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Author Topic: Battens: What/How Useful?  (Read 5263 times)

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DClarkster

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Battens: What/How Useful?
« on: July 15, 2014, 10:48:55 pm »
I've seen builds that don't use battens at all, so it's clear that they aren't needed.  But, what are they good for when they are used and how effective are they?  What wood do I use for them, assuming I have nothing except what I've purchased for the cabinet build?

ChanceKJ

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 02:10:43 am »
Battens, ledger board?  (Not really sure what the exact technical woodworking term is)

...I had to think hard as to what page in my build thread I had done this bit at... 7.

I'm using 8 foot strips of dimensional pine I picked up at lowes. It was cheap, it helped me in a couple places, construction, design, rigidity. You can chose to keep all your screws/nails internal which will help hide them especially if you're painting. Yeah, it's an extra couple steps, but I think the method just leaves a better end result.

Alternatively you could also go with Pocket Screws, dowels, or biscuits. Pocket screws would probably be your best bet if you didn't use the strips.






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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 04:01:36 am »
Knievel is sort of a demi-god around here and he was/is a big fan of biscuits.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 06:31:39 am »
Knievel is sort of a demi-god around here and he was/is a big fan of biscuits.
Mmmmmm . . . biscuits . . . . Wait, these taste afwful!   :laugh2:




Scott

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 07:54:26 am »
Mmmmmm . . . biscuits . . . . Wait, these taste afwful!   :laugh2:




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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 08:56:24 am »
welp if you dont use batons or biscuits, the only other way to do it is mortise and tenson.  Well, I guess you could "glue and screw" but thats not really a "technique"
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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 09:58:37 am »
Batens make putting the cab together much easier, IMO.  YOu can easily measure where the battens need to go and then glue/nail/screw to the battens and you get a nice solid design, plus it makes it easier if you need to replace, you can use the battens as a guide.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 10:13:41 am »
Couple helpful tips that worked well for me:

-if your using screws, pilot your holes with the proper size bit first.
-clamps and a good carpenters wood glue go a long way
-pencil out your plans on the side panels first, a large ruler and t-square are helpful


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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 10:27:24 am »
I use 2x2 furring strips because they give you a large target to screw into.
The main reason I use them is because I build with MDF and it will bulge or split if you screw into the edge without predrilling a pilot hole almost as big as the screw itself. 

I threw together a horizontal shelf unit over the weekend made of birch plywood.
With that, I just predrilled and countersunk the holes for the screws to go right into the edges of the plywood.
It turned out fine for a $50/2 hour project.


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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 11:44:21 am »
Each joinery method has it's strengths and weaknesses, and it is very dependent on what type of wood you are using.  I focused on MDF in this post.

I have built hundreds and hundreds of various enclosures from MDF over the years and wood glue is stronger than the wood itself, so glue with brad nails to keep it in place while the glue dries works just fine in most cases.  Unlike hardwoods, you don't have to clamp MDF to get an ideal glued joint, the wood is so porous that as long as it is firmly butted up and the glue allowed to completely dry before any stress is put on the joint, and you used enough glue, that joint will be plenty strong.  Just like real wood, if you have a properly glued joint and try to break it, the wood will come apart before the joint will break.

However, not everyone has a compressor and brad nailer, and while it is not difficult to get a good, tight fit on a simple edge butt seam with this technique, it can be far more tricky to do so on a blind seam.  Also, under certain circumstances if the cabinet is poorly constructed (ie large amounts of area with only 2 planes of construction, like top and sides with no front or back), this type of joint can fail under extreme circumstances.  So this method is not for everyone or every circumstance.

Like I said, each type of joinery has it's weaknesses and strengths, and as long as you are building a cabinet with at least 5 of the 6 sides having a decent amount of material (ie more than 3 planes to support each other), which pretty much all arcade cabinets have, you are playing to simple glued butt seam's strengths and it will withstand anything short of a sledge hammer (and even then hold up until the wood itself fails).

The only place I wouldn't use a simple glued butt seam for most of my joints is with basic plywood.  Plywood has incredibly weak endgrain, so any of the other joinery methods (other than biscuits or tenons) is going to be superior.

Battens are a great alternative because you don't need anything other than a drill, a few bits, a handsaw, and some screws.  Personally I wouldn't use a batten without glue because the screws themselves are not nearly as strong, although they do add some substantial mechanical strength to the joint.  I also wouldn't personally use any soft wood unless it was also being glued along the entire surface area.  Soft woods are pretty weak along the grain, so if you are relying strictly on mechanical fasteners to hold the joint together, you are relying on the grain of the wood for the strength, and only where the screws are, so you are doubling up on the weakness.  Use hardwood and glue and you have a fantastic joint.  The simplicity of using this is one of the biggest strengths, but they also mean the most amount of finish work as you will have screws to cover up on BOTH surfaces (although you can screw from the backside to one or both surfaces, but then you lose most of the mechanical advantage of the screws).

Biscuits or tenons with MDF are both slightly better than a glued butt seam, and slightly worse.  On the one hand, they add to the surface area that can be glued, and since they are crossing the "grain" of the MDF, they will mechanically hold better.  But they also swell when glued and are slotted into the edge of one piece of MDF, and if you use too many you can split the MDF and weaken the joint.  Used in moderation they are VERY effective.  In real woods, biscuits and tenons are probably the best form of joinery around.

Dados for MDF are also a great choice.  The only downside is they require special tools (dado blades or router bits) and dados that stop short of the edge are tricky to cut and hide properly.  However, if properly glued, they have more surface area than a simple glued butt joint, and have a mechanical advantage as well, making them superior in almost every way to any other joint when using just about any kind of wood (in cabinetry of course).

The bottom line, however, is that if you design the cabinet well, ANY of these joinery methods will be far more than you need to hold the thing together.  Unless you are moving the cabinet constantly, there is little to no stress on any joint.  If I were giving advice to any first time builder, I would say that A) wood glue is your best friend, and B) make sure your design is structurally sound and you will have no problems building something that will outlast you.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 02:33:28 pm »
we've always just called them "glue blocks" or (incorrectly) cleats.  :dunno

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 03:13:13 pm »
I always called them cleats, and from what I read, it would be a proper term, lol.  But here everyone uses batten, so when in Rome..

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 03:56:28 pm »
I am always surprised at the lack of love around here for braces and brackets....





Easy, very strong, lightweight and no special tools needed. I like to toggle between these and furring strips. Although I have been wanting a nice Krieg pocket jig even since BobA tuned me in to how useful they were.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 04:39:15 pm »
Problem with those metal brackets is that they are about a buck a pop.  WAY more than I wanna spend.  Wooden battens are way cheaper and just as good.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2014, 05:10:27 pm »
I am always surprised at the lack of love around here for braces and brackets....





Easy, very strong, lightweight and no special tools needed. I like to toggle between these and furring strips. Although I have been wanting a nice Krieg pocket jig even since BobA tuned me in to how useful they were.

I use those here and there.  They are super handy.  When Menards has the %15 off everything you can put in the bag sale I'll pick up a selection of them to keep around.

+1 on the Krieg pocket jig.   I used one on my Pac Man cocktail build.  I was a little nervous at first but the joints hold together extremely well and it was very fast and easy to use.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2014, 05:18:44 pm »
I use those here and there.  They are super handy.  When Menards has the %15 off everything you can put in the bag sale I'll pick up a selection of them to keep around.

+1 on the Krieg pocket jig.   I used one on my Pac Man cocktail build.  I was a little nervous at first but the joints hold together extremely well and it was very fast and easy to use.

Ooh! I never thought about putting brackets in on the bag sales. Thanks for the tip! I'm gonna need to splurge on a Krieg pocket jig soon. Everytime i see them in the hardware store, I end up stopping and looking them over. I then chicken out after mulling over the price.

Problem with those metal brackets is that they are about a buck a pop.  WAY more than I wanna spend.  Wooden battens are way cheaper and just as good.

Yeah, you are right, but you don't need too many of them, and at least tossing a few in critical spots is just easier for me than anything else. That I figure an extra $20-30 isn't a huge investment into something like a full cabinet.


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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2014, 05:44:01 pm »
+1 on pocket screws.  I've seen those used in soooooo many cabinetry projects that are rock solid.  Can't imagine them NOT being good for arcade cabs.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 05:45:21 pm »
Menards also sells some of the Krieg accessories.  I picked up an extra clamp and some screws using the discount bag as well.

I use those here and there.  They are super handy.  When Menards has the %15 off everything you can put in the bag sale I'll pick up a selection of them to keep around.

+1 on the Krieg pocket jig.   I used one on my Pac Man cocktail build.  I was a little nervous at first but the joints hold together extremely well and it was very fast and easy to use.

Ooh! I never thought about putting brackets in on the bag sales. Thanks for the tip! I'm gonna need to splurge on a Krieg pocket jig soon. Everytime i see them in the hardware store, I end up stopping and looking them over. I then chicken out after mulling over the price.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 02:38:34 am »
I am always surprised at the lack of love around here for braces and brackets....
Yeah, nobody uses them . . .   ::)





. . . not even to attach rubber feet and an access panel on the bottom using clip-on nutplates.   :lol



The two main drawbacks to braces/brackets are:
  1. The screws aren't very good in MDF and can work loose over time.
  2. You have to be very precise and square when drilling your pilot holes to prevent the screws from pulling pieces out of alignment.


Scott
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 02:43:33 am by PL1 »

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2014, 11:26:27 am »
I am always surprised at the lack of love around here for braces and brackets....
Yeah, nobody uses them . . .   ::)

 :laugh2: Is it too late to say - Nice use of brackets!




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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2014, 01:05:17 pm »
+1 on pocket screws.  I've seen those used in soooooo many cabinetry projects that are rock solid.  Can't imagine them NOT being good for arcade cabs.

I watch Woodworking for Mere Mortals and Steve puts pocket screws in practically everything he does.  He definitely sold me on using them in future projects.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2014, 01:23:30 pm »
On anything with either hardwood that is visible or a finished side (ie laminate), I use pocket screws.  It is easier and faster than biscuits, and for cabinetry in particular, a great way to go.

However, any surface that I can fill holes in, nail and glue is faster and if done right, just as good if not better. 

The only time I use biscuits any more is on panels of hardwood or hardwood veneer plywood where I want both sides to be free of holes.  And with plywood veneer I will opt for a dado joint over biscuits if I can do it.

The only place I use metal brackets in anything other than "shop furniture" (like a workbench) is on something that needs room to move as the wood expands and contracts over time.  With MDF and particle board you don't have to worry about this of course, but any natural wood you do, so securing table tops to skirts or the like really requires a mechanical fastener that can move.  Otherwise metal brackets are like RTA fittings to me - I leave them to the guy who only owns a screwdriver.


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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2014, 01:35:04 pm »
In case anyone wants to send Vigo a birthday present this year.  ;D


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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2014, 04:24:22 pm »
+1 pocket screws

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 08:48:43 pm »
Thanks for all the great info (like I didn't already have enough to consider on my first build).  I think I'm going with the 2x2 furring strips (~$2 for 8' at Home Depot/Lowe's).  But I'm still unclear as to WHY they (or metal brackets) help.  I get why for shelves, but not panels.  Ease of assembly makes sense and is worth it alone, but how it provides better structure stability (again with panels) just isn't clicking with me.

This is my first build (not started yet).  I am using MDF (3/4" sides and 1/2" panels) and glue & screw.  As far as I can tell it's a difference of screwing (counter-sunk) the sides directly into the panels' edges or screwing battens into the sides and then screwing the panels to the battens.  I also don't understand carpentry, so "without a physics lesson, suffice it to say 'it just does'" is also acceptable (and the answer I'm currently rolling with).

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2014, 01:23:16 am »
They help increase the structural integrity of your project as they provide more surface area for the panels to connect with each other.

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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2014, 01:31:19 am »
They help increase the structural integrity of your project as they provide more surface area for the panels to connect with each other.

What ^^^ said.

Plus, they allow you to connect all your panels from the inside, avoiding screw holes. See the Dynamo HS-1 for a great example. I wish someone would make repros of those!
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Re: Battens: What/How Useful?
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2014, 09:11:02 am »
Using wooden battens with an MDF panel also gives you something more substantive to screw into.   You can technically screw into MDF but the screws will not hold as well as they will into wood.