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Author Topic: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!  (Read 72766 times)

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Haze

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #120 on: June 03, 2005, 06:04:48 am »
Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.

All MAME is saying in these cases is 'we acknowledge that these bootlegs existed, the bootleggers made these hardware changes, this is how it worked'   Then if somebody comes along thinking 'i'm sure I saw a Bagman on Moon Cresta Hardware before' and looks in MAME they'll be able to see that yes, infact one did exist.  MAME is a document, acknowledging something exists doesn't make it illegal, and hardcoded CRC lists can help anybody who may have a non-working board identify what it actually is, and thus determine if they actually own a legal board.  Do you think anybody would actually want to *play* those bootlegs?

You're seeing things far too much from a gamers point of view, which is one of the problems we're having.

And no, we don't care about popularity, I don't think anybody on the dev team would care if everybody started using vantage to play their games, or raine, or anything else providing they left us alone to develop.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #121 on: June 03, 2005, 06:28:46 am »
Actually I am far more of a collector than a gamer. I have around 100 boardsets, have owned several hundred more, and have owned over 100 dedicated games.
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Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #122 on: June 03, 2005, 08:13:05 am »
Is it really going to be THAT much hassle to liaise as a community with the mamedevs on this? Why don't we let the dust settle and discuss a proper fair-use policy.

There is SURELY a compromise that can be reached between a non-profit making project for the mamedevs and a hobbyist community such as BYOAC + emulation scene in general. Nobodys stealing the bread out of anyones mouths here and I'd imagine they can understand our passion for retrogaming given their involvement with Mame.

We all ultimately want the same things guys. Lets put our heads together and see if theres a way to weed out the major copyright infringers/profiteers from the hobbyists.

Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #123 on: June 03, 2005, 09:41:12 am »
We all ultimately want the same things guys.
No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad.  They've said numerous times that MAME isn't meant for playing games, it's only a side effect of the documentation process.  This is, I believe, the crux of Aaron's posturing: "You don't share our ideals, so we're going to make life hard for you."
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Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #124 on: June 03, 2005, 10:01:24 am »
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:35:44 am by Dexter »

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #125 on: June 03, 2005, 10:12:45 am »
No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad. 

Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them  ::)
Here's part of Aaron's post on mame.net:

Quote
Those of us who work on MAME are interested in preserving the understanding of how this hardware works. The fact that there is a cottage industry for hobbyists built up around it isn't a big deal. The fact that it is expanding into a large marketplace with a large amount of copyright infringement and abuse is hugely concerning. It is important to distance MAME as far away from that as possible, because it is only going to hurt us in the long run.
So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.  Hence my statement that "they don't care about our community" (i.e., we're not a big deal to them), and "they don't like our community" (we're abusers they're concened about).

I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.  This is not exactly a big suprise.

See Mame.Net Forum Post for the full post.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:09:07 pm by Peale »
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #126 on: June 03, 2005, 10:15:16 am »
I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #127 on: June 03, 2005, 10:28:28 am »

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

I'm with Alan here.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 10:33:51 am by Nannuu »
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #128 on: June 03, 2005, 10:31:29 am »
I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.
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Haze

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2005, 10:32:09 am »
No, we don't.  They want to document games; we want to play them in an arcade style environment.  They don't care about our community; they don't even like our community, because it makes them look bad. 

Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them  ::)

Our primary goal is to create a document about how these various pieces of hardware worked.  The rest of the statement is a bit of an exageration, we care about the community, board owners etc, that is why we strive to keep the information contained within MAME as accurate as possible (even if we do get moaned at for changing filenames all the time, changing sets by adding extra proms to drivers and such.. but if our primary goal was games why would we do this?).  MAME was however never intended to be a replacement for the actual arcade machines being used to generate an income.

Beyond the pretty 'oooh free games' surface people seem to see in MAME is a vastly complex and technical document / piece of software detailing the how a large number of pieces of hardware worked to the best of our ability.

Claims that we wish to start any sort of war with the community are highly exagerated and overblown, simply a set of guidelines have been created in order to avoid problems for all concerned.  If you're 'MAME fans' surely you understand the need for us to work in a way which doesn't cause us problems and a part of that is ensuring that MAME is not misrepresented.  I do get a general feeling from many people however, that once the games they want to see emulated are emulated they no longer care less about the project, the developers behind the project, or the future of the project, and with the vast majority of the classics now well emulated thats a growing concern.  We are only taking these actions because we believe they are in the best interests of the project, and therefore at the end of the day the community and anybody else who follows the project.

Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2005, 10:37:38 am »
I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2005, 10:39:45 am »
Ah, but there is the trick, there is no such thing as a legal Zola board to begin with.

Here is an example, lets say I happen to have a bootleg copy of "The Phantom Menace" on a VCD, copied with a video camera in a movie theatre in a foreign country. I can buy 100 Phantom Menace DVDs, I can even stand in front of my own TV with a camera and make a "fair use" copy that way, but nothing I am going to do is going to validate that asian bootleg VCD.


It doesn't matter that there's no legal zola boards.   If usa network had rights  to show phantom menace does it really matter where they got their copy?  The CD itself is illegal, the information on the cd is not.   If I buy 100 licenses for a software product they don't actually send me 100 cd's.  I can get the software anywhere.   

 And in fact that's happened.  Someone mentioned that some of the commercial emulator CD's have readme's along with the roms showing they were downloaded from illegal sites, doesn't make the roms illegal, just the site they got it from.


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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2005, 10:43:06 am »
I would love to be wrong, but they have stated the goals of their project and their "MAME isn't for playing games" stand numerous times.
In fact, this is actually mentioned right on the mame.net homepage:

Quote
Even though MAME allows people to enjoy the long-lost arcade games and even some newer ones, the main purpose of the project is to document the hardware (and software) of the arcade games. There are already many dead arcade boards, whose function has been brought to life in MAME. Being able to play the games is just a nice side-effect.

As I said, just like being able to listen to my music CDRs is a nice side effect of my documenting albums that I never actually bought.

That would be a valid comparison if your CDRs contained only the checksums of albums and a copy of winamp. 


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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2005, 10:44:50 am »
Claims that we wish to start any sort of war with the community are highly exagerated and overblown...
Now you're exaggerating.
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2005, 10:52:03 am »
Quote
Those of us who work on MAME are interested in preserving the understanding of how this hardware works. The fact that there is a cottage industry for hobbyists built up around it isn't a big deal. The fact that it is expanding into a large marketplace with a large amount of copyright infringement and abuse is hugely concerning. It is important to distance MAME as far away from that as possible, because it is only going to hurt us in the long run.
So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.

Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2005, 11:06:46 am »
Can't the mamedevs liaise with us here to confirm who are reputable retrogaming supliers such as andy etc and who aren't, when these suppliers are seeking permission to use mame (tm) on their webpages and so on?

I think Communication and compromise could be todays most improtant words people. When push comes to shove, mames continued development is in everybodys interest who are genuine retrogamers. The devs are entitled (especially after the ultracade crap) to protect it over the long term, and we can correspond and work with them on issues that affect us.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2005, 11:22:34 am »
So, at best, we're "not a big deal" to them, and at worst we're "infringers and abusers" that are of concern to them.
--Chris
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2005, 11:27:44 am »
There are only a handful of people actually affected by this and one of them has already posted that the situation is being rectified. Our speculation can't help.

I was one complaing earlier and it was really about the vendors.  So if Dream Arcades has found a way to make it work, then so can tokn and the like.  Then IMO the problem has seen resolution.

Sure there may be room for improvement in the wording, but if "a shotgun approach" is the best way to protect people then so be it.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2005, 11:45:57 am »
Sure there may be room for improvement in the wording, but if "a shotgun approach" is the best way to protect people then so be it.

I think the "one-time only" rule is still a bit harsh, but I'm definitely seeing their point of just killing all auctions with "MAME" in the title - if you're selling something legit, it will most likely work with a lot of other emulators and equipment, not just MAME-specific stuff. If you're selling ROMs...well, you got what's coming to you.

I know if I was in a situation where I had to check out dozens or hundreds of eBay auctions every day to weed out infringement and illegal sales, I'd do the same thing they've done (the shotgun "all MAME titles go" approach).

I still wish we weren't in this situation to begin with, but David Foley triggered a series of events that left us where we are today. Unfortunately, he wins - he's gotten exactly what he wanted, and doesn't even have to lift a finger anymore to kill MAME-related auctions.

Somehow, I predict the phrase "for Arcade Emulation" will become popular...

Kevin
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Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #139 on: June 03, 2005, 11:47:46 am »
My statement that you're quoting above was only made to defend myself from Dexter's sarcastic remark.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #140 on: June 03, 2005, 11:58:33 am »
I think the "one-time only" rule is still a bit harsh, but I'm definitely seeing their point of just killing all auctions with "MAME" in the title - if you're selling something legit, it will most likely work with a lot of other emulators and equipment, not just MAME-specific stuff. If you're selling ROMs...well, you got what's coming to you.
Well, my entry into this fight was regarding keyboard encoders.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 12:01:35 pm by Chris »
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #141 on: June 03, 2005, 11:59:28 am »
 What a mess. :(
NO MORE!!

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #142 on: June 03, 2005, 12:05:56 pm »
My statement that you're quoting above was only made to defend myself from Dexter's sarcastic remark.
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #143 on: June 03, 2005, 12:13:03 pm »
Well, my entry into this fight was regarding keyboard encoders.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 12:21:40 pm by Dexter »

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #144 on: June 03, 2005, 12:29:18 pm »
Am I taking this up wrong or are you the only one seeing this as a fight? And sarcasm? And everything else.
Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment, but here's how your post appeared in its entirety before you edited it:

Quote
Nice of you to speak on their behalf, but I think I'll wait to hear a mamedevs opinion rather than have you give it for them
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 12:31:01 pm by Chris »
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #145 on: June 03, 2005, 12:32:16 pm »
Honestly enough. How many times DO you have to use MAME in your auction? I mean it's like

Title: Keyboard encoder for use with Arcade Parts
Title: Arcade Part to PC encoder

That's two that didn't need to use MAME.

Description
blah blah blah....
Compatable with:
MAME (Recommended)
Super Karate Fighter Men
Ford
Namco's Super Pac-man for PC


Now saying
Title: Keyboard Encoder for Mame

just plain implies that it's for and only for MAME. I think that sucks. Just like saying "Floormat for Fords" makes people automatically think it's FOR Fords and that's it. If someone said Keyboard Encoder for Kid Kye's Super Juice Box game. That automatically - ugh. I 'm repeating myself. :(
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #146 on: June 03, 2005, 12:35:42 pm »
yeah but nintendo wanted $25 per classic for the gba.  If the rates are outrageous then it won't make a difference and everyone will still pirate.

Yeah, I mean seriousely. Everyone I knew had been complaining that the classic Nintendo games werent' avalible, so Nintendo releasing them on GBA sounded good on paper. But when I read that just ONE of those classics would be the price of a brand new GBA game, I threw my Nintendo Power across the room. I'm not going to pay that much! I just turned on my PC and played the rom, to wich I also owned the original game cartridge. If Nintendo had been selling a pack of 10 classic games for like 15-20 bucks, then I'd say that's reasonable.

Anyway though, with all this talk of items being pulled off of eBay, I am not worried. It will make it harder to search for items on eBay, sure, and it's definately not fair to vendors selling something billed "Mame compatable". And the "you are allowed to say Mame once in an ad"... IANAL, but even I know that that is complete and total BS. But as I said, I am not worried... People will still find ways to sell their machines. If someone has a MAME logo on their machine, all they have to do is take the picture into Photoshop and blur it out. If search bots are involved, then people will begin simply miss-spelling MAME or spacing it out like M A M E to keep the bots from detecting it. I'm not advocating breaking the law, but I'm just saying that when you try to kill a fly with a bazooka, all you're going to do is make a really big hole in the wall.

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #147 on: June 03, 2005, 12:38:44 pm »
Now saying
Title: Keyboard Encoder for Mame

just plain implies that it's for and only for MAME. I think that sucks. Just like saying "Floormat for Fords" makes people automatically think it's FOR Fords and that's it.
That's an excellent example.

Car floors have different shapes.
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #148 on: June 03, 2005, 12:39:16 pm »
Just stepping in between the handbags for a sec
I didn't touch it....honest!

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #149 on: June 03, 2005, 12:41:35 pm »
surely everyone will just call it M@ME on ebay

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2005, 12:43:08 pm »
what they are doing seems extremely sensible as it will allow them to completely disassociate Mame from any wrong doing in the future.
I'm sorry, I disagree.
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2005, 12:46:59 pm »
foley is winning driving a wedge between mamedevs and the BYOAC community  :'(

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2005, 12:48:20 pm »
Accepted.

My point was that MameDev are taking independent action rather than waiting for another enterprising soul like Foley to try to steal it out from under them again screaming 'foul'. Their lawyers have likely advised them that they need to take positive action to protect their trademark.
It doesn't seem like they are trying to ban the products just make people be a little more creative in the way they advertise them and associate their suitability for use with a trademarked product.
I didn't touch it....honest!

Dexter

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2005, 01:09:48 pm »
Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment

Why? If you can quote it, its obviously already visible for the whole world to see! Quote away chief....

spystyle

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2005, 01:12:43 pm »
What's the deal with this:

"you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software"

It should be legal and free to tell anyone how to do anything

For example:
You CAN legally buy a book on how to convert an SKS (semi-auto rifle) from semi to full-auto (a sub-machine-gun) and read it to your heart's content, for entertainment purposes. That book is sold on Amazon.com

But you CAN NOT actually do the conversion, because it's illegal (in this country, anyway)

Hell : you can even legally buy the plans to build nuclear bombs!

So the MAME dev's are telling us what we CAN and CAN NOT tell people?

I'm certian that goes against our constition...

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2005, 01:18:12 pm »
10 Mame Commandments....Fill in the blanks

1. Thou shall not use my MAME in vain
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10
Thenasty's Arcademania Horizontal/Vertical setup.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=26696.0

Free VGA Breakout Cable
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=38228.0

Ultimate All in One Coin Mech write up (Make your own)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=19200.0

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2005, 01:22:53 pm »
What's the deal with this:

"you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software"

It should be legal and free to tell anyone how to do anything

For example:
You CAN legally buy a book on how to convert an SKS (semi-auto rifle) from semi to full-auto (a sub-machine-gun) and read it to your heart's content, for entertainment purposes. That book is sold on Amazon.com
Now take that book you bought, put it on ebay with the tools to create the bomb.  That's what is going on here.

spystyle

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2005, 01:33:26 pm »
Assuming there is no plutonium included, that would be 100% legal.

Back on topic:
If there are no ROMs or copyrited software included, and no trademark infringing words, the instructions on how to find the ROMs would be protected under our "Freedom of speech"
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 01:37:08 pm by spystyle »

Chris

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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2005, 01:34:54 pm »
For those advocating the shotgun approach, please see http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37779.0.html.

--Chris
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Re: MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!
« Reply #159 on: June 03, 2005, 01:35:27 pm »
Well, I was trying to avoid quoting your comment

Why? If you can quote it, its obviously already visible for the whole world to see! Quote away chief....
I did.  And you dodged the question.
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