Continuation of HAZE and ark-adr's legal conversation re: MAME, etc.

[mcseforsale]

I'd love to continue this conversation in another thread so the OP of that one isn't drooling and glassy-eyed about any information that he might be receiving.  Being relatively new to MAME, I'd like to hear about the legalities from those who have a dog in the fight, have an accurate memory of history and those who just know a lot more than me.

AJ

[Haze]

I have nothing further to contribute to the debate, the very nature of the arguments being used against MAME is so absurd it simply isn't worth my time.

The guy simply trolls me every chance he gets here, and this is no different, if you're expecting any kind of meaningful conversation where he isn't just twisting every detail to suit out of this then you're mistaken I'm afraid.  He has assumed countless 'roles' in the past and presented trolling / fishing questions under those guises, then tried to manipulate everything that gets said to have another meaning that it's simply pointless.

He will no doubt take this as me being 'unable to defend Mamedev's position' too, but really, if it's that I don't consider him worth the time of day.  All things considered he might as well be driverman because his behavior is nearly identical.  He has no interest in the actual topics, just stirring up things and wasting dev time.

[ark_ader]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

I have nothing further to contribute to the debate, the very nature of the arguments being used against MAME is so absurd it simply isn't worth my time.
 

You seemed to have enough time to rant about 60in1 boards and how you like to bang heads about it.  But when a informed individual starts talking about things that are related to the argument the accuser is a troll.  Well it could be construed as that especially when this person comes along and pops your balloon and asks some damning questions about your involvement in the project especially when you come out with such tripe like Raiden2. 

It is just laughable.  Well I'm still here and the questions on rom distribution for development still needs to be answered.

Better to run away before you get into more trouble than it is worth. 

[Haze]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

blah blah blah , troll troll troll, blah blah blah

[ark_ader]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

blah blah blah , troll troll troll, blah blah blah

One last question:  When you coordinate on a project the size of mame, you obviously have a skills matrix to call on.  As there are different schematics to be read an coded from I am sure each coder has a job.  How do you supply the relevant information to your team?  Is it through a central source / repository or via email?

[PL1]

Where's the "Send this thread to Post Hell because ark_ader is turbo-trolling" button?

OP from original thread has the answer on the legal matter he asked about (No MAME box, no xx-in-1) and I don't think AJ will find what he wants here.

Protip for ark_ader:  Even if you think you hold the moral high ground, flinging poo like a chimp is not a good way to win the hearts and minds of readers.


Scott

[ark_ader]

Where's the "Send this thread to Post Hell because ark_ader is turbo-trolling" button?

OP from original thread has the answer on the legal matter he asked about (No MAME box, no xx-in-1) and I don't think AJ will find what he wants here.

Protip for ark_ader:  Even if you think you hold the moral high ground, flinging poo like a chimp is not a good way to win the hearts and minds of readers.


Scott

Even if the chimp is right in the first place and wrong in the second?

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

[PL1]

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

Then stop complaining about how black Mr. Kettle is, Mr. Pot.

Even if you think you're right, you are driving people away from your case by the way you present it.

If the ASPCA put out an ad showing Hitler petting his German Shepherd with text that reads "Even Hitler loved his dog.  Find a new friend at your local shelter.", what kind of response would it get?

My bet is that most people would focus on the Hitler part instead of the pet adoption part.

I'm suggesting that you should refine your communications skills if you want to convince others instead of alienating them.


Scott

[Fursphere]

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

Then stop complaining about how black Mr. Kettle is, Mr. Pot.

Even if you think you're right, you are driving people away from your case by the way you present it.

If the ASPCA put out an ad showing Hitler petting his German Shepherd with text that reads "Even Hitler loved his dog.  Find a new friend at your local shelter.", what kind of response would it get?

My bet is that most people would focus on the Hitler part instead of the pet adoption part.

I'm suggesting that you should refine your communications skills if you want to convince others instead of alienating them.


Scott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

/thread

[PL1]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.

No equivalence was implied between ark-ader's posts (or anything else related to him) and Hitler so Godwin's Law isn't really applicable here.

Thanks for playing, Fursphere.

BTW Godwin's Law did go through my mind when I was writing that.


Scott

[opt2not]

 

[Fursphere]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.

No equivalence was implied between ark-ader's posts (or anything else related to him) and Hitler so Godwin's Law isn't really applicable here.

Thanks for playing, Fursphere.

BTW Godwin's Law did go through my mind when I was writing that.


Scott

I myself questioned the application of Godwin's law when I posted that.  Given the context of the tread is nothing more than a trolling flame war..... 

[CoryBee]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.
Scott

Hitler wasn't so bad.

[ark_ader]

Hitler wasn't so bad.

Yeah I heard he was an old nice guy that died in Argentina. 

I like how you guys miss the point.  The mamedev comes in the thread as he has a bot that rings a bell on his PC that tells him to stop coding and concentrate on another screen (he probably has 3 like me) he sees 60n1, sounds the red alert, dons his cape and mask and enters the thread to save us from ourselves.  Then gets trapped by his own ineptitude and making laughable comments to side step his obvious mistakes.

Well next time he will look before he leaps.  Banging heads and what not.   

Yes I went overboard, next time I will just point to that thread like some garlic or a crucifix.

Which will send him scampering away.    

[opt2not]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

bonus questions (excuse me, I'm not in the mamedev scene):  What is HAZE and ark_ader's current involvement w/ MAME?  HAZE are you still working/contributing to MAME?  Ark, have you ever contributed to MAME?

[Le Chuck]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

Nearly as I can tell Hitler had an adopted shepherdess who freelanced as a Chinese hacker working for some American expat in England against the Mame devs.  It's all very confusing. 

[PL1]

Further proof nobody reads your posts that carefully unless Rush is involved.   

Looks like Le Chuck called it.

To get Closer to the Heart of the matter, I should have just posted my advice from here.


Scott

[ark_ader]

No just a thread that is a classic like Time Stand Still.

[opt2not]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

[Haze]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

bonus questions (excuse me, I'm not in the mamedev scene):  What is HAZE and ark_ader's current involvement w/ MAME?  HAZE are you still working/contributing to MAME?  Ark, have you ever contributed to MAME?

Yes, I spend at least half of my current days trying to tackle many of the hardest problems in MAME.

Just last week for example I was working with Charles MacDonald and we've finally nailed the proper workings of the 90s Data East protection schemes in MAME so they're now fully understood and much more reliable than they were previous to this, including improvements in things that have been 'working' in MAME for a long time.  There are many many things previous generations of developers left to do, or didn't realise were broken / incomplete!  This includes improving the emulation of significant pieces of arcade history, for example 'Fighters History' the game Capcom attempted to sue Data East over because they felt it was just a copy of Street Fighter 2 due to being a fighting game and having some vaguely similar characters.  Imagine how the shape of the entire industry would be different now if you weren't allowed to create a game that was even a bit like another one?

With that sorted out somebody could easily license the game and do their own emulation package of it using our discoveries if they felt the game still had some value.  Prior to this the information on how those chips work from a software point of view was simply non-existent at this point in time.  Even if the details were on file somewhere Data East as they were back then simply don't exist, the various rights snapped up by random companies with no understanding of the hardware or left in limbo.

I mentioned Fighters History but the work done also gives measurable improvements to Edward Randy, Funky Jet, Super Shanghai, Double Wings and possibly improvements to Rohga and Wizard Fire too.

This kind of work is very important.  Simply having something in debuggable code form on the PC is a valuable resource because there's no better example when you want to port something or write your own emulator than having a working copy.  10 lines of code can speak what it takes 20 pages of technical documents to say with absolute assurance that the code works because you can see it in action.  This is the service Mamedev are providing, for free.

I've said before, for 15 years work on MAME I haven't taken a penny, that's the way it should be.  I do this as somebody interested in our past, and ensuring those who need to access it still can do, and hopefully will always be able to do.

I don't especially care what people do to troll me / the project because I know without a doubt that in 30 years from now, regardless of what insane copyright laws we have by then, people will be saying "thank f**k somebody cared" when it comes to the work we're putting in today.

[ark_ader]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much.  I spoke to an arcade owner last week about why there was so few video games being placed on the floor.  He had a HOTD, but doesn't take much cash due to lack of interest.  Maybe it was the consoles that killed it off, or maybe mobile phone games.  It doesn't help the operator much.

It nice to have a hobby that is so beneficial to so many people.   

[Rick]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

[Le Chuck]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you. 

[Monkeyvoodoo]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

So it's not just me then.

[yotsuya]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you.

***Well-deserved slow 80s clap***

[Wade007]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

I fully agree with this. A huge "Thank you" to Haze and all the other MAME developers!! Long live MAME and Haze!!

[dgame]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much.  I spoke to an arcade owner last week about why there was so few video games being placed on the floor.  He had a HOTD, but doesn't take much cash due to lack of interest.  Maybe it was the consoles that killed it off, or maybe mobile phone games.  It doesn't help the operator much.

It nice to have a hobby that is so beneficial to so many people.   

[ark_ader]

Sticks and stones.  My response was 100% honest and accurate.

Like it or not.  Besides there are more mame coders out there you should be grateful for.   

But it is nice to think Haze has carried the mamedevs all these years.....Not!

Lets put this into some real world perspective.

  This kind of work is very important.  Simply having something in debuggable code form on the PC is a valuable resource because there's no better example when you want to port something or write your own emulator than having a working copy.  10 lines of code can speak what it takes 20 pages of technical documents to say with absolute assurance that the code works because you can see it in action.  This is the service Mamedev are providing, for free.

On Haze's site is a game from 1999 called puzzli 2.  Now I know all about saving game hardware of 35 years ago being so very important, and rightly so.  But a game that is 14 years old?  Has contacts been made to the copyright holder who might be sitting on this IP with the hope to making some money from the exploits of the mamedevs?

Can someone please tell me the latest file size of the current mame distribution?  As when I was looking for more information on this game, the rom was available also.  Since Mamedevs are concentrating on gambling machines now.  Is it safe to surmise that IGT code is fair game (pun intended)?  How far is this project going to go, and what civil boundaries are being observed?

Is there not a code of conduct within the mamedev core?

  Even if the details were on file somewhere Data East as they were back then simply don't exist, the various rights snapped up by random companies with no understanding of the hardware or left in limbo.     

And you know this for certain?  Who's rights? The IP is freely being distributed, the protections cracked by.....?

Research:
  Link

[ark_ader]

Read this:
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/njtip/vol2/iss2/3/

Very interesting and supports both viewpoints in this and another thread.

This is more towards Haze's view which is important to provide impartial references:
link   

[jdbailey1206]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

So it's not just me then.

Its not.  It's really not.

And to answer opt2not's question the thread started off with an innocent enough of a question.  It can be found here.

[WindDrake]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you.

+1. I've been around this forum a long time now, and this is probably some of the meanest, spiteful crap to come outta' someone here in a long time.

[jennifer]

    Ok... Now I just dont understand you Ark, In the original thread your talking about wiping your fingerprints off a dvd, then taping it in the cab (Before donating it) This just kinda says you know it was wrong, yet here like 3 threads later your dumping on the devs, and the whole concept of Mame. So what exactly is your point?

[ark_ader]

My point is that you can freely give roms away that are on the Mame.Net website, including all the bootlegs out there.

The gloves and blank DVD is a joke, as we were having a merry old time helping the OP out, giving suggestions like Xarcade discs, and PC games.

My mistake was to introduce the possibility that you can use a 60n1 in an arcade cabinet at home, as long as you do not use it for commercial purposes.  Haze takes exception to this as he hates those who steal his (I would be upset too) and many others freely given time to promote a commercial turnkey solution which isn't fair to the copyright owners. ( hypocrisy) 

I agree with him totally, but his methods show a contradiction as the Mamedevs incorporated one of these Xn1 boards into their collective, which somehow justifies the illegal device's existence.  Confused yet? 

So....when we mentioned the magic word 60n1 Haze's RSS bat alarm rang and he waded in to our conversation threatening to bang our heads and call us all morons for even thinking about 60n1 boards.  From that point on he became my target of questions relating to mamedev rom dumping and distribution.  Which he is silent about yet calls me a troll for asking those rather difficult questions.  In short Haze feeds the fire of his own discontent through his own actions, and it is our fault for discussing it in some way.      

    Ok... Now I just dont understand you Ark, In the original thread your talking about wiping your fingerprints off a dvd, then taping it in the cab (Before donating it) This just kinda says you know it was wrong, yet here like 3 threads later your dumping on the devs, and the whole concept of Mame. So what exactly is your point?

[UFO]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

+1 

[DGP]

ark_ader,

You make valid points here and there, however the manner in which you pointed them out was somewhat rude (which you admitted... so let's all move along ).

 

While we all can (and do) appreciate the years of work that has gone into M.A.M.E. it is pretty obvious that those responsible have to walk around on egg shells since they are the ones that enabled the rest of us (pay attention to that word as that is key here from a legal perspective).

If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, which from a legal perspective they had no right to create to begin with and they know it (regardless of their stance that it is not the purpose of M.A.M.E. to actually play the games but instead to emulate them as accurately as possible, this obviously makes no difference).

I am not taking sides here as it is a subject with many questionable aspects, all of which can be debated, but in the end it's all a legal cluster  .
 
Jason

[Le Chuck]

Ya know, in the Army we have this creature called a Barracks Lawyer.  He's not at all elusive and is likely to be found "telling it like it is" or "letting everyone know what's really up".  Often times his advice is well meaning and grounded in some fictional notion of the way things should be according to him rather than the way they are.  It is of note that this person is never a lawyer, law maker, judge, or in a position to directly influence or accurately interpret statements from any of those aforementioned legal professionals. 

Now we all tend from time to time to feel the urge to tell it like it is and if you've never had your turn as the Barracks Lawyer you're either due, or are currently that creature and unaware of the fact.  I personally like the Barracks Lawyer.  I find his banter and consternation at others amusing.  My favorite interactions are when I'm administering UCMJ to the Barracks Lawyer and watching him get the boo-boo face.  This is; however, often a temporary set back for the breed as there is no shortage of folks waiting to fill his shoes.

Here on the forums there seems to be an abundance of Barracks Lawyers and a marked lack of his natural enemy - the Authorities.  Like any ecosystem this imbalance is responsible for the over population and I soon fear a shortage of the Barracks Lawyers'  food source, people willing to entertain the BL's ramblings, may lead to massive die offs until such time as equilibrium is reestablished and the cycle begins again.

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner. 

[Maximus]

WELL I THINK AMERICANS ARE ALL STUPID!!!



Carry on.

[DGP]

Ya know, in the Army we have this creature called a Barracks Lawyer.  He's not at all elusive and is likely to be found "telling it like it is" or "letting everyone know what's really up".  Often times his advice is well meaning and grounded in some fictional notion of the way things should be according to him rather than the way they are.  It is of note that this person is never a lawyer, law maker, judge, or in a position to directly influence or accurately interpret statements from any of those aforementioned legal professionals. 

Now we all tend from time to time to feel the urge to tell it like it is and if you've never had your turn as the Barracks Lawyer you're either due, or are currently that creature and unaware of the fact.  I personally like the Barracks Lawyer.  I find his banter and consternation at others amusing.  My favorite interactions are when I'm administering UCMJ to the Barracks Lawyer and watching him get the boo-boo face.  This is; however, often a temporary set back for the breed as there is no shortage of folks waiting to fill his shoes.

Here on the forums there seems to be an abundance of Barracks Lawyers and a marked lack of his natural enemy - the Authorities.  Like any ecosystem this imbalance is responsible for the over population and I soon fear a shortage of the Barracks Lawyers'  food source, people willing to entertain the BL's ramblings, may lead to massive die offs until such time as equilibrium is reestablished and the cycle begins again.

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner.

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

Aside from that, if the actual property holders were as concerned as everyone else appears to be none of us would be here discussing it on a public forum.

Has there been even a single case of any legal action taken against M.A.M.E. (other than Atari doing some ruffling I am not aware of anything else)?

*Oh and I want to be clear that I am not advocating what ark_ader was trying to accomplish, I am not taking sides here, just friendly banter.

 

[Monkeyvoodoo]

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner.

[Haze]

I still don't see how anybody can compare what Mamedev are doing for free (which I consider noble cause) to people who are taking advantage of that for personal gain.

The two are worlds apart, the things we do are with a long term vision, for the good of everybody.  We don't want a situation like the BBC has now where old episodes of shows like Doctor Who can't be found anywhere, or are on completely inaccessible media and it's a miracle if they show up at all.

To be honest we already face that, for things like the recently discovered Desert Dan there was no record of it at all anywhere until it was found, Planet Probe existed only in the mind of somebody who remembered a few gameplay elements and the high score music.  You can talk about games from 1999, but in gaming terms that was an eternity ago, we didn't even know that game existed until it turned up and in the age of global information that should tell you plenty.

The point is MAME remains neutral, we do what we do for the reasons we do it, we believe this has a value.  We believe that it's better to do this while we can than attempt to pick at scraps of information 20 years down the line because somebody has idealistic views of what we should be looking at.  MAME is a history book, MAME is a resource

You can't possibly compare this to people making bootleg boards in order to rip people off and make a quick profit, it's an absurd argument hence why I can't be bothered arguing when that is the context.