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Author Topic: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong  (Read 6758 times)

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yotsuya

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2018, 03:44:28 pm »
When it comes to the movies, Iíve only seen Star Trek - The Motion Picture.
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HaRuMaN

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2018, 03:58:00 pm »
When it comes to the movies, Iíve only seen Star Trek - The Motion Picture.

Dude. Stop what you're doing and go watch Wrath of Khan.

yotsuya

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2018, 04:01:26 pm »
When it comes to the movies, Iíve only seen Star Trek - The Motion Picture.

Dude. Stop what you're doing and go watch Wrath of Khan.

Iím in a webinar!

Maybe this weekend. Always wanted to see IV as well
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HaRuMaN

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2018, 04:06:22 pm »
 :afro:

VI is a good one as well

lilshawn

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wp34

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2018, 04:26:42 pm »
When it comes to the movies, Iíve only seen Star Trek - The Motion Picture.

Dude. Stop what you're doing and go watch Wrath of Khan.

The even numbered movies are great.  STIII might be an exception to that rule but it is still much weaker than the even numbered movies.

Wrath of Khan is one of my all-time favorite movies of any genre.

pbj

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2018, 04:28:07 pm »
I like the one where Spock's brother steals the ship to talk to god.  Probably the only one I've watched from start to finish on TV.


wp34

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2018, 04:45:36 pm »
I like the one where Spock's brother steals the ship to talk to god.  Probably the only one I've watched from start to finish on TV.

 :badmood:  That is by far the worst one.

opt2not

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2018, 05:04:46 pm »
I like the one with the humpback whales.

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2018, 02:04:24 pm »
I like to think of Star Trek 2, 3 and 4 as the real trilogy. The stories tie together well. Very complete.

Howard_Casto

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2018, 12:23:39 am »
I like the one where Spock's brother steals the ship to talk to god.  Probably the only one I've watched from start to finish on TV.

 :badmood:  That is by far the worst one.


No that would be Star Trek III.  You know, the one without Spock.  Five is very underrated... it's one of my personal favorites.  The moral lesson about religion not being the answer to everyone's problems and perhaps peoples' struggles building character instead of destroying their lives is a very poignant one.  Also the whole thing about joining a cult to find god ends up brining you closer to the devil is kind of fitting.  I mean you do understand that the trapped entity was supposed to be the devil right?  Yeah the ending was kind of botched and that fan dance was kind of weird, but everything else was pretty great. 

The motion picture is also a  bit underrated.  It's slow as hell, but if you have the patience it's quite cerebral, which is how good Trek should be.  Honestly three is the only TOS stinker imho, primarily because the entire film is a giant plot device to unkill Spock, but they didn't have the good sense to bring him back at the beginning of the film, so that you know, Leonard Nimoy would actually be in it to play off of Kirk and McCoy. 

Mike A

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2018, 08:16:13 am »
In one of Shatners books he said that he got handcuffed by studio execs on the ending of the movie. He needed more money for the ending he wanted. He could have made that up, but that is the reason he provided. I liked 5 as well. The row, row, row your boat scenes were among my favorites in all of Trek.

wp34

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2018, 09:03:17 am »
I like the one where Spock's brother steals the ship to talk to god.  Probably the only one I've watched from start to finish on TV.

 :badmood:  That is by far the worst one.


No that would be Star Trek III.  You know, the one without Spock.  Five is very underrated... it's one of my personal favorites.  The moral lesson about religion not being the answer to everyone's problems and perhaps peoples' struggles building character instead of destroying their lives is a very poignant one.  Also the whole thing about joining a cult to find god ends up brining you closer to the devil is kind of fitting.  I mean you do understand that the trapped entity was supposed to be the devil right?  Yeah the ending was kind of botched and that fan dance was kind of weird, but everything else was pretty great. 

The motion picture is also a  bit underrated.  It's slow as hell, but if you have the patience it's quite cerebral, which is how good Trek should be.  Honestly three is the only TOS stinker imho, primarily because the entire film is a giant plot device to unkill Spock, but they didn't have the good sense to bring him back at the beginning of the film, so that you know, Leonard Nimoy would actually be in it to play off of Kirk and McCoy.

I'm stunned that five is a personal favorite of yours.  I haven't seen it in a long time so I won't presume to debate you.  Although I may have to watch it so I can come back here and be a troll.   ;D

Three isn't a stinker to me but it has a lot of problems.   On the plus side showing Earth outside of Starfleet was fun as was the stealing of the Enterprise.  Christopher Lloyd was also a blast as Kruge.  Like Vigo said II,III and IV make a nice trilogy.

The main problem with the motion picture are the way too long shots of the Enterprise.  They decided to break the rules of Star Wars--which kept the effects shots brief--and return to the sins of 2001 a Space Odyssey.   It isn't a great movie but I do enjoy it.  It is closer to TOS in tone than all the other movies.

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2018, 10:25:08 am »
The only bad Trek was Voyager. There, I said it. I feel better.

Are you willing to go on record as saying Voyager is worse than Enterprise?

I'll say, Janeway used to drive me crazy, but a rewatch of the series in chronological order and I found it to be very enjoyable. It has an overall story arch, like DS9, that provided continuity and the character development gave a nice human aspect. I enjoyed it.

Oddly enough, when I built my R2D2, I watched Voyager from start to finish. Season 1, I was spending 90% of my time building R2, and 10% to watching the show. By the last season, I was 100% watching the show, lol.

adder

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2018, 11:07:56 am »
love voyager  :)

the borg are in it loads.. what's not to like?

fave episode is called 'the thaw'   ...  still scares the crap out of me   :o

https://youtu.be/x4SNl4sQYOg

Howard_Casto

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2018, 01:34:00 pm »
In one of Shatners books he said that he got handcuffed by studio execs on the ending of the movie. He needed more money for the ending he wanted. He could have made that up, but that is the reason he provided. I liked 5 as well. The row, row, row your boat scenes were among my favorites in all of Trek.


There are actually storyboards and some effects-free test shots to back him up.  He definately had a more grand ending in mind.


Yeah my point exactly.  Star Trek isn't Star Wars.... you aren't there to see lightsaber battles or grand space dogfights.... it's all about row, row, row your boat.  The TOS films, yes even three, all further character development, particularly between Kirk, Spock and McCoy.  By the time six rolls around, a crew that was quite splintered in the first film is again inseparable and people guilty about not making time for a family realize that they had one all along.  The only really odd thing is the fact that Kirk doesn't seem to give a crap about his dead son in four and five, but I suppose that would have kind of been a bummer in the light-hearted voyage home. 


Voyager was a great show burdened by some of the worst episodes in the franchise.  Nobody remembers the Q civil war or the numerous borg battles, they remember that episode where going past warp 10 turned Tom and Janeway into space salamanders and they porked and had a litter of tadpoles.  It is a great series.... it just grows it's beard in season 4 or 5 instead of 2 or 3 as per usual.  Enterprise is actually great as well assuming you completely ignore the Xindi war arc which was really inappropriate. It gets MUCH better in those final episodes.  The series finale kinda blew though.  They couldn't help it though as they got cancelled out of nowhere.

The only Star Trek I can honestly say isn't worth a watch are the first two Kelvin movies and Discovery. 

Well... Discovery had two or three good episodes if you can ignore all the canon breaking, ill-advised set design, costume changes and all the other garbage they screwed up.  And it looks like they aren't going to do a very good job explaining the changes considering Captain Pike is going to take command in season two and he wears a proper TOS uniform while everyone else we've seen in the series on any ship up to this point wears those bland blue jumpsuits because......reasons??

pbj

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2018, 04:36:08 pm »
What was the one with the fonz and the hot vulcan?  Did she ever get naked?


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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2018, 04:45:13 pm »
What was the one with the fonz and the hot vulcan?  Did she ever get naked?

Do you mean Enterprise?  Yes, yes she does. 

Mr. Peabody

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2018, 07:53:25 pm »
Search for Spock had great visuals in the Enterprise theft scene. No reason to look real-er than that. I was mixed about III as a kid (and I didn't care for Kluge), though at the end of II I thought it was obvious the possibility of Spock rejuvenating, especially with Kirk's final log entry. I watched III recently-ish, and found it more entertaining.

I've thought V was awful. Even then I thought, 'they have these essentially psychic powers, and they haven't developed them?....'

The Motion Picture is a great Star Trek episode that wasn't.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 08:14:44 pm by Mr. Peabody »

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2018, 06:10:54 pm »
$33 on Amazon for all 10 TOS + TNG Star Trek movies on blu-ray. Get it while its hot.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DB97LCM






javeryh

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2018, 06:25:34 pm »
So how do they teleport with mushrooms?  I'm so confused.

Howard_Casto

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2018, 11:41:41 pm »
So how do they teleport with mushrooms?  I'm so confused.


That's one of my main gripes with Discovery.  Yes it's all made-up techno-babble, but on previous series it always at least sounded like it could be based on science.  Discovery went full Doctor Who.... "yes we can teleport because of spores and the reason is.... hey look over there at that explosion!  no time to explain!"

wp34

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2018, 08:32:28 am »
That's one of my main gripes with Discovery.  Yes it's all made-up techno-babble, but on previous series it always at least sounded like it could be based on science.  Discovery went full Doctor Who.... "yes we can teleport because of spores and the reason is.... hey look over there at that explosion!  no time to explain!"

That sounds suspiciously like Midi-chlorians.

I loved Next Generation but it seemed like every episode was ended with a "tachyon burst" or "redirecting the sensor array" to solve a problem.  But yeah it at least felt like science.




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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2018, 05:08:59 pm »
That sounds suspiciously like Midi-chlorians.

I loved Next Generation but it seemed like every episode was ended with a "tachyon burst" or "redirecting the sensor array" to solve a problem.  But yeah it at least felt like science.

TNG had its midichlorian moment when they attempted an in-universe explanation for why all alien races were bipedal humanoids.  They gave credence to the concept of intelligent design and undercut the science of biological evolution in the most unnecessary Star Trek episode ever.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 05:25:30 pm by shponglefan »

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2018, 01:13:21 pm »
They gave credence to the concept of intelligent design and undercut the science of biological evolution in the most unnecessary Star Trek episode ever.

 :laugh2: I love how that seemingly offends you, being that Star Trek upends current limited scientific knowledge on a regular basis, and science is meant to be upended. The episode I think you were referring was more taking on the theory of panspermia, that organic carbon can survive in space and seed life on other planets if they are hospitable. Being that we are now finding in tact DNA on the exterior of the ISS, there is at least some plausibility to that theory.

DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2018, 01:38:27 pm »
They gave credence to the concept of intelligent design and undercut the science of biological evolution in the most unnecessary Star Trek episode ever.

 :laugh2: I love how that seemingly offends you, being that Star Trek upends current limited scientific knowledge on a regular basis, and science is meant to be upended.
Your last phrase is kinda true in a general sense, but if you're specifically suggesting that the theory of evolution is just as likely to be "upended" as any dawn-of-science, virtually untested hypotheses which were disproven once they were investigated in earnest, then you are 100% wrong.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 03:43:57 pm by DrakeTungsten »
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2018, 03:30:39 pm »
Actually Star Trek's  alien races are quite inaccurate.  Ask any exobiologistÖ the odds of multiple races that all look basically the same and yet come from different planets with different flora and fauna, not to mention differences in gravity and ect. is quite low.  Regardless, that particular episode does NOT go against the theory of evolution but rather supports it.  Remember Darwin and all of those birds with their widely different adaptations on similar islands?  Yeah in this case the "birds" are a common humanoid ancestor and the "islands" are various M-Class planets in the galaxy.  Remember, those strange aliens weren't a fictional god, but rather a different alien species. 

Read what Vigo said... panspermia has some merit even if it is unlikely.

DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2018, 04:04:10 pm »
I was pretty sure exactly this would happen...

At that point in the post, vigo was addressing the idea that even if ST "upended" evolution, then etc... That is what I responded to. Even then, I was clear that I was factoring ST out of the question, as he appeared to do as well.

This is independent of his later idea of "by the way, that episode wasn't really about intelligent design."  I wasn't talking about that part at all.

I'm not much of a ST fan, but as a comics and science geek, the preponderence of humanoid life forms has always bugged me. I've tried to justify this in my head-canon, but ID is really the only answer, and I say this as an atheist. But ID doesn't have to have the same implications in a fantasy world that it does IRL. It doesn't even have to be supernatural.
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2018, 04:13:02 pm »
Quote
Yeah in this case the "birds" are a common humanoid ancestor and the "islands" are various M-Class planets
Depending on the details, this explanation has the potential to be very stupid, or the best play they could make with a bad hand (other than hand-waving, which is sometimes the best option) Is this supposed to include accounting for humans being humanoid?
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Malenko

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2018, 04:56:34 pm »
The preponderance of humanoid aliens wasn't because its easy to just put a human actor in make up for a TV show?
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2018, 05:14:07 pm »
(never mind. It's a mistake to even try)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:28:03 pm by DrakeTungsten »
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2018, 05:29:30 pm »
Editing out your question before I can reply. Nice.

How does that work in-universe?

My answer didn't consider any in-universe explanation.  Technological limits during TOS , and likely costs of a weekly TV show using modern technology are what keep the majority of the cast and aliens "humanoid".
The Orville (which is an obvious homage to Star Trek) does have 1 non humanoid alien but even it speaks perfect English (as well as Norm McDonald does at least) and has lips.

So I can't really answer your "in universe" question except to say they can only do so much with an explanation when the limit isn't the writing, but in the production.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:38:42 pm by Malenko »
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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2018, 06:08:47 pm »
:laugh2: I love how that seemingly offends you, being that Star Trek upends current limited scientific knowledge on a regular basis, and science is meant to be upended.

Not so much offended as just perplexed. The stuff in TNG (biology-related at least) blatantly contradicts a lot of already known biological science. While science is certainly meant to be ever-changing, there's a difference between gaining new, more accurate knowledge versus stating stuff that is just blatantly wrong. TNG falls in the latter.

On top of that, it's so unnecessary. We know why all alien races in Star Trek are humanoid. It's called budget (or lack thereof). No in-universe explanation was necessary.

Quote
The episode I think you were referring was more taking on the theory of panspermia, that organic carbon can survive in space and seed life on other planets if they are hospitable. Being that we are now finding in tact DNA on the exterior of the ISS, there is at least some plausibility to that theory.

It's panspermia, but with a huge element of directed design built in. If the Earth really was seeded via microbes from space, any subsequent evolution of life would be largely directed by the environment. But this doesn't mean that a bipedal humanoid is going to be a guaranteed outcome; far from it.

What they are effectively arguing is for some sort of genetic front-loading that leads to specific outcomes over billions of years, which flies in the face of everything we know about evolution. They really are arguing for intelligent design.

edited to add: I looked up the episode; they talk about a genetic "program" being embedded in DNA guiding evolution to humanoid forms.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 06:45:08 pm by shponglefan »

Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2018, 07:36:06 pm »
What they are effectively arguing is for some sort of genetic front-loading that leads to specific outcomes over billions of years, which flies in the face of everything we know about evolution. They really are arguing for intelligent design.

edited to add: I looked up the episode; they talk about a genetic "program" being embedded in DNA guiding evolution to humanoid forms.

Does that scare you? I don't see the issue. Maybe there is a known state in shared DNA for an ideal genetic form, which would make for most races being humanoid, but the ones from more hospitable climates have softer features. Harsher planets have humanoids with ridges, horns, heir, flappers, sharp teeth, etc. It is upending science as we know it, but no different than something like sling-shotting around a sun or stuff found in practically every episode. You act like our current concepts of genetics are dogma.  :dunno

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2018, 07:47:27 pm »
Editing out your question before I can reply. Nice.

How does that work in-universe?

My answer didn't consider any in-universe explanation.  Technological limits during TOS , and likely costs of a weekly TV show using modern technology are what keep the majority of the cast and aliens "humanoid".
The Orville (which is an obvious homage to Star Trek) does have 1 non humanoid alien but even it speaks perfect English (as well as Norm McDonald does at least) and has lips.

So I can't really answer your "in universe" question except to say they can only do so much with an explanation when the limit isn't the writing, but in the production.
You can't really believe this is news to anyone. The only way the question of "why so many humanoids?" makes sense is to ask it in-universe. It is implausible that you ever encountered anyone who didn't know the real reason why so many characters on sci-fi shows are humanoid. 
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DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2018, 07:54:13 pm »
What they are effectively arguing is for some sort of genetic front-loading that leads to specific outcomes over billions of years, which flies in the face of everything we know about evolution. They really are arguing for intelligent design.

edited to add: I looked up the episode; they talk about a genetic "program" being embedded in DNA guiding evolution to humanoid forms.

Does that scare you? I don't see the issue. Maybe there is a known state in shared DNA for an ideal genetic form, which would make for most races being humanoid, but the ones from more hospitable climates have softer features. Harsher planets have humanoids with ridges, horns, heir, flappers, sharp teeth, etc. It is upending science as we know it, but no different than something like sling-shotting around a sun or stuff found in practically every episode. You act like our current concepts of genetics are dogma.  :dunno
You're switching back and forth from "Sci-fi always plays fast and loose with real science, so what?" and "This idea is not implausible, given real science", in the same breath, even. As far as you are committed to the second thought, you've apparently got some wrong ideas, but we can't be sure unless you express them more coherently.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 08:37:59 pm by DrakeTungsten »
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DrakeTungsten

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #76 on: August 16, 2018, 08:19:45 pm »
there's a difference between gaining new, more accurate knowledge versus stating stuff that is just blatantly wrong. TNG falls in the latter.
Be careful. He's saying "wrong doesn't matter" and then saying "it's not wrong". It sounds like you're only talking about the latter. I suggest dismissing him when he argues the former.

Quote
It's panspermia, but with a huge element of directed design built in. If the Earth really was seeded via microbes from space, any subsequent evolution of life would be largely directed by the environment.
Guarding against mutation is the more problematic issue with pre-programmed genetics meant to run out over the course of billions of years.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 08:21:34 pm by DrakeTungsten »
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Vigo

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2018, 08:31:02 pm »
You're switching back and forth from "Sci-fi always plays fast and loose with real science, so what?" and "This idea not is implausible, given real science", in the same breath, even. As far as you are committed to the second thought, you've apparently got some wrong ideas, but we can't be sure unless you express them more coherently.


You obviously don't know what the term "Science Fiction" means.   ::)   

Science Fiction, especially in Star Trek sense, doesn't mean it is building stories to support currently accepted scientific theory. Quite the contrary. True Science Fiction explores the science and potential of any idea, often the less accepted the better, but puts a scientific reasoning behind it to show us potential and expand our thinking. Food Replicators, teleporters, warp speed, cloaking devices. They were never based on existing science but there is a reality built around them. Suddenly the impossible can be explored as possible. Which is why I find it hilarious that you both seem to have a hard time accepting that episode.


shponglefan

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2018, 08:35:03 pm »
Does that scare you? I don't see the issue.

It's just silly (i.e. fantasy).

Quote
Maybe there is a known state in shared DNA for an ideal genetic form, which would make for most races being humanoid, but the ones from more hospitable climates have softer features. Harsher planets have humanoids with ridges, horns, heir, flappers, sharp teeth, etc. It is upending science as we know it, but no different than something like sling-shotting around a sun or stuff found in practically every episode. You act like our current concepts of genetics are dogma.  :dunno

It's not that our current knowledge is dogma. It's that we'd have to unlearn a whole lot of what we already know to accommodate such explanations on the show.

It's also ends up being the single most profound in-universe revelation that everyone completely forgets about by the next episode. I mean, finding out that human origins is due to ancient alien genetic engineering. That's huge. And it ends up being a disposable explanation for why aliens in the show are just people with things glued to their faces.

I think more than anything it's the latter point that really bugs me about it. It's an episode that should never have happened. Just like the midichlorian scene in Phantom Menace.

shponglefan

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Re: This is the best scene in all of Star Trek, prove me wrong
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2018, 08:38:37 pm »
Guarding against mutation is the more problematic issue with pre-programmed genetics meant to run out over the course of billions of years.

Not to mention the very reason we're here today is due to numerous extinction events in the past. Lucky thing, that.

  
 

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