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Author Topic: A new lightgun?  (Read 4021 times)

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Titchgamer

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A new lightgun?
« on: June 15, 2018, 09:02:59 pm »
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sindenlightgun/sinden-lightgun

What do you all think?
My interest has peeked as ime a big lover of lightgun games but would like more info on how this works.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 09:15:45 pm »
It's really simple. A bunch of goofs give this guy money. He posts pics and videos of his "progress".
After he collects enough money he stops communication and flies to Aruba with all of his "investment" money.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 09:51:36 pm »
It's really simple. A bunch of goofs give this guy money. He posts pics and videos of his "progress".
After he collects enough money he stops communication and flies to Aruba with all of his "investment" money.

Well due to the lack of info thats kind of my concern lol

BadMouth

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 10:27:12 pm »
I really want this to be true, but the refusal to give any inkling of how it works is enough to keep me from backing.

The demo video doesn't really show anything.  The short part that shows the gun shows it being held stationary and pivoting like current IR guns require.
It is also still fairly far from the screen.  The rest of the video might as well be played with a mouse.  It shows nothing.

I don't think it's impossible.  I've just seen too much vaporware in this hobby to get to excited.


EDIT: save a click



Quote
So how does it work??? Well I'm keeping that under wraps at the moment as I want to make sure that all my Kickstarter backers are the first to get to play with the new technology.

Quote
Some software may require tweaking to get working.  You may need to adjust your display settings, Sinden Lightgun settings or the actual video content that is outputted.  Most major emulators such as Mame are fully compatible as it is so easy to change settings.  Some software may not be compatible.  I can't clarify this more without revealing more detail how the Sinden Lightgun works.  Once the software is running you can get perfect functionality.  Please see my videos for some examples of games I have been playing.
The Sinden Lightgun does not like bright direct sunlight shining on the television as this can impact performance.

better video showing it moving around more:

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:37:40 pm by BadMouth »

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 10:37:34 pm »
Yeah I saw those comments to, Have been lieing in bed thinking about it LOL

Ian

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 11:45:20 pm »
My concern is that he is "playing" some games that are not lightgun games... like Star Wars arcade.  :dizzy:
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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 12:17:53 am »
Meh Iíll believe it when I can buy it.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 12:13:37 am »
Iíd be willing to bet heís just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

Titchgamer

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A new lightgun?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 02:50:35 am »
Iíd be willing to bet heís just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 05:25:58 am »
You are wasting your time speculating on this. There is roughly a 100 percent chance that everything he says is a lie designed to collect as much money as he can before people figure him out. If by some miracle it is not a scam, you can just buy one once production starts.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 07:20:58 am »
My interest has peeked as ime a big lover of lightgun games but would like more info on how this works.

Piqued , not peaked or peaked.  >:D
I dont believe in kickstarting or pre-ordering from unknowns. There too many undelivered promises and kickstarter give less than zero fox.  Remember that 90s racing game that was supposed to come out like 2+ years ago?
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Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 07:50:39 am »
I wont be contributing, I want more info and will wait for a final product.

If its real and he succeeds (and I truely hope it does!) I will wait for the wireless one :p

BadMouth

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 08:54:25 am »
I can't believe nobody has bugged him about 2 player use.

Iíd be willing to bet heís just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

He says you may have to adjust your display settings, so I imagine it's camera based.
Judging from the distance and screen size in the video, I'd guess the entire screen has to be visible to the camera.       
I vaguely recall there was an LCD arcade gun system at some point that could be hacked to work with a PC, but you had to make the picture look washed out to get it to work on games other than the original one it was designed for.

I doubt he went this route, but with the new high refresh rate monitors you could probably insert frames the camera could use to figure out where it's pointed.

I've always thought a laser pointer solution would be pretty neat.  Some type of overlay or camera near the screen that could tell the position of a laser dot.  Then it wouldn't matter where the user was standing or what angle they were at.


$332,073 goal and no follow ups or updates so far.
There is no way he's going to make it anyway.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 09:12:35 am »
Primarily plays positional gun games and has crosshairs enabled on Point Blank showing that heís walking the gun onto the target. Heís not aiming and shooting, heís using an air mouse. No doubt. You can tell by the way he holds it as well.

Even if itís not vapor, itís still garbage.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2018, 09:49:18 am »
I can't believe nobody has bugged him about 2 player use.

Iíd be willing to bet heís just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

He says you may have to adjust your display settings, so I imagine it's camera based.
Judging from the distance and screen size in the video, I'd guess the entire screen has to be visible to the camera.       
I vaguely recall there was an LCD arcade gun system at some point that could be hacked to work with a PC, but you had to make the picture look washed out to get it to work on games other than the original one it was designed for.

I doubt he went this route, but with the new high refresh rate monitors you could probably insert frames the camera could use to figure out where it's pointed.

I've always thought a laser pointer solution would be pretty neat.  Some type of overlay or camera near the screen that could tell the position of a laser dot.  Then it wouldn't matter where the user was standing or what angle they were at.


$332,073 goal and no follow ups or updates so far.
There is no way he's going to make it anyway.

Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

As stupid as it sounds the best and most accurate light gun I have ever used is the NES zapper!

Ime amazed nobody has used a slightly modified version of that with a higher frame rate so you dont see the white block.

BadMouth

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 10:16:07 am »
Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

Your Aim-Traks (and all other IR guns) are cameras. 
The camera sees the IR LEDs in the "sensor bar" and bases position of that.
The "sensor bar" is nothing more than some LEDs lit up as reference points for the camera to use.
People have successfully used candles in place of the "sensor bar" for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and giggles.
The Sega arcade systems are more accurate because they have IR LEDs all around the screen, therefore more points of reference for more accurate positioning.

If there is anything to this guys solution, I'd asssume it's a camera using the output of the screen rather than IR LEDs for reference.
In the videos, it doesn't appear to work any better than an IR gun though. 

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2018, 10:52:50 am »
Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

Your Aim-Traks (and all other IR guns) are cameras. 
The camera sees the IR LEDs in the "sensor bar" and bases position of that.
The "sensor bar" is nothing more than some LEDs lit up as reference points for the camera to use.
People have successfully used candles in place of the "sensor bar" for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and giggles.
The Sega arcade systems are more accurate because they have IR LEDs all around the screen, therefore more points of reference for more accurate positioning.

If there is anything to this guys solution, I'd asssume it's a camera using the output of the screen rather than IR LEDs for reference.
In the videos, it doesn't appear to work any better than an IR gun though.

Yeah what I meant was I have never seen a camera reference a screen as such.

Again except the zapper.

Ian

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2018, 11:36:42 am »
Atari VCS anyone?
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2018, 12:40:29 pm »
Atari VCS anyone?

Ile take 3! LOL

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2018, 12:57:01 pm »
Master System light gun craps all over the zapper.  Itís not even close.


Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2018, 02:50:25 pm »
Master System light gun craps all over the zapper.  Itís not even close.

Never had the chance to try a Master System one, What makes them so good?

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 08:55:40 pm »
He put up a video explaining how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcGpr_8W9Y

tony.silveira

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2018, 09:35:24 pm »
i asked about 2 player games, very interested in this tech if heís legit

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2018, 03:34:38 am »
Ahh so it is camera based!
Glad he has tried to explain it.

I sent him a email the other day saying it would be in his best interests.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2018, 04:17:51 am »
Did you ask him if he had his tickets to Tahiti booked yet?

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2018, 04:29:42 am »
Did you ask him if he had his tickets to Tahiti booked yet?

Nope he never responded lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2018, 10:38:24 am »
Not trying to be the proverbial "wet blanket", but the concept is not really new.  I believe we have even heard this concept expressed a few times here, and some of the issues brought up were:

Distance required, especially for larger screens.  I.e. how well does it work when dealing with an incomplete trapezoid?

The need to frame the image, in order to provide markers.  Mame provides this ability, and some low complexity images may not need it. But the possible issues are that light will need to be controlled around the screen, some calibration will still be necessary to isolate the image from the background and tell the application about the game being played (resolution, aspect ratio, etc) and the frame could throw off the display for those looking for 1:1 display accuracy.  Some of this could be automated by linking into a database, or Mame itself, but given the number of possible display options, I'd be surprised if calibration wasn't an eventual necessity.

The other concern is that the demos seem to show a pretty strict 90 degree orientation of the gun.  The effects of turning the gun require some more complicated math, and if it's less than perfect, so will be your positioning.

Finally, the way this is done really isn't so different from using a "light bar" as a reference.  It does provide more markers, but the possible downside is, again, the need to see the entire screen (if it's incapable of handling partial references.)     

It's definitely an interesting proof-of-concept, but I still see a number of hurdles which need to be overcome.  The extent to which these will, or can be, is the risk in buying into the idea.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:21:01 am by RandyT »

tony.silveira

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2018, 11:09:11 am »
i asked hm three questions last night and received a response this morning.

1. how many players
2. how close to screen can you be
3. does it work on old crt screens?

Hi Tony

Thanks for your email.

1) 2 player games are possible as long as the emulator supports it, so Mame definately works.

2) This is all based on the optics in the final product so it's a bit up in the air at the moment. I think you would need to be a minimum of 1.5x the width of the tv back to have any chance of it working, 2x would probably be better for full performance.  If you see my main cover photo based in my living room that gives a good example.  It works perfectly from my sofa but also still works if I lean forward.  My living room is not that big across.

3) Good question, theoretically yes in some cases but untested.  It would definately work on the more modern flat screen CRT.  I think it might have some difficulties on a proper old style curved screen CRT although still might be able to tweak the software to get it working.

Can I ask where you saw my Kickstarter please?  I've refreshed my Kickstarter content last night so you might find that interesting.

Thanks

Andy


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2018, 11:21:58 am »
Not trying to be the proverbial "wet blanket", but the concept is not really new.  I believe we have even heard this concept expressed a few times here, and some of the issues brought up were:

Distance required, especially for larger screens.  I.e. how well does it work when dealing with an incomplete trapezoid?

The need to frame the image, in order to provide markers.  Mame provides this ability, and some low complexity images may not need it. But the possible issues are that light will need to be controlled around the screen, some calibration will still be necessary to isolate the image from the background and tell the application about the game being played (resolution, aspect ratio, etc) and the frame could throw off the display for those looking for 1:1 display accuracy.  Some of this could be automated by linking into a database, or Mame itself, but given the number of possible display options, i'd be surprised if calibration wasn't an eventual necessity.

The other concern is that the demos seem to show a pretty strict 90 degree orientation of the gun.  The effects of turning the gun require some more complicated math, and if it's less than perfect, so will be your positioning.

Finally, the way this is done really isn't so different from using a "light bar" as a reference.  It does provide more markers, but the possible downside is, again, the need to see the entire screen (if it's incapable of handling partial references.)     

It's definitely an interesting proof-of-concept, but I still see a number of hurdles which need to be overcome.  The extent to which these will, or can be, is the risk in buying into the idea.

He addressed the sitting position thing in his "how it works video" (Ile link it here now ime on a laptop)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/grcGpr_8W9Y" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But yeah its nothing new in theory, I said years ago that something like this could be done with a camera but would need someone with the brains to make it work and it looks like the guy has.
Also a interesting 3D concept.

I think anything that can make light guns relevant again is a good thing, hopefully bring them back without the need for VR.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2018, 12:01:11 pm »
Randy didn't think it up first, so it's crap.  Never change, arcade vendors.

 :applaud:

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2018, 12:42:01 pm »
Randy didn't think it up first, so it's crap.  Never change, arcade vendors.

Stay classy, Jimmy.  :cheers:

He addressed the sitting position thing in his "how it works video" (Ile link it here now ime on a laptop)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/grcGpr_8W9Y" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But yeah its nothing new in theory, I said years ago that something like this could be done with a camera but would need someone with the brains to make it work and it looks like the guy has.
Also a interesting 3D concept.

I think anything that can make light guns relevant again is a good thing, hopefully bring them back without the need for VR.

If he can get past the 6DOF calculations, it could be a good solution.  Obviously, it's possible, because that is what is used in VR controllers.  The difference is that there is more hardware involved in doing this well for VR, and in this case, it has to be extrapolated from geometrical changes of a 2D plane, and accuracy is limited by the resolution of the camera in relation to the distance from the display.  There's a lot of complex math going on there, and the current demos shown, don't demonstrate that less than ideal conditions can be handled with more accuracy than external reference points.  The issue with the lightbars is the relative distance and number of points, which if increased, tend to push you back further from the screen.

As for the 3D part, someone did this originally with the Wii controllers (light bar) so that isn't related specifically to this method. The TopGun method using 2 lightbars, having multiple reference points, works pretty well, but there's no reason to think that this method would work better, unless you are banking on this individual doing the math better, or using better hardware to do the calculations.

So in summary, the gains over other solutions, at least at this point, seem to be not needing to use light bars for the reference points, but needing to add the reference to the images being displayed.  This seems to be a bit of a wash.  Before I get too excited, and consider getting rid of my dedicated CRT lightgun-based rig, I would want to see some raw gameplay footage of Time Crisis, without visible crosshairs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 12:43:32 pm by RandyT »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2018, 12:43:08 pm »
Has anyone seen the update video on this?  I'm interested in thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcGpr_8W9Y

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2018, 12:49:47 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap so dont use them on my Mame cab I rather use my Aim Traks.

I am looking forward to seeing how this solution progresses, Ive decided to back him and give him a chance to do some good.

Ime not convinced its going to hit target but still we shall see.

Few ppl moaning about the price I noticed around but ATís are more than £100 and if this performs better than them then its £100 well spent imo.



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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2018, 12:56:14 pm »
You could just cut out the middle man and mail him a one way plane ticket to Tahiti.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2018, 01:05:51 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 01:07:45 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

The fact he can seemingly move around and hit what he pointed at is a good start to being better than the top gun!

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2018, 01:19:07 pm »
Quote
The TopGun method using 2 lightbars, having multiple reference points, works pretty well

Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

Works pretty well and works like crap are two different things. That is some interesting back pedaling Randy. :P

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2018, 01:21:15 pm »
The fact he can seemingly move around and hit what he pointed at is a good start to being better than the top gun!

I used one with HOD back in the day, without cursors, and could do so as well.  But it was very intolerant to less than ideal gun handling.  If you hold it the way this one is being shown in the videos, it worked well.

pbj

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2018, 01:23:02 pm »
He's done the same routine for 10+ years.  Anything he didn't personally design is crap.  Which, granted, his stuff has been quality in my personal experience so...

 :dunno

I'm still unsure as to the point of a kickstarter.  If he's already got a functional prototype that looks decent... why not make more?


Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2018, 01:26:57 pm »
These "inventors" always figure out the hard way that manufacturing a product is at least as difficult as coming up with a viable product design.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2018, 01:39:58 pm »
These "inventors" always figure out the hard way that manufacturing a product is at least as difficult as coming up with a viable product design.

Much, much more so.  I have a bench full of new products people here will likely never see, due to this constraint.  Knocking together a proof of concept rarely results in a product which people are willing to pay for, especially when mass production isn't viable.

The technology for making an excellent lightgun for any display, already exists.  People just wouldn't want to pay for it.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2018, 01:43:54 pm »
These "inventors" always figure out the hard way that manufacturing a product is at least as difficult as coming up with a viable product design.

Much, much more so.  I have a bench full of new products people here will likely never see, due to this constraint.  Knocking together a proof of concept rarely results in a product which people are willing to pay for, especially when mass production isn't viable.

The technology for making an excellent lightgun for any display, already exists.  People just wouldn't want to pay for it.

If the tech is a reasonable price will pay for it.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2018, 01:50:39 pm »
I want to hear more about this existing technology.  How much could this possibly cost?  $500?  People already pay nearly that much for AimTracks and then never use them.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2018, 01:56:29 pm »
The technology for making an excellent lightgun for any display, already exists.  People just wouldn't want to pay for it.

If the tech is a reasonable price will pay for it.

If that wasn't meant to be funny, you missed an opportunity :).

In mass production, you'd be looking at around $250 to $300, which isn't reasonable for a mass market item.  Niche market manufacturing would add quite a bit more to that figure.   Even though the technology exists, it has yet to be used for this purpose, so it's not something you are likely to see.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2018, 01:58:29 pm »
The technology for making an excellent lightgun for any display, already exists.  People just wouldn't want to pay for it.

If the tech is a reasonable price will pay for it.

If that wasn't meant to be funny, you missed an opportunity :).

In mass production, you'd be looking at around $250 to $300, which isn't reasonable for a mass market item.  Niche market manufacturing would add quite a bit more to that figure.   Even though the technology exists, it has yet to be used for this purpose, so it's not something you are likely to see.

Get that to around 150-200 and you prob in business.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2018, 04:09:06 pm »
There are also a lot of people in this hobby that clamor for products to be made and features to be included, while having no intention of buying it unless it's dirt cheap.

EDIT: Someone get on my idea about interweaving targeting reference frames on a high refresh rate monitor.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 04:10:37 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2018, 08:56:03 pm »
I have a CRT in my Mame cab and I for the life of me can't find a decent light gun for that... let alone one for a LCD.
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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2018, 04:07:10 am »
I have a CRT in my Mame cab and I for the life of me can't find a decent light gun for that... let alone one for a LCD.

PC based or console based?

On a side note hes done another video with Virtua Cop and no crosshairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhdEyPrKdc&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=i3IXm3PetH9B26RU-6

The border is more visible in this one but does not take away from the game I dont think, Hell you are only really going to notice if you look for it 99% people prob wont even notice it.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2018, 06:39:47 am »
Hi everyone

This is my Kickstarter and I've been encouraged to join the discussion.  I've been trying to avoid joining threads like this because it can be seen as self promotion and get the thread shut down.  I've joined this thread, firstly because I was encouraged to by a member but also this is a very knowledgable thread with some obviously smart people contributing and this type of feedback is incredibly useful and appreciated.  I'll focus on the technology discussion rather than trying to sell the product!

I'm going to attempt to answer some of the general questions in the thread:

1) Accuracy:  The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect.

2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration).  This removes 33%-50% of any lag seen because you don't need to wait for the display to update.  I only show the crosshair on the videos for people to follow what is happening and show the accuracy of the gun.  On my initial videos I didn't realise quite how laggy this looked.  I had the windows mouse animation speed set at around 75%.  Maxing this to 100% helped.  You can see now on my virtua cop video how good performance is in a real game.  The response time is less than 2 frames and would probably be less than 1 if a high speed camera was used which is obviously the plan in the future.

3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true!  I've obviously learnt from this so now have given more details and also try to show more the type of content people have suggested.  The feedback from places like here has been incredibly useful and I have taken it on board.

4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast.  I wouldn't put myself on the line trying to release a product that I didn't think was already awesome.  If I got the opportunity to do a public demo that would really help, I'm not managed to get any media interest yet although I burnt the first week having to redo all my content so I need to focus on that now.

5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge.  Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for.  Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible.

6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun.  The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective.  My innovation can bring back the ease of use (no calibration) and fun (line of sight) of the gameplay mechanism.  A border (worst case) is a small sacrifice for this, in my opinion of course!  This is why my grand plan is to bring back the Lightgun genre.

7) Distance to the TV: I've only just realised what a key feature this is in the last few days as I was unaware how big an issue this was on other technology.  So ideally the Lightgun needs to see 2 widths of the tv, so if you aim to the far left of the tv in the centre of your video frame, the right hand side of the tv is still in the frame BUT if you are closer and you chop the edge off the edge of the tv you still see a rectangle with what is left.  So you still know you are at the far side of the rectangle and therefore at the far left.  In reality this slightly lowers the horizontal accuracy.  However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy.  This would enable you to use the gun much closer because you only need to get just over a televisions width in the frame.  The sacrifice would be that it wouldn't work so well from angles at this distance but it doesn't sound like this would be a show stopper compared to the overall benefit.  If it continually updated the tv width when it sees the full frame then if you move position it should still keep its accuracy.  I would consider the accuracy as almost perfect (99%??) because there is guess work involved, rather than perfect when it sees the whole frame.  With other products once you can't see see some of the raw LED input you are stuck as you can't infer. 

8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns.  If the screen is a flat screen CRT it would definitely work.  If it was a very curved old style one I guess it would come to how rectangular the image was.  Probably be more restricted on your angle and you need to be head on.  However the technology can be adapted to do something else such as putting markers in the corners instead of a rectangle.  So yes the technology should work but unsure about my current software implementation.  Any photos of people's CRT with a full screen game on would assist the discussion.  Maybe warping the original border so that it is rectangular after it is output might do the trick.

Please ask any other questions you have and I'll do my best to answer, thank you all for taking the time to look at and feedback on my Lightgun technology. 

If you could post my project on any forum or groups it would be massively appreciated.  You don't have to instruct everyone to buy it but just raising it for interest and discussion like this thread would be great.

Thanks

Mr Lightgun





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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2018, 07:53:22 am »
If your margin is low you will fail. You cannot manufacture and sell a niche product for low margin.
If the price is too high you will fail. Everyone says they want a product until it is time to pony up the dough.

If you take Titchgamer's  money and run to Tahiti, I will hop on a plane and burn down your grass hut. I know how this Kickstarter thing works.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2018, 08:22:29 am »
Hi everyone

This is my Kickstarter and I've been encouraged to join the discussion.  I've been trying to avoid joining threads like this because it can be seen as self promotion and get the thread shut down.  I've joined this thread, firstly because I was encouraged to by a member but also this is a very knowledgable thread with some obviously smart people contributing and this type of feedback is incredibly useful and appreciated.  I'll focus on the technology discussion rather than trying to sell the product!

I'm going to attempt to answer some of the general questions in the thread:

1) Accuracy:  The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect.

2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration).  This removes 33%-50% of any lag seen because you don't need to wait for the display to update.  I only show the crosshair on the videos for people to follow what is happening and show the accuracy of the gun.  On my initial videos I didn't realise quite how laggy this looked.  I had the windows mouse animation speed set at around 75%.  Maxing this to 100% helped.  You can see now on my virtua cop video how good performance is in a real game.  The response time is less than 2 frames and would probably be less than 1 if a high speed camera was used which is obviously the plan in the future.

3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true!  I've obviously learnt from this so now have given more details and also try to show more the type of content people have suggested.  The feedback from places like here has been incredibly useful and I have taken it on board.

4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast.  I wouldn't put myself on the line trying to release a product that I didn't think was already awesome.  If I got the opportunity to do a public demo that would really help, I'm not managed to get any media interest yet although I burnt the first week having to redo all my content so I need to focus on that now.

5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge.  Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for.  Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible.

6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun.  The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective.  My innovation can bring back the ease of use (no calibration) and fun (line of sight) of the gameplay mechanism.  A border (worst case) is a small sacrifice for this, in my opinion of course!  This is why my grand plan is to bring back the Lightgun genre.

7) Distance to the TV: I've only just realised what a key feature this is in the last few days as I was unaware how big an issue this was on other technology.  So ideally the Lightgun needs to see 2 widths of the tv, so if you aim to the far left of the tv in the centre of your video frame, the right hand side of the tv is still in the frame BUT if you are closer and you chop the edge off the edge of the tv you still see a rectangle with what is left.  So you still know you are at the far side of the rectangle and therefore at the far left.  In reality this slightly lowers the horizontal accuracy.  However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy.  This would enable you to use the gun much closer because you only need to get just over a televisions width in the frame.  The sacrifice would be that it wouldn't work so well from angles at this distance but it doesn't sound like this would be a show stopper compared to the overall benefit.  If it continually updated the tv width when it sees the full frame then if you move position it should still keep its accuracy.  I would consider the accuracy as almost perfect (99%??) because there is guess work involved, rather than perfect when it sees the whole frame.  With other products once you can't see see some of the raw LED input you are stuck as you can't infer. 

8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns.  If the screen is a flat screen CRT it would definitely work.  If it was a very curved old style one I guess it would come to how rectangular the image was.  Probably be more restricted on your angle and you need to be head on.  However the technology can be adapted to do something else such as putting markers in the corners instead of a rectangle.  So yes the technology should work but unsure about my current software implementation.  Any photos of people's CRT with a full screen game on would assist the discussion.  Maybe warping the original border so that it is rectangular after it is output might do the trick.

Please ask any other questions you have and I'll do my best to answer, thank you all for taking the time to look at and feedback on my Lightgun technology. 

If you could post my project on any forum or groups it would be massively appreciated.  You don't have to instruct everyone to buy it but just raising it for interest and discussion like this thread would be great.

Thanks

Mr Lightgun

Well how about that, Very cool you found us and joined the discussion :)

If your margin is low you will fail. You cannot manufacture and sell a niche product for low margin.
If the price is too high you will fail. Everyone says they want a product until it is time to pony up the dough.

If you take Titchgamer's  money and run to Tahiti, I will hop on a plane and burn down your grass hut. I know how this Kickstarter thing works.

This made me LOL so hard, Thanks Mike ;)

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2018, 11:20:34 am »
Thanks for joining the discussion.  I have some questions/comments, but keep in mind that I own and shoot actual guns, am ex-military, have been playing lightgun games for as long as they have been a thing and own a dedicated 37" RGB CRT setup for Guncon games on PS2.  My bar is admittedly high.

1) Accuracy:  The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect.

I understand that accuracy could be as perfect as the hardware and methodology allows, but the demonstrations of your device are weak in the "typical use scenario" department.  Also, "perfect" as  in perfect, or perfect in relation to a GunCon?  Wiimote? ??  What is your reference for quality?  Do you, or have you owned and used an actual good CRT-based lightgun?  Do you know, and can you accurately express the limitations of your product against other products?  I.e. typical marketing due diligence. 

Quote
2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration).

Small lag, while important, isn't a showstopper, as long as the gun reliably fires in the location at which it is being aimed.  There are a lot of coarse human motor functions going on, which should give the hardware time to "get there" before the trigger is pulled.  As for calibration, how would you be able to deal with varying resolutions and possible image cropping without calibration of some sort?  I'm sure it's possible, but the question is specifically if you have taken this into consideration and accounted for it?  I understand that the on-screen frame can mitigate this, but what about cases where it cannot be used?   

Quote
3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true!

This is to be expected with any new product.  The difference is that you are soliciting funds for something which does not exist currently for sale.  There can be no "early adopters" which can generate positive "word of mouth" about the product.  At this point, it exists only as a prototype and a promise.  Skepticism with such things is the order of the day.  This means that you need to do all of the things a typical consumer might do with your product, and prove to investors (that is what they are) that what you are doing is real and effective in those cases. 

Quote
4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast.

It's a good sign that you have confidence in your invention.  It's of paramount importance that this be the case.  So my question to you is: if you are really confident in your claim that this device is a game changer (and it very well could be) why do you not believe in it strongly enough to finance it's development on your own?  Have you sought any IP protection?  Looked into a business loan?  Approached any videogame peripheral companies? If I had a game-changing, mass-marketable technology which blows everything else "out of the water", crowd-funding wouldn't be my first move, at least before filing a provisional patent and exploring it's mass marketability through established players in those markets.  Sans those actions, through KickStarter, you have given those same companies, with vastly more resources, a roadmap to to bring your product to market well before you can.

Quote
5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge.  Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for.  Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible.

This is understandable.  You need molds, and they alone have significant costs.  On the flip side, it may be unreasonable to expect investors to bear the entire risk of the project, without a demonstration by you that you personally have something significant to lose if it fails.  I don't know if it does, but if that figure includes a "paycheck" to you for the next year while you continue development, you might have a tough road ahead.

Quote
 
6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun.  The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective.

Your hypothesis is not incorrect.  If you need a cursor on the screen, it's not what it used to be.  My concern with this statement is your comparison to PS3 Move, rather than the true lightgun solution that is the GunCon II.  That is the bar against which you should be basing your performance comparisons, if your goal is to correct for the case in your hypothesis.  I have no doubt that it won't stack up, as it really can't, given the difference in the technology.  But "as good" under the conditions allowed by the different technology, would be an excellent start.  I.e.  your method makes it impossible to hold the gun 6" from the display, like the GunCon can, and track accurately, so that would be expected.  But in cases where the methodology you use can track as well, it should. 

Quote
7) Distance to the TV: However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy.

There's a bit of a fly in that ointment.  If the user changes proximity to the display while the image is incomplete, the reference size changes as well.  How much a step in either direction would affect accuracy is something you would need to test for.

Quote
8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns.

It's not that console guns are necessarily more advanced, it's that higher frequency displays, multiple resolutions, etc, are harder to deal with with, and honestly, the market really isn't that large for CRT lightguns.  You'll find much more interest here for a CRT solution than in the general gaming marketplace.


If nothing else, hopefully I have given you some food for thought.  But if you are looking for that thing which would be the most effective in turning the tide in your direction, some raw, unedited footage of you "kicking ass" for several rounds in TimeCrisis, Point Blank, etc., without on-screen cursors, would be it.  It would also be helpful if you honestly divulged the conditions and/or restrictions under which you operated to achieve this.  Also note that "I suck at lightgun games" wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing this.  If this is the case, you probably wouldn't know what constitutes a good lightgun. :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 12:42:59 pm by RandyT »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2018, 01:37:27 pm »
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this.  This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2018, 01:45:14 pm »
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this.  This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition.

I hope you aren't alluding to the Howler board.
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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2018, 01:52:48 pm »
Thanks for joining the discussion.  I have some questions/comments, but keep in mind that I own and shoot actual guns, am ex-military, have been playing lightgun games for as long as they have been a thing and own a dedicated 37" RGB CRT setup for Guncon games on PS2.  My bar is admittedly high.

1) Accuracy:  The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect.

I understand that accuracy could be as perfect as the hardware and methodology allows, but the demonstrations of your device are weak in the "typical use scenario" department.  Also, "perfect" as  in perfect, or perfect in relation to a GunCon?  Wiimote? ??  What is your reference for quality?  Do you, or have you owned and used an actual good CRT-based lightgun?  Do you know, and can you accurately express the limitations of your product against other products?  I.e. typical marketing due diligence. 

Quote
2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration).

Small lag, while important, isn't a showstopper, as long as the gun reliably fires in the location at which it is being aimed.  There are a lot of coarse human motor functions going on, which should give the hardware time to "get there" before the trigger is pulled.  As for calibration, how would you be able to deal with varying resolutions and possible image cropping without calibration of some sort?  I'm sure it's possible, but the question is specifically if you have taken this into consideration and accounted for it?  I understand that the on-screen frame can mitigate this, but what about cases where it cannot be used?   

Quote
3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true!

This is to be expected with any new product.  The difference is that you are soliciting funds for something which does not exist currently for sale.  There can be no "early adopters" which can generate positive "word of mouth" about the product.  At this point, it exists only as a prototype and a promise.  Skepticism with such things is the order of the day.  This means that you need to do all of the things a typical consumer might do with your product, and prove to investors (that is what they are) that what you are doing is real and effective in those cases. 

Quote
4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast.

It's a good sign that you have confidence in your invention.  It's of paramount importance that this be the case.  So my question to you is: if you are really confident in your claim that this device is a game changer (and it very well could be) why do you not believe in it strongly enough to finance it's development on your own?  Have you sought any IP protection?  Looked into a business loan?  Approached any videogame peripheral companies? If I had a game-changing, mass-marketable technology which blows everything else "out of the water", crowd-funding wouldn't be my first move, at least before filing a provisional patent and exploring it's mass marketability through established players in those markets.  Sans those actions, through KickStarter, you have given those same companies, with vastly more resources, a roadmap to to bring your product to market well before you can.

Quote
5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge.  Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for.  Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible.

This is understandable.  You need molds, and they alone have significant costs.  On the flip side, it may be unreasonable to expect investors to bear the entire risk of the project, without a demonstration by you that you personally have something significant to lose if it fails.  I don't know if it does, but if that figure includes a "paycheck" to you for the next year while you continue development, you might have a tough road ahead.

Quote
 
6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun.  The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective.

Your hypothesis is not incorrect.  If you need a cursor on the screen, it's not what it used to be.  My concern with this statement is your comparison to PS3 Move, rather than the true lightgun solution that is the GunCon II.  That is the bar against which you should be basing your performance comparisons, if your goal is to correct for the case in your hypothesis.  I have no doubt that it won't stack up, as it really can't, given the difference in the technology.  But "as good" under the conditions allowed by the different technology, would be an excellent start.  I.e.  your method makes it impossible to hold the gun 6" from the display, like the GunCon can, and track accurately, so that would be expected.  But in cases where the methodology you use can track as well, it should. 

Quote
7) Distance to the TV: However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy.

There's a bit of a fly in that ointment.  If the user changes proximity to the display while the image is incomplete, the reference size changes as well.  How much a step in either direction would affect accuracy is something you would need to test for.

Quote
8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns.

It's not that console guns are necessarily more advanced, it's that higher frequency displays, multiple resolutions, etc, are harder to deal with with, and honestly, the market really isn't that large for CRT lightguns.  You'll find much more interest here for a CRT solution than in the general gaming marketplace.


If nothing else, hopefully I have given you some food for thought.  But if you are looking for that thing which would be the most effective in turning the tide in your direction, some raw, unedited footage of you "kicking ass" for several rounds in TimeCrisis, Point Blank, etc., without on-screen cursors, would be it.  It would also be helpful if you honestly divulged the conditions and/or restrictions under which you operated to achieve this.  Also note that "I suck at lightgun games" wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing this.  If this is the case, you probably wouldn't know what constitutes a good lightgun. :)

Thank you taking the time to write such a large detailed post.  I'm going to respond to all your questions which seem entirely reasonable.

1) Accuracy: Yes point noted I should be careful using the term perfect.  What I meant is that all other LCD solutions infer the position so are having to guess and make approximations to predict the position.  Because the Sinden Lightgun reads its position directly against the television display it is basing its position on factual data every single reading with no assumptions.  This allows it to be as accurate as the hardware allows which I believe is already more accurate than you would realistically need in a game.  My definition of perfect would be when you look down the barrel of the gun that the crosshair is exactly in line with that.  In this context ignoring light bleed or any other issues I am unaware of I would consider a CRT lightgun of the later generation perfect.

2) Calibration: the gun currently works based on a rectangular outline, in general to start with if you can't add that it doesn't work.  Of course given more time I can add more cleverness to the software/technology to work in alternative circumstances but for now I'm happy to accept this as a negative of my product.  There are going to be very few circumstances you can't add a border to either an existing game or a brand new game.  Resolution is irrelevant to the concept as is image cropping as long as you put the border around the correct play area it is fine. 

4) I have already invested significant time and money into the project unfortunately I don't have the huge sums of money that I think the productionization needs.  My belief was that Kickstarter was perfect for this.  Every thread I read has people crying out for LCD Lightguns so I thought people would be happy to support the project.  The whole point of Kickstarter is that it gives you the guaranteed sales in advance which makes a lot more sense than a bank loan.

5) The risk of delivering 2000+ electrical products would already be absorbed by myself.  I would be liable for any shortfalls.  Kickstarter has no responsibility but the project owner has full legal responsibility.  There is no room in the budget for a pay cheque.  If there is any cash left over, the commitment was to focus on getting software drivers written for other operating systems.  I really don't think £250k will go as far as people think.

6) Yes, good point, if my goal is to bring back that experience people had on the CRT then that hardware should be the target.  The distraction is that people immediately post these LCD products as delivering everything people want so the conversation immediately goes in that direction.

7) Yes but as soon as you capture a complete frame again then it should be back on target.  Please remember that I outlined this on the fly as a way for the technology to resolve the issue.  Not a tested and proven solution / commitment.

8) My project is specifically focused on LCD because I consider CRT Lightgun technology as fit for purpose.  I don't really want to argue my case against a guncon because I think it does the job great, just not on an LCD.  I want people to play Lightgun games in their living room and I think this could mean new games get made which is my ultimate goal.

9) Unedited game footage of me kicking ass without cursors.......

Virtua Cop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhdEyPrKdc

Enjoy my friend, although kicking ass may be a stretch :-p

Appreciate the time and thought put into the suggestions.

Mr Lightgun

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2018, 02:00:50 pm »
In reference to Randy T's comments about accuracy, the old CRT Act Labs light guns claimed accuracy to within a few pixels.  (granted, pixel density was lower back then)
Nothing in my experience with them led me to doubt that.
I've heard the hit box on old arcade games was quite forgiving though, so it probably doesn't need to be that tight.

Here's some old video of me playing 3 feet away from a 32" CRT TV.
Notice that I move the gun all over the place.
Light Gun Games


Unfortunately I rid my rented house of CRTs (and CRT guns), not wanting to deal with them the next time I moved.
Then I ended up buying the house and not having to move anything anyway.   :angry:







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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2018, 02:09:41 pm »
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this.  This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition.

Thank you for the warning :( this is obviously a concern, hence my original vagueness but I felt I wasn't going to get anywhere if people couldn't believe in the technology.  Approaching 3rd parties instead felt just as risky.  They would no doubt want all the code and algorithms and then I would be even more exposed.

At least this way I have published it to the world as my invention and no matter what happens that is something I am very proud of and no one can take that away :-)

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2018, 02:24:47 pm »
In reference to Randy T's comments about accuracy, the old CRT Act Labs light guns claimed accuracy to within a few pixels.  (granted, pixel density was lower back then)
Nothing in my experience with them led me to doubt that.
I've heard the hit box on old arcade games was quite forgiving though, so it probably doesn't need to be that tight.

Here's some old video of me playing 3 feet away from a 32" CRT TV.
Notice that I move the gun all over the place.
Light Gun Games


Unfortunately I rid my rented house of CRTs (and CRT guns), not wanting to deal with them the next time I moved.
Then I ended up buying the house and not having to move anything anyway.   :angry:

This is super cool and exactly what I want people to be able to do but in their living room on their 50inch+ LCD television!  Interestingly your CRT output looks pretty rectangular to the camera which assuming there is nothing special about it should mean the Sinden Lightgun would work on CRTs like this well.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2018, 02:39:54 pm »
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this.  This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition.

I hope you aren't alluding to the Howler board.

I can name many examples.  It was freaking out of control in the pinball world. 


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2018, 02:47:10 pm »
Howler was what sprung to mind, man was the product a total piece of junk.  I'm gutting an America's army cab, so I'll have a "coveted" USB2gun for sale soon.
No matter one's station in life, the Dance of Death unites us all.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2018, 03:09:18 pm »
Here's some old video of me playing 3 feet away from a 32" CRT TV.
Notice that I move the gun all over the place.

Thanks for posting that.  This accentuates one of my concerns.  In my experience, your video shows a more natural gun handling and is in fairly sharp contrast to the way the gun in the Mr Lightgun's video is being used.  If I used the gun in the same manner with my old TopGun setup, I don't know that the results would be different.  This constraint was precisely why I retired the setup.  It just wasn't fun having to be conscious of my position and movements, and in no way reflects how one would actually shoot a pistol.

Mr Lightgun, if this isn't a requirement for the accuracy of your setup, the way you are demonstrating it probably isn't going to do you any favors.  The accuracy looks very good, so I hope you can show something a little more along the lines of Badmouth's video.  I think he just gave you the bar you need to strive for. 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 04:16:47 pm by RandyT »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2018, 03:41:17 pm »
A go pro mounted in line with the sights to show the bullets hitting where the sights are aimed would go a long way.
Aim-Traks get farther off toward the corners and edges, so make a point of showing lots of shots to those areas.
Uncut series of shots moving all over the place of course.

I don't have the time right now, but will post more thoughts later tonight or tomorrow night.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2018, 03:55:15 pm »
I think what they are getting at Mr Lightgun is could you do some test videos while you are moving around constantly.

Having done this myself and tried to video it I know how damn hard it is!

However what I did was put different coloured tape on the front and rear sights so you can differentiate then on a black windows desktop aim the white mouse around the extremes of the screen while moving around left to right etc.

Do that and it should pretty much cover any doubts over its tracking.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2018, 04:51:20 pm »
I have a CRT in my Mame cab and I for the life of me can't find a decent light gun for that... let alone one for a LCD.

PC based or console based?

On a side note hes done another video with Virtua Cop and no crosshairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhdEyPrKdc&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=i3IXm3PetH9B26RU-6

The border is more visible in this one but does not take away from the game I dont think, Hell you are only really going to notice if you look for it 99% people prob wont even notice it.

PC - Mame emulated. The last guns I am aware of where the Act Labs guns (Which have been discontinued). I assume this gun will be for emulation as well. All the fuss over LCD to me is crazy since there is no current option for CRT's.
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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2018, 04:59:21 pm »
I have a CRT in my Mame cab and I for the life of me can't find a decent light gun for that... let alone one for a LCD.

PC based or console based?

On a side note hes done another video with Virtua Cop and no crosshairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkhdEyPrKdc&feature=push-sd&attr_tag=i3IXm3PetH9B26RU-6

The border is more visible in this one but does not take away from the game I dont think, Hell you are only really going to notice if you look for it 99% people prob wont even notice it.

PC - Mame emulated. The last guns I am aware of where the Act Labs guns (Which have been discontinued). I assume this gun will be for emulation as well. All the fuss over LCD to me is crazy since there is no current option for CRT's.


Yeah PC based is a bit of a downer atm.
But by the sounds Mr Lightguns solution may change that! (Heres hoping...)

In the meantime have you tried the guncon 2 to pc?

Consoles on CRT are still very much supported though.

Ive just finished modifying this justifier to work as a P2 gun on my mega cd.



Hope it works now....

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2018, 06:36:09 pm »
The reason the Sinden Lightgun is being held like that is because I am using the button on the left hand side to reload.

I've shot a new video with a more natural relaxed style:

House Of The Dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDWp7MMnus





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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2018, 06:56:36 pm »
The reason the Sinden Lightgun is being held like that is because I am using the button on the left hand side to reload.

I've shot a new video with a more natural relaxed style:

House Of The Dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDWp7MMnus

Nice wave at the end there  :lol :lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2018, 07:13:02 pm »
Just tested out my mod'd justifier, Works great!

Dual wielding justifiers playing lethal enforcers!!

Awhhhh yeah :D

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2018, 08:03:56 pm »
The reason the Sinden Lightgun is being held like that is because I am using the button on the left hand side to reload.

I've shot a new video with a more natural relaxed style:

House Of The Dead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDWp7MMnus

It looks great! I wish you luck!
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2018, 09:30:15 pm »
This is pretty neat. I had a similar idea a couple months ago, but I have enough projects on my plate and knew I wouldn't have time to implement it any time soon. Here's the rundown on my version of the same idea:

Instead of using a camera, it uses one IR LED at each corner of the monitor and the PixArt sensor harvested from a Wiimote. The PixArt sensor can track up to 4 points at a resolution of 1024x768 (inferred from 128x96 subpixels as the sensor moves) at a rate up to 100hz. The sensor very conveniently outputs the coordinates of the four points in a way that can be easily read by an Arduino.

Here are some references:

http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2008/09/working-with-pixart-camera-directly.html

http://www.stephenhobley.com/blog/2009/02/22/pixart-sensor-and-arduino/

http://www.stephenhobley.com/blog/2011/02/26/midi-camera-gesture-control-for-ableton-and-just-about-anything-else/

After this, the concept I assume is exactly the same. A four sided polygon is made of the four points and then a calculation is performed to determine where the gun is pointed based on the deviations of the points from the center of the sensor.

I found a 1995 paper that has already solved the math problem of converting a 2D image of a rectangle and determining the 3D position of the camera here:

http://www.bmva.org/bmvc/1995/bmvc-95-017.pdf

My plan was to find the 3D position of the camera, then simply calculate rotating the camera back to front facing the rectangle and then seeing where the point it was aimed on the rectangle.

After this, maybe if the distance of the gun was a problem (the gun would have to see all four points to work), I was thinking a lens could be placed on the gun to allow you to stand closer to the screen. The lens distortion could be removed using another algorithm, like this:

http://vassg.hu/pdf/vass_gg_2003_lo.pdf

A gun made like this would only have to be calibrated once: to compensate for the offset of the IR LEDs from the corners of the screen. After that, it wouldn't matter if you were close or far from the screen, standing much higher or lower from where the gun was originally calibrated, etc.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:49:02 pm by XXVII »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2018, 09:44:45 pm »
Damn, son, looks like you did it.  Sell out to Randy.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2018, 10:28:37 pm »

  If you can beat level 6 on "Shooting Gallery"  for the Sega Master System,  without a Cursor on... and at standard
arcade distance from the screen...  they Id say you probably have a sure-fire winner.


  This particular shooting game,  requires FAR more precision than a Cookie Cutter, pay to continue, quarter-muncher... like HOTD.


 In fact... out of all the Lightgun games Ive played... from Arcade to Console,   this is pretty much my go-to.

 You could say that its similar to Namco's Point Blank series...  But PB came out much later,  and was probably modeled after
SG.   The thing is... while SG has its limits... its still a more fun and challenging game,  than any/all  of the PB games.

 It has a better difficulty ramp,  and better game balance overall.   Many of PB levels are too quick... and the difficulty is all over
the map.   Also.. PB's  system has too much Down-Time pausing,  between rounds.   Where as with SG... you have enough time
to see your stats... and if you passed / failed... and then its go-time.

 I believe I heard there is 24 levels to SG... but I never was able to defeat it.  I cant recall,  but I know I got past the
TVs,  and I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd iteration of the Spaceships... which,  if you missing their shield drop,  it was
pretty much over with.

 The game has some patterns... but similar to Capcom's Ghouls and Ghosts... there are often a few different variances to these
patterns,  per each level.    There are also things like Balloons... that if you miss dead-center.. the balloon will sway away from
your shot... as if the wind force pushed it.  That makes it even worse than missing a typical target... because you then have to
calculate for the error,  and try to re-catch it,  before it trails off the screen.

 Even if you post a decent attempt on this game,  I think it will still be a more impressive display of the true abilities of
the aiming and accuracy.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2018, 11:43:56 pm »
Yeah, I agree.  That game always stood out in my mind as very good light gun game.  Give that one a shot in your next video.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2018, 02:46:23 am »
Yeah shooting gallery is a quality game :)

Still love point blank more though!

That single shot feather was always a good test of accuracy lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2018, 02:53:54 am »
Yeah, I agree.  That game always stood out in my mind as very good light gun game.  Give that one a shot in your next video.

not to hijack this thread but what emu are you using for master system lightgun games?  i canít for the life of me get a lightgun to work in mega fusion.

back to thread, i think the kickstarter goal is way to high.  i hope it gets funded but all or nothing for 250k seems unattainable.  but i will back...

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2018, 03:01:23 am »


Instead of using a camera, it uses one IR LED at each corner of the monitor and the PixArt sensor harvested from a Wiimote. The PixArt sensor can track up to 4 points at a resolution of 1024x768 (inferred from 128x96 subpixels as the sensor moves) at a rate up to 100hz. The sensor very conveniently outputs the coordinates of the four points in a way that can be easily read by an Arduino.



The Aimtrak can do that, but using 4 points requires a wide-angle lens. The current Aimtrak design uses light point size information as well as location, which the Wii does not, so it performs to a "no crosshair" accuracy without 4 points.

I do have a version of the Aimtrak which has been supplied to a couple of designers of large-scale gaming installations and it uses 4 points and maths which was provided by a university maths department in the UK. This version is used when players are running around a room. Its available as a full design package with licensing.

I have also played with image recognition using the Pixy CMUcam5 sensor. But the downsides of this I found were as follows:

A degree of calibration still needed as the gun needs to be taught about the reference image.
No IR filter can be used so the gun is sensitive to all light.
Unable to achieve the 5 millisecond update rate of the Aimtrak
Not able to do all processing in-gun. One of the design points about the Aimtrak was to have it appear as a standard USB mouse and it sends fully corrected X-Y data such that no software needs to be running on the host and not needed for any function such as calibration.

Of course thats not to say that these issues cant be solved but I believe an IR system is hard to beat especially in a situation where some installation (ie fitting an IR bar or LEDs) is acceptable, which is the case in most arcade gaming situations.

I will state at this point that I have no plans to pursue image recognition technology any further than I have already done. The Aimtrak will continue to use IR technology until such time, if any, it becomes end of life.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2018, 03:10:17 am »
If I remember right the Top Gun used 3 IR LED's didnt it?

Not that it worked if it did because as previously mentioned they are crap :P

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2018, 05:33:07 am »
the topgun (1) : i do not exactly know how many ir led dots it uses for tracking. probably 5? most likely 4. Both bars have 3 "slots" where leds can be housed. one left, one in the middle, one right. Bar one has one left and one in the middle, and bar 2 has one left and one right. The topgun also uses a pixart sensor (or something pretty similar to a pixart sensor) which can most likely track 4 ir points. It also has a PnP solver (probably in the driver), which makes the gun hardware pretty cheap (a usb chip, some quartz for the sensor, the sensor... & everything needed to transfer the raw sensor data (most likely the 8 byte position values of the 4 strongest dots) to the computer).
The topgun has pretty damn good accuracy, BUT ONLY if you understand how to calibrate it. People calibrate it with the laserpointer and afterwards complain that the cursor is off. pfff.
One thing i hate about these topguns is, however, that the viewing angle of the sensor is so small, you can `t go near the screen without loosing tracking. You can place a wide angle lens infront of the gun, which slightly reduces accuracy; but can reduce the distance from the screen significantly.
thet0ast3r

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2018, 05:43:59 am »
the topgun (1) : i do not exactly know how many ir led dots it uses for tracking. probably 5? most likely 4. Both bars have 3 "slots" where leds can be housed. one left, one in the middle, one right. Bar one has one left and one in the middle, and bar 2 has one left and one right. The topgun also uses a pixart sensor (or something pretty similar to a pixart sensor) which can most likely track 4 ir points. It also has a PnP solver (probably in the driver), which makes the gun hardware pretty cheap (a usb chip, some quartz for the sensor, the sensor... & everything needed to transfer the raw sensor data (most likely the 8 byte position values of the 4 strongest dots) to the computer).
The topgun has pretty damn good accuracy, BUT ONLY if you understand how to calibrate it. People calibrate it with the laserpointer and afterwards complain that the cursor is off. pfff.
One thing i hate about these topguns is, however, that the viewing angle of the sensor is so small, you can `t go near the screen without loosing tracking. You can place a wide angle lens infront of the gun, which slightly reduces accuracy; but can reduce the distance from the screen significantly.

They were only accurate if you stayed fixed in exactly the same spot if you moved any direction they went out of calibration.
Also they needed calibrating every single time you used them which was no good for cabinet use.

As for the laser that was a stupid idea from the get go! The damn thing would just reflect back in your eyes!

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2018, 06:03:12 am »
No, i cannot agree with you on this. They stay pretty damn accurate even if you move around in the room; given you did everything correctly. (which there is no manual for) the lights of the sensor bars have to be in the exact same plane as the screen is.
While calibrating, you have to be VERY accurate. My topgun 2`s (i have 2 of them) are both accurate up to the tracking resolution (about 4 mm on an 21" 16:9 monitor). After i calibrated the gun correctly (took some tries) i tried EVERYTHING. i moved around the room, tried extreme angles, Turned the gun upside down... and i couldn`t get the accuracy to worse than at most 10mm off.
Maybe there`s a difference between the original topgun and the topgun 2 in terms of accuracy? 
thet0ast3r

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2018, 06:08:58 am »
I have the top gun 2, its sat in the loft.
10mm is alot of drift for a light gun game, But my experiences with it was getting closer to 25mm of accuracy loss which is why it ended up in the loft!

I liked the design of the gun looking like a beretta but that was about all the praise I have for it tbh.

My aim traks are far superior to it and never need re calibrating as long as you are roughly in the same location which is easy for me as theirs a wall I have my back to LOL.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2018, 06:44:18 am »
@Tichgamer: im gonna shoot a video sometime, demonstrating the accuracy of the lcd topgun. (as accurate as i can calibrate it)

Why i don`t like the aimtraks:

I have 4 wiimotes, loved to play wii games. I hooked them all up to my pc reading the sensor data. Turns out that newer/fake wiimotes have a sensor that can only track 2 instead of 4 points. -> cheaper hardware. The cheaper, new sensor is the one used in aimtracks. I don`t like the narrow viewing angle of these sensors (sometimes i wanna be very close to the screen, like 20cm away on a 20" monitor) , and i don`t like how they get horribly inaccurate if you move from side to side, when you hold them sideways it`s a whole other story...(not a lot of people do that, tho).
Simply put: I don`t really wanna support ultimarc by giving them 50 dollars for the module alone that costs at most 5$ in production... i can get a fake wiimote with the same sensor & bluetooth capability for 10 $ including shipping.
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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2018, 07:28:52 am »
My AT's stay accurate if I move a few feet either side no problem at all, Cant say I have ever tried shooting them sideways though so cant comment on that LOL

As for playing 20cm from the screen, why they hell would you do that? You will get square eyes  :lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2018, 07:54:52 am »
20 cm away? Stop playing light gun games. You are doing it wrong.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2018, 08:19:36 am »
I refuse to kickstart anything, Ive had zero return on investment on anything I've backed. Once you have an actual finished product up for sale I'll probably snag one. Shooting Gallery is phenomenal for being a master system game, but its no Point Blank.
No matter one's station in life, the Dance of Death unites us all.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2018, 11:51:31 am »
The cheaper, new sensor is the one used in aimtracks.

Incorrect. Furthermore the Aimtrak uses another set of parameters for operation which the Wiimote does not. I alluded to this in an earlier post.

I can elaborate on this via PM if you wish as this thread is not about the Aimtrak.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2018, 11:53:56 am »
Howler was what sprung to mind, man was the product a total piece of junk.  I'm gutting an America's army cab, so I'll have a "coveted" USB2gun for sale soon.

Dibs?  Dibs.

I refuse to kickstart anything, Ive had zero return on investment on anything I've backed. Once you have an actual finished product up for sale I'll probably snag one. Shooting Gallery is phenomenal for being a master system game, but its no Point Blank.

Fact fact and moar fact. Also, unless you can play point blank within a foot of the screen while furiously pulling the trigger using the old straight-finger-bump-stock method whilst yelling the sinden gun won't be for me.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2018, 01:05:14 pm »
I'll make the same tired point I always make in these threads, but I've found that the light gun games that are designed for the magic wand style guns are quite fun.  There's several good ones native to the Wii, and no annoying white flash.  Not sure that there's a better way to play Big Buck Hunter at home short of the actual arcade hardware.

But, hey, you want to kludge a solution to play some old ass 90s shooting game nobody cares about...

 :dunno

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2018, 01:59:09 pm »
old ass 90s shooting game nobody cares about...

Heretic.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2018, 07:44:39 am »
Never thought about doing lightgun games on a SNES mini but hell why not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnbDnOFcTlM&feature=push-u&attr_tag=dJ-ZGjkicJLlODfE-6

Mr Lightgun, Fancy getting it going with a Rpi? :p

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2018, 10:28:20 am »
Not looking good for funding -- 12 days left and they've made it to 1% of the goal.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2018, 10:31:50 am »
Not looking good for funding -- 12 days left and they've made it to 1% of the goal.

Yeah not looking hopeful!

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2018, 10:38:44 am »
Not looking good for funding -- 12 days left and they've made it to 1% of the goal.

Yeah not looking hopeful!

Since he's got it working with the Mini's perhaps he should contact Nintendo and see if they'd buy the concept for the next Mini release that they could do as a lightgun game system - since the have the funding to develop it and a few games that could be released on it as well.

I know I'd be willing to pay the $60 - $80 price point for a retro lightgun Mini - if they made the lightgun look like the old Zapper and it came with a few of the old Nintendo lightgun games to play on an LCD TV/Monitor.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 10:41:33 am by JDFan »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2018, 11:43:59 am »
Not looking good for funding -- 12 days left and they've made it to 1% of the goal.

Yeah not looking hopeful!

Since he's got it working with the Mini's perhaps he should contact Nintendo and see if they'd buy the concept for the next Mini release that they could do as a lightgun game system - since the have the funding to develop it and a few games that could be released on it as well.

I know I'd be willing to pay the $60 - $80 price point for a retro lightgun Mini - if they made the lightgun look like the old Zapper and it came with a few of the old Nintendo lightgun games to play on an LCD TV/Monitor.


Trouble is going that route it would be looked into Nintendo.

The beauty of his system is it could theoretically work with anything so broader market and gives rise to the prospect of new games.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2018, 12:00:17 pm »

Since he's got it working with the Mini's perhaps he should contact Nintendo and see if they'd buy the concept for the next Mini release that they could do as a lightgun game system - since the have the funding to develop it and a few games that could be released on it as well.

I know I'd be willing to pay the $60 - $80 price point for a retro lightgun Mini - if they made the lightgun look like the old Zapper and it came with a few of the old Nintendo lightgun games to play on an LCD TV/Monitor.


Trouble is going that route it would be looked into Nintendo.

The beauty of his system is it could theoretically work with anything so broader market and gives rise to the prospect of new games.

I don't know what you guys are excited about.  It requires a PC to be connected between the light gun and Nintendo Mini.
Might as well just use the PC.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2018, 12:05:18 pm »
I am just bummed out that the guy hasn't raised enough money for his escape to Tahiti.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2018, 12:11:22 pm »
Trouble is going that route it would be looked into Nintendo.

The beauty of his system is it could theoretically work with anything so broader market and gives rise to the prospect of new games.

Yes but if it doesn't get funded and is never released it doesn't work with anything including the nintendo devices - Better to be tied to a single company for a few years than never released !

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2018, 12:12:19 pm »
I don't know what you guys are excited about.  It requires a PC to be connected between the light gun and Nintendo Mini.
Might as well just use the PC.

At 2:10 of the video he explains that with the proper driver it could be connected directly to the mini which would also give better performance and remove the need for the PC..
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:16:24 pm by JDFan »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2018, 12:20:01 pm »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2018, 12:50:39 pm »
I don't know what you guys are excited about.  It requires a PC to be connected between the light gun and Nintendo Mini.
Might as well just use the PC.

At 2:10 of the video he explains that with the proper driver it could be connected directly to the mini which would also give better performance and remove the need for the PC..

Beat me to it lol

Getting it going on a PI would be cool.

Just think of the possibilities of that lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #100 on: July 02, 2018, 01:15:18 pm »
Yeah. Then you could play crappily emulated light gun games to go with the crappily emulated regular games.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2018, 03:46:11 pm »
Yeah. Then you could play crappily emulated light gun games to go with the crappily emulated regular games.

They aint that bad Mike.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2018, 12:54:25 pm »
i have had a few email exchanges with him and he seems legit to me.

i used to work for a very large video game publisher and offered to reach out to some folks that i still stay in contact with.  when i asked him about his prototype, if he felt it was ready for a demo, he said all he needs is a tv with hdmi.

so iím going to call legit on his product.  the goal is way too high and i will be offering my manufacturing experience to him.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2018, 02:07:47 pm »
i have had a few email exchanges with him and he seems legit to me.

i used to work for a very large video game publisher and offered to reach out to some folks that i still stay in contact with.  when i asked him about his prototype, if he felt it was ready for a demo, he said all he needs is a tv with hdmi.

so iím going to call legit on his product.  the goal is way too high and i will be offering my manufacturing experience to him.

Thats awesome Tony.

Ive sent him a few emails also and he seems a decent bloke.

Really hope he can fullfill his dream but 250k is a awfull high target for such a small niche market.

Theres few of us who love lightgun games and even fewer who would risk a kickstarter for one sadly.

Also despite great potential people wont see it or care until its released mainstream as a official accessory.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2018, 03:15:44 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't all of these different Zapper gimmicks and workarounds be unnecessary if we could just get a LCD or other new display technology with the same response time as old CRTs?

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2018, 03:37:43 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't all of these different Zapper gimmicks and workarounds be unnecessary if we could just get a LCD or other new display technology with the same response time as old CRTs?

Ok, you're wrong.

The LCD would have to draw the white flash image top to bottom, left to right, like an old CRT.
The guns wouldn't track so they wouldn't work on positional gun games. 
The position would only be known when the trigger was pulled.
It would be an interesting exercise, but in modern times I'd rather not have the white flash.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2018, 03:52:35 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't all of these different Zapper gimmicks and workarounds be unnecessary if we could just get a LCD or other new display technology with the same response time as old CRTs?

Ok, you're wrong.

The LCD would have to draw the white flash image top to bottom, left to right, like an old CRT.
The guns wouldn't track so they wouldn't work on positional gun games. 
The position would only be known when the trigger was pulled.
It would be an interesting exercise, but in modern times I'd rather not have the white flash.


The NES Zapper merely looked for, on trigger pull:

- black screen (anti-cheat frame)

- white box (the target you're shooting at)


They didn't use the electron beam scanning technique that the Super Scope did afaik. And the white flash is done by the game, there's no getting rid of it.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2018, 06:32:01 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't all of these different Zapper gimmicks and workarounds be unnecessary if we could just get a LCD or other new display technology with the same response time as old CRTs?

Ok, you're wrong.

The LCD would have to draw the white flash image top to bottom, left to right, like an old CRT.
The guns wouldn't track so they wouldn't work on positional gun games. 
The position would only be known when the trigger was pulled.
It would be an interesting exercise, but in modern times I'd rather not have the white flash.


The NES Zapper merely looked for, on trigger pull:

- black screen (anti-cheat frame)

- white box (the target you're shooting at)


They didn't use the electron beam scanning technique that the Super Scope did afaik. And the white flash is done by the game, there's no getting rid of it.

Thats how the zapper worked but pretty much every lightgun after that used the CRT scan lines.

I still stand by the Zapper was the most accurate lightgun I have ever used, The problem being that you have no multi hit detection capability's for differentiating between a body shot and a head shot for instance.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #108 on: July 05, 2018, 09:52:25 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't all of these different Zapper gimmicks and workarounds be unnecessary if we could just get a LCD or other new display technology with the same response time as old CRTs?

At standard VGA resolutions, the same trick on an LCD, as used on CRTs, would need to have a refresh rate of over 300,000 frames per second.  An alternative method could allow 5 pixel accuracy with a refresh rate of "only" 960 fps with simple hardware or 480fps with more complicated hardware, but would only track when the trigger is pulled.  Still much faster than LCD TVs can manage. 

I.e. not gonna happen any time soon. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 10:03:51 am by RandyT »

ghibu

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2018, 02:39:33 pm »
Hi,
Allright everybody!
Nice project.

And did u heard about that?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/venturebeat.com/2018/06/07/mars-is-a-pdps-light-gun-for-couch-players/amp/
Someone could explain the difference between these camera technology?
 :)

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #110 on: July 30, 2018, 12:35:17 pm »
Very interesting.  From the YT video, there appears to be a camera pointed at the screen, and the wireless gun looks to be pulsing an IR laser.  My guess from the limited information available, is that the camera would need to be a fairly specific distance from the screen and calibrated to it's borders.  It would then pick up the laser reflected from, or scattered by the screen to map out the shot placement.  Being IR, the actual imagery from the display shouldn't interfere.  Seems like a simple and effective approach, but may not work with all types of TV/monitors.  The external camera would also limit the types of installations it is suited for. 

But if it works well, it could be a great solution for those with projectors, and I'll certainly be keeping my eye on it.  I've always dreamed of being able to use an accurate light gun with life-sized targets.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:06:27 pm by RandyT »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #111 on: July 30, 2018, 12:37:50 pm »
Playing a lightgun game on a projector would be fricking amazing!

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #112 on: July 30, 2018, 12:42:50 pm »
Pretty cool to see all these new options coming soon.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #113 on: July 30, 2018, 12:49:44 pm »
Pretty cool to see all these new options coming soon.

I hope they come soon!

Seems to be more and more games landing by the month.

I got elevator action going yesterday!

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #114 on: July 30, 2018, 09:32:05 pm »
Very interesting.  From the YT video, there appears to be a camera pointed at the screen, and the wireless gun looks to be pulsing an IR laser.  My guess from the limited information available, is that the camera would need to be a fairly specific distance from the screen and calibrated to it's borders.  It would then pick up the laser reflected from, or scattered by the screen to map out the shot placement.  Being IR, the actual imagery from the display shouldn't interfere.  Seems like a simple and effective approach, but may not work with all types of TV/monitors.  The external camera would also limit the types of installations it is suited for. 

But if it works well, it could be a great solution for those with projectors, and I'll certainly be keeping my eye on it.  I've always dreamed of being able to use an accurate light gun with life-sized targets.

Well now that's interesting.  I've been messing with this basic idea for a while now both as a shooting range simulator and for shooting games.  An open source program called ShootOff works pretty well with a webcam with both visible and IR lasers.  Getting a webcam without an IR filter is a pain but possible.  ShootOff has it's own shooting range simulator and a mode called shot to click that just passes a mouse click through.  Unfortunately shot to click has not worked in MAME or any other emulator I've tried.  Pretty much just works with browser based games.

Another approach I'm trying is another program called Wiimote Whiteboard.  This uses a Wiimote as the IR camera for instructors to "write" on a projector screen with a "pen" that has an IR LED at the tip.  This program can also produce a mouse click which is all I need.  A 10mw IR laser works in place of the LED on a projector screen.  (be an adult, be careful, don't point IR lasers at eyes, pets, mirrors, bla, bla, bla.)  This program also won't work with any emulator I've tried.  But works well with most standard Windows programs and browsers.  It is also finicky about connecting to a PC - Bluetooth only - blech. 

This is all for a projector screen setup only so kind of limited in its' appeal here maybe.

  
 

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