Continuation of HAZE and ark-adr's legal conversation re: MAME, etc.

[mcseforsale]

I'd love to continue this conversation in another thread so the OP of that one isn't drooling and glassy-eyed about any information that he might be receiving.  Being relatively new to MAME, I'd like to hear about the legalities from those who have a dog in the fight, have an accurate memory of history and those who just know a lot more than me.

AJ

[Haze]

I have nothing further to contribute to the debate, the very nature of the arguments being used against MAME is so absurd it simply isn't worth my time.

The guy simply trolls me every chance he gets here, and this is no different, if you're expecting any kind of meaningful conversation where he isn't just twisting every detail to suit out of this then you're mistaken I'm afraid.  He has assumed countless 'roles' in the past and presented trolling / fishing questions under those guises, then tried to manipulate everything that gets said to have another meaning that it's simply pointless.

He will no doubt take this as me being 'unable to defend Mamedev's position' too, but really, if it's that I don't consider him worth the time of day.  All things considered he might as well be driverman because his behavior is nearly identical.  He has no interest in the actual topics, just stirring up things and wasting dev time.

[ark_ader]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

I have nothing further to contribute to the debate, the very nature of the arguments being used against MAME is so absurd it simply isn't worth my time.
 

You seemed to have enough time to rant about 60in1 boards and how you like to bang heads about it.  But when a informed individual starts talking about things that are related to the argument the accuser is a troll.  Well it could be construed as that especially when this person comes along and pops your balloon and asks some damning questions about your involvement in the project especially when you come out with such tripe like Raiden2. 

It is just laughable.  Well I'm still here and the questions on rom distribution for development still needs to be answered.

Better to run away before you get into more trouble than it is worth. 

[Haze]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

blah blah blah , troll troll troll, blah blah blah

[ark_ader]

Time to run away and hide.

 


Seriously Haze is those questions so difficult to answer?

Will it keep you up all night.   No.

We know the answers don't we?

Will it open doors that should be locked shut?

blah blah blah , troll troll troll, blah blah blah

One last question:  When you coordinate on a project the size of mame, you obviously have a skills matrix to call on.  As there are different schematics to be read an coded from I am sure each coder has a job.  How do you supply the relevant information to your team?  Is it through a central source / repository or via email?

[PL1]

Where's the "Send this thread to Post Hell because ark_ader is turbo-trolling" button?

OP from original thread has the answer on the legal matter he asked about (No MAME box, no xx-in-1) and I don't think AJ will find what he wants here.

Protip for ark_ader:  Even if you think you hold the moral high ground, flinging poo like a chimp is not a good way to win the hearts and minds of readers.


Scott

[ark_ader]

Where's the "Send this thread to Post Hell because ark_ader is turbo-trolling" button?

OP from original thread has the answer on the legal matter he asked about (No MAME box, no xx-in-1) and I don't think AJ will find what he wants here.

Protip for ark_ader:  Even if you think you hold the moral high ground, flinging poo like a chimp is not a good way to win the hearts and minds of readers.


Scott

Even if the chimp is right in the first place and wrong in the second?

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

[PL1]

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

Then stop complaining about how black Mr. Kettle is, Mr. Pot.

Even if you think you're right, you are driving people away from your case by the way you present it.

If the ASPCA put out an ad showing Hitler petting his German Shepherd with text that reads "Even Hitler loved his dog.  Find a new friend at your local shelter.", what kind of response would it get?

My bet is that most people would focus on the Hitler part instead of the pet adoption part.

I'm suggesting that you should refine your communications skills if you want to convince others instead of alienating them.


Scott

[Fursphere]

Moral high ground? 

No sir.  I found it apt that we were both in similar camps.

Then stop complaining about how black Mr. Kettle is, Mr. Pot.

Even if you think you're right, you are driving people away from your case by the way you present it.

If the ASPCA put out an ad showing Hitler petting his German Shepherd with text that reads "Even Hitler loved his dog.  Find a new friend at your local shelter.", what kind of response would it get?

My bet is that most people would focus on the Hitler part instead of the pet adoption part.

I'm suggesting that you should refine your communications skills if you want to convince others instead of alienating them.


Scott

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

/thread

[PL1]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.

No equivalence was implied between ark-ader's posts (or anything else related to him) and Hitler so Godwin's Law isn't really applicable here.

Thanks for playing, Fursphere.

BTW Godwin's Law did go through my mind when I was writing that.


Scott

[opt2not]

 

[Fursphere]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.

No equivalence was implied between ark-ader's posts (or anything else related to him) and Hitler so Godwin's Law isn't really applicable here.

Thanks for playing, Fursphere.

BTW Godwin's Law did go through my mind when I was writing that.


Scott

I myself questioned the application of Godwin's law when I posted that.  Given the context of the tread is nothing more than a trolling flame war..... 

[CoryBee]

Hitler was used in the example because I'm pretty sure we all agree that he is a Really Bad Guy.
Scott

Hitler wasn't so bad.

[ark_ader]

Hitler wasn't so bad.

Yeah I heard he was an old nice guy that died in Argentina. 

I like how you guys miss the point.  The mamedev comes in the thread as he has a bot that rings a bell on his PC that tells him to stop coding and concentrate on another screen (he probably has 3 like me) he sees 60n1, sounds the red alert, dons his cape and mask and enters the thread to save us from ourselves.  Then gets trapped by his own ineptitude and making laughable comments to side step his obvious mistakes.

Well next time he will look before he leaps.  Banging heads and what not.   

Yes I went overboard, next time I will just point to that thread like some garlic or a crucifix.

Which will send him scampering away.    

[opt2not]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

bonus questions (excuse me, I'm not in the mamedev scene):  What is HAZE and ark_ader's current involvement w/ MAME?  HAZE are you still working/contributing to MAME?  Ark, have you ever contributed to MAME?

[Le Chuck]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

Nearly as I can tell Hitler had an adopted shepherdess who freelanced as a Chinese hacker working for some American expat in England against the Mame devs.  It's all very confusing. 

[PL1]

Further proof nobody reads your posts that carefully unless Rush is involved.   

Looks like Le Chuck called it.

To get Closer to the Heart of the matter, I should have just posted my advice from here.


Scott

[ark_ader]

No just a thread that is a classic like Time Stand Still.

[opt2not]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

[Haze]

I honestly don't really know what this whole thing is about... cliff notes? Previous thread?

bonus questions (excuse me, I'm not in the mamedev scene):  What is HAZE and ark_ader's current involvement w/ MAME?  HAZE are you still working/contributing to MAME?  Ark, have you ever contributed to MAME?

Yes, I spend at least half of my current days trying to tackle many of the hardest problems in MAME.

Just last week for example I was working with Charles MacDonald and we've finally nailed the proper workings of the 90s Data East protection schemes in MAME so they're now fully understood and much more reliable than they were previous to this, including improvements in things that have been 'working' in MAME for a long time.  There are many many things previous generations of developers left to do, or didn't realise were broken / incomplete!  This includes improving the emulation of significant pieces of arcade history, for example 'Fighters History' the game Capcom attempted to sue Data East over because they felt it was just a copy of Street Fighter 2 due to being a fighting game and having some vaguely similar characters.  Imagine how the shape of the entire industry would be different now if you weren't allowed to create a game that was even a bit like another one?

With that sorted out somebody could easily license the game and do their own emulation package of it using our discoveries if they felt the game still had some value.  Prior to this the information on how those chips work from a software point of view was simply non-existent at this point in time.  Even if the details were on file somewhere Data East as they were back then simply don't exist, the various rights snapped up by random companies with no understanding of the hardware or left in limbo.

I mentioned Fighters History but the work done also gives measurable improvements to Edward Randy, Funky Jet, Super Shanghai, Double Wings and possibly improvements to Rohga and Wizard Fire too.

This kind of work is very important.  Simply having something in debuggable code form on the PC is a valuable resource because there's no better example when you want to port something or write your own emulator than having a working copy.  10 lines of code can speak what it takes 20 pages of technical documents to say with absolute assurance that the code works because you can see it in action.  This is the service Mamedev are providing, for free.

I've said before, for 15 years work on MAME I haven't taken a penny, that's the way it should be.  I do this as somebody interested in our past, and ensuring those who need to access it still can do, and hopefully will always be able to do.

I don't especially care what people do to troll me / the project because I know without a doubt that in 30 years from now, regardless of what insane copyright laws we have by then, people will be saying "thank f**k somebody cared" when it comes to the work we're putting in today.

[ark_ader]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much.  I spoke to an arcade owner last week about why there was so few video games being placed on the floor.  He had a HOTD, but doesn't take much cash due to lack of interest.  Maybe it was the consoles that killed it off, or maybe mobile phone games.  It doesn't help the operator much.

It nice to have a hobby that is so beneficial to so many people.   

[Rick]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

[Le Chuck]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you. 

[Monkeyvoodoo]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

So it's not just me then.

[yotsuya]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you.

***Well-deserved slow 80s clap***

[Wade007]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

I fully agree with this. A huge "Thank you" to Haze and all the other MAME developers!! Long live MAME and Haze!!

[dgame]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much.  I spoke to an arcade owner last week about why there was so few video games being placed on the floor.  He had a HOTD, but doesn't take much cash due to lack of interest.  Maybe it was the consoles that killed it off, or maybe mobile phone games.  It doesn't help the operator much.

It nice to have a hobby that is so beneficial to so many people.   

[ark_ader]

Sticks and stones.  My response was 100% honest and accurate.

Like it or not.  Besides there are more mame coders out there you should be grateful for.   

But it is nice to think Haze has carried the mamedevs all these years.....Not!

Lets put this into some real world perspective.

  This kind of work is very important.  Simply having something in debuggable code form on the PC is a valuable resource because there's no better example when you want to port something or write your own emulator than having a working copy.  10 lines of code can speak what it takes 20 pages of technical documents to say with absolute assurance that the code works because you can see it in action.  This is the service Mamedev are providing, for free.

On Haze's site is a game from 1999 called puzzli 2.  Now I know all about saving game hardware of 35 years ago being so very important, and rightly so.  But a game that is 14 years old?  Has contacts been made to the copyright holder who might be sitting on this IP with the hope to making some money from the exploits of the mamedevs?

Can someone please tell me the latest file size of the current mame distribution?  As when I was looking for more information on this game, the rom was available also.  Since Mamedevs are concentrating on gambling machines now.  Is it safe to surmise that IGT code is fair game (pun intended)?  How far is this project going to go, and what civil boundaries are being observed?

Is there not a code of conduct within the mamedev core?

  Even if the details were on file somewhere Data East as they were back then simply don't exist, the various rights snapped up by random companies with no understanding of the hardware or left in limbo.     

And you know this for certain?  Who's rights? The IP is freely being distributed, the protections cracked by.....?

Research:
  Link

[ark_ader]

Read this:
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/njtip/vol2/iss2/3/

Very interesting and supports both viewpoints in this and another thread.

This is more towards Haze's view which is important to provide impartial references:
link   

[jdbailey1206]

Seems like this forum has been prickly lately.   

So it's not just me then.

Its not.  It's really not.

And to answer opt2not's question the thread started off with an innocent enough of a question.  It can be found here.

[WindDrake]

I don't think it will take 30 years for someone to appreciate your work.  I'm sure there is great euphoria amongst the Chinese developers of those x in 1 boards you hate so much. 

What a spiteful and mean spirited thing to say.  It's purposefully twisting the knife.  What the hell have you done for the community to earn you the wasta to be such a --cream-filled twinkie-- and expect anyone to take you seriously, put up with it, or just let you walk all over them?  How about you give something back - other than lip.  Haze sure as hell has, and that goes a long way in my book.  You can argue all you want but childish ---P&R denizen--- digs like that only lessen the already low opinion everyone has for you.

+1. I've been around this forum a long time now, and this is probably some of the meanest, spiteful crap to come outta' someone here in a long time.

[jennifer]

    Ok... Now I just dont understand you Ark, In the original thread your talking about wiping your fingerprints off a dvd, then taping it in the cab (Before donating it) This just kinda says you know it was wrong, yet here like 3 threads later your dumping on the devs, and the whole concept of Mame. So what exactly is your point?

[ark_ader]

My point is that you can freely give roms away that are on the Mame.Net website, including all the bootlegs out there.

The gloves and blank DVD is a joke, as we were having a merry old time helping the OP out, giving suggestions like Xarcade discs, and PC games.

My mistake was to introduce the possibility that you can use a 60n1 in an arcade cabinet at home, as long as you do not use it for commercial purposes.  Haze takes exception to this as he hates those who steal his (I would be upset too) and many others freely given time to promote a commercial turnkey solution which isn't fair to the copyright owners. ( hypocrisy) 

I agree with him totally, but his methods show a contradiction as the Mamedevs incorporated one of these Xn1 boards into their collective, which somehow justifies the illegal device's existence.  Confused yet? 

So....when we mentioned the magic word 60n1 Haze's RSS bat alarm rang and he waded in to our conversation threatening to bang our heads and call us all morons for even thinking about 60n1 boards.  From that point on he became my target of questions relating to mamedev rom dumping and distribution.  Which he is silent about yet calls me a troll for asking those rather difficult questions.  In short Haze feeds the fire of his own discontent through his own actions, and it is our fault for discussing it in some way.      

    Ok... Now I just dont understand you Ark, In the original thread your talking about wiping your fingerprints off a dvd, then taping it in the cab (Before donating it) This just kinda says you know it was wrong, yet here like 3 threads later your dumping on the devs, and the whole concept of Mame. So what exactly is your point?

[UFO]

Well, I love the work you've done, Haze. I sincerely appreciate everything, and recognize that it must be hard to want to continue working on the insurmountable project that is MAME, when constantly bombarded with negatively charged posts.

Thank you very much for all you've done, and for what you continue to do.

+1 

[DGP]

ark_ader,

You make valid points here and there, however the manner in which you pointed them out was somewhat rude (which you admitted... so let's all move along ).

 

While we all can (and do) appreciate the years of work that has gone into M.A.M.E. it is pretty obvious that those responsible have to walk around on egg shells since they are the ones that enabled the rest of us (pay attention to that word as that is key here from a legal perspective).

If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, which from a legal perspective they had no right to create to begin with and they know it (regardless of their stance that it is not the purpose of M.A.M.E. to actually play the games but instead to emulate them as accurately as possible, this obviously makes no difference).

I am not taking sides here as it is a subject with many questionable aspects, all of which can be debated, but in the end it's all a legal cluster  .
 
Jason

[Le Chuck]

Ya know, in the Army we have this creature called a Barracks Lawyer.  He's not at all elusive and is likely to be found "telling it like it is" or "letting everyone know what's really up".  Often times his advice is well meaning and grounded in some fictional notion of the way things should be according to him rather than the way they are.  It is of note that this person is never a lawyer, law maker, judge, or in a position to directly influence or accurately interpret statements from any of those aforementioned legal professionals. 

Now we all tend from time to time to feel the urge to tell it like it is and if you've never had your turn as the Barracks Lawyer you're either due, or are currently that creature and unaware of the fact.  I personally like the Barracks Lawyer.  I find his banter and consternation at others amusing.  My favorite interactions are when I'm administering UCMJ to the Barracks Lawyer and watching him get the boo-boo face.  This is; however, often a temporary set back for the breed as there is no shortage of folks waiting to fill his shoes.

Here on the forums there seems to be an abundance of Barracks Lawyers and a marked lack of his natural enemy - the Authorities.  Like any ecosystem this imbalance is responsible for the over population and I soon fear a shortage of the Barracks Lawyers'  food source, people willing to entertain the BL's ramblings, may lead to massive die offs until such time as equilibrium is reestablished and the cycle begins again.

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner. 

[Maximus]

WELL I THINK AMERICANS ARE ALL STUPID!!!



Carry on.

[DGP]

Ya know, in the Army we have this creature called a Barracks Lawyer.  He's not at all elusive and is likely to be found "telling it like it is" or "letting everyone know what's really up".  Often times his advice is well meaning and grounded in some fictional notion of the way things should be according to him rather than the way they are.  It is of note that this person is never a lawyer, law maker, judge, or in a position to directly influence or accurately interpret statements from any of those aforementioned legal professionals. 

Now we all tend from time to time to feel the urge to tell it like it is and if you've never had your turn as the Barracks Lawyer you're either due, or are currently that creature and unaware of the fact.  I personally like the Barracks Lawyer.  I find his banter and consternation at others amusing.  My favorite interactions are when I'm administering UCMJ to the Barracks Lawyer and watching him get the boo-boo face.  This is; however, often a temporary set back for the breed as there is no shortage of folks waiting to fill his shoes.

Here on the forums there seems to be an abundance of Barracks Lawyers and a marked lack of his natural enemy - the Authorities.  Like any ecosystem this imbalance is responsible for the over population and I soon fear a shortage of the Barracks Lawyers'  food source, people willing to entertain the BL's ramblings, may lead to massive die offs until such time as equilibrium is reestablished and the cycle begins again.

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner.

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

Aside from that, if the actual property holders were as concerned as everyone else appears to be none of us would be here discussing it on a public forum.

Has there been even a single case of any legal action taken against M.A.M.E. (other than Atari doing some ruffling I am not aware of anything else)?

*Oh and I want to be clear that I am not advocating what ark_ader was trying to accomplish, I am not taking sides here, just friendly banter.

 

[Monkeyvoodoo]

But wait...

What is that lurking behind the bushes?  It seems as though the Authorities have not been completely absent and are merely lying in wait for their prey to stray too far from the pack.  Once separated from the herd the Barracks Lawyer is vulnerable, his complaining and hollering fall on deaf ears, the Authorities strike with ruthless abandon.     

The alpha predator is set, his haunches quiver as he coils for the pounce.  Let us watch and see if our Barracks Lawyer strays too afar and becomes dinner.

[Haze]

I still don't see how anybody can compare what Mamedev are doing for free (which I consider noble cause) to people who are taking advantage of that for personal gain.

The two are worlds apart, the things we do are with a long term vision, for the good of everybody.  We don't want a situation like the BBC has now where old episodes of shows like Doctor Who can't be found anywhere, or are on completely inaccessible media and it's a miracle if they show up at all.

To be honest we already face that, for things like the recently discovered Desert Dan there was no record of it at all anywhere until it was found, Planet Probe existed only in the mind of somebody who remembered a few gameplay elements and the high score music.  You can talk about games from 1999, but in gaming terms that was an eternity ago, we didn't even know that game existed until it turned up and in the age of global information that should tell you plenty.

The point is MAME remains neutral, we do what we do for the reasons we do it, we believe this has a value.  We believe that it's better to do this while we can than attempt to pick at scraps of information 20 years down the line because somebody has idealistic views of what we should be looking at.  MAME is a history book, MAME is a resource

You can't possibly compare this to people making bootleg boards in order to rip people off and make a quick profit, it's an absurd argument hence why I can't be bothered arguing when that is the context.

[DGP]

Haze,

On your recent point I would agree regarding profiting from it is a poor choice without legal permission from the property holders.

But as I said previously this entire process is a legal cluster , and to that I am sure you would agree..?

 

[Le Chuck]

Le Chuck's Wild America

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

It wasn't, but since you put it out there...

Are you a lawyer or just related to some?  If your dad was a doctor would you be licensed to practice medicine?  What about if your wife was a Realtor^tm would you be selling houses on behalf of clients?  I'm a Soldier, my wife is married to a Soldier.  I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness.  Just as I generally try not to give advice on international mergers and litigation even though my dad practiced for 45 years.  He's the lawyer, not me.   I tread on my own accomplishments. 

[DGP]

Le Chuck's Wild America

You would be making a very misguided assumption if this was directed at me as I unfortunately have an entire family involved in the legal system, one of which specializes in copyright/patent law. 

It wasn't, but since you put it out there...

Are you a lawyer or just related to some?  If your dad was a doctor would you be licensed to practice medicine?  What about if your wife was a Realtor^tm would you be selling houses on behalf of clients?  I'm a Soldier, my wife is married to a Soldier.  I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness.  Just as I generally try not to give advice on international mergers and litigation even though my dad practiced for 45 years.  He's the lawyer, not me.   I tread on my own accomplishments.

I totally agree!

I am not practicing, the family member that I was talking about (copyright/patent) did read the thread(s) after I sent him the links to get his input and that was basically his response (in fewer words). He stated if the property holders so much as blinked that this would be an instant win for them (which I think we all know would be the obvious outcome).

 

[jennifer]

   Ark, That does clear up a few things for me... So basicly then using the 60-1 for an auction is ok, it does happen and  it would be like buying a fake Rolex, And true it happens like all the time, But its not a good idea because It has the potential to give Mame, and Devs a black eye (IE: selling copyrighted games with Mame all over it.)...Personally I believe wholeheartedly in what people like Haze do, And have followed it from the very concept, Although I have found myself very confused and chagrined at the poor work of the on some of the documentations, Effectively turning me away shaking my head... Again, IMO.

[McHale]

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

[mcseforsale]

As I've stated a thousand times (OK, maybe 5), it would be ideal if all of the IP owners would offer the ROMS for a set, small price.  Say $.25 for individual use and $2.00 for commercial.  All of the rom hustling sites are ALREADY making money on these ROMs indirectly since they're generating ad revenue by simply hosting them, so that's already profiting on the IP, whether indirectly or not.

I, for one, wouldn't mind at all licensing all my ROMS at a respectable price since the only time I use quarters in my arcade is to show off that the coin door works.  And even then, I generally unlock it and take that same quarter back out when I'm broke and need to turn in my change at the grocery store. 

So, for the small amount of ROMS that I have, I would only be paying about $50.  Paltry and easily workable into a cab project.

C'mon MAME guys, open up your rolodexes and get in touch with the OG developers and let's make this happen.  Hell, we got Space Ace and the other LD games this way!

AJ

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

[Haze]

We emulate stuff, the technical side.  As I mentioned earlier I think it's important that we stay neutral in that, work with what is presented to us with no level of bias.

Others can chase ghosts if they want.

Last place I was working a company contacted us saying they wanted to do a pack with some of their games in.  The paper trail was amusing, turns out they'd auctions off the rights to the game years ago as part of some other deal to a company who made washing machines, tracking back that far they then found said company had likely sold it off as part of another bulk deal to a company who now operate fast food restaurants, but hadn't got any actual paperwork to say either way.  In the end the whole idea was abandoned.

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

I'd say if anything Daphne was a good example of why such methods should be avoided, instead of an emulator they've got a psuedo-emulator tailored to the desires of certain copyright holders locked to specific platforms requiring special DRM encumbered files and the project is basically locked out of actually progressing or doing anything *properly* as a result.  Maybe that is of no concern to you, but such a model is not a long term solution to anything.  With MAME instead we just get on with things, and provide a resource to those who need it.

[mcseforsale]

As for Daphne, that's a bit different.  The range of games for that particular platform were doomed from the onset because of their difficulty in programming and hardware maintenance.  Laser discs sucked then and do now.  However, it was a novel attempt at bringing them back and I posit that the way they did it was the only way to emulate them, copyright them and mass market them short of offering a gigantic laser disc player and some 10" discs.

As for MAME and throttling the output of ROMs with some phoney EULA, I understand the legal risk it is that the devs' hobby is potentially risky.  ROMs are being burned.  Someone is supplying the boards.  I don't believe that it's the IP owners that are presenting you with these boards, nor do I think unravelling the ownership knot would be productive in any way.

I think that by developing MAME (and a hearty THANK YOU to all the devs) started out as a noble cause, I also believe that the IP owners of these ROMs either could care less, or don't even know they own the IP. 

With that said, I would think un-coupling yourselves from the burning of the ROMs, instead of throttling their use with MAME would be far more productive and could potentially allow you to capitalize on its use, rather than not allowing it to be licensed software...even for a pittance. 

That way, you could provide the tools to burn ROMS, develop MAME any way y'all see fit, profit from it's sale (to corps) and make the burning process the legal issue that the end user has to deal with.

Just a thought.

AJ

We emulate stuff, the technical side.  As I mentioned earlier I think it's important that we stay neutral in that, work with what is presented to us with no level of bias.

Others can chase ghosts if they want.

Last place I was working a company contacted us saying they wanted to do a pack with some of their games in.  The paper trail was amusing, turns out they'd auctions off the rights to the game years ago as part of some other deal to a company who made washing machines, tracking back that far they then found said company had likely sold it off as part of another bulk deal to a company who now operate fast food restaurants, but hadn't got any actual paperwork to say either way.  In the end the whole idea was abandoned.

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

I'd say if anything Daphne was a good example of why such methods should be avoided, instead of an emulator they've got a psuedo-emulator tailored to the desires of certain copyright holders locked to specific platforms requiring special DRM encumbered files and the project is basically locked out of actually progressing or doing anything *properly* as a result.  Maybe that is of no concern to you, but such a model is not a long term solution to anything.  With MAME instead we just get on with things, and provide a resource to those who need it.

[Haze]

Well there is already a disconnection between the dumping / distribution of ROMs and the work done on MAME.

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

As I've said, we provide the technical service, the technical software, the emulator.  We figure things out, we present what we find out to the world to better the knowledge of the world.  We call that creation MAME.

[mcseforsale]

Then you hide behind licensing.  I'm not trying to be a dick, but creating MAME and offering a license for personal use, then shunning its use in a cab that get sold without ROMs is like Linux was 10 years ago. 

It's bad policy.  MAME is an amazing bit of software, if you really analyze it.  If the dumping of ROMs can be de-coupled from your work, why then don't you let people license it for sale on built cabs?  It makes no sense.  And it seems a bit out of place in today's market.  For the 20 people that have asked me to build them a cab, I know only one that would actually pay for it.  I wouldn't mind figuring in a MAME license in the build estimate, writing an interface to help them put the ROMs in the correct place, pulling the pin and lobbing it over the wall.

AJ

Well there is already a disconnection between the dumping of ROMs and the work done on MAME.

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

As I've said, we provide the technical service, the technical software, the emulator.  We figure things out, we present what we find out to the world to better the knowledge of the world.  We call that creation MAME.

[Haze]

because MAME isn't meant to replace such things and using the proper hardware.

we provide a reference, we stay neutral, we stay independent.

nobody can make a MAME system then try to say that we authorized it when they don't bother to license things properly.

there are simply absolutely no benefits to allowing commercial use, and if you say code contributions back then I can't agree, most commercial software and packs is simply hacked for specific targets and in ways to make it more appealing rather than authentically emulated.

we've been doing this for almost 17 years, outlived basically everything else, seen drastic changes in the way things get done (MAME *sets* the bar for the quality of ports these days) and made a real difference.  I'd say our approach worked just fine in that sense.

If MAME becomes a legal option for companies to use directly then every company will use it directly, for the end user that is bad, everything just becomes a clone of MAME, has the same bugs as MAME, the same performance as MAME etc.  The poor quality products out there are typically the ones that do already disregard our license and rip the code directly because they're hacked together by people who don't have the first clue what they're doing with our code.  The good quality ones are the ones where people have taken the care and attention,  used our findings but produced their own product, better optimized and more suitable for the environments they target.  At the end of the day if we approve MAME for commercial use no company is going to fund creation of anything beyond the bare minimum of 'use MAME' and that is bad for you.

Sure, doing something like that would officially put our names in lights, but we're not doing this for fame or fortune.


This conversation has been had before, I'm not going to budge on the issue.

[DGP]

Right or wrong, or  , I have nothing but respect for what you do Haze.

Please allow me to say... Thank You.

 
Jason

[ark_ader]

I will do my upmost not to sound rude or dismissive of your skills and accomplishments Haze, but you have answered one of my questions, and unfortunately created two more.

Thanks Le Chuck for the Barracks Lawyer remark.  You are absolutely spot on there.

Lets review some quotes:

The Dumping Union are a separate entity and a lot of what I work with is from individual contributors too, providing a service to them by emulating what they have.

It doesn't sound like that on this page.  It sounds like you got the dump by TDU and was given it from another contributor, which answers one of my important questions.  Mame roms are distributed internally, not from a controlled repository.  It does sound rather blatant, when it comes to securing copyright material.  Where does this dump data go afterwards?   You applaud the Daphne Devs for locking their content (that is still commercially viable) but there is no locking mechanisms in Mame?  Why?

This isn't the role of Mamedev, nothing would get done and trying to work within such constraints would be reckless and irresponsible when it comes to actually caring about the past and actually ensuring nothing becomes inaccessible.

Yes this is very accurate of Haze.  Look at this screen shot from his site:



This game is dated 1998, not 1980 or 1984 when the video game industry imploded.  No this is from a Korean company who is trying to make money on a fledgling arcade market.  What does the copyright notice say?  Is it heeded? Is it still valid?  Contacted any Owners?

You can't possibly compare this to people making bootleg boards in order to rip people off and make a quick profit, it's an absurd argument hence why I can't be bothered arguing when that is the context.

OK yet you have support in Mame for the bootlegs of the day.  There is some issues there.  But Mame did support a Xn1 board.  Why?  If the clan is so against the notion?

I totally agree!

I am not practising, the family member that I was talking about (copyright/patent) did read the thread(s) after I sent him the links to get his input and that was basically his response (in fewer words). He stated if the property holders so much as blinked that this would be an instant win for them (which I think we all know would be the obvious outcome).

 

Well there is no real money in Mame, and taking it out would be a PR disaster.  It would stop you guys going rampant with assimilating new games that are not in danger of being lost to the ether.  Mamedevs would be restricted to the existing collection of games.  The work of Mamedevs was not created from day one.  Work from the other emulators of the day was included into Mame, so you cannot pat yourself on the back for all the accomplishment.  We all remember Sparcade? 

I have a busy day ahead of me so I will leave you with this new console game due out on one of the most successful video games of all time.  I do believe Disney holds the character copyright, as does Hasbro for the original arcade game.




Its dire.


But if the original 1980 game was available to purchase, would anyone buy it? 
Yes I know about the other pacman related games.  I'm taking about the original game for the younger generation that revenue could be made from.

[jdbailey1206]

...If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, ....

I agree to this.  Though I would like MAME more to Napster.  Both programs respectively by themselves cause on harm.  But once you put ROMS or songs in them and utilize them with their intended use then you start to run into legal problems.  The funny thing is those who get the legal action brought on them is not the end user who is using the program but the person who actually created it.  When it should be the other way around.  Those who are bringing legal action don't realize that this beast is like the Hydra.  Cut off it's head and two more appear. 

The whole reason I believe no legal action has been taken is because it's not worth the hassle.  By the time you bring action against those who are using ROMS the cost begins to outway the benefits.  In the end the ROMS that are being used just aren't worth it.  That is why you always hear about people getting nuked for movie or music piracy.  Those will retain there value.  Unfortunately games do not. 

As for the 60 in 1's I did not realize that they were being put out by those over seas who had no part of creating the games.  But again unfortunately there is no real international law that would help in stopping the distribution of those boards to the United States. 

That being said I believe that discussions like these should not be hallmarked as something bad for the community.  They can sometimes get heated but that is a debate.  There is a saying that everyone can learn something new everyday.  And that is what I feel these dicussions can do.  Yes they sometimes get winded but if some form of valuable information is taken away from it all the better.  I believe someone said earlier in the discussion that you can lead a horse to a library but you can't make him read.  And  thats the truth.  I don't think anyone should get mad at the opposition but be glad that you may have taught something to someone. 


And to Monkeyvoodoo I believe Le Chuck was going for something more like this. But somehow Morgan Freeman always wins over everybody.   

Also since you were brought up Le Chuck sometimes it's okay to wear a dust mask or sand where there is plenty of ventilation.  Laying off the bottle might be a good thing too.   

In the end I hope that Robedias27 finds an avenue he can go down to solve his problem.  Because this shouldn't be about who in the end is right or wrong but it should be about the fact that he donated to a worthy cause and maybe made someones day a little brighter and showed them how it used to be with games.  Because in the end that is why we are all here.  To keep the memories alive.



Oh crap.  Can someone recommend a good lawyer?  I feel NBC coming after me for using that one.   

[jdbailey1206]

...I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness....

Le Chuck?  How do you think kids are made?  Sex joke.

 

[Le Chuck]

...I would generally advise against her providing tactical advice on, say, mounted operations in urban terrain under the cover of darkness....

Le Chuck?  How do you think kids are made?  Sex joke.

 

Probably by a bunch of privates in a poorly ventilated workspace under austere conditions.  The government issues them to me just like everything else - doi

They're an accountable item, we have inspections and everything.   

[Haze]

blah blah blah

Like I said I consider your posts / questions trolling and won't respond to them, so give it up.  There is no worth in answering you questions, and once again you're dragging things off-topic. 

I'm here to help educate others (and I feel I'm doing a decent job of that) not feed the troll.

Most of what you say has already been answered anyway, the words neutral, independent, unbiased, and document are the ones you're looking for.

[Haze]

...If the were to hit the fan here (legally) then the devs and distributors are the first target and not the millions that are using what they have created, ....

I agree to this.  Though I would like MAME more to Napster.  Both programs respectively by themselves cause on harm.  But once you put ROMS or songs in them and utilize them with their intended use then you start to run into legal problems.  The funny thing is those who get the legal action brought on them is not the end user who is using the program but the person who actually created it.  When it should be the other way around.  Those who are bringing legal action don't realize that this beast is like the Hydra.  Cut off it's head and two more appear. 

MAME doesn't have built-in file sharing, it's closer to a combination of WinAmp and Wikipedia than Napster.  It has plenty of people using it for good, and undisputed value.

The software is produced with completely different intentions, and has completely different long-term value, so I wouldn't say it is comparable at all.

Something like Napster has no purpose, no value, to the industry.  It's only function was to share MP3 files by connecting users.  It's completely replaceable, and if f you kill it then nothing of value is lost.

MAME on the other hand has immense value, it tells you like an encyclopaedia many things about our history, the good, the bad the ugly. It's a fantastic document and if you kill that you're basically burning history books because you don't like what is contained within them.

[ark_ader]

blah blah blah

Like I said I consider your posts / questions trolling and won't respond to them, so give it up.  There is no worth in answering you questions, and once again you're dragging things off-topic. 

I'm here to help educate others (and I feel I'm doing a decent job of that) not feed the troll.

Most of what you say has already been answered anyway, the words neutral, independent, unbiased, and document are the ones you're looking for.

I agree with the education part totally.

Let us see what I found on my lunch:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/07/04/ouya-super-gnes-emulator_n_3545805.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_301_Report

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/16/the-legality-of-emulation-part-1-readers-feature-3479741/

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/17/the-legality-of-emulation-part-2-readers-feature-3480905/

http://www.jenkins.eu/articles-general/reverse-engineering.asp

http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/commentary/chn95t1.htm

You will like this one Haze.

Keep quiet Haze and maybe it will all go away.

There again I hear Nintendo(h) is changing policies and looking at ways to improve profits for 2014. 

I'm amazed this thread went on this long and kind of amazed these discussions still take place.

Let's use FHMC Q*bert as an example.  There's only ONE person I'm aware of who has the LEGAL right to possess the ROMS - Warren Davis.  Not a SINGLE person here owned the original boards or ROMS.  The reason we have them is because he wanted others to enjoy a game that nobody would have a chance to play if he didn't release them.  He was fully aware of MAME and gave them to the MAME team so MAME users could enjoy it.  The nice side benefit is, if you have an original Q*Bert, you can burn 'em and throw 'em in.  He didn't do it for profit.  He did it to support the MAME cause - preservation. I believe a large number of prototypes became available the same way.

That being said, the ROMS are *NOT* in the public domain.  They are *STILL* under copyright protection.  And selling them is not only illegal, it's a HUGE knife in the back to a really cool programmer who probably could have made a ton of money selling his cab with the original ROMS.  Had he not released them to the MAME team, his original FHMC Q*Bert cab would be MORE rare than Marble Man 2 and probably more desirable.  But because he released them, anybody can burn the ROMS and make a FHMC cab. 

Some programmers are like Mr. Davis and enjoy sharing with fans (the free ROMS on the MAME site are a great example).  Others (Sega comes to mind) are always thinking about future sales so they aren't keen to lose potential future sales by having arcade games out there that they made no money on.  Personally, I can tell you what it's like to release something for free that was VERY popular only to have others sell it for profit - it sucks.  It sucks a lot.  Nothing will kill the MAME project faster than people selling ROMS or selling MAME cabs and "giving" the ROMS for free.  Believe it or not, I know a number of people who only have roms in their MAME cab for the games they legally own.  While it would be foolish to believe everybody is that honest/legal, it would be better for the project if more people were or at least appeared to be.

Really?  I just watched Wreck it Ralph.  I didn't see his name in the credits....  On the contrary selling/sharing roms is fuelling the home arcade industry.  Prior to Mame what was Happs margin looking like?

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

Except Pong.

[Haze]

You continue to troll, but the truth is simple, we're still here.  MAME isn't some underground entity that is hard to find, nor have project co-ordinators been some secret impossible to find warez group leaders hiding entirely behind some anonymous pseudonym.  Like I said, I wonder why saint puts up with you here.  It would appear the whole world, except for you, sees the true value of what we do.

[Sjaak]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

[jdbailey1206]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

[Haze]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

The only high profile cases against emulation developed by such techniques have been lost by those pursuing them.  I don't anticipate this changing no matter what fantasy world the trolls here want to live in.

Like I said, the guy has proven over and over again that he is a pure troll, this is the internet, you pull arguments from whatever 2-bit newspapers you want to support any argument you're trying to make, it doesn't make you big or clever, it just makes you an ass, as saint has said himself.  In 17 years the closest Mamedev have come to any actual legal issue is the case with David Foley and the trademark and that would have been started by us had it needed to go that far.
 

[mcseforsale]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

[Sjaak]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

That's what I thought.

I don't see the legal issues with emulating hardware (from a common sense point of view).

In fact, in my line of work we sometimes use commercial terminal emulation software on windows to access legacy systems because nobody has a working VT-100 terminal anymore. This software emulates all kinds of stone age terminals.

This emulation software is used by hospitals, airlines, etc. to access legacy systems, which would otherwise become unusable.

[Haze]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

SW clears a large region of memory address spaces, it's probably ram.
SW writes what appears to be a 32x32 grid of data there, it's probably a tilemap
SW writes a short list of variable length 4-byte entries, it's probably a sprite
SW polls an address, it's probably some kind of io port
SW writes an address with single bits alternating / flipping, some kind of ouput
SW does the same but polls a read address between writes, could be some kind of serial port / eeprom

etc.

obviously it's a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.  we don't actually have to know what the purpose of every bit of code in the software is, nor understand any of the internal game logic, we just have to understand the interactions it is attempting to make with the hardware and what they mean, then implement the emulation of what is there in code.

this of course assumes you already have a working CPU core etc. otherwise you've got a lot more work to do.  luckily one of the many valuable resources contained within MAME is a vast library of well tested CPU cores.

[jdbailey1206]

No Sjaak.  You're wrong.  It emulates the hardware.  Not the game....

That's what I thought.

I don't see the legal issues with emulating hardware (from a common sense point of view).

In fact, in my line of work we sometimes use commercial terminal emulation software on windows to access legacy systems because nobody has a working VT-100 terminal anymore. This software emulates all kinds of stone age terminals.

This emulation software is used by hospitals, airlines, etc. to access legacy systems, which would otherwise become unusable.

Sjaak?  Or do you go by your real name...Miles Dyson!?!

So its your fault for the T-101!  How could you release such a monstrous evil on to the world?     Oh...wait.  VT-100.  Nevermind. 

[Sjaak]

So its your fault for the T-101!  How could you release such a monstrous evil on to the world?     Oh...wait.  VT-100.  Nevermind.

The VT-100 Terminator emulation software is still in beta, but will be released soon. 

[ark_ader]

You will like this one Haze.

I may have this all wrong, but isn't that article about reverse enigneering a game (or in this case a part of a game).

I always thought that Mame emulates hardware (like for example the Z80 processor) and not the actual games.

 We figure out the hardware often by looking at the access patterns of the software trying to use that hardware.  What we ship emulates the hardware.

this part fascinates me ^^

SW clears a large region of memory address spaces, it's probably ram.
SW writes what appears to be a 32x32 grid of data there, it's probably a tilemap
SW writes a short list of variable length 4-byte entries, it's probably a sprite
SW polls an address, it's probably some kind of io port
SW writes an address with single bits alternating / flipping, some kind of ouput
SW does the same but polls a read address between writes, could be some kind of serial port / eeprom

etc.

obviously it's a little more complex than that, but you get the idea.  we don't actually have to know what the purpose of every bit of code in the software is, nor understand any of the internal game logic, we just have to understand the interactions it is attempting to make with the hardware and what they mean, then implement the emulation of what is there in code.

this of course assumes you already have a working CPU core etc. otherwise you've got a lot more work to do.  luckily one of the many valuable resources contained within MAME is a vast library of well tested CPU cores.

The SW hooks. 

OK so why is there protections in the ROM?  Is it deliberate act to slow people down or stop them copying their code?  What about hardware like the main boards, Mame is emulating them too?

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.  Most of the copyright holders do not care, and if they did well it would stop your party pretty quickly.  I am focusing these recent articles on your new baby.  This Universal Mame.  Sorry for not connecting the dots for you.

The gang is not satisfied with a certain era of forgotten gaming, but now concentrating on recent consoles. 

I was having a chat with a colleague about this as he likes classic gaming, and feels that there should be an amnesty on all copyright violations involving emulation.  Which sounds great in theory.

We just have one small problem though.  It would also justify your Chinese pals who create these Xn1 boards.  That shouldn't ever happen.  At least Mame shows the copyright holders name.  Besides anyone can (and do) use mame for commercial purposes.  Just find a PC and fire up a rom and stick it in a cabinet (if they own the main board or game on a different platform, can justify it) as a backup.  That is the crux of the whole argument.  Mame in principal should not allow the games to be played, it is a nice side effect.....

The project is supposed to be about documenting.  Where are these documents?  The schematics of the individual game hardware for people to share and learn?  Or help people with IP ownership to maybe use your valued help (as you have provided in earlier posts) to create a anniversary cabinet with a custom board set or fix an old one?

We can talk about this all year long, but the biggest problem is not the act, but the distribution of the protected items on the internet.  With this prism project in the papers recently, it wouldn't be that hard finding the offenders, well the ISP will be responsible as they are the providers essentially.

Not answering my questions?  I'm not bothered.  Your silence works better for me.

The problem with Haze, that he will give up his secrets.  Just keep him in conversation long enough.   


::::

Sjaak:

Do you have a link for this VT100 emulator? Pricing for volume licensing too.

Thanks

[Vigo]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

[ark_ader]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

I gave that as an example.  Yes they are rare, but there is no reason for a rare software to become free.  Windows 2.0 is rare, it is not free.  Windows NT4 is old and retired but is it free to download off Microsoft's site?  Windows 3.0?   You have to source it and buy it.  That link I gave shows that game board for sale on ebay, and there is a dedicated cabinet too.  Now those sellers will be out of pocket due to Haze's poking around.  Is that fair?  There are many sides to this coin.  Plenty of them are lurking in this forum.

I admire those with arcades in their basements as they represent the true collector.  Does anyone one know what a supergun is?

[Haze]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

Yep, like I said, guy is living in some bubble fantasy land.

He keeps asking questions that have already been answered, again, we work on things in an unbiased and impartial way.

We aim to provide enough information about how things work that somebody could write their own software to run on the hardware we've documented, as new limits of hardware get discovered they get implemented, that is documented in the code we release.  The fact he can't see (read, chooses not to see) this tells you plenty.  An obsession with schematics? For anything newer than Pong they're not going to tell you a great deal about how things work if you want to write software for the board.

I'm starting to think he *is* driverman, just with a different proxy / vpn.  His approach is identical, subjects very similar, trolling a carbon copy, only differing in the style of writing.

He seems to continue to want to draw some type of conclusion that MAME existing justifies xx-in-1 boards somehow (another driverman topic..) or that by MAME emulating them it justifies them (guess what, another driverman topic)  It will remain a completely absurd argument because MAME is a project of great historical, cultural and technical value.  A company selling bootleg boards is not.

[ark_ader]

Let us cut to the chase.  I'm all for preservation and it is needed for all those arcade games from 1970-1985.

You keep bringing up the fact that you think that games from 1998 or so should not be included because they are too new. What measure are you exactly using to determine what is acceptable to preserve and what is not? As far as I can tell, many of these games are still quite often obscure and still live with the threat of being lost in the near future. I think you are not looking at the big picture, here. Also, can you say for certain what the climate will be like in 10 years?

From haze's blog, the latest find is a 94 game called Cassanova. I never heard of it, and it seems like it is a completely obscure title. From your measure of 1985 as the latest current acceptable date, (28 years), The MameDev team would have to wait until the year 2022 to procure and preserve this title. Can you say for certain this title will be available to find 10 years from now? If you can make a strong case that these titles are all living a safe, unthreatened existance, I might agree with you, but all the games he has been covering on his blog recently are pretty darn old or rare sounding to me.

Yep, like I said, guy is living in some bubble fantasy land.

He keeps asking questions that have already been answered, again, we work on things in an unbiased and impartial way.

We aim to provide enough information about how things work that somebody could write their own software to run on the hardware we've documented, as new limits of hardware get discovered they get implemented, that is documented in the code we release.  The fact he can't see (read, chooses not to see) this tells you plenty.  An obsession with schematics? For anything newer than Pong they're not going to tell you a great deal about how things work if you want to write software for the board.

I'm starting to think he *is* driverman, just with a different proxy / vpn.  His approach is identical, subjects very similar, trolling a carbon copy, only differing in the style of writing.

He seems to continue to want to draw some type of conclusion that MAME existing justifies xx-in-1 boards somehow (another driverman topic..) or that by MAME emulating them it justifies them (guess what, another driverman topic)  It will remain a completely absurd argument because MAME is a project of great historical, cultural and technical value.  A company selling bootleg boards is not.

For someone who is ignoring me, you are doing a pretty good job.     You need to remind everyone here why you were ousted out of your coordinator position.   

Your spin is amazing sir.   

You need one of these when a suit give you a C&D:





p.s. I mean that in a nice and kind way.

[Haze]

Back to trolling eh? (did you ever stop?) not even with the correct facts.  I have never been ousted from the co-ordinator position.  I handed the project to Aaron to concentrate on actually emulating things because I felt that had more worth to the project.  I continue to feel that way (I fail to see how things like the recent addition of a web-server in MAME so that you can connect to MAME via a browser and see what is running / control certain aspects of it remotely has any value at all)

I was removed from the team at one point because a certain dev got pissy about having their code reverted, when their code was wrong, but now I think a fair number of people have come to realise I was correct in my actions, but that's all internal politics.  If you want to know who has continued to contribute throughout and actually helped improve the emulation significantly over the last few years then look no further.

That's all anicent history too, Aaron has since handed to project to Angelo so that he too could concentrate on other things, and Angelo subsequently handed it to Micko, the MESS co-ordinator for similar reasons, and because having two heads of what was basically the same project didn't really make sense.

I continue to have some differences of opinion on the way MAME should be heading, but remain an active member of the team, and one of the few members actually still putting a lot of work into directly improving our arcade emulation side of things (even if it probably doesn't help my cause when it comes to showing that the core and non-arcade stuff is our driving force these days)

You do make yourself look like an idiot.

Again none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand tho.

saint, please just ban this guy, trolls are not constructive or helpful members of your community here.

[ark_ader]

But they haven't handed it back to you.  Why is that exactly?

A particular web site we know of had a policy where the very mention of your name was an immediate ban


Sure sounded familiar when you rudely interrupted our thread and threatened everyone.

Darn it!

Now I have sunk to his childish methods...forgive me. 

I should know better....


Oh was there a question related to this thread somewhere?

[Haze]

But they haven't handed it back to you.  Why is that exactly?

A particular web site we know of had a policy where the very mention of your name was an immediate ban.

I'll have to dig the thread up, but can you remember that heated discussion?  It was funny in an unfunny way.

Sure sounded familiar when you rudely interrupted our thread and threatened everyone.

Darn it!

Now I have sunk to his childish methods...forgive me. 

I should know better....


Oh was there a question related to this thread somewhere?

Why would they hand it back to me? Why haven't they handed it back to Nicola? Your question is as absurd as every single other thing you say.  The current co-ordinator of Micko makes *perfect* sense because MESS is our primary project these days due to it being the one with the most relevant future and widest potential application.  There is no Mamedev anymore, it exists only as a more familiar way to express what is essentially the MESSdev team these days.

Mameworld?  The admin of a private site were man sausages, they continue to be so.  Their ban on mentioning my site did irreversible damage to MAME because it made the project look dead for those who didn't know the real source of current news was my site.  Bashing me became something of a sport, it probably still is, you continue to do it, because you know I'll fight the correct points because I don't like having people like you try to repeat the same old incorrect garbage until it sticks.  Note, there is no ban on my site being mentioned there now, there is no ban on me registering there now, I choose not to, they decided that having an in-group of people taking photos of women when they weren't looking and posting borderline porn was more important than MAME, they can live and die by that decision for all I care.  Their site, their rules.

You, like other trolls clearly get your kicks from wasting the time of others when it would be better spent elsewhere, sadly until you're banned *somebody* has to come in and correct the absurd rubbish you post before it actually causes harm.

[ark_ader]

I'm sorry Haze that bit of insight was uncalled for.

Please forgive me and let us be civil in this train wreak of a thread.   


So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

[HaRuMaN]

[Haze]

So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Alone? no.

A significant part of many goings on? Yes.

Presenting a lot of the rest of what was going on in a form easy to digest by the general public in the lack of an official WIP page, yes.

Scaring people off? Look at the number of people I've worked with to convert findings into actual emulation, evidence would suggest otherwise, people who come back again and again.  What puts people off is when they put a ton of work into researching things and then find there is little interest from devs in actually taking that further and creating something usable with it.  By showing people you value their input, and putting in the hard work + dedication to make something out of it you encourage further work.

Interestingly I have noticed it's usually the people who have only ever worked alone, on very limited scope parts of MAME who make accusations like that one.

MESS is simply becoming the primary project not because devs have been scared off, but because like I said, it has more scope, there is more to do, it's less restrictive and in many senses more enjoyable to develop for as a result.  The remaining arcade problems are hard, and while the public might not value some of the breakthroughs that have been made over the past year as much as they did 10 years ago a number of them are amazing pieces of work.  The bar to actually be able to pull these things off is forever being set higher and requiring even more time, work, dedication, and in some cases luck!  Very few people are able to give that.

[Le Chuck]

I'm sorry Haze that bit of insight was uncalled for.

Please forgive me and let us be civil in this train wreak of a thread.   


So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Civil and passive aggressive are poor bed fellows at best. 

[ark_ader]

So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Alone? no.

A significant part of many goings on? Yes.

Presenting a lot of the rest of what was going on in a form easy to digest by the general public in the lack of an official WIP page, yes.

Scaring people off? Look at the number of people I've worked with to convert findings into actual emulation, evidence would suggest otherwise, people who come back again and again.  What puts people off is when they put a ton of work into researching things and then find there is little interest from devs in actually taking that further and creating something usable with it.  By showing people you value their input, and putting in the hard work + dedication to make something out of it you encourage further work.

Interestingly I have noticed it's usually the people who have only ever worked alone, on very limited scope parts of MAME who make accusations like that one.

MESS is simply becoming the primary project not because devs have been scared off, but because like I said, it has more scope, there is more to do, it's less restrictive and in many senses more enjoyable to develop for as a result.  The remaining arcade problems are hard, and while the public might not value some of the breakthroughs that have been made over the past year as much as they did 10 years ago a number of them are amazing pieces of work.  The bar to actually be able to pull these things off is forever being set higher and requiring even more time, work, dedication, and in some cases luck!  Very few people are able to give that.

No not an accusation just a general feeling that the project was stagnating and it needed new direction, which happened quite abruptly.  Well you got what you wanted, and everyone on the project got a new totally awesome coordinator.     Did he leave to work on Windows 8 RT?

The remaining arcade problems are hard, and while the public might not value some of the breakthroughs that have been made over the past year as much as they did 10 years ago a number of them are amazing pieces of work.

  But most of it was code from other projects like Raine and Sparcade and that other one (retrocade?).  Well basically around version .34 or .37?.  Most of it was all hacked together right?  Well that quote was from one dev. 

No at the time it was all game orientated.  The general feeling was that few on the project was interested in the preservation, the goal was trying to compete against all the hacks and getting said game to run. Like Final Burn.  You guys were treated like rock stars.  The amount to games available  jumped dramatically in a few weeks.

MESS is simply becoming the primary project not because devs have been scared off, but because like I said, it has more scope

But Mess was a fork that had a limited number of coders.  Other console emulators were so far advanced at the time, when Mess was only kicking out skeletal drivers for obscure Russian home computers.

The good old days.  Besides all this is history on our hard drives.  I think I have the very first versions of Mame on tape somewhere.

At the beginning you have about 1000 coders all over the planet.  So when coordinating such a massive project  you must of had numerous quality issues with similar code being generated., or was it all piece meal?

I'm sorry Haze that bit of insight was uncalled for.

Please forgive me and let us be civil in this train wreak of a thread.   


So you are setting the record straight that you alone was carrying the project, and you didn't scare off the other developers with your strict attitude and approach.  I stand corrected sir.

Civil and passive aggressive are poor bed fellows at best. 

No fooling you. 

[Haze]

No not an accusation just a general feeling that the project was stagnating and it needed new direction, which happened quite abruptly.  Well you got what you wanted, and everyone on the project got a new totally awesome coordinator.     Did he leave to work on Windows 8 RT?

Work and family are two significant factors in how much time people have to spend, and as you're probably well aware that is an area Aaron is on record as being involved in.

But most of it was code from other projects like Raine and Sparcade and that other one (retrocade?).  Well basically around version .34 or .37?.  Most of it was all hacked together right?  Well that quote was from one dev. 

No at the time it was all game orientated.  The general feeling was that few on the project was interested in the preservation, the goal was trying to compete against all the hacks and getting said game to run. Like Final Burn.  You guys were treated like rock stars.  The amount to games available  jumped dramatically in a few weeks.

There was a lot more easy work to be done back then, there isn't now.  You can say those were the good old days if you want, but rose tinted specs and all that.  Information was sometimes shared between devs of other emulators, used with permission.  Actual code was rarely shared between emulators because the frameworks didn't share that level of compatibility, Retrocade for example was almost entirely x86 assembly, tuned per game for maximum performance on a 486, not suitable for MAME at all.

Development attitudes between emulators were certainly different.  MAME shipped code with much higher requirements, knowing that processors would advance quickly enough for that code to become usable within a year or two.  Other emulators didn't ship anything unless they could guarantee it running on the lowest spec machine the authors could dig up.   MAME always shipped as source available, the others more often than not didn't.  MAME always had a stronger focus on documentation and helping others for this reason.

But Mess was a fork that had a limited number of coders.  Other console emulators were so far advanced at the time, when Mess was only kicking out skeletal drivers for obscure Russian home computers.

At the beginning you have about 1000 coders all over the planet.  So when coordinating such a massive project  you must of had numerous quality issues with similar code being generated., or was it all piece meal?

1000 is a gross exageration for the number of Mame coders.  People who have contributed, maybe, been credited, maybe, written code, not even close.

Mess faced a number of problems early on, Mamedev didn't care for it that much, and the console scene was (and unfortunately in some areas still is) about locking secrets tightly away, the people with a strong enough interest in the systems to do the work required on them seemed more interested in getting one up on the other emulators by keeping secrets than giving away their knowledge in the way that MAME / MESS did.  The tide is turning tho. 

In hindsight we should have cared about it more, especially once it became clear that a lot of the hardware was exactly the same and bringing things closer together would benefit our emulation.

[ark_ader]

Well we had a rocky ride and I got the information that I wanted, eventually.  Thanks.

If you are at CAX next year I will buy you a beer, I'll be the guy with the I love Sintron t-shirt and a crash helmet on.   

[mcseforsale]

How about some make-up sex?  Jeez.  You're like and old married couple.  Get a room already.

AJ
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