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Author Topic: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong  (Read 6759 times)

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pbj

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2018, 08:40:31 pm »
Now we're arguing about the definition of true science fiction.  Classic.

 :applaud:

shponglefan

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2018, 08:44:19 pm »
Star Trek has always been firmly in the science fantasy category to me...
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 08:47:35 pm by shponglefan »

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2018, 09:01:03 pm »
It's not that our current knowledge is dogma. It's that we'd have to unlearn a whole lot of what we already know to accommodate such explanations on the show.

Really? What is so entrenched in you that you have to unlearn that was so hard? To watch the show in general you have to unlearn our current understanding of space travel, time, matter, intelligence, medicine, etc...our understanding of how DNA works doesn't seem to be any different, especially given it is still a very untapped science that we are still struggling to learn more about.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2018, 09:04:04 pm »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2018, 09:08:56 pm »
Now we're arguing about the definition of true science fiction.  Classic.

 :applaud:

 >:D >:D >:D All according to plan....

DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2018, 09:12:28 pm »
Now we're arguing about the definition of true science fiction.  Classic.

 :applaud:
I'll just wait silently* for a usual suspect to admonish pbj to "just let people enjoy things."

*startinnnng now!
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shponglefan

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2018, 10:40:21 pm »
Really? What is so entrenched in you that you have to unlearn that was so hard? To watch the show in general you have to unlearn our current understanding of space travel, time, matter, intelligence, medicine, etc...our understanding of how DNA works doesn't seem to be any different, especially given it is still a very untapped science that we are still struggling to learn more about.

Are you trying to argue that we should just suspend our disbelief and enjoy it? Or are you trying to argue that it could be scientifically plausible what they are depicting?

The former I'm fine with. Because a lot of stuff in Star Trek makes no sense and just seems to exist for the convenience of the plot. The latter though is just silly. The show is not pushing plausible science; they're simply invoking a technobabble solution for an in-universe explanation for their budgetary constraints.

Now do I really need to start getting into genetics, evolution, and the diversity of life to explain why it's a silly idea?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 10:42:25 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2018, 11:49:36 pm »
Star Trek is science fiction, period, end of story, it isn't up for debate.  They had nasa consultants working with the tng showrunners for quite a while to make sure that the science of the day at least seemed accurate or plausible even if the explanation given isn't exactly scientific fact.  Of course they did stuff that most likely isn't possible and explained a lot of stuff wrong.... that's where the "fiction" in science fiction comes from.  Many of the underlying principals in the show are factually accurate though, or at least were factually plausible at the time.  Much of the tech in the show, for example, is now actual stuff that you have in your living room and use everyday.  Transporters.... yup some scientists have managed to "teleport" a few atoms across a room.  Scifi isn't about what is, it's about what potentially could be. 

Science fantasy are shows like Doctor Who, where they have flying sharks because flying sharks are cool, or Star Wars, where they don't even bother to attempt to explain how most stuff works, ect...

I've said my piece and now I'm leaving this thread as a warp core breach between you two seems imminent.

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2018, 12:42:20 am »
Are you trying to argue that we should just suspend our disbelief and enjoy it? Or are you trying to argue that it could be scientifically plausible what they are depicting?

Neither. I'm asking what had to be "unlearned" to watch that episode. You should neither need to suspend disbelief nor call it scientifically plausible as written. Star trek invented things like the cloaking device, where its scientific explanation would not work according to "real science" as drake calls it in a manner that would fool ship sensors, yet here we are in 2018 with some cloaking technologies surfacing based on completely different technology.

Now do I really need to start getting into genetics, evolution, and the diversity of life to explain why it's a silly idea?

What I find silly is you picking that apart when there are dozens of creatures, races and entities that defy those genetic theories far more than that episode. The puddle thing that killed Tasha, Rock people, fire entities, cloud creatures. Every effin planet is a desolate wasteland with no flora or fauna but a single race living there? I guess that's fine, but writing an episode about a DNA being spread between planets systems ruins the show? That just doesn't add up.

DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2018, 07:38:14 am »
Scifi isn't about what is, it's about what potentially could be. 
You completely ignored the question. This particular idea can't potentially be. NASA and teleportation have nothing to do with it. Get back to me when you can tell me which rigidly-tested theory your teleportation upended.

Jumping into the fray without any relevant substance doesn't mean you're above the fray. It just means you jumped into the fray without any relevant substance.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 09:06:43 am by DrakeTungsten »
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dkersten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2018, 11:12:47 am »
It's a TV show, and ultimately what aired is not the vision of Roddenberry or even the show's writers, it's the vision of the producers who had to make sure the show would fit in the bounds of the budget and time allotments and ultimately the goal was to keep viewers interested long enough to watch commercials, not to push the bounds of science with revolutionary ideas.

If I had to bet on what was more important during the filming of the episode in question: whether the science fiction is factual enough to suspend disbelief or whether the bagels on set are fresh today, my money is on the bagels.

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #91 on: August 17, 2018, 11:44:23 am »
Scifi isn't about what is, it's about what potentially could be. 
You completely ignored the question. This particular idea can't potentially be.

This is why I laugh. For being a person of "real science" that response is so close minded. Science thrives on being disproven. If this idea can't possibly be, why has NASA and Space agencies across the globe putting money and time in researching it? Check out things like the Tanpopo Mission. While you are at it, watch the Hospital scene from Star Trek 4, which is a great metaphor for my entire point.

As for Howards point, it was perfectly on topic, he gets it.

lilshawn

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #92 on: August 17, 2018, 02:49:35 pm »
I dunno...the series would be pretty boring if every episode was "stardate 40246.5 we have left the Gamma Fallopian system after looking for signs of life...nothing found yet" *rolls credits*

accuracy or interesting story

pick one.  :dunno

we had our fair share of tribbles and dog dressed up as "aliens" not so good Gene.

wp34

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2018, 02:54:02 pm »
I've never seen Star Trek Discovery but was able to grok Howard's point about the transporter.    :dunno

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2018, 05:15:14 pm »
Fair enough, I didn't watch Enterprise, so I don't know. :)

The only bad Trek was Voyager. There, I said it. I feel better.

Are you willing to go on record as saying Voyager is worse than Enterprise?

Fair enough, I didn't watch Enterprise, so I don't know. :)
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2018, 05:21:10 pm »
Cleanup in aisle Trek!
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DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2018, 05:29:52 pm »
Scifi isn't about what is, it's about what potentially could be. 
You completely ignored the question. This particular idea can't potentially be.

This is why I laugh. For being a person of "real science" that response is so close minded. Science thrives on being disproven. If this idea can't possibly be, why has NASA and Space agencies across the globe putting money and time in researching it? Check out things like the Tanpopo Mission. While you are at it, watch the Hospital scene from Star Trek 4, which is a great metaphor for my entire point
The challenge was to name the scientific theory which has been "upended". You didn't do that and you can't do that, so that count remains at zero.  You are not only wrong, you are 100% backwards. The teleportation experiment was possible only because of existing theory, and the results strengthened the existing theory. I don't know what's wrong with you that your thought process goes "I find this thing surprising, therefore a theory must have been upended", but you clearly talk out of your ass.

It's OK to concede that you learned something. I promise you will survive the experience.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 02:49:38 pm by DrakeTungsten »
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Mr. Peabody

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2018, 05:21:42 pm »
...If this idea can't possibly be, why has NASA and Space agencies across the globe putting money and time in researching it?


Because being involved means social exposure, probably funding - and because all the old guys died off.

Science fiction, from Verne and Wells was about man and his journey into the unknown through technological means. Even the likes of E.E. Doc Smith was based in this. At least some of the early science fiction TV shows were - before the paranoia of 'progress' set in, in the late 50s. At least one story writer has said along the lines of, 'the world gives complex conditions for man to find himself through.....ignoring that in fiction cheats and bankrupts man and his story'.

Nephasth

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2018, 01:51:03 am »
Been watching Voyager... This moment from Future's End Pt 2 made me smile...

Quote
Porter: [after shooting the Doctor several times, without any effect] God in Heaven help us!

The Doctor: Divine intervention is unlikely.

[stuns Porter and his friend]
%Bartop

fallacy

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2018, 08:16:01 pm »
I never understood why Voyager gets so much ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I guess it has some week cast memebers, more like just forgetable but it aslo had some strong ones as well.


Tuvok I thought played the best Vulcan since Leonard Nimoy himself.

Kathryn Janeway great captain never once did you ever question her sex.

The Doctor was great,

Seven of nine was pretty good and hot.

k thats it, but it also had the best intro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_OylbFmMJU







opt2not

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2018, 10:10:05 pm »
I want to like voyager, but it’s just that Janeway is so unlikeable.

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #101 on: August 23, 2018, 11:16:59 pm »
Any school Marm hotness that Janeway had was instantly destroyed by her voice. It was like Urkel after chain smoking 3 packs of cigarettes.  :scared

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #102 on: August 23, 2018, 11:35:20 pm »
I don't get what people's issue with her voice is.... just sounds like a normal older lady to me. 

She was one of the more badass captains.  Just watched that episode with the borg children where Janeway orders the Doctor to prepare a biological weapon to kill said children WHILE HOLDING A BORG INFANT IN HER HANDS.  That's even more cold-blooded than Sisko. 

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2018, 12:27:22 am »
I don't get what people's issue with her voice is.... just sounds like a normal older lady to me. 

She was one of the more badass captains.  Just watched that episode with the borg children where Janeway orders the Doctor to prepare a biological weapon to kill said children WHILE HOLDING A BORG INFANT IN HER HANDS.  That's even more cold-blooded than Sisko.

Probably Cuz she was only 40 when she took on the role of Janeway. too young in my book to be sounding like you should be offering dollar store hard candies to children.  ;D

In reality, I didn't mind her from a character standpoint. She was actually pretty good. What bugged me was the trifecta of bland: Harry Kim, Tom Paris and Chacote. They all seemed to be lacking in leading personality and character. I failed to care about any of them. I never felt they brought any consistent tenson, opposing personalities, or real chemistry. I know there are episodes that exhibit their personality, but the next episode they become yes men to Janeway because the writers are busy exploring a different character and can't be bothered developing multiple characters at once.

The other nail in the coffin for me was the fact the series took place completely outside of federation space. More borg, but it brought it down a peg when Starfleet really didn't mean a whole lot to the show. You also felt like nothing is really going to seriously damage the ship that couldn't be repaired by next episode, because they couldn't ever end an episode with them stranded.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2018, 01:14:35 am »
Chacote and Kim could be replaced by cardboard cutouts and nobody would notice, but Tom is nothing but personality.  Mind you his personality is 90% --cream-filled twinkie--, but it works for him. 


I think you are confusing personality with arguing.  They did that a lot on TNG.... Worf wanted to blow everything up, Riker wanted to take the risker plan, data wouldn't shut up about the technobabble and Picard played daddy to sort it all out and take a reasonable plan of action.  Everybody pretty much got along on Voyager so there was very little conflict.  I think that's fine and I think the fact that they just have standard TNG-style episodes are fine as well. 


That doesn't mean I don't think the show wasted it's potential though.  Most of the things brought up in the pilot are dropped and seldom addressed again.  The ship has neural gel packs for data storage.... and I comes up in one episode.  Half the crew is maquis the other Starfleet and yet it's seldom brought up with the crew pretty much fully integrated by the first half of the first season.  They don't have the federation to back them up and yet they don't seem to have any problem getting out of crazy situations, including multiple borg encounters. 


Those are all problems that keep the show from being exceptional, but there is a difference between being bad and just not being outstanding.  Voyager does the whole episode of the week thing with typical star trek plots and that makes it a good show, just like enterprise and ds9 and even non star trek shows like Andromeda, Babylon 5, Stargate and Farscape.  Somewhere along the line TNG became it's own genre and most of the episodic scifi since has followed that template.  My point is it's hard to stand out when every space odyssey on tv is basically doing the same thing. 

fallacy

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2018, 10:11:44 am »
Speaking of forgettable cast members remember her?



Of course not I looked it up she was in the first 3 seasons Voyager and you would instantly forget her the second she was off the screen.


On the flip side remember her?




Everyone does she actually left the show the second season of Next Gen asking to be killed off because she literally was not doing anything and wanted to find other acting jobs; i guess you either have it or you don't.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2018, 10:55:42 am »
Kes went nuts and was arrested a couple years ago.

Denise Crosby is just an actress that you would see in a bit part once in a while after TNG. The largest role I can remember seeing her in outside of Star Trek was Pet Sematary.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2018, 01:42:41 pm »
I remember them both just fine.  Tasha had a number of memorable episodes, including that mildly racist one on the Africa planet.  Kes was a bit more bland, but she was the doctor's pet... err I mean nurse and I don't think anyone can get the mental image of her and Neelix as a couple out of their head.  (ewe!)

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2018, 01:38:04 pm »
I watched Into Darkness last night, which wouldn't be notable except it was one of my first "movie nights" with some friends in the new theater, which is 95% finished now and fully operational.  I have to say, in my opinion, the best scene in all of Star Trek is the one you are watching in 4k on a 150" wide screen with 21,000 watts of power for the sound system.  Pretty friggin awesome and hard to beat. 


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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2018, 01:41:18 pm »
I watched Into Darkness last night, which wouldn't be notable except it was one of my first "movie nights" with some friends in the new theater, which is 95% finished now and fully operational.  I have to say, in my opinion, the best scene in all of Star Trek is the one you are watching in 4k on a 150" wide screen with 21,000 watts of power for the sound system.  Pretty friggin awesome and hard to beat. 



That could be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Are you a robot or something?

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2018, 01:42:27 pm »
He waves around his home theater dick any chance he gets.


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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2018, 03:13:06 pm »
He waves around his home theater dick any chance he gets.

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #112 on: August 27, 2018, 03:19:57 pm »
The WWE logo on that classic WCW clip bothers me.
No matter one's station in life, the Dance of Death unites us all.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #113 on: August 27, 2018, 03:37:36 pm »
*Ond throws cat bomb amongst pigeons*  Star Trek has no best scenes, get The Expanse or GTFO. *Ond runs away giggling hysterically like Jennifer*
You might think that you're scared, but you're not.  That isn't fear.  That's your sharpness.  That's your power.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2018, 04:28:53 pm »
*Ond throws cat bomb amongst pigeons*  Star Trek has no best scenes, get The Expanse or GTFO. *Ond runs away giggling hysterically like Jennifer*

I recently finished the latest Expanse book and am looking forward to starting the show.   :cheers:

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2018, 05:38:29 pm »
*Ond throws cat bomb amongst pigeons*  Star Trek has no best scenes, get The Expanse or GTFO. *Ond runs away giggling hysterically like Jennifer*

I recently finished the latest Expanse book and am looking forward to starting the show.   :cheers:

I really envy you.  I wish I was discovering it for the first time just now.
You might think that you're scared, but you're not.  That isn't fear.  That's your sharpness.  That's your power.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2018, 07:10:38 pm »
The expanse is really good, but it's no Star Trek.  After all… it got cancelled  (*throws dog bomb at cat bomb*)

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2018, 07:21:47 pm »
 :cheers:  erhm isnt Amazon picking up season 4 hmm?  I could be wrong of course.
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opt2not

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2018, 07:46:08 pm »
I love the Expanse...there was a part near the end of the first season that I felt there was a major shift in tone. Like they went darker at some point (perhaps after losing the contract with SyFy). 
The Expanse is another sci-fi universe they were able to make the science seem plausible. Unlike Star Trek Discovery that turned more into fantasy than sci-fi...which is fine, if you like that sort of thing. It's not my cup o' tea though. I rather have sci-fi that seems like it stems from logic, rather than "magic".

Howard_Casto

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2018, 09:27:02 pm »
:cheers:  erhm isnt Amazon picking up season 4 hmm?  I could be wrong of course.


Still got cancelled, so it counts. 


Not sure how Discovery got into the mix.  Everybody knows that the latest Star Trek show is called "The Orville"  :)

  
 

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