Angled joysticks.... just misunderstood?

[wallyt99]

I just cant understand all the hate for them.

If you think people will find them confusing try these simple experiments:

1. Take your TV remote and hold it upside down. Turn the volume down.

2. Take a console controller and squish into the nice corner lounge. Look down.  Does the up arrow point 'up' at the screen - or up relative to your body?

3. Consider that some people may not like smash tv.

[BadMouth]

1. completely unrelated

2. I hate playing at an angle to the TV and without even thinking about it will hold the controller parallel to compensate.

3. Also completely unrelated.  While people mention being able to play smash TV as a benefit of having the joysticks parallel, angling the joysticks would still be wrong if this game did not exist.

It has to do with how people's minds intuitively work.  They can adjust to angled joysticks, but it's like learning to ride one of those bicycles that has had the steering reversed.
You can do it, but it's not as natural and once learned it's hard to switch back and forth.

[yotsuya]

I don't even understand why this is even brought up for discussion.

Look all the multiplayer cabinets out there. Look at the drilling templates that come in many of the manuals. Save for like one or maybe two confirmed cabs, EVERY SINGLE OTHER CABINET has the joystick orientation facing towards the monitor, regardless of the position of the player. I would like to think that they did playtesting and experimenting to see what worked best at some point in time. Then again, they didn't create control panels where the outer players were a foot or more away from the screen, so who knows.

You seem to like experiments. Here's one:

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.

[Xiaou2]

With a remote and or game controler... you can feel which way is "up"  due to the shape of the controller.

 On a wood control panel,  there is no way to tell which way is up.   If you shifted your stance angle,  position. ..etc.. it makes it even worse.

 Add to this. .. tbat the controllers and even a remote... force your digits into the right placement / alignment.   Joysticks have no alignment mechanisms.  The panel edge doent count.

 Tactile feedback is also part of the subconscious mind.  You feel & react in milliseconds. .. without even thinking about it.   If you have to think in an intense & fast faced situation,   you will lose.  Much like in martial arts... if yoh had to think about what to do about the attack.. you would have been hit probably 10 times before the completed thought.

[yotsuya]

With a remote and or game controler... you can feel which way is "up"  due to the shape of the controller.

 On a wood control panel,  there is no way to tell which way is up.   If you shifted your stance angle,  position. ..etc.. it makes it even worse.

 Add to this. .. tbat the controllers and even a remote... force your digits into the rit placement / alignment.   Joysticks have nothing to do this with.

 Tactile feedback is also part of the subconscious mind.  You feel & react in milliseconds. .. without even thinking about it.   If you have to think in an intense & fast faced situation,   you will lose.  Much like in martial arts... if yoh had to think about what to do about the attack.. you would have been hit probably 10 times before the completed thought.

 

Exactly. My own experiment on the TMNT bore this out.

Yeah, you can probably get used to it. But why even put yourself (and your guests who play the game) in that position?

[DeLuSioNal29]

Quick example.  I have a Data East Cab that I plan to MAME.  I'm most definitely NOT going to use the existing layout which has angled joysticks.  It's a pain, but I plan to redo everything on this CP by filling in the holes and re-cutting stuff.  Again, a pain, but worth it.  Angled joysticks are a bad design.

DeLuSioNaL29

[opt2not]

Some people want to learn the hard way.

[pbj]

Nobody will ever notice or care if you can actually twist someone's arm hard enough to get them to play your cabinet.

[eds1275]

I think the biggest thing is how everyone thinks that they need to lose their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- over it. I actually doubt many people have ever even played on angled joysticks!

[yotsuya]

I think the biggest thing is how everyone thinks that they need to lose their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- over it. I actually doubt many people have ever even played on angled joysticks!

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- gets lost during the planning stage, when it should happen.

The only thing I play with an angled joystick is Q*Bert. You can learn to play it on a non-angled setup, but why would you do that to yourself.

[opt2not]

I think the biggest thing is how everyone thinks that they need to lose their ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- over it. I actually doubt many people have ever even played on angled joysticks!

I've built (like a noob), and played on angled joysticks, and so have a lot of my co-workers and friends. The general consensus is that it's hard to adjust your hand-eye coordination due to the fact your perception of what cardinal directions are from standing at an angle is skewed.

It's actually a really important piece of the building process. People tend to build these cabinets for vanity first, then playability second. When it should be the other way around. Optimal functionality in the controls is what is made up of the core of arcade cabinets ergonomics.
It should feel natural to handle the controls, and if you have to second-think what to do in a game, you're toast.
Having people play on angled joysticks makes them have to adjust to it and not innately conform to the control structure. At that point it is an engineering failure if you are forcing the user to interact outside of their natural mindset. It's pretty much the whole shibang around engineering for ergonomics and intuitive design.

[yotsuya]

It's actually a really important piece of the building process. People tend to build these cabinets for vanity first, then playability second. When it should be the other way around. Optimal functionality in the controls is what is made up of the core of arcade cabinets ergonomics.

This is why I have a mancrush on you.

[BadMouth]

I've built (like a noob), and played on angled joysticks, and so have a lot of my co-workers and friends. The general consensus is that it's hard to adjust your hand-eye coordination due to the fact your perception of what cardinal directions are from standing at an angle is skewed.

It's actually a really important piece of the building process. People tend to build these cabinets for vanity first, then playability second. When it should be the other way around. Optimal functionality in the controls is what is made up of the core of arcade cabinets ergonomics.
It should feel natural to handle the controls, and if you have to second-think what to do in a game, you're toast.
Having people play on angled joysticks makes them have to adjust to it and not innately conform to the control structure. At that point it is an engineering failure if you are forcing the user to interact outside of their natural mindset. It's pretty much the whole shibang around engineering for ergonomics and intuitive design.

↑↑↑ This is the correct answer. ↑↑↑
Bookmarking and going to quote the ---fudgesicle--- out of it in the future.

[opt2not]

Well shoot, I'm on a roll today.  Time to sully this up with some trolling posts.

[Malenko]

It's actually a really important piece of the building process. People tend to build these cabinets for vanity first, then playability second. When it should be the other way around. Optimal functionality in the controls is what is made up of the core of arcade cabinets ergonomics.

This is why I have a mancrush on you.

You can have Haruman, I called dibs on opt2not ages ago

[yotsuya]

It's actually a really important piece of the building process. People tend to build these cabinets for vanity first, then playability second. When it should be the other way around. Optimal functionality in the controls is what is made up of the core of arcade cabinets ergonomics.

This is why I have a mancrush on you.

You can have Haruman, I called dibs on opt2not ages ago

Naw, you're HaRuMaN's #1 Homeboy, according to his wife, remember? 

[Malenko]

Naw, you're HaRuMaN's #1 Homeboy, according to his wife, remember? 

Opt is Canadian, so it doesnt matter. Hoes in different area codes bro!

[opt2not]

[yotsuya]

There's a reason why Opt is Canadian Soul Brother #1, and everyone else is playing for second place.

[ChanceKJ]

Meh, i'll take it.

[yotsuya]

Meh, i'll take it.

[BadMouth]

Deleted the trolling pic from my original response.
I originally though OP was a shill account just trying to stir ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up.
After snooping at his previous posts, I realize that he probably has angled player 3 & 4 joysticks and wants to feel vindicated.

[yotsuya]

Deleted the trolling pic from my original response.
I originally though OP was a shill account just trying to stir ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- up.
After snooping at his previous posts, I realize that he probably has angled player 3 & 4 joysticks and wants to feel vindicated.

 

[DeLuSioNal29]

I learned the hard way on my first 4-player panel. But I've since corrected the error.

[dkersten]

I just cant understand all the hate for them.

If you think people will find them confusing try these simple experiments:

Try this if you think it doesn't matter:

Turn your mousepad, mouse, and chair about 25 degrees clockwise.  Now try to navigate a website.

When you have your mouse not aligned with the screen, you end up moving it contrary to where your eye sees the mouse cursor moving.  Sure, you can adjust, but it is awkward and takes time. 

The same goes for a joystick.  You align it with the screen, not with your body.  This way pushing toward the screen is up, if you angle it, pushing toward the screen is actually top left. 

I have a buddy who plays first person shooter games with his mouse inverted like a plane's controls.  That is fine for him, because he trained his brain to have the "world" go down when he pulls the mouse back, rather than his gun, but nobody else could sit at his computer and play it easily.  This is the same concept.  Sure, you can teach yourself to play that way, but why?  Just do it right the first time and it will work for others.

[Vigo]

I've made it clear a number of times I do not think angled joysticks are the problem that people make them out to be, but I am never gonna advocate for them.

Angling joystick solves one problem, but cause many more. I sure as hell won't play a game of robotron or smash tv with angled joysticks. Is it really worth crippling your machine simply for design sake?

Here is another way to think about it. You, as the cabinet owner will most likely be OK with your angled joysticks. You will probably be one of the people that have no problem with the adjustment, or you will just get used to it. Does that guarantee that every other person who comes to your cab will be the same way. All it takes is one person pissed that they can't pull off a move because their joystick is angled to ruin the whole multiplayer experience.

[Vigo]

Try this if you think it doesn't matter:

Turn your mousepad, mouse, and chair about 25 degrees clockwise.  Now try to navigate a website.

When you have your mouse not aligned with the screen, you end up moving it contrary to where your eye sees the mouse cursor moving.  Sure, you can adjust, but it is awkward and takes time. 

I just tried and I have absolutely zero problem with this. It is all just as natural, not even a second needed to adjust. If only left handed mousing was this easy. 

On a serious note, I am forming a theory that this only affects some people. I don't see it as a personal inconvenience but it seems others do. I am interested to hear if this test causes problems for others or not.

[paigeoliver]

Another test you can do.

Find a Gauntlet machine somewhere. Play in the side position. You will see it is easy to control. Now open up the panel (or the config if it is mamed), and rotate those inputs 90 degrees to match the way you are standing. You will see it is now almost impossible to control. QBert makes a good test too, try it standing back at an angle to try to compensate for a non-rotated stick, doesn't help much does it?

The main reason people are rotating sticks is because whoever wrote the crapmame site thought that they were supposed to be that way. They read that, they see other panels with rotated sticks and copy it.

Also folks, it isn't like a gamepad. In a gamepad you are not moving your hand in empty space, you are moving your thumb in relation to your hand.

[yotsuya]

I read somewhere here that in Saint's first edition of his book, they had rotated joysticks rotated. Is that true?

[pbj]

I read somewhere here that in Saint's first edition of his book, they had rotated joysticks rotated. Is that true?

Pretty easy to find the PDF and check for yourself.

[yotsuya]

I read somewhere here that in Saint's first edition of his book, they had rotated joysticks rotated. Is that true?

Pretty easy to find the PDF and check for yourself.

I own the second edition but it's at home. It might be that way in there, too.

[yotsuya]

Apparently, it's in the second version of the book, as well.

And in looking for that previous tidbit, I've found plenty of examples of this site having this same stupid discussion for a long time now. Can I propose that the Anglicans and Non-Anglicans get together and simply ignore any time someone posts this topic for discussion, or at least point them to an existing thread? Otherwise it's the same old thing.

[Slippyblade]

Yeah, Project Arcade has a diagram with rotated sticks.  The replacement copy of the book I got from someone on the boards has a pen sketch over the diagram and margin notes saying "Don't Do This!".  I thought it was hilarious.   

[harveybirdman]

Blame Kaneda

[mgb]

I just cant understand all the hate for them.

If you think people will find them confusing try these simple experiments:

1. Take your TV remote and hold it upside down. Turn the volume down.

2. Take a console controller and squish into the nice corner lounge. Look down.  Does the up arrow point 'up' at the screen - or up relative to your body?

3. Consider that some people may not like smash tv.

I don't know what is more silly,
 This discussion being started or everyone getting in on it.

@ delusional: even though those mounts are angled, I believe the sticks that were in that machine were still straight due to them being counter angled.

[opt2not]

I don't know what is more silly,
 This discussion being started or everyone getting in on it.

Well ain't you so cool

[yotsuya]

To be honest, I don't even bother pointing out angled joysticks on builds to the builders anymore unless they are early in the planning phase . It's just not worth it anymore.

[BadMouth]

To be honest, I get a kick out of raving about it and it's a little tongue in cheek. 

When it comes to most other things (frankenpanels, number of buttons, etc), I say build what you want.

Yeah, Project Arcade has a diagram with rotated sticks.  The replacement copy of the book I got from someone on the boards has a pen sketch over the diagram and margin notes saying "Don't Do This!".  I thought it was hilarious.   

 

[DietCoke]

I'll be the noob here - wait, I already am - the control panel on the cabinet that I've been working on has a surface that is angled at about 13 degrees.  Then I've got an Ultimarc Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit mounted underneath that surface at the same angle.  Does that make the joystick angled? 

And Yots... I'm hurt.

[yotsuya]

I'll be the noob here - wait, I already am - the control panel on the cabinet that I've been working on has a surface that is angled at about 13 degrees.  Then I've got an Ultimarc Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit mounted underneath that surface at the same angle.  Does that make the joystick angled? 

And Yots... I'm hurt.

Why you hurt, bro?

[Vigo]

Can I propose that the Anglicans and Non-Anglicans get together and simply ignore any time someone posts this topic for discussion, or at least point them to an existing thread? Otherwise it's the same old thing.

[PL1]

the control panel on the cabinet that I've been working on has a surface that is angled at about 13 degrees.  Then I've got an Ultimarc Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit mounted underneath that surface at the same angle.  Does that make the joystick angled? 

The red joystick below is what everyone is referring to when they use the term "angled".

(From the FAQ.)


Scott

[DeLuSioNal29]

@ delusional: even though those mounts are angled, I believe the sticks that were in that machine were still straight due to them being counter angled.

Wow, you're right.  I never knew that.  I'm assuming that their special MCA brand joysticks had additional holes to compensate for the angle? (see pic).  Either way, it just proves having straight joysticks is preferred, if they went through all that trouble to correct them.  (I know Malenko needed those special joysticks for his Bad Dudes restore.)

DeLuSioNaL29

[JoeStrout]

Hey, I'll jump in to say that as a complete noob now in the planning stages for a 4-player (Gauntlet/TMNT/Simpsons/Rampage) cabinet, this thread was actually quite useful.

It's been a few years since I've had the opportunity to play any of those in person (on an original machine).  But I had it in my mind that the whole control panel for the side players was rotated.

This thread inspired me to go look more closely at the Gauntlet II control panel layout:


It turns out that the joysticks are not rotated (you can tell by the convenient "Up" markers on the control panel), even though the overall layout (position of buttons relative to joystick) is.

So that's what I'm going to do, too... thanks for everyone here for making me think about it before getting too far in my design!

[DietCoke]

the control panel on the cabinet that I've been working on has a surface that is angled at about 13 degrees.  Then I've got an Ultimarc Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit mounted underneath that surface at the same angle.  Does that make the joystick angled? 

The red joystick below is what everyone is referring to when they use the term "angled".

(From the FAQ.)

Scott

Scott, thanks for the info!

[yotsuya]

Hey, I'll jump in to say that as a complete noob now in the planning stages for a 4-player (Gauntlet/TMNT/Simpsons/Rampage) cabinet, this thread was actually quite useful.

It's been a few years since I've had the opportunity to play any of those in person (on an original machine).  But I had it in my mind that the whole control panel for the side players was rotated.

This thread inspired me to go look more closely at the Gauntlet II control panel layout:


It turns out that the joysticks are not rotated (you can tell by the convenient "Up" markers on the control panel), even though the overall layout (position of buttons relative to joystick) is.

So that's what I'm going to do, too... thanks for everyone here for making me think about it before getting too far in my design!

Kudos to you, brother! 

[RandyT]

Anyone considering using angled joysticks should think about this:

1)  Imagine driving a car, built so that the driver sits in the passenger seat, and the steering column is angled over from where it normally exits the dash.

This is very much the same type of situation.  Sure, you could probably train yourself to drive like this (albeit not very safely) and it would take some time to learn.  But given the option, virtually everyone would choose to have the direction of the turn be directly relative to the front of the vehicle.

2)  Set up Q*Bert so that it uses only one switch per direction on a digital stick.  This will rotate the control scheme 45 degrees.  Now try playing it, and compare the experience to the proper configuration.  Do this once, and you will understand immediately how evil angled joysticks are.

[Malenko]

  (I know Malenko needed those special joysticks for his Bad Dudes restore.)

Ugh, yeah, because of those sticks I took a loss selling the cab. CP made no sense.

[j.fitzenr]

1)  Imagine driving a car, built so that the driver sits in the passenger seat, and the steering column is angled over from where it normally exits the dash.

This is very much the same type of situation.  Sure, you could probably train yourself to drive like this (albeit not very safely) and it would take some time to learn.  But given the option, virtually everyone would choose to have the direction of the turn be directly relative to the front of the vehicle.

I'd be so awesome at driving that car, people would see me, and be like, "look how awesome he is at driving that car."  And then they'd give me high fives. 

Honestly I really want to try angled sticks now.  I totally believe and take everybody's word for them being awful, but damn, if it doesn't make me curious.  What if my brain is weird and having up be relative to how I'm standing makes more sense for me?  What then?  Do I have brain damage, or am I a superhero?  Is it related to the fact that I literally cannot play 3d games without an inverted Y Axis?  Does that mean I should be a pilot?  Should I make sure my plane's yoke is angled at 45 degrees from the front of the aircraft?  ---gosh-darn--- YOU ANGLED JOYSTICKS YOU'VE HURT MY BRAIN

[yotsuya]

You'll do it,  you'll train yourself to use them (or convince yourself that you did), you'll come on here and say "They're not that bad", we'll tell you you're wrong, rinse and repeat.

[DietCoke]

I'll be the noob here - wait, I already am - the control panel on the cabinet that I've been working on has a surface that is angled at about 13 degrees.  Then I've got an Ultimarc Front-Mounted Restrictor Kit mounted underneath that surface at the same angle.  Does that make the joystick angled? 

And Yots... I'm hurt.

Why you hurt, bro?

This is why I have a mancrush on you.

I thought we had something special.  I feel so... used.   

[Vigo]

Anyone considering using angled joysticks should think about this:

1)  Imagine driving a car, built so that the driver sits in the passenger seat, and the steering column is angled over from where it normally exits the dash.

This is very much the same type of situation.  Sure, you could probably train yourself to drive like this (albeit not very safely) and it would take some time to learn.  But given the option, virtually everyone would choose to have the direction of the turn be directly relative to the front of the vehicle.

I'm just gonna say that this is a bad analogy. Why? Because in your wacky racer, your body isn't directly aligned with the steering wheel, only with the windshield. The point of angled controls is to be straight on to the way the controls are facing.

How about this for an analogy to think through. You are sulu controlling the helm on the enterprise. Kirk hates that you are in front of him when he is doing his best acting. He makes you scootch your nav chair over to the side by uhura and fly from there. Do you face your nav chair to the view screen at an angle and hope you can fly straight or face the dirty side wall straight on and crank your neck over to try to get a glimpse of the poorly costumed aliens gunning you down?

(I'll give you the answer. Both options suck balls. If you are p3 or p4, then you are nothing but scum that is fortunate enough to hang off the side of the machine to play a game among the real players. Might as well design a cab that caters to p1 and p2 and let those mooches just be thankful you paid for two extra joysticks.)

[RandyT]

I'm just gonna say that this is a bad analogy. Why? Because in your wacky racer, your body isn't directly aligned with the steering wheel...

Hey! It's my imaginary crapmobile, so assume that it is 

Anyone who has been to a fair has probably seen the the guy with the bicycle which turns the front wheel in the opposite direction of the handlebars.  He basically makes his living watching people fall down on it.  You often see the same guy riding around the fairgrounds on the thing at slow speeds, but put him at the top of a hill, with random stuff popping out in front of him, and he'll probably be missing more teeth before he gets to the bottom.

Under stressful circumstances, we tend to skip the learned translations and revert to intuition, until those translations become intuitive through the development of new neural pathways in the brain.  Learning to ride a motorcycle is a good example of where this is necessary.  Novice motorcyclists often get into accidents when something jumps out in front of them because they instinctively try to turn in the wrong direction (explanation.)  It's not until these motions become intuitive to the individual, that the driver will be ready for the potential hazards of the road.

The point is, the physical dynamics of some things require this kind of learning process, which cannot be easily avoided.  This is not the case with a simple joystick

[eds1275]

my next machine is going to have joystick so angled that p3 and p4 face p1 and 2! And I'll dominate the high score comps from my p3 joystick! The secret is out! ANGLED IS BETTER #ANGLEYOJOYSTICKS4LYFE

[Vigo]

The point is, the physical dynamics of some things require this kind of learning process, which cannot be easily avoided.  This is not the case with a simple joystick

You might be spot on there. Would explain why some of us don't quite experience having to re-adjust but others fail for quite a while. Some of us are probably just more adjusted prepared for the joystick mechanics, while those just relying on their basic instincts to play flunk out.