New pin: Lethal Weapon 3 (Update: FIXED)

[shardian]

I called up the guy I got my last 3 game haul from, and bugged him about the dead LW3 pin he had in his house. He gave me the whole story again about how he wanted to some day fix it, blah blah blah. Then, he finally accepts reality and tells me I can buy it for cheap! I swing by and look at it after talking with him. Game looks great, but he says it doesn't work. He has a brand new MPU still in its shipping box that comes along with it. He also has paperwork and spare parts at one of his laundry locations he will get me later.

Anyways, I go to verify his price, and he knocks another hundo off. How sweet! I guess I inadvertently said it in a way he interpreted as negotiating...or his wife really wanted it out of there.

Got it home and started checking stuff, checking manual, etc. Game booted, but the outhole kept kicking and the DMD stayed fully lit. MPU LED's were functioning properly, so I knew the existing board was bad. No clue why he bought the new one then, so I already felt good. I manually ejected the balls, and find there is one too many balls in the trowl. Turn the game back on, and it works other than the DMD. WOOT! While blindly playing a few games, I start to notice the DMD blinking when I nudge the game. No...surely that isn't the problem. The guy ASSURED me a board was messed up! I pull the dmd/speaker shelf and check connectors. One connector fell off, so I put it back in place and fired her back up. Success! There is one single always lit column of pixels still, but I assume that is a connector issue still.

As you can see, the cabinet has some wear. The metal pieces need painted. The playfield has no wear at all. A simple cleaning will have it mint. There is one broken plastic. The left kickout hole, and the right slingshot don't work. Kickout is just super weak, sling does nothing. Haven't run tests yet. The skill shot targets need replaced too I suppose. Other than that, the game works perfectly. Flippers and all other coils are strong.

I can't believe I got this game working so easily. I believed the guy when he said it had issues. He even bought a brand new MPU... just goes to show a little troubleshooting goes a long way when buying $200 parts!

Oh, and one more thing: playing this pin with the glass off causes hearing loss! I need to get the kickout coil fixed quick so I can put the glass back on.

[pinballwizard79]

I hate stories like this.

Seems like I can buy a restored Treasure Cove machine & 2 year later it needs a board....meanwhile you buy a machine for nearly nothing, then get a free board with it & all because the owner couldnt find the power switch.

---fudgesicle--- my life.

On another note congrats, I like DE machines...

[njay]

so how do you like your machine?

im saving for a Lethal weapon 3 it costs around 650 euros fully working here
not to much is say

[shardian]

I really like it so far. I has about everything I could ask for in a DMD pin. It even has 2 sets of drop targets! Game plays very fast, but it is true the DMD animations are a little on the long side.


I fixed the slingshot - just a broken off wire. One of the wires was semi-cold soldered on the kickout hole, but that wasn't the problem. The coil is just too weak to kick the ball out. I'll go ahead and order a new coil I suppose.

[Jeff AMN]

I really like it so far. I has about everything I could ask for in a DMD pin. It even has 2 sets of drop targets! Game plays very fast, but it is true the DMD animations are a little on the long side.


I fixed the slingshot - just a broken off wire. One of the wires was semi-cold soldered on the kickout hole, but that wasn't the problem. The coil is just too weak to kick the ball out. I'll go ahead and order a new coil I suppose.

Coils very rarely go bad. Before a new coil, I'd try replacing the coil sleeve and checking to see that everything is aligned and moving freely. I have only once had to replace a coil in some odd 30-40 pins.

[shardian]

Coil is a 5005, red label on that kickout. I resolder both connections. Verified the linkage works fine, with very little effort. I'm baffled. I traced the power wires, and didn't find anything odd yet. I did find another bulb with a busted off solder joint though.

Like I said, it just barely nudges the ball when it is time to kick out.

[shardian]

Okay, definitely mechanical...but I don't know how/why. I replaced the sleeve, but the one I pulled was perfectly fine. There are no lubricants to speak of to gunk it up. The end of the plunger felt like it had some rough edges, so I sanded it down and then polished it with 2000 grit. It feels great when I just put the plunger in/out with the assembly disconnected.

Put it all together, and it only moves about 1/8". If it put my finger on the linkage just a bit to get it past that point, the coil will fire. Any more ideas? I can't think of anything else to do now.

[shardian]

Sounds to me like you've got a sloppy part in that linkage.  I'd see about replacing it.

Other thing you can do is see if the link can be flipped over and used the other direction.

Grr.... I'll go ahead and tear out the entire assembly this evening and give it a thorough once over.

regarding pre-drivers. Is it possible that one of the pre-drivers is bad, and I'm only getting a fraction of the voltage necessary. I'm not an expert on transistors, but is it even a remote possibility that this could be the issue?

Could I simply disconnect the signal side of the bad assembly, and jumper over to another kickout during test mode?

[shardian]

Stop over complicating this.

I just want to make sure I have all possibilities ready to test in my limited tinker time. I telling you that there is absolutely nothing different about this saucer than the other 2 in the game. If anything, it is in better shape than the others.

Is it really complicating things to bridge a signal wire to make another coil fire via the same transistors? I just want to make sure it is something I can do safely.

[shardian]

If the game is attempting to fire the coil when it should be, you do not have a logic problem. 

Someone mentioned it, and I did see in my brief overview of the pinrepair document that some coils can have 1-2 pre-drivers. Like I said, I have no clue how exactly this works yet. For all I know, the main transistor could be bad and the pre-driver is sending a ridiculously weak signal to the coil - but a signal nonetheless.

Like I said before, is this even a remote possibility? Even when I pushed it past that 1/8" mark, it seemed on the weak side.

[shardian]

I pulled the entire assembly, cleaned it, checked for problems, etc. Sanded the end a little more, so absolutely no mushrooming to speak of. The whole mechanism moves cleanly and perfectly. It acts exactly the same still! I've been reading about the transistor logic of this machine, and the L/R relay could be a remote possibility as a problem.

I also tested the diode, and got odd results. Unfortunately, I don't have any 4004 diodes - just 4001,4002,4007's.

[shardian]

You didn't try swapping parts, did you?

 

Unless a single spec of dust can hold back a high powered coil, this simply cannot be a mechanical issue. I'll be testing voltage, transistors, and the L/R relay this evening. And hey, if I get proved wrong I will happily bow to down to you as master.

[shardian]

Ahh, I see what you are saying about the plunger now. Duh! okay then, I will compare assemblies with the other kickout before I do anything else. I can almost guarantee it is the right plunger though, because the link is the correct blue. It all appears to be original.

There are no parts missing.

[shardian]

$1 says you've got the wrong plunger in that coil. 

I'll be happy to supply you with my paypal address, or would you prefer to send cash? 

Assembly tests fine by directly grounding the coil, and by directly grounding the transistor. Hence, the problem lies in logic. I pulled out the board and now see why people don't like Data East. These boards cook themselves!! The 7408 chip associated with this coil has been previously replaced...badly. It is now socketed, but almost all of the solder pads on the solder side of board are gone! I'd almost bet the problem lies with a crappy connection on the associated pin.
I noticed solder pads missing on several other places on the board. Damn...some people need to stay the hell away from a soldering iron...

After looking it over, I figured I'd go ahead and put in that new board I have. I got as far as putting on 2 connectors and the batteries before I looked at the roms installed  - Robocop. Uh Oh... Checked reference materials, and then checked the board - revision 2. Son of a...

So now I am kind of stuck. I don't think my soldering skills are good enough to work with missing pads. I need to do some practice and research on repair methods in this case.

[shardian]

The problem lies in the logic even though the mech works fine after you actuate it 1/8"?

New one to me.  I'll give you your dollar when you come visit the Alamo.

Like I said, it was really weak. It will pull the plunger down, but half-heartedly. If I lightly held it, it would not go.

[shardian]

It still is baffling that the coil even tries to fire. I get equal voltage (43 volts approx.) at each lug. Anyone care to take a technical stab at what is going on?

[shardian]

If the game is attempting to fire the coil when it should be, you do not have a logic problem. 

Someone mentioned it, and I did see in my brief overview of the pinrepair document that some coils can have 1-2 pre-drivers. Like I said, I have no clue how exactly this works yet. For all I know, the main transistor could be bad and the pre-driver is sending a ridiculously weak signal to the coil - but a signal nonetheless.

Like I said before, is this even a remote possibility? Even when I pushed it past that 1/8" mark, it seemed on the weak side.

No, not really.  You've probably got the wrong plunger.

The coil firing at this point was a red herring. It somehow had enough juice to pull the plunger down once i gave it more to bite on. It was enough to pull it all the way down, and lightly slap the stop. I could stop it by holding it with my finger.

Obviously it is a possibility, because it is happening. I would be very curious to know how/why this is happening. If the 7408 has bad connections, it shouldn't do anything I would think. How does it send a signal to a fully powered coil, but only very weak. 

[shardian]

Put the glass on last night, and now the pin doesn't work. It worked fine before I put the translite and glass back on...

To top that off, the monitor in my Paperboy crapped out about the same time.

[shardian]

According LED status, I now have a bad game EPROM...or two. Pinrepair guide also goes as far to say that this is very rare. What the.....

I have older rom chips, but now I am hesitant to install them. Anyone here burn EPROMS? I supposed I should just send off all of my rom sets for this and get them burned to the newest update. That way I have several good sets.

[shardian]

They are 2.08 roms. I still have the older ones too.

I also just collected a box of new parts/bulbs from the guy I got the game from. Very cool.

[shardian]

I hope you at least took that guy to dinner and a movie....

Oh, and I also got his copy of the pinrepair guide. Notes and all...so now I know for sure who did the beautiful soldering work that lead to the dead kickout.

[shardian]

Lots more reading, lots more pondering, lots more pacing, etc. I was looking at an MPU schematic today, and noticed that the chunk of components below the batteries was the 'blanking' section. I had noticed light corrosion on some CPU pins the other day, so I decided to inspect closer. Odd that the pinrepair guide didn't list this as a potential problem for the blanking LED staying off...

I pulled out the board, and started peaking around. The acid damage was worse than I thought. I cleaned up the components, then pulled the CPU. more damage in the socket. I took off the socket, cleaned up some more acid, and installed new socket strips. Cleaned up the CPU chip, and put her all back together. Oh, and I scoped the board out again for cold solder and blown pads.

I looked closer at the blown pads, and deemed most of them 'okay'. Any with solder side traces appear to have continuity. Those with parts side traces seem okay too. I didn't do too much thinking on this, because I wanted to install the board.

Fired her up, and it works again. The flippers also now properly lock out during fight video mode after reflowing the relay connections. Unfortunately, the left saucer kickout is still non-functioning.

Eh, at least the game works again!

[shardian]

Dammit!

I was trying to figure out a way to block off the left saucer, and when I went to turn the game back on, it was dead again. I went to pull the CPU again, and I slipped and it fell down into the cabinet. I fetched it out, and 2 of the acid damaged legs had broken off. Oh well, needed a new one anyways. As I slid the playfield back, it frikking fell off the tracks. Hopefully I didn't break anything.

Can things go any worse???

PS. Anyone have a spare 6802 processor they can send my way?

[shardian]

Man...I am about done screwing with this. I started poking/prodding any and all connections on all boards. I made sure everything was good and secure, etc. reseated chips again for good measure, which I hate doing (more later). I took the CPU chip from the spare board I had, so it is complete again. After tinkering with all the connectors, the PIA LED came on and stayed on. That is a first. I can turn it off, tinker with all the connectors again, then the next time the PIA goes off and blanking never comes on. Then I can poke/prod AGAIN, and the game tries to boot to the "Open Coin Door" message. Opening coin door does nothing again, then after a while it (the blanking LED and the game) dies.

Obviously there is more to this. I think the PSU might have some issue.

Last thing. I was getting frustrated, and decided to reseat the game EPROM again, Started to pull it out, then one side gave alot quicker than the other...I broke a mother effing leg off!!!!!

I HATE this crap!!!

[njay]

sweet i payed 50 euros down payment for my lethal weapon 3 and will be picking it up next saturdag

so if you need any pics from a fully working pinball let me know i will share !!

[shardian]

I sent the board off for proper repair. I'll report back in a week or so. I insured it for the replacement cost of a rottendog new CPU, so fingers crossed USPS busts it all to hell! 

[shardian]

This pin has been in decommission for a while now. The 'repair' I sent off for ended up being a disaster. The dude all the sudden had to travel all over the globe for work, and went 'off the grid' for over a month. I finally sent a 'not pleasant' email, and got my board sent back. From emails he sent before going dark, the board was supposed to be booting just fine, and he was just needing to fix the coil issue. Needless to say, I got it back in worse condition than it was sent off in. No, it does not work. The machine does go absolutely ape ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- when I turn it on though.  Lesson kiddies: If someone tells you they have worked professionally in board work, don't just take their word for it. There is professional looking rework on that board, but it was done by my hands.

Needless to say, I put in an order at GPE for all the parts I need + extras to get the board working again. Hopefully replacing the 5D RAM and socket will get it back to booting. I'm going to replace the crappy socket repair the guy did on the 5C game ROM, because the machine pin socket strips he used SUCK. It took me 20 minutes to massage a game rom into the socket - and that is after I tried unsucessfully to install 2 other game roms that didn't have all perfectly straight legs. Unfortunately, it looks like some solder pads took some damage during that repair. I might just have to leave it alone. I will still have to deal with the coil that is firing too weak. The main TIP102, the pre-driver, AND the 7408 chip for that coil appear to have ALL of the solder pads blown off. I've convinced myself that the fact the coil meekly attempts to fire means that the drivers and 7408 work, but that I need to rework all of the jumper repairs. I ordered enough parts to replace everything in the chain if need be. This is going to be interesting!

[shardian]

What was the tech's name?

Doesn't really matter. He's a KLOV member, and was looking to expand into other manufacturers. Not one of the well known repair techs if that is what I led you to believe. I was actually in talks with Chris Munson, but went with this other guy because he seemed like a likable fellow, and I had done some business with him already. Figured I'd help him develop a name for himself in the board repair biz.

[ChadTower]

Do the single strip sockets really suck or are you just having trouble getting chips in and out?  I use single strips and it is much harder to remove/insert chips than the standard sockets.  They supposedly have a far lower failure rate, though.

I have had very few successes getting boards sent out for repair too.  It sucks.

[shardian]

I need to take a pic of them. I've used machine pin socket strips, and have had excellent results. The strips he used though...they aren't the same. The ones I use have a kind of 'cup' shape at the top that guides the pins into the holes. The ones he used have like an inverted cup that keeps the pin AWAY from the super tiny hole. I've never seen sockets like these, and I have to assume for good reason.

[ChadTower]

Then not these, I assume...

[shardian]

can you get a zoomed in pic of the actual pin socket?

[ChadTower]

I tried on the original that isn't web optimized but it doesn't give us what you want.  I can tell you that the socket is concave but is not smooth.  It has angles in it that a leg can catch on if you're not careful.  I usually end up putting one side in well and then raking a little screwdriver along the other side lockpick style to make sure the other side is seated properly before pushing it in.

I have broken off a leg with these sockets. Ended up soldering a new one on from a scrap chip.  That wouldn't work if the leg snapped off right at the package.

[njay]

Shardian,

i have a good working LW3 here so if you need any pics or info tell me

[shardian]

Shardian,

i have a good working LW3 here so if you need any pics or info tell me

Thanks for the offer. I can't think of anything i need pics of at the moment. I was hoping to get in the parts before I left for vacation, but it just isn't going to happen. I already took out the RAM socket, and am awaiting the new one.

[shardian]

RAM Socket replaced with GOOD machine pin socket. It's nice when a chip goes in on the 1st try in a few seconds and there is no risk of bending legs...

Replaced the RAM with brand new. Relocated battery pack remotely.
Turn the thing on, and it is still dead with the weird handful of pulsing cpu controlled lights. The only thing that has been effed with is the Game PROM and its socket since it last would work intermittently, so the problem has to lie there. I am sooooo pissed about this board...

[shardian]

Okay, on 3 hours sleep, I got back on this (Thanks for waking me up at 8 sweetie!!!  )

I pulled out the crappy socket job on the game ROM, because the new issue pretty much had to be in there. It was not a fun process, but after busting up the pin strips, I was able to heat/pull each individual pin. I uncovered multiple blown solder points. Yep, that's the work of a professional alright...

I put in new pin strips - QUALITY strips from GPE. I was able to salvage a few solder pads, bridge a few more, but 2 were pretty bad. I ran a short jumper on one, which went okay. Another one had a busted trace. There was a solder pad right next to it, which made things very tight. I used an small chunk of capacitor leg to bridge the gap, and it was a real PITA to get it positioned and not touch that other solder point. After fixing a few bridged legs on the top soldering, I continuity tested - everything good. Then I tested for shorts. I found a few legs that had slight bridging. After all of that was cleared out, I reinstalled the EPROM and put everything back together. The game booted up! Something was odd though. The outhole was not working. After a ball or two, I tried to enter test mode - and it would not go into it. I also noticed the blanking light had turned off. I cycled power, and now it doesn't boot. Why? because the Blanking light is not coming on. Sometimes it comes on for a brief second, but then goes back out. I have acid damage in the blanking section, and it appears the guy might have tried to neutralize it. Unfortunately, there is no parts list for the schematic. WTF?? Does anyone have a DE CPU board parts list? How could the manual not include this??

[shardian]

Problem is pretty consistent now. Cold, it will try to boot. When the relay kicks on the power supply, blanking shuts down. That makes me suspect a bad relay, but after power cycling the PIA light comes on and stays on with blanking staying off. I think I have a bad PIA chip or some other hard to trace issue. I'm about to my budgeted repair time limit, so...

I posted on Rec.games.pinball looking for a board. I've had two promising leads. One is odd though. A guy is offering to modify my Rev 2 board and add the special coil circuitry to it. He claims to have a modded rev 2 running in his Star Wars. I've never heard of this mod. Have any of you? I assume he drills holes and runs jumpers in the blank spot where the circuit would go. I can't help but be apprehensive after my last shipped repair fiasco. I'd rather just buy a working board and be done with it.

I also got a typical google groups offer, which is why I don't like that place. A guy offered to take my board in trade, and send me a working one for $250! It was worth a laugh. I kindly mentioned his price is higher than a brand new repro from rottendog. He got all uppity and said "Yeah, but do you know the crappy quality of Rottendog?". For $250, a brand new repro will be a hell of a lot better than a ticking time bomb original...

[shardian]

I had an offer of $150 + shipping for a working rev. 3 board. I noticed flux on a chip in the somewhat blurry pics, and then saw the socketed replacement on the front. I asked for clearer pictures of this area, and got them. There were multiple blown solder points, but the bridge work looked like good work. More importantly, I saw considerable rework in the coil driver section in these better pictures. Much more than I was comfortable paying $150 + shipping for. Seller was firm, so I walked.

I asked explicitly in my original want post that I didn't want a board with many blown solder points - I don't care how good the repairs look. If she would have bumped her price down to $130 shipped, I would have bitten. It irritated me a bit that this rework was not mentioned up front. I would have been pissed if I would have bought and seen this once I opened the package.

[ChadTower]

I'm following it but don't know that board well enough to offer any advice.

Now, when you get to a Sys7 board, give me a shout.  I am learning more about these stupid Sys7 boards than I ever wanted to know.

[shardian]

 I am learning more about these stupid Sys7 boards than I ever wanted to know.

That's how I feel about everything I know about pinballs! 
I know Gottlieb Sys. I inside and out, and now I know Data East pretty darn well. Both were by necessity than choice. Whodunnit is WPC-S, and I have no desire to learn that hardware. I just want it to work. I go "duh...." when I look in the backbox of that one. I've dug far enough into that system to figure out why someone wrote in a 5A fuse over the factory 3A fuse that blew. That's as much as I want to learn. I just want to play some frikkin pinball...

[ChadTower]

Heh.  I think I need to step back from Black Knight for the same reason.  Thought I had it working well until I playtested and found out the sound still doesn't work right.

I have the parts now to go back in and fail on either the Asteroids Deluxe or the Berzerk monitors, though.

[shardian]

I just got an email from the guy claiming to have modded a rev 2 board to rev 3 capabilites. Here is a pic of the hack:

Of course I was apprehensive after the last disaster, so I did a search for him in google groups. He is BOB DWOJEWSKI - he is the guy doing the Earthshaker repro plastics and playfield for Classicplayfields.com .  I think I am pretty safe this time.

[ChadTower]

Meh, I say just wait on a better deal for a working board. 

[shardian]

Meh, I say just wait on a better deal for a working board. 

I'll be taking my rev 3 board over to a local during lunch to look at the board and bench test. He's in robotics and PIC programming, and is looking to get into the arcade hobby. In the meantime, I'm going to install the Rev 2 board in the machine. I need to prove it is tested working 100% anyways so I can sell it. I might still get the mod done to it though. Haven't decided.

[shardian]

I installed the Rev 2 board this evening. Don't know why I was a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- about it before, it was quite painless. Now the game works with the exception of pop bumpers, slings, and ball save kick-back. And yes, the left saucer works perfectly.

I can live with this handicapped playability for a while.

[shardian]

How do I put this eloquently? SCREW THIS MACHINE AND THE DEMON WHORE MOTHER IT CAME FROM!!!

I played on the machine for a while with the rev2 board installed last night. I had all of my games on, and we were having a good time. I had just finished a game of Whodunnit (on which an air ball snapped the end of a plastic off...that sucked) and decided to pack it in for the night. I drained all the balls that my wife/daughter left on the LW3, then turned everything off. Then I went into the living room for a bit. About 10-15 minutes later, I came back out into the gameroom to get my shoes. There was an overwhelming scent of electrical burning, and there was a slight haze in the air. Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---... I frantically went around the room smelling all of the games through the coin doors and backboxes. I saw nothing burning and could not locate the source. We both made a best guess it was the LW3. When I looked in the backbox, I noticed a connector wasn't fully seated. I went ahead and plugged it in all the way.

I turned the game on, and after it booted something inside the cabinet locked on. It came with a loud buzzing sound too. I cycled the power and now it starts as soon as power is applied. I never saw or heard anything out of the ordinary before I originally turned it off.

In closing, I now hate this game and want it gone. Anybody want it , along with all the restoration parts and both boards for cost?

[ChadTower]

I feel your pain, bro.  That's a terrible feeling. 

(coughAsteroidsDeluxecough)

[shardian]

I pulled up the playfield to watch for what coils were locked on. Right drop bank and knocker are locked on. I have no clue why.

[ChadTower]

Has to be the standard reasons for locked coils, I'd think.  No reason to believe you introduced a short in the wiring, right?

[shardian]

Has to be the standard reasons for locked coils, I'd think.  No reason to believe you introduced a short in the wiring, right?

I have absolutely no clue. After I first put the board game in, I realized the outhole wasn't working - as such, it wasn't a symptom on the Rev 3 board that I went over earlier. The signal wire had broken off its lug. I don't think that was relative to the locked coils. Everything was fine, and I'm pretty sure the knocker worked at one point in playing.  I need to go through and test all of the transistors on the boards I suppose next.
I went through and ohmed out every coil before finding the locked coils last night. All of them tested fine. I don't have much faith in the coil ohm test though. That's about as far as I've gotten. I did notice the smell still lingers in the backbox, but nothing is obviously damaged. I had a bad coil in Charlie's Angels back in the day. That driver transistor was about as obvious as a burned up transistor can be!
I just need to take a step back for a bit I think.

[ChadTower]

You don't have to check all of the transistors.  Just check the ones related to those coils, and the predrivers if they have them, I'm not sure on that board. Check the coil diodes too just for fun.

Could a bad pia be a cause here?  I suppose it's a real hard one to find if you're not confident in the data line sockets.  There could be a short any number of places.

[shardian]

Q1 in the blanking circuit was bad. It literally fell off when we poked at it while cleaning that area. It is a T518a voltage detector. I am not having any luck at any of the parts suppliers though. Anyone care to help me locate one?

[ChadTower]

That might help a little but probably not enough.

That one might help a little too.

[shardian]

Q1 in the blanking circuit was bad. It literally fell off when we poked at it while cleaning that area. It is a T518a voltage detector. I am not having any luck at any of the parts suppliers though. Anyone care to help me locate one?

Just to be clear, this was on the uninstalled Revision 3 board I have originally been having all the problems with.

[shardian]

I'll give you $500 shipped to San Antonio.

LMK

$450 + shipping and you can have every spare part I have, including the extra board. I bought everything necessary to do a shop out, which wasn't exactly cheap.

[shardian]

Except for a working board.

For a pinball genious such as yourself, this should not be an issue. I'd bet it would take you 20 minutes to fix the rev 3, and mod the rev 2 to add the extra circuit. Then you can spend a day shopping the cabinet, sell it off for $900+ and sell the spare board for $100. Not a bad day's salary mr pinball.

[shardian]

You mean how did the smoking/burning start after I left the room and powered it off? I don't know. I can only assume it happened in the last 2-3 minutes of me having the machine on, and it just took a few minutes for the smell to work its way out of the cabinet. I have a vague memory of hearing a coil fire that probably shouldn't have. I blew it off though. Of course, that might be a false memory too.

[shardian]

I went over the power supply good before changing boards out. Power is fine. There is 4.9v at the CPU board.

[pinballwizard79]

I have a good board repair guy (engineer @ boeing & been doing pinball work on the side for I dunno 20+ years), he just fixed my PSboard & MPU on my DE JP.

http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/RepairService.htm

If you contact him he will prob say he doesnt have a DE machine to put the board in (thats what he told me so I took my whole JP there).

Let him know he can put your board in my TFTC for testing that I am dropping off next Saturday & that I referred you to him.

He will only have the machine for a week or two so you may want to pull the trigger soon if you are going to get board work done on it.... get to shipping bro :-)

[shardian]

I've grown confident enough in my abilities that I know I can do this one myself. I just need a break from it for a bit, then I will tackle it. If not, I have a local friend that can do it.

[shardian]

You mean how did the smoking/burning start after I left the room and powered it off? I don't know. I can only assume it happened in the last 2-3 minutes of me having the machine on, and it just took a few minutes for the smell to work its way out of the cabinet. I have a vague memory of hearing a coil fire that probably shouldn't have. I blew it off though. Of course, that might be a false memory too.

I took the rev 2 board out to steal a part today for the rev 3 board. Remember how nice and clean this board was? Well not anymore. A TIP122 coil driver on the cpu board is burned all to hell! I'll need to investigate exactly what happened a little closer before firing up the Rev 3 that I am close to fixing.

Anyways, yet another reason why I see people do not like DE games from the reliability/repair standpoint. Oh, and the schematics are still some of the worst I have ever seen.

[shardian]

Replaced the Q1 detector thing in the blanking circuit - game still doesn't boot. Music is now playing though... no idea why. I had left the coil connectors off for now. It was the right drop target driver that melted down on the rev 2 board. There is a quarter sized black scorch mark on the back box from it!

[shardian]

I was discussing this pin with a friend on the way home from work, and decided to swap out the known working socketed chips from the rev 2 board when I got home. I did and the machine booted. That's nice, so I decided to brace myself and plug back in the coil connector to the board. Game booted up without issues or locked coils - so problem lied in the rev 2 board apparently. I played a quick game, and that damn left saucer still won't fire powerfully enough to launch the ball. I replaced the 7408 socket myself, so it should not be an issue. When I get a chance I will go ahead and shotgun both driver transistors. Maybe the pre-driver is open or something...

Like I've said before, when I short the TIP 122's tab, the coil fires perfectly. Figured I'd refresh everyone on that before Jim accuses the coil again... 

Needless to say, I feel much better now...until something else effs up of course!

[shardian]

I had an excess of energy tonight from some EXCELLENT family news, so I put that energy to good use - not going to sleep until this damn thing was either fixed or burned to the ground.

I went over the left saucer circuit with a fine tooth comb. I fixed any/all possible shorts or breaks in the traces. Everything checked out, including the transistors. Still, the saucer couldn't kick out the ball. So I went balls out. I replaced the 7408, and both transistors. I made sure the new repair work was perfect. Plugged back in the CPU for what seems the 1000 time, and fired her up. I was then blessed with the most beautiful sight I have ever seen in this hobby: That cursed saucer kicked out the trapped ball! HALLELUJAH! I FIXED that scum bum piece o crap!!!

The only issue left is the DMD. There is a single column that stays lit 24/7. Also, the display has an odd blooming effect in solid areas during cut scenes. I noticed it when I put in the rev. 2 board, and it is still there with the rev 3 board. I assume the display is just going bad. At a later date, I will go over the DMD board and check it for errors. It is not a major issue at this time.

[Q*Bert_OP]

The only issue left is the DMD.  Also, the display has an odd blooming effect in solid areas during cut scenes. I noticed it when I put in the rev. 2 board, and it is still there with the rev 3 board. I

Your DMD's input voltages are too high. Check them to make sure they are within a +/- 10% range.

[shardian]

The only issue left is the DMD.  Also, the display has an odd blooming effect in solid areas during cut scenes. I noticed it when I put in the rev. 2 board, and it is still there with the rev 3 board. I

Your DMD's input voltages are too high. Check them to make sure they are within a +/- 10% range.

And if they're not, then what? There's nothing to adjust. The only thing that changed was that I went over the PS and cleaned up any suspect solder pads, and replaced the top right molex board mounted connector. I didn't think making the board 'better' would make my voltages 'worse'.

[shardian]

Did I say I had this fixed?

I played 2 games this morning. Both times blanking died sometime during the game, thus locking up the game. I think it has to be the battery corrosion in the blanking section, since it works most of the time. Man, and error like that is almost impossible to trace! So, I'm going to get some resistors at Rat shack today and shotgun the entire blanking circuit, along with the 7402 chip at the top right of the board that controls the 555 timer. The board needs to be bulletproofed anyways, right?

I consider this a minor problem, and still think the game is fixed. That coil has been a thorn in my side for a long time.

[Q*Bert_OP]

The only issue left is the DMD.  Also, the display has an odd blooming effect in solid areas during cut scenes. I noticed it when I put in the rev. 2 board, and it is still there with the rev 3 board. I

Your DMD's input voltages are too high. Check them to make sure they are within a +/- 10% range.

And if they're not, then what?

If they're out of range, the high voltage power supply needs to be rebuilt. Also, broken traces in that circuit can cause this.

[ChadTower]

Keep plugging away at it.  Good job.   

[shardian]

The only time I've seen blooming was on my Demolition Man and that's when the DMD was running at 140V.

Most of the time, it looks completely normal. When there is significant 'stuff' on the screen, some areas get blotchy - areas are dark where they should be lit. Kind of like someone is pushing on the screen with a finger.

Regardless, I will have to do some research and measure some things.

[shardian]

I pulled the board and rebuilt the blanking section this weekend. I did not replace the two capacitors (one standard cylindrical and one of those green rectangle deals) as they looked mostly okay. I also didn't have replacements...

I also noticed that I got short changed in the bulk pack of resistors from Rat Shack. There were no resistors at all in the 4xxxx series (first band yellow). I had to reuse that resistor - luckily its legs were fine and it ohmed out properly.

I put the board back in and fired her up. This was at about 2 in the morning, so I just ran it through diagnostics for about 20 minutes with no problems. The next day, I play tested. It still is dropping out the blanking signal, but it takes much longer now.

Yesterday I play tested and logged about 8-10 games before it finally dropped blanking.  I can turn the machine back on and it will work., though I think one time it did not until a second power cycle. There is no rhyme or reason to how or why it fails. I will go ahead and replace the 2 caps and see where I stand.

I've researched this problem on RGP, and several people have reported it. Unfortunately most of the threads end in a dead end! Several people point to an intermittent bad PIA chip, but then never supply a resolution. The Test Eproms usually can't find this though. I'll try again soon!

Side note: I do enjoy this game. It's a really fun ball slapper that requires no thinking.

[shardian]

I picked up the caps at Rat Shack last night. They also replaced the resistors missing from my bulk pack. When I got home, I logged 5 or so games. The machine never kicked off on me, and I had to go inside. I'll replace the caps as soon as I get a chance, and then keep playing it for a bit.

Back to that display issue though. Jim, do you have any experience with the displays in DE machines? They are supposed to run at different voltages than Bally/Williams displays. I've checked connectors and everything looks okay.

[shardian]

Are your voltages within spec or close to it?  Only issue I've had with a DE display was a few lines missing from broken pins on the glass.

Another DMD pin around that you can swap displays with and see if the problem migrates or stays with the machine?

....yeah....but I think you would understand my extreme aversion to 'effing' with a perfectly working DMD in a perfectly working game...

I think I still need to check the DMD voltages. I don't think I have checked them. I'll get back to you.

[shardian]

I just read the section on the DMD in the pinrepair guide again. It always makes much more sense after spending plenty of quality time with the machine...probably the 10th or so time I've read it too.

Anyways, the problem is pretty much guaranteed to be a HV rebuild of the power supply. I think I'm just going to buy a replacement PSU and be done with it. Allegedly the repro PSU has a much more robust +5 line anyways...

[ChadTower]

Why buy a new one instead of rebuilding?  Aren't you going to just sell this one off?

[shardian]

Swapping displays takes 5 minutes.  If you're afraid your known-working display is going to be torched by your Lethal Weapon (it won't) then move your cloudy-Lethal-Weapon-display to the known-working machine. 

You really need to isolate it to a board or a display problem before you proceed with any repairs or ordering.

If it's a Babcock display, it will not work in my other one. However, the Whodunnit display will work in the LW3. I started to look at it this morning while the car was heating up, but didn't get very far.

[shardian]

Hmmm...

I measured the voltages just now...I have no idea how the DMD is even working.

Here are the expected values
Medium 128x32 DMD, connector P1:
•   P1 pin 1: -110 volts
•   P1 pin 2: -98 volts
•   P1 pin 3: KEY
•   P1 pin 4: Ground
•   P1 pin 5: Ground
•   P1 pin 6: +5 volts
•   P1 pin 7: +12 volts (only used on Babcock displays)
•   P1 pin 8: +68 volts

Pin 1 was correct. Pin 2 was in the upper 80's. Pin 6 was at 2-3 volts. Pin 7 and 8 weren't even in the ballpark.

I can't see which brand of display I have without taking it all apart. I won't have time for that until this weekend. The difference = one brand uses +12, the other 2 don't.

[ChadTower]

That's progress.   

[shardian]

I pulled the DMD power connector at the DMD and measured at the plug. It's not .156 pins, so I had to wedge my black lead in the ground braid and measure on the exposed backside of the pins. It should not matter, but figure I should throw that out there.

The power board isn't the most accessible thing, but I will pull the connector and measure directly off the board next.

[shardian]

When measuring DMD voltages, you need to take them off the actual pins on the DMD when the display is plugged in.

Is this because the circuitry requires a load to run? This is never even hinted at in the pinrepair guide.

[shardian]

This is because you need to verify what is actually making it from the power supply to the DMD.  No idea what the circuit does without a load, but that's why you're going to measure at the DMD, and if the voltages are incorrect, measure it at the power supply.  It's a good habit to get into.

I see what you are saying now. You're basically testing the pins at the same time of testing the voltages.

[ChadTower]

He's breaking the circuits down into smaller circuits in order to isolate where the problem lies.  Start at the source, determine good voltages.  Move on to the next possible test point, ensure still good.  Keep moving forward until it is bad, then you know the problem lies between those two points.  Or, start where it's bad, and keep moving backwards until it is good.

[shardian]

Well...I already know the voltages are bad BEFORE the DMD. I measured at the DMD end of the connector!

[ChadTower]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's right about needing the DMD present and under power to get proper test readings.

[ChadTower]

Every game I get seems to have component failures when I get it.  PIAs, drivers, predrivers, RAM, ROM, etc.   

[shardian]

Every game I get seems to have component failures when I get it.  PIAs, drivers, predrivers, RAM, ROM, etc.   

Same here.

[ChadTower]

What can I say?  It's the whole "it followed me home can I keep it" syndrome.  It's not like I pay a lot for these games so I can't really complain.  My project games tend to be good titles that I got really cheap but need a lot of work.

[shardian]

Yesterday I played the machine until it failed so I could poke around some more. game would not boot again after power cycle, which is what I wanted. I flexed every power connection on the game to no avail. I flexed every component in the blanking circuit too. At one point, the PIA light stayed on with power up, but went away the next time.

I decided to let the machine cool back down and see what happened. I came back about 2 hours later and sure enough, the game fired right up. I should also note that the last week I have been playing with the head wide open so I could watch the LED's. Last night I played with the head closed up. It definitely failed sooner.

What's all this mean? It means I highly suspect a cold solder joint on a PIA chip, or merely a bad PIA chip that needs to heat up to intermittently fail. In the meantime, I am going to reflow every PIA pin and see what happens. There are 6 PIA's, and I don't look forward to hunting down the specific error if it is a bad chip.

[ChadTower]

If you think it's a PIA, play it to failure, then spray the PIA with cold spray.

[shardian]

If you think it's a PIA, play it to failure, then spray the PIA with cold spray.

INteresting! If it is a PIA, that should allow me to isolate which one, right? Then I can just replace it.

[ChadTower]

That's my theory.  Canned air held upside down = cold spray.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, but that means you have to play it until the point of failure again. 

That's not too much of a problem for those of us with lots of other people around.  I can set my 10 year old loose on a game and he'll literally play it until it fails or I make him stop.

[shardian]

PIAs have no rework. That doesn't mean anything though.

[shardian]

Eh, I doubt they magically developed cold solder joints, though. 

On a normal game, no. On a DE boardset, it is highly likely. They come with built in ovens in the form of large banks of closely mounted cement resistors. 

[ChadTower]

It could easily just be intermittently failing, too, and have no cold joints at all.

[shardian]

Also, this is a known/documented issue at RGP....they just don't say if it is a specific PIA, or any one of them. That is the part that sucks...

[shardian]

Tried to fire this up Christmas eve, and it was allmessed up. Weird coil pulses, lighting pulses, etc. Not to mention it fired up in the middle of a game with a score of 30k something?!?

On power cycle it kept trying to boot over and over. blanking on/off/on/off

Today I tried the DE test Rom again. I've tried it before and it didn't do squat. Since the game is in full-blown failure though, I figured it would be worth a shot. The solenoid PIA fails. Unfortunately, the test stops at that point. I have to replace that PIA and hope it is the pnly bad PIA.
I'm also going to bite the bullet and order a full-blown PS rebuild supply. It will be much cheaper than a new PS, and won't take me that long. Besides,the things I've been hearing about Rottendog chintzing on component specs has me officially leery. It's nice when a technical person gives very specific reasoning behind an opinion than the common "Don't order there - they're crap." 

[ChadTower]

Is that an RGP comment?  I agree with jim that you really can't trust what you read there in terms of vendors.  Way too many guys with long memories and unreasonable expectations.

[shardian]

The fellow from GPE explained in detail the issues folks have with Rottendog boards.

[Jeff AMN]

I have two pins with Rottendog boards and I've never had any issues with either.

[shardian]

I have two pins with Rottendog boards and I've never had any issues with either.

The issue apparently is that Rottendog uses some components that work prefectly fine, but are at or near the safety threshold. I believe the regulators are the main complaints. Allegedly, the long term life of these components will be much shorter than they should be. A repro board should be designed to give faultless operation in the long term. Pascal Janin and his spectacular System I boards is the quality standard bearer in this regard. He designed his board so that you can go homicidal with a screwdriver and short coils to switches, and the board will not be damaged.

[Jeff AMN]

I know what the issue is, according to GPE, but I've not found that the actual number of complaints line up with the amount we should be hearing.

[Jeff AMN]

RGP is fine for getting a feel of a product. Before putting one into my Bride of Pinbot I specifically asked about quality issues and nobody tried to deter me from buying one. One of my machines already had one in there, but I wanted to double check some opinions. If people have been burned by a product, they'll bark given the chance.

In fact, the only person I've seen really complain about Rottendog boards is Great Plains Electronics. They seem to dislike the boards, but I don't know if it's based off of actual history with the product or just a dislike for the specs. Either way, I have heard that it's easy to get them replaced if you get a bum board.

They're probably not bulletproof, but they're good enough that they don't have a black mark on them.

[tattoo kid]

I have been following this thread and also the one on KLOV.I too have 3 Rottendog boards installed  in my machines (all System 11 power supply boards) and have never had any issues with any them. Before buying them, I did alot of searching for issues pertaining to their boards and read only good comments.

You think with all the people that visit these threads (KLOV and BYOAC) that people with issues would start posting comments, but I still have not seen a negative comment other than an issue that pertains to their customer service (the KLOV thread in which the person does not even want to say what the issue is). I cannot comment on their customer service, because I have never had to use it. 

Guess I can always go back to the original supplies (which I have repaired with components from GPE) if there are any issues.

[shardian]

The rev. 2 board that came with this machine was from Rottendog, and sold as a working board to the fellow I bought the machine from. It was still sealed in the original rottendog shipping box. 2 TIP drivers locked on.. This was a board error, not a cabinet or wiring error. I'm not faulting rottendog, because the board did sit in its box for probably 3 years. However, that is my only experience with Rottendog, and it didn't exactly leave me with an overflow of confidence.

I trust my ability to rebuild the existing board - besides, I've already reflowed everything and replaced a burned up board connector. Might as well keep going.

[shardian]

I just finished replacing the 5F solenoid PIA...but the test rom still fails at the same 3rd flash. I am baffled!

[ChadTower]

Did you socket the new one?

[shardian]

Did you socket the new one?

Of course! I have a spare, I'll try it. I destroyed the original by going ahead and cutting the legs. I didn't want to risk ruining any pads. For the record, I only plugged in the power connection to run the test. Thus, nothing could have backfed and blown the replacement PIA.

[shardian]

Or could it?

 

Man, with glorious advice like this I'll have this thing working in no time. 

I'm pissed off right now, because I just did some butchering repair work. There is a 74xxx chip in the chain of chips that is the only thing left in the coil circuit that hasn't been replaced (and is probably toast). I pulled the same chip from my rev 2 board to put in the rev3 board. I also tried to save the same chip on the rev. 3 board as I pulled it out. BIG mistake. I pulled out a solder thru hole, and broke the chip in half. I then had to use SIP strips and had to run a jumper on the missing plated thru hole.

I put in the chip from the rev 2 board, but who knows if it survived the transplant. Anyways, I checked all socket pin continuity, plugged in the chip, and powered the board. It now has no life - as it freezes on the first PIA flash. Dammit!!!!!!!!

I seriously HATE working on this board now. It is a real piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I've wasted so damn much time and parts money trying to solve this...I give up.

Not to mention it seems I'm the only damn person in the world willing to tinker with DE boards. No one knows jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about them except for 1-2 folks who repair them, and there is zero worthwhile knowledge out there to fix my problem. I've counted at least 10 RGP threads with a problem extremely similar to mine - all of them appear to have went unanswered.

I'm just really pissed off right now. I'll probably suck it up and work some more in a week...like I've done for several months now. I just want a working game...I'm tired of working on it.

[shardian]

Meh, I think I'll just go the pbj route and browbeat/lowball folks on rgp and offer them $20 shipped for minty nice boards...

Feel free to stop reading if you aren't interested and all you have to add is smart ass comments.

I'm tired of working on it.

And we're tried of reading this thread, dude. 

Now, I'm not Uncle Pennybags but isn't the solution to your problem just to belly up and plunk down $200 and get another board? 

The reason you can't find any decent DE repair threads is because you can still get the boards from Stern.   

[tattoo kid]

From reading this thread, it seems to me, that you are your own worst enemy.

Last thing. I was getting frustrated, and decided to reseat the game EPROM again, Started to pull it out, then one side gave alot quicker than the other...I broke a mother effing leg off!!!!!

I HATE this crap!!!

Man, with glorious advice like this I'll have this thing working in no time. 

I'm pissed off right now, because I just did some butchering repair work. There is a 74xxx chip in the chain of chips that is the only thing left in the coil circuit that hasn't been replaced (and is probably toast). I pulled the same chip from my rev 2 board to put in the rev3 board. I also tried to save the same chip on the rev. 3 board as I pulled it out. BIG mistake. I pulled out a solder thru hole, and broke the chip in half. I then had to use SIP strips and had to run a jumper on the missing plated thru hole.

I put in the chip from the rev 2 board, but who knows if it survived the transplant. Anyways, I checked all socket pin continuity, plugged in the chip, and powered the board. It now has no life - as it freezes on the first PIA flash. Dammit!!!!!!!!

I seriously HATE working on this board now. It is a real piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I've wasted so damn much time and parts money trying to solve this...I give up.

[shardian]

From reading this thread, it seems to me, that you are your own worst enemy.

As Forrest Gump says, 'it' happens.

[ChadTower]

At this point I would write this board off, at least for the present, and get a working one.  It's not worth all of this frustration.  If you want later on you can go back to this board and continue working on it but at this point it sounds like the board is just not worth the effort anymore.

Good try, man, but shoot this dog and get another.

[shardian]

FYI, just broke down and paid for a working 100% board. That is a painful experience for a cheap person...
Probably gonna sell my 2 leftover boards soon.

[shardian]

Trading the 2 leftover boards toward the new board. I am quite happy with the deal. New board should be here on Wednesday or Thursday.

Will probably be sending off the PSU to the guy for a rebuild too. I will be happy to abandon board work on this one and concentrate on the playfield work that I like the best.

[shardian]

Got the board in. Plugged it in this evening and it works great. Considering he is taking both of my other boards that are now in crappy condition (I treated the rev 2 like a parts board after that driver melted down) in trade, I came out pretty well. I would have preffered better, but I'll take what I can get at this point.
Of course the DMD is still splotchy. I'm going to pull the PS again and look it over good. I reflowed everything questionable on it, so don't know why it would be doing this. IIRC, it was fine before I did the reflowing. Weird... I apparently just don't get along with this machine!

[shardian]

I put the power board back in this morning, and decided to check the fuses and verify they were correct. I thought I had done this before...

Anyways, there was a 10A fuse in F6 - F6 is the solenoid fuse... So yeah, I know why I melted down that Rev. 2 board now... can't believe I overlooked this before!! I was convinced I had checked it out!
After making a mad dash special trip to Rat shack and realizing the employee was a moron (told me they had 5A slo blows), I had to settle on a pack of 4A and 6A fuses. I went with the 6A since I figured it would still pop if there was a problem, but not pop because a kid was wailing on the flippers during multiball.

Game ran perfectly with a ton of play for about 4 hours. Matter of fact, the 'splotchy' effect on the DMD almost went away. There was only the tiniest amount of splotch after about an hour. Something is up with the police light at the top of the cab though. The fuse was blown before, so I replaced it. I know it was working for at least a while, but after a while it was not on during M-ball. I'll have to figure out why the 1A fuse is popping on that, though it is a pretty minor thing. I never notice the light while I'm playing anyways.

Now it is time to clean her up good. Like I've said before, this pin is just a great all around game to slap the ball around. Everyone seems to enjoy Whodunnit, but the rules confuse the hell out of them. With LW3, there is no confusion.

[shardian]

No no, the splotches magically showed up a a few months back after I took out the PSU to give it a once over. Today the splotchiness actually almost completely went away after the machine was on for a while. I'm thinking it may just be the temperature or some cold solder on the DMD board. Who knows. That room is normally pretty cold, but it was pretty warm in there this evening with all the people, games, and heater on.

[shardian]

Sure enough, the splotch effect was in full force with the room cold last night.

makes me wonder if the problem is in the power supply, or just a DMD going bad. Yes Jim, I know swapping DMD's is the test. If I get a spare hour sometime in the near future, I will swap the displays.

[shardian]

Been doing some reading on DMD's. The display is shot. Has to be.

[JeepMonkey]

Where do you guys buy your replacement displays?  I was looking around and found one for $180.  $120 sounds much better.