4-8 switchable joysticks

[deadmoney5]

Now that I only have a 4-way bartop, I am missing a lot of the 8 way games in MAME.  Is there any decent 4-8 way switchable joystick that has come out recently?  I had the ones from Ultimarc, but I didn't like them..too stiff.  I haven't tried the Omni one yet.

And no, I don't have room for another bartop

[Le Chuck]

The Omnis from GGG are great sticks.  You can automate them yourself pretty easily or hit up RandyT through PM and see if he'll put together a Robo kit for you if you ask nicely. 

They have a decent throw, feel good in both modes, and generally fit the bill for what you're looking for.  RandyT even recently added the original Omni back up that is top-switchable. 

[IAmDotorg]

Now that I only have a 4-way bartop, I am missing a lot of the 8 way games in MAME.  Is there any decent 4-8 way switchable joystick that has come out recently?  I had the ones from Ultimarc, but I didn't like them..too stiff.  I haven't tried the Omni one yet.

And no, I don't have room for another bartop

Don't the Ultimarc ones have alternate springs you can get for them?

I thought I remembered seeing both shaft and spring options.

[mvolke1]

Now that I only have a 4-way bartop, I am missing a lot of the 8 way games in MAME.  Is there any decent 4-8 way switchable joystick that has come out recently?  I had the ones from Ultimarc, but I didn't like them..too stiff.  I haven't tried the Omni one yet.

And no, I don't have room for another bartop

I know you mention no Ultimarc, but I've had great luck with mine. They last me ten years in my cocktail, which I've now gutted and am reusing the Ultimarc sticks for my new bartop project.

[deadmoney5]

I have the Magstik Plus and in 4-way mode they are ok..albeit a very short throw.  But they wouldn't work too well in 8 way for me at all.  Two switches would be pressed at the same time sometimes.  I think that's why stiffer switches were used.  When i switched to softer switches, I ran into trouble.

[mvolke1]

I never changed them. Kept them exactly as is from Ultimarc. If you still have the original switches, maybe you can give it a shot.

They do have a short throw, but to me, it's like any controller. Once you get used to it you don't really think about it. They did take some getting used to, though, I'll admit. They're not for everyone. Also, they're the only 4/8 way sticks I've ever used. I've been watching this thread for other opinions.

[EMDB]

I have the Magstik Plus [...] But they wouldn't work too well in 8 way for me at all.  Two switches would be pressed at the same time sometimes.

That is what 8-way is all about 

[yotsuya]

I have the Magstik Plus [...] But they wouldn't work too well in 8 way for me at all.  Two switches would be pressed at the same time sometimes.

That is what 8-way is all about 

Not if you're playing a 4-way game. 

[Vigo]

I feel the same way about the mag-sticks. way too stiff and not enough throw. I have been meaning to try the servo sticks. Are they any better on this front?

[Le Chuck]

I haven't tried Andy's servos but yes, from what I've heard, the travel is the same as the majority of clicky sticks out there.  The Omni2 feels just like the Zipppy, which I like for pretty much all I've used it for. 

[deadmoney5]

I have the Magstik Plus [...] But they wouldn't work too well in 8 way for me at all.  Two switches would be pressed at the same time sometimes.

That is what 8-way is all about 

HA..I meant the opposite.  Sometimes both switches WOULDN'T click down at the same time.

[dkersten]

I am far from an expert on different brands, but have you used the j-stiks with the longer shafts and done a full undermount?  With the longer shafts they are far less stiff and have a longer throw.  I use the stiffer springs and they are still way more loose feeling than with the standard spring and standard length shaft.  And the u360's with the top mount restrictors and long shafts are very smooth, got a nice medium throw, and very little resistance.  Moving the restrictor from 8-way to 4-way mode makes a world of difference in 4-way games.  And you can dial in how it reads 8-way in the software.  I found games like metal slug way easier to play on the u360's than on the j-stiks (servostiks).  But with all the added accessories, they are spendy.

[mgb]

I'm really not sure why anyone wants long throw on a 4-way stick.
To me, a 4-way should be tight and quick.

I found the omni2 to have too much throw in 4 way and I'm getting a little tired of my sanwa Jlw for 4 way.
The jlw's throw is just slightly less than the omni2's

[yotsuya]

I'm really not sure why anyone wants long throw on a 4-way stick.
To me, a 4-way should be tight and quick.

Agreed.

[Vigo]

I'm really not sure why anyone wants long throw on a 4-way stick.
To me, a 4-way should be tight and quick.

Agreed.

Yeah but in this case, it isn't due to the short quick shaft, but the stick is stiff with an overly strong pushback.

[mgb]

I'm really not sure why anyone wants long throw on a 4-way stick.
To me, a 4-way should be tight and quick.

Agreed.

Yeah but in this case, it isn't due to the short quick shaft, but the stick is stiff with an overly strong pushback.

Yeah, that would be a problem

[RandyT]

The issue with any switchable 4/8 way stick is that they usually need to have a square restrictor which rotates to diamond for 4-way play.  The relative size of the restrictor and actuator, and the switch position, is a very delicate balancing act which the designer must perform.  Even when these are ideal, there are limitations which can't be overcome.  As indicated above, good 4-way sticks are physically restricted, and have a short, quick actuation.  Even the best switchable will have a longer throw in 4-way, than in 8-way, thus the shorter one tries to make the throw in 4-way, the more truncated the 8-way throw becomes.

Switchable joysticks, either physically or digitally, are a compromise.  The laws of geometry and physics pretty much dictate that a joystick which can do both, will do neither extremely well, or do one well at the expense of the other.  They do have a place on many a panel, but expectations need to be measured by what is actually possible, given those limitations.

All that being said, a very good "do-all" stick is possible.  But it would require a fairly complicated mechanical contraption, coupled with some digital technologies, to pull it off.  By time one considers the cost, possible reliability issues and complexities of use, it would probably make more sense, for those looking for the best possible performance, to plant a proper 4-way joystick on the panel somewhere.

[mgb]

The issue with any switchable 4/8 way stick is that they usually need to have a square restrictor which rotates to diamond for 4-way play.  The relative size of the restrictor and actuator, and the switch position, is a very delicate balancing act which the designer must perform.  Even when these are ideal, there are limitations which can't be overcome.  As indicated above, good 4-way sticks are physically restricted, and have a short, quick actuation.  Even the best switchable will have a longer throw in 4-way, than in 8-way, thus the shorter one tries to make the throw in 4-way, the more truncated the 8-way throw becomes.

Switchable joysticks, either physically or digitally, are a compromise.  The laws of geometry and physics pretty much dictate that a joystick which can do both, will do neither extremely well, or do one well at the expense of the other.  They do have a place on many a panel, but expectations need to be measured by what is actually possible, given those limitations.

All that being said, a very good "do-all" stick is possible.  But it would require a fairly complicated mechanical contraption, coupled with some digital technologies, to pull it off.  By time one considers the cost, possible reliability issues and complexities of use, it would probably make more sense, for those looking for the best possible performance, to plant a proper 4-way joystick on the panel somewhere.

Very well stated and true.
   The perfect 4/8 way will never be commercially available,
The best solutions will have to be home brewed

[jimmer]

Like Randy says, automatic  4way/8way is possible, but expensive. Especially if you want unrestriced (pun) choice of gate shape.

I have separate panels myself, but if I had only 1 panel I would make it tiltable and choose a joystick that you can remove the restrictor and replace it with a different shape.

On which note, I've started producing restrictors for various joysticks. I'm still testing what shapes/dimensions  are best. I've done LS32 and JLF tests so far, JLW will be easy to add.

I'm very into what I call the octoshape or octosquare, which is between octagon and square and I think the fighters will like it.

[LightningBolt]

The issue with any switchable 4/8 way stick is that they usually need to have a square restrictor which rotates to diamond for 4-way play.  The relative size of the restrictor and actuator, and the switch position, is a very delicate balancing act which the designer must perform.  Even when these are ideal, there are limitations which can't be overcome.  As indicated above, good 4-way sticks are physically restricted, and have a short, quick actuation.  Even the best switchable will have a longer throw in 4-way, than in 8-way, thus the shorter one tries to make the throw in 4-way, the more truncated the 8-way throw becomes.

Switchable joysticks, either physically or digitally, are a compromise.  The laws of geometry and physics pretty much dictate that a joystick which can do both, will do neither extremely well, or do one well at the expense of the other.  They do have a place on many a panel, but expectations need to be measured by what is actually possible, given those limitations.

All that being said, a very good "do-all" stick is possible.  But it would require a fairly complicated mechanical contraption, coupled with some digital technologies, to pull it off.  By time one considers the cost, possible reliability issues and complexities of use, it would probably make more sense, for those looking for the best possible performance, to plant a proper 4-way joystick on the panel somewhere.

Would you consider happy ms pacman reunion stick a true 4 way?

[mgb]

The way I see it, for one stick to have smooth 8-way circular motion and be able to also have nice tight 4 way short throw restriction as needed, it would take an extended shaft with a separate plate of switches and restrictor that would be pulled in as needed.

[dkersten]

I think an octagonal restrictor on a programmable stick like the u360 is the best compromise I have found so far..

[RandyT]

Would you consider happy ms pacman reunion stick a true 4 way?

Yes.  It is physically restricted to 4 directions, and can activate only one switch at a time.  By virtue of the very short shaft, it's able to change directions fairly quickly.  Using a longer than stock shaft would degrade this ability, as the throw at the knob end would increase relative to the length, so that is something to be aware of when considering longer versions of this particular stick.

I think an octagonal restrictor on a programmable stick like the u360 is the best compromise I have found so far..

Octagonal restriction seems to be one of those "love 'em or hate 'em" cases where user preference is concerned.  If you "love 'em", then you'd view them as a way to help guide the stick into an intended direction, regardless of the type of game being played, and overlook the lack of smooth motion in 8-way games.   If you "hate 'em", then you'd view them as being ineffective in 4-way, as they don't offer true, one-switch-at-a-time actuation, and be annoyed with the clunky 8-way motion.  Digital restriction can help a bit with these in 4-way, but the typical octagonal restrictor would require an extended throw to engage, leaving a range in the center for mis-steps in the wrong direction.  In the realm of 4/8-way switchables, it always comes down to the adage of "picking your poison".

[Le Chuck]

Seems to me a circle to square rotation mechanism would offer a nice stick for those that need to be able to play Robotron on the same stick as Pac-man.

Something like a four leaf mechanical iris with limit stops so the leafs only make a square on closure. 

 

Should only be like $100 a stick or so

[RandyT]

Definitely an interesting idea.  My only concern with something like this would be that the forces exerted against the iris aperture by the stick, would be transferred in the opposite direction of the forces used to close it.  In other words, a means to lock it in place once closed would probably be a necessity.  This is something not usually of much concern with the rotating square approach, where a little friction is usually sufficient to keep things in the proper orientation.

[mvolke1]

They do have a place on many a panel, but expectations need to be measured by what is actually possible, given those limitations.

Randy nails it here.

I have the Ultimarc Magstick Plus. It's not perfect for both 4 and 8, but it gets the job done. I like it, but that's me. I'd rather have the switching capability from the top of the panel and sacrifice some of the 8-way play in the stick. I prefer classic games, so I like the short, tight throw of the stick in four way.

What all of it comes down to is preference.

[mvolke1]

Randy,

Do you still make your 4/8 way switchable? I didn't see it on GGG.

[RandyT]

Do you still make your 4/8 way switchable? I didn't see it on GGG.

Which one?   We have a very limited stock of the original Omni-Stik Prodigy left.  The Suzo 500 stick on which it is based, has gone extinct, so once these are gone, there will be no more.  The OMNI2 has taken it's place, and is below panel switching only.

[deadmoney5]

They do have a place on many a panel, but expectations need to be measured by what is actually possible, given those limitations.

Randy nails it here.

I have the Ultimarc Magstick Plus. It's not perfect for both 4 and 8, but it gets the job done. I like it, but that's me. I'd rather have the switching capability from the top of the panel and sacrifice some of the 8-way play in the stick. I prefer classic games, so I like the short, tight throw of the stick in four way.

What all of it comes down to is preference.

are you still using the original switches with it?  Maybe I will try it out again with the original switches to see if I can get used to it.  Unfortunately I LOVE the GGG -Pac Pro leaf that I am using now.

[mvolke1]

are you still using the original switches with it?  Maybe I will try it out again with the original switches to see if I can get used to it.  Unfortunately I LOVE the GGG -Pac Pro leaf that I am using now.
[/quote]

I'm still using the original switches. Maybe going back could help.

[Grasshopper]

The Suzo 500 stick on which it is based, has gone extinct, so once these are gone, there will be no more.

Really? I'm quite shocked about that. I had no idea.

Have you still got any Suzo 500s left with red or blue handles? I don't see any on your site.

[Le Chuck]

Definitely an interesting idea.  My only concern with something like this would be that the forces exerted against the iris aperture by the stick, would be transferred in the opposite direction of the forces used to close it.  In other words, a means to lock it in place once closed would probably be a necessity.  This is something not usually of much concern with the rotating square approach, where a little friction is usually sufficient to keep things in the proper orientation.

Well the iris is just illustrative for the idea in this case.  It would be much easier to do a two part insert where the square bits got pushed together and was flush with the circle restrictor.  That would take locking mech and could likely be one on the cheap but if the square bits slid together then sat down in the circular restrictor that would work great.  The mechanism would have to move a 1/4" or so along the Z axis during rotation.  Again, probably stupid expensive to produce tho.   

[mgb]

Definitely an interesting idea.  My only concern with something like this would be that the forces exerted against the iris aperture by the stick, would be transferred in the opposite direction of the forces used to close it.  In other words, a means to lock it in place once closed would probably be a necessity.  This is something not usually of much concern with the rotating square approach, where a little friction is usually sufficient to keep things in the proper orientation.

Well the iris is just illustrative for the idea in this case.  It would be much easier to do a two part insert where the square bits got pushed together and was flush with the circle restrictor.  That would take locking mech and could likely be one on the cheap but if the square bits slid together then sat down in the circular restrictor that would work great.  The mechanism would have to move a 1/4" or so along the Z axis during rotation.  Again, probably stupid expensive to produce tho.

That's basically one of the ideas I've had in my head.
I understand it would be too expensive for manufacturing but that's why I would
Think it'd be a home brew, one off type of deal

[keilmillerjr]

Restrictors sliding up/down the shaft to contact the "actuator" portion would work. Similar fashion to transmissions. Would I spend the bucks to do this? Nah.

I started with the magsticks for my project. Not for me. Got JLF's and making an excellent 8-way machine.