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Author Topic: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!  (Read 43204 times)

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abaraba

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Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« on: November 12, 2010, 04:02:30 am »
At first I thought everyone on the Internet copied one the same article about "Yie Ar Kung-Fu", and with it the same mistake about how many buttons this game uses.

But, I just saw a photo of the original control panel and there were indeed only two buttons.

However, if you play the game in MAME and try to use the third button you may notice it is fully functional. So, if the 1st button is "punch modifier" and the 2nd button is "kick modifier", then the third button is "jump modifier", and is quite useful I might add.


Does anyone, or everyone, already know about this, and what's the story behind it?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 04:05:54 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 11:23:47 am »
weird, i got years of playing yiear kungfu, and always use only 2 butons, never saw an original cab with 3, to jump i use the joystick, so i wonderhow the 3 butons setup would  feel like during play time.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 11:50:41 am »
It's a hoax I tell you!

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 02:00:05 pm »
Does anyone, or everyone, already know about this, and what's the story behind it?

I heard about it a long time ago.  I don't know when it came out but everybody always said, "It's the new model Yie Ar."

 ;D

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 07:56:39 pm »
weird, i got years of playing yiear kungfu, and always use only 2 butons, never saw an original cab with 3, to jump i use the joystick, so i wonderhow the 3 butons setup would  feel like during play time.

Without 3rd button I can barely pass "Star", while with it I can almost beat all of them. It is extremely useful since with it you can do shorter and longer jumps, and I find jumps are critical to beating most of the opponents, at least the way I play it.


Why do you wonder, why just not try it out?

Without 3rd button you have only two kinds of jump, with it you have 10, or so.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 08:21:10 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 11:19:23 pm »
I loved this game as a kid.

That list said that there is no time limit, but there is.  That's how I beat half of the harder opponents, just got a few hits on them and jumped around for five minutes.  The music picks up then the round times out, and you win.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2010, 01:59:31 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

To be fair ... I have yet to see a piece of actual documentation that mentions a 3rd button, including the actual manual.

I suggest that we let the MAMEDevs, even the baby ones, decide what is best for MAME, as opposed to opening discussion up to the the mob of whiny bitches who don't do their research and then complain about things that they get for free and play illegally.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 02:37:30 pm »
Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality.

 If someone wants to virtually wire the other button in, as was originally deigned to do so... then so be it.  Its not much different than the ability to use the Cheat engine... except that is actually MORE LEGIT than a cheat... as a cheat is a hack that wouldnt be as simple as two wires feeding onto the pcb.

 Another example of this atrocity... was the decision to eliminate stereo sound from certain games just because the cabinets were released with mono speaker setups.  The game itself outputs stereo, and the music was designed for stereo.. .and any Op could have easily rewired the cab in seconds to get that Stereo sound.  (or put the PCB in a cab that had stereo speakers)

 The choice to disallow it is pathetic, and has no good reasoning behind it.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2010, 03:49:51 pm »
I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA.

So, unless I am wrong about the accuracy of the emulation (which I doubt), disconnecting the interface for a button for which there was no interface (check the pinouts), is, to my mind, EXACTLY how it exists in reality.

The childish whining about it elevates the whole thing a new level of dooshiness.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2010, 08:10:24 pm »
Interesting topic! I think they should have left it in there, and it would be interesting to see if anyone ever wired the extra button on dedicated hardware.

Very possible that Konami just left it undocumented because it was an easier conversion without it. One and two button games were much more common. Its hurting nothing to be there and actually emulates the original hardware, even if nobody used it.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2010, 08:16:07 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

To be fair ... I have yet to see a piece of actual documentation that mentions a 3rd button, including the actual manual.

I suggest that we let the MAMEDevs, even the baby ones, decide what is best for MAME, as opposed to opening discussion up to the the mob of whiny bitches who don't do their research and then complain about things that they get for free and play illegally.

 :droid



It's called public scrutiny and criticism, it is a good thing.


You believe there are some 'MAME developer' gatherings and voting when such decisions are made? Do you believe all the other MAME developers approve, or even know of all the changes being made? What if that guy Luigi is some crazy kid who made these changes without consulting anyone and you now live with it because no one in public criticize or questions such decisions, because everyone believes "MAME developers" know what are they doing and is inappropriate to criticize?


Who makes and approves these decisions? All the MAME developers, or perhaps just a small group of people who might very well have different opinion than everyone else, including the rest, the majority, of MAME developers?

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Siris

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2010, 08:43:17 pm »
Hey abaraba,

Seriously you are the one here that sounds like the child/moron/crazy kid!

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason Konami did not make the third button available as part of the final game is because it made the game too easy? You said your self with it you can beat just about all the enemies. Arcade games were made to earn money not to be easy.

Mame emulates the games as close as possible to the way the game was in the arcade and the way the manufacturer intended it to be played. Just because you suck at the game without what is essentially a cheat doesn't mean you have the right to call any dev. names for correcting improper documentation.

Here is a link to the manual for the game it's obvious that Konami did NOT intend there to be a JUMP button so please stop crying and calling names about Mame's emulation.

http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/Y/YieArKung-Fu.pdf
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 08:50:58 pm by Siris »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 08:50:38 pm »
I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA.

So, unless I am wrong about the accuracy of the emulation (which I doubt), disconnecting the interface for a button for which there was no interface (check the pinouts), is, to my mind, EXACTLY how it exists in reality.

The childish whining about it elevates the whole thing a new level of dooshiness.

Your mistake is to think MAME emulates "cabinets".

Cabinet is wood, sticks, monitor, wires and artwork. PCB is integrated electronics, it's separate, independent and exchangeable part, it is what MAME emulates. Further, PCB can be split into "hardware" and "software" part, MAME only needs to emulate the "hardware" part, and the "software", the actual game application, should not be changed, ever.


Did they mess with "software" or "hardware" part to disable this 3rd button? The real question here is whether the original PCB has actual output pin for the 3rd button, can it be practically wired, or is this 3rd button only supported in software though either way this functionality should be preserved, one way or another.



By the way, last night I ordered the actual "Yie Ar Kung-Fu" PCB from QuarterArcade.com, plus "Popeye" and "Karate Champ"... maybe I am mistaken, but $40 for each seem like extremely low price for these three great games. I wish I knew about those guys before, I thought the only place to buy these things were on-line auctions. Is there any other, maybe even cheaper, place like QuarterArcade selling (working/tested) classic arcade PCBs?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 08:58:21 pm »
Hey abaraba,

Seriously you are the one here that sounds like the child/moron/crazy kid!

No, it is you who failed to understand what we are talking about.

Does that make you a moron, crazy kid?


Xiaou2:
- "Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality."

Agree, disagree?


MAME are not porting or re-making these games, manual is not electronics blue-print of the PCB, nor is it the assembler listing of the game application, hence is completely irrelevant for the emulation, can you grasp that?

« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:00:08 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2010, 09:08:06 pm »
Mame obviously does emulate the third button which you figured out how to configure and then you started whining about Mame not making it default.

BTW your idea of what MAME is is terribly flawed as Xiaou2 will attest to but hey go ahead and take it up with the Devs. on the mameworld boards if you like. I'm sure you will get about as far as he did.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:11:21 pm by Siris »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2010, 09:08:37 pm »
Except that its not improper emulation, If the function exist in the code of the game.

 Its merely a hardware connect or disconnect.

 Same for the Stereo sound in a games Code that exists, and is OUTPUT.  Just because the actual cabinet the pcb was housed in didnt have 2 speakers (cost cutting), or it was wired as mono... does not change the fact that the game was designed with stereo sound... and could EASILY be hooked up by anyone, by hooking on to the output pins.

 If the game PCB is outputting stereo, then for a mame dev to take away the ability to hear it, shows that they are not representing the hardware accurately.

 Just because some corporate dirtbag wanted to cut cost with mono speakers, does not mean that games truly designed intent should not be able to be experienced.

 How difficult would it be to add such options to the cheat engine?  I doubt it would take much effort at all.  Its just pure analism / ocd, without any real understanding / respect for the creativity for the games themselves.

 While Im not saying I agree with cheating on Yie Ar, as they did decide to remove the button (unless it was merely a way to make it easier to test levels)... it IS part of the history of the game. (and it is still part of the game)  And all such history should be preserved and experienced at will of the user.

 As long as the user understands that the 3rd button or stereo sound was not the way the game was finally presented, there is no harm at all in leaving the user to the exact things that they could experience if they owned the PCBs + a soldering iron.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2010, 09:17:28 pm »
Also, anyone who uses the term ---meecrob---, is low extremely low class, and out the think about the meaning of the words that fly out of their mouths.

 A lot of woman would be extremely upset to hear or read such a word being used as an insult.  Its simple feminine hygiene.  Your girls and wives probably use it without you even knowing it.  It does not mean a woman is 'dirty' for using it... and it has no basis as being used as a negative insult.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2010, 11:16:26 pm »
Mame obviously does emulate the third button which you figured out how to configure and then you started whining about Mame not making it default.

No, not any more.

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.


Ok, so now that this has been brought to your attention, again... what do you think about it? Did they not break their own rules with this one?


Quote
BTW your idea of what MAME is is terribly flawed as Xiaou2 will attest to but hey go ahead and take it up with the Devs. on the mameworld boards if you like. I'm sure you will get about as far as he did.

I think Xiaou2 shares the same point of view here as me. I think you too agree with us, only you spoke without realizing this functionality was actually thrown away.

...
The thing with mono/stereo sound I did not know about, that is far worse than yiear's 3rd button, it's hideous. It seems baby developers started to believe they are supposed to emulate "cabinets", as opposed to actual PCBs. I don't know what say on that, I'm laughing.... and, I'm not whining, I kind of don't care about it, I stopped updating MAME about the time they went from DOS to Windows.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 11:18:52 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2010, 02:20:12 am »
No, you are whining!

That is the whole point of your argument.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2010, 04:34:51 am »
No, you are whining!

That is the whole point of your argument.

Do you think he's whining because of what he's saying?...or because of the wording he's using?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2010, 04:50:43 am »
Siris,
Ok, I'm whining, what's your point? I'm not arguing, I am asking you for your opinion first - do you think they made a good decision to remove this functionality based on 'operators manual', or not? I also ditto Gray_Area question, it is not quite clear why are you "against" me. If you are just mad at me for my insults to "baby developers", then you are right, it was completely unnecessary, perhaps that's what you call "whining", nevertheless I still stand behind my words. What now, we still don't know the important part - who's right, and who is wrong?


Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to answer this question:

Q.) does original 'Yie Ar Kung-Fu'  PCB have a pin for the 3rd button, and would just additional wire on a harness be enough to "unlock" this functionality (Easter Egg), or perhaps it would require some electrical modification on the PCB itself, and maybe it is not practically quite possible to use this functionality with actual PCB at all.

I also want to know at what point was this 3rd button abandoned by Konami... were they ever planning for it to be in the game or is it just some hack programmers did for fun. Without this sort of information we can't properly argue about whether the decision to throw out this functionality from MAME has any reasonable justification behind it, or not.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 05:08:38 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2010, 07:46:58 am »
Luigi is not a MAME developer, he's an external contributor like you or anybody else posting here.

If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

That's how things work.

Just seems like another excuse to have a go at the developers to me.

(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

There should probably be an additional layer of abstraction but that's a significant amount of work which would touch every single part of MAME, and right now nobody on the team seems to have the motivation to even reparent a couple of sets that need reparenting never mind write completely new sub-systems.  It's dead, as you might say, and yes, being bitched at for every last change which isn't just refactoring something no doubt has something to do with that)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:29:51 am by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 08:18:01 am »
Except that its not improper emulation, If the function exist in the code of the game.

 Its merely a hardware connect or disconnect.

 Same for the Stereo sound in a games Code that exists, and is OUTPUT.  Just because the actual cabinet the pcb was housed in didnt have 2 speakers (cost cutting), or it was wired as mono... does not change the fact that the game was designed with stereo sound... and could EASILY be hooked up by anyone, by hooking on to the output pins.

 If the game PCB is outputting stereo, then for a mame dev to take away the ability to hear it, shows that they are not representing the hardware accurately.

 Just because some corporate dirtbag wanted to cut cost with mono speakers, does not mean that games truly designed intent should not be able to be experienced.

 How difficult would it be to add such options to the cheat engine?  I doubt it would take much effort at all.  Its just pure analism / ocd, without any real understanding / respect for the creativity for the games themselves.

 While Im not saying I agree with cheating on Yie Ar, as they did decide to remove the button (unless it was merely a way to make it easier to test levels)... it IS part of the history of the game. (and it is still part of the game)  And all such history should be preserved and experienced at will of the user.

 As long as the user understands that the 3rd button or stereo sound was not the way the game was finally presented, there is no harm at all in leaving the user to the exact things that they could experience if they owned the PCBs + a soldering iron.

Then code it up ---smurfette---.  Seriously, either code it up and be a part of the solution or quit bitching about those who don't do what you want with their time.  You ---smurfette--- and whine but never do anything to help fix the code that you freak out about.  You don't have constructive criticism.  You ---smurfette--- without offering to get involved to fix it.

And if you can't code, then why ---smurfette--- to Haze or anyone about how they are ---smurfing--- things up?  At least they have the talent to try and it doesn't matter if they agree with your agenda or not.  It's their time, they can do what they want.

Before the mob decides that Mame is wrong, has anyone actually seen documentation stating that they did something that is incorrect or are a few people trying to bully their way into stuff?

X, whip out your nazi analogies now.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  :troll:

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:28:38 am by Hoopz »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 08:32:55 am »
Shades of the Belligerent Kool-Aid Man ... telling everybody else the facts not actually having worked with the elements in question.

RTFW if you want to find vendors.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 08:42:20 am »
Also, anyone who uses the term ---meecrob---, is low extremely low class, and out the think about the meaning of the words that fly out of their mouths.

 A lot of woman would be extremely upset to hear or read such a word being used as an insult.  Its simple feminine hygiene.  Your girls and wives probably use it without you even knowing it.  It does not mean a woman is 'dirty' for using it... and it has no basis as being used as a negative insult.

I have a wife, 3 sisters and a daughter.

I KNOW what a ---meecrob--- is.

I also know what a Xiaou2 is.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 08:43:31 am »
 :laugh2:
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 09:02:50 am »
Luigi is not a MAME developer

Neither are you.


and that is relevant how?  I have no desire to be an official part of the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  My point is that people are bitching about the dev team over a change which didn't even come from the dev team.  People are also bitching about the dev team because apparently changes from outside the dev team are always ignored / overlooked.

The very same people are bitching about both cases!

See the issue?

Anyway, as I said, from where I'm sitting the project looks stone dead, you have your wish.  (and FYI given that I still have an account and access to the official, private MAME SVN server your claim is stretching it anyway)

To my knowledge nobody is working on anything interesting, there have been no noteworthy changes in the last 5 days, and relatively simple tasks aren't even being performed so good luck in trying to convince anybody to make major functional changes adding new & useful features.  A feeler mail out to the actual dev team yielded no results, so I'd say at this point it's pretty much up to the community to further the project which based on posts here you should be more than capable of doing.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 09:27:24 am by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2010, 12:27:40 pm »
So what you are saying, is that its too hard to actually preserve games as they should be preserved... and so just forget about it.

 And then you are trying to say, that because people who have passion for these games gets angered at mames "Pick and Choose"  attitudes of Importance,
that they will get all bent out of shape and quit.

 
Quote
My point is that people are bitching about the dev team over a change which didn't even come from the dev team.

 The decision to accept that, was from the Devs, as was the choice to make certain games mono, even though they had a stereo feed that could be easily tapped into with a real pcb.

 Its understandable that we do not want people to mistake that the 3rd button was part of the experience.  And geez, lets not forget to drill it into peoples minds that some companies wanted to skimp on speakers, and made a stereo game mono. However... when you open up ANY mame game, go into the controller options... you are barraged with more control options than existed in the game.
 
 Who would know, without looking at a games manual, what the game really used?  Is it optical, analog, or digital? Mame can use them all - even if the game didnt intend that... which is ok... BUT, it should be in some way differentiated so that the user understands what is what.
 
 You could solve this as easy as changing the font color of things that were not original to the cabinet.  You could add it to the Cheat engine (it being things like the 3rd button).  You could enforce the controller defined rules (trackball = mouse).   You could add a sub menu under controls as "ALT Controls" (Alternate control configuration).


 Mames biggest problem seem like there is little forethought about the future.  Its why entire sections of the main code are re-coded over and over again...  and yet still, there are things which dont work, dont fit, arnt accessible, arnt being preserved / preserved well... etc.

 People who love these games are not going to be happy about loss or lack of.  Heck, even developers of the ORIGINAL MACHINES, would be ticked off at things like "changed game to mono sound to better emulate the released cabinet".
If the very guy who composed the stereo tracks in a game has no option to hear his masterworks, how do you think he would react & feel?
 
 Mame solution:  If you dont like it, learn to code like us.  

 Which is utter BS, and everyone, including the Devs know it.
Especially when most of the precious PCBs come from fellow game loving donators, the actual game developers, collectors, etc.

 Much of the stuff that people ask for is dead simple compared to the challenges that a Dev has encountered trying to emulate something.  Maybe it would take them 15 minutes to fix / install.  Which again, is another reason why people get upset.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 12:33:00 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2010, 12:54:35 pm »
That is complete and utter ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- Xiaou2!

The entire point of an open project like MAME is that everybody *can* contribute. If you can't contribute, other than to have repeated hissy fits, then STFU or learn how to contribute.

The people who are contributing are doing FAR more than the people who whine and ---smurfette---. Even a non-MAME guy like me can see the obvious truth of that statement. Haze and I don't agree on certain issues (or, we could, if there was a legal and economical way to accomodate what he will view as my transgressions), but I would never deign to cross over and criticize him for what he has done, unless I had walked that same path.

The problem that you have is that the nice folks who ACTUALLY DO THE WORK won't do what you say simply because you say it.

We have both contributed to the dumping projects (which, other than coding, is about the only way the rest of us can contribute to MAME), and I expect that I have contributed more in that regard than you have (despite my being low class  :afro:). The difference is that I don't expect them to do what I say any more than I expect saint to do what I say because I contribute here.

You will be the first person, and be 100% correct in saying so, that preserving the interfaces (e.g. the actual controls used) is important. Then, in the same breath, you are happy to ---smurfette--- about something as trivial as MONO vs STEREO or this stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade (I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought ... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion).

You, supposedly, managed an arcade.

As such, you should understand the economics of the business. Most games released in the time period you are talking about were conversions, not dedicated cabinets. The conversion standard was JAMMA, which did not include stereo.

WTF are you bitching about something that was never experienced by 99.5% of people in arcades, including yourself ?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2010, 01:01:41 pm »
The decision was made with the evidence presented, as is the case with all external submissions.

and yes, if you want to change MAME, then it helps to learn how to program for it, this isn't rocket science, the actual devs have had to do the same.

Rewriting due to lack of foresight? strange, just before you were complaining about Mamedev not getting things done due to paranoia etc.  In reality Mamedev have been very good at getting things done, and has at various times outgrown the core code there to support it; it's still FAR more advanced than any other emulator out there in terms of core flexibility and expandability and most of the current limitations were ones nobody could have predicted 10+ years ago.

I imagine that most of the problems you perceive to be problems are of minimal concern to the devs now, let alone 10 years ago when the systems concerned were conceived.

The fact is, as you've been told many times, if you want something specific done you really need to do it yourself.  Why you seem to think this rule doesn't apply to you because you can't program I don't know.  It applies to every single person involved with the project.

In all your ramblings I've never seen you make a single valid, informed point, not even once.

People will complain either way, and as a result, it just gets blanked out, or the actual devs give up trying to make any changes in the knowledge that whatever they do somebody will complain at them.  This results to endless refactoring, with no REAL progress being made at all.  That's the state the project is in now.

You seem to want things both ways, to perfectly suit what you want / need which doesn't really agree with the majority.  It simply doesn't work like that, which is exactly why if that's what you want, then it's up to you to do it.

Anyway, the first point was the most important one, and, based on the evidence presented here, I'd say it was easy to understand why Luigi was able to present a good case for his change being applied.  If you wish to reverse it, as I've said, provide an equal countermeasure and submit a change to reverse it, or, come up with a better solution and implement it (rather than just telling other people to implement it)  It's a democratic process, and things are judged on their values and the case presented.

*cue more wah wah wah I'm not a programmer lines*

You really, really don't seem to get it.

Right now, the members of the dev team I talk to on a regular basis are pretty much fed up of everything, including the community, so, the community can do what the **** they want, on their own to improve things, and see how far that gets them without a ton of infighting because believe me, if all the changes you want made were implemented you'd get just as many people bitching at you because they want to use MAME with a standard PC and a keyboard, and can't develop or test anything properly anymore because it's overloaded with hacks for very specific use cases.

http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future is a prime example of what happens if a developer spends excessive time in trying to please the community, in the end, it gets them nowhere.  He added endless functions that _he_ didn't actually need, and yet still people bitched at him and used other emulators, despite bsnes offering all the requested functions, and a far superior level of SNES emulation.  In the end, he's jettisoned the lot of them so that he can concentrate on what he actually cares about; emulating the SNES.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:14:55 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2010, 01:12:27 pm »
While I hate to hear what Haze has to say about the effects of the community on the Dev team, it seems, in my mind, to be a parallel to what is happening in the "real" coinop collector world.

Those who "can't do" ---smurfette---.

Those who "can do" are tired of the bitching.

Not exactly a surprise.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2010, 01:22:03 pm »
Well the simple fact is that the bitching happens *whatever* decision is made.

If people want a MAME that's customized to their exact needs they have to make it themselves because there are too many people who want different things, and too many very specific cases which will require very specific hacks for half the things that are requested.  It's impossible for all permutations to be supported in the mainline.

Couple this with no devs actually working on anything right now, and all the bitching isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

MAME needs a new dev team.  The current one appears to have taken the project as far as they can / want to, bitching at them to take it further won't work.  I can honestly say that in 10 years I've never seen the project look so dead and this is despite the community pumping more money than ever into things like the Dumping Union to buy rare boards, even members of the Dumping Union are becoming frustrated because so few people on the team are making any effort to look at what's being dumped.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:31:38 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2010, 01:30:50 pm »
You just spent 20 minutes writing a reply that you Know is highly flawed.

 Instead of acknowledging that there can be a solution for both ways, you insist that it has to be one way or the other... when in fact you KNOW that BS.

 Also, that 20 minutes could have been been put to making a simple text color change on the 3rd button, to signify that it wasnt part of the Cabinet, yet allow its functionality.

 And or putting an on/off switch on the game(s) that the stereo sound exists on, in the cheat menu.

 If i had a programmers brain, I would have long since ran circles around people like yourself, and actually got much more depth of preservation put into place.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2010, 01:32:50 pm »
You just spent 20 minutes writing a reply that you Know is highly flawed.

 Instead of acknowledging that there can be a solution for both ways, you insist that it has to be one way or the other... when in fact you KNOW that BS.

 Also, that 20 minutes could have been been put to making a simple text color change on the 3rd button, to signify that it wasnt part of the Cabinet, yet allow its functionality.

 And or putting an on/off switch on the game(s) that the stereo sound exists on, in the cheat menu.

 If i had a programmers brain, I would have long since ran circles around people like yourself, and actually got much more depth of preservation put into place.


I could have done?  That's news to me.  I don't know how to do either of those things within the MAME architecture, nor am I especially motivated to learn how because neither bothers me even remotely; I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.

If you had a programmers brain you probably wouldn't be making such a complete fool of yourself here, assuming things are a lot easier to implement / change than they actually are.  You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Even something like the code to support guns is an absolute support nightmare, as different manufacturers use different standards, no devs can actually test the code, and specific hacks are needed all over the place due to weird behavior, and people expecting non-gun (analog sticks pointing at a screen) to work with actual guns.  I wouldn't be surprised if the temptation was there to rip it out completely.  Start applying that logic to every possibly thing in MAME and you just end up with code that you can't maintain, and want to close your eyes and wish would go away, so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:42:25 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2010, 01:44:56 pm »
Quote
I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.
And that is the problem.  People like you who do not understand the value of real preservation.  Half-Ass everything.

Quote
You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Actually no, Ive tried to learn.  But I dont have the kind of mind that excels at it.  We all have out limitations in life, and Im very realistic about what I can and can not do - even though I have tried in my past.

 I could say the same thing about people with Art.  "Ohh, the reason you cant draw a good picture is cause your too lazy".  But that would be complete BS.  Being an artist is not merely a set of rules and practice.  Artists think and see things differently than other types of minds... and as such, there are some things that just cant be taught or developed to anywhere near the same level by people who are not of that mindtype.

 Your limited perspective and complete ignorance blinds you to the reality that really exists.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2010, 01:50:46 pm »
Quote
I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.
And that is the problem.  People like you who do not understand the value of real preservation.  Half-Ass everything.

Quote
You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Actually no, Ive tried to learn.  But I dont have the kind of mind that excels at it.  We all have out limitations in life, and Im very realistic about what I can and can not do - even though I have tried in my past.

Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?  I don't know how to make the chances you want, they don't concern me, I have no reason to look into making them apart from you demanding I do so.  I'm happy to have played my role.

I could just as easily say your efforts to learn to program were half-ass.

I told you, if you want the changes made that you suggest, you need a NEW dev team.  Nicola took the project as far as he could.  I took the project as far as I could, now Aaron has taken it as far as he can IMHO.  The problem is that unlike when I took over from Nicola, and Aaron took over from me, Aaron doesn't really have much of a team left.

The fact that you're willing to write off the tremendous amount of work that has gone into MAME as half-ass and sit here calling myself and other developers who have dedicated years of our free time to working on it 'blind' shows exactly how much we should value your opinion, and gratefulness for the things that are done and how important the work that HAS been done is important to overall preservation picture.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:04:18 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2010, 01:52:17 pm »
Its funny how you go from the complexity of "change text color" to Lightgun.

 But whatever.. anyone can see right through that bs.

Quote
so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.

 Strange, cause lightguns do work in mame, as do all the other things in it, that have been working for some time.

 However, the problem is not about dual choice of controls... its about the ways in which they are programmed in.  If mames input system wasnt such a mess, it would be a lot more maintainable.  Less resembling hacks, and much more structured.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2010, 01:56:24 pm »
Its funny how you go from the complexity of "change text color" to Lightgun.

 But whatever.. anyone can see right through that bs.

Quote
so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.

 Strange, cause lightguns do work in mame, as do all the other things in it, that have been working for some time.

 However, the problem is not about dual choice of controls... its about the ways in which they are programmed in.  If mames input system wasnt such a mess, it would be a lot more maintainable.  Less resembling hacks, and much more structured.


Well to me, changing the colour of text in some core menu is just as much of a big task as the lightgun support, because both are areas of the codebase I know nothing about.  Again, your ignorance is showing through.  Text colour changes would probably involve significant changes to the UI rendering system, as well as the inputport system, both of which are areas of the code I don't touch because they don't concern my work on the project at all.

As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

I've already said another level of abstraction would help.  I've told you that there is nobody to code this.  The MAME input system is fine for 99.99% of users tho, so, apart from demand once again that I do the work for you, and insulting me for not doing it, what are you going to do?

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:06:49 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2010, 02:01:21 pm »
If i had only had a programmers brain



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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2010, 02:16:42 pm »
Quote
Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?
 

 You said you cant, because you have no interest.. Not because you didnt have the technical ability.

 If you asked me to draw a picture, and I said I cant draw people.. I only draw cars.  Then that would be the similar.  However, in my case, I would have the drive to try to preserve - so would make that attempts to draw something I was not used to drawing.  Someone should do it, and if not me, then who else?

 To me, the insult has been that people dont care about the games they try to preserve.  And so yeah, I get offensive about it.  Especially when I get replies like "Learn to Program".

Quote
I have no reason to look into making them apart from you demanding I do so.

 The reason should be for preserving games history in complete.  It should have no bearing on what I or anyone else wants...  But what Should be.  In fact, both the items Im talking about are least of what Id like to see in mame.  Its just a principle of preservation efforts, and how things are failing.

Quote
I could just as easily say your efforts to learn to program were half-ass.

- You could, but then you would have to run test on my brain, and eventually you would find out that I was in fact crippled compared to your own brain.  Like comparing a man who runs marathons, to a man missing a leg.  Yeah, he can hobble/slide, but it would take him 5 years to get to the finish line "IF" he devoted every resource available for all that time to that particular goal.

 To call that man half-assed because he couldnt compare is completely unfair in an argument... and is downright poor in taste and in the nature of realism.

 I understand logic and structure... but I cant talk computer language.  I cant do simple math without counting on my fingers. I have horrible memory, and am a very slow learner.  These things I have been born with, and Ive fought 10x as hard in my life to do the same things that others like yourself can do with almost no effort at all.

Quote
I told you, if you want the changes made that you suggest, you need a NEW dev team.  Nicola took the project as far as he could.  I took the project as far as I could, now Aaron has taken it as far as he can IMHO.

 You make assumptions for Aaron now?   Either way, you could be right.  But, that does not mean I, and others dont have the right to be upset about it.  Its the simple reality of it all.

Quote
The fact that you're willing to write off the tremendous amount of work that has gone into MAME as half-ass and sit here calling myself and other developers who have dedicated years of our free time to working on it 'blind'

 Dont Twist my words.  I said you were blind for thinking a legless man could run a marathon.  If you want to win an argument, then be honest.  If you dont, you only look like a tool and a fool.

 Nobody denies the vast great work done by the devs, including you.  They have accomplished many great things that everyone loves and appreciates.  However, that does not change the big picture.  That things that need preserving are being lost every day due to problems in the ways things are being handled.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2010, 02:26:11 pm »
Quote
Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?
 

 You said you cant, because you have no interest.. Not because you didnt have the technical ability.

 If you asked me to draw a picture, and I said I cant draw people.. I only draw cars.  Then that would be the similar.  However, in my case, I would have the drive to try to preserve - so would make that attempts to draw something I was not used to drawing.  Someone should do it, and if not me, then who else?

 To me, the insult has been that people dont care about the games they try to preserve.  And so yeah, I get offensive about it.  Especially when I get replies like "Learn to Program".

I'm one person, I have no interest in learning how these sub-systems work in MAME.  I care about performing my role, which does not include that.  Again, you seem to be trying to demand I work on areas of the code I've never had any interest in working on, am completely unfamiliar with, and would probably do a shoddy job of updating.

You will always get the reply 'Learn to Program' because that's exactly what everybody else involved with the project has had to do, and is effectively what you're telling me to do.  Just because I can 'program' doesn't mean I have any idea how some parts of MAME work.

I care about figuring out how things work, how CPUs are hooked up, how graphics are generated, and what the game code expects.  This is what I'm good at.  The project is meant to be a TEAM effort, simply demanding that people work on everything is completely unreasonable.  This is no different to your argument about marathons.

I'm playing my role in the preservation of these things.  You're doing.... nothing?  but are somehow trying to suggest that I'm not a good enough job


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:33:39 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2010, 02:33:21 pm »
Quote
As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

Quote
The MAME input system is fine for 99.99%

 Firstly, lightgun games are what Saved the arcades from going bankrupt.  They consistently got a lot of gameplay.  They also were on many consoles.  How many people didnt have an NES gun and play Duckhunt?  How many people have never played Area 51 in the arcades? 

 DO you REALLY think that people would be happy if there was not an option for real lightgun interfaces?  You make the ASSumption, that just because you dont have, like or want a lightgun... that 99% of the game playing world does not care about them too.   Its completely off-base.

 The simple fact is that the majority of people who use mame feel like they are stepping on eggshells, and dont bother voicing their opinions.


 The main problem with lightguns has been in the hardware.  The manufacturers have put out horrible quality initially (actlabs).  Yet the LCDTopguns do work with very good accuracy (tho, they require you to stand much further away from the screen than you may like).  There are other lightgun options as well, that work similarly to the Wii... tho that is not my cup of tea, because its not arcade correct.

 Barring lightguns, there are many people who use spinners and trackballs, and all other sorts of controllers.  Well more than you think.  In fact, search this site and see how many control panels have more than just the standard happs 8way.  (And this site isnt even half of whats out there... nor are most of the projects people do on this site)

 AND, even if people dont have the controller today... they may Intend to have one in the future... IF mame supports it, and If it is available to be purchased.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2010, 02:35:20 pm »
Quote
As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

Quote
The MAME input system is fine for 99.99%

 Firstly, lightgun games are what Saved the arcades from going bankrupt.  They consistently got a lot of gameplay.  They also were on many consoles.  How many people didnt have an NES gun and play Duckhunt?  How many people have never played Area 51 in the arcades?  

 DO you REALLY think that people would be happy if there was not an option for real lightgun interfaces?  You make the ASSumption, that just because you dont have, like or want a lightgun... that 99% of the game playing world does not care about them too.   Its completely off-base.

 The simple fact is that the majority of people who use mame feel like they are stepping on eggshells, and dont bother voicing their opinions.


 The main problem with lightguns has been in the hardware.  The manufacturers have put out horrible quality initially (actlabs).  Yet the LCDTopguns do work with very good accuracy (tho, they require you to stand much further away from the screen than you may like).  There are other lightgun options as well, that work similarly to the Wii... tho that is not my cup of tea, because its not arcade correct.

 Barring lightguns, there are many people who use spinners and trackballs, and all other sorts of controllers.  Well more than you think.  In fact, search this site and see how many control panels have more than just the standard happs 8way.  (And this site isnt even half of whats out there... nor are most of the projects people do on this site)

 AND, even if people dont have the controller today... they may Intend to have one in the future... IF mame supports it, and If it is available to be purchased.


so we're back to this ASSumption thing... I'm really surprised saint hasn't just banned you yet.  You've been presented with reasonable arguments, and resorted to just plain insults.

I know of precisely 0 people who use lightguns with MAME in person, as opposed to countless who use it with a keyboard and mouse.  I don't believe any of the active dev team own any guns at all.  This isn't an assumption.

You're right, the hardware has been horrible, and people have been trying to use guns on games which aren't even suitable for guns.  Most arcade 'gun' games of the 90s aren't gun games at all.  The end result of trying to support them is endless bitching because it doesn't work properly with crap hardware (or can't work, because they're not gun games), which has the end result of making the people involved wish they hadn't bothered at all.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:39:53 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2010, 02:51:58 pm »
Quote
The project is meant to be a TEAM effort, simply demanding that people work on everything is completely unreasonable

 Firstly, Im not Demanding anything.  Im simply Voicing my opinions about the end results of the effort in preservation.

 As you say, its a Team effort... and if that means that nobody on the team is working on a certain area... either you all should take parts of that work and divy it up... or that area isnt going to improve.   And if that is the case... Which it is... then you cant expect people to be happy with the end result... and will have opinions similar or exactly like the ones I post... even if they are not voiced.

Quote
I know of precisely 0 people who use lightguns with MAME in person, as opposed to countless who use it with a keyboard and mouse.  This isn't an assumption.

 And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

 AND, if mame didnt put all its 'optional' inputs into the 'main input' windows, people would realize that T2 wasnt a lighgun game.  And, if people are told that T2 shouldnt be controlled with a lightgun, and if they wanted that they should 'learn how to program'... that would be the end of it right?  :P   I guess mame team just got tired of the emails?

 And btw - I also own T2 guns, and just about every other controller type that has ever been conceived of.  Im also not the only one.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2010, 02:55:09 pm »
It's a real shame this initially interesting thread has descended into a flame war. Some people here are being way too sensitive.

I'm sure all of us recognise the huge amount of work and talent that has gone into creating MAME and appreciate it. It really doesn't need to be said as it's self-evident. But that doesn't mean we should feel inhibited from speaking out when we feel the MAME developers have made a mistake. On the contrary. If we don't give them feedback then how are the faults in the program going to be identified? Ultimately we all want the same thing which is for MAME to be as good as it can possibly be.

Broadly speaking, I agree with abaraba and Xiaou2. It makes no sense to disable the third button if the hardware (and software) supports it. If people don't want to use the third button then it could easily be disabled by changing the keymapping settings.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:07:05 pm by Grasshopper »
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2010, 03:00:19 pm »
And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

Sorry, you're just some forum troll, I don't know you in person, to my knowledge I've never met you, not even once.

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:02:48 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2010, 03:13:13 pm »
And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

Sorry, you're just some forum troll, I don't know you in person, to my knowledge I've never met you, not even once.

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

Quote
As you say, its a Team effort... and if that means that nobody on the team is working on a certain area... either you all should take parts of that work and divy it up... or that area isnt going to improve.   And if that is the case... Which it is... then you cant expect people to be happy with the end result... and will have opinions similar or exactly like the ones I post... even if they are not voiced.

and again this is where you seem to be confusing MAME for some commercial product, with actual deadlines (and even in commercial products features get dropped _all the time_ if there is nobody to work on them)

you're right, that area isn't going to improve, and no amount of bitching will change that.  Just because the overall goal is preservation and documentation of the systems doesn't mean you're going to get devs bending over and working outside the parts of the code they're comfortable with to achieve that.  You *can't* just split the workload, the best you can do is suggest suitable projects to different people, and more often than not they won't work on them anyway.

as for the overall debate, do I think all 3 buttons should be available, yes, as a matter of fact I do, I think it was a pretty ridiculous change, however, enough evidence was presented at the time to make it, and despite claims of others, I don't simply go about reverting other peoples code / submissions without reason.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:15:23 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2010, 03:17:53 pm »
Quote
I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

 And I know people in-person also.  Some who have Guns, or want them in the future.

 In fact, Id gather I know more passionate people in the arcade community in-person than you ever will.  Ive hung with various game collectors, who have Real machines as well as mame machines, and pinball machines... as well as the older electromechanical machines such as the old Ball Bowlers & EM gun games.

 I also worked as an Arcade Manager for Namco for 3yrs. In addition, Ive gotten email responses from developers like Owen Rubin, and Jamie Fenton.

 Ive hung out with the guy who created Videotopia, Jeff Anderson.  As we dumped the remaining 2 roms for TX-1 that were said to be needed... and he bought the TX-1 off of me.

 Ive been to game auctions/shows, pinball shows, and places like Funspot (largest classic arcade still standing), all of where Ive met some great people, who feel the same type of passion that I share about games.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2010, 03:20:23 pm »
Quote
I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

 And I know people in-person also.  Some who have Guns, or want them in the future.

 In fact, Id gather I know more passionate people in the arcade community in-person than you ever will.  Ive hung with various game collectors, who have Real machines as well as mame machines, and pinball machines... as well as the older electromechanical machines such as the old Ball Bowlers & EM gun games.

 I also worked as an Arcade Manager for Namco for 3yrs. In addition, Ive gotten email responses from developers like Owen Rubin, and Jamie Fenton.

 Ive hung out with the guy who created Videotopia, Jeff Anderson.  As we dumped the remaining 2 roms for TX-1 that were said to be needed... and he bought the TX-1 off of me.

 Ive been to game auctions/shows, pinball shows, and places like Funspot (largest classic arcade still standing), all of where Ive met some great people, who feel the same type of passion that I share about games.

So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

That's why, instead of trying to make the mainstream version of MAME suit your very specific needs, you should let it be what it is, you're in a minority.  If you want your changes you'd be better finding somebody to work on them in unofficial builds.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2010, 03:33:30 pm »
Quote
So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

 Firstly, niche as in "Arcade / Game" interested people are the exact kinds of people who use mame.
( A person usually finds mame, because of a passion for an old machine they used to love and play the hell out of)

 2ndly, its not the only type of people I hang with.  Its just an example of the types of people who are more passionate about games.  The people who it actually matters to.

 There are THOUSANDS of arcade games out there... and do you know where they went?  To peoples homes.  Thats right.  Imagine 8000 machines of One type of game, and they are all in peoples homes.  Then imagine that there have been games released for the last +50 years, and almost all have made it to someones home.

 The sheer number of gamers out there is Staggering.  Yet, because you have only met a certain type of people, that do not have machines or the same passions... you make the assumptions that the majority is the same as you have seen locally within your click.

 Its simply not the case.  ESPECIALLY when talking lightguns.  A Lot of people grew up using them, and want them for the pc... weather it be for mame or console emulation.  Also, theres a difference between want and have too. Plenty of people want Ram Controls new Starwars controller remake... but not everyone has the $300 to grab it.

 Be aware, your grasp on the game playing enthusiast is extremely limited at best.
(Especially for being on this site... which hosts thousands of game related projects)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:35:43 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2010, 03:46:56 pm »
Quote
That's why, instead of trying to make the mainstream version of MAME suit your very specific needs,

 Specific needs?  You mean 'Arcade Accuracy"  ???

 One thought the goal was to preserve arcade accuracy & experience... which includes arcade controls...

 That shouldnt be a separate version of mame.  In fact, mame should expand in a way to show people more history about these games.  As you listed, many people dont know T2 was a pot based game.   A simple picture of the bottom of the control panel may help with that, in addition to a line of text or two... as well as the possible separated controller mappings. (arcade -vs- user modified)

 The goal of the project should be about complete preservation, not about, "Well, the majority of young people I know dont even play 720.... so screw it".

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2010, 03:49:35 pm »
Quote
So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

 Firstly, niche as in "Arcade / Game" interested people are the exact kinds of people who use mame.
( A person usually finds mame, because of a passion for an old machine they used to love and play the hell out of)

The vast majority of people I know who use MAME to play games use it because they want to get an idea of what games used to be like, or played some on Xbox live, such a sequel / remake to something and wanted to play the original.

Most people who were actually playing these things back in the day aren't that interested at all, they have families to support, and little time for MAME / emulation at all.  This is evident from the lack of developers too (and the reasons developers have given for leaving the project)

None of them care if they're using a mouse instead of a gun, or an analog joystick on an xbox pad instead of a crazy 49-way controller.  They're probably rather happy that MAME just works, out the box, by default, and doesn't have a ton of bewildering options.  I am also happy with this situation because it make it far easier for me to develop and work with the project.

The rest of the people I know who use MAME use it to help with repairs and such, for which again, they consider the team to be doing a decent job.  This group don't care about *playing* the games in MAME, so again, don't care what inputs MAME supports, as long as they can use it as a debugging tool for their hardware.

You greatly overestimate your own importance, people who who want to use MAME, but with the original controls are a tiny, tiny minoirty.  Most people who want original controls use the original hardware.

Arcades are dead, because the number of people wanting to use them pales in insignificance compared to average people using PCs and modern gaming machines.

You are confusing your idea of 'arcade accuracy' with that of the devs.  Your views clearly do not agree with what the devs view as important, at all.  If your views disagree with that of the developers involved, then yes, they very much belong in a different project, a separate version of MAME, or whatever else.  There are no license restrictions that prevent this.




« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 04:00:34 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2010, 04:09:44 pm »
If i had only had a programmers brain





It's about two posts after this that I got tired of reading this.

Once Saint closes the thread, I'll be more than happy to read the Cliff Notes.

...the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  

Am I the only one that's mildly concerned about this?

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2010, 04:15:26 pm »
Quote
The vast majority of people I know who use MAME to play games use it because they want to get an idea of what games used to be like, or played some on Xbox live, such a sequel / remake to something and wanted to play the original.

 Exactly.  It shows your age bracket.  You didnt grow up in the days of the massive arcades.. and the people you know are the same bracket of people... who are Clueless.

 You, like most younger gens, think the world revolves around you.  You think that you are the majority... because the older gen is somehow vanished from existence! lol 

 What do you think happened to all those people who grew up playing with the nintendo zapper?  Or Area 51 in the arcades?  Do you think they forgot all that?!  Did they Die already?!

Quote
Most people who were actually playing these things back in the day aren't that interested at all, they have families to support, and little time for MAME / emulation at all.  This is evident from the lack of developers too.

 Developing for mame, and having an interest and playing games are completely different things.  In fact, I know plenty of older men like myself, who have extreme passion for their game hobby.   From collecting old consoles & games... to actual machines.   In fact, they have more money now then they did back in the day when they were kids popping their parents quarters into the machines.

 And yes, they Make time for their passions.  Family & or Business, it doesnt matter.  They find ways to get back their youthful experiences.

Quote
None of them care if they're using a mouse instead of a gun, or an analog joystick on an xbox pad instead of a crazy 49-way controller.  They're probably rather happy that MAME just works, out the box, by default, and doesn't have a ton of bewildering options.


 Exactly.  Why would they care if a game used a spinner?  They dont even know what it is.  And when they go to play a spinner game and its completely uncontrollable... they will write off the game as useless crap.  Instead of being a great treasured game that it is... when its played using the correct controller.

 However, there are those who Do want to know, and Would care, if they knew, and If say the xbox released a spinner attachment.

 In fact, many who come to this very site have stared off clueless, and not so appreciated in real controls and games they didnt play in the past... and have done a 180, and bought a spinner or various other controller... and now enjoy the games as they were intended to be enjoyed.   This extends to simple things like using a real wico 8 way leaf switch joystick for Robotron (the game is unplayable without it).

I am also happy with this situation because it make it far easier for me to develop and work with the project.

 - But it completely devalues the thing you are trying to preserve.  Its like taking a Lamborghini, and only preserving the engine.  Then controlling that car engine with an xbox thumb stick.  Its pathetic, and the opposite of what should be done.  Its completely the WRONG Attitude to have about preservation.


The rest of the people I know who use MAME use it to help with repairs and such, for which again, they consider the team to be doing a decent job.

 - Id say there are less people using mame for repairs is extremely limited at best.  Most the repair men have figured out how to fix games well before mame, and might only at best use mame for finding a romset.

 This group don't care about *playing* the games in MAME, so again, don't care what inputs MAME supports, as long as they can use it as a debugging tool for their hardware.

 - What kind of person repairs arcade pcbs and has no passion for games?  I know many game repair men, and most all of them have some real machines, if not entire basements filled with them.

Quote
You greatly overestimate your own importance, people who who want to use MAME, but with the original controls are a tiny, tiny minoirty.  Most people who want original controls use the original hardware.

 - My own importance?!  You mean, my idea about correct preservation?!
You are a complete ignorant idiot man.  No doubt about that.

Quote
You are confusing your idea of 'arcade accuracy' with that of the devs.  Your views clearly do not agree with what the devs view as important, at all.

 - There is no "my idea".  There is either accurate, or Not accurate / not preserved.

Haze

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2010, 04:15:57 pm »
If i had only had a programmers brain





It's about two posts after this that I got tired of reading this.

Once Saint closes the thread, I'll be more than happy to read the Cliff Notes.

...the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  

Am I the only one that's mildly concerned about this?

No, it concerns me too, the lack of motivation to make even simple changes is rather disturbing, I'm talking about changes which would take any dev, even ones with no programming ability 5 minutes at most.

It's been coming for a while, most of the recent changes and fixes to MAME in the last couple of builds have come from MESS, and it's looking fairly likely that the teams / projects will be fully merged at some point in the not so distant future, but even then it remains to be seen if people will be motivated to work on MAME.

There isn't any lack of work to be done, quite a lot of systems still need extensive work (for ones sharing hardware with consoles the mentioned merge should help) but even then there are arcade systems badly in need of attention which aren't getting touched at all.  This is why moaning and complaints about inputs are really a minor concern.  I'd rather see something running properly in terms of CPU / Graphics / Sound but with dodgy inputs than not running at all, or with severe glitches still.

As for Xiaou2, I give up, he won't accept reason or logic, or see why priorities are the way they are.  He appears to be living in his own little fantasy world and accept that his requests are beyond what the development team can offer, or feel the need to offer, or consider to actually improve or help the emulation in any way, shape or form.

It's not happening dude, get over it, the level of preservation offered by MAME has been chosen and set in stone for a long time, if your expectations are higher that's your own issue to be dealing with.  Other people might consider realistic 3d models of the cabinets just as important, whereas there are members of the dev team that think even the artwork system should be ripped out and MAME remain nothing but an emulation engine to interact with other software and not handle any kind of inputs / outputs directly *at all*.  Some think that no bootlegs should be supported, others think that all usermade hacks should be supported in addition to real arcade ones.

Can't please everybody.

My personal opinion is that MAME should emulate what it can, and steps we can do to improve the actual emulation of the system hardware should be done.  I don't give a damn about the inputs being accurate to the original, nor some of the flexibility being offered.  I want something that just works, for me, and other developers, and that's my goal.  That's why I'm looking forward to the MESS merging in, because it means I'll be able to improve the actual emulation code, and benefit both arcade and console emulation as a result.  Realistic goals, and a workable plan.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 04:25:36 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2010, 04:35:44 pm »
Of course it doesnt mean anything to you, because again... you are clueless about games.

 I could take you to places that have correct controlled games, and teach you how to actually play and enjoy the games properly... and your entire perspective would change.
 
 However, that isnt going to be the case.. because you are pathetically blind in your youthful perspectives, and subpar understandings.


SavannahLion, dont take Haze's comments too serious.  Hes been booted off the Team for whatever reasons... and there is no real telling what happens behind the scenes -vs- what Haze wants to present with his colored visions.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2010, 04:40:27 pm »
Of course it doesnt mean anything to you, because again... you are clueless about games.

 I could take you to places that have correct controlled games, and teach you how to actually play and enjoy the games properly... and your entire perspective would change.
 
 However, that isnt going to be the case.. because you are pathetically blind in your youthful perspectives, and subpar understandings.


SavannahLion, dont take Haze's comments too serious.  Hes been booted off the Team for whatever reasons... and there is no real telling what happens behind the scenes -vs- what Haze wants to present with his colored visions.


You were told the same things on Mameworld by other devs who you also tried to bully into doing exactly what you want with your demands and grossly inaccurate assumptions about the scope and difficulty of some of your propositions.  You near enough pissed off the only current dev who might be able to do something about your issues to the point where he just decided to go and work on more discrete sound simulations instead (he happens to be pretty much the only dev who understands those too, and I'm kinda glad he's working on them, because it is more important to get those right while the boards work)

I work in games, I understand games, and I understand what's important.  I work in software development, I understand what's important there too.  Robotron seems perfectly playable on a dualshock to me, no less so than an actual cabinet I've played it on.  Missile Command is fine with a mouse.  Sinistar and 720 are perfectly playable with an analog stick.  The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.  Support is far from mission critical.

The input system in MAME could be rewritten at any time in the next 20 years if somebody really wanted to, it's a minor, minor concern compared to getting the things up and running in the first place.  Getting them running is the hard part, that's what I consider preservation.  Right now, Raiden 2, for example, doesn't run properly at all.  I think getting it running, even if MAME only supported keyboard as an input, not even joystick, is far more important than not having it run at all as far as preservation is concerned.  Right now it could easily be 'lost' because game-software-critical components of the emulation are severely lacking.  The interests of those involved in MAME pretty much begins and ends with the things running properly on a current PC system with standard PC hardware.  Any level of preservation beyond that is outside the scope of the project.

You can continue to insult me all you want, but you appear to be the one in the minority here, even on a site that specializes in arcade controls.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 05:03:23 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2010, 05:35:23 pm »
Actually, you dont understand... which is why there is any debate at all.

 Id stomp all over you in robotron with a set of real wico 8ways, and thats giving you a year to practice, and me not playing in over 10 years.

 There is a very specific reason for this, and its all mechanical.  Something that You do not work it, and are not experienced with in the least.

 And with correct Wico leafs, your playtime and scores will be 10x that of a gamepad with any level of practice.  Currently, you have Nood status, meaning, Its doubtful you make it past level 5 let alone to level 12...

 In fact, I had to FORCE my 5yr old younger friend to play Robotron.  He Hated the crappy graphics, and was extremely against it, as it was Older than Dirt to him.  After only 15 minutes, he was hooked... and laughing like a giddy schoolgirl.  Me and him alternated... and after a few bouts over the next few weekends, he got to level 35... which is no joke on that game.

 Years later, he went to play it on his xbox 360 with the xbox controllers... and completely sucked.  Couldnt get past level 5.  He adomently cursed at how awful the controller were for the game, and how much better the real controller were.  He only played about 5 times, and he gave up.  Where as when we played the real machine... we were on it for like +4hrs at a time.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2010, 05:48:11 pm »
Actually, you dont understand... which is why there is any debate at all.

 Id stomp all over you in robotron with a set of real wico 8ways, and thats giving you a year to practice, and me not playing in over 10 years.

 There is a very specific reason for this, and its all mechanical.  Something that You do not work it, and are not experienced with in the least.

 And with correct Wico leafs, your playtime and scores will be 10x that of a gamepad with any level of practice.  Currently, you have Nood status, meaning, Its doubtful you make it past level 5 let alone to level 12...

 In fact, I had to FORCE my 5yr old younger friend to play Robotron.  He Hated the crappy graphics, and was extremely against it, as it was Older than Dirt to him.  After only 15 minutes, he was hooked... and laughing like a giddy schoolgirl.  Me and him alternated... and after a few bouts over the next few weekends, he got to level 35... which is no joke on that game.

 Years later, he went to play it on his xbox 360 with the xbox controllers... and completely sucked.  Couldnt get past level 5.  He adomently cursed at how awful the controller were for the game, and how much better the real controller were.  He only played about 5 times, and he gave up.  Where as when we played the real machine... we were on it for like +4hrs at a time.

.. and, I don't especially care?  For my needs, and the goals of the project, the existing solution, and allowing the use of conventional controllers is 100% adequate.  I don't care if you find it easier to play with real sticks, it's _entirely_ subjective and well outside the goals of the project.



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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2010, 05:48:48 pm »
As for Derrick, he started to work on controller inputs long ago and gave up.  He only said that he was still interested because he was angered at my commentary.  Yet the real reasons were more as Ive written.  The entire input system is a mess... and nobody wants to clean it up.  It had Nothing to do with me and my comments... so dont even try to blame that crap on me.  To do so is purely pathetic.

 
Quote
The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.

 You are wrong.  There are very good reasons why certain controllers were designed and built for games.  In fact, the entire gameplay is carefully balanced with those specific controllers as well... so any small deviation will create a complete imbalance in difficulty and intended experience.

 Unlike todays Craptastic games, where its more like an animated movie than an actual skilled game... I can understand why you would think such things.  Playing a FPS has 1/1000th of the intensity of a 5 minute round of robotron on any level higher than 6.  Each and every split second, you are in danger.  There is no place to hide.  No storyline cutsceens.  Its life and death in every split second of time.

 Games like Race Drivin were ALL about the controls.  The graphics were crap... but the controls felt so realistic, that it made the entire experience unlike anything out there.  Which is exactly why it was so successful.  FYI - Race Drivn / Hard Drivin has a 6 turn wheel w/ force feedback motor big & strong enough to power a clothing dryer.  Its gas pedal is spring based, while its brake uses a rubber compression for a more realistic feel.  Its shifter is the most realistic arcade shifter ever produced.  The games controls so good... even some DMV offices were developing it into a training device.

 The controls were no Gimmick.  They are an integral part of the game, its balance, its feel.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2010, 05:50:33 pm »
As for Derrick, he started to work on controller inputs long ago and gave up.  He only said that he was still interested because he was angered at my commentary.  Yet the real reasons were more as Ive written.  The entire input system is a mess... and nobody wants to clean it up.  It had Nothing to do with me and my comments... so dont even try to blame that crap on me.  To do so is purely pathetic.

  
Quote
The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.

 You are wrong.  There are very good reasons why certain controllers were designed and built for games.  In fact, the entire gameplay is carefully balanced with those specific controllers as well... so any small deviation will create a complete imbalance in difficulty and intended experience.

 Unlike todays Craptastic games, where its more like an animated movie than an actual skilled game... I can understand why you would think such things.  Playing a FPS has 1/1000th of the intensity of a 5 minute round of robotron on any level higher than 6.  Each and every split second, you are in danger.  There is no place to hide.  No storyline cutsceens.  Its life and death in every split second of time.

 Games like Race Drivin were ALL about the controls.  The graphics were crap... but the controls felt so realistic, that it made the entire experience unlike anything out there.  Which is exactly why it was so successful.  FYI - Race Drivn / Hard Drivin has a 6 turn wheel w/ force feedback motor big & strong enough to power a clothing dryer.  Its gas pedal is spring based, while its brake uses a rubber compression for a more realistic feel.  Its shifter is the most realistic arcade shifter ever produced.  The games controls so good... even some DMV offices were developing it into a training device.

 The controls were no Gimmick.  They are an integral part of the game, its balance, its feel.


and again, if you want one, you buy and use the original cabinet.  Not MAME.  MAME will never replicate the experience of the full custom built cabinet.  It is not intended or designed to do so, it never will be, such is outside the scope of the project, as I keep telling you.  Mame emulates the actual PCBs and attempts to provide a convenient input system for PC use.

I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

and yes, you royally pissed off Derrick, which should have been clear from the responses you got.  The existing input system is not a mess, no matter how many times you repeat that it is.  It works well for the majority of cases, and while there are some where some more flexibility would help, and a little inconsistency in places actual problems are few and far between.

In the majority of cases custom controls and custom cabinets were a gimmick, something that could be done, but in realty wasn't necessary, just presented something that looked a bit different to the player.

Nobody cares what you think, and no amount of repeating that will change what people think, or the scope of the project which you have no say in anyway.  If you are not happy, come up with your own project, or find a new team who will do so, and boss them around.  It's that simple.

MAME will not be doing what you want, ever.  It doesn't help the project.  I strongly suggest you read the bsnes link I posted as a prime example of what happens if developers try to bend over the meet the needs of a minority of over-vocal users.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:03:14 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2010, 06:02:14 pm »
Quote
I don't care if you find it easier to play like that, it's entirely subjective.

 Its not easier for me.  Its easier for ANYONE.  That is the point.
The Wico 8ways have a certain designed mechanical advantage to any other type of controller.  The entire game developement and game balancing was done on Wico 8way leafs, and any deviation from that is not representing the game as was designed.  In fact, the original game developer has Refused to play his own creation on a machine that didnt have the correct controls installed.  That tells you something right there.

 Just because you do not understand the Value of a REAL game, and put out Crappy piles every day of your worthless coding life... does not mean that everyone is on the same level as you.

 
Quote
Mame emulates the actual PCBs
We can re-roll this into "depending on its choice of what is worthwhile or not",
as proven by the previously argued points.

 
Quote
and yes, you royally pissed off Derrick, which should have been clear from the responses you got.

 Sure I did.  But that does not change the facts. He gave up the control systems long before I made any of my opinions verbal.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2010, 06:04:43 pm »
Quote
I don't care if you find it easier to play like that, it's entirely subjective.

 Its not easier for me.  Its easier for ANYONE.  That is the point.
The Wico 8ways have a certain designed mechanical advantage to any other type of controller.  The entire game developement and game balancing was done on Wico 8way leafs, and any deviation from that is not representing the game as was designed.  In fact, the original game developer has Refused to play his own creation on a machine that didnt have the correct controls installed.  That tells you something right there.

It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves, on the Analog sticks I can play it for ages.  For me the shorter distance between my hands, and use of my thumbs is vital.

As I said, it's subjective.  Trying to argue it isn't is a ridiculous as every single other one of your arguments.

As for Derrek, he's given up knowing that whatever he does he will be bitched at, you are a prime example of why that will happen, because NOTHING is good enough for you.  That's why the project has it's own goals, which you thankfully have nothing to do with.

Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.




« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:09:21 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2010, 06:08:56 pm »
Quote
I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

 I said I wasnt a big fan of it, BUT, because its part of the games history, it Should be preserved and be able to be experienced.

 I have a movie made by Wierd Al  called  UHF.  I bought the DVD, and the DVD has clips of footage that never made it into the movie. 

 I wanted to see the stuff that was made in the development process, so I watched it all.  Its was horrendous...  And god it was the right call to leave that stuff out... But, it was part of the history of the movie, and Im glad that someone realized that its better to preserve history, than to toss it out.

 As Ive said, to differentiate it from the original methods of controls, an option could be added to the cheat engine to enable it.  Or, some other form of switch.

 And again, this is far from the most important thing needed or wanted in mame... but it serves as an example of the logic and reasoning that needs to change.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2010, 06:11:08 pm »
It's kind of strange that someone who readily admits to having a "crippled brain" won't realize maybe this whole argument is an example of how that crippled brain has trouble understanding things.
NO MORE!!

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2010, 06:11:47 pm »

Quote
It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves,

 This is called PRACTICE.  You think I was good at Robotron at first?  I stunk at it too.  But if you actually invest a Little time into it, you actually improve.  Improve to the point where you realize the difference that is made from using a better tool than a poor tool.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2010, 06:13:53 pm »
Quote
I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

 I said I wasnt a big fan of it, BUT, because its part of the games history, it Should be preserved and be able to be experienced.

There are debug features in many games, hidden levels, hidden control schemes which were part of the game at one stage.  They never made it into the final product.  You can enable them with hacks.  The 3rd button never made it into an official cabinet, it might have been locked out from a hardware point of view, rather than a software point of view, but it's as much of a debug feature as anything else.

You can enable the debug features in most games with simple 1 byte rom patches, from a software point of view, no different to the hardware mod needed to use a 3rd button.  MAME doesn't enable all those things just because they're trivial to enable.

What constitutes part of the final game?  All evidence points that Yiear is a 2 button game, even if the software does support 3.  Should MAME misrepresent it?  Should MAME enable the software mods that allow various hidden features to be accessed too?  (Eco Fighters was clearly designed with a spinner in mind, there is code for a spinner buried in the ROM, the attract mode is clearly recorded with a spinner, yet it never shipped that way but is 100x more playable that way, you have to modify a byte in the rom to use that code tho)



It's not a simple black and white issue.  
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:16:37 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2010, 06:15:27 pm »

Quote
It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves,

 This is called PRACTICE.  You think I was good at Robotron at first?  I stunk at it too.  But if you actually invest a Little time into it, you actually improve.  Improve to the point where you realize the difference that is made from using a better tool than a poor tool.

Learning to program is called PRACTICE too, and would solve all your problems here..

Once again you fail to realise different people have different limitations, playing with 2 sticks, and my hands distanced is impossible for me, I don't have the co-ordination, I never will have the co-ordination.  As far as I'm concerned the original controls on things like Robotron and 720 are a bit crap and _ruin_ my enjoyment of the games.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:18:10 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2010, 06:17:49 pm »
Quote
Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

 Also, there are far more people here that should be banned, who have used far harsher language and foul posts that all and any post Ive ever made combined.

 I dont know if you have been reading the posts, and the little pictures that pop up here and there....  but all I have to say is that if these people cant get banned... its gona take a lot more effort from me to get banned.

 As for contributions, Ive done more than a lot of people here to contribute to mame.  From donations to artwork. And advice and helpful post on this very site, well often.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2010, 06:19:31 pm »
Quote
Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

I firmly believe you are.  It's a lot easier to learn to program than it is to learn to play a game with controls your body doesn't want to work with.  I wasn't born with the ability to program, I had to learn it, which was hard work.  I was born with piss-poor co-ordination, and nothing is going to change that.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2010, 06:24:29 pm »
Quote
Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

I firmly believe you are.  It's a lot easier to learn to program than it is to learn to play a game with controls your body doesn't want to work with.  I wasn't born with the ability to program, I had to learn it, which was hard work.  I was born with piss-poor co-ordination, and nothing is going to change that.


Not that I want to defend X, but I don't think good programmers understand how difficult it is for some people to learn it (programming).  My last (only) programming class was in 1986 and I sucked.  There's no way I could ever learn it.  It's exactly like learning a foreign language and I tried two different languages and sucked ass at them too.  And it pains me to say that X's analogy about drawing is spot on. 

The rest of his comments are idiotic though.  ;D

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2010, 06:27:00 pm »
Haze, when I was young... I had a speach impediment, was frail, clumsy, short, and sick very often. I also was found to have dyslexia. (see, read, write letters/numbers backwards & all directions)   I had an imagination that wouldnt stop.. and the room came to life - as I couldnt focus at all.

 Over the years, all this would be overcame.

 The worst was when they tried to put me in with the mentally handicapped kids... because they thought I would be too frail to go to regular gym class. 

 I hated this, as I knew I was not handicapped.. just a little slower, and a little frail.
I worked my --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- off, and eventually, was able to get out of there, and back to regular classes.

 Skip years later, when I was 20, and decided to take up martial arts.  In only a years time... I went from being clumsy and uncoordinated, as well as weak and frail... to being a graceful as a cat, powerful as hell, and a body that could take extreme punishment without ill effect or much pain at all.

 Physical attributes are Far easier to overcome than any mental issues. You cant just raise your IQ in a year by 50%.  But you can master robotron with 2 real controllers in far less than that.  Anyone can.  And we are taking a few hours worth of play.  Not months of practice... and not years.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2010, 06:27:34 pm »
Not that I want to defend X, but I don't think good programmers understand how difficult it is for some people to learn it (programming).  My last (only) programming class was in 1986 and I sucked.  There's no way I could ever learn it.  It's exactly like learning a foreign language and I tried two different languages and sucked ass at them too.  And it pains me to say that X's analogy about drawing is spot on. 

It's simple logic, and remembering a few keywords really.  Nothing more, as long as you can think things through logically in your head, and come to reasonable conclusions, and come up with a workable solution to the problem then the actual programming is the least of your worries..

Actually I think I'm starting to see why he struggles with it...


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2010, 06:31:28 pm »
Physical attributes are Far easier to overcome than any mental issues. You cant just raise your IQ in a year by 50%.  But you can master robotron with 2 real controllers in far less than that.  Anyone can.  And we are taking a few hours worth of play.  Not months of practice... and not years.

Well I'm inclined to think the complete opposite of you.  I can always learn more, but I'll always be clumsy, have shaky hands, and poor coordination.  That's why I work with computers, not do sport, music or anything like that.  Seriously, you could make me practice on it for years, and I still won't be that good at it, yet I can play it naturally with a controller that suits me fine, even if I can't think of any other game I play that uses dual analog sticks in the same way.

It's subjective, and if asked my preference to play Robotron I'd say a Dualshock pad, or even a keyboard.



« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:35:05 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2010, 06:38:31 pm »
But its not simple logic.  Its computer logic.. and its complicated as hell. Its not like talking to a person.  Its like trying to learn Chinese after you have gotten older.  Your mind is less absorbent, and it takes years and years just to even sound like a Child to them.

 But its even worse than Chinese. Because its not simple language... there is a lot of math involved in there too.  So you need to have great memory for holding all the commands, typing all those commands in the correct syntax which the computer likes, and then undedrstanding how to use the correct mathmatical formulas to work for you in the best way.  On top of all that... you need to understand the hardware limits of the things you are operating.

 Sure, A person with a 90 IQ is still going to have to work hard to get the skills they need to program well.  However, a person with a 40? IQ isnt going to be able to do more than:

10 Print "Hello"
20 End

 But take a person with poor coordination, and I could have them accurate, fast, balanced, and graceful in a year or two at max.  Physical coodination is mostly due to a lack of muscles in specific areas... as well as the lack of mental focus, on top of poor practice, and possible lack of confidence.  All of which are pretty easy to fix.  IQ? Not so easy to fix.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2010, 06:49:15 pm »
But its not simple logic.  Its computer logic.. and its complicated as hell. Its not like talking to a person.  Its like trying to learn Chinese after you have gotten older.  Your mind is less absorbent, and it takes years and years just to even sound like a Child to them.

 But its even worse than Chinese. Because its not simple language... there is a lot of math involved in there too.  So you need to have great memory for holding all the commands, typing all those commands in the correct syntax which the computer likes, and then undedrstanding how to use the correct mathmatical formulas to work for you in the best way.  On top of all that... you need to understand the hardware limits of the things you are operating.

For the most part you have a reference, so you don't have to learn that much.  Especially these days with online help and full searching of projects the answer to any problem is rarely a few clicks away.

As for logic, it's mostly 'if this is true, execute this sequence of commands, if it isn't true then execute this sequence instead and 'repeat x y times'

The actual computer logic is no different to any real life logic, planning, flowcharts, production / manufacturing processes.  The only thing you need to be weary of is to cover all realistic possibilities.  The computer does what you tell it, nothing less, nothing more.  If you solution has no holes in it, then your program will work.  If there are flaws in your solution, it won't.

Most of the time I've found people who struggle with programming can't see the flaws in their own logic, even if that logic has very little to do with the actual programming, more to do with glaring holes in their theories and solutions, just because they don't consider the possibility of something happening, or just think the computer will understand something, without actually being told it, or having a case to handle it.

The maths is hard, I'm not even that good at maths, I look most of it up when I need it.

The rest (especially emulation) is bitwise logic (and, xor, or), which again isn't that tricky.

The computer doesn't have personality, it doesn't have emotion, it doesn't jump to conclusions, it just executes the series of commands you give it, with the parameters you give it.

I've found that people who are bad at programming tend to be bad at logic in general, and almost impossible to explain things to in terms of logic, or expect reasonable, logical conclusions from.  That's just my experience with people.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 06:51:12 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2010, 06:49:38 pm »
I want to add, that if you look around, you can find people who have had their limbs chooped off, and they were able to learn to do certain things like eat with their feet.  Some of them being incredibly accurate, doing things more carefully than people with all of their limbs.

 This of course wasnt the case initially.  They made the decision that they wanted to improve their physical abilities... rather than be spoon fed.  Which obviously would take a lot more effort than simply working your existing muscles and coordination.

 Typical daily tasks dont challenge the body or stress your muscles into good developemental status.  Only things like martial arts, which are highly focused events, will develop the body into a well honed machine.   Other things like Dancing
could help too.   And while sports Can help... the main problem with sports is that there is less focus on an individual, and more on the team... thus, there is not enough attention, focus, and training put on you.  Progress would only then be made IF you yourself had drive like nobody else... and maybe some side help from people willing to spend time helping develop key aspects.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2010, 06:56:35 pm »
I want to add, that if you look around, you can find people who have had their limbs chooped off, and they were able to learn to do certain things like eat with their feet.  Some of them being incredibly accurate, doing things more carefully than people with all of their limbs.

 This of course wasnt the case initially.  They made the decision that they wanted to improve their physical abilities... rather than be spoon fed.  Which obviously would take a lot more effort than simply working your existing muscles and coordination.

 Typical daily tasks dont challenge the body or stress your muscles into good developemental status.  Only things like martial arts, which are highly focused events, will develop the body into a well honed machine.   Other things like Dancing
could help too.   And while sports Can help... the main problem with sports is that there is less focus on an individual, and more on the team... thus, there is not enough attention, focus, and training put on you.  Progress would only then be made IF you yourself had drive like nobody else... and maybe some side help from people willing to spend time helping develop key aspects.

Believe me, I've been to various rehabilitation courses, gym, sport, all that nonsense.. in the end, none of it helps.  I usually just end up crippling myself somehow.  It's not for lack of want, trying, or guidance, I just suck as far as anything physical is concerned.  It doesn't bother me, so I stick to what I can do instead rather than driving myself through hell and breaking myself doing something I can't.

Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?

How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.

If I can play better with a given controller, that controller is the better one for the game as far as I'm concerned.  I can concentrate on learning the patterns and playing the game, not the stress of trying to deal with controls I can't deal with.

Seriously, it would be easier for you to learn programming because it isn't even remotely complex compared to most every day tasks.



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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #79 on: November 14, 2010, 07:06:29 pm »
Actually, Im fairly good at logically reasoning things out.  But that had not helped me when I went to try to program my c64 and later, the Amiga.

 You input commands in a certain way that You think makes perfect literal sense,
and it gives you the e-bird.

 If programming were as easy as you say, then this entire forum would have long since put the needed stuff into mame.   The rates for programming saleries would drop by 80%, and much more.

 Its easy for you, because you have a brain that works and thinks a certain way.  And because of that, for you... it seems like everyone should find it exactly as easy as you do.  You simply cant see the logic in it, because you dont know what its like to have Mush inside your head.  Your mind is like Arnorld Schwarzenegger lifting up a tree.. and not understanding why everyone cant lift up a tree.  Its Easy Man!  Watch... Grunt.

 You are trying to pin me not having logic, as a reason why i cant learn.. but in fact Ive found the opposite.  Very intelligent people I find often have the hardest time with logic on a real-life basis.   For example, my brother is a genius... but when his car got clipped by a deer, he didnt get an alignment as advised.  As a result, he needed new tires in a very short time.   And thats just a simple example.  A lot of intelligent people have the absolute worst time with human to human relationships.  Its far easier to talk to a computer than a real person for them. Im not saying Im the best... In fact, I can be a jerk, but in person, I can be one of the nicer people you might meet.

 Personally, I dont like to take personal pot-shots at peoples weaknesses.. but when you try to put them on me, I have little choice.
 

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #80 on: November 14, 2010, 07:19:06 pm »
btw, cant you just map the up to a button 3 and unmap up?  Or did it do something else? 

I, in the arcade, destroyed the first piece of hardware on this game.  I was playing a game in college at a local convience center, the diaginals on th ejoystick wasn't registering, I hit it in anger a few times because it wouldn't go diagonal.. and the freakin joystick flew across the room...  I turned and walked out... never went back...  a jump button would have saved them a E clamp.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2010, 07:26:38 pm »
Quote
Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?
- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.

Quote
How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.
- Because Robotron is precisely balanced.  You need all the help you can get.  If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15.  But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.

 Why?  Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort.  And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.

 An analogy I was going to post earlier:

 Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car.   Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far.  The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.

 Why?  Because the F1 car is superior.  It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.

 And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.

 Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice.  You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you.  And you know what people did?  They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.

 Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.

 In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience.  If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet.  And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.

 Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:28:18 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2010, 07:47:53 pm »
Quote
Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?
- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.

Quote
How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.
- Because Robotron is precisely balanced.  You need all the help you can get.  If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15.  But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.

 Why?  Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort.  And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.

 An analogy I was going to post earlier:

 Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car.   Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far.  The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.

 Why?  Because the F1 car is superior.  It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.

 And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.

 Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice.  You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you.  And you know what people did?  They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.

 Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.

 In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience.  If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet.  And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.

 Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.


Again, your examples are completely crazy.

The difference between a dual shock analog stick and robotron's dual joysticks is NOTHING like the difference between a Beetle and an F1 car.

It's not even comparable.  This is just about the most absurd example you've come up with yet.

The F1 car has a clear and very obvious advantage as far as performing the required function is concerned, but as far as the controllers are concerned this is virtually no difference, and it could easily be argued that the analog stick, due to only requiring smaller movements (the deadzone isn't that big, and it's a smaller device) will give you far tighter and more accurate control anyway.  That's what I find.  I'd actually say the dualshock was a better controller than the antiquated original design.

Also, take into account things like height, on a real Robotron cabinet it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to play because I'm too tall, and sat down I have no leg room.  With a dualshock controller in the comfort of my own space I can play a much better game. The bottleneck of Robotron ability is not in the controls, but in your reactions, and ability to plan where you want to go / shoot.  Using real controls, even if I could use them perfectly would not change that.  I've never played the game with a dualshock and thought I died *because the controls sucked*.  Every time I died it's because I made the wrong decision.

If it wasn't subjective this argument wouldn't exist in the first place.  It's clearly *very* subjective.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:50:36 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2010, 08:04:46 pm »
Quote from: Haze
If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.


Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?



Quote
(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.


It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this back in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".

Agree, disagree?


The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.


 
Quote from: CheffoJeffo
...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade


What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?



Quote
I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought

Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.



Quote
... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:01:21 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2010, 08:13:43 pm »
Quote from: Haze
If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.


Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?

I imagine the operator manual was significant in the decision, as it shows how the game was meant to be used.  Cabinets of actual photos were probably also used.

Personally, I disagree and don't think the patch should have been applied, just the button unmapped by default, but some people consider forcing a button to be unmapped by default to be a worse hack.

Historically most of Luigi's submissions I dealt with myself came across as clueless, and I rejected them, and was heavily criticized (sometimes by people here) for doing so.  It appears this one was accepted at some point, and now people are being criticized for accepting it.

Quote
(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.


It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".

Agree, disagree?

MAME is developed on a keyboard, and the majority of users use a keyboard.  The primary concern is that it works for the developers, otherwise it simply doesn't get developer, and the secondary concern is that it works for the majority of users, so that we don't get false bug reports.  My preference when playing / testing MAME is a keyboard, for some games which are exceptionally tricky with a keyboard I'll use a dualshock pad, or a 360 controller.  If those cases don't work, I can't develop the software and I can't test the software.  Your examples and arguments are as ridiculous as most of the others presented in this thread, and border on trolling.

Do I think there could / should be a layer of abstraction which would allow such things to be turned off, yes, I've stated this.  I'm not about to program one tho, because I don't think it's that important.

I think there should be an option whereby all inputs, be they dipswitches or joysticks need to be fed in externally, and MAME does no processing at all of the inputs, and the only thing that works is exactly what the original software is expecting.  That would be unusable for 99.99% of the population tho, and you couldn't expect any help at all from the developers in using MAME in such a mode, because none of the developers will have used it, or tested it in that mode, much as the external LED signaling is handled right now.  Should MAME emulate pinball tables and other mostly mechanical games they would run exclusively in this mode, because simulation of the actual tables is nothing to do with MAME (it's too complex to even attempt unlike the simple cabinet features which are handled)

If MAME did not emulate some kind of cabinet responses then some games (I believe Afterburner comes to mind) would not function at all, because they expect to test, and have valid responses from the cabinet motors or control devices.  It is therefore absolutely necessary that MAME emulates some cabinet features behind the scenes.

The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.


 
Quote from: CheffoJeffo
...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade


What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?



Quote
I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought

Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.



Quote
... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?

If you're going to continue to insult the developers by referring to them as 'baby developers' you will not be taken seriously, period.  I remind you, it's not your project, it needs to work primarily for the developers, and main user base, not you.  That is the mature considered view of a development team who have been working on the emulator for longer than you've been using it.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:29:07 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #85 on: November 14, 2010, 08:47:47 pm »
Quote from: CheffoJeffo
...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade

What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

Quote
I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought
Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.

Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...   :afro:

Quote
... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?

If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #86 on: November 14, 2010, 08:50:15 pm »
Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.

I think the patch was unnecessary. If the 3rd button support existed in the original ROM's, it should be left alone.
Those who wish to play the game as it was in the arcades can just play it with 2 buttons.

In my opinion, something neat that exists in the real hardware is possibly being destroyed with this fix, even if it wasn't officially supported. It'd be cool to see this thread get back on track, especially if someone with a Yie Ar Kung Fu board could test functionality of a 3rd button.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #87 on: November 14, 2010, 09:00:12 pm »

Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...   :afro:


Its not really random. Yie Ar is Konami Classic, which is documented just like JAMMA and also has support for more than 3 buttons (my Moon War which is also Konami Classic is 4 buttons and a roller controller).

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2010, 09:07:29 pm »
Looking at the schematics it looks like the best bet would be pins (A12 or N for P1) on the solder side and (B15 or 15 for P2) on the parts side of the Konami connector.

Again I believe that since Konami left these unpopulated, as in the harness did NOT have wires for these connections. They should not be set as a usable default button in MAME!
Being documented is an entirely different thing which I have no issue with.

Having it as a usable button would only misrepresent the physical history of the game and you would have people that NEVER actually played it on a REAL CAB make crazy childish claims like "stupid baby MAME developers Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!"

« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 12:30:02 am by Siris »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2010, 01:46:15 am »
They should not be set as a usable default button in MAME!

Being documented is an entirely different thing which I have no issue with.

"un-usable" is exclusive of "default", these are two different things. Majority here thinks, so far, 3rd button should be usable, but not default. It is only you who supports the patch, only you think it should not be usable (available) at all, if I am interpreting you correctly.

Being "documented", in the context of MAME and hardware emulation, does mean being "emulated", which also means "usable" in this context. But again, we still do not know how "usable" was this 3rd button on an actual PCB, and if it was not easily accessible, then you will be the one who was right about it - I'll give you that, ok?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2010, 02:19:02 am »

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

If you can be more specific in relation to this: - "Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

MAME is THE document you want to be relying on here, that or the actual PCB, which is also why those two should function the same, so when Luigi "disabled" it, he practically "undocumented" it, and you see the consequences - no one knows about it, Luigi re-wrote the history, so to speak.


Quote
If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Please?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2010, 03:04:24 am »

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

If you can be more specific in relation to this: - "Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

MAME is THE document you want to be relying on here, that or the actual PCB, which is also why those two should function the same, so when Luigi "disabled" it, he practically "undocumented" it, and you see the consequences - no one knows about it, Luigi re-wrote the history, so to speak.


Quote
If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Please?


It was a design decision made by the original developers for reasons unknown to us,  and will probably remain unknown.  The purpose of mame is to document arcade machines.  This is a clear edge case,  the developers clearly did not intend it's use,  and were it not for mame,  none of us would know it existed.  It wasn't part of the arcade experience.  Much the same as Knights of the Old Republic 2 has a vast volume of data on the discs for parts left unfinished,  as does Fallout 2.  These things occur because design didn't work in the end product for whatever reason.

As such,  given Mame's intent to document arcade machines for posterity,  it does not belong in Mame as a functional option.  My understanding is,  the proper outlet for this is Misfitmame,  where the game was altered by modern developers.

So to be honest,  I think your best approach would be to politely approach the Misfitmame team and ask them if they'd consider reimplementing the option.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2010, 03:38:44 am »
It was a design decision made by the original developers for reasons unknown to us,  and will probably remain unknown.  

Unknown, thanks to Luigi?
 
You are being pessimistic. I am hopping we might eventually find out more about it.

Have you tried playing the game with the 3rd button? Once you try it, the game actually appears lacking without it. Without it there is too many random jumps, hoping the opponent would eventually move to where you going to land, but with the 3rd button the game is not really easier, nothing like a hack or cheat, you just have a better control over how far you jump. It simply makes matches shorter, less random and more technical. Try it.


Quote
The purpose of mame is to document arcade machines.

This is what everything boils down to. You have to separate "arcade machines/cabinets" from the actual PCBs. What makes a game, "where" is the game, in cabinet or PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?
 

Quote
This is a clear edge case,  the developers clearly did not intend it's use,  and were it not for mame,  none of us would know it existed.

We do not really know what *developers* intended. It is unknown and will remain unknown, remember? All I know developers made it pretty good, it makes total sense and fits completely in the gameplay with everything else.


Quote
It wasn't part of the arcade experience.  

Again, do you think MAME is supposed to emulate some "arcade experience" or actual hardware of actual PCBs? You would like to have "arcade experience" with PC monitor & keyboard? The point is to put the PC in arcade cabinet, Build Your Own Arcade Controls, and then have "arcade experience".
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:05:04 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2010, 04:09:57 am »
Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...   :afro:

Ok, I have to admit I base all my conclusions on the fact this functionality was originally in MAME. I assume it was there because it was a part of the original PCB, coded in the game ROMs, and as far as I know how MAME emulates input I also believe there was an actual pin there, but what I do know for sure is that the program did read input for the third button and used it if signal was available.

Whether there is an actual electrical lead from some chip leg all the way to the connector is still the question, but I certainly hope some MAME developer did not hack all that just for fun to be there to start with, and so that this functionality can indeed be found, and used somehow, on the actual PCB.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:16:03 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2010, 04:36:34 am »

 If programming were as easy as you say, then this entire forum would have long since put the needed stuff into mame.   The rates for programming saleries would drop by 80%, and much more.

 Its easy for you, because you have a brain that works and thinks a certain way.  And because of that, for you... it seems like everyone should find it exactly as easy as you do.  You simply cant see the logic in it, because you dont know what its like to have Mush inside your head.  Your mind is like Arnorld Schwarzenegger lifting up a tree.. and not understanding why everyone cant lift up a tree.  Its Easy Man!  Watch... Grunt.
 

Programming can be learnt,  it just might take some people longer than others.  You might ask the relevance of this, but alot of this will come down to time.  I'm a programmer and I can tell you exactly how long I have spent helping out with MAME.  None.  I have other projects and a life both of which get in the way.  No one is getting paid for MAME so ultimately it will all come down to how long people want to spend on it.  A change you want might take someone 20 minutes, it might take you 5 years.  If you want it badly enough, you'll spend the 5 years.  If they want it badly enough, they'll spend the 20 minutes.  I don't think you have the right to criticize the people who won't spend 20 minutes doing what you want.  Feel free to suggest, but I think the ciriticsm is going too far.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2010, 10:57:41 am »
Wow this thread turned crazy.

I feel I need to toss in my $0.02 sense in.

I agree with Xiaou2's point that if MAME is truly documenting the hardware, that support for that 3rd button should be included in one way or another.  The think that Xiaou2 doesn't realize is that the support for the 3rd button IS included. 

The 3rd button is coded into the game's software in the first place.  Now, the original PCB (according to many people) didn't specifically expose the 3rd button (i.e., it was not connected to the wiring harness in any way).  Although there was a 3rd button in the game, getting to it would have involved hacking a 3rd button by adding a wire to the stock harness and jumping whatever pin exposed the 3rd button over to the connector for the harness.

So, in exactly the same was as the hardware didn't expose it, the MAME team removed the exposed interface for button 3.  Now, if you really want to expose button 3, you essentially have to put in your own hack (or patch) to enable it.  MAME emulates the hardware MORE ACCURATELY by removing the interface to the 3rd button actually.  The control interfaces relate DIRECTLY to the hardware and also should be implemented accurately.

Someone can easily create a patch using code prior to u3 and allow people to "hack" in that functionality, just like there are plenty of other patches for that purpose.

What I don't agree with Xiaou2 about is how "easy" it would be to change text color for an unsupported control interface or any of the other features that he touted as "easy to implement".  As Xiaou2 fully admits he's not a developer, he has NO CONCEPT of the complexity of software in general, nevermind something as complex as MAME.  Something as "easy" as changing the text color would involve numerous changes such as:  Creating some designation in the core mame code to support "unsupported" controls, changing the menu code to be able to query for that identifier and display it differently, change whatever base code defines what controls types can be used and changing that, and I'm sure tons more.  It's a lot of code that DOESN'T GO TO HELPING ACCURATELY DOCUMENT THE ORIGINAL HARDWARE.  It's a ton of work.

I also think Haze is being a little disingenuous about how easy it is to "learn programming".  As a professional developer and project manager with over 10 years of development experience, I can say with confidence that learning programming is NOT that easy.  And that there's also a big difference between learning how to code, and learning how to code WELL.  It's like saying that anyone that can cut a piece of wood and nail it together is a Carpenter.  It's just not the case. It takes years of experience.

However, I do agree with Haze's assertion that if you want it fixed, you'll have to learn programming, or find someone who knows how to code in order to get it implemented.  Just like if you had the legitimate cabinet and you wanted to expose the button the manufacturer didn't want exposed, you'd have to either wire it up yourself or find someone that knows how to solder electronics to do it.  It's not sufficient to say "I don't know how to solder", and call up the company complaining, it's just not the way to get it done.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2010, 02:09:38 pm »
I also think Haze is being a little disingenuous about how easy it is to "learn programming".  As a professional developer and project manager with over 10 years of development experience, I can say with confidence that learning programming is NOT that easy.  And that there's also a big difference between learning how to code, and learning how to code WELL.  It's like saying that anyone that can cut a piece of wood and nail it together is a Carpenter.  It's just not the case. It takes years of experience.

However, I do agree with Haze's assertion that if you want it fixed, you'll have to learn programming, or find someone who knows how to code in order to get it implemented.  Just like if you had the legitimate cabinet and you wanted to expose the button the manufacturer didn't want exposed, you'd have to either wire it up yourself or find someone that knows how to solder electronics to do it.  It's not sufficient to say "I don't know how to solder", and call up the company complaining, it's just not the way to get it done.

For commercial programs and products, yeah, it can be tricky, there is a lot more to learn.

For MAME, the skills needed are a more specific subset (although I think a fair number of Aaron's recent changes have increased the learning curve somewhat, the C++ stuff isn't as immediately understandable as the plain C code for beginners)

Actual emulation (of systems) is pure logic, and understanding of the original game code, and what a piece of hardware can do within reason; for the most part it's identifying addresses and bits and coming to reasonable conclusions about what they do.  Tracing things from original schematics / reverse engineering protection devices are different skills however, a protection device black box simulation can be pretty complex, and schematic reading generally requires an understanding of electronics rather than just logic.

But yes, there is a significant amount of work involved in adding the features X2 is requesting, and an overhaul of the input system in general.  Remember that every single driver in MAME has some form of input port definition, which right now includes details of how the game reads the inputs, as well as what they actually are, and in some cases flags to indicate cabinet behavior (4-way etc.)

For a complete overhaul every single case in MAME would have to be split into at least 2 different structures to allow a cleaner separation between the actual bits read as inputs as read by the game, and the actual devices / cabinet.  This is non-trivial and further increases the complexity of the codebase.  Even 'simple' things as suggested aren't so simple, if you observe carefully MAME makes no use of coloured text right now, I doubt there is even support for it.  The UI code is basically Aaron's territory, and input code is basically Derek's these days, and to achieve anything they would have to work together which is something I'm not seeing a great deal of as of late.

MAME in many cases is an easy project to contribute towards, and yes, readding things like the 3rd button is a fairly trivial source mod, it would be a push to say you even need programming skills for it as most of the 'code' you'd have to change is a bunch of mame structures / macros which don't really resemble code at all (they exist for the purpose of clearer documentation)  From that point of view MAME might be considered a strange project, because such extensive use of preproccesor MACROs is usually heavily discouraged, but in the case of MAME it works well, and aids readability no end.

There is no point in bugging the devs about such things, because for the most part they just want to get things running, the rest can be taken care of later, the actual system emulation is the interesting, and important part, and there is still plenty of that to do (albeit with sadly few devs to do it)

I've worked on big projects, console-based projects, windows-based projects as well as other emulation projects, and MAME is by far the easiest of the bunch to work with and learn (or at least was, but I still think it is significantly easier than many others)

« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 02:11:18 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #97 on: November 15, 2010, 06:11:12 pm »
RosieMonster says...

"IN BEFORE THE LOCK!"

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #98 on: November 15, 2010, 07:43:53 pm »
Quote from:  nipsmg
I agree with Xiaou2's point that if MAME is truly documenting the hardware, that support for that 3rd button should be included in one way or another. 

documenting - support - included; It's interesting that we all kind of agree "what" needs to be done, yet there is disagreement on "how" it should be done and what exactly it applies to.


Quote
The think that Xiaou2 doesn't realize is that the support for the 3rd button IS included. 

No, not any more.

MAME devs had to do nothing about it in particular to include or support it, it comes within the game itself, and game ROMs are not part of MAME that only provides "drivers", emulation layer for "hardware" part, and together with game ROMs, the "software" part, we get complete virtual PCB.

So, what MAME should support/document is Inputs and Outputs of the PCB and emulate it in whichever internal way, where the point is for each and every input to produce the output as what the actual PCB would.

Now, to fully and properly DOCUMENT a PCB via emulation, the driver must INCLUDE all the Inputs/Outputs present on the actual PCB, it also must SUPPORT those virtual pins can be virtually wired or "mapped" in control panel, just like all the other I/O (test, service, dip switches), otherwise it's simply not documented.

Yes, that control panel in MAME, where you set "game default keys", that is supposed to be a document describing PCB connector pin-out, so once Luigi removed "support" for those pins, he undocumented the PCB I/O in favor of documenting the harness.


Do you see the problem?

We should be able to look at MAME input control panel and know all about every pin and I/O on the PCB of any given supported game, but now we have documentation before and after Luigi. First we learn there was available 3rd button input and we could virtually wire it, then Luigi came, however he is not even talking about the PCB anymore, but about the loom and cabinet wiring, about operators manual!!

After Luigi's patch there is not even any trace left of this functionality ever existed. It is NOT documented/included/supported by MAME, not any more. Yes, it will always exist embedded in game ROMs, but no one will know about it, which is in contrast to 'preserving' and 'documenting'.


Haze said he is familiar with MAME input, I think, so perhaps he can confirm whether this 3rd button could have been supported in older MAME without it actually being accessible and *legitimate I/O on the actual PCB to start with.

*legitimate enough to be documented, just as dip switches (often with unknown functionality) and everything else is, like service and test buttons that no one goes on to disable even though they are not implemented on many boards.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2010, 08:13:39 pm »
Quote
The difference between a dual shock analog stick and robotron's dual joysticks is NOTHING like the difference between a Beetle and an F1 car.

 While it is a bit of an exaggeration, its still a good analogy.

Quote
but as far as the controllers are concerned this is virtually no difference, and it could easily be argued that the analog stick, due to only requiring smaller movements (the deadzone isn't that big, and it's a smaller device) will give you far tighter and more accurate control anyway.

 You see, this is where software people get things all wrong.  Do you know what a Lever is?   The original stick isnt like a see-saw.  Its got a leveraged advantage of like 2 to 1.  So, the bottom of the stick moves twice as far as the top.  The switches themselves are tweaked to a hair trigger.

 The leaf switches have like a Millimeter clearance between contacts, and the Joystick actuator which presses the switches, is actually Touching all the switches. Meaning, that with about a single MM of travel, you are changing direction.

 NOW...

 An Analog stick is not leverage the same way.  Analogs need a wider range of motion to provide much more resolution.  Because of this, you have about 5 times as much travel to the furthest extents.  Then you take away a dead-zone for poor accuracy, and that leaves you even more problems.  Then you add in the fact that an analog has a dual spring system that puts major tension in the middle, & little tension on the middle to outside edge... and that compounds things even more.
(much more apparent in a game like Sinistar, where even the tiniest move can make you go warp speed, & or the wrong vector)

 A Wico 8leaf has a rubber center ring, and its a central pivot. The center is easiest to move within (low to no resistance at all), with the outer edges being a touch more spring to it.  Yet because its center pivoted, the negative effects of control loss (reaction times/speeds ) & fatigue thru resistance, are almost gone in totality.

 You see, for every time you have to move from left to right, the wico will beat your stick by about 3mm in each direction, for 6mm travel total loss in efficeincy.  And thats in ONE "juke" move.  Then, if your analog stick is like most, with a squared guide edge... every time your stick gets deep into a corner, you will lose even more distance and time.  The wicos have a round edge, and can glide effortlessly in circular directions without any physical corner-jolt, nor the extra distance the stick travels to get into that corner (about 1.5 to 2 mm).

 Yes, an analog can be set with a low deadzone... and if you could somehow play without going to the extreme edges of the ministick (nearly impossible due to the heat of battle, and the lack of resistance to properly hold you away from the edge), you might be a little better off... but even then, you still wont beat the 1mm wico activation gap... and you wont beat the corner losses.

 As such, in a game like Robotron, with a mini analog, you will effectively be lapped by the F1 car about 100 times in a single level.  That is how much loss you will have in extra distances, frictional spring resistances, and corner friction+distance losses.

Quote
 That's what I find.  I'd actually say the dualshock was a better controller than the antiquated original design.

 Its a good think programmers stick to programming, and not building cars or at best.. joysticks.   You really dont understand a single thing about simple mechanics, physics, leverage..etc.   Study up, cause you just got "Schooled" Hardcore by a self admitted dummy.

Quote
Also, take into account things like height, on a real Robotron cabinet it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to play because I'm too tall

 My buddy, who got over level 35, is about 6'3.  He played along on the Original standup game, for several hours at a time without problems or complaints.

Quote
The bottleneck of Robotron ability is not in the controls, but in your reactions, and ability to plan where you want to go / shoot.

 Its more than just planning.  You have to be able to change plans fast, because things get out of hand very quickly.  Especially when you have a zillion bouncing balls flying all over the place, or being pommeled with ememy fire from multiple directions + nearly getting run over by flying and walking enemy.  Basically, you need to be able to Juke and change direction at close-shave pixel miss speeds. And if your controller reaction is too slow, that pixel wont miss.. it will hit.. and you will lose a life.  I cant count how many times my character was 1 pixel away from death.. on even a single level... let alone in a full game.

Quote
  Using real controls, even if I could use them perfectly would not change that.  I've never played the game with a dualshock and thought I died *because the controls sucked*.  Every time I died it's because I made the wrong decision.

 There is partial truth to this, but that is because you are an extreme beginner.  
When you get good enough with correct strategy, then it comes down to precision and lighting fast jukes/escapes.  All of which cant be preformed on a mini analog. There simply is way too much travel and resistance for that.

edit...

 And finally,

 Age does not change PHYSICS.  Once you realize that, you can realize that there is no such thing as antiquated mechanics.  It either works better or worse based on mathmatics & physics.  As such, you cant apply your Childish attitude of "Because its not from my Generation, it must Suck"  card.  Quite simply put, this isnt Opinion. Its pure undisputed undeniable Fact.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:22:05 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2010, 08:25:15 pm »
And I repeat again, the color idea was just an idea.  I dont think the button should be a part of the main menu.  It should be hacked into the cheat system in some form... or on its own sub-category..etc.

The stereo option, could also be part of a built-in cheat switch option.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2010, 11:10:01 pm »
Quote
An Analog stick is not leverage the same way.  Analogs need a wider range of motion to provide much more resolution.  Because of this, you have about 5 times as much travel to the furthest extents.  Then you take away a dead-zone for poor accuracy, and that leaves you even more problems.  Then you add in the fact that an analog has a dual spring system that puts major tension in the middle, & little tension on the middle to outside edge... and that compounds things even more.
(much more apparent in a game like Sinistar, where even the tiniest move can make you go warp speed, & or the wrong vector)

you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.




« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 11:11:38 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2010, 11:49:44 pm »
This thread has gone in so many different directions it's insane!

It's gone from MAME doesn't accurately represent the PCB to difficulties of drawing and programming to martial arts and the proper joystick for certain games.

So let's break it down the common thing throughout all this has been MAME.

abaraba: Besides starting off by insulting the MAME team for their decision to remove the JUMP button from Yiear (which never existed beyond development) you have persistently nagged,  bitched, and whined about it even trying to conduct a poll by from my count the majority are against you. You have been told if you feel your argument is justified simply submit the fix with your evidence validating why it's appropriate. This is not the place for such rants!

Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

Both of you seem to fail to understand that MAME is not a PAID project it is programmed by people for fun and enjoyment! No one is going to listen to people who ---smurfette--- at them for doing something they enjoy if anything it will make them stop doing it!

If you believe so hard core then buy the original game and show it off to your friends and explain every detail to them!
 You can set up an original cab of any game and set the supposed perfectly emulated game on MAME in a CAB next to it and I will GUARANTEE they will NOT behave the same that's emulation!

Deal with it, Submit your fixes, try and contribute in a non harsh way, or please STFU!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:04:53 am by Siris »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2010, 12:39:40 am »
fail to understand that MAME is not a PAID project it is programmed by people for fun and enjoyment! No one is going to listen to people who ---smurfette--- at them for doing something they enjoy if anything it will make them stop doing it!

Deal with it, Submit your fixes, try and contribute in a non harsh way, or please STFU!

Hey, don't make sense... that's not what we do here.  :lol

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2010, 01:42:00 am »
Quote
Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

 No.

 Im saying that the gameplay was designed and balanced with these sticks.  If they had used other less sensitive controllers... they would have had to reduce the games difficulty by half of its current intensity.  (Which is pretty much how all games made today are... Easy, boring, Snorefests, which take no skill to make progress in)

 However, if they had used a typical happs comp... the square restriction would have caused carnage to the sticks.  They wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks in an arcade setting.

Quote
you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.

 I really cant believe how much of a lack of logic you have.

 If you have one guy run 50 meters to the left, then 50 to the right... He wont be able to beat the guy who runs 10 meters to the left, and 10 to the right.

 If you glue a stick to your analog, and tilt it as far as it goes in each direction... then note the distance between the angles, you will see exactly how far you have to move relative to a wico.  The Wico angles will be 1/5th or less the distance.

 Monster Cables have Zero benefit at all for the signal that they carry.  However, there IS a HUGE Mechanical advantage that can easily be measured and felt, with wico leafs.  This isnt some small difference, its a Huge one.

 A simple experiment can be done. Write a test program that measures the time it takes to move from left to right for exactly 60 seconds.  Anyone with a wico leaf hooked up will beat your time by more than half.

 For one, the thumb is a clumsy slow digit.  Moving laterally back and forth accurately and fast, in the air alone, is horrible.  (Try brushing your teeth with the movement of your thumb, but not moving the arm/wrist)   Then, take your fist in shake it laterally as fast as possible.  Its a piece of cake.  Its accurate, its fast, its no fatiguing.  Its called Physics.

 The rest boils down to more resistance (friction), longer distance to travel, and all the other things mentioned.

 If your too simple minded to understand, and you dont believe me, ask some highly paid egg head engineers.  They will give it to you straight up. 

 And, who do you think designs these controllers?  Some idiot with a block of wood and a carving knife?!  These are highly precise and severely complex things that only specialist can handle.  Especially considering that these things had to be built to withstand major abuses and extreme wear.

 This is the very simplest of physics.  Even grade schoolers should be able to understand this stuff.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2010, 01:52:17 am »


(FWIW, he's right about Robotron. I have it on Xbox and I also play it on my MAME cabinet with ball-top Wico leaf joysticks. There's no comparison. I do horribly with the Xbox 360 dual analog sticks. There's just too much "throw" for the speed of direction reversing that game requires).
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2010, 01:57:58 am »
Quote from: Siris
abaraba: Besides starting off by insulting the MAME team for their decision to remove the JUMP button from Yiear (which never existed beyond development) you have persistently nagged,  bitched, and whined about it even trying to conduct a poll by from my count the majority are against you. You have been told if you feel your argument is justified simply submit the fix with your evidence validating why it's appropriate. This is not the place for such rants!


Xiaou2:
- "Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality."


CheffoJeffo:
- "I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA."


TOK:
- "If the 3rd button support existed in the original ROM's, it should be left alone."


Grasshopper:
- "It makes no sense to disable the third button if the hardware (and software) supports it."


Haze:
- "Personally, I disagree and don't think the patch should have been applied, just the button unmapped by default.."



That's everyone who actually made a comment about it. I'm telling you again, you are the only one who supports 'any changes', blindly, without an actual opinion of your own.



Were dip switches, test and service buttons also part of "arcade experience"? Perhaps they should disable them too since their interface was not exposed on a control panel?

C'mon, no mater how subtle, at the end it is really simple - do you think MAME should document/emulate PCB I/O, or harness wiring? Pick one!
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2010, 02:04:11 am »
Can we not track down anyone with this PCB? Anyone here with some ties to KLOV people? Whom is the best to ask about this then, Konami?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2010, 02:16:58 am »
abaraba,

I already showed that the connections for these buttons probably do exist on the board (Read my earlier post) The fact is they didn't use it on the cabinet! So cry all you want but if you can't play the game without that button that just means you suck at the game! EOD

I have NEVER heard anyone cry so loudly about how much they suck at a game that they want to change the rules. It's just freaking SAD!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 02:45:34 am by Siris »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2010, 03:04:33 am »
Ok, I was wrong to take you seriously. Now, if you would stop blabbering. You said much without really explaining your position. I already know you are angry at me, now can you answer the question without involving myself in your argument, please: - Do you think it is more important MAME should document/emulate PCB I/O, or harness wiring? You think harness, right? That's fine, I was just curios to see what people think about it. Relax now, ok?


I disagree of course, if for nothing else then for inconsistency. Look at this screenshot below, that's what documenting the PCB means, used/unused it's all there, just like on my Green Beret PCB, and ain't it cool to have all that information without the need to actually own one? Who knows, maybe there are some more Easter Eggs programmers left for us behind those unknown/unused switches, but to go into trouble and disable/undocument something that was originally already there is what displeases me the most, the patch is so very unnecessary destructive - based on operators manual, sheesh!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 04:10:53 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2010, 09:20:50 am »
....
And with that post we have now reached the point where more time has been spent reading and debating this topic than has ever been (or will be) spent playing the mediocre-at-best Yie Ar Kung Fu  :hissy

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2010, 09:27:02 am »
Most relevant post in the thread.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2010, 09:35:33 am »
Actually, because of this thread I went and played both Yie Ar AND Robotron and got my highest scores ever on both!  :laugh2:
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2010, 09:50:13 am »
Quote
Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

 No.

 Im saying that the gameplay was designed and balanced with these sticks.  If they had used other less sensitive controllers... they would have had to reduce the games difficulty by half of its current intensity.  (Which is pretty much how all games made today are... Easy, boring, Snorefests, which take no skill to make progress in)

 However, if they had used a typical happs comp... the square restriction would have caused carnage to the sticks.  They wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks in an arcade setting.

Quote
you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.

 I really cant believe how much of a lack of logic you have.

 If you have one guy run 50 meters to the left, then 50 to the right... He wont be able to beat the guy who runs 10 meters to the left, and 10 to the right.

 If you glue a stick to your analog, and tilt it as far as it goes in each direction... then note the distance between the angles, you will see exactly how far you have to move relative to a wico.  The Wico angles will be 1/5th or less the distance.

 Monster Cables have Zero benefit at all for the signal that they carry.  However, there IS a HUGE Mechanical advantage that can easily be measured and felt, with wico leafs.  This isnt some small difference, its a Huge one.

 A simple experiment can be done. Write a test program that measures the time it takes to move from left to right for exactly 60 seconds.  Anyone with a wico leaf hooked up will beat your time by more than half.

 For one, the thumb is a clumsy slow digit.  Moving laterally back and forth accurately and fast, in the air alone, is horrible.  (Try brushing your teeth with the movement of your thumb, but not moving the arm/wrist)   Then, take your fist in shake it laterally as fast as possible.  Its a piece of cake.  Its accurate, its fast, its no fatiguing.  Its called Physics.

 The rest boils down to more resistance (friction), longer distance to travel, and all the other things mentioned.

 If your too simple minded to understand, and you dont believe me, ask some highly paid egg head engineers.  They will give it to you straight up.  

 And, who do you think designs these controllers?  Some idiot with a block of wood and a carving knife?!  These are highly precise and severely complex things that only specialist can handle.  Especially considering that these things had to be built to withstand major abuses and extreme wear.

 This is the very simplest of physics.  Even grade schoolers should be able to understand this stuff.


I disagree with you entirely, I'm saying the actual difference presented is marginal, the bottleneck of playing the game IS NOT IN THE CONTROLLER, even if you can prove by some method of physics that one is 'better' than the other.

For _playing_ the game IT ISN'T

I'll restate, I've NEVER, not even once died when playing robotron due to a failure or limitation of the controller I'm using.

That is the absolute and only proof you need that giving me a 'better' controller (as you define it) would make absolutely no difference to my ability to play the game, and therefore to me, due to the added difficult in using your so called 'better' controller, it is not a better controller at all.  Any kind of mechanical advantage makes absolutely no difference when the bottleneck of playing the game is not in the mechanics.

No amount of physics and 'proof' can change these very, very simple facts.

You seem highly offended that I prefer playing it with a dualshock, and I do, I'm better at it that way, I'll always be better at it that way.  To me, that's how it was meant to be played and is the only way I can fully enjoy the game.  I wish they'd put them in the cabs back then instead.

You can't lecture me on how some other controller is better, when the controller I'm using has never been the problem in the first place, because I will just laugh at you, like I like at people who try to sell me things I don't need by claiming that they're better, when really, they're just more expensive / less practical for me / I won't need half the features.  We are not talking 50 meters vs 10 meters, we're talking tiny distances vs. other tiny distances, which relative to everything else make no difference to me playing the game.  If I tell you to run 0.000001cm that way, and some other guy to run 0.000200cm the other way, you're not going to notice even if one is 200 times further.

Maybe you don't like me stating this, because it clearly shows that the entire argument IS subjective.  You prefer real sticks and find they're better, I prefer the analog sticks and find they're better.  This conflict of opinion seems to break you?  In terms of playing the games, that's the reality of the situation, different people will find different things better. I prefer to use my thumbs, a twitch of my thumb is an easier and more precise movement than moving my whole hands.  You are not me, you cannot tell me what is best for me.

Just admit it's subjective and be done with it.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:05:29 am by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2010, 10:40:56 am »
But you are wrong.

 Its not fractional as in "0.000200cm"

Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2010, 10:45:53 am »
Nobody can dispute this!

This statement is absolutely wrong.  I challenge you to tell me why.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2010, 11:40:52 am »
No one cares, I get it, but there is couple of completely unrelated discussions going on here, and no one is even talking to me anymore, so what in the world are you people talking about, what are you doing here, really? Hahahahaaa!

yotsuya,
Did you at least play Yie Ar with the 3rd button so you can tell me what you think about it?


Peab0dy,
Mediocre? Uh, uh, uh-huh, uh.

Do you care how these games are emulated/documented/preserved?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2010, 11:58:19 am »
But you are wrong.

 Its not fractional as in "0.000200cm"

Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.



Far from it, I think you seriously underestimate how sensitive most analog controls are.  They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other, not to mention they're a lot more comfortable than annoying sticks.

And you've still failed to answer the simple question, HOW is an alternate controller going to improve my ability to play the game when I'VE NEVER DIED BECAUSE OF THE CONTROLLER.

and don't come up with bull answers like 'but you have' because I assure you, absolutely, and without any doubt, that I haven't, it's always been due to a poor decision.

The controller I'm using is perfectly 100% fine for my use of the game.

If it wasn't subjective then I'd simply be sat here agreeing with you and saying 'yes, you're right, I can do far better with a real controller' but, I can't.

It's laughable that you continue to tell me that how I could play the game better, when you're not even me.  I'm not telling you that YOU should use a Dual Shock to get better scores, if it doesn't suit you as well, it doesn't suit you as well.  You're the one being pig ignorant and saying that it's only possible to play the game properly with the original sticks, and that I'm wrong for not doing that.

Again this whole thing is just reflective of your general troll-like attitude, everything has to be your way, or not at all.  You have to be right, you can't accept that others have different preferences, or different opinions.  Things need to work the way you want them to, or your bitching, moaning and demand people change them when for a majority of people, things are fine as they are.  Simply having a preference for controls on Robotron has led to you calling me 'simple' 'deluded', a liar and a whole bunch of other insults just because I prefer a control method you don't, I think that says a lot about your character.

Again this is why nobody will take you seriously, and nobody will listen to you because you can't help but insult people if they don't bow to your demands.  You can't even accept that people HAVE a different opinion on matters even if they're not trying to force you to have the same opinion.  Instead you just insult them and attempt to ridicule them because their preference differs.  You are completely intolerant and bigoted as far as well.. anything.. is concerned.



« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 12:13:22 pm by Haze »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2010, 12:13:05 pm »
You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.  Any player who entered a tournament using one would be considered a non-threat, and often were ridiculed behind their back.

This last year a pad player by the name of Snake Eyes won the national SF2 championship. 

I haven't read all the last postings about controllers vs. the game, but long experience in competitive gaming has told me that people can get good on things you would never have thought possible.  I've seen players online do things in SF on a keyboard that I have trouble doing on the best joysticks you can buy. 

Just throwing in my 2 cents. 

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2010, 12:15:21 pm »
You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.  Any player who entered a tournament using one would be considered a non-threat, and often were ridiculed behind their back.

This last year a pad player by the name of Snake Eyes won the national SF2 championship.  

I haven't read all the last postings about controllers vs. the game, but long experience in competitive gaming has told me that people can get good on things you would never have thought possible.  I've seen players online do things in SF on a keyboard that I have trouble doing on the best joysticks you can buy.  

Just throwing in my 2 cents.  

Exactly my point.  It's down to the player which control method they prefer, which suits them best, which they are most comfortable with, and as as a result allows them to play the game better.  It's not physics, it's preference.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2010, 12:40:46 pm »

Now, to fully and properly DOCUMENT a PCB via emulation, the driver must INCLUDE all the Inputs/Outputs present on the actual PCB, it also must SUPPORT those virtual pins can be virtually wired or "mapped" in control panel, just like all the other I/O (test, service, dip switches), otherwise it's simply not documented.

Yes, that control panel in MAME, where you set "game default keys", that is supposed to be a document describing PCB connector pin-out, so once Luigi removed "support" for those pins, he undocumented the PCB I/O in favor of documenting the harness.




This is where I disagree and say that the way the MAME team did it MORE FAITHFULLY documents the board. 

I equate the control panel in MAME to the pinout for the wiring harness.  This is where you can say " take this exposed connection that you've given me access to on this wiring harness, and use this wire to connect it to this control.".   However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

However, there was a hardware hack you could do that involves wiring that interface to the harness yourself to expose that functionality to the wiring harness.  At that point (after the hack/patch) you could then assign a button to it.

On the MAME Control panel, you can currently directly wire up all of the inputs that were exposed on the original PCB through the wiring harness.    However, just like on the original PCB, if you want to expose the 3rd button, you have to expose that interface yourself through a hack/patch.  You can wire from the emulated input processing chip (The hardware chip on the board) to the wiring harness (Control Panel) by putting in the patch I mentioned before (wire connection from pin to wiring harness).  The PCB was delivered WITHOUT THAT CONNECTION MADE.  Just like how it's currently represented in MAME. 

MAME emulates the software and hardware faithfully, which allows you hook up that extra, non-supplied connection by putting in the patch that you want.  Just like you'd have to ADD A JUMPER WIRE TO THE ORIGINAL BOARD to get that functionality in the real hardware you have to ADD SOME JUMPER CODE to the emulated hardware to expose the functionality as well.






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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2010, 12:41:56 pm »
Totally off topic, but random capital letters mid-sentence is almost as bad as posting in all caps. If you don't know how to use them, don't.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2010, 12:52:01 pm »
@pinballjim:  That's your opinion, but you also succeeded in adding nothing to the discussion.

One of the great things about MAME is that it faithfully documents the underlying hardware.  I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon that says "it's all about documentation and not about playing games", because that's just idiotic.  If the end result wasn't playable games, then there wouldn't be any real interest in the project whatsoever.

However, I like the fact that MAME doesn't take shortcuts to make games more playable.  There are tons of software hacks, dynamic recompilation, and other tricks that they could use to make some of the more graphics intensive games run much more quickly than they do now.  However, that would not be true emulation and documentation of the hardware, and they've decided against it.   If you don't agree with that for certain games, there are generally other emulators (i.e. Model2 emulator, Nebula, etc) that are made for certain systems that run games very faithfully and much faster, but they use graphics acceleration and other methods to speed it up.

The MAME team was alterted to the fact that although the code of the game supports a 3rd button, that interface was not exposed on the original PCB.  They then went in and removed that exposed interface.  They didn't remove all ability to ever get to it, they just decided that since they were faithfully representing the hardware in software form, that in its original state there was no interface to that control, so they wouldn't provide it either.

That's one of the things I like about MAME.  Some people don't like that aspect of it.  However, the fact that you don't agree with MAME's stance on strict hardware emulation doesn't make my original post any less correct.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2010, 02:37:56 pm »
(Directed at no one in particular)

Thank you for keeping it civil folks!
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2010, 07:02:05 pm »
Wow... I never realized Yie Ar Kung-Fu was such a controversial game. 


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2010, 07:02:19 pm »
If your Brake pedal is twice as long, and takes twice the amount of time to get it to react... means you are always at a disadvantage.

 Just because you hit children with your car because you dont react to them at all, does not mean that your choice of brake pedal is making that situation any better.

 Its simple physics that you cant have a brake pedal twice at long in travel, and expect the same results as one with a shorter travel.  At some point in time, weather you realize it or not, you Are dying because of a delay in reaction time.  A death that would have been averted with a controller much more sensitive to quick changes.

 And if you are barely good enough to get to the point where this comes into play, eventually it will.  And most especially will come into play for people who actually progress past the baby level stages.

Quote
Far from it, I think you seriously underestimate how sensitive most analog controls are.  They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other, not to mention they're a lot more comfortable than annoying sticks.

 Jeez man, you really are kidding right?!  I have used mini analogs FOREVER!  Ive been into games since the Vic20 days, right on to PS2 and up.  I also have a Saitek p880  ps2 clone gamepad for the PC.   Ive also played with the latest console mini analogs.  Its all the same technology, and nothing new at all.

 You think your talking to some Noob.  Im older, and wiser pal.  I have more experience and time with games and controllers than you. Including my time fixing the things in the arcades for Years.  Ive also Built my own controllers from scratch... which shows how well I understand the mechanics and physics of such things.

Quote
They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other

 This shows that you dont know how to Read.  And you are so ignorant and wrapped up in your own delusions to actually realize your misunderstandings.

 Size of the mini analog does not matter.  You still have move the thing MORE than the larger stick!!!!!!   Its called "THROW".  The throw of an analog is far greater than that of a wico leaf. FAR FAR FAR Greater!

 
Quote
I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other

 But you WILL.  WhY?  Because the horrible leverage they offer.  Once you get past the the deadzone, where the spring is tightest... you completely overcome the spring force, and slip to the edge way too easily.  Most especially when you are under extreme pressure.
 
 Now, if you have Ever used a laptop that has one of those tiny analog mouse controllers that are on the keyboard (IBM thinkpads)... you would notice that the pressure to move them is constant, and even ever-increasing as you exit the centerpoint.  If it were more like gamepads analog, your mouse pointer would be uncontrollable and all over the place.  You would constantly overshoot the targets, because the friction is too light to maintain good control.  These laptop analog differ mechanically, which make them suitable for highly accurate positioning.

 A mini analog could just as easily be modified mechanically to replicate this same level of accuracy.. however, that would at the same time cause too much fatigue and slower reaction times.  This is why the Wicos rubber centerpoint-pivot-spring is far superior.  It allows quick motions without huge center-friction.

 A larger analog stick solves the mini sloppy control problems, by sheer stick length.  The added length gives a person superior leverage and ability to hold positions accurately and easily.  That isnt the case of the minis.  Game programmers have to actually make a games input less sensitive on purpose, because the minis have such bad control. (even though they are just as sensitive as the large pot versions)

Quote
You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.

 Sorry, but even SFIICe is cakewalk compared to the intensity in Robotron.  The level of accuracy needed is not very much... and many people can play SF games with a gamepad just fine. (including myself)   In fact, a digital gamepad is still a step up from a mini analog, as it takes Less physical travel to activate a switch.  Very comparable to a leafswitch found on a wico.  Try playing SF with a mini analog... now that would be ridiculous.  (which is basically what he is suggesting... and even that is easy compared to Robotron)

 So as you can see, Im not Biased.  I can and do play fighters with digital pads.  As well as the occasional use of mini analogs on certain games.  However, that does not change the facts.  Mini-Analogs simply are garbage for Robotron if you want to get anywhere past the 8th stage on a consistent basis. 

 There is a HUGE mechanical disadvantage, that goes WAY beyond the SF example.  We are talking OVER an Entire Centimeter of travel  -vs-  2mm activation on the Wicos.  That again not counting all the other disagvantages.

 You might as well just put on boxing gloves and try to play the game that way.
lol

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2010, 07:47:50 pm »
This pretty much says it all...


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2010, 07:56:03 pm »
Japanese sticks have a much shorter throw than old Wico leafswitch stick... though I have a sneaky suspicion the Wico's would be a better fit for Robotron...

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2010, 08:03:41 pm »
Quote
You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.

 Sorry, but even SFIICe is cakewalk compared to the intensity in Robotron.  The level of accuracy needed is not very much... and many people can play SF games with a gamepad just fine. (including myself)   In fact, a digital gamepad is still a step up from a mini analog, as it takes Less physical travel to activate a switch.  Very comparable to a leafswitch found on a wico.  Try playing SF with a mini analog... now that would be ridiculous.  (which is basically what he is suggesting... and even that is easy compared to Robotron)

 So as you can see, Im not Biased.  I can and do play fighters with digital pads.  As well as the occasional use of mini analogs on certain games.  However, that does not change the facts.  Mini-Analogs simply are garbage for Robotron if you want to get anywhere past the 8th stage on a consistent basis.  

 There is a HUGE mechanical disadvantage, that goes WAY beyond the SF example.  We are talking OVER an Entire Centimeter of travel  -vs-  2mm activation on the Wicos.  That again not counting all the other disagvantages.

 You might as well just put on boxing gloves and try to play the game that way.
lol


I know an incredibly good SF2 player named Blitzfu who plays on PSN.  He uses the analog stick.  It's not ridiculous.  

Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

The main point of mine and Haze's (I believe) is that there is a level where a player is so good with a set of controls, though they may be technically inferior, that it would be stupid to throw away that familiarity for a technical advantage on new controls that might take years to develop.

Where this fits into this discussion I know not.  

*exits the thread*
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:05:30 pm by Jack Burton »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2010, 08:14:42 pm »
Wico Leaf switches... can be adjusted to activate with a litteral Hairs worth of distance.  (even closer than shown here)

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2010, 08:21:02 pm »
Quote
The main point of mine and Haze's (I believe) is that there is a level where a player is so good with a set of controls, though they may be technically inferior, that it would be stupid to throw away that familiarity for a technical advantage on new controls that might take years to develop.

 Firstly, thats ridiculous.

 Haze, by his posts, pretty much admits he Stinks at the game.  He has no developed skill, even with his lowly analogs.   AND, it wont take years to develop skill with sticks. We are talking a few hours tops to get decent.  A few weeks tops to get to stomp-level proficiency.

 This isnt like trying to learn how to drive a remote control plane/car.  Its a simple stick, with no real major complex dexterity needed at all.  In fact, the creator of the game made dual sticks because he had broke his wrist, and couldnt use the hands for complex gameplay for some time.

 Going back to the 2x longer brake pedal distance...   Apply your analogies.  They just dont hold up.

Quote
Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

 Executiuon heavy? What the heck are you talking about?!  We are talking finite movements that require split second reactions on a Constant basis.  Most notably, the actual JOYSTICK.. not button mashes.  In SF, you can sit back and hold the stick backwards to block for some time. And while doing moves, you can be charging.  The stick precision and useage isnt as much as you think. MK2&3 has much more precision & fast stick usage.

 The fact is, anywhere past like level 8... you literally cant rest. Every moment, the stick is used to dodge enemies & fire. You barely scrape by with a mere pixel to spare in most every level, several times in a level.

 Its not a complex game. SF is far more complex Obviously.  Its merely a merciless challenge of mental & physical speed, guts, and endurance.  And in a game that fast and that constantly intense, you can afford to lose any advantage at all.  The game is a wench even with the Best controller.  Which is why its pretty much regarded as one of the best classics of all time.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:35:46 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2010, 08:29:32 pm »
Xiaou2,
As probably majority of people on this forum I too agree with you about great many advantages arcade controls have over keyboards, pads and such, not to mention nostalgia, authenticity and overall "feel" or "arcade experience", but from the point Haze turned argument to "personal preference" you are only making him keep repeat one and the same thing. Everything _is relative, especially human opinions. Some people put LCD monitors in arcade cabinets, and I know a guy who eats bacon with sugar, what can you do? Laugh about it, cry about it, but eventually accept it, let it be.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 12:16:36 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #132 on: November 16, 2010, 08:54:29 pm »
abaraba, actually I agree with you.

 The reason I make the argument, is not because I do not agree with his decision to use whatever he wants... But because he states there is no advantage.  He simply does not understand the mechanics.. and because of that, his viewpoints are too skewed.

 The reason why I posted, is to make people aware of the actual mechanics, and the importance of the programmers & Engineers reasons for making & using these specific controls.

 Just about all the Classic games made were extensively tested by gamers on location... and reported on.  From that feedback, controls were tweaked, and gameplay further tweaked.  Some controllers went through many various revisions, or complete redesigns before being finalized.  

 Also, each game was balanced to near perfection.  They spent months on gameplay balance... unlike many of todays games, which spend more time on making a game look good.  This is why many classics still hold their own... and why most new games just are not worth playing.

 People can play Robotron with their Nose for all I care.  But they just cant tell me that when playing like that, that there is no difference in advantages.
I dont care how good you can get with your nose.  You will always have the potential to be lightyears better, when using a real Wico.  Not marginally better... A LOT better.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:56:19 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #133 on: November 16, 2010, 10:00:31 pm »
The reason why I posted, is to make people aware of the actual mechanics, and the importance of the programmers & Engineers reasons for making & using these specific controls.
It's true, and it's the primary reason why Robotron used 4" joystick shafts instead of commonly standard 3.5".

However....
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #134 on: November 16, 2010, 10:55:45 pm »
(Directed at no one in particular)

Thank you for keeping it civil folks!
* saint looks around suspiciously.



This has me thinking of Shultz...or perhaps more appropriately Klink...in Hogan's Heroes.


Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

In no way are these the same kind of thing.

My input on this topic:

a) I thought documenting the PCB design and function was the prime directive. Hence, this (I also admit, dodgy) game requires having the function enabled for play.

b) what would it hurt for this to be enabled by default?

c) arguing something beyond three times that someone says they don't care means 'you're out'.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 10:58:46 pm by Gray_Area »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2010, 12:50:26 am »
However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

a.) on the original PCB

b.) on the wiring harness


Look at your sentence, it uses incorrect logic. Those two are different entities and b.) is not part of a.); it's like saying bullet hit me in my head, in my arm. It does not make sense, pick one. So, was there a pin on the PCB?




Look, both PCB and harness, and whatever else, can be documented in the same time, just like they documented unknown and unused dip switches. As Haze said, just don't initialize it as "default" wiring/mapping, simple as that. Harness and and other cabinet stuff you can document and preserve with plain words, pictures and schematics. Artwork you preserve by scanning and converting to vectors. Cabinets you preserve by remaking parts, repainting, rewiring and such. That stuff does not really belong in *software* EMULATOR. On the other hand, how about they disable support for PC VGA and keyboards? I don't think any of the 80' games came with LCDs monitors, eh?


Quote
The PCB was delivered WITHOUT THAT CONNECTION MADE.  Just like how it's currently represented in MAME.  

You are talking about harness, we still do not know if there was functional pin on the PCB connector.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 01:09:32 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2010, 10:03:20 am »
Yie Ar Kung-Fu had 3 buttons instead of 2.... cool... I did not know that...I'll be sure to rememeber that the next time i see one.  :applaud:
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2010, 10:46:06 am »
Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.



I challenege you to a FULL CENTIMETER RACE!

Ok, now to use your analogy against you. First off, the brake pedal example. Did you know that you dont have to push your brake pedal all the way down to start engaging your brakes? When you start to push it, the brakes start to apply pressure to the rotors(or drums) and you can actually come to a complete stop with out the pedal to the floor.

With that in mind, now lets look at your "throw" example. In your world you have to move the analog stick to the extreme left or extreme right to go in that direction with, what I assume in your head, is a giant dead zone in between. Functionally speaking thats not accurate, that would make the analog act like a giant digital stick. You could in theory play robotron by just ever so slightly moving the sticks off center and not to the edge. Practical?No. Possible, yes.

I really dont understand why you have such a bug up your ass because Haze prefers the dual analogs, different strokes for different folks. Oddly enough, I prefer sticks for Smash TV but dual analogs for robotron. Your joystick rants are now rivially those of genesim and his LCD/CRT ones.

Just about all the Classic games made were extensively tested by gamers on location... and reported on.  From that feedback, controls were tweaked, and gameplay further tweaked.  Some controllers went through many various revisions, or complete redesigns before being finalized.  

 Also, each game was balanced to near perfection.  They spent months on gameplay balance... unlike many of todays games, which spend more time on making a game look good.  This is why many classics still hold their own... and why most new games just are not worth playing.

Citation needed.

EDIT: ACCCKKKK forgot my original reply!!!!

Back on topic, I think MAME should allow the input but just have the button unmapped. Lets take up a collection to get a Yie Ar Kung Fu boards and see if we can wire the 3rd input, Cheffo can test it, I trust him the most!  I played it in MAME because of this discussion and the game sucks with and without the button, I'd rather play Karate Champ, which Im sure is even better with ball hair accuracy WICOs
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 11:36:53 am by Malenko »
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2010, 10:49:21 am »
Wico Leaf switches... can be adjusted to activate with a litteral Hairs worth of distance.  (even closer than shown here)


But no one moves Wico's a hair... they move them to the extremes when playing Robotron.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2010, 01:54:53 pm »
However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

a.) on the original PCB

b.) on the wiring harness


Look at your sentence, it uses incorrect logic. Those two are different entities and b.) is not part of a.); it's like saying bullet hit me in my head, in my arm. It does not make sense, pick one. So, was there a pin on the PCB?

I think there was some confusion with my last post.

I had thought we had confirmed that there was no pin dedicated to that button on the board's edge connector for the wiring harness.  In that whole post, you can replace the phrase "wiring harness" with "the PCB's connector for the wiring harness".  The connection on the board is what's important.  I don't care what the actual wiring harness had on it, as that's not part of the emulated hardware.  That's all "wired up" in the control panel.   If you want to add or remove a wire, you can assign or un-assign a key or control for that function in MAME's control panel as long as there is a pin/contact/whatever  (exposed function) on that connector to add or remove a wire for. 


You are talking about harness, we still do not know if there was functional pin on the PCB connector.

I think we're somehow, oddly, arguing the same point. 


If there was a pin on the connector for the wiring harness for the 3rd button, that means that the PCB had a defined, exposed interface for button 3, and it should definitely show up on the controls screen.

If, however, there was support for a 3rd button in software, but the PCB did not have a pin on the connector for the wiring harness to allow wiring up to it, then it shouldn't be exposed in software either and shouldn't show up on the controls screen. (without a hack, just like enabling the 3rd button on that board would require a hardware hack).


As far as undocumented dip switches, if there was a dip switch bank on that board then they absolutely should be included in MAME's emulation of the hardware, regardless of the manufacturer's documentation on it.  That dip switch existed and a method of changing it (a physical switch) was presented, so a software switch should be presented for it as well in the emulated hardware.

I'm all for accuracy.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2010, 02:24:55 pm »
Quote
But no one moves Wico's a hair... they move them to the extremes when playing Robotron.

 You are correct, and its Also true of mini analogs.  Even more so because they are harder to keep control of due to less leverage & no resistance past a certain point.

 The Mini Analogs have a deadzone that is greater than the time it takes to activate a wico.

 Also, and much more importantly, If you have to move from one extreme side to the next, the mini-analog has to move twice the distance of the Wicos Period.  Even if they activate 3/4th down the way, its still much further than the Wico, and the players thumbs will Still be shot to the furthest edge... meaning that when he has to move the opposite direction, he again will be at a distance loss.  

 Distance = Reaction time.  And the further you have to travel before the thing activates... the more chance you are to getting whacked by enemy fire.

(and all this excludes all the other factors, such as increased friction from dual springs, poor leverage - whereas your entire hand can move/react faster than your slow thumb, superior stick leverage, and much more)
 
 As for the Brake example Malenko, its funny cause you dont understand the end results... and you didnt really prove me wrong.   The brake will start to engage before the end of travel, and will close to a certain level of pressure.  The further the pedal is pressed... the more pressure will be applied.  If a child ran in front of you, you cant just apply light brake force.  It has to be the FULL pressure to stop them IMMEDIATELY.  This means hitting the Floor.  

 Anyways, it doesnt matter because its explained above 'precisely'.  An analogy isnt always precise.. its just to get an idea across.

Quote
I prefer sticks for Smash TV but dual analogs for robotron.
That does not even make sense.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 02:32:33 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2010, 05:55:01 pm »
I had thought we had confirmed that there was no pin dedicated to that button on the board's edge connector for the wiring harness.  

It's still the main question of this thread.

It is recursive problem since the only source of information beside the actual PCB is MAME. So, while we are waiting to confirm this against the real hardware it is basically a question of whom do you trust more, old MAME programmers, or new, baby ones. I trust MAME would not originally fiddle with hacking out this thing if it was not there exposed as legit I/O to start with, and as much as I know how emulation is done I believe there was functional pin for it on the PCB edge connector, and Haze can maybe confirm whether otherwise would be possible to emulate/support this at all.


Quote
In that whole post, you can replace the phrase "wiring harness" with "the PCB's connector for the wiring harness".  The connection on the board is what's important.  I don't care what the actual wiring harness had on it, as that's not part of the emulated hardware.  That's all "wired up" in the control panel.   If you want to add or remove a wire, you can assign or un-assign a key or control for that function in MAME's control panel as long as there is a pin/contact/whatever  (exposed function) on that connector to add or remove a wire for.  

Yes.


Quote
I think we're somehow, oddly, arguing the same point.  

If there was a pin on the connector for the wiring harness for the 3rd button, that means that the PCB had a defined, exposed interface for button 3, and it should definitely show up on the controls screen.

If, however, there was support for a 3rd button in software, but the PCB did not have a pin on the connector for the wiring harness to allow wiring up to it, then it shouldn't be exposed in software either and shouldn't show up on the controls screen. (without a hack, just like enabling the 3rd button on that board would require a hardware hack).

Ok, I agree.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 06:23:41 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2010, 06:00:51 pm »
I rest my case.

I have no idea what are you talking about or who are you talking to, but could you tell me more about that game? What is it called in English? How many games, what games, are they licensed? Screen rotation supported, vertical/horizontal?

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2010, 07:21:03 pm »
I really dont understand why you have such a bug up your ass because Haze prefers the dual analogs, different strokes for different folks.

Haze talks about personal preference, Xiaou2 is talking about physics.

While the physics itself may be absolute, the joystick is not the only relevant mechanical construct that matters here. It is unwise to underestimate "human machine", it's flexible, adaptive, and as much as you can guarantee the physics is the same for all, you are still dealing with unknown boundaries of human abilities, not to talk about the mind and subjective perception here, plus the interesting combination of the two.

And so, while your eyes will surely help you beat many blind men in pinball, to understand that at the end it all is relative you only need to meet Tommy. Ever since I was a young boy I've played the silver ball, From Soho down to Brighton, I must have played them all, But I ain't seen nothing like him In any amusement hall, That deaf, dumb and blind kid Sure plays a mean pinball. He stands like a statue, Becomes part of the machine, Feeling all the bumpers, Always playing clean. He plays by intuition, The digit counters fall, That deaf, dumb and blind kid Sure plays a mean pinball!

He's a pinball wizard
There's got to be a twist
A pinball wizard, He's got such a supple wrist!


How do you think he does it?

- I don't know!

What makes him so good?


He ain't got no distractions
Can't hear those buzzers and bells
Don't see lights a flashin', Plays by sense of smell!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 08:47:46 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2010, 08:43:04 pm »
In what section of this forum do I post the question about Popeye PCB and those problems with non-standard power supply or something? Also, where to ask question about Green Beret PCB, which to my surprise seem to run on 30Hz. I do not have arcade monitor but SCART TV and I'm afraid it is not interlaced resolution and so this TV can not really sync to 30Hz vertical refresh. It looks like the screen gets refreshed only half the time - everything is much darker than with in any other boards or MAME, poor contrast, kind of washed out picture.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 08:47:13 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2010, 09:04:44 pm »
Quote
While the physics itself may be absolute, the joystick is not the only relevant mechanical construct that matters here. It is unwise to underestimate "human machine", it's flexible, adaptive, and as much as you can guarantee the physics is the same for all, you are still dealing with unknown boundaries of human abilities, not to talk about the mind and subjective perception here, plus the interesting combination of the two.

 Some truth to it... but when you consider that the actual physics of the human side of things also work against you in such a case... then you are fighting about 3 places of mechanical losses.

 As said, try moving your mini analog back and forth repeatedly for like 30 seconds.
The try that same thing with a stick.  You will beat the number of times, as well as be less fatigued.  Its physics of the body that counts as well... (which is why people with two good arms dont steer a car with their feet, for normal driving)

 Ive not really read up on Tommy.  But more than likely he was playing the older style EM machines.  These machines have a slower ball speed, and you can hear the ball roll across the surface of the field better.  He would also hear where the ball was hitting due to the bells and thugs on any posts... and could triangulate the general positions.  When it hit a flipper, he would feel that too. 

Turns out that many people lose a ball because they misjudge something visually, and pop a flipper up at the wrong time, which leaves an even larger hole down the center for the ball to exit.   

 And because the ball was slower, a small bump would rocket the ball 2 or more times further than a later machine.  In one game I played, you could bounce the ball from one side of the playfield to the complete opposite side with Ease.

 edit - Missed the deaf part.  (which could be partial? or misdiagnosed?)  But if thats so, then it would all boil down to vibrations and hypersensitivity w/ no distractions.   He wouldnt fare long in robotron however  ;)

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2010, 11:40:45 pm »
I rest my case.

I have no idea what are you talking about or who are you talking to, but could you tell me more about that game? What is it called in English? How many games, what games, are they licensed? Screen rotation supported, vertical/horizontal?


Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2010, 11:42:36 pm »
In what section of this forum do I post the question about Popeye PCB and those problems with non-standard power supply or something? Also, where to ask question about Green Beret PCB, which to my surprise seem to run on 30Hz. I do not have arcade monitor but SCART TV and I'm afraid it is not interlaced resolution and so this TV can not really sync to 30Hz vertical refresh. It looks like the screen gets refreshed only half the time - everything is much darker than with in any other boards or MAME, poor contrast, kind of washed out picture.
I'd try Misc Arcade:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=24.0 for the power supply question

And Monitor/video for the Green Beret issue.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2010, 12:30:11 am »
Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

Heh. That would be great, but no, seriously, I could not follow what was he responding to, and do not see anything there that says "Yie Ar Kung-Fu". In fact, I'm pretty sure that is illegal compilation with more than one game, probably running some version of MAME.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2010, 01:10:50 am »
Some truth to it... but when you consider that the actual physics of the human side of things also work against you in such a case... then you are fighting about 3 places of mechanical losses.

 As said, try moving your mini analog back and forth repeatedly for like 30 seconds.
The try that same thing with a stick.  You will beat the number of times, as well as be less fatigued.  Its physics of the body that counts as well... (which is why people with two good arms dont steer a car with their feet, for normal driving)

I was alluding to Vader's: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet, or even a whole system, is insignificant next to the power of the Force." Overcoming your childhood problems should give you more belief in this quite real mechanical adaptivity/flexibility or "compensation ability" of that "robotron/transformer" body your mind dwells in. - "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

The point is, you have to take argument back from "personal/individual" to "theoretically possible" in order to reach any meaningful conclusion. Interestingly, here, just like in the main argument of this thread about edge connector and harness, here too it is critical to understand when on thing starts, ends, and when another one begins.

Funny enough, just like PCB edge connector and harness may appear to be one entity on arcade cabinets, here your mistake is to assume the mechanical system of "person playing a game" is limited only to joystick mechanics, while, in fact, you have "mind" on one side, and joystick *together* with muscles and bones as another entity, "as a whole", on the other side , where "harness" are nerves conducting electric impulses. The point where your hand grasps a joystick handle is just another 'joint' in this combined mechanical extension of the brain, the physical/mechanical interface between the mind software and game software.


"He stands like a statue, Becomes part of the machine..."


In other words, I completely agree with what you are trying to say, but you have to rethink your phrasing if you want to "win" the argument or reach some agreement. Until then it can be argued that all the disadvantages you mentioned for those ugly analog thumb sticks can work as an advantage once the muscles and reflexes adjust to *compensate* for it. It might turn out body can adapt in such way as to use this large dead zone in its favor and minimize movement errors due to rapid change of direction, for example. You have to make the argument more general, statistical, there must be a room for that exception that proves the rule, you know?
 
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2010, 01:44:59 am »
Quote
It might turn out body can adapt in such way as to use this large dead zone in its favor and minimize movement errors due to rapid change of direction, for example.

 Get real man.  Thats completely ridiculous and illogical.

 
 PBJ posted a pic, but the buttons are not labeled.  The extra button shown could be a start button or something.. even as unlikely as it may seem...

 It does bring up a point... Has anyone looked at the Japanese manuals?

 And when you consider that... then you realize..  Does anyone have a picture of the Japanese machines?  Artwork?  Manuals?  Anything? 

 It seems like there is a huge missing part of history, most especially where a lot of things originated. A lot of the Japanese cabs have alternate art, construction, and in the case of Yie Ar, could be changes in gameplay / controls.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2010, 04:22:50 am »
Get real man.  Thats completely ridiculous and illogical.

Not for the pinball wizard, he's got such a supple wrist! What is your claim, what is it you want people to agree with? There is no person on this planet who can beat your score in Robotron with thumb-sticks? There is no chance Robotron world record can be set by anyone using thumb-sticks, ever, never?
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2010, 09:42:23 am »
Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

Heh. That would be great, but no, seriously, I could not follow what was he responding to, and do not see anything there that says "Yie Ar Kung-Fu". In fact, I'm pretty sure that is illegal compilation with more than one game, probably running some version of MAME.

Well I'm pretty sure that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Google this phrase:  Yie Ar Kung-Fu playstation game

Click the top link.  http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/929209-oretachi-game-center-zoku-yie-ar-kung-fu

Look at the picture on the top right, that's the picture that was posted here.  It's the game in question (Yie Ar Kung-Fu) for the PS2.  I have no idea why you think it's an illegal compilation.  That's just idiotic to jump to that conclusion based off a picture.  X now has a competitor for biggest blind assumption without any proof.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2010, 10:36:49 am »
Are you making fun of yourself or you just blind?




I actually have the CD I was talking about, it's very similar cover, colorful Kanji and all.

EDIT: Found the CD, it turns out I have exactly those games, only there are many games on my one CD, here's Volume 5:  
- Scramble, Crazy Climber, Karate Dou, Time Pilot, Moon Cresta, Sonic Wings, Burger Time, Yie Ar Kung-Fu, Super Volleyball, Terra Cresta, Quarth, Kunio-Kun,Dodgeball Bu, Rabio Lepus, Akuma-Jou Dracula, Contra, Pooyan, Thunder Cross and Trio The Punch
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 11:21:15 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2010, 10:46:35 am »
I stand corrected as I didn't look that closely at the picture. 

Anyway, why are you angry at me, again?

Another assumption.  But I still don't see the reasoning behind assuming it's Mame.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2010, 11:16:12 am »
 Photoshopped.

heh.   I could tell the 3rd button spacing was different in PBJs pic, but its only now that I notice the shoddy edgework on the left side where the edit was done.


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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2010, 11:32:40 am »
Quote
Another assumption.  But I still don't see the reasoning behind assuming it's Mame.

You are assuming that I am assuming, but I am not assuming, so you are the one who is assuming, not me, you. Those are not ports or remakes, those games are clearly emulated, with all the test screens and garbled graphics on boot, MAME control panels and everything. I can tell you, you assumption making type of person, where you can download this CD, if it is not against some rules.


Xiaou2,
It maybe artifacts due to jpg compression, he would not need to photoshop as every game has its own little cocktail picture, so that's probably just some other game that does have three buttons officially. 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 11:42:09 am by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2010, 01:39:31 pm »
I'd love to get all of you into a room with a couple kegs, mandatory shots every 10 minutes and see what happens.
NO MORE!!

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2010, 01:52:58 pm »
I'd love to get all of you into a room with a couple kegs, mandatory shots every 10 minutes and see what happens.
100 in a 100? 

 :cheers:

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2010, 01:56:29 pm »
I'll bring the jager
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2010, 04:30:13 pm »
I wouldn't take anything from anyone on BYOAC unless it was sealed and I opened it myself and kept it in my hands at all times.


 :-\


Just saying.



Yea, yea. You'd probably have 2 shots and be running around in your underwear with a lamp shade on your head.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2010, 07:53:19 pm »
I figure Oretachi Multi-Game CD I have is illegal compilation. Originally each game was released individually and I checked few cover scans, it does say "Licensed by Konami". Would not that be the 1st time these companies license games, don't they always release their own "arcade hits"? Perhaps the games are licensed, but what in the world are MAME control panels doing there? Why is there option to change orientation from horizontal to vertical and fiddle with dip switches in a PS2 game?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 08:03:16 pm by abaraba »
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #162 on: November 19, 2010, 08:58:09 am »
As for the Brake example Malenko, its funny cause you dont understand the end results... and you didnt really prove me wrong.   The brake will start to engage before the end of travel, and will close to a certain level of pressure.  The further the pedal is pressed... the more pressure will be applied.  If a child ran in front of you, you cant just apply light brake force.  It has to be the FULL pressure to stop them IMMEDIATELY.  This means hitting the Floor.  

Quote
I prefer sticks for Smash TV but dual analogs for robotron.
That does not even make sense.


I don't understand the end results?  I used to work for Chrysler in the factory, installing brake systems among other things for almost a decade; so yeah , I understand how brakes work. Yes the brakes will engage before the end of the travel, just like the analog stick with start moving the character before the end of the travel. Its not digital, it doesn't have to go all the way to the end to start working. If a child ran out in front of me I could stop without slamming my brakes because odds are I'd be in a neighborhood and not driving fast, if I was on the highway they deserve to be hit.

My preference doesn't have to make sense for you. I am better at smash TV on my MAME cab then my xbox360, I am better at robotron on my 360 then on my MAME cab. So that's my preference. You not understanding it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Also, please tell me how a digital stick is more precise then an analog one. Last time I got in an airplane and looked in the cockpit they weren't flying the thing with WICOs. Also, citation is needed for your replies. I'd prefer facts over opinions. Again, you never cited where you got the fact of them testing arcade machines for months on location and changing out controls. I'm deeply interested on which games did then and the details of them. (this part actually INS'T sarcasm)

I have attached a HORRIBLE mock up of how analog works.



Ray: Kegs and shot? as in shots of beer? garner can bring the jager I'll bring the redbull! (or soco and lime)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 09:25:53 am by Malenko »
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #163 on: November 19, 2010, 10:18:26 am »
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abaraba

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #164 on: November 20, 2010, 01:19:39 am »
Ok, finally... I got the answer at KLOV forum.


--- QUOTE:
To test, I just wired it up on my test bench. The Konami-to-JAMMA adaptor I made has the third button already hooked up (for Super Basketball), so I could just pop it in my JAMMA cab and play. If you want to try it out in your Yie Ar Kung-Fu cab, you could just run a jumper wire from pin N to pin E (1P Start) on the harness and have the Start button double as the third button. Probably not a good layout for playing, but at least you could try it out. Here's the pinout:
Code: [Select]
 NC                  | A | 1 |   +12V
 Speaker             | B | 2 |   Speaker
 2P Button 2 (Punch) | C | 3 |   2P Button 1 (Kick)
 2P Left             | D | 4 |   2P Right
 1P Start            | E | 5 |   2P Start
 1P Button 1 (Kick)  | F | 6 |   2P Up
 1P Button 2 (Punch) | H | 7 |   Service
 1P Right            | J | 8 |   1P Left
 1P Up               | K | 9 |   2P Down
 Coin 1              | L | 10|   Coin 2
 1P Down             | M | 11|   Coin Counter 1
 1P Button 3 (Boost?)| N | 12|   Coin Counter 2
 Video Green         | P | 13|   Video Blue
 Video Red           | R | 14|   Video Sync
 NC                  | S | 15|   2P Button 3 (Boost?)
 GND                 | T | 16|   GND
 GND                 | U | 17|   GND
 +5V                 | V | 18|   +5V
--- END QUOTE.
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Siris

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #165 on: November 20, 2010, 01:54:43 am »
Ummm, Yeah that is exactly what I told you after looking at the schematics days ago!
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 01:56:47 am by Siris »

abaraba

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #166 on: November 20, 2010, 04:32:56 am »
Ummm, Yeah that is exactly what I told you after looking at the schematics days ago!

I know, that's what makes it worse, you actually believed it was there and still you supported they undocumented it in MAME. What's your point anyway, are you asserting your words should be taken as some "proof" or "evidence"? How do you not see all my reasoning, as I explained several times and underlined with insults, was based exactly on that one assumption? Read the thread, before you said it we already established there are unused pins that could serve for it. 


Anyway, you still have the same opinion? Documenting 'operators manual' (PDF), in software emulator has not only more importance over documenting the PCB, but it also is the reason to undocument functionality of the PCB edge connector?




--- Blah, blah, blah...
I had no idea any arcade enthusiast can dislike this game. I would maybe too, for example, rate Donkey Kong higher than Yie Ar, and many more games would get in front of it on my "top-list", but it just happens to be the game I can always have a go at, while I do not play many of my "favorites" at all. I'd just be bored with Donkey Kong, I could play it long time and that now has opposite effect, when before it was the reason to play the game.

Yie Ar has complexity, you can make up different tactics and chose between many moves. It's quite challenging and only once you master it enough to at least fight with all the opponents in the game, only then you can appreciate its gameplay, plus nice variety of opponents and styles.
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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #167 on: November 20, 2010, 08:34:03 am »
Ok, so I just downloaded mame version 103 to see what the jump button really was... and if it was needed

1) It is VERY buggy... jump doesn't always jump... at all... (mame bug?)
2) It DOES seem to jump different directions then the normal jump

Not worth keeping another version of mame around, even with a webmame that allows for transparent extra emulators.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2010, 11:23:56 am »
Tafold responded in the KLOV thread... it's been added to the next version of MAME.  Congrats OP... boo to all the detractors... how's it feel to be wrong?

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2010, 11:25:23 am »
Ok, finally... I got the answer at KLOV forum.

I saw that ... interesting and I, for one, retract my objection, although I would support the 3rd button not being mapped by default.

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Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2010, 08:46:51 pm »
1) It is VERY buggy... jump doesn't always jump... at all... (mame bug?)

Are you familiar with the game enough to say that?
Perhaps keyboard trouble due to "ghosting/blocking"?

Try holding the 3rd button and then input any of the 8 possible directions, that should work every time, but have in mind the jump is relative to which side you are facing and where the opponent is, also some of those jumps look like standard jump, and 3rd button+DOWN can change the direction you are facing, or something... so many mysteries, like with the real Kung-Fu, can you master the style and rule to game?

For example, I just learned yesterday there is "dodge" (BACK+UP), and I can see some animation that looks like "block", but while I know you can block stars, fans and chain by hitting them in the right moment, I do not know if it is possible to block kicks and punches, hmmm?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 08:55:33 pm by abaraba »
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