MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[KevSteele]

I got a copy of a letter today that is being sent by Aaron Giles to vendors on eBay whose auctions got yanked today because of "trademark violations":

From: Aaron Giles [mailto:ebay@mamedev.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:25 AM
Cc: Nicola Salmoria
Subject: Re: VeRO NOTICE: eBay Listing(s) Removed - VeRO Program

We are in the process of auditing auctions that violate the MAME trademark.
We are concerned about a number of auctions which attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project.

Based on the abuses we have seen in the auctions on eBay and elsewhere, we are attempting to define rules surrounding the usage of the MAME trademark.

Below is what we currently have defined.

1. You cannot use the trademark "MAME" in the title of your auction.

2. You may use the phrases "compatible with MAME(tm)" or "works with MAME(tm)", but you may only mention it once in your ad.

3. You must not use the trademark "MAME" in the name of your product. This only implies official endorsement and we do not endorse products.

4. You must not use the MAME logo under any circumstances; this again implies official endorsement.

5. You cannot include MAME or a derivative thereof with what you are selling unless you obtain permission. At this time, we are still discussing under what circumstances, if any, MAME will be permitted to be included with commercial products. If you have already requested permission, your request will be answered once a decision has been made.

6. You must not include any unlicensed game software (ROMs or CHDs) or artwork with your product. Furthermore, you must not provide information to those who purchase your product concerning where to obtain unlicensed game software.

7. You must not mislead the buyer with pictures or lists of games that do not come included with your product. Any games or pictures you use must refer to properly-licensed games that are included with the purchased product.

Please note that the situation is evolving, and we will likely be modifying/expanding these rules based on future violations we discover. For more information on the license and trademark, please see http://mamedev.com.

Thank you for your cooperation,
The MAME Development Team



This is troubling to me for several reasons, not the least of which is that many of the products pulled do not use or sell MAME in any way (such as keyboard encoders).

Just using the word "MAME" in the auction title is enough to get your product yanked, apparently, which seems insane to me. How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

Kevin

[quarterback]

How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

Nobody claims it's 'damaging the MAME name', it's just an "attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project".

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

[monkeybomb]

I would love to hear from patent doc on this one.  I'm a little confused as to why there isn't a way to use the MAME name anyway.  Can HP pull auctions for ink cartridges that are claiming to work with one of their printers?  Can Ford pull an auction for floormats if the are listed as fitting nice in a ford mustang?  Or is that the whole point of a TM and those companies just choose not to do this?  There are leagal uses for MAME and leagal uses for the KB16 with MAME.  Why can't he say so without the mamedev permission?

[RayB]

That's still over-reaching. If something is compatible with MAME, then it's compatible with MAME.

[KevSteele]

How is "Keyboard encoder for MAME" or "Cabinet for MAME" damaging the MAME name?

Nobody claims it's 'damaging the MAME name', it's just an "attempt to associate themselves with MAME without having any formal connection to the project".

Pulling auctions because they have the word "MAME" in the title is a bit overzealous, don't you think? If you create a product that can be used with MAME, shouldn't you be able to mention that fact? People ususally search auctions by the title, and pulling MAME out of the title is going to have an impact.

Now if someone is selling something illegal, or that contains the MAME code, I agree - pull the auction. But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

Kevin

[nobody]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

yeah maybe allowing such free use of the MAME tradmark somehow undermines their copyright

[Chris]

I've been generally supportive of the mamedev's flexing of their trademark muscle, but this sucks.

[KevSteele]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

My guess is that it has more to do with the agreement between the MAMEdevs and their copyright lawyers.

yeah maybe allowing such free use of the MAME tradmark somehow undermines their copyright

If you mean "trademark" instead of copyright, perhaps - trademarks must be protected, while copyright does not require enforcement.

Still, if IBM had been able to squash any company that said they were "IBM Compatible", where would we be today.

And how can MAMEdevs say things like:

you can only use "MAME-compatible" once in your ad

...does trademark enforcement have that much legal power?

[divemaster127]

Let say a person wants to sell their Dell computer on ebay so now you cant use the word dell, I think this is crazy & someone has to much free time on there hands, I have looked at the ebay auctions nobody is selling roms so what harm is being is being done,  I fill like Mr. Foley still haunts us.
thanks

[menace]

I see they are also cracking down on using artwork or mentioning roms--so now they have gone from free reign to way over reaching their mandate.  If I want to stick a picture of pacman on my cab then let namco come after me--the mamedevs have no legal footing on that point--its just being silly.  And I agree that mentioning it once is a tad silly (even if once is enough) I've never seen anything that limits the number of times of useage within a document--if you have permission, you have permission, there isn't any of this counting crap.

And like others i applaud them protecting the mame (tm) name but to adopt a big brother attitude is pretty lame.

[DreamArcades]

I wish MAME(TM) would just go Open Source! So we could avoid all this nonsense.


MAME(TM) is a pending trademark of Nicola Salmoria. Dream Arcades LLC, is not affiliated with MAME(TM) or the MAMEdev team.

^{<edited to comply with new MAME(TM) usage rules.>}

[Q*Bert_OP]

@!#!$@$%^%&^%((*&^$%T&$%      or whatever Q*Bert says!

[CheffoJeffo]

I think it is a little early to ascribe motives to the MAMEdevs.

Their priority is (and probably should be) to protect the project, not to make it easy for us to build/sell cabinets and play loads of games. I suspect that those two issues are beginning to diverge and that the latter is threatening the safety of the project (at least in the minds of the lawyers).

I thought that there were general fair use terms that covered trademarks and would be curious to know how these new limitations compare to fair use provisions.

Cheers.

[RandyT]

IANAL, but there is a little thing known as "fair use" that may or may not be applicable here.

Of course, lawsuits can be filed just because someone has a bad morning, so it all boils down to how far one wants to take something based on legal principle.  It also won't matter when they come to yank your auction. So as long as eBay takes the stand of not taking a stand, IP owners can do whatever they want there.

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

It also won't matter when they come to yank your auction, so as long as eBay takes the stand of not taking a stand, IP owners can do whatever they want there.

Perhaps the most relevant statement on the entire issue to date.

Cheers.

[monkeybomb]

It seems like it would still mean a lot to Mameroom.com , but yeah it realy is up to e-bay.

[AlanS17]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

[Hoagie_one]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

[monkeybomb]

yeah but nintendo wanted $25 per classic for the gba.  If the rates are outrageous then it won't make a difference and everyone will still pirate.




MAME  MAME  MAME  MAME MAME  MAME  MAME

This post is available for auction.

[Tiger-Heli]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

[monkeybomb]

Because it would leagalize and legitimize the whole hobby. 

[divemaster127]

This is going to change nothing, within a week or so the auctions will all be back up with the word mame, & if not the auctions will still be there, sometimes the mamedev's forget without the followers this project would be dead, maybe its time a select few came out of the clouds...

[nobody]

Maybe the MAME team is just concerned that this exposure isn't such a great idea in general. When people start using MAME to make money it could wake up game makers.

i think this would be the most logical explanation, at the moment MAME isnt massive money (compared to alot of related things) and its spread over lots of different vendors. My guess is companies dont mind alot of the stuff since alot of the time people are buying their old cabinets anyway. Howver if 5 jillion people make scratch built cabs and load up 5,000 ROMS they are going to start buying up the rights to all the old games and come down on the free download sites like a ton of bricks. Then we are all going to have to pay a shitload for every single game we buy

[Hoagie_one]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

if more companies offered legitimate sources for their old games, it would add a legitimacy to the Mame process.

[nobody]

which could be a good thing....because then maybe then they would start wanting to get a piece of teh action and start selling roms or a license to use a rom.

And exactly WHY would THAT be a good thing

if more companies offered legitimate sources for their old games, it would add a legitimacy to the Mame process.  people could make money selling cabs.  Companies would make money selling rom sets legally.  Even teh Mame devs could start making money legally and still continue the project.

Then we wont all have to go around acting like we dont pirate or something.

but it would end up that as more money gets involved the more companies will be bought up by the giants and well end up with about 3 companies controlling the market

[Hoagie_one]

so?

[divemaster127]

I read Kevins post at retroblast.com, & I agree 100% with him, how is this harming mame's business by someone selling a keyboard encoder, or a button, I read a email some guy was selling gas pedals & had his auction pulled, this is really pushing it & like kevin stated how is this harming mame, I think the dev's owe a answer

[Tahnok]

I can see them not wanting you to include MAME or not use the logo, but not allowing you to mention it (more than once)?!

Not using "MAME" on ebay means fewer people buying cabs. Fewer people buying cabs means fewer people downloading and contributing to MAME. I don't see how this benefits them.

[quarterback]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Is Mame gonna be another Ultracade Ultrapoo???

[quarterback]

how is this harming mame's business by someone selling a keyboard encoder, or a button

Not using "MAME" on ebay means fewer people buying cabs. Fewer people buying cabs means fewer people downloading and contributing to MAME. I don't see how this benefits them.

I think you all are completely misinterpreting the mamedev's motives here.

[AlanS17]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs owe nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

[AlanS17]

Is Mame gonna be another Ultracade Ultrapoo???

Is the MAME devs ever start charging money for their stuff or Ultracades are suddenly given away for free... sure!

(Neither will happen, though.)

[Tiger-Heli]

I think the dev's owe a answer

I think the devs own nothing. They could just as easily pack it up and call it quits, and they have every right to do so. We don't have much room to complain here.

If your hobby is based on someone else's hand-outs, then this is what you have to put up with. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Beggars can't be choosers.

Is it annoying? Probably. Is it bad? Maybe a little. Do we have the right to complain? Not at all.

Well said!!!!

[Thenasty]

oh man, oh man, here we go again........Can't we just all get along

[paigeoliver]

The hypocrisy of this situation amazes me. I actually went to the trouble of emailing ebay because I thought Ultracade was behind this hijinks.

I am sick and tired of all the hypocrisy in the official positions.

Pot calling kettle. Pot calling kettle.

You're black!!!

[KevSteele]

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not.

I'd disagree with this, at least from my perspective - to me "MAME cabinet" and "Compatible with MAME" or "Can be used with MAME" are the same.

Of course, I have no idea if anyone else reads it the same way, but I still fail to see the damage being done to the MAME project by these cabs if they're not selling MAME or ROMs with the cab, and I fail to see how a "MAME encoder" is somehow making people think that it's an "Officially Endorsed Product of the MAME Gods (tm)"

Kevin

[Thenasty]

I'm really beginning to wonder what the terms of the "agreement" between David Foley and the MAMEdevs was...

Kevin

Maybe the agreement was " I (D.Foley) will not trademark the MAME word and I'll let you (Nicola,A.Giles.,etc) trademark it that you must help me take down any selling/auction that contains the MAME word in the subject ?

[AlanS17]

Someone could see "MAME cabinet" and think "MAME brand cabinet". If something is listed as merely compatible then it's only associated to the product, not the product itself.

Back to the floormat example. If someone was selling "Ford floormats" you wouldn't be expecting floormats that fit your truck. You'd be expecting floormats made by Ford for your truck.

[SirPoonga]

But pulling an auction with no warning just because someone says "Encoder for MAME" or "MAME cabinet" is over the line, IMHO.

I agree that there seems to be some overreaching here as far at any use of the word MAME at all, but I would NOT put the phrases "MAME cabinet" and "Encoder for MAME" (or more specifically "compatible with MAME") in the same category.

"MAME cabinet" implies something that "compatible with MAME(tm)" (or "Encoder for MAME") does not. Which is why (I presume) they will allow you to say "compatible with MAME(tm)" but you are not allowed to just haphazardly include the word "MAME" in your acution title.   They want to ensure that there is no implied association or formal connection, and I can understand that desire.

I don't see anything wrong with the letter.
First, mame doesn't want to be commercial except for a few specific cases like hanaho.
If oyu read what the letter says you can use mame in the description once.  They would probably be fine with a description that said something like "works well with emulators such as MAME, Zinc, Nebula".
They don't want it in the title because that can imply the product is for mame (only) which there really is no product just for mame that can't be used with other emulators.
Now, your title could say "Cabinet for arcade emulation". 
They just don't want you using their name to sell your product.