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Author Topic: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel [SOLVED]  (Read 5101 times)

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geecab

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Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel [SOLVED]
« on: November 21, 2013, 05:12:06 pm »
Hi! I'm trying to add a ProMonacoGP mode to my MonacoGP remake. As far as gameplay goes, I know there is very little difference between MonacoGP and ProMonacoGP. However, looking closer at the ProMonacoGP Bezel (I've attached a few below) I am confused by a few of the LED sections. Never actually played ProMonacoGP in the arcade and I can't find any good youtube clips to help me get my head around how some of these sections function. Hoping someone on here knows a bit about the game, or just has some idea and can let me know what I should expect.

So looking at the ProMonacoGP bezel this is what I find myself asking....

1. What's with the 2 strips?
The gaps in the Bezel for 'Time', 'Your Score' etc allow space for 7 segment LEDs to shine though. But for the "Number Of Cars Successfully Overtaken" section there are 2 thin strips?? To the right hand side of the bezel, in the 'Play Instructions' I can just about read "Following bonus points awarded at end of game: Overtaking 16 successive cars - 1 Bonus (200 Points)". So I'm guessing these strips start to fill up as you pass cars, but why have 2 strips   :-\

2. One bonus (200 points) awarded for passing 16 successive cars hardly seems worth the bother?
The comment under the 2 strips that reads "Bonus Points (x200 PT.)" which kind of implies at the end of the game the number of successive cars you have passed is multiplied by 200 :) but that contradicts what is written in the 'Play Instructions' that you only get 1 bonus (200 Points) for passing 16   :-\

3. Impossible to get in the "Best Score over 10000" section?
The "Best Score over 10000" section contains 4 x 7 Segmented LEDs thus it can not display a score greater than 9999   :-\

Thanks for reading, hope someone can help :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 02:13:49 pm by geecab »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2013, 05:48:14 pm »
Hi! I'm trying to add a ProMonacoGP mode to my MonacoGP remake. As far as gameplay goes, I know there is very little difference between MonacoGP and ProMonacoGP. However, looking closer at the ProMonacoGP Bezel (I've attached a few below) I am confused by a few of the LED sections. Never actually played ProMonacoGP in the arcade and I can't find any good youtube clips to help me get my head around how some of these sections function. Hoping someone on here knows a bit about the game, or just has some idea and can let me know what I should expect.

So looking at the ProMonacoGP bezel this is what I find myself asking....

1. What's with the 2 strips?
The gaps in the Bezel for 'Time', 'Your Score' etc allow space for 7 segment LEDs to shine though. But for the "Number Of Cars Successfully Overtaken" section there are 2 thin strips?? To the right hand side of the bezel, in the 'Play Instructions' I can just about read "Following bonus points awarded at end of game: Overtaking 16 successive cars - 1 Bonus (200 Points)". So I'm guessing these strips start to fill up as you pass cars, but why have 2 strips   :-\

2. One bonus (200 points) awarded for passing 16 successive cars hardly seems worth the bother?
The comment under the 2 strips that reads "Bonus Points (x200 PT.)" which kind of implies at the end of the game the number of successive cars you have passed is multiplied by 200 :) but that contradicts what is written in the 'Play Instructions' that you only get 1 bonus (200 Points) for passing 16   :-\

3. Impossible to get in the "Best Score over 10000" section?
The "Best Score over 10000" section contains 4 x 7 Segmented LEDs thus it can not display a score greater than 9999   :-\

Thanks for reading, hope someone can help :)
The 1 is assumed?

geecab

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2013, 08:23:09 pm »
>>The 1 is assumed?

Since you said that I took another look at the second picture of the bezel again. I reckon I can see a really faint "1" in the black space immediately to the right of the trophy symbol. I bet it just illuminated that when someone scored over 9999... and I bet that's the same deal with the "Your Score" too as there is the same black space to the right of the trophy! Cool, thanks, thats one bit of confusion cleared up :)

Just thinking now though, I wonder what happens in the "Best 5 of 300 Games" sections when over 9999 is scored. Say someone scored 10001 and got 1st place. Would it show 9999, or show the roll over score 0001? It would look really confusing to see a 1st position score of 0001 above higher scores below. I reckon it would have to show 9999 otherwise the game would look like its messed up.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2013, 03:27:49 pm »
Had some time to kill at work, so did some searching on this.
I didn't come up with any answers and probably came across the same things online that you've already found.

Did you try contacting this guy?
http://davesgameroom.com/GameDetail.aspx?GID=5
All the sites are re-using his pics.

This ebay seller has some Monaco GP parts including two Pro Monaco GP bezels:  EDIT: Doh!  It's the same pic you're using above!

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&item=151154556001&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&_osacat=0&hash=item2331837c61&_ssn=gameboardsoc1234&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=monaco&_sacat=0&_from=R40
Maybe they could help?

Have you asked over on the KLOV forums?

The two lines are clearly visible.
My guess is that it either had 8 blocks or car outlines per row which would light up one at a time as you passed cars.
Would be nice to see an example of it lit up.  :-\
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 04:24:55 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2013, 03:31:22 pm »
Looking at the bezel from the back, you can see the 1 which isn't part of the 7 segment LED display.
There is also one there for the current score.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 04:10:41 pm by BadMouth »

geecab

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2013, 06:06:42 am »
Excellent, thanks, its really clear from the back of the bezel where those extra '1's come from! I feel a bit of an idiot actually, I'd seen the same ebay post as you, but I didn't think to check out the back bezel picture!!

The "Number of Car Successively Overtaken" is still a bit of a mystery. I like the idea that it might show a row of car outlines. Maybe the top row would show the best you've currently done  (most you've overtaken successively) during your game, and the bottom row shows how well you are currently doing sort of thing.  I think I will indeed contact that davesgameroom chap and kindly ask him to check this post out.

Cheers for helping BadMouth :)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 01:05:58 am »

The "Number of Car Successively Overtaken" is still a bit of a mystery. I like the idea that it might show a row of car outlines. Maybe the top row would show the best you've currently done  (most you've overtaken successively) during your game, and the bottom row shows how well you are currently doing sort of thing.  I think I will indeed contact that davesgameroom chap and kindly ask him to check this post out.

Cheers for helping BadMouth :)

I own a Pro Monaco GP.  The way the bonus points work is that it counts up consecutive cars passed until you hit 16 - that's the top row: it lights up one light for every car passed, resetting, obviously, if you crash.  The lights are green and rectangular, not round like in your simulator, and the last four are red (it actually gives you an audio beep for each car passed for the last four as a sort of warning that you're getting close to earning the bonus).  Upon passing the 16th consecutive car, you get a different beep and a "+200" shows up in red in the middle of the screen and one rectangle lights up on the bottom row and the top row is reset.  That is to say, each lit rectangle on the bottom row represents one successful sequence of passing 16 cars and getting the bonus.  If you crash at any time, the top row representing cars passed is reset, but your bonuses earned on the bottom row are banked till the end of the game.  (also, passing cars while on the shoulder does not count, it has to be a clean pass while fully on the road).

At the end of the game, before your score is ranked, the bonus lights on the bottom row go dark from right to left and with each light turning off, 200 points is added to your score and a "+200" flashes in red in the center of the screen.  This all happens rapidly, such that if you end the game with three bonus lights lit up in the bottom row, 600 points will quickly count up on your score and the "+200" will flash on screen three times in succession with three quick beeps.  After the bonus is added, your score is ranked as normal and thrown in the top 5 if applicable.

One more note about bonuses: there is some false information on the net that says that if you pass a car on the bridge you are awarded 200 points immediately.  This is untrue; what happens is, every time you pass a car on the bridge, the "+200" flashes in red on the screen and a light on the bottom row lights up.  In other words, passing one car on the bridge is the exact equivalent of passing 16 cars on a normal road, meaning bonuses can add up really quickly if you're any good at all at the game ;)

One final note, the bonuses cap out at 15 (times 200 = a max bonus of 3000 points at game's end).  After you've earned 15 bonuses, every time you pass a car, the top row still lights up from left to right, and the audio beeps for the 12th through 15th successive car passed still happen, but passing the 16th car does not yield a visual or audio cue of any kind and does not give any bonus, it just resets the top row of lights and starts over again, rendering that part of the bezel moot for the rest of the game.

Another major difference with Pro Monaco, is that it still has only four digits for score, unlike your simulator.  True, you can score over 9999 points, but the way the game handles it is by lighting up a light under the bezel that lights up a dummy '1' digit to the left of your score.  It also lights up the trophy and wreath beside your score at this time and, at game's end, places your score in the "Highest Score above 10,000" spot at the top of the bezel, skipping the 1-5 rankings all together.  The trophy and wreath to the left of this score also light up at this time.

Any other questions, feel free to ask...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:32:57 am by Dr. Morbis »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 04:01:01 pm »
Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to post! This is excellent stuff  :)

I think I've got a good understanding of how everything works now based on what you've written (thanks for being so descriptive)! Just a few things spring to mind straight after reading, would be really great if you wouldn't mind clarifying (Sorry if these look a bit daunting to answer, hopefully though they are just a few yes and no answers), here we go...

1. Does the 16th led on the top row ever light up (Maybe for a short period just before you are awarded the bonus perhaps)?
2. Does the 16th led on the second row ever light up (I'm guess not as you state you can only achieve a maximum of 15 bonuses)?
3. On the second row, are the last 4 leds also colored red?
4. Does the "+200" flash at the same rate as the "Extended Play" message and is it also accompanied by the same beep perhaps??

All fascinating stuff! I am very envious of you for owning the best arcade game of all time in such a rare form! Once again, can't thank you enough for posting  :)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2014, 09:16:09 pm »
Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to post! This is excellent stuff  :)

1. Does the 16th led on the top row ever light up (Maybe for a short period just before you are awarded the bonus perhaps)?
2. Does the 16th led on the second row ever light up (I'm guess not as you state you can only achieve a maximum of 15 bonuses)?
3. On the second row, are the last 4 leds also colored red?
4. Does the "+200" flash at the same rate as the "Extended Play" message and is it also accompanied by the same beep perhaps??


1.  There is no 16th led; there are 15 leds per row, hence why the bonuses cap out at 15.  On the top row, passing 15 cars lights up the 15 lights, and passing the 16th car gives you the bonus while resetting the 15 lights (making them all go dark).
2. Only 15 lights per row - see above.
3. Yes.
4. No. The beeps for the cars leading up to the 16th car are the same beep as the extended beep, but just one beep instead of several, and the final beep for passing the 16th car and earning the bonus is just one short beep in a lower tone.  The "+200" only flashes once very briefly for the same length of time as one flash of the "Extended Play" message.

As for Pro Monaco GP being so rare, I think that's because it wasn't released here.  Mine says "Made in Japan" on the back, and it may just be that it's a Jap only or Jap/Euro release and a couple were imported here via private hands over the years... (and by "Here" I mean North America)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2014, 10:37:23 pm »
Very cool.  You are very fortunate to have such a rare and cool game.

 Do you have a smartphone that you could upload a video to youtube for us to see in action?   Im sure someone local
could film it, if you do not have the means.

 I think its something important, to get things like this captured well on video... to keep these things alive in history.
Not just the gameplay, but also to show inside a game, the controllers and how they look/work. 

 All the details and aspects, are often very difficult to find all on one place..  if at all.   And with next generation processing...
it would probably lead to being able to change 2d footage into stereo.. with fairly accurate measurements, being able to be
discerned.  .. possibly parts extracted digitally from that... and able to be reconstructed via some 3d printer or something.


 But at very least, is a great way to share the Love.

 Thanks for helping with the Info,
 Steve
 :)


(rant /on

 Heck, one thing that really kills me... is how people replace actual screenshots of arcade CRTs with Mame's (and other emulators too) raw snapshots.

 The look is Completely different, as mame raw image is not at all accurate to what the game is supposed to look like.
CRTs often even have colorspace output ramps that no emulator even considers (when displaying to a pc monitor with
custom effects)   Many of them also vary in dot pitch... especially the older games.  The larger the pixel triad,  the more
different the color on the other end.  Usually brighter due to larger area of phosphor excitement...  , with a lot more
color leaking - which made for a more shaded/blended look.

 Also, the larger pitch also means that the lines of the shadowmask were thicker... and thus they created a more textural
look,  even more ability for color bleeding over the lines,  and due to the amount of black in the picture now more visible...
changed the colors even more.

rant /off)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 01:29:20 am »
I don't own a smartphone, but I've got friends who do, so I'll see if I can upload a video of me playing at some point.  As for the insides, it's very similar to the cockpit Monaco, but my machine has AA batteries in the bottom on the power supply to save scores, which I think is a very cool feature for them to have included that far back, and it's got a real working tachometer to the right of the steering wheel; it's almost like this was a deluxe version of a favourite game and they wanted to pull out all the stops.  It's also interesting that the gas pedal is optical - I can't think of another racing game that handles the pedal that way other than Turbo, which is Monaco's little brother and basically the exact same game but from a third person perspective (and not nearly as fast or fun).

The only manual I've found online is the Japanese one, which makes me think it is a Jap-only release.  There's no mention of Gremlin anywhere in the manual or on the cabinet, and it's got the power switch on the lower right side like Sega's other Japanese games of that era.

As for your CRT rant, I recently capped the monitor and the picture now is unbelievable; I totally agree that MAME images on a computer - and especially on an LCD - will never be able to replicate the real thing (and that goes double for discrete logic games).  What kills me personally is when you look up a game on klov and all the screen shots are MAME, I mean come on, this is supposed to be a database of the real actual games!  Worst of all, CRT pixels were not square, so the aspect ratio is *always* wrong in MAME screenshots.  Anyway, that's enough of a rant from me...

geecab

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 05:08:37 am »
1.  There is no 16th led; there are 15 leds per row, hence why the bonuses cap out at 15.  On the top row, passing 15 cars lights up the 15 lights, and passing the 16th car gives you the bonus while resetting the 15 lights (making them all go dark).
2. Only 15 lights per row - see above.
3. Yes.
4. No. The beeps for the cars leading up to the 16th car are the same beep as the extended beep, but just one beep instead of several, and the final beep for passing the 16th car and earning the bonus is just one short beep in a lower tone.  The "+200" only flashes once very briefly for the same length of time as one flash of the "Extended Play" message.

Excellent thanks for clearing those things up, I really get it now  :)

Like Xiaou2 says, about uploading a video of your Pro Monaco GP in action would be very cool indeed. I can honestly say I have repeatedly watched every Monaco GP related youtube clip there is (I need to get out more), and I guarantee you would be the first person in the world to upload clips of "Pro Monaco GP" in action!! Additionally, a video clip would mean I could really get my head around the correct timings and sounds of everything before I start coding it into my remake. No pressure though, I'm just so happy you decided to post and help us out in the first place! :O)

It seems to me as if Sega were trying out a few ideas in Pro Monaco GP that would eventually play a big part in Turbo (With its beeping as you pass cars as you pass them). Here is the best Pro Monaco GP manual I could find on the web, it has lots of interesting circuit schematics. I compared the differences with the schamtics in the Monaco GP manual when I was trying to workout how many overtake Leds there were, obviously I guessed wrong :OP
https://archive.org/details/promonacogp420-0525

Interesting CRT rant. I can't help thinking the colors I have chosen for my remake don't actually match those of the arcade. The red car in particular, I have chosen the brightest Red possible, but from all the arcade Monaco GP screen shots I've seen, the car looks to be a deeper red (Then again, the colors of everything else looks deeper as well). I just put it down to these CRTs being old and the colors fading/dimming, but I'm not totally convinced the colors I have chosen are correct..

Finally, would it be possible to provide a screen shot of the bezel when those overtake Leds are illuminated, so that I can get a good idea of how they look (size and spacing in between each Led). Would also be good if the screen shot also showed the what that Trophy Wreath symbol looks like (The bezel pictures I found on the net (on ebay) are the best I could find but they are so blurry)?

Many thanks once again  :)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 11:56:13 pm »
Quote
Interesting CRT rant. I can't help thinking the colors I have chosen for my remake don't actually match those of the arcade. The red car in particular, I have chosen the brightest Red possible, but from all the arcade Monaco GP screen shots I've seen, the car looks to be a deeper red (Then again, the colors of everything else looks deeper as well). I just put it down to these CRTs being old and the colors fading/dimming, but I'm not totally convinced the colors I have chosen are correct..

 Arcade monitors are quite robust.   Ive got a very old arcade monitor, and it has quite accurate colors.

 As said, a lot of it is due to the way the larger shadow mask lines interact with the overall output of the light.   They also help to give the games a certain texture... like an oil painting.   This texture helps to hide the low resolution...  as large areas of a single color, are now textured instead of a flat single color.   It also helps to blend lines and colors, so that there are less jagged edges visible.

 Also note..  that your colors may in fact Turn arcade accurate, IF you output them through an original Monaco GP spec monitor.

 It would be a great option, for those who cant do this... is a way to use their lcd or pc crt monitor... and get the approximate end result.
Maybe some sort of tweaked color switch option... and or even a custom color adjustment slider set.

 If you have ever messed with certain modern tv CRTs, they do have color range options.   My Sony widescreen has various modes, and it drastically alters the look thats output.  You can then further tweak the settings, using the sliders.  However.. you cant make one Mode look like the other... no matter how you adjust the sliders.    I imagine that certain arcade monitors have a certain spec of color ranges.  Partially dependent on the phosphor colors in the mask... and partially dependent on the actual circuitry.  (monitor driver boards)

 Additionally, there is a voltage and focus setting on the monitor boards.   They often come hot-glued in place... but over time, they work loose.
Ive often wondered, if many of the classics were sent out brand new, slightly out of focus, to create an even better shading and edge smoothing effect.   The voltage setting could also be used to amp up a dimming display.  Though, I believe I was warned against messing with it... as it could damage the monitor if it got too high.

 Its also possible the monitors were adjusted with slightly off convergence...  again, making the image blend better.

 But regardless, by the time they got to the players.. they often were out of whack anyways.  Shipping, transit, and dolly-ing vibrations.. as well as the shaking and pounding from players.

 Another thought... is that many of the older games may have shipped with an older monitor with a larger dot pitch... and has been replaced long ago, with a different low-res monitor... one that does have a higher dot pitch shadowmask.   Which would create a very different look.. and not one that the designers had intended.

 The final part being the dust collected between the monitor glass and the monitor screen.   After a while, it sort of created a fuzzy hazy glow.
Removing the monitor glass wasnt always easy... and Ops tended to let things slide for some time, especially if it wasnt a critical issue.
This can be good and or bad... depending on your view, and to the amount of dust that was collected.




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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 10:24:25 pm »
Finally, would it be possible to provide a screen shot of the bezel when those overtake Leds are illuminated, so that I can get a good idea of how they look (size and spacing in between each Led). Would also be good if the screen shot also showed the what that Trophy Wreath symbol looks like (The bezel pictures I found on the net (on ebay) are the best I could find but they are so blurry)?

Many thanks once again  :)

Give me a couple of days and I'll try and get a photo...

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2014, 04:56:28 pm »
Great stuff, thanks for your help on this  :)

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 05:04:38 pm »
Heck, one thing that really kills me... is how people replace actual screenshots of arcade CRTs with Mame's (and other emulators too) raw snapshots.
Just curious, how do you take a screenshot of something not run in an operating system that allows you to take screenshots??  And if you could, how do you accurately display the screenshot if you aren't using the original monitor??  If the subtleties come from the original monitor, then asking for an accurate screenshot would be like asking for a recording of what an analogue source would sound like run through a tube amp and played on a really high end set of speakers.. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what your complaint is, just not what anyone could possibly do about it short of physically placing you in front of the original equipment.  At best you get a photograph of the screen, which even with the right ambient light, the right film, and a skilled photographer is still not going to accurately represent all the subtletees, and THEN you are going to convert that medium to a digital format and display it on a computer monitor..  :dizzy:

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2014, 02:00:07 pm »
Alright, here is a close-up of the wreath beside 'Your Score' and the highest score above 10,000.  I'll try and get a video of the little leds in action next weekend when a friend is over - it's kinda tough to take a photo/video of something that only lights up when you're playing a game when you're by yourself.



As for Pro Monaco's release, I guess I was wrong about it being Japan only, as this photo here is on Monaco GP's page on Wikipedia, clearly showing a machine with a Japanese bezel (the pic is much larger and clearer on Wikipedia).  I don't know where the version with the English bezel was meant for release or how many actually made it out the door, but it couldn't have been a whole lot...

« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 02:01:54 pm by Dr. Morbis »

Xiaou2

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2014, 03:25:36 pm »
Heck, one thing that really kills me... is how people replace actual screenshots of arcade CRTs with Mame's (and other emulators too) raw snapshots.
Just curious, how do you take a screenshot of something not run in an operating system that allows you to take screenshots??  And if you could, how do you accurately display the screenshot if you aren't using the original monitor??  If the subtleties come from the original monitor, then asking for an accurate screenshot would be like asking for a recording of what an analogue source would sound like run through a tube amp and played on a really high end set of speakers.. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand what your complaint is, just not what anyone could possibly do about it short of physically placing you in front of the original equipment.  At best you get a photograph of the screen, which even with the right ambient light, the right film, and a skilled photographer is still not going to accurately represent all the subtletees, and THEN you are going to convert that medium to a digital format and display it on a computer monitor..  :dizzy:

 Its far closer in approximation, to show a photograph of an arcade machine, than to show a mame bitmap output.

 Mame is designed to output the raw signal..  but that Raw image, or Raw image on a modern display, is NOT the intended end result that was seen or experienced, on a real machine.

 There will come a day,  when no more arcade CRTs exist and function...  and at that point.. will anyone know what these games "Really"  looked like?   Maybe.. if people didnt replace all of the Photos with ugly raw bitmaps...

 A real photo, despite its limitations, looks Infinitely better, and is  FAR  more nostalgic.


 The same thing ticks me off about the Bezel project.  (as well as the Pinball vector crud)

 You get a clueless kid to scan the art... who then takes the scan, and redraws it into vectors by hand.   However, due to his poor artistic abilities... limited color spectrum vision and low quality non-calibrated monitor,  his lack of attention, lack of comparisons, and lack of any sort of checks and balances... his final output is far from being an arcade accurate bezel.   Often having poor color matching.  Poor and inaccurate line work.  Poor detail work.. with them often changing the art as they see fit. 

 Its not preservation. 
  Its butchery and blasphemy.

 Not only that... but when its displayed in its raw vector form..    It looks NOTHING like what you would see at an arcade.. even if the arcade just came out of the factory as brand new.

 Quite simply, grab a real machines photos... and compare them to the bezels that are output with mames capture.
Its not even in the same universe, as far as correct look goes.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2014, 03:41:22 pm »
Its not preservation. 
  Its butchery and blasphemy.

They're just video games, dude.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2014, 10:39:30 pm »
Its not preservation. 
  Its butchery and blasphemy.

They're just video games, dude.

We will see what kind of reaction  you make, when I Mame a perfect LadyBug cab.    :lol
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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2014, 11:44:36 pm »
Its not preservation. 
  Its butchery and blasphemy.

They're just video games, dude.

 Everyone has things they find that have value, and can easily dismiss those that they do not.   But once you mess with those things that They hold value in... its a completely different story.

 And if said person holds no value in Anything... then said person is passionless and isnt worth the time to respond to.


 I happen to hold passion in many areas of life.  From high quality Audio, Video games, art, music, movies... and far more than I have time to sit here and list.

 Games are one of the highest forms of art.   They are interactive works of art,  that include sounds, music, drawing/shading, color work..  as well as Illustration / comic  style artwork on the cabinet.   Also containing various mechanical devices, which in themselves, are works of genius kinetic art.

 And what they represent, for many such as myself.. was a way to escape the troubles and stresses of life.. and have a moment of happiness and some moments of victorious successes...  in a time when I felt defeated for merely being.   These games not only are enjoyable in so many levels of their output disciplines...  but they also hold other value... such as Nostalgia.   Bringing the past joys into the present.

 Altering or forgetting these things, is easy to allow.   But if and when they are gone completely... there are many whom may be incredible upset.  Some may be several generations into the future...  whom due to missing information, can not pull up a simulation, create a virtual or real replica cabinet,  or more importantly.. print out the controls to work the game properly as it was intended to feel and play...   all because nobody thought it was a good idea to capture & preserve history, in the best and most accurate means possible.

 The emulation of the game is only one part of the preservation.   Discs of Tron environmental, for example, is a cabinet of no equal...  in its complex and rich artistry.. as well as its unique controls.

 If one looks at the list and pictures that are on the un-emulated website...  someone like me, is quite saddened to see to many games have been lost and have vanished completely.  Possibly scrapped.  Possibly bit-rotted away.  But nonetheless.. are completely lost forever.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2014, 06:33:26 pm »
Alright, here is a close-up of the wreath beside 'Your Score' and the highest score above 10,000.  I'll try and get a video of the little leds in action next weekend when a friend is over - it's kinda tough to take a photo/video of something that only lights up when you're playing a game when you're by yourself.

Thanks for getting the pic! So that is what the trophy & wreath looks like, I was pretty close, missed the chequered flag on the trophy though! Also, looking close I can just about see faint outlines of the bottom 15 bonus LEDs, which great because I now know how they are spaced  :)

If you could try a get a video of this all in action that would be great! If possible, I'd be really interested in seeing a few of those +200 bonus message appear on screen, and especially the sequence of a events when you finish the game and your bonuses get added up. Even though your description of how all this happens in your first post gives me plenty to go on, it would still be really cool to actually see it happen  :)

I know I must sound quite repetitive (I keep saying thanks all the time!!) but really thanks again for being such a great help!

« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 07:20:17 pm by geecab »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2014, 09:50:41 pm »
Games are one of the highest forms of art.

Er... right.  I can get the nostalgia factor and as much as I enjoy video games, I think I have a vastly different definition of "art" than you do.  And especially when it comes to arcade games, which I think occupy a space as far removed from "art" as it gets.

But that's just me.

Quote
If one looks at the list and pictures that are on the un-emulated website...  someone like me, is quite saddened to see to many games have been lost and have vanished completely.  Possibly scrapped.  Possibly bit-rotted away.  But nonetheless.. are completely lost forever.

Eh, nothing lasts forever.  In fact, I have a fascination with impermanent forms of artistry (i.e. ice sculptures, street chalk art, performance arts, etc).  Sometimes the memory of such things is enough.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 09:54:21 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2014, 12:51:34 pm »
Quote
Er... right.  I can get the nostalgia factor and as much as I enjoy video games, I think I have a vastly different definition of "art" than you do.  And especially when it comes to arcade games, which I think occupy a space as far removed from "art" as it gets.

But that's just me.

 I should have put  "IMO".  Was in a hurry most likely.

 But if thats the case.. why are you even here?

 If your talking some DOOM clone.. then in many ways, Id agree with you.

 However, if your talking for example.. . Ghouls and Ghosts,  Target Earth (Sega Genesis),  Strider,  Willow,  ...  and countless more...

 Theres a great deal of amazing hand shaded, and animated works of art put into those games.   

 Target Earth has one heck of a jazz-fusion style soundtrack,  A great story..  as well as great graphical representation.   

 Strider is like a movie.. with its ever-changing sound track that adapts to the environment and action taking place.  It evokes emotion..  especially in scenes like where hes running down the steep hill.  Its very much like a dream realized..  which is exactly how the creator came up with the idea.

 The Last V8  (Commodore 64) - Has an eerie frightening feel to it with its heavy psychological nature.   The nature of Radiation,  a killer which is invisible, but is a very threat.   The game had me on the edge... sweating bullets trying to beat the first level for days on end.. pulse rapid, as I feared the dreaded incoming Nukes...   And ever time that Radiation meter went off.. it made you that much more tense.  Incredible experience.


 I know what you mean, about for example... the level of work and craftsman ship that goes into a detailed oil painting or sculpture.   However, these CAN be put into a game...   and they can be interactive.  Unlike just viewing something static.    The game allows you to experience a story, a range of feelings and expressions... that no static work allows.    And even movies, with their amazing acting and content... are still a bit static in their nature.   Where as games are truly a media of the fullest potential for full range creative expression.

Quote
Eh, nothing lasts forever.  In fact, I have a fascination with impermanent forms of artistry (i.e. ice sculptures, street chalk art, performance arts, etc).  Sometimes the memory of such things is enough.

 Many things CAN last as long as humans exist.  (some longer)   This depends on many factors..  and one of them is Care enough to preserve things well and properly.   Even life is being preserved, with seeds and DNA being stored in some mountain preserve by the Govt.

 Ice Sculptures, Chalk drawings, art performances.. are all captured in various media.  Video, Photos...etc.   And could even be captures in full on 3d, using special scanners...  again, if there was enough care to do so.

 Memory is not good an an Archival format.  Not at all.


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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2014, 01:21:54 pm »
X2, I disagree that memory is not a good way to remember something that inspires emotion.  It is one thing if you are trying to archive how something looks or its content, but when it comes to art, your memory is the best format because you capture something you can't with any other media: the feeling you got when you experienced it.

For example, most people remember losing their virginity, but if there were a video of it, most people would be severely disillusioned about how great it was if they watched it. 

Another example, you have this very grand sense of how epic arcade games were, but if you experience one after a couple decades, even one in pristine condition, it won't invoke the same feelings it did for you 20 years ago.  In fact, you will likely be disappointed.

Some things are far better left solely in our minds.

Plus, this goes back to the argument of how you can accurately archive an experience... No matter how good the photograph, colors on a piece of paper will never convey how an arcade monitor looked to the human eye as you played that game for the first time.  Your memory is going to give a photo another dimension that nobody else will be able to see or feel.  Sure, a photo can be passed on to the next generation, but they will not have the experience you do and all they will see is a dusty old monitor showing a really low resolution game that is completely uninteresting to them in every way except the idea that this existed at one time and was important enough for someone to take a photo of it.  Is that really the memory you want others to have of those things you held close to your heart?

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 05:22:03 pm »
But if thats the case.. why are you even here?

What is the name of this web site?

Quote
I know what you mean, about for example... the level of work and craftsman ship that goes into a detailed oil painting or sculpture.   However, these CAN be put into a game...   and they can be interactive.  Unlike just viewing something static.    The game allows you to experience a story, a range of feelings and expressions... that no static work allows.  And even movies, with their amazing acting and content... are still a bit static in their nature.   Where as games are truly a media of the fullest potential for full range creative expression.

First of all, I think that games are a poor story-telling medium; arcade games especially.  Nobody plays space invaders because they are enthralled by the backstory of intergalactic politics leading to an alien invasion of planet earth.

Second of all, my definition of "art" includes intent as much as craftsmanship.  If it were craftsmanship alone that defined art, then every iPod, television set or desktop computer would qualify as an art object.  But when was the last time you looked at a Dell computer and said, "wow, that's a fantastic piece of art!"

That's why I exclude video games (mostly) and especially so exclude arcade games.  Arcade games are mass-produced commercial time-wasters designed for little else than separating individuals from their pocket change.  In that sense, an arcade machine is no more an example of "art" than a love tester or slot machine.

Quote
Ice Sculptures, Chalk drawings, art performances.. are all captured in various media.  Video, Photos...etc.   And could even be captures in full on 3d, using special scanners...  again, if there was enough care to do so.

If you're concerned with recordings of live art performances (say, a play), then I think you're missing the inherent reason live performance exists in the first place.

Quote
Memory is not good an an Archival format.  Not at all.

Memories of experiences is what shapes the human mind.   And memories of experiences capture emotions in ways that an artificial reproduction never could.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 05:25:19 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 05:23:08 pm »
Another example, you have this very grand sense of how epic arcade games were, but if you experience one after a couple decades, even one in pristine condition, it won't invoke the same feelings it did for you 20 years ago.  In fact, you will likely be disappointed.

Some things are far better left solely in our minds.

Very true.  I loved Saved by the Bell growing up.  Then I watched it when I got older; my gods, it's a terrible show.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2014, 07:08:25 pm »
Quote
I loved Saved by the Bell growing up.  Then I watched it when I got older; my gods, it's a terrible show
lol, I was such a huge Dukes of Hazzard and Knight Rider fan, but I can't even watch 5 minutes of either show now, which can be found running on cable almost 24x7 these days.

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2014, 08:38:15 pm »
Alright, I finally got around to making a video for geecab.  I don't know how to embed, but here's the link:



Couple things to note: first, sorry for the utterly horrible video quality, but I only had a $20 camera available and I figured that this was better than nothing.  Also, it looks like the last six lights are red, not four as I previously stated; chalk that up to me not being really able to see what's going on to the left of the monitor while I'm concentrating so hard on what's happening on the screen whenever I play.  And finally, the reason I wasn't awarded a 200 point bonus for passing that car on the bridge is because I was wobbling (from touching the yellow line 'shoulder') while I was passing him - it has to be a clean pass to get the bonus.  Had I passed him cleanly, one of the bottom row of lights would have lit up on the bottom row immediately and the red '+200' would have flashed on the screen as soon as I had completed the pass.  And speaking of the little red '+200', it looks like it appears higher on the screen than I realized; you can see from the video that it appears just beneath where the GAME OVER and EXTENDED messages flash on the screen.  I think that's it, any other questions, feel free to ask...

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2014, 03:25:03 am »
Quote
What is the name of this web site?

 bonjourmama.com  ?   ;D

Quote
First of all, I think that games are a poor story-telling medium; arcade games especially.  Nobody plays space invaders because they are enthralled by the backstory of intergalactic politics leading to an alien invasion of planet earth.

 Games can in fact be great storytelling devices.   I guess you have Never played an RPG ?

 Then you have.. "Target Earth" (Sega Genesis)  - Which is primarily an action game... has snipits of story that pop up along the way... building the story up to the final confrontation... where you learn who is behind the attacks and most importantly.. Why.

 You have games like Phantasy Star, for the SMS...  which has a great story, thats highly creative.  (none of the rest in the series that Ive played, ever came close to even matching it.

 You go further... and you have games like Lunar... which is a RPG, that has animated cut-scenes with actual recorded vocals.

 My guess... is that you are trying to compare the depths to that of a Book...
But what exactly IS the purpose of most books?   Part of it is an adventure.  Part of it is emotional responses.  But in the end.. its a ride as well as coften... a lesson in morals.   All of that can, and has been done with Video Games.

 Space Invaders .. not so much.  But... todays version of space invaders?  Could actually pull it off.  Then again... thats pretty much what Target Earth was... with a lot more gameplay to boot.

 Games can present the same level of depth and experience found in any book or film... as it can produce a several books worth of text... as well as a full on movie ... with the entire soundtrack...   all of these.. and a lot more.
 
 
Quote
Second of all, my definition of "art" includes intent as much as craftsmanship.  If it were craftsmanship alone that defined art, then every iPod, television set or desktop computer would qualify as an art object.  But when was the last time you looked at a Dell computer and said, "wow, that's a fantastic piece of art!"

  There Are in fact many things people collect, and they consider them works of art.

 A Pinball machine is a Kinetic and Interactive Sculpture.   The playfield on a Theatre of Magic... has an inked drawing on it, thats been expertly created &  shaded, by a true artist.  The very gameplay, a work of Genius..  in compositional skill.  The colors, look, and parts... all matching expertly... by that artists eye.   Many specialized assemblies designed and built to solve problems.  Vocal actors, Animations, sound effects, and original musical compositions.

 Discs of Tron?  Ever see that Beauty?   No Dell PC is going to touch that in a comparison.

 Journey?  Great use of vivid colors, on its artwork.

 A Dell PC isnt typically going to have a piece of hand drawn artwork slapped onto it...

 A vid game is just as capable of beauty as a hand built piece of furniture.   Generally it wont.. but it Can be done.

Quote
That's why I exclude video games (mostly) and especially so exclude arcade games.  Arcade games are mass-produced commercial time-wasters designed for little else than separating individuals from their pocket change.  In that sense, an arcade machine is no more an example of "art" than a love tester or slot machine.

 Disagree.

 Time wasters?   What ISNT a time waster?    And what do you consider worthy of burning your time?

 You sound as adventurous as a Fish in a Fishbowl.

 A game is designed for fantasy and fun... just like EVERY other form of entertainment out there.   Same as books and movies..  you have to PAY to read and or experience that media.

 Theater, Dancing, Singing..  all the same.  Media you pay to hear & see.

 You went to the Museum?   You could easily say that you wasted your time.. and were separated from your money.    Paintings are almost all made to be sold... just like nearly most ever style of art.

Quote
If you're concerned with recordings of live art performances (say, a play), then I think you're missing the inherent reason live performance exists in the first place.

 You are making way too many assumptions.   A live art piece could be done for a cause.. such as to spread awareness.
It could also be just to express whatever it desires.. and any way shape or form.. and it could even incorporate video games , and or video game material into it.

 While there are many things that dont feel, look, or sound as good as really being there...  thats fading away,  as the advent of Stereoscopic 3d is being done extremely well.. and 3d holographic audio..  is also a reality.   You can get the same or BETTER experience, without having to exit your house.

Quote
Memories of experiences is what shapes the human mind.   And memories of experiences capture emotions in ways that an artificial reproduction never could
.


 If you can Duplicate a Painting, sculpture, or anything else... The experiences that the original gave off.. is pretty much the same that will result in a high quality replication.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 03:27:38 am by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2014, 01:38:53 pm »
Art is the most subjective thing on earth.  You can't argue art any more than you can argue what smell is best or what taste is best.  It is purely a matter of opinion, and any time you try to force people to recognize your opinion you just come across as pretentious. 

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Re: Pro Monaco GP (Sega 1980) - Confused by the Bezel
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2014, 02:12:53 pm »
Alright, I finally got around to making a video for geecab.  I don't know how to embed, but here's the link:



Couple things to note: first, sorry for the utterly horrible video quality, but I only had a $20 camera available and I figured that this was better than nothing.  Also, it looks like the last six lights are red, not four as I previously stated; chalk that up to me not being really able to see what's going on to the left of the monitor while I'm concentrating so hard on what's happening on the screen whenever I play.  And finally, the reason I wasn't awarded a 200 point bonus for passing that car on the bridge is because I was wobbling (from touching the yellow line 'shoulder') while I was passing him - it has to be a clean pass to get the bonus.  Had I passed him cleanly, one of the bottom row of lights would have lit up on the bottom row immediately and the red '+200' would have flashed on the screen as soon as I had completed the pass.  And speaking of the little red '+200', it looks like it appears higher on the screen than I realized; you can see from the video that it appears just beneath where the GAME OVER and EXTENDED messages flash on the screen.  I think that's it, any other questions, feel free to ask...

This is fantastic! The video quality is fine, it completely 'does the job' and I totally get how it works now!! Can't wait to start working on the next version of my remake and start adding all this cool new stuff!! I must confess, for the past few months I've had to put my Monaco GP Remake development to one side in order to finish a pretty nasty project at work. BUT things are going well at work and I reckon my plate/head will be clear in about 2 weeks, which is when I will start working on the my remake again :) I honestly can not wait! I have said it all along, and I'm going to say it again, Dr. Morbis thanks so much for being such a great help and taking the time to make the video clip! :)

So I believe all the mysteries of the Pro-Monaco GP Bezel now have been completely solved, time to change the title of this thread!! :O)