How do you know your JAMMA PCB is legal?

[Driver-Man]

1.) I have 450-in-1, it runs on x86 PC with AdvanceMAME and ArcadeOS. I did not expect this to come with any papers explaining how game ROMs are licensed by the original game maker/publisher. The question here is whether this "PCB" classify as "bootleg" in the same way as there were Donkey Kong bootlegs in the 80's?


2.) I also have popular 60-in-1 PCB, which runs on some ARM based 'Computer-On-Module', most likely with some version of MAME too. Again, there were not any papers saying anything about legality, copyright or licensing of those game ROMs.

I suppose my 60-in-1 is "bootleg" then as well, but is there such thing as 60-in-1 PCB that actually comes with some piece of paper saying the games are licensed? How does that piece of paper look like? And finally, who is this manufacturer, what is the company with ALL the necessary copyright licenses to produce PCBs with all those ROMs today? What about arcade "abandonware", what's with the games whose makers and copyright holders do not exist anymore, can anyone object if I operate or sell those games?  

 
What is the difference in legality:
a.) Made in China: IBM PC clone - legal?
b.) Made in China: Namco Galaga clone - not legal?


3.) Ok, so you buy "actual", 20-something years old PCB, say Frogger. Do you expect it to come with a piece of paper saying something about it being "original", licensed or whatever? And if you do not have that piece of paper, how legal is then for you to put that PCB in arcade shop, or sell it on e-bay?  

I do not have any information about 'how much legal' was to operate bootleg PCBs 20 years ago in arcade shops. Were there any legal lawsuits and police raids in relation to this back then? And today, is there anyone doing anything about today's bootlegs? Is there "arcade police" opening your cabinets and asking for papers, permits and licenses for your games? And my last question, is it "less legal" to operate/sell 20 year old single-game bootlegs, or today's multi-game MAME based bootlegs?

[jimmy2x2x]

Technically I think all forms of bootlegs are illegal.

The risk of prosecution will vary by the amount of public exposure the cabinet receives, the authenticity of the bootleg, popularity and earnings are large factors too.

If its in your basement and played on by your friends and family I couldn't envisage a situation where a realistic risk of prosecution would arise.  However if you had 100 such machines sited in popular central locations, the risk would be a lot more significant as the exposure has greatly increased, along with potential earnings - this is what attracts the real attention, money.  When money is involved people get jealous - maybe another operator would tell the appropriate authorities etc..

[Driver-Man]

Yes, ok, but first I need to know whether my JAMMA PCB is legal to start with. -- How do you know your JAMMA PCBs are legal? Did you get any papers with any of the PCBs you have? Have you ever seen any such paper, or heard of it? For example, where does it say that "Donkey Kong by Nintendo" is legal, and that "Crazy Kong by Falcon/Alca/Orca" is bootleg? Did any of the original PCBs come with some piece of paper, some proof of originality, something like 'Windows serial number sticker'?


So, is my 60-in-1 legal or not? How can I tell?

And, all those 60-in-1 PCBs in all the arcades in the world, are any of them actually legal?

[WhereEaglesDare]

Yes, ok, but first I need to know whether my JAMMA PCB is legal to start with. -- How do you know your JAMMA PCBs are legal? Did you get any papers with any of the PCBs you have? Have you ever seen any such paper, or heard of it? For example, where does it say that "Donkey Kong by Nintendo" is legal, and that "Crazy Kong by Falcon/Alca/Orca" is bootleg? Did any the original PCBs come with some piece of paper, some proof of originality, something like today's 'Windows serial number sticker'?


So, is my 60-in-1 legal or not? How can I tell?

And, all those 60-in-1 PCBs in all the arcades in the world, are any of them actually legal?

 
I dot think that any of the 60-1 boards are "legal"...  why does it matter?  Are you going to charge to play? 

[jimmy2x2x]

If you want to know about a specific PCB then you could ask about it here or maybe on KLOV.

I don't think there is any quick at-a-glance way to identify bootlegs, some are more obvious than others with very different board layouts or missing key design elements like manufacturers logos etc..

I wouldn't put any weight in any paperwork you might acquire with a board, its the board itself you need to examine and verify.

[Driver-Man]

WhereEaglesDare,

I too do not see how any of "those" multi-game PCBs can be legal.

I do not own arcade shop.
It matters to me in all those ways I expressed via my questions, I'm curious.

Why does it matter to you why does it matter to me? It's always better to know, right?

[Driver-Man]

If you want to know about a specific PCB then you could ask about it here or maybe on KLOV.

I don't think there is any quick at-a-glance way to identify bootlegs, some are more obvious than others with very different board layouts or missing key design elements like manufacturers logos etc..

I wouldn't put any weight in any paperwork you might acquire with a board, its the board itself you need to examine and verify.

Yeah, it's all very vague and original copyrights perhaps can not stand very well against abuse in today's circumstances, especially since they seem did not matter too much in the past.


The point is... where is the line?

Why would everyone be able to freely sell/operate 60-in-1  PCBs, and I can not my home-made 200-in-1 PC? Just because it's made in China, perhaps because emulator and ROMs are better hidden, so not many people know it's the MAME just the same? Is "arcade police" that stupid? Konami, Sega, Nintendo... do they not know, why do they do not do anything? Have they actually done anything about those '80-'90 bootlegs, ever?


...and so, who is going to object when I operate/sell my home made "200-in-1" MAME based PC? Sega? And, if I put it all on some ARM based PCB and hide all the ROMs and emulator, then that would apparently be Ok, as far as e-bay, police, sega, konami, nintendo... are concerned, anyway, right? So, what should I be worried about at the end? Who is going to sue me and for what? MAME developers for ignoring their "non-commercial use" notice?

It all sounds to me like some "scare tactics" with very little actual legal grounds, which ironically seem to have started with MAME itself. People know ROMs are illegal because MAME say so, while actual licenses expired long time ago, do not legally exist anymore, can not be applied, or apparently real copyright holders, if any, do not even care. Unless, am I mistaken?

[nitz]

Yeah, it's all very vague and original copyrights perhaps can not stand very well against abuse in today's circumstances, especially since they seem did not matter too much in the past.

The copyrights are as valid today as they ever were. I'm no expert on copyright law, but as far as I can surmise, I doubt any of us are going to live long enough to see the copyrights expire on these games. Having said that, most of the copyright owners aren't as likely to go after the infringers now because they have so much less to gain from doing so than they did back when their games were profitable. I think it did matter in the past, it's just that it's hard to stop.

Why would everyone be able to freely sell/operate 60-in-1  PCBs, and I can not my home-made 200-in-1 PC?

They freely sell 60 in 1s because no one stops them, not because it's better or more legal than selling a home made PC equivalent.

...and so, who is going to object when I operate/sell my home made "200-in-1" MAME based PC? Sega? And, if I put it all on some ARM based PCB and hide all the ROMs and emulator, then that would apparently be Ok, as far as e-bay, police, sega, konami, nintendo... are concerned, anyway, right? So, what should I be worried about at the end? Who is going to sue me and for what? MAME developers for ignoring their "non-commercial use" notice?

It all sounds to me like some "scare tactics" with very little actual legal grounds, which ironically seem to have started with MAME itself. People know ROMs are illegal because MAME say so, while actual licenses expired long time ago, do not legally exist anymore, can not be applied, or apparently real copyright holders, if any, do not even care. Unless, am I mistaken?

Since you asked, a lot of people here are going to object to you selling a homemade cab with mame and roms on it. And I'm sure the mame devs could sue you if they wanted to, and the copyright holders definitely could. It's doubtful that they actually would unless you do this on a very large, very public scale, but they would certainly have grounds to do so if they found out about it and wanted to take action.

These are not scare tactics. It's the truth. I think you would be hard-pressed to find a commercial video game that is not still under copyright. Even if the original company no longer exists, somebody owns the copyright still. Sure, some of the copyright holders don't care, but the games are definitely under copyright.

I get the feeling that you're hoping someone's going to say, "Hey, you're right! That's all abadonware, you should totally sell homemade cabs with mame and 200 games on them!" I doubt anyone here is going to say that to you.

I guess you're new here, and I welcome you to the forum.  I'm not trying to sound negative or bring you down. Just stating some facts and kindly advising you to drop this topic as you're likely going to just upset a lot of folks here if you keep pursuing it.

[jimmy2x2x]

I think individuals know they are infringing by possessing roms they don't have a legal right to, but they don't openly distribute them, publicly display them or make any kind of money from them.  This seems to be the acceptable, unspoken rule regarding roms for many.

The Mame licence on the other hand is utterly respected, I think this respect is two fold: for the work done in the past and more importantly the ongoing work into the future.  We all love Mame, it has a cleverly worded licence that would make it difficult to be shut down by any concerned third parties.  I feel this is the reason almost everyone is vigilant about the enforcement and upkeep of the terms of Mame's licence.

Where as the majority wouldn't care at all if the 60-1 factory was shut down and sued into oblivion.

Thats my take on it, and that is where I draw the line.

[SavannahLion]

It all sounds to me like some "scare tactics" with very little actual legal grounds, which ironically seem to have started with MAME itself. People know ROMs are illegal because MAME say so, while actual licenses expired long time ago, do not legally exist anymore, can not be applied, or apparently real copyright holders, if any, do not even care. Unless, am I mistaken?

This is a topic that has come up in various forms time and time again in every single forum I've ever been a member of. Even if that forum theoretically has nothing to do with copyrights in any fashion anyways.

You appear to be misinformed about copyrights and how it's applied. But before we go any further, I should point out that what I'm going to write applies to U.S. territories. Other countries have different copyright laws which further complicate things.

First of, the issues about copyrights did NOT start with MAME. They haven't been around long enough. MAMEDev simply recognizes the issues that surround copyrights and (apparently) make an effort to avoid getting attention from those who count. So please, refrain crediting MAMEDev with something that's been going on long before the first line of code was ever written.

AFAIK, under current law, no game license has naturally expired at all. Video games are simply too young for copyrights to expire. Here's why. As a rule of thumb, works created on or after 1978 enjoy anywhere from 70 years + life of the creator (eg if I create a game and release it) to 120 years (eg if I work for a company to create the game).
   
Games created before 1978 (eg Pong) fall under some wicked copyright laws that it would potentially take pages of discussion to unravel what it means. In a nutshell though, since the creators of Pong are still alive the clock hasn't even started to tick for most of these games. By my calculations, the earliest any game would have a hope of having a naturally expiring copyright would be in 2042 and that would require the author to suffer an immediate death upon burning the first data to chip.

As for whether these people care or the company collapses or whatever. That is also a discussion that could potentially take an entire dedicated forum to figure out. It's very easy for copyright holders to not even realize they own the copyright to a particular game. Happens with movies often enough Night of the Comet is a prime example. Other times it could simply be an issue of cost/benefit. I have serious doubts that little old Grannie with the attic full of her dead son's copyrights would ever have the money or wherewithall to pursue some anonymous company in China selling X-in-1 boards in an online store located in Japan.
   
In short, X in 1 boards violate copyrights, period. Either whomever owns the rights to the game or even the MAME developers but they violate copyright. AFAIK, most (if not all) of us here know this and we accept it for what it is (whether we agree is an entirely different matter). Try not to be an jerk trying to justify something we all know to be true anyways. Show the hobby and market some respect.

[Driver-Man]

Ok, I agree with all that, thank you all. In summary, I find it interesting people care more about MAME legal warnings than about actual copyright of the game ROMs themselves. Anyway, we all concluded 60-in-1 PCBs can not be legal, but in reality we sure see they're quite "legal".

These 48-in-1, 60-in-1 are actually quite wide spread and freely sold and played everywhere, are they not? Even blatant MAME PC based 400-in-1, 1000-in-1... boards are sold everywhere and imported/exported freely, on-line and in retail shops. This is not smuggled and sold under the counter, these are actually taxed by the government, so they are in fact legal, are they not? If you can buy it in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then who can sue you for putting in it in your arcade cabinet and charge for the play? How were you supposed to know? Government took their profit there as well, so they don't seem to care too much? Who cares? Who sues?

There is obviously some discrepancy between what people say and what actually is, so I still reserve my doubts that any of the original copyright would really stand in the court. Was there any legal action in relation to any arcade bootlegs, ever?

[Driver-Man]

...kindly advising you to drop this topic as you're likely going to just upset a lot of folks here if you keep pursuing it.

Try not to be an jerk trying to justify something we all know to be true anyways. Show the hobby and market some respect.

Errr, ok, I hear you, but I have no idea what are you referring to. What are you two talking about, please? I see people on this forum openly saying to have thousands of ROMs, so that's not it, and at least I paid for my illegal machines, but that only makes me stupid... what else?

I kind of see where and how our view on the subject can differ, but I do not see there can be any disrespect to anyone. I'm sort of "MAME developer" myself, if that matters at all, but all the same I have nothing but respect for MAME and how it came to be, for all the people that contributed, and so on...


Interestingly though I was also responsible for couple of published Amstrad CPC games. I speak not only for myself, but many actual programmers when I say I would like my games to be played freely. I don't even know whether they are or not, it was never up to me anyway. I made those games so everyone can play it, that was my motivation and satisfaction, and I find it unfortunate that some lost copyrights stand between people and my games, that's not fair to me - the actual maker, the actual programmer, not the bloody company that would have my games buried in their ignorance. Games are meant to be played, and that's the most important thing here, not silly laws that would have them forgotten.


Where do we disagree, exactly?

[WhereEaglesDare]

Hey, you're right! That's all abadonware, you should totally sell homemade cabs with mame and 200 games on them!  Make sure you put Ads up EVERYWHERE.  eBay, Craigslist, Classifieds, street poles, everywhere.  

Oh and you got to make sure you charge a ridiculous amount for what you didn't pay for.

[Turnarcades]

All current multi-game boards are illegal. End of. The only reason they don't get pulled on ebay and places like that is because the people in charge aren't clued up enough - they're just PC's with emulation software and JAMMA connectors, but as they look like an ordinary PCB to the layman and aren't obviously programmable, the dolts regulating the sites don't delve further.

Why do you think links to them are banned here?

[Malenko]

all of the X in 1 are illegal. The 60(+) in 1s because they use copyrighted ROMs and MAME, even the multiple CPS1/2s because they use roms (but no emulation) and the 120 in NeoGeo carts. I'm not entirely sure how illegal hacks are, like SF2 Rainbow, so long as its using edited data on legit boards.


As for buying , for example, a bootleg Frogger you thought was authentic. In the unlikely event you were prosecuted I dont really see you getting in much trouble (unless you some how made A LOT of money with it) especially if the board looks very legit. Sometimes I cant tell, I even had a bootleg puzzle bobble cart and a legit one side by side and other then a very small marking on the back of the PCB they looked identical

[CheffoJeffo]

3.) Ok, so you buy "actual", 20-something years old PCB, say Frogger. Do you expect it to come with a piece of paper saying something about it being "original", licensed or whatever? And if you do not have that piece of paper, how legal is then for you to put that PCB in arcade shop, or sell it on e-bay?  

No, there are no "certificates of authenticity".

[saint]

All current multi-game boards are illegal. End of. The only reason they don't get pulled on ebay and places like that is because the people in charge aren't clued up enough - they're just PC's with emulation software and JAMMA connectors, but as they look like an ordinary PCB to the layman and aren't obviously programmable, the dolts regulating the sites don't delve further.

Why do you think links to them are banned here?

Correct, with one exception I believe. I think there was one multi-board (believe it's no longer being marketed but might be available after-market) that did not come with ROMs, and you had to populate it yourself with ROMs you owned.

[CheffoJeffo]

All current multi-game boards are illegal. End of. The only reason they don't get pulled on ebay and places like that is because the people in charge aren't clued up enough - they're just PC's with emulation software and JAMMA connectors, but as they look like an ordinary PCB to the layman and aren't obviously programmable, the dolts regulating the sites don't delve further.

Why do you think links to them are banned here?

Correct, with one exception I believe. I think there was one multi-board (believe it's no longer being marketed but might be available after-market) that did not come with ROMs, and you had to populate it yourself with ROMs you owned.

Correct, although there is now a bootleg of that particular board. 

[push2reject]

*attempts constructive thread-jacking*

Anyone remember the "Nintendo Seal of Quality" on the NES cartridges?

[Haze]

All current multi-game boards are illegal. End of. The only reason they don't get pulled on ebay and places like that is because the people in charge aren't clued up enough - they're just PC's with emulation software and JAMMA connectors, but as they look like an ordinary PCB to the layman and aren't obviously programmable, the dolts regulating the sites don't delve further.

Why do you think links to them are banned here?

What he said.

With the possible exception of _some_ versions of Ultracade*, and the official Namco Reunion boards (MsPacman / Pacman / Galaga) all the known multi-game boards are illegal.

Running a bootleg PCB, or a PCB with unofficially modified software (region hacked, game swapped etc.) is also Illegal.

Even running something like the Phoenix CPS2 sets might get you into trouble as they're hacked code, not approved by Capcom and allow you to run games 'out of region' (Capcom run their own at-cost repair service)  You could argue it was a repair job, but Capcom would no doubt argue otherwise.

Most of the multi-games are based on MAME, even the 48/60 in 1 systems, which look to be based on an old version of MAME4ALL (the low spec hardware version)

There are a couple which are non-emulation based and run a large number of 68k based games, which aren't MAME, but are also Illegal.

The ones that run on original hardware (multi-neogeo carts, multi-cps) are also Illegal.

The majority of games produced in the 80/90s in Korea are Illegal, because they simply used hacked up code from other people's games, and likewise, stole graphics / sound.  Likewise, a fair number of Italian produced games.
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2008/06/19/entirely-stolen-drawings/
and an older (5 years!) more complete article I did about these things
http://tinyurl.com/34vfaon
(there are many more examples, and after emulating world rally it looks like blomby car only stole graphics, not code in that case)
I'm not sure if this one is legal.. they did rewrite the game.. but I think Namco might have something to say anyway ;-)
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2010/03/13/digging-home-the-point/

Many gambling games have also been deemed illegal in various places due to regulation changes (which is why you see those photos of 'arcade' graveyards full of them)  You're usually required to destroy them when they're decommissioned, which is why emulating them is important.

----

In summary .... If you're running anything but an original authentic board on location then yes, you're running the risk of being prosecuted if you're found out.  Likewise, if you're selling them, there is always a risk.

Most of these things are still sold probably because
a) the companies have no idea which of their game PCBs are bootlegs anymore (for older single PCBs)
b) the amount of money they could hope to gain through the legal process isn't worth it (most of the people making these things are based in Asia)

*Note, Ultracade did get taken to court over all of this, probably because they were a much easier target (being US based), and were advertising their goods as being genuine and licensed when the copyright owners felt otherwise, claiming they had no contract / license with them.

Likewise if you start bootlegging the *newer* stuff that they're still trying to sell now then the legal gears start to move.

MAME emulates and documents this stuff so that you don't have to, and to make it easier to identify if what you have might not be an original product.

[CheffoJeffo]

The ones that run on original hardware (multi-neogeo carts, multi-cps) are also Illegal.

There is a single exception to this that I am aware of -- the Exidy 440 Multis are licensed (well, the recent batch are ... I dunno about the original beta batch).

[BadMouth]

It all comes down to whether a company wants to pursue the counterfeiters or not.

Merit sucessfully tracked down a Megatouch counterfeiter in China and had the owner of the company was arrested.
(he was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison)
The same factory was making counterfeit Sega and Namco games also, but Merit was the only company to pursue them.
If it weren't for them doing their own investigating and pushing the issue, the counterfeiter would still be in business.

Any company is within their rights to pursue the issue against any vendor dealing in bootlegs.
As stated earlier, it's about profit and profile. 
The Chinese company had a website & distribution network.

Gotta be pragmatic and go on with things.......

[Haze]

It all comes down to whether a company wants to pursue the counterfeiters or not.

Merit sucessfully tracked down a Megatouch counterfeiter in China and had the owner of the company was arrested.
(he was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison)
The same factory was making counterfeit Sega and Namco games also, but Merit was the only company to pursue them.
If it weren't for them doing their own investigating and pushing the issue, the counterfeiter would still be in business.

Heh, I'm surprised anybody does business with Merit anymore anyway.  From what I was reading their more recent Megatouch games require the operators to buy security keys which are good for a certain number of credits and the games 'expire' after that, ie, you can't just run them, you have to keep going back to Merit to top up your 'key' as if it were some kind of Mobile phone.  Sounds like a terrible business model to buy into if you're an operator.

Assuming it is the same company then it doesn't surprise me that they're one of the most active in the legal department either, because I imagine a LOT of operators are unhappy with this situation, but rather than please their customers, they'd rather take the legal route.

[SavannahLion]

Ok, I agree with all that, thank you all. In summary, I find it interesting people care more about MAME legal warnings than about actual copyright of the game ROMs themselves. Anyway, we all concluded 60-in-1 PCBs can not be legal, but in reality we sure see they're quite "legal".

These 48-in-1, 60-in-1 are actually quite wide spread and freely sold and played everywhere, are they not? Even blatant MAME PC based 400-in-1, 1000-in-1... boards are sold everywhere and imported/exported freely, on-line and in retail shops. This is not smuggled and sold under the counter, these are actually taxed by the government, so they are in fact legal, are they not? If you can buy it in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then who can sue you for putting in it in your arcade cabinet and charge for the play? How were you supposed to know? Government took their profit there as well, so they don't seem to care too much? Who cares? Who sues?

There is obviously some discrepancy between what people say and what actually is, so I still reserve my doubts that any of the original copyright would really stand in the court. Was there any legal action in relation to any arcade bootlegs, ever?

Once again, understanding how copyright law is applied would help you here. Apparently tax laws as well.

Government entities generally don't step in on private matters between two individuals or entities. Generally speaking, government entities would step in when things become a public matter or a safety matter or whatever (I'm not clued in to all the potentials of this). This is partly why you have people throw ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- fits about government control and the extent this is allowed under various constitutions and whatnot. Quite frankly, I don't recall any copyright court case involving a government entity, it's always between two or more private entities. If you know of one, point it out.

As for the taxing of a particular product and the apparent "legalization" of that product. This is sort of things occurs all the time (looks up California and Marijuana). Not understanding how governments function is primary cause of frustration amongst private individuals. All too often, people have this misinformed belief that the government is a single entity, that laws that apply to private individuals apply equally public entities (or vice versa) and that these laws universally apply in a sensible matter. This is just how it is, it has nothing to do with right or wrong, whether I agree or disagree. I waste hours each day of my life pointing this out to people, not that it matters miuch, that's within my purview.

Truth of the matter, laws are rarely silly in the strictest sense of the word. Every law serves a purpose, it's just a matter of whether that purpose is truly applicable anymore (segregation laws anyone?). As it stands, copyright laws are not going away anytime soon and thanks to entities like Sonny Bono and Disney, these laws are only becoming more strict.

I asked you to show the hobby and market some respect in the sense that we all know the issues surrounding copyrights on ROMS and we all know what we're doing (at least we think we do). Arguing about the application of copyrights doesn't do anyone a lick of good. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and  read up on copyright laws with a neutral mind. Understand that this is the way it is. Any preconceived notions you may have about copyright laws just makes you look like an ass and taints any possibility of understanding all of this.

I can't vouch for everyone here, but I don't necessarily agree with copyrights 100%, especially with the recent extensions and the constant prosecution from the MPAA/RIAA to force us to stick with an archaic business model. The difference is understanding how things are, accept that it's the reality of the situation, and if you don't like it, actively work to change that. And no, out and out violating someone's copyright is probably not the best way to go about it.

[nitz]

...kindly advising you to drop this topic as you're likely going to just upset a lot of folks here if you keep pursuing it.

Try not to be an jerk trying to justify something we all know to be true anyways. Show the hobby and market some respect.

Errr, ok, I hear you, but I have no idea what are you referring to. What are you two talking about, please? I see people on this forum openly saying to have thousands of ROMs, so that's not it, and at least I paid for my illegal machines, but that only makes me stupid... what else?

I kind of see where and how our view on the subject can differ, but I do not see there can be any disrespect to anyone. I'm sort of "MAME developer" myself, if that matters at all, but all the same I have nothing but respect for MAME and how it came to be, for all the people that contributed, and so on...


Interestingly though I was also responsible for couple of published Amstrad CPC games. I speak not only for myself, but many actual programmers when I say I would like my games to be played freely. I don't even know whether they are or not, it was never up to me anyway. I made those games so everyone can play it, that was my motivation and satisfaction, and I find it unfortunate that some lost copyrights stand between people and my games, that's not fair to me - the actual maker, the actual programmer, not the bloody company that would have my games buried in their ignorance. Games are meant to be played, and that's the most important thing here, not silly laws that would have them forgotten.


Where do we disagree, exactly?

I was just referring to talk about selling mame and roms. That's all. It's totally cool to talk about mame and roms here of course, but not selling them or where to find roms.

We disagree on what you're saying about the copyrights on these games and the legality of selling them. Saying the copyrights are no longer valid, or that it's legal to sell mame and roms you don't own, well, that's simply not true. It's not something we all have differing opinions on or anything - it's a fact and you really can't argue about it without looking silly.

Hey, you're right! That's all abadonware, you should totally sell homemade cabs with mame and 200 games on them!  Make sure you put Ads up EVERYWHERE.  eBay, Craigslist, Classifieds, street poles, everywhere. 

Oh and you got to make sure you charge a ridiculous amount for what you didn't pay for.

Yeah, as soon as I posted that, I just knew someone would step up and prove me wrong!

[Driver-Man]

SavannahLion,

Arguing about the application of copyrights doesn't do anyone a lick of good. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and  read up on copyright laws with a neutral mind. Understand that this is the way it is. Any preconceived notions you may have about copyright laws just makes you look like an ass and taints any possibility of understanding all of this.

Why so angry? I'm asking questions here, and you are telling me I should have already known the answers? You are being an ass, though your unprovoked anger makes it all interesting and I am still looking forward to figuring out what is it about this subject that makes you so nervous to keep farting like that.

You are not really saying anything specific, you just keep insulting me for no reason and repeating YOUR OPINION, insisting that your opinion is better than my opinion, without any actual proof or reference to the facts and the real world.


Q.) If you buy X-in-1 in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then can it be illegal to operate or re-sell that PCB? YES/NO

Yes, it's illegal? According to whom, according to what?

I want to do exactly what you suggested, I want to read about it, but what, where? Show me.


We know all the opinions now, and I appreciate everyone's OPINION, but opinion is just an opinion, and if I was right, if this was indeed some "scare tactics" then everyone would have this opinion just like this. But you can not prove an opinion by keep repeating it, that's how mass-hypnosis and self-convincing works to start with. I want to talk about actuality, the real world and FACTS, not about your propaganda filled, self-sustained hallucinations. I want to see citations, quotes and references, past legal actions and previous convictions, stuff that actually happened, in the real world.  




Haze,

*Note, Ultracade did get taken to court over all of this, probably because they were a much easier target (being US based), and were advertising their goods as being genuine and licensed when the copyright owners felt otherwise, claiming they had no contract / license with them.

Ok, that's kind of stuff I want to know about. Not opinions, just facts. So, did the court found them guilty? Who pressed the charges? Where can I read about how it ended?

[Driver-Man]

nitz,

I was just referring to talk about selling mame and roms. That's all. It's totally cool to talk about mame and roms here of course, but not selling them or where to find roms.

We disagree on what you're saying about the copyrights on these games and the legality of selling them.

I do not suggest anyone should break any laws or ignore any copyrights. Perhaps it is confusing that I pose my questions as examples set in real-world circumstances and from the first person point of view, but that's only to be more illustrative. 


Look, I *legally* bought my JAMMA PCBs, that you all say now are actually illegal (according to something). Now, I do not want be violating any laws if I decide later to sell these PCBs, therefore I argue - if government let me buy this thing legally then I am not obligated to do any further investigation to find out whether this product is really legal or not, why would I? I am not disassembling Nvidia graphic drivers to see if they stole some technology from ATI, right?  And thus I conclude, there can be no charges pressed against me in such circumstances, therefore that item is IN FACT legal to be bought, sold and operated without this "consumer" having any liability even if it turns out item was counterfeited and copyright holder does indeed try to press charges.

Saying the copyrights are no longer valid, or that it's legal to sell mame and roms you don't own, well, that's simply not true. It's not something we all have differing opinions on or anything - it's a fact and you really can't argue about it without looking silly.

Perhaps, but that would also make it that much easier for you to prove it so.

Is making IBM PC clones also illegal, but strangely allowed?

Are Amstrad CPC and/or Commodore C64 games also illegal?
Can I as actual programmer release my games to the public?

[SavannahLion]

Driver-Man are you serious?

I want to do exactly what you suggested, I want to read about it, but what, where? Show me.

Is Google not in your favorites? At least show some capability of searching for some answers on your own.

However, if you need a starting point

You are not really saying anything specific, you just keep insulting me for no reason and repeating YOUR OPINION, insisting that your opinion is better than my opinion, without any actual proof or reference to the facts and the real world.

It's hardly opinion:
http://www.copyright.gov/
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
That is fact.

Here is Nintendo's stance. Note that some of the information is true (ROMS), some is partially true (game copiers though it gets ugly in a hurry) and some is probably strictly opinion (lost jobs). Interestingly, Nintendo has carefully changed their wording regarding Emulators, probably in response to Sony vs Bleem! 1999(?) however, they did have a statement saying emulators are illegal after Coleco vs Atari 1982. So I'm not sure who tripped up on that.

This is opinion (not mine) and it is false:
"It's legal to download and use ROMS for 24 hours, after which those ROMS must be deleted."
Or something along those lines. If the site cites any code, it's probably section 107 of the copyright act (Fair Use). Nowhere in the U.S. copyright that I'm aware of has any sort of clause of this nature.

Here is a nice list of interesting lawsuits:
http://www.patentarcade.com/2009/06/updated-video-game-lawsuits.html
I suspect the list might be incomplete. There is a clarification court case defining exactly what can and can't be copied based on the durability of the media. Unfortunately, I can't, for the life of me, remember who was involved.

Please use Google for any further information or clarification.

[Driver-Man]

None of that really applies here.

Q1.) If you buy X-in-1 in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then is it illegal to operate or re-sell that PCB? YES/NO

I'd say this has no longer to do with any copyrights, as once the item is on the market like this, and has been taxed by the government, it is the consumer rights that would protect buyer/seller/re-seller from any liability. Whether the factory can be brought to court and how that varies with state or country is not important here. -- Now, please point out what copyright notice is the one that applies here? Did we not conclude that even original PCBs came without any such proof of originality, so please tell us where do we find this relevant game copyright info, let us read what it says, ok?


Q2.) Was Ultracade found guilty? YES/NO

You are being theoretical and vague, I'm trying to be practical and specific. I think people understood I want to sell MAME and ROMs, while what I'm actually saying is that all that should be FREE, so no one would be selling it. I do not apply this to all games, especially not any new or young games, just the games that are no longer distributed and whose existence is therefore threatened to fall into oblivion and be forgotten - "abandonware".

[SavannahLion]

None of that really applies here.

You didn't even click on that first link did you?

Q1.) If you buy X-in-1 in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then is it illegal to operate or re-sell that PCB? YES/NO

I'd say this has no longer to do with any copyrights, as once the item is on the market like this, and has been taxed by the government, it is the consumer rights that would protect buyer/seller/re-seller from any liability. Whether the factory can be brought to court and how that varies with state or country is not important here. -- Now, please point out what copyright notice is the one that applies here? Did we not conclude that even original PCBs came without any such proof of originality, so please tell us where do we find this relevant game copyright info, let us read what it says, ok?

The fact that a particular PCB came without proof of originality has no bearing on the copyright of that game. Once again, taxation on a product has no bearing on the copyright legality of that product. Tax laws don't even address that (I could be wrong and I would take great delight if someone proves otherwise).  I gave you the relevant copyright info. It's not my fault you're too lazy to Google for it.

As for liability on the buyer/seller/re-seller. Here, the answer is, it depends. An example would be Lik-Sang getting nailed to the wall for various copyright and patent infringements.

Anyhow, I'm done. If there is no effort shown on your part to partake in Google's mind expanding elixir then there should be no further effort on my part to point out things you should already be searching for. Such as Ultracade's lawsuit, which has some pretty in depth articles out there. Or you can ask Mr. Foley himself. I believe he visits the forum on occasion.

[SavannahLion]

Oh, I guess I should apologize if I come of sounding tart. But then again, I don't have to deal with you in RL, so... oh well.

[nitz]

I do not suggest anyone should break any laws or ignore any copyrights. Perhaps it is confusing that I pose my questions as examples set in real-world circumstances and from the first person point of view, but that's only to be more illustrative. 

Ok, but earlier you said:

Why would everyone be able to freely sell/operate 60-in-1  PCBs, and I can not my home-made 200-in-1 PC?

and

...and so, who is going to object when I operate/sell my home made "200-in-1" MAME based PC?

I guess to be fair, you didn't actually say you intended to sell PCs loaded with mame and roms, but I hope you can see how it appeared that way.

Look, I *legally* bought my JAMMA PCBs, that you all say now are actually illegal (according to something).

I get that in some sense, you *legally* bought these if you didn't know they were illegal. I'm not gonna go googling for it, but I believe many places do have some provision in the law that will not hold you responsible for buying counterfit product if it's reasonable that you could have thought it was legit. Buying them could be a bit of a grey area. Selling and manufacturing them on the other hand is definitely illegal.

Saying the copyrights are no longer valid, or that it's legal to sell mame and roms you don't own, well, that's simply not true. It's not something we all have differing opinions on or anything - it's a fact and you really can't argue about it without looking silly.

Perhaps, but that would also make it that much easier for you to prove it so.

OH COME ON! This statement really made me laugh! Do I really have to prove to you that if the mame license says you can't sell it, that makes it illegal to do so, or that people selling COPYRIGHTED material THEY DO NOT OWN is illegal? It's almost like you want a link to some official government website with an official government seal that has a detailed list of every bootleg, xx in 1 board, and permutation therof that ever existed and says legal or illegal beside each one!

Checkout the links that SavannahLion posted. I didn't look at them myself because I don't feel I need to, but I'm sure the government (which seems to be one of your main concerns) website is going to give you some accurate information.

The issue is not whether you bought a board and got an invoice or whether people who have sold such boards have been convicted or not. You seem to be saying that getting an invoice + no convictions of sellers = it must be legal. There're folks out there everyday selling pot who never get caught - doesn't make it legal (in most countries anyway). Would you need us to direct you to a website that says that's illegal?

...what I'm actually saying is that all that should be FREE, so no one would be selling it.

Mame is free. And I agree with you that roms of old games should be as well (they are available for free actually, but not in the way you're suggesting I guess). IMO The copyright laws are stupid. Stuff gets protected for decades longer than it should. But feeling the laws are stupid and getting invoices and whatnot doesn't change them.

If you're still not convinced that this stuff is illegal after all everyone has said, then 

[Driver-Man]

nitz,

C'mon, I'm not really saying those laws are not there, but they do differ from place to place, and even if not they would still be open for interpretation and subject to circumstances. I am trying to understand how all that theory plays out in practice.

Yes, I say: "buying it in retail store and getting an invoice = it IS legal to operate and re-sell". Not to manufacture, as then you would certainly be aware of copyright violation, but as a simple consumer you do not need to know, hence can not be liable. Is there any argument here that opposes this logic? Beside that I mostly agree with everything everyone else said, except that I don't see see how that relates with 'selling pot' on the street. That's the opposite, there is no invoice there, while these x-in-1 are sold in retail stores and taxed, therefore "inspected and approved" by the government.



SavannahLion,

I actually Googled quite a bit, and I did read your links, well what I thought were the important or relevant bits anyway, but you can always be more specific if you wish to avoid misunderstanding. Those are actually good links and they do answer most of my questions from the opening post, thank you. I agree with all that, but now I am talking about the point of view of an unsuspected consumer, or non-informed arcade operator, or arcade cabinet builder who plays stupid along with everyone else...

Example:
- I build arcade cabinet and buy 60-in-1 PCB to complete the machine, then sell it on auction. Would that be disrespecting anyone? Would that make me an ass? Would that hurt anyone anyhow, emotionally, financially? Would I be stupid for buying something which is free for download? Would that be illegal? Is that something you would never do, why exactly?


Question:
- People Making Nintendo Emulators and Nintendo ROMs are Helping Publishers by Making Old Games Available that are No Longer Being Sold by the Copyright Owner. This Does Not Hurt Anyone and Allows Gamers to Play Old Favorites. What's the Problem?

Nintendo:
- The problem is that it's illegal....  As a copyright owner, and creator of such famous characters, only Nintendo has the right to benefit from such valuable assets.


Nintendon't, but if they would release it to the public it would not be illegal any more, arrrgh!! That's just rotten, they would rather no one plays the games if they can not get a dollar out of it. That's like wishing your cow dies just because golden fish promised all the double would happen to your neighbor. And what is worse that little matters in practice since here we are with all these x-in-1 PCBs freely sold. It's not you and me who is profiting, but some guys in China, or wherever, and it's not our fault, but government's for letting that be imported, tho they of course do take their share on the way, so.... hey, wait a second, finally I can see this similarity with drugs!

[CheffoJeffo]

I am failing to see what the actual issue is here, other than Driver-Man doesn't seem to get that the law is the law and all he is saying is that it shouldn't be (gee, THAT's original).

It is NOT legal to operate or resell an illegal board, no matter where/how you obtained it. The situation is black and white and not open for interpretation nor subject to circumstances. It is pure folly to assume that because something is available for sale (which is all that the "sold in retail stores and taxed" means) that it is legal and does not infringe.

I see bootleg DVDs for sale all the time -- are they legal ? No and you would never think so if you have even an ounce of grey matter bouncing around inside that cavernous skull.

As far as selling an xx-in-1 cabinet and who that disrespects, it disrespects the various IP owners. I don't think that many folks here worry about disrespecting the companies that own the rights to the ROMs, but this is a MAME-friendly site, so I expect that most would be pissed off at the disrespect that it shows the MAMEDevs.

Again, same old stuff (where is Hoopz with his summary?) ... nothing new, except for the OP's determination in insisting that available for sale == legal.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

i think i feel a little dumber after reading this thread.

[Haze]

None of that really applies here.

Q1.) If you buy X-in-1 in retail shop and get an invoice for it, then is it illegal to operate or re-sell that PCB? YES/NO

I'd say this has no longer to do with any copyrights, as once the item is on the market like this, and has been taxed by the government, it is the consumer rights that would protect buyer/seller/re-seller from any liability. Whether the factory can be brought to court and how that varies with state or country is not important here. -- Now, please point out what copyright notice is the one that applies here? Did we not conclude that even original PCBs came without any such proof of originality, so please tell us where do we find this relevant game copyright info, let us read what it says, ok?

It's still an illegal product, It's illegal to resell or operate.  Ignorance is no defence.  Being taxed by the government has nothing to do with it, how were they meant to know the exact legal status of the item, that's your responsibility, just as it is when buying any other product.  If I sell and invoice you for a 'luxury powdered substance' and pay the government what they're due do think think the cops are going to be any more lenient on you when they find you reselling it on the street corner?

Q2.) Was Ultracade found guilty? YES/NO

You are being theoretical and vague, I'm trying to be practical and specific. I think people understood I want to sell MAME and ROMs, while what I'm actually saying is that all that should be FREE, so no one would be selling it. I do not apply this to all games, especially not any new or young games, just the games that are no longer distributed and whose existence is therefore threatened to fall into oblivion and be forgotten - "abandonware".

'Should be free' is your opinion, but unless the companies release them for free, or the copyrights expire, they can't be considered free.  If you want to do something about that you'll have to somehow get all copyrights shortened, or conditionally made to expire once a product has 'no commercial value'.  Until that happens (which it won't) it's still a legal minefield.  Most of the boards you're talking about are running unlicensed copies of MAME anyway, so it would still be illegal even then.  Note, these things also run Pacman / Ms Pacman / Galaga and so are in DIRECT competition with the new rereleases Namco are pushing out, that would be your biggest threat.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/24691/InDepth_Exploring_Ultracades_Alleged_Counterfeit_Arcade_Game_Racket.php

is still the latest update on Ultracade / Foley afaik.

I believe there was a previous case where they were forced to stop using unlicensed Namco property too, it's been mentioned a few times.

[Osirus23]

Your own personal moral justification of something doesn't change the law.

Many of the classic Nintendo, Arcade, etc. games ARE still being sold by the copyright owners via Virtual Console and XBLA Gameroom, so the "abandonware" (threw up in my mouth as I typed that) argument really doesn't fly anyway.

[taylormadelv]

There is a double standard when dealing with x in 1's vs full blown mames with Front Ends. Just because the games can be tidly fitted onto a small PCB and installed in almost any classic cabinet, they seem "ok" but we all know they are just as illegal as running mame.
Here's another thing to consider; operators that ran "bootleg" versions of popular games in the 80's would probably just run mame in a newer more "money making" cabinet today. What's the difference to the bootleg operator? None. They were willing to break the law back then and they still are now. The term "bootleg" feels less severe than the world "illegal" as it's used to describe mame machines. But that old hacked Ms Pacman or Frogger cabinet with a "bootleg" PCB was/is just as illegal as running the game today in mame.

[nitz]

I don't see see how that relates with 'selling pot' on the street. That's the opposite, there is no invoice there, while these x-in-1 are sold in retail stores and taxed, therefore "inspected and approved" by the government.

What, your drug dealer doesn't give you an invoice?

But seriously, I know my example was a bit simplistic and obvious, but I was just trying to make the point that just because someone sells something and doesn't get in trouble doesn't mean it's legal. And something being sold in a retail store and taxed does not mean it's inspected and approved by the government. Do you really think the government inspects every single thing that ever gets sold in a store?

C'mon, I'm not really saying those laws are not there, but they do differ from place to place, and even if not they would still be open for interpretation and subject to circumstances. I am trying to understand how all that theory plays out in practice.

Ok, I sort of get where you're coming from. Sometimes something can be against the law, but in real life has a net effect of not really being against the law. A good example of this is that where I live, it is actually against the law to smoke within 30 meters of the entrance of a public building. However, the cops don't enforce it unless people complain, and it seems that no one ever complains, so I see people doing this every day. Are they breaking the law? Technically yes, but a law is virtually meaningless if it's not enforced which I guess is the case most of the time when it comes to xx in 1 boards and the like. Maybe this is the point you're trying to make, and if so, I get it.

BUT

Yes, I say: "buying it in retail store and getting an invoice = it IS legal to operate and re-sell".

That's just not true in any country that recognizes copyright law (which is most if not all developed countries I would imagine). If you were to operate and re-sell one board, the chances of you getting caught and getting into trouble are slim to none. But don't kid yourself. It ain't legal.

When I first discovered emulation about 10 years ago, I really wanted to download a NES emulator and the roms so that I could enjoy all those old games again (I stupidly sold my NES and games in the mid '90s to buy some SNES games ). This was in the days before Nintendo started selling many of them again on the virtual console. So I just kind of thought to myself, "Well, Nintendo doesn't sell these anymore, so I could go on ebay and pay inflated prices for 10+ year old cartridges that might not even work properly, with Nintendo never seeing any of that money anyway, or I could just download the roms for free, so I'm just gonna do that!" But never for a second did I think that downloading the roms was legal. Whether or not they're still being sold or anyone is making money from them or anyone would get hurt blah blah blah is not relevant. If they're under copyright, it's illegal to deal in unlicensed copies of them. Morally however, it's not a problem IMO.

I am failing to see what the actual issue is here, other than Driver-Man doesn't seem to get that the law is the law and all he is saying is that it shouldn't be (gee, THAT's original).

You're absolutely right Cheffo! You summed up all of our rambling in one nice sentence. Reading that just made me realize that I should probably just walk away now. Thank you!

I am slowly...backing...away...from the thread now.

[Driver-Man]

It is NOT legal to operate or resell an illegal board, no matter where/how you obtained it.

It IS legal if it is taxed by the government, free to import and available in retail stores. Hello?! There are/were many products on the market that violated various copyrights, but that is nothing you are supposed to know about, and in most cases is impossible to know without disassembling or reverse engineering the thing.

You THINK it SHOULD BE illegal, perhaps you think so about alcohol too, but as long as the customs let this item pass the border and you can buy it in retail store, get invoice and pay GST, then TECHNICALLY it is LEGAL, and "technically" is all what matters in court. Where do you draw your conclusions from anyway? Can you give some other examples of illegal stuff being freely imported and sold in shops everywhere? That would be obvious contradiction, those two go together, one implies the other.

I'm not talking about whether it violates copyrights, or is bad for health, whether I like it or think how it should be, I'm simply making conclusion from what is obvious, and I'm not even saying it makes sense, it doesn't. But hey, there was once real cocaine in Coca-Cola, and that was legal for a while, or so they say.

 

The situation is black and white and not open for interpretation nor subject to circumstances. It is pure folly to assume that because something is available for sale (which is all that the "sold in retail stores and taxed" means) that it is legal and does not infringe.

I find it strange you express your assumptions with such certainty.. it's not that you may fool others, but if you keep like that you will actually make yourself believe in your own imagination. -- Look, the part of the reason you pay taxes is so your government will take care of you and not allow illegal items be available on the legal market. If it is available in stores and therefore taxed by the government, then it is AUTOMATICALLY legal. That's kind of the definition of what "legal" means.

LEGAL ITEM = FREE TO IMPORT, AVAILABLE IN RETAIL STORES ....hello?!?!

I see bootleg DVDs for sale all the time -- are they legal ? No and you would never think so if you have even an ounce of grey matter bouncing around inside that cavernous skull.

Where in the world do you see similarity?

Are those DVDs available in retail stores and can you get an invoice for it?