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Author Topic: A new lightgun?  (Read 5375 times)

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Titchgamer

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A new lightgun?
« on: June 15, 2018, 09:02:59 pm »
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sindenlightgun/sinden-lightgun

What do you all think?
My interest has peeked as ime a big lover of lightgun games but would like more info on how this works.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 09:15:45 pm »
It's really simple. A bunch of goofs give this guy money. He posts pics and videos of his "progress".
After he collects enough money he stops communication and flies to Aruba with all of his "investment" money.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 09:51:36 pm »
It's really simple. A bunch of goofs give this guy money. He posts pics and videos of his "progress".
After he collects enough money he stops communication and flies to Aruba with all of his "investment" money.

Well due to the lack of info thats kind of my concern lol

BadMouth

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 10:27:12 pm »
I really want this to be true, but the refusal to give any inkling of how it works is enough to keep me from backing.

The demo video doesn't really show anything.  The short part that shows the gun shows it being held stationary and pivoting like current IR guns require.
It is also still fairly far from the screen.  The rest of the video might as well be played with a mouse.  It shows nothing.

I don't think it's impossible.  I've just seen too much vaporware in this hobby to get to excited.


EDIT: save a click



Quote
So how does it work??? Well I'm keeping that under wraps at the moment as I want to make sure that all my Kickstarter backers are the first to get to play with the new technology.

Quote
Some software may require tweaking to get working.  You may need to adjust your display settings, Sinden Lightgun settings or the actual video content that is outputted.  Most major emulators such as Mame are fully compatible as it is so easy to change settings.  Some software may not be compatible.  I can't clarify this more without revealing more detail how the Sinden Lightgun works.  Once the software is running you can get perfect functionality.  Please see my videos for some examples of games I have been playing.
The Sinden Lightgun does not like bright direct sunlight shining on the television as this can impact performance.

better video showing it moving around more:

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:37:40 pm by BadMouth »

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 10:37:34 pm »
Yeah I saw those comments to, Have been lieing in bed thinking about it LOL

Ian

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 11:45:20 pm »
My concern is that he is "playing" some games that are not lightgun games... like Star Wars arcade.  :dizzy:
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 12:17:53 am »
Meh Ill believe it when I can buy it.


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2018, 12:13:37 am »
Id be willing to bet hes just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

Titchgamer

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A new lightgun?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 02:50:35 am »
Id be willing to bet hes just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 05:25:58 am »
You are wasting your time speculating on this. There is roughly a 100 percent chance that everything he says is a lie designed to collect as much money as he can before people figure him out. If by some miracle it is not a scam, you can just buy one once production starts.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 07:20:58 am »
My interest has peeked as ime a big lover of lightgun games but would like more info on how this works.

Piqued , not peaked or peaked.  >:D
I dont believe in kickstarting or pre-ordering from unknowns. There too many undelivered promises and kickstarter give less than zero fox.  Remember that 90s racing game that was supposed to come out like 2+ years ago?
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Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 07:50:39 am »
I wont be contributing, I want more info and will wait for a final product.

If its real and he succeeds (and I truely hope it does!) I will wait for the wireless one :p

BadMouth

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 08:54:25 am »
I can't believe nobody has bugged him about 2 player use.

Id be willing to bet hes just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

He says you may have to adjust your display settings, so I imagine it's camera based.
Judging from the distance and screen size in the video, I'd guess the entire screen has to be visible to the camera.       
I vaguely recall there was an LCD arcade gun system at some point that could be hacked to work with a PC, but you had to make the picture look washed out to get it to work on games other than the original one it was designed for.

I doubt he went this route, but with the new high refresh rate monitors you could probably insert frames the camera could use to figure out where it's pointed.

I've always thought a laser pointer solution would be pretty neat.  Some type of overlay or camera near the screen that could tell the position of a laser dot.  Then it wouldn't matter where the user was standing or what angle they were at.


$332,073 goal and no follow ups or updates so far.
There is no way he's going to make it anyway.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 09:12:35 am »
Primarily plays positional gun games and has crosshairs enabled on Point Blank showing that hes walking the gun onto the target. Hes not aiming and shooting, hes using an air mouse. No doubt. You can tell by the way he holds it as well.

Even if its not vapor, its still garbage.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2018, 09:49:18 am »
I can't believe nobody has bugged him about 2 player use.

Id be willing to bet hes just using the tilt sensor and moving like a mouse.

I wondered that myself.
But that would need calibrating constantly.
I think its still a optical system as he says its affected by bright light.

He says you may have to adjust your display settings, so I imagine it's camera based.
Judging from the distance and screen size in the video, I'd guess the entire screen has to be visible to the camera.       
I vaguely recall there was an LCD arcade gun system at some point that could be hacked to work with a PC, but you had to make the picture look washed out to get it to work on games other than the original one it was designed for.

I doubt he went this route, but with the new high refresh rate monitors you could probably insert frames the camera could use to figure out where it's pointed.

I've always thought a laser pointer solution would be pretty neat.  Some type of overlay or camera near the screen that could tell the position of a laser dot.  Then it wouldn't matter where the user was standing or what angle they were at.


$332,073 goal and no follow ups or updates so far.
There is no way he's going to make it anyway.

Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

As stupid as it sounds the best and most accurate light gun I have ever used is the NES zapper!

Ime amazed nobody has used a slightly modified version of that with a higher frame rate so you dont see the white block.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 10:16:07 am »
Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

Your Aim-Traks (and all other IR guns) are cameras. 
The camera sees the IR LEDs in the "sensor bar" and bases position of that.
The "sensor bar" is nothing more than some LEDs lit up as reference points for the camera to use.
People have successfully used candles in place of the "sensor bar" for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and giggles.
The Sega arcade systems are more accurate because they have IR LEDs all around the screen, therefore more points of reference for more accurate positioning.

If there is anything to this guys solution, I'd asssume it's a camera using the output of the screen rather than IR LEDs for reference.
In the videos, it doesn't appear to work any better than an IR gun though. 

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2018, 10:52:50 am »
Yeah camera is certainly possible but I would guess unreliable? Never really seen that done but would be interested to.

Your Aim-Traks (and all other IR guns) are cameras. 
The camera sees the IR LEDs in the "sensor bar" and bases position of that.
The "sensor bar" is nothing more than some LEDs lit up as reference points for the camera to use.
People have successfully used candles in place of the "sensor bar" for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and giggles.
The Sega arcade systems are more accurate because they have IR LEDs all around the screen, therefore more points of reference for more accurate positioning.

If there is anything to this guys solution, I'd asssume it's a camera using the output of the screen rather than IR LEDs for reference.
In the videos, it doesn't appear to work any better than an IR gun though.

Yeah what I meant was I have never seen a camera reference a screen as such.

Again except the zapper.

Ian

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2018, 11:36:42 am »
Atari VCS anyone?
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2018, 12:40:29 pm »
Atari VCS anyone?

Ile take 3! LOL

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2018, 12:57:01 pm »
Master System light gun craps all over the zapper.  Its not even close.


Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2018, 02:50:25 pm »
Master System light gun craps all over the zapper.  Its not even close.

Never had the chance to try a Master System one, What makes them so good?

DarthMarino

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2018, 08:55:40 pm »
He put up a video explaining how it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcGpr_8W9Y

tony.silveira

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2018, 09:35:24 pm »
i asked about 2 player games, very interested in this tech if hes legit

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2018, 03:34:38 am »
Ahh so it is camera based!
Glad he has tried to explain it.

I sent him a email the other day saying it would be in his best interests.

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2018, 04:17:51 am »
Did you ask him if he had his tickets to Tahiti booked yet?

Titchgamer

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2018, 04:29:42 am »
Did you ask him if he had his tickets to Tahiti booked yet?

Nope he never responded lol

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2018, 10:38:24 am »
Not trying to be the proverbial "wet blanket", but the concept is not really new.  I believe we have even heard this concept expressed a few times here, and some of the issues brought up were:

Distance required, especially for larger screens.  I.e. how well does it work when dealing with an incomplete trapezoid?

The need to frame the image, in order to provide markers.  Mame provides this ability, and some low complexity images may not need it. But the possible issues are that light will need to be controlled around the screen, some calibration will still be necessary to isolate the image from the background and tell the application about the game being played (resolution, aspect ratio, etc) and the frame could throw off the display for those looking for 1:1 display accuracy.  Some of this could be automated by linking into a database, or Mame itself, but given the number of possible display options, I'd be surprised if calibration wasn't an eventual necessity.

The other concern is that the demos seem to show a pretty strict 90 degree orientation of the gun.  The effects of turning the gun require some more complicated math, and if it's less than perfect, so will be your positioning.

Finally, the way this is done really isn't so different from using a "light bar" as a reference.  It does provide more markers, but the possible downside is, again, the need to see the entire screen (if it's incapable of handling partial references.)     

It's definitely an interesting proof-of-concept, but I still see a number of hurdles which need to be overcome.  The extent to which these will, or can be, is the risk in buying into the idea.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 11:21:01 am by RandyT »

tony.silveira

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2018, 11:09:11 am »
i asked hm three questions last night and received a response this morning.

1. how many players
2. how close to screen can you be
3. does it work on old crt screens?

Hi Tony

Thanks for your email.

1) 2 player games are possible as long as the emulator supports it, so Mame definately works.

2) This is all based on the optics in the final product so it's a bit up in the air at the moment. I think you would need to be a minimum of 1.5x the width of the tv back to have any chance of it working, 2x would probably be better for full performance.  If you see my main cover photo based in my living room that gives a good example.  It works perfectly from my sofa but also still works if I lean forward.  My living room is not that big across.

3) Good question, theoretically yes in some cases but untested.  It would definately work on the more modern flat screen CRT.  I think it might have some difficulties on a proper old style curved screen CRT although still might be able to tweak the software to get it working.

Can I ask where you saw my Kickstarter please?  I've refreshed my Kickstarter content last night so you might find that interesting.

Thanks

Andy


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2018, 11:21:58 am »
Not trying to be the proverbial "wet blanket", but the concept is not really new.  I believe we have even heard this concept expressed a few times here, and some of the issues brought up were:

Distance required, especially for larger screens.  I.e. how well does it work when dealing with an incomplete trapezoid?

The need to frame the image, in order to provide markers.  Mame provides this ability, and some low complexity images may not need it. But the possible issues are that light will need to be controlled around the screen, some calibration will still be necessary to isolate the image from the background and tell the application about the game being played (resolution, aspect ratio, etc) and the frame could throw off the display for those looking for 1:1 display accuracy.  Some of this could be automated by linking into a database, or Mame itself, but given the number of possible display options, i'd be surprised if calibration wasn't an eventual necessity.

The other concern is that the demos seem to show a pretty strict 90 degree orientation of the gun.  The effects of turning the gun require some more complicated math, and if it's less than perfect, so will be your positioning.

Finally, the way this is done really isn't so different from using a "light bar" as a reference.  It does provide more markers, but the possible downside is, again, the need to see the entire screen (if it's incapable of handling partial references.)     

It's definitely an interesting proof-of-concept, but I still see a number of hurdles which need to be overcome.  The extent to which these will, or can be, is the risk in buying into the idea.

He addressed the sitting position thing in his "how it works video" (Ile link it here now ime on a laptop)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/grcGpr_8W9Y" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But yeah its nothing new in theory, I said years ago that something like this could be done with a camera but would need someone with the brains to make it work and it looks like the guy has.
Also a interesting 3D concept.

I think anything that can make light guns relevant again is a good thing, hopefully bring them back without the need for VR.


pbj

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2018, 12:01:11 pm »
Randy didn't think it up first, so it's crap.  Never change, arcade vendors.

 :applaud:

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2018, 12:42:01 pm »
Randy didn't think it up first, so it's crap.  Never change, arcade vendors.

Stay classy, Jimmy.  :cheers:

He addressed the sitting position thing in his "how it works video" (Ile link it here now ime on a laptop)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/grcGpr_8W9Y" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But yeah its nothing new in theory, I said years ago that something like this could be done with a camera but would need someone with the brains to make it work and it looks like the guy has.
Also a interesting 3D concept.

I think anything that can make light guns relevant again is a good thing, hopefully bring them back without the need for VR.

If he can get past the 6DOF calculations, it could be a good solution.  Obviously, it's possible, because that is what is used in VR controllers.  The difference is that there is more hardware involved in doing this well for VR, and in this case, it has to be extrapolated from geometrical changes of a 2D plane, and accuracy is limited by the resolution of the camera in relation to the distance from the display.  There's a lot of complex math going on there, and the current demos shown, don't demonstrate that less than ideal conditions can be handled with more accuracy than external reference points.  The issue with the lightbars is the relative distance and number of points, which if increased, tend to push you back further from the screen.

As for the 3D part, someone did this originally with the Wii controllers (light bar) so that isn't related specifically to this method. The TopGun method using 2 lightbars, having multiple reference points, works pretty well, but there's no reason to think that this method would work better, unless you are banking on this individual doing the math better, or using better hardware to do the calculations.

So in summary, the gains over other solutions, at least at this point, seem to be not needing to use light bars for the reference points, but needing to add the reference to the images being displayed.  This seems to be a bit of a wash.  Before I get too excited, and consider getting rid of my dedicated CRT lightgun-based rig, I would want to see some raw gameplay footage of Time Crisis, without visible crosshairs.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 12:43:32 pm by RandyT »

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2018, 12:43:08 pm »
Has anyone seen the update video on this?  I'm interested in thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grcGpr_8W9Y

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2018, 12:49:47 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap so dont use them on my Mame cab I rather use my Aim Traks.

I am looking forward to seeing how this solution progresses, Ive decided to back him and give him a chance to do some good.

Ime not convinced its going to hit target but still we shall see.

Few ppl moaning about the price I noticed around but ATs are more than 100 and if this performs better than them then its 100 well spent imo.



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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2018, 12:56:14 pm »
You could just cut out the middle man and mail him a one way plane ticket to Tahiti.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2018, 01:05:51 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 01:07:45 pm »
Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

The fact he can seemingly move around and hit what he pointed at is a good start to being better than the top gun!

Mike A

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2018, 01:19:07 pm »
Quote
The TopGun method using 2 lightbars, having multiple reference points, works pretty well

Tbh Randy I thought the top guns were crap ...

Kind of where I was heading with what I wrote  ;)  Implementation is everything, so this individual would need to be able to do it better, or the results won't be.  Maybe he can.

Works pretty well and works like crap are two different things. That is some interesting back pedaling Randy. :P

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2018, 01:21:15 pm »
The fact he can seemingly move around and hit what he pointed at is a good start to being better than the top gun!

I used one with HOD back in the day, without cursors, and could do so as well.  But it was very intolerant to less than ideal gun handling.  If you hold it the way this one is being shown in the videos, it worked well.

pbj

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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2018, 01:23:02 pm »
He's done the same routine for 10+ years.  Anything he didn't personally design is crap.  Which, granted, his stuff has been quality in my personal experience so...

 :dunno

I'm still unsure as to the point of a kickstarter.  If he's already got a functional prototype that looks decent... why not make more?


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Re: A new lightgun?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2018, 01:26:57 pm »
These "inventors" always figure out the hard way that manufacturing a product is at least as difficult as coming up with a viable product design.

  
 

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