Building the masterpiece

[dkersten]

In the past several months since I started really getting involved in this hobby, I have asked for a lot of feedback and ideas, and I am really happy to get unfettered opinions on various elements or ideas.  I also see a surprising number of new people show up asking for the same sorts of advice or feedback.  One thing I have noticed though is that everyone who has been doing this for a while is looking for the next masterpiece, the next "Blip" or "R-Pod" (or a dozen other insanely great cabinets I have had the honor to read about here).  I suppose that after a while, seeing just "another mame cabinet" being built is kind of boring, and often the advice reflects this. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the flow of ideas, and most of what I have read is being filed away for "some day"... The ideas presented, often when something fairly basic was asked to be critiqued or suggested, seem to me to be really advanced ideas, or at the least based on the fact that what is being asked for has already been "done to death".  That is cool if it is the 14th cabinet the person is building and they are also tired of those things that were cool or unique last year or the year before and want something really new.  But for most new people in this hobby, what was cool and new for the veteran 10 years ago is cool and new for us NOW.  Heck, just having a cabinet of our own is pretty cool in our own worlds.

If I have any negative feedback about any advice given here it is that it is often given as if everyone asking has already "been there done that" and shouldn't be allowed to do something that has already been done.  Kind of a hipster attitude that can be overwhelming in the beginning. 

But that isn't really the reason I started this thread.  I was thinking more along the lines of the idea that everyone seems to be expecting (or hoping anyway) for another masterpiece to blow them away.  That got me thinking about why I didn't just sit down and spend a few months planning something out, perfecting the artwork, then deciding that perfect wasn't good enough and taking it to the next level.  Why I don't spend months building a cab instead of only a few weeks.  Why I don't mock things up a half dozen times as I go, just to see if I am perfectly satisfied with every minute detail.  Why I don't spend months and months working to achieve the perfect finish, the perfect level of craftsmanship, etc. 

The thing is, I am the kind of guy who WANTS to do that, at least some day.  But that isn't why I am building cabinets, YET.  That isn't why I build furniture, or write, or anything else I enjoy doing.  Right now if I can do something and experience something I am interested in, and be reaping the benefits of it in a few weeks or a month or two, that works for me, even if it isn't groundbreaking or even up to the standards I would LIKE to push myself to achieve.  I am satisfied enough with what I am cranking out that I don't really need anything cooler.  (YET)

I guess I see myself as working on a dozen different masterpieces in my mind, none of which I will realize for quite some time.  Some day I will sit down and start designing the perfect arcade cabinet.  I don't mean conceptualize it and crank it out in a few months, I mean design it, with every tiny detail, exactly as I would like to have it, and dedicate all my free time to doing so before ever taking the next step.  Then I will take that time to build one small part, mock it up, refine it, make adjustments, and perfect it.  And while it might take 500+ hours, in the end I will have a finished product I will never be able to look at and say "Yeah, it's good but it could have been better." 

But right now if I had the time and forbearance to do that, I would be putting it into other projects I have been working on in my head for much longer.  I wrote a book about 6 years ago and I started a rewrite on it a couple years ago, and I have 99% of the rewrite done in my head, but it will take me at least 300 hours to complete it on paper.  If I had that kind of time, it wouldn't be to build a perfect arcade cab, I already have one that is good enough for now, I would spend that time finishing the book.

Then there is the more pressing projects that I should be doing or need to get done (which is why I haven't finished the book, lol).  Heck, I have 3 more cabs to build before the end of October.  I have a bathroom that I want to renovate before Christmas as well as 3 bedrooms I want to get new windows in and repaint and do minor renovation to.  I have one piece of furniture I really NEED to build soon for my theater, and a half dozen or more others that I have been meaning to get to for the last decade. 

The bottom line is that for me anyway, my "masterpiece" will probably have to wait for a couple more decades when I finally retire and have the time and resources to do what I really want.  Perhaps I will get to doing something a little more "out of the box" this winter, but it is doubtful with everything else I want to do.  Until then, this is practice, and while I won't turn out a crappy product, I am not taking the time to create that new project that I and many others would like to see.  To me, a masterpiece is the culmination of all your skill and ability, all your experience and trial and error.  Some people can sit down at any point in their life and create their masterpiece, and some can create more than one and at the end of their life have a portfolio of masterpieces that ANYONE would have to respect.  I have a TON of respect for those people.  And I know that someday I can take a shot at building something that wows even those "masters", and maybe even succeed.  It just won't be in those 3 cabs I have to build in the coming months, and once I build one that I can say is my best effort, I probably will never build another.

I am not here to say anything in particular, just some reflection really.  Like I said, I love the free flow of ideas, and while some here are more critical of the efforts of those still practicing, I think anyone who has the balls to come here and post their projects for people who have been doing it far longer than they have to critique deserves my respect just as much as those who have the perseverance, skill, and experience to create those masterpieces.

 

[Ond]

I’m going to get in early on this thread before all the ‘usuals’ do.  Heh, they’re all getting their beauty sleep anyway.  I sense some frustration and maybe a bit of defensiveness in what you say, and that’s ok, no criticism on my part, but it did make me think a bit as well.
   
It’s good to have new keen blood in the forum , it drives discussion, ideas and attracts others including some like me who are more like ghosts, floating around, or maybe vampires feeding and….., anyway,  I digress.  If you’re new and keen and fairly verbose you’re bound to attract veterans and experts.  That’s why we are here, the constructive feedback and all that.  It can very useful and a great source of knowledge and inspiration.  Other times it can feel a bit like you've joined the committee that came up with the camel, when you wanted a racehorse.

I think the reality is it’s all practise for all of us, even those on the so-called quest for a masterpiece.  If you get too caught up in planning and analysis the fun goes out of it and it becomes more like a job, ugh!

I was also reminded of something I read recently called The Dude and the Zen Master, which is a series of conversations between Jeff Bridges and his (Zen Master) friend Bernie Glassman.  They basically philosophize about life, Zen and relate it back to the movie the Big Lebowski.

There’s a discussion where Bridges talks about learning to bowl for the movie, about being a perfectionist and concentrating so hard on the act of bowling, the approach, the grip, the stance, the swing that he could get all twisted up and not bowl at all (Ironic since you never see him bowl in the movie anyhow).   In the end on expert advice, he was told to just “throw the ---smurfing--- ball” by relaxing and just throwing the ball everything in bowling gets better especially the enjoyment levels!

So, as to the masterpiece – phooey, just throw the ---smurfing--- ball!  The idea is of course more broadly applicable to life in general, throw yourself into whatever it is you want to do with passion, expect to make a shitload of mistakes and persevere anyway.  If along the way you get some grand design inspiration, your opus, your masterpiece, then great, go with that too!

Some of the most popular builds on here have been simple classic designs, cleanly built, capturing all that great arcade energy that many of us remember with ne’re a glowing LED, rotating watchamjigit or swivelling thingamabob to be seen.

The wheels are turning in my head Dave, a voice is whispering, "not nylon gears, straight cut alloy, faster, smoother, stronger mmmmm". 

[yotsuya]

I dunno, speaking for myself, and just myself, the machines that blow me away are the ones that look like they could be sitting in a classic arcade in 1982 next to a Pac-Man or Space Invaders and not something that was made for the Dave & Busters crowd. I'm more into cabs with great functionality than flashy form. There are many, many projects that people love that quite honestly do nothing for me because of the attachment and view of these machines I have growing up with them- I would never say anything because that's my taste and I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. Also, I really do admire the craftsmanship on a lot of these projects even if, in my opinion, i can't warm up to it as an arcade cabinet.

Like Ond said - don't worry about it being perceived as a Masterpiece. That shouldn't be your incentive. Can it play Galaga? That's what you should strive for.

[jennifer]

     I build some seriously distressed cabs, things most wouldn't even recognize as games.... And its taken everything from me, up to and including family and friends, Ive been burnt, shocked, flat out electrocuted, Ive gone for days on the road chasing parts with nothing more than popcorn and diet soda, Ive got metal shavings embedded in my feet, Cut, bruised, and lungs full of paint, even had a game fall on me once, and pretty much left for dead....Why?, Because when that "Masterpiece" gets loaded for its new home I know in my heart it will outlive us ALL, and be there for the future generations.

[JDFan]

The thing with the "Masterpiece" build is whose masterpiece is it ?? Just like artists in real life many times their "masterpiece" works are never considered that until several decades after their death and the artist that made it was never appreciated during his lifetime and other artists living at the time usually ridiculed his work.  It's just the way things go when Human opinions are involved - As the old saying goes "One mans trash is anothers Treasure"

For the most part the feedback given is given in the hope of being helpful or trying to help avoid doing something that they have seen or done that didn't work out for them but you still have to be able to take all of those opinions offered, the praise and criticism, and filter out the nuggets that will help you build the "Masterpiece" you want. Use the responses to help along the way and filter out which you follow and which you store away for the next project but in the end only you know your vision and only you can follow the path that gets you there. In the end the one's that do build their "Masterpiece" all do one thing - as Ond pointed out - They Build the F'ing thing. 

[Le Chuck]

I don't think the community pushes newer better on everybody.  I do think the community, especially a core set of regulars, doesn't like to see new users reinvent the wheel.  Building a nice cab or even a sufficient cab isn't reiventing the wheel - but doing it by making all the mistakes we've already made for "you" is.  I don't really have a lot of interest in watching somebody stumble through a build because they didn't take the time to look left and right but I have a lot of interest in watching somebody stumble through a build because these things are tricky and they're trying to do a good job.  I've been doing this for more than a decade and a lot of others are much longer in the tooth than me.  They're bound to get a little crusty, that's part of the charm. 

I also can't do walls of text anymore.  If it's more than a paragraph without pictures I usually keep moving.  God bless those that don't tho.  If I missed the mark on the topic it's because I didn't read much beyond the first line of each para. 

[Malenko]

Im putting an altered button layout on an NBA Jam CP and bolting it to an MK4 cab, and Ive been on this site for over 15 years. There is no ultimate masterpiece, there is no perfect cab.  There are tons of great cabs , from the large ones like Nephasth's Two Headed Beast ( http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,108719.msg1313058.html ) to the tiny ones like LeChuck's Star Wars micro ( http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117874.0.html ). Every cabs has its positives and negatives, and no two people have the exact same idea of what a cab should be.

More often than not, the advice given here is just to keep "newbs" from making costly mistakes that could make them give up on the cab they started. CoryBee is a shining example of someone who came into the hobby pretty clueless, listened to advice, and became one of the most prolific builders this place has ever seen.


All that being said, if planning a cab for 6 months before you build it makes you happy and gives you the confidence to get the build just right, then GO FOR IT! I'll be here following along and trying to help when I can 

[dkersten]

I admittedly do sometimes feel initially defensive with criticism but I try to stop myself and step back and look at it from their perspective, which is really what the feedback is good for, and afterwards I appreciate it a lot more.  I was trying hard not to be defensive here though, I am quite happy with the feedback I get, but I do start to wonder about how some other newbies take it when they throw out an idea and it gets jumped on for being too generic. 

I guess I look at it this way:  A black cab with blue trim, blue lightning on the CP, random characters spread throughout or grouped together to show how the cab will play it all, a frankenpanel with everything but the kitchen sink, their last name with "cade" at the end for a name, and at least two cupholders is, to someone who just discovered this hobby, pretty damn awesome.  In their world, it makes them incredibly unique, and they will enjoy every aspect of it.  But to most of the veterans here, it's a joke, and not just a joke, but the worst kind of joke.  But the thing is, most people who are veterans used to look at that as pretty awesome and most of them built something like that at one point.  Sure, looking back is like a Lamborghini owner looking at some kid with his Honda with the fart can and park bench on the trunk lid, but to that kid, he has the coolest car in the world.

So that person starts asking for advice, and sooner or later you see someone telling this first timer that he should edge light his CP and have it laser etched on a CNC and control it with an arduino that is triggered off of mamehooker, but not until he has done his own custom build of mame and designed his own frontend from scratch.  I am just waiting for the suggestion of a robot arm to come out of the top of the cab to play the second player when nobody else is around.  I realize that it gets old telling each and every noob to make sure his joysticks are straight and to use a slagcoin layout, but it is what it is.

And really, in the end that guy doesn't get what he wanted in the first place:  A back and blue cab with lightning bolts coming from the trackball and his own name on a cab. 

Maybe that guy needs to build one of those so he can decide for himself if he likes that style or not.  Maybe to him it isn't a mistake.. Just sayin..

Anyway, I thought it was good food for thought, not so much as a criticism to the advice that is given here (which is mostly really good advice), but more to think about the perspective of the noob in the hobby.   If that noob ends up sticking around after building their first 7 joystick control panel, they will likely settle into a style all their own and someday be posting a thread about their first "masterpiece".

[Malenko]

Blue lightning, its the new white marble contact paper. My first MAME cab had white marble contact paper, my first CP had purple lightning.  The general consensus is to theme your cab, or keep it super generic. I always hated that white marble contact paper, but I didn't know any better at the time. After getting more comfortable with Photoshop and the like, I actually made some fairly neat ones. Mortal Kabinet (MKII theme) and my fave, the ShoRyuKade (Street Fighter theme).  Keeping newbs from using the lightning is just keeping them from having to spend even more money in the future to reskin the cab.

There is no reason to have an orgy of clip art on a control panel or marquee. Not knowing you have bad taste is no excuse to have bad taste =)

Frankenpanels....... loaded topic.  More often than not, a newb will design a huge expensive panel with all the control they can think of. After a few months they realize they really only use, say the Street Fighter layout and the track ball. So then, they have to make a new panel, and try to either sell off the remaining controls, or make swappable panels, or put em in a box never to be seen again. Advice against a frankenpanel is usually along the lines of "what will you actually play VS what you think you will play" Technically speaking, my latest panel is a frankenpanel:



But its 100% functional and works for me. I know that the majority of the time only 1 player will be utilized, but I wanted to have the rest there for some 2 player SMASH TV and some 4 player ninja turtles (and Open Ice!).  So while I'm making the cab for me, I still listen to what other builders have done and what pitfalls to avoid.

You seem to be saying "dont give newbs advice, they are building the cab they want!" which IS a valid statement, unless they are asking for advice. A lot of forums out there are particularly harsh to newbs, and I don't think this forum fits that modus operandi

[keilmillerjr]

I have multiple projects, and a budget. My projects usually take a few years to complete. Nothing wrong with that. Currently my rx7 turbo and zx7 ninja comes before my arcade project. It's just how life is.

[yotsuya]

And really, in the end that guy doesn't get what he wanted in the first place:  A back and blue cab with lightning bolts coming from the trackball and his own name on a cab. 

Then if that's what they really want, then they should build it. But if they ask..."What do you think...", why not tell the honestly?

My first project, I built a frankenpanel. Thankfully, I didn't maim the cabinet it was going on to make it fit, but instead I changed my expectations to fit the cab I had. I made all the mistakes, and through experience I learned to correct them. And trust me, they ARE mistakes. Those of us that have been here HAVE made them, and that's why we share that wisdom.

I'm not a fan of the "Gee, you did a great job, gold star buddy" approach to this hobby. There's a lot of time, money, and other resources involved. If the lessons I've learned can save someone future grief, I'm happy to share. I would say 99% of us give that kind of feedback not to haze newbies, but to try and steer them in the best (notice I didn't say right) direction.

Having said that, if someone posts their project without a "What do you think?" attached to it, I've learned to just stay quiet. It avoids the inevitable butt-hurt. It's built already, what can you do?

[SavannahLion]

dkersten, don't get the advice from morons who think that a driving cab isn't a driving cab unless it A: uses authentic arcade parts or B: uses authentic automotive parts or C: both (you morons know who you are) mixed up with the advice from people who are genuinely trying to offer help (even if it does feel like you're being slighted) in order to prevent you from making the same mistake they experienced.

If you get 30 people in a room, you'll get 31 ---uvulas--- opinions. It's just the way it is.

It's like what JDFan says, if you can filter out all the crap, you'll get nuggets of really good information.

If you don't want to read what people are saying that's not a problem. There are different ways to really get good information without all the fluff.

Look at some of the worst cabs imaginable (CrapMAME was really good for this until it got castrated) on what not to do. I do this a lot in everything I do. I look at other peoples mistakes and learn from them. I had a friend insist on adding a "flying wing" CP on my Hang-On until I told him to ---fudgesicle--- off, because I knew what one looked like from the Centipede conversion on CrapMAME. Interestingly, I tracked down about half of those cabs and those owners were very proud of their debaucheries, I believe one even won a MAMEY. So this goes back to the whole opinion thing.

Or... take a look at some of the God-like works like OND's. After you finish crying in the corner (as I most often do) I pull out little nuggets of good ideas from his (and others like him) logs. There's a lot of techniques I'll never do for a variety of reasons but every so often, there something good to be had.

Finally, look for similar projects. If you're doing a bartop, don't look at cocktails (unless yours is a bartop cocktail ) . One popped up not too long ago that had a few things I didn't particularly like, confirmed a few suspicions I had, and more importantly, solved a few things I've been trying to hammer out for months. I was sooooo close to the solutions but I couldn't hammer them out but there, in that thread, the solutions elegantly presented itself.

Oh.... and if you want to build a driving cab by chopping a car in half and using it, feel free. That's a project many of us wanted to see completed.

You seem to be saying "dont give newbs advice, they are building the cab they want!" which IS a valid statement, unless they are asking for advice.

No it's not. Anytime you present your work, idea, whatever on a forum, you're automatically asking for advice. This is the same as publishing a work, or giving a speech or any media of choice. You will get advice, even if you don't explicitly ask for it. You will get criticism and if you're lucky, you might get praise. The problem is too may people (both newbs and the STFW/RTFM crowd) forget and get all butt hurt when the swarms come down.

I agree, compared to many forums, this one isn't all too bad. Try getting a question answered on a C or Linux mailing list. Yeesh...

[Malenko]

Whats funny is I edited my post. Originally I had "You seem to be saying "dont give newbs advice, they are building the cab they want!" which IS a valid statement, unless they are asking for advice. By posting on here they are in a way asking for feedback and or advice"

but I made the edit thinking my point would be lost, since some people expect the "gold star for participating". But I completely agree with you. 

[yotsuya]

Oh, and I just have to address this quote in particular...

So that person starts asking for advice, and sooner or later you see someone telling this first timer that he should edge light his CP and have it laser etched on a CNC and control it with an arduino that is triggered off of mamehooker, but not until he has done his own custom build of mame and designed his own frontend from scratch.

I have NEVER seen anyone do this with a first timer. Most of the time, it's the first timer wanting to edge light his CP and have it laser etched on a CNC and control it with an arduino that is triggered off of mamehooker as well as wanting to design his own frontend from scratch. I agree that community feature creep is something that seems to occur here, but usually it's with an established person's project.

[shponglefan]

I don't think the community pushes newer better on everybody.  I do think the community, especially a core set of regulars, doesn't like to see new users reinvent the wheel.  Building a nice cab or even a sufficient cab isn't reiventing the wheel - but doing it by making all the mistakes we've already made for "you" is.

In my experience, there are certain members that go beyond just trying to warn others of potential pitfalls.  They seem to have an ideological view of how arcade machines should be built and any deviation from that should not exist in their eyes.

[Generic Eric]

It is not the greatest MAME cab in the world; It is just a tribute.

[dkersten]

In my experience, there are certain members that go beyond just trying to warn others of potential pitfalls.  They seem to have an ideological view of how arcade machines should be built and any deviation from that should not exist in their eyes.

Thank you, that sums up the only negative aspect of what I was trying to get across.   

Overall, most of the advice I see is awesome, and I really like the community here, even with the occasional harsh criticism.

I certainly don't want to say that any noob coming here that wants to do lightning bolts and 7 joysticks shouldn't be warned that lightning bolts are overdone and 6 of those 7 joysticks will never be used.  But if he still decides to do that, then you just gained another community member who may one day make that awesome stenciled space theme you really want to see, or that over the top yet subtle and well executed work of art.  If they don't stick around, then they will never realize how overdone their marble contact paper is, and that person's kids will still love it because daddy made it for them and their friends don't have one like it. 

I guess building a cab for someone else makes me see how their personal tastes might vary from my own but it doesn't mean I can't build them a sweet cab.  They might WANT the lightning bolts and blue lighting, and regardless of how much I don't want to do that for them, I will do it because it isn't for me.  I try to see other people's projects the same way. 

As for the community pressure to add features, I see it, not so blatantly perhaps, but I still see it.. I don't want to give examples because I LIKE the free flow of ideas.  But when I was first posting about my projects I certainly felt like if I used lightning bolts and blue lighting I wouldn't be accepted into the community.  I still did what I wanted to do, including slapping a bunch of arcade characters all over my CP, having too many controls (that actually do get used regularly, but I didn't go TOO overboard), and my kids love it and my friends are jealous over it.  Granted, my second cab was far cooler even in my eyes, and some day I might rebuild my own (or just sell it and start over), but it was still a great experience building it, and if I had stopped right there and never read another post here or made another arcade, I would be just as satisfied with what I started with as I was on day one.  And the truth is, I got some great advice on things like the orientation of the joysticks.

Yeah, I laugh at the Honda kids with their park bench spoilers and fart cans and carbon fiber hoods that cost more than the whole car was worth.  And I am sure when I raced that guy in the Lamborghini with my supercharged mustang (and blew his doors off) he was still laughing at me because to him I was no different than the kids with the Hondas were to me.  And as much as I want to call some of the new members a noob because they insist on making that 48x24 square CP with 7 joysticks and a kitchen sink, I still have to stop and respect them for trying and doing what they want to do. 

[yotsuya]

I guess building a cab for someone else makes me see how their personal tastes might vary from my own but it doesn't mean I can't build them a sweet cab.  They might WANT the lightning bolts and blue lighting, and regardless of how much I don't want to do that for them, I will do it because it isn't for me.  I try to see other people's projects the same way.

That's why you ask THEM for theme ideas and NOT the community. 

I built a nice cab for a friend. He designed the bezel as a mashup of all his favorite characters. I didn't say anything. It was his cab. If he asked my advice, I would have tried to steer him away, but he didn't ask, so I didn't offer. 

[jmaxime89]

It is not the greatest MAME cab in the world; It is just a tribute.

Love the Tenacious D reference !

[jennifer]

     Oppps.... I ment to say, Golly cant wait to see some blue lightning.

[deadmoney5]

Yeah, I laugh at the Honda kids with their park bench spoilers and fart cans and carbon fiber hoods that cost more than the whole car was worth.  And I am sure when I raced that guy in the Lamborghini with my supercharged mustang (and blew his doors off) he was still laughing at me because to him I was no different than the kids with the Hondas were to me.  And as much as I want to call some of the new members a noob because they insist on making that 48x24 square CP with 7 joysticks and a kitchen sink, I still have to stop and respect them for trying and doing what they want to do.

There will always be people who ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on other people's parades..in every aspect of life.  They are miserable people who like to degrade others to make them feel better.  ---fudgesicle--- them.  But there is a difference in your example of the guy with the souped up Hondas and the guy ASKING for advice or opinions on a message board. 

The honda guy isn't asking for advice or another's opinion of his ---smurfy--- car...IF he thinks his car is awesome..so be it..I'm happy for him and would NEVER make fun of his choice.  IF he's not asking for advice, and someone makes fun of his choice..see my miserable people sentence above.

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

[yotsuya]

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

Completely agree. This is Xiaou2's problem.

[Louis Tully]

.

[Le Chuck]

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

Completely agree. This is Xiaou2's problem.

That he's a master wood worker?

[yotsuya]

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

Completely agree. This is Xiaou2's problem.

That he's a master wood worker?

Oh, I bet he works the wood, all right!

Read the part AFTER the comma, my friend.

[Malenko]

The honda guy isn't asking for advice or another's opinion of his ---smurfy--- car...IF he thinks his car is awesome..so be it..I'm happy for him and would NEVER make fun of his choice.

unless his fart cannon "muffler" rattles the fillings out of your teeth.

[Generic Eric]

Say what you will.  Often suggestions are based on experience.



The average home arcade racer at a desk doesn't need to sustain 5 G turns like a NASCAR driver does, but we can probably help you mount your monitors.

[Xiaou2]

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

Completely agree. This is Xiaou2's problem.

That he's a master wood worker?

Oh, I bet he works the wood, all right!

Read the part AFTER the comma, my friend.

 I guess you would like to me to reveal your problems ?   One is the above.

 Wasting time making jabs at others, of which have no relvance except spreading negativity, and showing how you, and many others like yourself, are unable to let things go..   as well as to make assumptions and judgements, based on feelings rather than evidence.

 Its funny how many time I read  "I cant believe this... but Im agreeing with Xiaou2".

 The problem is that when you are angered, or upset at what you FEEL is a jab at one of your Pals...  One BTW - that has usually thrown several attacks before hand in the past that you may not even know about...   Well, when you read the replies.. you will read it with hate, anger, and malice...  and thats what you will see and feel.   Half the time, you dont ever even read things correctly, and are making up things that dont exist... or cease to read and see the positives..  until that one day when all the sudden... there I am making a clear and concise argument for a cause you favor...  and thus the above Quotes come out...

 Meanwhile, you have no idea how many threads have about 20 jabs of Jealously and Hateful attacks... without provocation, before I respond in with that same level of Kindness that was shown to me...


 There are several here that Continue to post drivel and heavy critisizms towards people and things they dont like..   and get their panties all bent in a twist.. if you make any non-ego boosting comments...  YET...  they still will praise a website devoted to trashing others.   Funny how it can be dished out... but not well received.   lol

 And whats more sad... is that I dont even go out of my way to be mean.  I dont start my own trashing site, mock and single people out for their weak ends in anything that they present.   I could easily do the same, with far greater ability, and no need to use infantile curse words to make the laughs.   However... its not who I am, and not what I stand for.   Its the very Opposite of that.   And I will continue to feel nothing but pity, for someone who thinks that belittling others is OK, so long as it makes everyones cab look and operate just like YOU they should look and operate.  Its certainly a Mental illness.

 When I comment on peoples creations, I give useful and helpful advice.  If they choose to take it or not.. is always up to them.  However, if they lash back with points in which are arguable..  then yup, I will respond to defend my position.   Has nothing to do with force or care about their creations.   And if they go so far as to make personal attacks... well then, dont expect me to be all rosy.  Ill serve it right back at you... as well deserved.

 I dont really hold grudges, like some of the people here... and often is surprises these guys.. when all the sudden I do something like send them a set of pictures they were asking for.   Even After they have attacked me personally in the past, and layed down the judgements.

 Anyone here long enough, will know that while I am Passionate, I am also very helpful and well intentioned.  Not hateful.
Filled with ideas and a lot of experience in many areas...  but, Im no master of anything, in any one area.

 I do have high levels of standards, for things like Audio & Visual qualities, playability, comfort... etc.  As I am a very critical person by nature.  But critical isnt a bad thing.  It just means you have different level of experience and different levels of enjoyment and derived pleasures.   An over-cooked steak... may not upset some...  but for others.. its rejected.

 
 Finally, there is also a language barrier here.  A lot of people from many parts of the world... and while their English may be good.. its not on the same level of a Native speaker.  As such, a lot of things can and Do get taken the wrong way.  (Wrong meanings - Bad translations - dual meanings - and much more... )


 To date, many do not even know about half the things Ive done and or helped with.   A lot of them, I self-Erased.. due to the childish and abusive  'Gang-Attack-Posts', that frequent around here at times.


 So before you Jump off the Deep end to reply..  Read what Ive said in non-anger speak, and then consider looking in the mirror to boot.

[yotsuya]

I'm just telling you, Xiaou, many, many times any good ideas you have a lost due to the fact that the way you express yourself really, really turns people off. I have nothing against you. I actually prefer you to someone who comes here looking for a fight, as we have seen in another thread.

But you don't give useful advice. You post ridiculous analogies that you think illustrate your point, continually you cite your expertise as an arcade manager as the reason why you are not wrong, and you berate people for their ideas. Learn some tact, man.

[Xiaou2]

Yeah, I laugh at the Honda kids with their park bench spoilers and fart cans and carbon fiber hoods that cost more than the whole car was worth.  And I am sure when I raced that guy in the Lamborghini with my supercharged mustang (and blew his doors off) he was still laughing at me because to him I was no different than the kids with the Hondas were to me.  And as much as I want to call some of the new members a noob because they insist on making that 48x24 square CP with 7 joysticks and a kitchen sink, I still have to stop and respect them for trying and doing what they want to do.

There will always be people who ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on other people's parades..in every aspect of life.  They are miserable people who like to degrade others to make them feel better.  ---fudgesicle--- them.  But there is a difference in your example of the guy with the souped up Hondas and the guy ASKING for advice or opinions on a message board. 

The honda guy isn't asking for advice or another's opinion of his ---smurfy--- car...IF he thinks his car is awesome..so be it..I'm happy for him and would NEVER make fun of his choice.  IF he's not asking for advice, and someone makes fun of his choice..see my miserable people sentence above.

Plus some people have better tact than others.  A master woodworker might  have all the knowledge in the world in making a cab, but may come off as an elite, pompous ass.  He just may not know any better and thinks he is trying to help.

 I agree with much of what you said.

 But as for the woodworker aspect..  you have to also consider that there are in fact people in many fields that have a vast level of expertise.. that try to give advice and help to others. Others whom often reject the advice, refute the point being made, and refuse to actually research the facts.

 Its not that certain people have a lack of tact.  Its often they may lack patience with people whom lash out, when given help.
Its often that due to a persons level of understanding and level... its THEMSELVES who feel like the other person is an Elitists.
Where as the person giving the advice feels he himself may only be Mediocre in his own craft... but yes, is still well versed in knoweldge and skills.. that exceed the person they are trying to give advice to.

 Its also often that when a person poses information that isnt widely known or popular..  it becomes a shocking sensation, and hits at the nerves of others.  Some in jealousy.  Some in Disbelief.  But there are also those who accept, and take that knowledge, later to test it on their own... rather than to make a snap judgement or start a bitter spat with it.


 As for the paragraphs written here... Its hard to know whats being said, because its all over the map.


 Everyone has their own opinions on what they like, dislike, etc.   One size doesnt always work for everyone.
While you think Monster Muli-Controller panels are beginner level, looks bad, etc..  I think they can be done well, serve as a good space saver for those limited on funds and space... and can provide a better gameplay functionality to those who have passions other than mere driving or fighters.  To someone who doesnt care about looks, and values more playable games...  thats a Far better option, that a slick looking paint job with sparse and or inferior controller options.

 Its more often than not... that as people gain more knowledge and experience.. they change their controller options from generic... to specific.  Which means, original controllers, such as a real starwars yoke  -vs-  an analog stick substitute.  Or a real leaf switch button assembly from the 80s... rather than micros and or the remakes that do not feel or react the same way.

 Ive also seen people on fighter forums.. whom complained about curved button layouts.  As well as many here whom started out with curved layout, (myself included)  whom rebuilt them straight at a later date.

 Opinions are Opinions...   and you can take them or leave them.  Have an open mind.. and see what the clamor is about.  If you agree.. great.  If not.. thats fine too.   Ultimately, its your money and time.. and the results are for your enjoyment... not to please others here on some forum.

 

[Xiaou2]

I'm just telling you, Xiaou, many, many times any good ideas you have a lost due to the fact that the way you express yourself really, really turns people off. I have nothing against you. I actually prefer you to someone who comes here looking for a fight, as we have seen in another thread.

But you don't give useful advice. You post ridiculous analogies that you think illustrate your point, continually you cite your expertise as an arcade manager as the reason why you are not wrong, and you berate people for their ideas. Learn some tact, man.

 Again.. your only looking at things from a limited perspective.. and not honestly.   Look again.

 I have and Do give a LOT of positive advice.   Ive plenty of evidence to prove it...  Ive got many pictures Ive drawn up Specifically for others, at their requests for help.    I even helped with the artwork of a persons cabinet here.

 I do cite my experience, just as anyone with experience in a field would do.   Thats because with 3 yrs of mechanical repairs on arcade machines in a busy arcade... filled with many old and not-so-well-kept games... you tend to learn a thing to 1000...

 I give the Backing reasons as to Why and How things work.  Not just the experience.

 I cite analogies of non mechanical nature.. for those whom do not have very good mechanical experience and understandings... so that anyone can understand these principles... if they care to.   The problem is that a lot of people have a chip on their shoulders.. and the again.. are siding with Friendships and feelings.. rather than actually absorbing knowledge.  Meanwhile.. they are throwing jabs and hooks...  attacking.   And so then Ill eventually bite back..  but pretty much only after Ive put down all the points, and tried to maintain civility.

 Yet, here again... you are pretty much telling me I am not civil, ..yet every other post.. are provoking others.
There a psychological nature that exists.. where people see things in others.. that they dislike in themselves.  Maybe you should consider this when you try to interject your ideals, thoughts, and feelings into what you see me, and others as.    For example... a person who gets jealous often... always sees jealousy in other peoples minds... even though many people are Well beyond that level of being... and just do not feel nor think that way.  I believe its called "Projection".

 Ive only berated those who have continually attacked me personally... and only after a Lot of attacks.  Its not something I like to do, nor to I gain any pleasure of doing it.   And pretty much every time Ive done so, has been well after Ive given reasons as to my Opinions and or non-deniable, fully re-searchable, Factual data.

 All that said...

 Do I know everything?  Nope.  Not even close.
 Have I been wrong?  Yup.  Many many times.

 Heck, I used to hate leafs... but then I was shown the reasons how and why, by some other Passionate souls... and have since tried to spread that knowledge myself.

 While I dont go out of my way to be super-friendly in a text based nature..  that doesnt mean Im not a nice guy..  or that Im a total tyrant.   Ive plenty of friends in Real life... and get along with many people of all walks of life, and all races.

 Still, there are times when Ive misunderstood, and or have a lot of jealously pointed at me.  For example... when I was training in the martial arts.   One particular class was too lax, and spent too much effort talking or resting than actually working.  I should have left.. but stuck around a bit longer too see if there was anything of use.   Anyways... while the teacher was talking and others were doing nothing, Id stay in stance, and practice various things while awaiting actual drills and or something useful to do.

 The guys there got huge chips on their shoulders.   One of the youngest, who had been there for a year or more than me... thought I was a rookie.. despite me saying Id been in the arts for Years.  He constantly was making mistakes, and thinking I was wrong... only to be corrected by the teacher.   Yet still, little to no respect.. and a lot of bitter jealousy, along with a physical challanging nature.

 My hard work ethic, me being there to actually improve my skills, and not waste my time...  not only caused a rift with many of them.. but eventually, it caused them to start to work harder.   Less time was spent talking.. and things started to get better.. making me stay a little while longer, rather than find somewhere else.

 The one kid physically was using the wrong kinds of directional vector and with way too much force.. and to do the drill properly... it eventually caused me a really bad shoulder injury.   After I repaired myself... I vowed never to let that happen again... so next time he pushed horizontally with the force of a freight train... instead of forwards as instructed.. I gave a light tug, and sent him flying to the ground in embarrassment.   This of course, after Id tried to explain his errors, and after Id tried to get the teacher to correct him (Teacher lamely said that he had tied many times... ).

 The Sifu had us do something like a 20 part drill...  and while these guys had done it for years..  Id never done these particular things before.   Id get out of class... and do them over and over, every day, a few reps here and there... wherever I was.  At work, while walking places.. at home... all day and night... 7 days a week.   We are talking thousands of reps here.   After 2 to 3 weeks.. Id mastered every one of them, to the fullest of my bodies potentials.  It of course helped that I already had over 10yrs experience in the arts...  but still,  most of this was just pure hardcore efforts.  Efforts that none of those guys... including the Sifu,  had ever, nor ever would, put in...

 After the 2nd or 3rd week, we did them in class again...  and I was performing them with more accuracy and power than the teacher.  I have a suspicion,  that this kind of ruined the guys spirit...  as he had been doing this variant of the art for over 10yrs.  It wasnt long after, that the guy closed up the school.

 Now, I never went out of my way to be judgmental. Never said anything much in the way of judgement... however, I did express counterpoints and reasons on differences at times... most especially if there was a negative drift to things.  The teacher said he was open minded to things... yet then bashed other ways, in a two faced sort of way..   as well as shutting down on well meant conversations and observations.   Which normally I wouldnt even say anything at all.. but only because he claimed to be open minded...

 I was just serious about my training.. and people saw what they wanted to see...
Judged me without getting to know me.
Assumed I was wrong.. and didnt know a thing...
and in the end, I proved to each of those that challenged me, that I did in fact know better, could do better... and in many of the cases.. won some of them over.  Though, it was no goal of mine at that time, to be social.  I simply didnt have that luxury of time.

 Bruce Lee got that same kind of resentment, challenge, and jealousy when he was taking martial arts in HK.  Yip Man was told that if he continue teaching Lee, most of his top dollar students would leave.  As such he sent Lee to learn under another Sifu, at a different school.  Though, admittedly, Lee went about of his was to make some trouble at his school.. a few times... saying it was closed, so he would have a private class with the Sifu.  Its something Id never had done, nor would ever do.


 And again, all that said... and I will still tell you about the guy whom made me look like a clueless fool.
As skilled as I got... there are others out there about 10x in skills.  Most would never see or meet such people, as it is a real rarity...  and I consider myself quite lucky for that.   I too was once a non-believer... but I did have an open mind to explore, test, and try new things.  Hence finding and getting to have a friendly and respectful challenge, with such people.

 So, see what you want.. but the reality is quite different than what you are posting.

[yotsuya]

TL;DR

Now that you have the distance of time, go back and look at how you suggested LeChuck "fix" his ICB project artwork and tell me that you didn't come off as an elite, pompous ass. You won't, because you don't see it that way, but most of us did.

[shponglefan]

But you don't give useful advice. You post ridiculous analogies that you think illustrate your point, continually you cite your expertise as an arcade manager as the reason why you are not wrong, and you berate people for their ideas. Learn some tact, man.

Not to mention hasn't learned the "less is more" concept behind effective communication.

[Le Chuck]

We have a saying in the Army, "Never miss an opportunity to shut the ---fudgesicle--- up."  The other maxim is, "Be brief; be brilliant."

[dkersten]

Completely agree. This is Xiaou2's problem.

Aww ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- you opened Pandora's box.  No turning back now..

I haven't sifted through his thread yet, but I agree completely with this:

I'm just telling you, Xiaou, many, many times any good ideas you have a lost due to the fact that the way you express yourself really, really turns people off. I have nothing against you. I actually prefer you to someone who comes here looking for a fight, as we have seen in another thread.

But you don't give useful advice. You post ridiculous analogies that you think illustrate your point, continually you cite your expertise as an arcade manager as the reason why you are not wrong, and you berate people for their ideas. Learn some tact, man.

95% of the posts I have seen from X2 could be perfectly fine if prefaced with "IMHO" and maybe change things like "terrible" to "not my taste"..

For example, "Your shading looks terrible" could be changed to "IMHO, your shading is not to my taste."  You get the same point across without making it sound like you believe your skills and ideas are better than other's.  And if you are going to take the time to say you don't like it, then show them where they could improve, don't just tell them it is possible to improve.  Why is that so hard? 

When I first read Le Chuck's comment in my project thread about some of my art choice being "amateur hour" I was slightly offended, but then I realized that 1) I agreed with him, and 2) in all the threads I have read his comments in, he is never coming across in a pretentious manner.  So I took it as constructive criticism, and I believe that is the best thing about this forum.  I particularly like when someone illustrates their point with a graphical example.  You think that curve there isn't right, show me what you think IS right. 

I hope that:
 A) I don't come across like X2 (even if I can do a wall of text bigger than his), and
 B) that I am not coming across as complaining that some people will share their opinions when asked.
 
My only negative comment about the feedback here is that there seems to be little tolerance for stuff that has been "done to death".   Otherwise I personally am happy that people are honest with me in their feedback.  I just wanted to point out that just because I am not making every cab my "masterpiece" doesn't mean I am ignoring the advice given or even producing a bad product.  I just don't have the decade+ of dealing with the more basic and generic cabs, so I am not offended to see someone building another "dave's multi-cade" with lightning and blue trim.   

BTW, I have yet to figure out why there is such hatred for cupholders here.. 

[yotsuya]

BTW, I have yet to figure out why there is such hatred for cupholders here.. 

I know I actively hate them, but that's me. Why take a chance on some drunk fool spilling his Hamm's all over your beautiful CP?

Having said that, I'll have a pair up for sale very soon! Who doesn't love cupholders! Buy them now!!! 

[yotsuya]

My only negative comment about the feedback here is that there seems to be little tolerance for stuff that has been "done to death".

I gave this a bit of thought. It's probably not "little tolerance" so much as it is trying to get people to really think about the opportunity they have in front of you. More often than not, you have a blank canvas, if you will, a machine that YOU CAN CREATE AND HAVE IN YOUR OWN HOME. That was unheard of when we were kids. Yeah, you can take the easy way out and slap on some ready-made lightening artwork or a collage of your favorite characters with clashing art styles from games that weren't even arcade games or so on and so forth. I think it's a little kick in the butt to the person creating a cab that they should really consider all options. That, and to be honest, you seen one Marvel Vs. Capcom, you seen them all. 

My favorite cabs are my favorites not because of the bling or the "enhanced features" but because of a well-executed theme. Echo Base. Blip!. Pinball Unleashed. Games that look like they came from the factory. I'm probably more of a traditionalist that way, but to me, those are masterpieces. If Blip! didn't have the LCD marquee, it would still be a winner in my book because of the execution of the theme.

So yeah, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a blue/black lightening cab. But there's nothing wrong with suggesting thinking about something more, either.

[dkersten]

I more or less agree with your opinion about the blank canvas and not wanting to see them waste a great opportunity, but I suppose I also think about it this way: 

If I always wanted a Defender, and one day I came here and said "I have saved for years and finally have the money to build a Defender, here is my project"  And someone will say "You know, if you go with a 4 way joystick, you can also play pacman."  Then someone will say "Of course, if you go with an 8 way, you can play most games, and eventually you would be bored of Defender and since you can't afford a different cab, that is what I would do."  Eventually I end up building a mame cab that might be just totally awesome.  But I still didn't fulfill my dream of owning a Defender cab.

Now I know what you are thinking:  Nobody here would push someone from doing a dedicated cab to doing a mame.  And you are right, so why would anyone push in the OTHER direction??  Why would anyone want to suggest to that person with the blank canvas that they use a big, bulky, outdated monitor that is going to limit the number of games they can play?  Why would they suggest a joystick that can't play all the games?  Why would they suggest art that is specific to one genre of game instead of something universal? 

Like I said, I tend to agree with you here, I see the potential and I cringe when I see them wasting it, in my eyes.  But I have to stop myself and remind myself that this isn't for me, it is for them, and they might really want those lightning bolts and 7 joysticks (or an overdone star wars theme, lol).  So more power to them.  I might tell them that in my experience they will not like it down the road, but I sure won't call them a noob and then start showing pictures of some 5 foot x 3 foot control panel from the wall of shame...


I will save that for later when they are building their second cab to replace the monstrosity they insisted on in the first place...   
(kidding but there are a couple people here that will do that)

[DaveMMR]

See, now I'm not going to try and join the dogpile on you Xiaou, but maybe leaving out the five or six paragraphs about martial arts when you're replying may help you get your point across better.       Being serious.  People get a tad annoyed when they see this long wall of text for answers/opinions/etc. and most of it could have been left on the cutting room floor (or the forum-text equivalent thereof.)

My only negative comment about the feedback here is that there seems to be little tolerance for stuff that has been "done to death".

Maybe you're right on that but perhaps it has more to do with the perception of "copying mistakes" that people are taking umbrage.  Angled controls, unorthodox button arrangements, admin buttons, et al.  Not trying to start up debates about any of those topics (they've been "discussed to death" already) but, yeah, there's that.

As for design choices, well people have opinions. If you like the stock overlay, then it doesn't matter - so long as you can play the game.  It's all just decoration, and like any art some people will like it and some people will dislike it.  Doesn't matter - as long as you can play it, right?  (Besides, that being said, I think design should be one of the last things you worry about on a cabinet unless the actual hardware ties into the theme - e.g. you're building a replica of Paperboy or something. Nothing wrong with plain black if you can't decide.)

[yotsuya]

Now I know what you are thinking:  Nobody here would push someone from doing a dedicated cab to doing a mame.  And you are right, so why would anyone push in the OTHER direction??  Why would anyone want to suggest to that person with the blank canvas that they use a big, bulky, outdated monitor that is going to limit the number of games they can play?  Why would they suggest a joystick that can't play all the games?  Why would they suggest art that is specific to one genre of game instead of something universal?

Why? Because personally, I think it's better to have a machine that plays a subset of games really well, almost near perfect (i.e. all vertical, 4-way restricted) than a cab that plays everything under the sun in an OK-not very good manner (try playing a 4-way game with an IL joystick with authentic Cherry switches - great for 8-way games, maddening to the point of murder for Mr. Do!). Why do I feel that way?

Experience.

OK, so clarifiying a question I had last night when I first read this post, the point of this thread is to say "Be nice to newbies, because it's OK if they like their cab just the way they planned it."

Got it.