutralize it. Unfortunately, there is no parts list for the schematic. WTF?? Does anyone have a DE CPU board parts list? How could the manual not include this??

[shardian]

Problem is pretty consistent now. Cold, it will try to boot. When the relay kicks on the power supply, blanking shuts down. That makes me suspect a bad relay, but after power cycling the PIA light comes on and stays on with blanking staying off. I think I have a bad PIA chip or some other hard to trace issue. I'm about to my budgeted repair time limit, so...

I posted on Rec.games.pinball looking for a board. I've had two promising leads. One is odd though. A guy is offering to modify my Rev 2 board and add the special coil circuitry to it. He claims to have a modded rev 2 running in his Star Wars. I've never heard of this mod. Have any of you? I assume he drills holes and runs jumpers in the blank spot where the circuit would go. I can't help but be apprehensive after my last shipped repair fiasco. I'd rather just buy a working board and be done with it.

I also got a typical google groups offer, which is why I don't like that place. A guy offered to take my board in trade, and send me a working one for $250! It was worth a laugh. I kindly mentioned his price is higher than a brand new repro from rottendog. He got all uppity and said "Yeah, but do you know the crappy quality of Rottendog?". For $250, a brand new repro will be a hell of a lot better than a ticking time bomb original...

[shardian]

I had an offer of $150 + shipping for a working rev. 3 board. I noticed flux on a chip in the somewhat blurry pics, and then saw the socketed replacement on the front. I asked for clearer pictures of this area, and got them. There were multiple blown solder points, but the bridge work looked like good work. More importantly, I saw considerable rework in the coil driver section in these better pictures. Much more than I was comfortable paying $150 + shipping for. Seller was firm, so I walked.

I asked explicitly in my original want post that I didn't want a board with many blown solder points - I don't care how good the repairs look. If she would have bumped her price down to $130 shipped, I would have bitten. It irritated me a bit that this rework was not mentioned up front. I would have been pissed if I would have bought and seen this once I opened the package.

[ChadTower]

I'm following it but don't know that board well enough to offer any advice.

Now, when you get to a Sys7 board, give me a shout.  I am learning more about these stupid Sys7 boards than I ever wanted to know.