Continuation of HAZE and ark-adr's legal conversation re: MAME, etc.

[DGP]

Haze,

On your recent point I would agree regarding profiting from it is a poor choice without legal permission from the property holders.

But as I said previously this entire process is a legal cluster , and to that I am sure you would agree..?

 

[Le Chuck]

Le Chuck's Wild America

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

It wasn't, but since you put it out there...

Are you a lawyer or just related to some?  If your dad was a doctor would you be licensed to practice medicine?  What about if your wife was a Realtor^tm would you be selling houses on behalf of clients?  I'm a Soldier, my wife is married to a Soldier.  I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness.  Just as I generally try not to give advice on international mergers and litigation even though my dad practiced for 45 years.  He's the lawyer, not me.   I tread on my own accomplishments. 

[DGP]

Le Chuck's Wild America

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

It wasn't, but since you put it out there...

Are you a lawyer or just related to some?  If your dad was a doctor would you be licensed to practice medicine?  What about if your wife was a Realtor^tm would you be selling houses on behalf of clients?  I'm a Soldier, my wife is married to a Soldier.  I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness.  Just as I generally try not to give advice on international mergers and litigation even though my dad practiced for 45 years.  He's the lawyer, not me.   I tread on my own accomplishments.

I totally agree!

I am not practicing, the family member that I was talking about (copyright/patent) did read the thread(s) after I sent him the links to get his input and that was basically his response (in fewer words). He stated if the property holders so much as blinked that this would be an instant win for them (which I think we all know would be the obvious outcome).

 

[jennifer]

   Ark, That does clear up a few things for me... So basicly then using the 60-1 for an auction is ok, it does happen and  it would be like buying a fake Rolex, And true it happens like all the time, But its not a good idea because It has the potential to give Mame, and Devs a black eye (IE: selling copyrighted games with Mame all over it.)...Personally I believe wholeheartedly in what people like Haze do, And have followed it from the very concept, Although I have found myself very confused and chagrined at the poor work of the on some of the documentations, Effectively turning me away shaking my head... Again, IMO.

[McHale]

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

[mcseforsale]

As I've stated a thousand times (OK, maybe 5), it would be ideal if all of the IP owners would offer the ROMS for a set, small price.  Say $.25 for individual use and $2.00 for commercial.  All of the rom hustling sites are ALREADY making money on these ROMs indirectly since they're generating ad revenue by simply hosting them, so that's already profiting on the IP, whether indirectly or not.

I, for one, wouldn't mind at all licensing all my ROMS at a respectable price since the only time I use quarters in my arcade is to show off that the coin door works.  And even then, I generally unlock it and take that same quarter back out when I'm broke and need to turn in my change at the grocery store. 

So, for the small amount of ROMS that I have, I would only be paying about $50.  Paltry and easily workable into a cab project.

C'mon MAME guys, open up your rolodexes and get in touch with the OG developers and let's make this happen.  Hell, we got Space Ace and the other LD games this way!

AJ

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

[Haze]

We emulate stuff, the technical side.  As I mentioned earlier I think it's important that we stay neutral in that, work with what is presented to us with no level of bias.

Others can chase ghosts if they want.

Last place I was working a company contacted us saying they wanted to do a pack with some of their games in.  The paper trail was amusing, turns out they'd auctions off the rights to the game years ago as part of some other deal to a company who made washing machines, tracking back that far they then found said company had likely sold it off as part of another bulk deal to a company who now operate fast food restaurants, but hadn't got any actual paperwork to say either way.  In the end the whole idea was abandoned.

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

I'd say if anything Daphne was a good example of why such methods should be avoided, instead of an emulator they've got a psuedo-emulator tailored to the desires of certain copyright holders locked to specific platforms requiring special DRM encumbered files and the project is basically locked out of actually progressing or doing anything *properly* as a result.  Maybe that is of no concern to you, but such a model is not a long term solution to anything.  With MAME instead we just get on with things, and provide a resource to those who need it.

[mcseforsale]

As for Daphne, that's a bit different.  The range of games for that particular platform were doomed from the onset because of their difficulty in programming and hardware maintenance.  Laser discs sucked then and do now.  However, it was a novel attempt at bringing them back and I posit that the way they did it was the only way to emulate them, copyright them and mass market them short of offering a gigantic laser disc player and some 10" discs.

As for MAME and throttling the output of ROMs with some phoney EULA, I understand the legal risk it is that the devs' hobby is potentially risky.  ROMs are being burned.  Someone is supplying the boards.  I don't believe that it's the IP owners that are presenting you with these boards, nor do I think unravelling the ownership knot would be productive in any way.

I think that by developing MAME (and a hearty THANK YOU to all the devs) started out as a noble cause, I also believe that the IP owners of these ROMs either could care less, or don't even know they own the IP. 

With that said, I would think un-coupling yourselves from the burning of the ROMs, instead of throttling their use with MAME would be far more productive and could potentially allow you to capitalize on its use, rather than not allowing it to be licensed software...even for a pittance. 

That way, you could provide the tools to burn ROMS, develop MAME any way y'all see fit, profit from it's sale (to corps) and make the burning process the legal issue that the end user has to deal with.

Just a thought.

AJ

We emulate stuff, the technical side.  As I mentioned earlier I think it's important that we stay neutral in that, work with what is presented to us with no level of bias.

Others can chase ghosts if they want.

Last place I was working a company contacted us saying they wanted to do a pack with some of their games in.  The paper trail was amusing, turns out they'd auctions off the rights to the game years ago as part of some other deal to a company who made washing machines, tracking back that far they then found said company had likely sold it off as part of another bulk deal to a company who now operate fast food restaurants, but hadn't got any actual paperwork to say either way.  In the end the whole idea was abandoned.

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

I'd say if anything Daphne was a good example of why such methods should be avoided, instead of an emulator they've got a psuedo-emulator tailored to the desires of certain copyright holders locked to specific platforms requiring special DRM encumbered files and the project is basically locked out of actually progressing or doing anything *properly* as a result.  Maybe that is of no concern to you, but such a model is not a long term solution to anything.  With MAME instead we just get on with things, and provide a resource to those who need it.

[Haze]

Well there is already a disconnection between the dumping / distribution of ROMs and the work done on MAME.

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

As I've said, we provide the technical service, the technical software, the emulator.  We figure things out, we present what we find out to the world to better the knowledge of the world.  We call that creation MAME.

[mcseforsale]

Then you hide behind licensing.  I'm not trying to be a dick, but creating MAME and offering a license for personal use, then shunning its use in a cab that get sold without ROMs is like Linux was 10 years ago. 

It's bad policy.  MAME is an amazing bit of software, if you really analyze it.  If the dumping of ROMs can be de-coupled from your work, why then don't you let people license it for sale on built cabs?  It makes no sense.  And it seems a bit out of place in today's market.  For the 20 people that have asked me to build them a cab, I know only one that would actually pay for it.  I wouldn't mind figuring in a MAME license in the build estimate, writing an interface to help them put the ROMs in the correct place, pulling the pin and lobbing it over the wall.

AJ

Well there is already a disconnection between the dumping of ROMs and the work done on MAME.

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

As I've said, we provide the technical service, the technical software, the emulator.  We figure things out, we present what we find out to the world to better the knowledge of the world.  We call that creation MAME.

[Haze]

because MAME isn't meant to replace such things and using the proper hardware.

we provide a reference, we stay neutral, we stay independent.

nobody can make a MAME system then try to say that we authorized it when they don't bother to license things properly.

there are simply absolutely no benefits to allowing commercial use, and if you say code contributions back then I can't agree, most commercial software and packs is simply hacked for specific targets and in ways to make it more appealing rather than authentically emulated.

we've been doing this for almost 17 years, outlived basically everything else, seen drastic changes in the way things get done (MAME *sets* the bar for the quality of ports these days) and made a real difference.  I'd say our approach worked just fine in that sense.

If MAME becomes a legal option for companies to use directly then every company will use it directly, for the end user that is bad, everything just becomes a clone of MAME, has the same bugs as MAME, the same performance as MAME etc.  The poor quality products out there are typically the ones that do already disregard our license and rip the code directly because they're hacked together by people who don't have the first clue what they're doing with our code.  The good quality ones are the ones where people have taken the care and attention,  used our findings but produced their own product, better optimized and more suitable for the environments they target.  At the end of the day if we approve MAME for commercial use no company is going to fund creation of anything beyond the bare minimum of 'use MAME' and that is bad for you.

Sure, doing something like that would officially put our names in lights, but we're not doing this for fame or fortune.


This conversation has been had before, I'm not going to budge on the issue.

[DGP]

Right or wrong, or  , I have nothing but respect for what you do Haze.

Please allow me to say... Thank You.

 
Jason

[ark_ader]

I will do my upmost not to sound rude or dismissive of your skills and accomplishments Haze, but you have answered one of my questions, and unfortunately created two more.

Thanks Le Chuck for the Barracks Lawyer remark.  You are absolutely spot on there.

Lets review some quotes:

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

It doesn't sound like that on this page.  It sounds like you got the dump by TDU and was given it from another contributor, which answers one of my important questions.  Mame roms are distributed internally, not from a controlled repository.  It does sound rather blatant, when it comes to securing copyright material.  Where does this dump data go afterwards?   You applaud the Daphne Devs for locking their content (that is still commercially viable) but there is no locking mechanisms in Mame?  Why?

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

Yes this is very accurate of Haze.  Look at this screen shot from his site:



This game is dated 1998, not 1980 or 1984 when the video game industry imploded.  No this is from a Korean company who is trying to make money on a fledgling arcade market.  What does the copyright notice say?  Is it heeded? Is it still valid?  Contacted any Owners?

You can't possibly compare this to people making bootleg boards in order to rip people off and make a quick profit, it's an absurd argument hence why I can't be bothered arguing when that is the context.

OK yet you have support in Mame for the bootlegs of the day.  There is some issues there.  But Mame did support a Xn1 board.  Why?  If the clan is so against the notion?

I totally agree!

I am not practising, the family member that I was talking about (copyright/patent) did read the thread(s) after I sent him the links to get his input and that was basically his response (in fewer words). He stated if the property holders so much as blinked that this would be an instant win for them (which I think we all know would be the obvious outcome).

 

Well there is no real money in Mame, and taking it out would be a PR disaster.  It would stop you guys going rampant with assimilating new games that are not in danger of being lost to the ether.  Mamedevs would be restricted to the existing collection of games.  The work of Mamedevs was not created from day one.  Work from the other emulators of the day was included into Mame, so you cannot pat yourself on the back for all the accomplishment.  We all remember Sparcade? 

I have a busy day ahead of me so I will leave you with this new console game due out on one of the most successful video games of all time.  I do believe Disney holds the character copyright, as does Hasbro for the original arcade game.




Its dire.


But if the original 1980 game was available to purchase, would anyone buy it? 
Yes I know about the other pacman related games.  I'm taking about the original game for the younger generation that revenue could be made from.

[jdbailey1206]

...If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, ....

I agree to this.  Though I would like MAME more to Napster.  Both programs respectively by themselves cause on harm.  But once you put ROMS or songs in them and utilize them with their intended use then you start to run into legal problems.  The funny thing is those who get the legal action brought on them is not the end user who is using the program but the person who actually created it.  When it should be the other way around.  Those who are bringing legal action don't realize that this beast is like the Hydra.  Cut off it's head and two more appear. 

The whole reason I believe no legal action has been taken is because it's not worth the hassle.  By the time you bring action against those who are using ROMS the cost begins to outway the benefits.  In the end the ROMS that are being used just aren't worth it.  That is why you always hear about people getting nuked for movie or music piracy.  Those will retain there value.  Unfortunately games do not. 

As for the 60 in 1's I did not realize that they were being put out by those over seas who had no part of creating the games.  But again unfortunately there is no real international law that would help in stopping the distribution of those boards to the United States. 

That being said I believe that discussions like these should not be hallmarked as something bad for the community.  They can sometimes get heated but that is a debate.  There is a saying that everyone can learn something new everyday.  And that is what I feel these dicussions can do.  Yes they sometimes get winded but if some form of valuable information is taken away from it all the better.  I believe someone said earlier in the discussion that you can lead a horse to a library but you can't make him read.  And  thats the truth.  I don't think anyone should get mad at the opposition but be glad that you may have taught something to someone. 


And to Monkeyvoodoo I believe Le Chuck was going for something more like this. But somehow Morgan Freeman always wins over everybody.   

Also since you were brought up Le Chuck sometimes it's okay to wear a dust mask or sand where there is plenty of ventilation.  Laying off the bottle might be a good thing too.   

In the end I hope that Robedias27 finds an avenue he can go down to solve his problem.  Because this shouldn't be about who in the end is right or wrong but it should be about the fact that he donated to a worthy cause and maybe made someones day a little brighter and showed them how it used to be with games.  Because in the end that is why we are all here.  To keep the memories alive.



Oh crap.  Can someone recommend a good lawyer?  I feel NBC coming after me for using that one.   

[jdbailey1206]

...I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness....

Le Chuck?  How do you think kids are made?  Sex joke.

 

[Le Chuck]

...I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness....

Le Chuck?  How do you think kids are made?  Sex joke.

 

Probably by a bunch of privates in a poorly ventilated workspace under austere conditions.  The government issues them to me just like everything else - doi

They're an accountable item, we have inspections and everything.   

[Haze]

blah blah blah

Like I said I consider your posts / questions trolling and won't respond to them, so give it up.  There is no worth in answering you questions, and once again you're dragging things off-topic. 

I'm here to help educate others (and I feel I'm doing a decent job of that) not feed the troll.

Most of what you say has already been answered anyway, the words neutral, independent, unbiased, and document are the ones you're looking for.

[Haze]

...If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, ....

I agree to this.  Though I would like MAME more to Napster.  Both programs respectively by themselves cause on harm.  But once you put ROMS or songs in them and utilize them with their intended use then you start to run into legal problems.  The funny thing is those who get the legal action brought on them is not the end user who is using the program but the person who actually created it.  When it should be the other way around.  Those who are bringing legal action don't realize that this beast is like the Hydra.  Cut off it's head and two more appear. 

MAME doesn't have built-in file sharing, it's closer to a combination of WinAmp and Wikipedia than Napster.  It has plenty of people using it for good, and undisputed value.

The software is produced with completely different intentions, and has completely different long-term value, so I wouldn't say it is comparable at all.

Something like Napster has no purpose, no value, to the industry.  It's only function was to share MP3 files by connecting users.  It's completely replaceable, and if f you kill it then nothing of value is lost.

MAME on the other hand has immense value, it tells you like an encyclopaedia many things about our history, the good, the bad the ugly. It's a fantastic document and if you kill that you're basically burning history books because you don't like what is contained within them.

[ark_ader]

blah blah blah

Like I said I consider your posts / questions trolling and won't respond to them, so give it up.  There is no worth in answering you questions, and once again you're dragging things off-topic. 

I'm here to help educate others (and I feel I'm doing a decent job of that) not feed the troll.

Most of what you say has already been answered anyway, the words neutral, independent, unbiased, and document are the ones you're looking for.

I agree with the education part totally.

Let us see what I found on my lunch:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/04/ouya-super-gnes-emulator_n_3545805.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_301_Report

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/16/the-legality-of-emulation-part-1-readers-feature-3479741/

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/17/the-legality-of-emulation-part-2-readers-feature-3480905/

http://www.jenkins.eu/articles-general/reverse-engineering.asp

http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/commentary/chn95t1.htm

You will like this one Haze.

Keep quiet Haze and maybe it will all go away.

There again I hear Nintendo(h) is changing policies and looking at ways to improve profits for 2014. 

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

Really?  I just watched Wreck it Ralph.  I didn't see his name in the credits....  On the contrary selling/sharing roms is fuelling the home arcade industry.  Prior to Mame what was Happs margin looking like?

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

Except Pong.

[Haze]

You continue to troll, but the truth is simple, we're still here.  MAME isn't some underground entity that is hard to find, nor have project co-ordinators been some secret impossible to find warez group leaders hiding entirely behind some anonymous pseudonym.  Like I said, I wonder why saint puts up with you here.  It would appear the whole world, except for you, sees the true value of what we do.

[Sjaak]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

[jdbailey1206]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

[Haze]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

The only high profile cases against emulation developed by such techniques have been lost by those pursuing them.  I don't anticipate this changing no matter what fantasy world the trolls here want to live in.

Like I said, the guy has proven over and over again that he is a pure troll, this is the internet, you pull arguments from whatever 2-bit newspapers you want to support any argument you're trying to make, it doesn't make you big or clever, it just makes you an ass, as saint has said himself.  In 17 years the closest Mamedev have come to any actual legal issue is the case with David Foley and the trademark and that would have been started by us had it needed to go that far.
 

[mcseforsale]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

[Sjaak]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

That's what I thought.

I don't see the legal issues with emulating hardware (from a common sense point of view).

In fact, in my line of work we sometimes use commercial terminal emulation software on windows to access legacy systems because nobody has a working VT-100 terminal anymore. This software emulates all kinds of stone age terminals.

This emulation software is used by hospitals, airlines, etc. to access legacy systems, which would otherwise become unusable.

[Haze]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

SW clears a large region of memory address spaces, it's probably ram.
SW writes what appears to be a 32x32 grid of data there, it's probably a tilemap
SW writes a short list of variable length 4-byte entries, it's probably a sprite
SW polls an address, it's probably some kind of io port
SW writes an address with single bits alternating / flipping, some kind of ouput
SW does the same but polls a read address between writes, could be some kind of serial port / eeprom

etc.

obviously it's a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.  we don't actually have to know what the purpose of every bit of code in the software is, nor understand any of the internal game logic, we just have to understand the interactions it is attempting to make with the hardware and what they mean, then implement the emulation of what is there in code.

this of course assumes you already have a working CPU core etc. otherwise you've got a lot more work to do.  luckily one of the many valuable resources contained within MAME is a vast library of well tested CPU cores.

[jdbailey1206]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

That's what I thought.

I don't see the legal issues with emulating hardware (from a common sense point of view).

In fact, in my line of work we sometimes use commercial terminal emulation software on windows to access legacy systems because nobody has a working VT-100 terminal anymore. This software emulates all kinds of stone age terminals.

This emulation software is used by hospitals, airlines, etc. to access legacy systems, which would otherwise become unusable.

Sjaak?  Or do you go by your real name...Miles Dyson!?!

So its your fault for the T-101!  How could you release such a monstrous evil on to the world?     Oh...wait.  VT-100.  Nevermind. 

[Sjaak]

So its your fault for the T-101!  How could you release such a monstrous evil on to the world?     Oh...wait.  VT-100.  Nevermind.

The VT-100 Terminator emulation software is still in beta, but will be released soon. 

[ark_ader]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

 We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

SW clears a large region of memory address spaces, it's probably ram.
SW writes what appears to be a 32x32 grid of data there, it's probably a tilemap
SW writes a short list of variable length 4-byte entries, it's probably a sprite
SW polls an address, it's probably some kind of io port
SW writes an address with single bits alternating / flipping, some kind of ouput
SW does the same but polls a read address between writes, could be some kind of serial port / eeprom

etc.

obviously it's a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.  we don't actually have to know what the purpose of every bit of code in the software is, nor understand any of the internal game logic, we just have to understand the interactions it is attempting to make with the hardware and what they mean, then implement the emulation of what is there in code.

this of course assumes you already have a working CPU core etc. otherwise you've got a lot more work to do.  luckily one of the many valuable resources contained within MAME is a vast library of well tested CPU cores.

The SW hooks. 

OK so why is there protections in the ROM?  Is it deliberate act to slow people down or stop them copying their code?  What about hardware like the main boards, Mame is emulating them too?

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.  Most of the copyright holders do not care, and if they did well it would stop your party pretty quickly.  I am focusing these recent articles on your new baby.  This Universal Mame.  Sorry for not connecting the dots for you.

The gang is not satisfied with a certain era of forgotten gaming, but now concentrating on recent consoles. 

I was having a chat with a colleague about this as he likes classic gaming, and feels that there should be an amnesty on all copyright violations involving emulation.  Which sounds great in theory.

We just have one small problem though.  It would also justify your Chinese pals who create these Xn1 boards.  That shouldn't ever happen.  At least Mame shows the copyright holders name.  Besides anyone can (and do) use mame for commercial purposes.  Just find a PC and fire up a rom and stick it in a cabinet (if they own the main board or game on a different platform, can justify it) as a backup.  That is the crux of the whole argument.  Mame in principal should not allow the games to be played, it is a nice side effect.....

The project is supposed to be about documenting.  Where are these documents?  The schematics of the individual game hardware for people to share and learn?  Or help people with IP ownership to maybe use your valued help (as you have provided in earlier posts) to create a anniversary cabinet with a custom board set or fix an old one?

We can talk about this all year long, but the biggest problem is not the act, but the distribution of the protected items on the internet.  With this prism project in the papers recently, it wouldn't be that hard finding the offenders, well the ISP will be responsible as they are the providers essentially.

Not answering my questions?  I'm not bothered.  Your silence works better for me.

The problem with Haze, that he will give up his secrets.  Just keep him in conversation long enough.   


::::

Sjaak:

Do you have a link for this VT100 emulator? Pricing for volume licensing too.

Thanks

[Vigo]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

[ark_ader]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

I gave that as an example.  Yes they are rare, but there is no reason for a rare software to become free.  Windows 2.0 is rare, it is not free.  Windows NT4 is old and retired but is it free to download off Microsoft's site?  Windows 3.0?   You have to source it and buy it.  That link I gave shows that game board for sale on ebay, and there is a dedicated cabinet too.  Now those sellers will be out of pocket due to Haze's poking around.  Is that fair?  There are many sides to this coin.  Plenty of them are lurking in this forum.

I admire those with arcades in their basements as they represent the true collector.  Does anyone one know what a supergun is?

[Haze]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

Yep, like I said, guy is living in some bubble fantasy land.

He keeps asking questions that have already been answered, again, we work on things in an unbiased and impartial way.

We aim to provide enough information about how things work that somebody could write their own software to run on the hardware we've documented, as new limits of hardware get discovered they get implemented, that is documented in the code we release.  The fact he can't see (read, chooses not to see) this tells you plenty.  An obsession with schematics? For anything newer than Pong they're not going to tell you a great deal about how things work if you want to write software for the board.

I'm starting to think he *is* driverman, just with a different proxy / vpn.  His approach is identical, subjects very similar, trolling a carbon copy, only differing in the style of writing.

He seems to continue to want to draw some type of conclusion that MAME existing justifies xx-in-1 boards somehow (another driverman topic..) or that by MAME emulating them it justifies them (guess what, another driverman topic)  It will remain a completely absurd argument because MAME is a project of great historical, cultural and technical value.  A company selling bootleg boards is not.

[ark_ader]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

Yep, like I said, guy is living in some bubble fantasy land.

He keeps asking questions that have already been answered, again, we work on things in an unbiased and impartial way.

We aim to provide enough information about how things work that somebody could write their own software to run on the hardware we've documented, as new limits of hardware get discovered they get implemented, that is documented in the code we release.  The fact he can't see (read, chooses not to see) this tells you plenty.  An obsession with schematics? For anything newer than Pong they're not going to tell you a great deal about how things work if you want to write software for the board.

I'm starting to think he *is* driverman, just with a different proxy / vpn.  His approach is identical, subjects very similar, trolling a carbon copy, only differing in the style of writing.

He seems to continue to want to draw some type of conclusion that MAME existing justifies xx-in-1 boards somehow (another driverman topic..) or that by MAME emulating them it justifies them (guess what, another driverman topic)  It will remain a completely absurd argument because MAME is a project of great historical, cultural and technical value.  A company selling bootleg boards is not.

For someone who is ignoring me, you are doing a pretty good job.     You need to remind everyone here why you were ousted out of your coordinator position.   

Your spin is amazing sir.   

You need one of these when a suit give you a C&D:





p.s. I mean that in a nice and kind way.

[Haze]

Back to trolling eh? (did you ever stop?) not even with the correct facts.  I have never been ousted from the co-ordinator position.  I handed the project to Aaron to concentrate on actually emulating things because I felt that had more worth to the project.  I continue to feel that way (I fail to see how things like the recent addition of a web-server in MAME so that you can connect to MAME via a browser and see what is running / control certain aspects of it remotely has any value at all)

I was removed from the team at one point because a certain dev got pissy about having their code reverted, when their code was wrong, but now I think a fair number of people have come to realise I was correct in my actions, but that's all internal politics.  If you want to know who has continued to contribute throughout and actually helped improve the emulation significantly over the last few years then look no further.

That's all anicent history too, Aaron has since handed to project to Angelo so that he too could concentrate on other things, and Angelo subsequently handed it to Micko, the MESS co-ordinator for similar reasons, and because having two heads of what was basically the same project didn't really make sense.

I continue to have some differences of opinion on the way MAME should be heading, but remain an active member of the team, and one of the few members actually still putting a lot of work into directly improving our arcade emulation side of things (even if it probably doesn't help my cause when it comes to showing that the core and non-arcade stuff is our driving force these days)

You do make yourself look like an idiot.

Again none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand tho.

saint, please just ban this guy, trolls are not constructive or helpful members of your community here.

[ark_ader]

But they haven't handed it back to you.  Why is that exactly?

A particular web site we know of had a policy where the very mention of your name was an immediate ban


Sure sounded familiar when you rudely interrupted our thread and threatened everyone.

Darn it!

Now I have sunk to his childish methods...forgive me. 

I should know better....


Oh was there a question related to this thread somewhere?

[Haze]

But they haven't handed it back to you.  Why is that exactly?

A particular web site we know of had a policy where the very mention of your name was an immediate ban.

I'll have to dig the thread up, but can you remember that heated discussion?  It was funny in an unfunny way.

Sure sounded familiar when you rudely interrupted our thread and threatened everyone.

Darn it!

Now I have sunk to his childish methods...forgive me. 

I should know better....


Oh was there a question related to this thread somewhere?

Why would they hand it back to me? Why haven't they handed it back to Nicola? Your question is as absurd as every single other thing you say.  The current co-ordinator of Micko makes *perfect* sense because MESS is our primary project these days due to it being the one with the most relevant future and widest potential application.  There is no Mamedev anymore, it exists only as a more familiar way to express what is essentially the MESSdev team these days.

Mameworld?  The admin of a private site were man sausages, they continue to be so.  Their ban on mentioning my site did irreversible damage to MAME because it made the project look dead for those who didn't know the real source of current news was my site.  Bashing me became something of a sport, it probably still is, you continue to do it, because you know I'll fight the correct points because I don't like having people like you try to repeat the same old incorrect garbage until it sticks.  Note, there is no ban on my site being mentioned there now, there is no ban on me registering there now, I choose not to, they decided that having an in-group of people taking photos of women when they weren't looking and posting borderline porn was more important than MAME, they can live and die by that decision for all I care.  Their site, their rules.

You, like other trolls clearly get your kicks from wasting the time of others when it would be better spent elsewhere, sadly until you're banned *somebody* has to come in and correct the absurd rubbish you post before it actually causes harm.

[ark_ader]

I'm sorry Haze that bit of insight was uncalled for.

Please forgive me and let us be civil in this train wreak of a thread.   


So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

[HaRuMaN]

[Haze]

So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Alone? no.

A significant part of many goings on? Yes.

Presenting a lot of the rest of what was going on in a form easy to digest by the general public in the lack of an official WIP page, yes.

Scaring people off? Look at the number of people I've worked with to convert findings into actual emulation, evidence would suggest otherwise, people who come back again and again.  What puts people off is when they put a ton of work into researching things and then find there is little interest from devs in actually taking that further and creating something usable with it.  By showing people you value their input, and putting in the hard work + dedication to make something out of it you encourage further work.

Interestingly I have noticed it's usually the people who have only ever worked alone, on very limited scope parts of MAME who make accusations like that one.

MESS is simply becoming the primary project not because devs have been scared off, but because like I said, it has more scope, there is more to do, it's less restrictive and in many senses more enjoyable to develop for as a result.  The remaining arcade problems are hard, and while the public might not value some of the breakthroughs that have been made over the past year as much as they did 10 years ago a number of them are amazing pieces of work.  The bar to actually be able to pull these things off is forever being set higher and requiring even more time, work, dedication, and in some cases luck!  Very few people are able to give that.

[Le Chuck]

I'm sorry Haze that bit of insight was uncalled for.

Please forgive me and let us be civil in this train wreak of a thread.   


So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Civil and passive aggressive are poor bed fellows at best.