Legal Questions: Donating a Cab

[Robedias27]

This is my first post here, I'd like to start a project aimed at donating a cabinet to a benefit auction.

Every year, Gateway Woods children's home in Leo, IN holds an auction to raise funds for operating costs. This year's auction raised almost $500,000. They auction off donated items from individuals and local businesses. It brings  a huge crowd, and is quite the spectacle. My brother-in-law and his wife work there as houseparents...so I'd like to build an arcade cabinet for the auction next year. I've been interested in doing so for some time...but just recently got the idea to donate it.

LEGALLY...what type of software or games could I put on the arcade machine if I were to donate it to such an event? The proceeds go to the home, so there's no personal gain involved. Would I be limited to retail Windows games like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat (in which case, I would buy a boxed game and include the box/media with the machine)? would MAME and other such emulators be out of the question? My intention would be to make it as user friendly as possible because I wouldn't know who would be buying it. It would essentially be something fun and challenging to build, and I've got about a year to do it. Cabinet quality would be priority...but I'd just like to know what you "professional enthusiasts" would have to say.

I'm open to suggestions, any advice is much appreciated.

[paigeoliver]

Buy a real arcade game on craigslist and spruce it up and then donate it to the auction.

Anything else will not only cost you a ton more but also runs into a bunch of legal liabilities and will likely end up as a dead machine in someone's house in a matter of weeks, ruined by a simple windows config problem, or stickykeys or a front end that stopped working.

You can't actually legally resell most PC games.

[severdhed]

you may want to look into one of those xxx-in-1 multigame jamma systems instead.  ( as for which one, i have no idea, but i'm sure there are those here who have used them). 

[Haze]

you may want to look into one of those xxx-in-1 multigame jamma systems instead.  ( as for which one, i have no idea, but i'm sure there are those here who have used them).

He said he wanted to do it legally.  Those aren't an option, there's nothing legal about them.

[WindDrake]

I'd go the real machine route, using either a dedicated board or one of the licensed Multigame boards (Namco Classics, etc.).

[McHale]

Another vote for a classic game - something like Donkey Kong, Centipede, Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, etc.  When people start bidding on Nostalgia, there's no end to some of their wallets.  You can pick up one in good condition for less than what you would put into a good MAME cabinet.

[Malenko]

to be legal, the only real way to do it is an arcade PCB. If you want multiple games, there's namco collections and things of that nature. A non arcadey alternate would be an XBOX with a couple of controller hacks and then a buncha XBOX games. Capcom has a couple of xbox collections, so did intellivision, and there are a ton of arcade control friendly games, like DoA and Soul Calibur (and things of that ilk)

[jennifer]

Buy a real arcade game on craigslist and spruce it up and then donate it to the auction.

Anything else will not only cost you a ton more but also runs into a bunch of legal liabilities and will likely end up as a dead machine in someone's house in a matter of weeks, ruined by a simple windows config problem, or stickykeys or a front end that stopped working.

You can't actually legally resell most PC games.

Yes off the craigslist...Jennifer laughs and laughs...No really, Paigeoliver is correct here, the roms would be in question legally, so the only real option would be get OEM.

[BadMouth]

I think you'd be safe to included the collections of PC ports and for good measure didn't install a coin door.

Would it be ok to auction off an arcade machine with a licensed windows PC that included no games? - yes
Would it be ok to auction off the CD-Roms in retail packaging? - yes

I know the games in midway arcade treasures can be launched individually (add -f to the command line for fullscreen)
I have a stack of others that came with my x-arcade tankstick, but I've never messed with them.
Others include Namco Museum, Atari Classics, Mortal Kombat Kollection, Metal Slug Collection
Some can be hard to find or expensive if they're out of print.

Including a xxx-in 1 board IS illegal, but I've never heard of anyone getting busted for it.
They're sold openly on ebay, amazon, arcade auctions and home shows all the time.

[jennifer]

   You sure would think so... However, I was playing a mario bros (SNES) the game finally wore out from years of use, the console popped up a message on how piracy and copying is illegal... At the time I was mad cause the console blacklisted my licensed tape, but then It came to me, they Don't want you copying their games even back then... Today piracy laws are worse. and their stance on copies is pretty well documented.

[jdbailey1206]

you may want to look into one of those xxx-in-1 multigame jamma systems instead.  ( as for which one, i have no idea, but i'm sure there are those here who have used them).

+1.  It would be smart to put something out there that would be 'turnkey'.  By this I mean you want to give something that people can just have fun with, not have to work to enjoy and you wont have to worry about anyone getting into any trouble for using.  If you arent familiar with 60-1 projects just google 60 in 1 jamma board and you can find many people have already done this and it should t be an issue.  Also the good thing about this is you can find used cabinets that can be refurbished for next to nothing.

[ark_ader]

   You sure would think so... However, I was playing a mario bros (SNES) the game finally wore out from years of use, the console popped up a message on how piracy and copying is illegal... At the time I was mad cause the console blacklisted my licensed tape, but then It came to me, they Don't want you copying their games even back then... Today piracy laws are worse. and their stance on copies is pretty well documented.

You were playing a region locked game and you got that message.  Putting another game that was within your region would have let you continued playing.  This is due to a lockout chip on the SNES.  I would like you to list the notable stances on piracy except maybe the Foley debacle, but in relation for distributing abandonware games, expecially Nintendoh and Sega.  They don't give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, and if they did we would have heard something by now.  Yes it is a moral question and a civil law one too.


I would build a cab and get a Xarcade Game Disk or a DVD of your favorites and put some gloves on, do not mark the disc and tape it to the inside of the cabinet.  Nobody is going to call the cops on you.     Heck I bet cops that are in this hobby have more roms than me. 

BTW 60-in1 boards can get you into trouble.  Better stick with the Xarcade disk or something related and not related to you...

[SavannahLion]

You can't actually legally resell most PC games.

Despite what companies would tell you, this is absolutely not true. People have been buying and reselling games for years and there is no court anywhere that would side with the company in this regard. Exception with regards to pirated games and recent vintage games that specifically leverage the DMCA of course.

 The market for used PC games is virtually nonexistent compared to console games of the same vintage. Never cared to speculate why so I suppose that's a different discussion.

However if you're talking about media-free games like those from Steam or Live! then you won't broker an argument from me. I honestly don't care much for these distribution methods and I imagine the market will become further segregated in the gaming community.

[jennifer]

   Legal threats @ the bay would be one source of information,a fun read, Torrentfreak news, also documents rights holder opinions, and here on this forum a thread about takedown notice for a Mame on Ebay, When your done with those I can find you more if you wish.... But Im not here to say yes or no on the subject of copyrights, or how you live your life in regards to, Or if you think its your given right. Just to point out the fact its not a good idea to sell or give away downloaded ROMS in a public venue.

[tkeahi]

If you're looking for a legal multicade....how about an ultracade? They were sold as legal and licensed systems. Whether that is actually true is open for debate, but as far as I know Ultracade's ROM licensing issues have never been challenged in court.

[SavannahLion]

   Legal threats @ the bay would be one source of information,a fun read, Torrentfreak news, also documents rights holder opinions, and here on this forum a thread about takedown notice for a Mame on Ebay, When your done with those I can find you more if you wish.... But Im not here to say yes or no on the subject of copyrights, or how you live your life in regards to, Or if you think its your given right. Just to point out the fact its not a good idea to sell or give away downloaded ROMS in a public venue.

I'm sorry, was that intended to be a response to my post?

[jennifer]

    No SavannahLion, And sorry to worry you, in fact What you said is true... I was responding to ark,

[ark_ader]

   Legal threats @ the bay would be one source of information,a fun read, Torrentfreak news, also documents rights holder opinions, and here on this forum a thread about takedown notice for a Mame on Ebay, When your done with those I can find you more if you wish.... But Im not here to say yes or no on the subject of copyrights, or how you live your life in regards to, Or if you think its your given right. Just to point out the fact its not a good idea to sell or give away downloaded ROMS in a public venue.

The ebay take downs were from Foley and that was pot calling the kettle black while he was trying to steal the mame name.  The rest is for actual games that are still available for sale.  Not 30 year old games that time forgot.  So quote away Jen. 

[Rick]

If you're looking for a legal multicade....how about an ultracade? They were sold as legal and licensed systems. Whether that is actually true is open for debate, but as far as I know Ultracade's ROM licensing issues have never been challenged in court.

I was at the Playdium Store this week, and they're selling multiple versions of this right now. Each one are branded with "Licensed by Atari" and "Licensed by Taito" logos. I can't see a large chain like Playdium risking copyright infringement, so I'm guessing they're legit.

[Haze]

you may want to look into one of those xxx-in-1 multigame jamma systems instead.  ( as for which one, i have no idea, but i'm sure there are those here who have used them).

+1.  It would be smart to put something out there that would be 'turnkey'.  By this I mean you want to give something that people can just have fun with, not have to work to enjoy and you wont have to worry about anyone getting into any trouble for using.  If you arent familiar with 60-1 projects just google 60 in 1 jamma board and you can find many people have already done this and it should t be an issue.  Also the good thing about this is you can find used cabinets that can be refurbished for next to nothing.

-100000

as he said, he wants to do it the legal way, that's the whole point of the question.

the 60-in-1 boards are 100% illegal, doesn't matter if you 'won't get into trouble' for it, it's still illegal and you could, especially if it was then to be operated in a commercial setting.  You probably wouldn't get into trouble for using MAME either, but it's also 100% illegal for use such situations (because for a start our license forbids it)

Morons who recommend these things as a legal solution need their heads bashing against brick walls.

[jdbailey1206]

you may want to look into one of those xxx-in-1 multigame jamma systems instead.  ( as for which one, i have no idea, but i'm sure there are those here who have used them).

+1.  It would be smart to put something out there that would be 'turnkey'.  By this I mean you want to give something that people can just have fun with, not have to work to enjoy and you wont have to worry about anyone getting into any trouble for using.  If you arent familiar with 60-1 projects just google 60 in 1 jamma board and you can find many people have already done this and it should t be an issue.  Also the good thing about this is you can find used cabinets that can be refurbished for next to nothing.

-100000

as he said, he wants to do it the legal way, that's the whole point of the question.

the 60-in-1 boards are 100% illegal, doesn't matter if you 'won't get into trouble' for it, it's still illegal and you could, especially if it was then to be operated in a commercial setting.  You probably wouldn't get into trouble for using MAME either, but it's also 100% illegal for use such situations (because for a start our license forbids it)

Morons who recommend these things as a legal solution need their heads bashing against brick walls.

"...need their heads bashing against brick walls."  Did you mean you want my head 'bashed against a wall?'  Yeah.  I'm the moron.  Using a 60 in 1 is a very grey area.  I never said it was safe.  But it was an avenue he could explore.  Plus I could see if Robedias27 was selling 100 or more of his creations for profit but he is putting one together for an auction.  One.  Plus the donation is going to keep a childrens home in operation so I don't think that there will be any repercussions since he is making no monetary gain. 

I would agree with most and stay away from MAME.  In that aspect you are dealing with emulation and ROMS and thats a no no.

[lcmgadgets]

I think this is a great idea in any event. Yeah, ease of playability & nostalgia value matter a lot.

I was at the Playdium Store this week, and they're selling multiple versions of this right now. Each one are branded with "Licensed by Atari" and "Licensed by Taito" logos. I can't see a large chain like Playdium risking copyright infringement, so I'm guessing they're legit.

I've seen these at Playdium in Toronto. Like u say, Playdium wouldn't risk a court battle.

[Malenko]

And being a moron please explain to me how selling a 60 in 1 board is illegal since so many companies are selling them.
I would agree with most and stay away from MAME.  That you are dealing with emulation and ROMS and thats a no no.

I dont advocate bashing anyones head in, I prefer to educate them. The 60 in 1 boards are illegal because they use unlicensed ROMs and they are based on MAME, just an older version. So in essence they are using roms and mame just on a PC that outputs via JAMMA.

[jdbailey1206]

I dont advocate bashing anyones head in, I prefer to educate them. The 60 in 1 boards are illegal because they use unlicensed ROMs and they are based on MAME, just an older version. So in essence they are using roms and mame just on a PC that outputs via JAMMA.

I wasn't vilifying you Malenko.  I was disputing the severity of which Haze decided to speak against my response with.  The idea that Robedias has is an excellent one.  I can't read this post without being reminded of the Blues Brothers movie. 

[yotsuya]

I can't read this post without being reminded of the Blues Brothers movie.

"We're 106 miles from Chicago, we have a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." 

[Malenko]

I wasn't vilifying you Malenko.  I was disputing the severity of which Haze decided to speak against my response with.  The idea that Robedias has is an excellent one.  I can't read this post without being reminded of the Blues Brothers movie.

Not taken that way, no worries.
I can understand his emotion, since he was tied so close with MAME development. I understand his side, and yours too. That being said 60 in 1s arent legal and since the OP wanted to stay legal, that disqualifies the notion. If the Op doesnt care about the legal or moral grey area, thats something else.

I dont have a dog in this fight, I have a 60 in 1 in my Galaga cab (with everything disabled except Ms Pac, Ms Pac Fast, Galaga, and Galaga Fast Shot , my MsPac is in the basement so I play on my Galaga in the living room) mostly because I had to pull the hacked to death wiring out of the inside of the Galaga when I fixed it up and Jamma is great.

As for Ultracades, I believe the new ones are legit and licensed. The Foley era...not so much.

[lilshawn]

the console blacklisted my licensed tape

my mother used to call them nintendo tapes...and before that atari tapes. 


If you read the EULA on the xbox, you see that opening/modifying it in any way voids your warranty and is infringing on their intellectual property (since you have to falsely sign any of the code you put in to the xbox that isn't from microsoft to get it to run on the system.)

Everything you do these days is illegal, much is some of the things that go on here. But we all take our chances and know the repercussions of our actions (sometimes).

[mcseforsale]

My suggestion has always been to have anyone who owns this IP to sell ROMs to individuals for a nickel a piece and for corporates, a dollar.  That would open a small revenue stream for companies who otherwise have abandoned these ROMs.

AJ

[mcseforsale]

From Mamedev.org "legal" section (if you want to call dodgeball legal)

Q. Can my non-profit use MAME or an arcade cabinet running MAME to help raise money?
A. No, sorry. Even for the most worthwhile cause, this still is a commercial use of MAME and is prohibited by the license.

So, Mame's off the counter. 

Let's limit the leg-lifting contests in this thread (or, by all means, start another thread that I'd love to participate in) so the OP doesn't think we're a bunch of grumpy old farts.

AJ

[ark_ader]

From Mamedev.org "legal" section (if you want to call dodgeball legal)

Q. Can my non-profit use MAME or an arcade cabinet running MAME to help raise money?
A. No, sorry. Even for the most worthwhile cause, this still is a commercial use of MAME and is prohibited by the license.

So, Mame's off the counter. 

And it looks like the 60in1 is back in contention considering......

[Haze]

From Mamedev.org "legal" section (if you want to call dodgeball legal)

Q. Can my non-profit use MAME or an arcade cabinet running MAME to help raise money?
A. No, sorry. Even for the most worthwhile cause, this still is a commercial use of MAME and is prohibited by the license.

So, Mame's off the counter. 

And it looks like the 60in1 is back in contention considering......

You're an idiot.  The 60-in-1s are not in contention and never will be.

[saint]

Morality/Philosophy discussion forked: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133844.0.html

xx-in-1 products are illegal AFAIK because they have not acquired licenses for the ROMs bundled in the product. There is one notable exception where you install your own ROMs on the board. In that case, the legality would lie on whether or not *you* acquired the ROMs legally and have the legal right to sell them in this cabinet. I'm fairly certain that the answer to that will be no, making it a moot point, but technically there is one xx-in-1 board that I think is possibly legal. I don't know if it uses MAME code and if violating the MAME EULA constitutes a legal violation or just a moral violation, but that's irrelevant for this discussion anyway. Your desire for a legal option lives and dies on the legality of the ROMs.  xx-in-1 doesn't meet your criteria.

[Robedias27]

Thanks very much for your opinions and information. I DO maintain a strict moral code when it comes to this stuff. The Children's home is very closely associated with my church, so even if I thought I could get away with something, I'm representing a group bigger than myself. Regardless it appears I only have potentially 3 options?...

1. Purchase and refurb an old cab
2. Construct a new cab for an old board?
3. Construct a new cab and only use modern windows games? (3 or 4 arcade type games) <-scratch nostalgia factor

This thread has confirmed for me that ROM's are not an option. Thanks again for the conversation. (additional comments welcome)

[BadMouth]

3. Construct a new cab and only use modern windows games? (3 or 4 arcade type games) <-scratch nostalgia factor

I should have elaborated above when I mentioned that the Midway Arcade Treasures games could be launched individually and fullscreen.
That means they can be launched by a front-end just like MAME games and would provide the same experience (depending on how good the port is vs emulation in MAME, but most people wouldn't know the difference).  I'm assuming at least some of the other collections can be used the same way, but it may be a PITA to figure out the fullscreen command line switch.

I was going to post a link to buy it, but couldn't find any at reasonable prices. 

I think I still have the Deluxe version if you would like to go this route.  If you do, I'll mail it to you.
I bought it for the racing games that aren't playable on emulators, but it turns out that half of them don't support analog controls like steering wheels.
The upside for you would be that these same games were tweaked to work well with keyboard or joystick instead.

MAT3Deluxe includes:
APB
Arch Rivals
Badlands
Championship Sprint
Cyberball 2072
Gauntlet II
Hard Drivin’
Kozmik Krooz'r
Hydro Thunder
Mortal Kombat
Mortal Kombat II
Mortal Kombat 3
NARC
Offroad Thunder
Pit-Fighter
Primal Rage
Race Drivin
Rampage World Tour
San Francisco Rush 2049
San Francisco Rush the Rock: Alcatraz Edition
S.T.U.N. Runner
Super Off Road with bonus Track-Pak
Timber
Total Carnage
Wacko
Wizard of Wor
Xenophobe
Xybots

[Vigo]

1. Purchase and refurb an old cab
I would try to find a fully working cab and clean and fix it up cosmetically. Also doesn't hurt to try to get something very common so you are not stuck trying to find rare parts. For a first project, I would at least make sure the arcade monitor is in good condition. fill any dents and repaint the sides, get some new artwork printed, some fresh t-molding, get some shiny new buttons and joysticks, and you will probably have an auction worthy cabinet.

2. Construct a new cab for an old board?
This is done plenty. I'd recommend something like a pacman cocktail, those seem to have pretty mass appeal. 

3. Construct a new cab and only use modern windows games? (3 or 4 arcade type games) <-scratch nostalgia factor
This is my recommendation. You don't need to scratch the nostalgia factor if you don't want to. You can theme your cab however you want, and put in whatever games you want. And like BadMouth said, you can legally put on classic arcade games via those "arcade collection" games. It also leaves the door open for the person buying the machine to put on their own roms if they like, or add whatever games they like. You can also use stuff like an LCD monitor that is gonna be much easier to work with and easier to find. Another route you could take is having the cab run a console like an xbox 360 or PS3. It takes away the element that you have to worry about the buyer running into PC troubles. Buy a console, download Pacman championship edition for 10 bucks, and let the buyer worry about adding any other games they want.

If you plan on doing this more than just one year, you consider building a simple design cab like my vigolix for your first year.
And I know I end up over-recommending my build, but it is a great beginner project.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,119533.0.html

I scrounged, but it only cost me around $100. I also put it together over just a couple weekends. After doing something like this, you will be much more primed for a bigger project during the next year. Full builds tend to take much longer than planned, and I can be very hard working against a deadline.

[Haze]

btw this kind of thing is also why I was encouraging the guy posting his 'Alien Swarm' game
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133134.0.html
to make it cab compatible and behave like a real arcade game

If people create things like that it gives a fully legal option to run on cabs like this, especially if they're also made cross-platform with Linux versions available (no worry about Windows licenses for different purposes either that way)

[Malenko]

I would gladly donate the disc that came with my hotrod a few years ago, I also have the PC version of Street Fighter Alpha 2 and MK3. LMK if interested.

[ark_ader]

btw this kind of thing is also why I was encouraging the guy posting his 'Alien Swarm' game
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133134.0.html
to make it cab compatible and behave like a real arcade game

If people create things like that it gives a fully legal option to run on cabs like this, especially if they're also made cross-platform with Linux versions available (no worry about Windows licenses for different purposes either that way)

Android is very cab friendly too.

[Rick]

btw this kind of thing is also why I was encouraging the guy posting his 'Alien Swarm' game
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133134.0.html
to make it cab compatible and behave like a real arcade game

I took my kids to Chuck E Cheeses earlier in the week - right when they opened - and was pretty surprised when all of their machines booted into Windows XP. They had a lightgun shooter, a couple of race cabs, and even the Guitar Hero machine, all running XP. I guess companies really aren't building 'board specific' games any more...

[Vigo]

Well, we all know that the guitar hero team doesn't want to be bothered with details like creating their own proprietary material. It is simply too much effort for a business giant to be bothered creating something original for themselves.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,110744