Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!

[nipsmg]

Now, to fully and properly DOCUMENT a PCB via emulation, the driver must INCLUDE all the Inputs/Outputs present on the actual PCB, it also must SUPPORT those virtual pins can be virtually wired or "mapped" in control panel, just like all the other I/O (test, service, dip switches), otherwise it's simply not documented.

Yes, that control panel in MAME, where you set "game default keys", that is supposed to be a document describing PCB connector pin-out, so once Luigi removed "support" for those pins, he undocumented the PCB I/O in favor of documenting the harness.

This is where I disagree and say that the way the MAME team did it MORE FAITHFULLY documents the board. 

I equate the control panel in MAME to the pinout for the wiring harness.  This is where you can say " take this exposed connection that you've given me access to on this wiring harness, and use this wire to connect it to this control.".   However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

However, there was a hardware hack you could do that involves wiring that interface to the harness yourself to expose that functionality to the wiring harness.  At that point (after the hack/patch) you could then assign a button to it.

On the MAME Control panel, you can currently directly wire up all of the inputs that were exposed on the original PCB through the wiring harness.    However, just like on the original PCB, if you want to expose the 3rd button, you have to expose that interface yourself through a hack/patch.  You can wire from the emulated input processing chip (The hardware chip on the board) to the wiring harness (Control Panel) by putting in the patch I mentioned before (wire connection from pin to wiring harness).  The PCB was delivered WITHOUT THAT CONNECTION MADE.  Just like how it's currently represented in MAME. 

MAME emulates the software and hardware faithfully, which allows you hook up that extra, non-supplied connection by putting in the patch that you want.  Just like you'd have to ADD A JUMPER WIRE TO THE ORIGINAL BOARD to get that functionality in the real hardware you have to ADD SOME JUMPER CODE to the emulated hardware to expose the functionality as well.

[eds1275]

Totally off topic, but random capital letters mid-sentence is almost as bad as posting in all caps. If you don't know how to use them, don't.

[nipsmg]

@pinballjim:  That's your opinion, but you also succeeded in adding nothing to the discussion.

One of the great things about MAME is that it faithfully documents the underlying hardware.  I'm not going to jump on that bandwagon that says "it's all about documentation and not about playing games", because that's just idiotic.  If the end result wasn't playable games, then there wouldn't be any real interest in the project whatsoever.

However, I like the fact that MAME doesn't take shortcuts to make games more playable.  There are tons of software hacks, dynamic recompilation, and other tricks that they could use to make some of the more graphics intensive games run much more quickly than they do now.  However, that would not be true emulation and documentation of the hardware, and they've decided against it.   If you don't agree with that for certain games, there are generally other emulators (i.e. Model2 emulator, Nebula, etc) that are made for certain systems that run games very faithfully and much faster, but they use graphics acceleration and other methods to speed it up.

The MAME team was alterted to the fact that although the code of the game supports a 3rd button, that interface was not exposed on the original PCB.  They then went in and removed that exposed interface.  They didn't remove all ability to ever get to it, they just decided that since they were faithfully representing the hardware in software form, that in its original state there was no interface to that control, so they wouldn't provide it either.

That's one of the things I like about MAME.  Some people don't like that aspect of it.  However, the fact that you don't agree with MAME's stance on strict hardware emulation doesn't make my original post any less correct.

[saint]

(Directed at no one in particular)

Thank you for keeping it civil folks!

* saint looks around suspiciously.

[DaveMMR]

Wow... I never realized Yie Ar Kung-Fu was such a controversial game. 

[Xiaou2]

If your Brake pedal is twice as long, and takes twice the amount of time to get it to react... means you are always at a disadvantage.

 Just because you hit children with your car because you dont react to them at all, does not mean that your choice of brake pedal is making that situation any better.

 Its simple physics that you cant have a brake pedal twice at long in travel, and expect the same results as one with a shorter travel.  At some point in time, weather you realize it or not, you Are dying because of a delay in reaction time.  A death that would have been averted with a controller much more sensitive to quick changes.

 And if you are barely good enough to get to the point where this comes into play, eventually it will.  And most especially will come into play for people who actually progress past the baby level stages.

Far from it, I think you seriously underestimate how sensitive most analog controls are.  They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other, not to mention they're a lot more comfortable than annoying sticks.

 Jeez man, you really are kidding right?!  I have used mini analogs FOREVER!  Ive been into games since the Vic20 days, right on to PS2 and up.  I also have a Saitek p880  ps2 clone gamepad for the PC.   Ive also played with the latest console mini analogs.  Its all the same technology, and nothing new at all.

 You think your talking to some Noob.  Im older, and wiser pal.  I have more experience and time with games and controllers than you. Including my time fixing the things in the arcades for Years.  Ive also Built my own controllers from scratch... which shows how well I understand the mechanics and physics of such things.

They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other

 This shows that you dont know how to Read.  And you are so ignorant and wrapped up in your own delusions to actually realize your misunderstandings.

 Size of the mini analog does not matter.  You still have move the thing MORE than the larger stick!!!!!!   Its called "THROW".  The throw of an analog is far greater than that of a wico leaf. FAR FAR FAR Greater!

 

I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other

 But you WILL.  WhY?  Because the horrible leverage they offer.  Once you get past the the deadzone, where the spring is tightest... you completely overcome the spring force, and slip to the edge way too easily.  Most especially when you are under extreme pressure.
 
 Now, if you have Ever used a laptop that has one of those tiny analog mouse controllers that are on the keyboard (IBM thinkpads)... you would notice that the pressure to move them is constant, and even ever-increasing as you exit the centerpoint.  If it were more like gamepads analog, your mouse pointer would be uncontrollable and all over the place.  You would constantly overshoot the targets, because the friction is too light to maintain good control.  These laptop analog differ mechanically, which make them suitable for highly accurate positioning.

 A mini analog could just as easily be modified mechanically to replicate this same level of accuracy.. however, that would at the same time cause too much fatigue and slower reaction times.  This is why the Wicos rubber centerpoint-pivot-spring is far superior.  It allows quick motions without huge center-friction.

 A larger analog stick solves the mini sloppy control problems, by sheer stick length.  The added length gives a person superior leverage and ability to hold positions accurately and easily.  That isnt the case of the minis.  Game programmers have to actually make a games input less sensitive on purpose, because the minis have such bad control. (even though they are just as sensitive as the large pot versions)

You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.

 Sorry, but even SFIICe is cakewalk compared to the intensity in Robotron.  The level of accuracy needed is not very much... and many people can play SF games with a gamepad just fine. (including myself)   In fact, a digital gamepad is still a step up from a mini analog, as it takes Less physical travel to activate a switch.  Very comparable to a leafswitch found on a wico.  Try playing SF with a mini analog... now that would be ridiculous.  (which is basically what he is suggesting... and even that is easy compared to Robotron)

 So as you can see, Im not Biased.  I can and do play fighters with digital pads.  As well as the occasional use of mini analogs on certain games.  However, that does not change the facts.  Mini-Analogs simply are garbage for Robotron if you want to get anywhere past the 8th stage on a consistent basis. 

 There is a HUGE mechanical disadvantage, that goes WAY beyond the SF example.  We are talking OVER an Entire Centimeter of travel  -vs-  2mm activation on the Wicos.  That again not counting all the other disagvantages.

 You might as well just put on boxing gloves and try to play the game that way.
lol

[Xiaou2]

This pretty much says it all...

[FrizzleFried]

Japanese sticks have a much shorter throw than old Wico leafswitch stick... though I have a sneaky suspicion the Wico's would be a better fit for Robotron...

[Jack Burton]

You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.

 Sorry, but even SFIICe is cakewalk compared to the intensity in Robotron.  The level of accuracy needed is not very much... and many people can play SF games with a gamepad just fine. (including myself)   In fact, a digital gamepad is still a step up from a mini analog, as it takes Less physical travel to activate a switch.  Very comparable to a leafswitch found on a wico.  Try playing SF with a mini analog... now that would be ridiculous.  (which is basically what he is suggesting... and even that is easy compared to Robotron)

 So as you can see, Im not Biased.  I can and do play fighters with digital pads.  As well as the occasional use of mini analogs on certain games.  However, that does not change the facts.  Mini-Analogs simply are garbage for Robotron if you want to get anywhere past the 8th stage on a consistent basis.  

 There is a HUGE mechanical disadvantage, that goes WAY beyond the SF example.  We are talking OVER an Entire Centimeter of travel  -vs-  2mm activation on the Wicos.  That again not counting all the other disagvantages.

 You might as well just put on boxing gloves and try to play the game that way.
lol

I know an incredibly good SF2 player named Blitzfu who plays on PSN.  He uses the analog stick.  It's not ridiculous.  

Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

The main point of mine and Haze's (I believe) is that there is a level where a player is so good with a set of controls, though they may be technically inferior, that it would be stupid to throw away that familiarity for a technical advantage on new controls that might take years to develop.

Where this fits into this discussion I know not.  

*exits the thread*

[Xiaou2]

Wico Leaf switches... can be adjusted to activate with a litteral Hairs worth of distance.  (even closer than shown here)

[Xiaou2]

The main point of mine and Haze's (I believe) is that there is a level where a player is so good with a set of controls, though they may be technically inferior, that it would be stupid to throw away that familiarity for a technical advantage on new controls that might take years to develop.

 Firstly, thats ridiculous.

 Haze, by his posts, pretty much admits he Stinks at the game.  He has no developed skill, even with his lowly analogs.   AND, it wont take years to develop skill with sticks. We are talking a few hours tops to get decent.  A few weeks tops to get to stomp-level proficiency.

 This isnt like trying to learn how to drive a remote control plane/car.  Its a simple stick, with no real major complex dexterity needed at all.  In fact, the creator of the game made dual sticks because he had broke his wrist, and couldnt use the hands for complex gameplay for some time.

 Going back to the 2x longer brake pedal distance...   Apply your analogies.  They just dont hold up.

Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

 Executiuon heavy? What the heck are you talking about?!  We are talking finite movements that require split second reactions on a Constant basis.  Most notably, the actual JOYSTICK.. not button mashes.  In SF, you can sit back and hold the stick backwards to block for some time. And while doing moves, you can be charging.  The stick precision and useage isnt as much as you think. MK2&3 has much more precision & fast stick usage.

 The fact is, anywhere past like level 8... you literally cant rest. Every moment, the stick is used to dodge enemies & fire. You barely scrape by with a mere pixel to spare in most every level, several times in a level.

 Its not a complex game. SF is far more complex Obviously.  Its merely a merciless challenge of mental & physical speed, guts, and endurance.  And in a game that fast and that constantly intense, you can afford to lose any advantage at all.  The game is a wench even with the Best controller.  Which is why its pretty much regarded as one of the best classics of all time.

[abaraba]

Xiaou2,
As probably majority of people on this forum I too agree with you about great many advantages arcade controls have over keyboards, pads and such, not to mention nostalgia, authenticity and overall "feel" or "arcade experience", but from the point Haze turned argument to "personal preference" you are only making him keep repeat one and the same thing. Everything _is relative, especially human opinions. Some people put LCD monitors in arcade cabinets, and I know a guy who eats bacon with sugar, what can you do? Laugh about it, cry about it, but eventually accept it, let it be.

[Xiaou2]

abaraba, actually I agree with you.

 The reason I make the argument, is not because I do not agree with his decision to use whatever he wants... But because he states there is no advantage.  He simply does not understand the mechanics.. and because of that, his viewpoints are too skewed.

 The reason why I posted, is to make people aware of the actual mechanics, and the importance of the programmers & Engineers reasons for making & using these specific controls.

 Just about all the Classic games made were extensively tested by gamers on location... and reported on.  From that feedback, controls were tweaked, and gameplay further tweaked.  Some controllers went through many various revisions, or complete redesigns before being finalized.  

 Also, each game was balanced to near perfection.  They spent months on gameplay balance... unlike many of todays games, which spend more time on making a game look good.  This is why many classics still hold their own... and why most new games just are not worth playing.

 People can play Robotron with their Nose for all I care.  But they just cant tell me that when playing like that, that there is no difference in advantages.
I dont care how good you can get with your nose.  You will always have the potential to be lightyears better, when using a real Wico.  Not marginally better... A LOT better.

[RayB]

The reason why I posted, is to make people aware of the actual mechanics, and the importance of the programmers & Engineers reasons for making & using these specific controls.

It's true, and it's the primary reason why Robotron used 4" joystick shafts instead of commonly standard 3.5".

However....

[Gray_Area]

(Directed at no one in particular)

Thank you for keeping it civil folks!

* saint looks around suspiciously.

This has me thinking of Shultz...or perhaps more appropriately Klink...in Hogan's Heroes.

Additionally if you believe any session of Robotron, perhaps even a world record attempt, to be more intense and execution-heavy than the final matches of the national championship of SF2 then you are delusional.

In no way are these the same kind of thing.

My input on this topic:

a) I thought documenting the PCB design and function was the prime directive. Hence, this (I also admit, dodgy) game requires having the function enabled for play.

b) what would it hurt for this to be enabled by default?

c) arguing something beyond three times that someone says they don't care means 'you're out'.

[abaraba]

However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

a.) on the original PCB

b.) on the wiring harness


Look at your sentence, it uses incorrect logic. Those two are different entities and b.) is not part of a.); it's like saying bullet hit me in my head, in my arm. It does not make sense, pick one. So, was there a pin on the PCB?




Look, both PCB and harness, and whatever else, can be documented in the same time, just like they documented unknown and unused dip switches. As Haze said, just don't initialize it as "default" wiring/mapping, simple as that. Harness and and other cabinet stuff you can document and preserve with plain words, pictures and schematics. Artwork you preserve by scanning and converting to vectors. Cabinets you preserve by remaking parts, repainting, rewiring and such. That stuff does not really belong in *software* EMULATOR. On the other hand, how about they disable support for PC VGA and keyboards? I don't think any of the 80' games came with LCDs monitors, eh?

The PCB was delivered WITHOUT THAT CONNECTION MADE.  Just like how it's currently represented in MAME.  

You are talking about harness, we still do not know if there was functional pin on the PCB connector.

[garnerb350]

Yie Ar Kung-Fu had 3 buttons instead of 2.... cool... I did not know that...I'll be sure to rememeber that the next time i see one. 

[Malenko]

Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.

I challenege you to a FULL CENTIMETER RACE!

Ok, now to use your analogy against you. First off, the brake pedal example. Did you know that you dont have to push your brake pedal all the way down to start engaging your brakes? When you start to push it, the brakes start to apply pressure to the rotors(or drums) and you can actually come to a complete stop with out the pedal to the floor.

With that in mind, now lets look at your "throw" example. In your world you have to move the analog stick to the extreme left or extreme right to go in that direction with, what I assume in your head, is a giant dead zone in between. Functionally speaking thats not accurate, that would make the analog act like a giant digital stick. You could in theory play robotron by just ever so slightly moving the sticks off center and not to the edge. Practical?No. Possible, yes.

I really dont understand why you have such a bug up your ass because Haze prefers the dual analogs, different strokes for different folks. Oddly enough, I prefer sticks for Smash TV but dual analogs for robotron. Your joystick rants are now rivially those of genesim and his LCD/CRT ones.

Just about all the Classic games made were extensively tested by gamers on location... and reported on.  From that feedback, controls were tweaked, and gameplay further tweaked.  Some controllers went through many various revisions, or complete redesigns before being finalized.  

 Also, each game was balanced to near perfection.  They spent months on gameplay balance... unlike many of todays games, which spend more time on making a game look good.  This is why many classics still hold their own... and why most new games just are not worth playing.

Citation needed.

EDIT: ACCCKKKK forgot my original reply!!!!

Back on topic, I think MAME should allow the input but just have the button unmapped. Lets take up a collection to get a Yie Ar Kung Fu boards and see if we can wire the 3rd input, Cheffo can test it, I trust him the most!  I played it in MAME because of this discussion and the game sucks with and without the button, I'd rather play Karate Champ, which Im sure is even better with ball hair accuracy WICOs

[FrizzleFried]

Wico Leaf switches... can be adjusted to activate with a litteral Hairs worth of distance.  (even closer than shown here)

But no one moves Wico's a hair... they move them to the extremes when playing Robotron.

[nipsmg]

However, on the original PCB's, there was never a pin on the wiring harness that allowed you to hook up to the 3rd button.

a.) on the original PCB

b.) on the wiring harness


Look at your sentence, it uses incorrect logic. Those two are different entities and b.) is not part of a.); it's like saying bullet hit me in my head, in my arm. It does not make sense, pick one. So, was there a pin on the PCB?

I think there was some confusion with my last post.

I had thought we had confirmed that there was no pin dedicated to that button on the board's edge connector for the wiring harness.  In that whole post, you can replace the phrase "wiring harness" with "the PCB's connector for the wiring harness".  The connection on the board is what's important.  I don't care what the actual wiring harness had on it, as that's not part of the emulated hardware.  That's all "wired up" in the control panel.   If you want to add or remove a wire, you can assign or un-assign a key or control for that function in MAME's control panel as long as there is a pin/contact/whatever  (exposed function) on that connector to add or remove a wire for. 

You are talking about harness, we still do not know if there was functional pin on the PCB connector.

I think we're somehow, oddly, arguing the same point. 


If there was a pin on the connector for the wiring harness for the 3rd button, that means that the PCB had a defined, exposed interface for button 3, and it should definitely show up on the controls screen.

If, however, there was support for a 3rd button in software, but the PCB did not have a pin on the connector for the wiring harness to allow wiring up to it, then it shouldn't be exposed in software either and shouldn't show up on the controls screen. (without a hack, just like enabling the 3rd button on that board would require a hardware hack).


As far as undocumented dip switches, if there was a dip switch bank on that board then they absolutely should be included in MAME's emulation of the hardware, regardless of the manufacturer's documentation on it.  That dip switch existed and a method of changing it (a physical switch) was presented, so a software switch should be presented for it as well in the emulated hardware.

I'm all for accuracy.

[Xiaou2]

But no one moves Wico's a hair... they move them to the extremes when playing Robotron.

 You are correct, and its Also true of mini analogs.  Even more so because they are harder to keep control of due to less leverage & no resistance past a certain point.

 The Mini Analogs have a deadzone that is greater than the time it takes to activate a wico.

 Also, and much more importantly, If you have to move from one extreme side to the next, the mini-analog has to move twice the distance of the Wicos Period.  Even if they activate 3/4th down the way, its still much further than the Wico, and the players thumbs will Still be shot to the furthest edge... meaning that when he has to move the opposite direction, he again will be at a distance loss.  

 Distance = Reaction time.  And the further you have to travel before the thing activates... the more chance you are to getting whacked by enemy fire.

(and all this excludes all the other factors, such as increased friction from dual springs, poor leverage - whereas your entire hand can move/react faster than your slow thumb, superior stick leverage, and much more)
 
 As for the Brake example Malenko, its funny cause you dont understand the end results... and you didnt really prove me wrong.   The brake will start to engage before the end of travel, and will close to a certain level of pressure.  The further the pedal is pressed... the more pressure will be applied.  If a child ran in front of you, you cant just apply light brake force.  It has to be the FULL pressure to stop them IMMEDIATELY.  This means hitting the Floor.  

 Anyways, it doesnt matter because its explained above 'precisely'.  An analogy isnt always precise.. its just to get an idea across.

I prefer sticks for Smash TV but dual analogs for robotron.

That does not even make sense.

[abaraba]

I had thought we had confirmed that there was no pin dedicated to that button on the board's edge connector for the wiring harness.  

It's still the main question of this thread.

It is recursive problem since the only source of information beside the actual PCB is MAME. So, while we are waiting to confirm this against the real hardware it is basically a question of whom do you trust more, old MAME programmers, or new, baby ones. I trust MAME would not originally fiddle with hacking out this thing if it was not there exposed as legit I/O to start with, and as much as I know how emulation is done I believe there was functional pin for it on the PCB edge connector, and Haze can maybe confirm whether otherwise would be possible to emulate/support this at all.

In that whole post, you can replace the phrase "wiring harness" with "the PCB's connector for the wiring harness".  The connection on the board is what's important.  I don't care what the actual wiring harness had on it, as that's not part of the emulated hardware.  That's all "wired up" in the control panel.   If you want to add or remove a wire, you can assign or un-assign a key or control for that function in MAME's control panel as long as there is a pin/contact/whatever  (exposed function) on that connector to add or remove a wire for.  

Yes.

I think we're somehow, oddly, arguing the same point.  

If there was a pin on the connector for the wiring harness for the 3rd button, that means that the PCB had a defined, exposed interface for button 3, and it should definitely show up on the controls screen.

If, however, there was support for a 3rd button in software, but the PCB did not have a pin on the connector for the wiring harness to allow wiring up to it, then it shouldn't be exposed in software either and shouldn't show up on the controls screen. (without a hack, just like enabling the 3rd button on that board would require a hardware hack).

Ok, I agree.

[abaraba]

I rest my case.

I have no idea what are you talking about or who are you talking to, but could you tell me more about that game? What is it called in English? How many games, what games, are they licensed? Screen rotation supported, vertical/horizontal?

[abaraba]

I really dont understand why you have such a bug up your ass because Haze prefers the dual analogs, different strokes for different folks.

Haze talks about personal preference, Xiaou2 is talking about physics.

While the physics itself may be absolute, the joystick is not the only relevant mechanical construct that matters here. It is unwise to underestimate "human machine", it's flexible, adaptive, and as much as you can guarantee the physics is the same for all, you are still dealing with unknown boundaries of human abilities, not to talk about the mind and subjective perception here, plus the interesting combination of the two.

And so, while your eyes will surely help you beat many blind men in pinball, to understand that at the end it all is relative you only need to meet Tommy. Ever since I was a young boy I've played the silver ball, From Soho down to Brighton, I must have played them all, But I ain't seen nothing like him In any amusement hall, That deaf, dumb and blind kid Sure plays a mean pinball. He stands like a statue, Becomes part of the machine, Feeling all the bumpers, Always playing clean. He plays by intuition, The digit counters fall, That deaf, dumb and blind kid Sure plays a mean pinball!

He's a pinball wizard
There's got to be a twist
A pinball wizard, He's got such a supple wrist!


How do you think he does it?

- I don't know!

What makes him so good?


He ain't got no distractions
Can't hear those buzzers and bells
Don't see lights a flashin', Plays by sense of smell!

[abaraba]

In what section of this forum do I post the question about Popeye PCB and those problems with non-standard power supply or something? Also, where to ask question about Green Beret PCB, which to my surprise seem to run on 30Hz. I do not have arcade monitor but SCART TV and I'm afraid it is not interlaced resolution and so this TV can not really sync to 30Hz vertical refresh. It looks like the screen gets refreshed only half the time - everything is much darker than with in any other boards or MAME, poor contrast, kind of washed out picture.

[Xiaou2]

While the physics itself may be absolute, the joystick is not the only relevant mechanical construct that matters here. It is unwise to underestimate "human machine", it's flexible, adaptive, and as much as you can guarantee the physics is the same for all, you are still dealing with unknown boundaries of human abilities, not to talk about the mind and subjective perception here, plus the interesting combination of the two.

 Some truth to it... but when you consider that the actual physics of the human side of things also work against you in such a case... then you are fighting about 3 places of mechanical losses.

 As said, try moving your mini analog back and forth repeatedly for like 30 seconds.
The try that same thing with a stick.  You will beat the number of times, as well as be less fatigued.  Its physics of the body that counts as well... (which is why people with two good arms dont steer a car with their feet, for normal driving)

 Ive not really read up on Tommy.  But more than likely he was playing the older style EM machines.  These machines have a slower ball speed, and you can hear the ball roll across the surface of the field better.  He would also hear where the ball was hitting due to the bells and thugs on any posts... and could triangulate the general positions.  When it hit a flipper, he would feel that too. 

Turns out that many people lose a ball because they misjudge something visually, and pop a flipper up at the wrong time, which leaves an even larger hole down the center for the ball to exit.   

 And because the ball was slower, a small bump would rocket the ball 2 or more times further than a later machine.  In one game I played, you could bounce the ball from one side of the playfield to the complete opposite side with Ease.

 edit - Missed the deaf part.  (which could be partial? or misdiagnosed?)  But if thats so, then it would all boil down to vibrations and hypersensitivity w/ no distractions.   He wouldnt fare long in robotron however 

[Hoopz]

I rest my case.

I have no idea what are you talking about or who are you talking to, but could you tell me more about that game? What is it called in English? How many games, what games, are they licensed? Screen rotation supported, vertical/horizontal?

Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

[Hoopz]

In what section of this forum do I post the question about Popeye PCB and those problems with non-standard power supply or something? Also, where to ask question about Green Beret PCB, which to my surprise seem to run on 30Hz. I do not have arcade monitor but SCART TV and I'm afraid it is not interlaced resolution and so this TV can not really sync to 30Hz vertical refresh. It looks like the screen gets refreshed only half the time - everything is much darker than with in any other boards or MAME, poor contrast, kind of washed out picture.

I'd try Misc Arcade:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=24.0 for the power supply question

And Monitor/video for the Green Beret issue.

[abaraba]

Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

Heh. That would be great, but no, seriously, I could not follow what was he responding to, and do not see anything there that says "Yie Ar Kung-Fu". In fact, I'm pretty sure that is illegal compilation with more than one game, probably running some version of MAME.

[abaraba]

Some truth to it... but when you consider that the actual physics of the human side of things also work against you in such a case... then you are fighting about 3 places of mechanical losses.

 As said, try moving your mini analog back and forth repeatedly for like 30 seconds.
The try that same thing with a stick.  You will beat the number of times, as well as be less fatigued.  Its physics of the body that counts as well... (which is why people with two good arms dont steer a car with their feet, for normal driving)

I was alluding to Vader's: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet, or even a whole system, is insignificant next to the power of the Force." Overcoming your childhood problems should give you more belief in this quite real mechanical adaptivity/flexibility or "compensation ability" of that "robotron/transformer" body your mind dwells in. - "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

The point is, you have to take argument back from "personal/individual" to "theoretically possible" in order to reach any meaningful conclusion. Interestingly, here, just like in the main argument of this thread about edge connector and harness, here too it is critical to understand when on thing starts, ends, and when another one begins.

Funny enough, just like PCB edge connector and harness may appear to be one entity on arcade cabinets, here your mistake is to assume the mechanical system of "person playing a game" is limited only to joystick mechanics, while, in fact, you have "mind" on one side, and joystick *together* with muscles and bones as another entity, "as a whole", on the other side , where "harness" are nerves conducting electric impulses. The point where your hand grasps a joystick handle is just another 'joint' in this combined mechanical extension of the brain, the physical/mechanical interface between the mind software and game software.


"He stands like a statue, Becomes part of the machine..."


In other words, I completely agree with what you are trying to say, but you have to rethink your phrasing if you want to "win" the argument or reach some agreement. Until then it can be argued that all the disadvantages you mentioned for those ugly analog thumb sticks can work as an advantage once the muscles and reflexes adjust to *compensate* for it. It might turn out body can adapt in such way as to use this large dead zone in its favor and minimize movement errors due to rapid change of direction, for example. You have to make the argument more general, statistical, there must be a room for that exception that proves the rule, you know?
 

[Xiaou2]

It might turn out body can adapt in such way as to use this large dead zone in its favor and minimize movement errors due to rapid change of direction, for example.

 Get real man.  Thats completely ridiculous and illogical.

 
 PBJ posted a pic, but the buttons are not labeled.  The extra button shown could be a start button or something.. even as unlikely as it may seem...

 It does bring up a point... Has anyone looked at the Japanese manuals?

 And when you consider that... then you realize..  Does anyone have a picture of the Japanese machines?  Artwork?  Manuals?  Anything? 

 It seems like there is a huge missing part of history, most especially where a lot of things originated. A lot of the Japanese cabs have alternate art, construction, and in the case of Yie Ar, could be changes in gameplay / controls.

[abaraba]

Get real man.  Thats completely ridiculous and illogical.

Not for the pinball wizard, he's got such a supple wrist! What is your claim, what is it you want people to agree with? There is no person on this planet who can beat your score in Robotron with thumb-sticks? There is no chance Robotron world record can be set by anyone using thumb-sticks, ever, never?

[Hoopz]

Seriously?  I don't think that it's a leap of faith to assume that PBJ is showing the PS2 cocktail rendition of the cabinet in question and the fact that it shows 3 buttons.

Heh. That would be great, but no, seriously, I could not follow what was he responding to, and do not see anything there that says "Yie Ar Kung-Fu". In fact, I'm pretty sure that is illegal compilation with more than one game, probably running some version of MAME.

Well I'm pretty sure that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Google this phrase:  Yie Ar Kung-Fu playstation game

Click the top link.  http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/929209-oretachi-game-center-zoku-yie-ar-kung-fu

Look at the picture on the top right, that's the picture that was posted here.  It's the game in question (Yie Ar Kung-Fu) for the PS2.  I have no idea why you think it's an illegal compilation.  That's just idiotic to jump to that conclusion based off a picture.  X now has a competitor for biggest blind assumption without any proof.

[abaraba]

Are you making fun of yourself or you just blind?




I actually have the CD I was talking about, it's very similar cover, colorful Kanji and all.

EDIT: Found the CD, it turns out I have exactly those games, only there are many games on my one CD, here's Volume 5:  
- Scramble, Crazy Climber, Karate Dou, Time Pilot, Moon Cresta, Sonic Wings, Burger Time, Yie Ar Kung-Fu, Super Volleyball, Terra Cresta, Quarth, Kunio-Kun,Dodgeball Bu, Rabio Lepus, Akuma-Jou Dracula, Contra, Pooyan, Thunder Cross and Trio The Punch

[Hoopz]

I stand corrected as I didn't look that closely at the picture. 

Anyway, why are you angry at me, again?

Another assumption.  But I still don't see the reasoning behind assuming it's Mame.

[Xiaou2]

 Photoshopped.

heh.   I could tell the 3rd button spacing was different in PBJs pic, but its only now that I notice the shoddy edgework on the left side where the edit was done.

[abaraba]

Another assumption.  But I still don't see the reasoning behind assuming it's Mame.

You are assuming that I am assuming, but I am not assuming, so you are the one who is assuming, not me, you. Those are not ports or remakes, those games are clearly emulated, with all the test screens and garbled graphics on boot, MAME control panels and everything. I can tell you, you assumption making type of person, where you can download this CD, if it is not against some rules.


Xiaou2,
It maybe artifacts due to jpg compression, he would not need to photoshop as every game has its own little cocktail picture, so that's probably just some other game that does have three buttons officially. 

[RayB]

I'd love to get all of you into a room with a couple kegs, mandatory shots every 10 minutes and see what happens.

[Hoopz]

I'd love to get all of you into a room with a couple kegs, mandatory shots every 10 minutes and see what happens.

100 in a 100? 

 

[garnerb350]

I'll bring the jager