Is this board legal?

[DaOld Man]

Ok, I did some searching but couldnt find a straight answer.
At the risk of starting an argument about legalities, here is my story.
I am thinking about making a cab that will be donated to be auctioned off in a "Relay for Life" thing they do every year at my job. Workers donate things then people bid on them. All the proceeds go to fight cancer. I will not be getting anything for it, but I may deduct the value on my taxes as a contribution. (Screw the government, right?)
But I am concerned about copyrights and legal stuff. I do not want to put anything out there that would violate a copyright.
So I was thinking a way around this may be to use one of those 60 in 1 jamma boards, but it's just not clear to me as to how legal they are.

Here is the one Im looking at:

(Link removed by DaOld Man)


I would appreciate everyone's insights on this. I have not committed to doing this project yet, and I wont if it violates a copyright.
Thanks.

[Dervacumen]

Not a lawyer but for this to be legal the rights for each of these games must be held by the manufacturer.  I don't KNOW, but I DO know they're not.  So, yeah, all of the X-in-one boards are illegal.

It's not likely the manufacturer secured rights for every game on the chip, so odds are very high that at least one of the games on the 60-in-1 would be in violation of US copyright law.

Lastly, it's coming from China.  I deeply appreciate the Chinese.  I also don't think for a second the manufacturer of these boards, regardless of which one you get, is concerned about US copyright law.

[CheffoJeffo]

The board is an old version of MAME on a chip and the games are not licensed.

[BadMouth]

It's not legal, but there are a pile of machines running them at every arcade auction.

I'm not sure what multi williams boards go for.

I have some classic collections for pc that allow you to launch the games individually a little work,
so they could be added to a front-end, but that would be far from idiot proof once the end-user gets ahold of it.

[DaOld Man]

Ok thanks guys, I guess that project is off my to-do list.

[drventure]

A jukebox project might be good as an alternative....

[Le Chuck]

Those boards are so ubiquitous that I don't think you'd be doing anything terrible by building a cab around it for an auction, there are scads of 60-n-1s up for sale on KLOV right now.  I respect the choice not to use it due to the copy right issues but think that the difference between what you're doing and what a lot of operators do by raping old cabs and throwing those boards in at huge mark-up makes enough of a difference to let it slide and help out a charity with a product that is already out there.

 

[pinballwizard79]

I checked, its legal.

[Mac Green]

I checked, its legal.

Can I ask how this is legal? maybe if you don't charge to play it maybe a home use only machine would be legal and check this out http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=68206.0

[DaOld Man]

Yes, PBW, how do you know it is legal?
I would have no idea who gets the cab, or what they will do with it.
I was thinking about adding a working coin door just mostly for looks, but if I didnt do that it might encourage people to not use it for money gain.

[Ule]

It's all MAME fault.

Instead of saying on their splash screen: "Use of ROMs is illegal...blah, blah".

They should have said: "These ROMs are abandonware, they are not sold and copyright holders do not exist. We provide all the ROMs here for free and if there is someone who would like to claim a copyright please step forward to prove it, inform us where can we buy the game and if requested we will be happy to remove the game from our emulator."

That's what they should have said, and everything would have been different.

[Le Chuck]

It's all MAME fault.

Instead of saying on their splash screen: "Use of ROMs is illegal...blah, blah".

They should have said: "These ROMs are abandonware, they are not sold and copyright holders do not exist. We provide all the ROMs here for free and if there is someone who would like to claim a copyright please step forward to prove it, inform us where can we buy the game and if requested we will be happy to remove the game from our emulator."

That's what they should have said, and everything would have been different.

The MAME devs correctly stated the law.  What they listed is not an "interpretation".  If they listed your proposed language it would not have altered the law one iota and could have compromised the project.  What is the legal stance on abandonware again?  Oh that's right, it doesn't exist.  Failure to locate a copyright holder does not constitute permission to recreate the product.  

[paigeoliver]

It isn't legal, some operator probably just told PBW that it was. There is no way in the world that board could be legal and still sell for $75. If it was it would come with a manual, a serial number sticker, an artwork kit and it would cost about $600, not $75. The games on the board come from a dozen different manufacturers, some of which are basically defunct.

No one is going to kick down your door but those boards are most definitely bootleg and thus not legal. Both the mame software they run and the rom images they contain are unlicensed. Pretty much EVERY x in 1 jamma board is the same way, not aware of any legal ones other than the ones installed with a few of the retro cabinets made by the real arcade companies, which are way more expensive than the usual x in 1 boards.

Yes they sell them on Amazon and ebay but that doesn't mean they are legit. I was looking on amazon.co.uk earlier to research for a post on a different message board and found people openly selling mame compilations and loaded mame cabinets there too. Does that make that legit?

[paigeoliver]

If you want something completely legit that you can do on a budget for a charity auction then do a NES cabinet. The carts are cheap enough and you don't have the 4-way/8-way issue to worry about.

Plus those 60 in 1 boards are sort of junk. They mix 4-way, 8-way, alternating 2 player, simultaneous 2 player, trackball and spinner games on the same board. It is not an attempt at a good product, it is junk. They have sound issues as well.

[Ule]

It's all MAME fault.

Instead of saying on their splash screen: "Use of ROMs is illegal...blah, blah".

They should have said: "These ROMs are abandonware, they are not sold and copyright holders do not exist. We provide all the ROMs here for free and if there is someone who would like to claim a copyright please step forward to prove it, inform us where can we buy the game and if requested we will be happy to remove the game from our emulator."

That's what they should have said, and everything would have been different.

The MAME devs correctly stated the law.  What they listed is not an "interpretation".  If they listed your proposed language it would not have altered the law one iota and could have compromised the project.  What is the legal stance on abandonware again?  Oh that's right, it doesn't exist.  Failure to locate a copyright holder does not constitute permission to recreate the product.  

Perhaps, but playing stupid is a valid legal tactics, I think it would work for the best, especially if they were still based in Italy or some country other than USA.

The thing is, the developers of those games, those people who really matters here, rather than companies they worked for, they would prefer those games are out there. Playing them still after they can not be legally bought should not be theft and no one should feel like criminal because of it, but rather emulating and providing them is a tribute and appreciation, like we all can listen to classical music today and no one has to buy the notes and composition books or pay any copyright for it to anyone.

The point is to somehow enforce companies to say out loud and make their position official, black on white. I believe that's what Nintendo did and some other companies regarding some specific games, but there is still majority of the games for which the companies that made them really DO NOT EXIST, there is simply no one to claim copyright, they are gone, like Ludwig van Beethoven, but that should not stand in a way of us appreciating and paying tribute to those games, by actually playing them and making them available out there.

[paigeoliver]

The Mame project is in no real danger because it isn't worth anyone's money to go after. Sure you could shut down the website and spend terrific amounts of money to try to drag the developers into court in their native countries (good luck there). Even then I don't believe there is a single copyright holder out there who has enough revenue at stake from the involved IP to make it worth the costs involved. Even if they did it wouldn't do anything because the horse has already left the barn. The source code is out there for anyone to mess with. The executables and rom images will float out there forever. All the relevant stuff got emulated more or less perfectly only a few years into the project before the project was even a blip on the radar of the IP holders. The rest of the stuff that got added through the years has little or no commercial value, even though much of it was emulating current arcade games. It is either too obscure to have any commercial value in a rerelease (almost all the 2D stuff), or it was 3D and 3D games do not age well (nor do well in rereleases).

It's all MAME fault.

Instead of saying on their splash screen: "Use of ROMs is illegal...blah, blah".

They should have said: "These ROMs are abandonware, they are not sold and copyright holders do not exist. We provide all the ROMs here for free and if there is someone who would like to claim a copyright please step forward to prove it, inform us where can we buy the game and if requested we will be happy to remove the game from our emulator."

That's what they should have said, and everything would have been different.

The MAME devs correctly stated the law.  What they listed is not an "interpretation".  If they listed your proposed language it would not have altered the law one iota and could have compromised the project.  What is the legal stance on abandonware again?  Oh that's right, it doesn't exist.  Failure to locate a copyright holder does not constitute permission to recreate the product.  

[amendonz]

Doesn't a copyright holder need to be actively protecting it's copyright's to be still valid? Doesn't seem like they are here. I could be wrong though

[paigeoliver]

That is a trademark, not a copyright.

Doesn't a copyright holder need to be actively protecting it's copyright's to be still valid? Doesn't seem like they are here. I could be wrong though

[amendonz]

Ahh , my bad.

[alfonzotan]

I will MAKE it legal!

[BobA]

60 in 1's play quite well but the sound is off for a few of the games.  Not enough for me to notice though.

[Nephasth]

If you want something completely legit that you can do on a budget for a charity auction then do a NES cabinet. The carts are cheap enough and you don't have the 4-way/8-way issue to worry about.

...horrible idea.

[pinballwizard79]

"I checked, its legal" = I was just giving you the justification mechanisim you needed to have some fun & do some good.

For example: If your ultracade crashes & the "promised" support for that product ended but your inflated purchase price *included* the licensing is it then legal to pay BBB for a copy of HS & only load the games that are on your dead ultracade & then allow quarters to enter the machine?

Who knows, just dont be all Dave Foley about things & you will be OK.

[yotsuya]

Build a nice cabinet, make it Jamma-compatible, and let the buyer decide what to do with it.

[Haze]

"I checked, its legal" = I was just giving you the justification mechanisim you needed to have some fun & do some good.

You're also outright lying to somebody who came here and asked for genuine advice.

As stated before, no, they're not legal, and they're not even that good, a lot of games have awful sound, and hacked up copyrights (usually blanked out) which makes them look cheap and nasty.

Anybody claiming otherwise is probably either a) selling them, b) involved with their production or c) both deaf and blind

[Well Fed Games]

I appreciate the question... while I have a full MAME cab, I went a different way when I was building a gift cab, as it just felt right giving something that was 100% legal.

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the console idea, though. A gamecube w/Namco Museum 50th anniversary would make a very inexpensive guts for a cabinet, and while it would not be coin operated, it would be legal, and with the right TV would have a one-button on and off.

[rCadeGaming]

They are openly sold on Amazon and E-bay, I don't think the Donkey Kong Police are going to kick down your door.

+1.  While I agree that it's technically illegal, I wouldn't be worried about being persecuted for helping a charity.  I don't think it's immoral.

If you disagree with me, I think using a console, a legal PC collection, or any empty JAMMA cabinet are pretty good options; don't give up the project!

[Malenko]

Well I have a few different jamma games, if you wanted a board to build a cab for charity I'd donate one to you.

I have Kung Fu with a jamma adapter, Tekken 2 VerB with a kick harness, Break Thru (jeep game); the rest are non jamma or ones I dont wanna give up :p

 Let me know if you want any of them, none are bootlegs.

[Green Giant]

Donating this for a charity auction seems like it raises so many confusing legal problems.

After reading quite a bit about digital technology and copyright laws I would say there is a really big gray area out there.  10 years ago I would say there is no problem at all.  Recently with the introduction of all those little 10 in 1 plug n' play joysticks it gets fuzzy.  Any game that you can actually buy again today through those little devices would be illegal to have on the 60 in 1.

If you cannot legally obtain the rom in question though, acquiring it as a mame rom is perfectly legal as one guy stated through the abandonware rule.  If you then go and make money on said rom you are breaking the law.

I think that one part and the fact you are donating this make it a big gray area issue.  Personally I would not worry about it and make the thing.  If the funds and time became available I would love to make a kid arcade for the children's hospital.  I don't really care if I put mame on it for the kids, and if anyone had a problem I would tell them to call me.

I would love to see someone try and prosecute someone for attempting to help out sick and dieing people.

[SteveR]

Recently with the introduction of all those little 10 in 1 plug n' play joysticks it gets fuzzy.  Any game that you can actually buy again today through those little devices would be illegal to have on the 60 in 1.

Has anyone tried hacking one of those things to use real controls yet? I haven't played any of them but if they're not too horrible that could be the solution. Legal, and cheap with no need for a computer.

So this is my first post and already I'm adding unexpected tinkering projects to my list.

[Green Giant]

Recently with the introduction of all those little 10 in 1 plug n' play joysticks it gets fuzzy.  Any game that you can actually buy again today through those little devices would be illegal to have on the 60 in 1.

Has anyone tried hacking one of those things to use real controls yet? I haven't played any of them but if they're not too horrible that could be the solution. Legal, and cheap with no need for a computer.

So this is my first post and already I'm adding unexpected tinkering projects to my list.

On top of that, if they can be successfully hacked into.

You could wire up several of them with a big rotating dial to switch between boards.  Could get a frogger one, pacman, etc, etc, etc

[rCadeGaming]

I don't really care if I put mame on it for the kids, and if anyone had a problem I would tell them to call me.

I would love to see someone try and prosecute someone for attempting to help out sick and dieing people.

+1

Also, let's quit ragging on the MAME splash screen.  The Devs put it there because it's the most responsible thing for them to do.  They're right to cover their own ass.  However strong or weak their case is, they should bolster their defense as well as possible in hopes that they can continue to keep our hobby moving forward.  It really shouldn't be a problem to any of us users, anyone who is willing to get the ROMs can apply a patch to remove the splash screen anyway.

[CheffoJeffo]

Jason.S, I don't speak crazy.  What universe are you from?  Is it fun there?  

Can someone please interpret? 

Jason S appears to be the latest in a long line of online personas adopted by the (repeatedly banned) user driverman.

He is a lunatic who put forth the argument that, since he got a receipt and paid taxes, his multiboards are legal. He also 'explained' to us that the parallel port is vastly superior to all other ports for interfacing controls. Then he bitched out the MAMEDevs for controller support and proceeded to stalk folks here and elsewhere (where he was also banned).

 

[knave]

Why not build a cab out of a Jakks controller. The masses won't care as long as it plays. I'm a fan of the Pac-man Collection. You could even get fancy and have a few in there and make it switchable. but For charity a cab that plays pac man is cool regardless.

Plus it's 100% legal...

[Green Giant]

Jason.S, I don't speak crazy.  What universe are you from?  Is it fun there?  

Can someone please interpret? 

I get what he is saying.  He is being really anal in saying it is not illegal until a judge rules on your particular case.


But in reality there is a big gray area.  The law clearly says that old technology that cannot be easily acquired any more through the copyright holder can be gained through other means such as roms.  The huge problem is that all those companies that gave up on their old stuff and sold the license years ago are now seeing the old school stuff redone all over the place.

You now have stuff like xbox live games, plug n'play joysticks, retro-cartridges for gameboy/others.  Someone clearly has been buying up the license for these old games and started to make them available.  It is very confusing legally speaking.  The games I got 10 years ago were perfectly legal back then, but now they may or may not be legal.

[rCadeGaming]

Is it just me or did Jason's testimony just get stricken from the record?  Order in this court!  Haha

[Kangum]

I like the jukebox idea. then there is no issue

[DaOld Man]

I think a jukebox might require more money than Im willing to throw into this right now, but I am considering it.

Back to the 60 in 1 jamma board: I sent the website an email and asked them if the games are legit. They sent me an automated acknowledgement that they received the email and would answer my question very soon, so I know they got the email.
It's been three days and no word from them yet.

[darthpaul]

Now you are scaring me because my next project is going to be a Jukebox. I know how much money I have invested in my cabinet, which has been a decent amount even though the PC and Monitor were freebies, why would a Jukebox cost more if you don't mind me asking?

[DaOld Man]

Well, compared to a regular mame cab with a PC, the cost wouldnt be a lot higher I suppose. However if you used a touch screen monitor on the juke, then this would increase the cost.
I was comparing the cost of a juke box with the cost of using the jamma 60 in 1 board.
By using this board I can deduct the cost of the PC. Wiring everything to a simple on/off switch becomes very simple, thus less cost, plus with the jamma board I would only use 1 joystick and 3 or 4 buttons (I think).
Plus a much cheaper (than a touch screen) CRT monitor (Which I have on hand anyway).
Anyway, I was comparing cost of juke box compared to that setup.
Dont let my statement scare you away from doing a juke.
Its well worth whatever you put into it in my opinion, but thats if you are doing it for yourself or a close friend or family member.
One more thing, the more complicated a project is (juke box VS 60 in 1 cab), the more of a chance someone will be calling me to work on it for them :-)