Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!

[Xiaou2]

Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?

 

 You said you cant, because you have no interest.. Not because you didnt have the technical ability.

 If you asked me to draw a picture, and I said I cant draw people.. I only draw cars.  Then that would be the similar.  However, in my case, I would have the drive to try to preserve - so would make that attempts to draw something I was not used to drawing.  Someone should do it, and if not me, then who else?

 To me, the insult has been that people dont care about the games they try to preserve.  And so yeah, I get offensive about it.  Especially when I get replies like "Learn to Program".

I have no reason to look into making them apart from you demanding I do so.

 The reason should be for preserving games history in complete.  It should have no bearing on what I or anyone else wants...  But what Should be.  In fact, both the items Im talking about are least of what Id like to see in mame.  Its just a principle of preservation efforts, and how things are failing.

I could just as easily say your efforts to learn to program were half-ass.

- You could, but then you would have to run test on my brain, and eventually you would find out that I was in fact crippled compared to your own brain.  Like comparing a man who runs marathons, to a man missing a leg.  Yeah, he can hobble/slide, but it would take him 5 years to get to the finish line "IF" he devoted every resource available for all that time to that particular goal.

 To call that man half-assed because he couldnt compare is completely unfair in an argument... and is downright poor in taste and in the nature of realism.

 I understand logic and structure... but I cant talk computer language.  I cant do simple math without counting on my fingers. I have horrible memory, and am a very slow learner.  These things I have been born with, and Ive fought 10x as hard in my life to do the same things that others like yourself can do with almost no effort at all.

I told you, if you want the changes made that you suggest, you need a NEW dev team.  Nicola took the project as far as he could.  I took the project as far as I could, now Aaron has taken it as far as he can IMHO.

 You make assumptions for Aaron now?   Either way, you could be right.  But, that does not mean I, and others dont have the right to be upset about it.  Its the simple reality of it all.

The fact that you're willing to write off the tremendous amount of work that has gone into MAME as half-ass and sit here calling myself and other developers who have dedicated years of our free time to working on it 'blind'

 Dont Twist my words.  I said you were blind for thinking a legless man could run a marathon.  If you want to win an argument, then be honest.  If you dont, you only look like a tool and a fool.

 Nobody denies the vast great work done by the devs, including you.  They have accomplished many great things that everyone loves and appreciates.  However, that does not change the big picture.  That things that need preserving are being lost every day due to problems in the ways things are being handled.

[Haze]

Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?

 

 You said you cant, because you have no interest.. Not because you didnt have the technical ability.

 If you asked me to draw a picture, and I said I cant draw people.. I only draw cars.  Then that would be the similar.  However, in my case, I would have the drive to try to preserve - so would make that attempts to draw something I was not used to drawing.  Someone should do it, and if not me, then who else?

 To me, the insult has been that people dont care about the games they try to preserve.  And so yeah, I get offensive about it.  Especially when I get replies like "Learn to Program".

I'm one person, I have no interest in learning how these sub-systems work in MAME.  I care about performing my role, which does not include that.  Again, you seem to be trying to demand I work on areas of the code I've never had any interest in working on, am completely unfamiliar with, and would probably do a shoddy job of updating.

You will always get the reply 'Learn to Program' because that's exactly what everybody else involved with the project has had to do, and is effectively what you're telling me to do.  Just because I can 'program' doesn't mean I have any idea how some parts of MAME work.

I care about figuring out how things work, how CPUs are hooked up, how graphics are generated, and what the game code expects.  This is what I'm good at.  The project is meant to be a TEAM effort, simply demanding that people work on everything is completely unreasonable.  This is no different to your argument about marathons.

I'm playing my role in the preservation of these things.  You're doing.... nothing?  but are somehow trying to suggest that I'm not a good enough job

[Xiaou2]

As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

The MAME input system is fine for 99.99%

 Firstly, lightgun games are what Saved the arcades from going bankrupt.  They consistently got a lot of gameplay.  They also were on many consoles.  How many people didnt have an NES gun and play Duckhunt?  How many people have never played Area 51 in the arcades? 

 DO you REALLY think that people would be happy if there was not an option for real lightgun interfaces?  You make the ASSumption, that just because you dont have, like or want a lightgun... that 99% of the game playing world does not care about them too.   Its completely off-base.

 The simple fact is that the majority of people who use mame feel like they are stepping on eggshells, and dont bother voicing their opinions.


 The main problem with lightguns has been in the hardware.  The manufacturers have put out horrible quality initially (actlabs).  Yet the LCDTopguns do work with very good accuracy (tho, they require you to stand much further away from the screen than you may like).  There are other lightgun options as well, that work similarly to the Wii... tho that is not my cup of tea, because its not arcade correct.

 Barring lightguns, there are many people who use spinners and trackballs, and all other sorts of controllers.  Well more than you think.  In fact, search this site and see how many control panels have more than just the standard happs 8way.  (And this site isnt even half of whats out there... nor are most of the projects people do on this site)

 AND, even if people dont have the controller today... they may Intend to have one in the future... IF mame supports it, and If it is available to be purchased.

[Haze]

As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

The MAME input system is fine for 99.99%

 Firstly, lightgun games are what Saved the arcades from going bankrupt.  They consistently got a lot of gameplay.  They also were on many consoles.  How many people didnt have an NES gun and play Duckhunt?  How many people have never played Area 51 in the arcades?  

 DO you REALLY think that people would be happy if there was not an option for real lightgun interfaces?  You make the ASSumption, that just because you dont have, like or want a lightgun... that 99% of the game playing world does not care about them too.   Its completely off-base.

 The simple fact is that the majority of people who use mame feel like they are stepping on eggshells, and dont bother voicing their opinions.


 The main problem with lightguns has been in the hardware.  The manufacturers have put out horrible quality initially (actlabs).  Yet the LCDTopguns do work with very good accuracy (tho, they require you to stand much further away from the screen than you may like).  There are other lightgun options as well, that work similarly to the Wii... tho that is not my cup of tea, because its not arcade correct.

 Barring lightguns, there are many people who use spinners and trackballs, and all other sorts of controllers.  Well more than you think.  In fact, search this site and see how many control panels have more than just the standard happs 8way.  (And this site isnt even half of whats out there... nor are most of the projects people do on this site)

 AND, even if people dont have the controller today... they may Intend to have one in the future... IF mame supports it, and If it is available to be purchased.

so we're back to this ASSumption thing... I'm really surprised saint hasn't just banned you yet.  You've been presented with reasonable arguments, and resorted to just plain insults.

I know of precisely 0 people who use lightguns with MAME in person, as opposed to countless who use it with a keyboard and mouse.  I don't believe any of the active dev team own any guns at all.  This isn't an assumption.

You're right, the hardware has been horrible, and people have been trying to use guns on games which aren't even suitable for guns.  Most arcade 'gun' games of the 90s aren't gun games at all.  The end result of trying to support them is endless bitching because it doesn't work properly with crap hardware (or can't work, because they're not gun games), which has the end result of making the people involved wish they hadn't bothered at all.

[Xiaou2]

The project is meant to be a TEAM effort, simply demanding that people work on everything is completely unreasonable

 Firstly, Im not Demanding anything.  Im simply Voicing my opinions about the end results of the effort in preservation.

 As you say, its a Team effort... and if that means that nobody on the team is working on a certain area... either you all should take parts of that work and divy it up... or that area isnt going to improve.   And if that is the case... Which it is... then you cant expect people to be happy with the end result... and will have opinions similar or exactly like the ones I post... even if they are not voiced.

I know of precisely 0 people who use lightguns with MAME in person, as opposed to countless who use it with a keyboard and mouse.  This isn't an assumption.

 And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

 AND, if mame didnt put all its 'optional' inputs into the 'main input' windows, people would realize that T2 wasnt a lighgun game.  And, if people are told that T2 shouldnt be controlled with a lightgun, and if they wanted that they should 'learn how to program'... that would be the end of it right?     I guess mame team just got tired of the emails?

 And btw - I also own T2 guns, and just about every other controller type that has ever been conceived of.  Im also not the only one.

[Grasshopper]

It's a real shame this initially interesting thread has descended into a flame war. Some people here are being way too sensitive.

I'm sure all of us recognise the huge amount of work and talent that has gone into creating MAME and appreciate it. It really doesn't need to be said as it's self-evident. But that doesn't mean we should feel inhibited from speaking out when we feel the MAME developers have made a mistake. On the contrary. If we don't give them feedback then how are the faults in the program going to be identified? Ultimately we all want the same thing which is for MAME to be as good as it can possibly be.

Broadly speaking, I agree with abaraba and Xiaou2. It makes no sense to disable the third button if the hardware (and software) supports it. If people don't want to use the third button then it could easily be disabled by changing the keymapping settings.

[Haze]

And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

Sorry, you're just some forum troll, I don't know you in person, to my knowledge I've never met you, not even once.

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

[Haze]

And how many people do you know?  heh    Now you know me, and guess what? I have 2 LCDTopguns, (and 2 crappy actlabs guns I wish Id never bought).  A lot of people who would like guns, dont have the money right away... or are not even sure they work well with mame.  That does not mean that people Like to play gun games with a mouse.  In fact, try playing pointblank with a mouse, and see how pathetic you do.  You wont get Anywhere in that game with a mouse... so its Pointless to even try playing it.  T2 is the only game you could justify playing with a mouse, because it was a pot based game... and where extreme accuracy & speed are not a necessity.

Sorry, you're just some forum troll, I don't know you in person, to my knowledge I've never met you, not even once.

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

As you say, its a Team effort... and if that means that nobody on the team is working on a certain area... either you all should take parts of that work and divy it up... or that area isnt going to improve.   And if that is the case... Which it is... then you cant expect people to be happy with the end result... and will have opinions similar or exactly like the ones I post... even if they are not voiced.

and again this is where you seem to be confusing MAME for some commercial product, with actual deadlines (and even in commercial products features get dropped _all the time_ if there is nobody to work on them)

you're right, that area isn't going to improve, and no amount of bitching will change that.  Just because the overall goal is preservation and documentation of the systems doesn't mean you're going to get devs bending over and working outside the parts of the code they're comfortable with to achieve that.  You *can't* just split the workload, the best you can do is suggest suitable projects to different people, and more often than not they won't work on them anyway.

as for the overall debate, do I think all 3 buttons should be available, yes, as a matter of fact I do, I think it was a pretty ridiculous change, however, enough evidence was presented at the time to make it, and despite claims of others, I don't simply go about reverting other peoples code / submissions without reason.

[Xiaou2]

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

 And I know people in-person also.  Some who have Guns, or want them in the future.

 In fact, Id gather I know more passionate people in the arcade community in-person than you ever will.  Ive hung with various game collectors, who have Real machines as well as mame machines, and pinball machines... as well as the older electromechanical machines such as the old Ball Bowlers & EM gun games.

 I also worked as an Arcade Manager for Namco for 3yrs. In addition, Ive gotten email responses from developers like Owen Rubin, and Jamie Fenton.

 Ive hung out with the guy who created Videotopia, Jeff Anderson.  As we dumped the remaining 2 roms for TX-1 that were said to be needed... and he bought the TX-1 off of me.

 Ive been to game auctions/shows, pinball shows, and places like Funspot (largest classic arcade still standing), all of where Ive met some great people, who feel the same type of passion that I share about games.

[Haze]

I do however know plenty of actual people, normal flesh and blood people, who use MAME, none of them with guns.  Some with a wiimote hacked to act like a mouse, but that's the limit.

 And I know people in-person also.  Some who have Guns, or want them in the future.

 In fact, Id gather I know more passionate people in the arcade community in-person than you ever will.  Ive hung with various game collectors, who have Real machines as well as mame machines, and pinball machines... as well as the older electromechanical machines such as the old Ball Bowlers & EM gun games.

 I also worked as an Arcade Manager for Namco for 3yrs. In addition, Ive gotten email responses from developers like Owen Rubin, and Jamie Fenton.

 Ive hung out with the guy who created Videotopia, Jeff Anderson.  As we dumped the remaining 2 roms for TX-1 that were said to be needed... and he bought the TX-1 off of me.

 Ive been to game auctions/shows, pinball shows, and places like Funspot (largest classic arcade still standing), all of where Ive met some great people, who feel the same type of passion that I share about games.

So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

That's why, instead of trying to make the mainstream version of MAME suit your very specific needs, you should let it be what it is, you're in a minority.  If you want your changes you'd be better finding somebody to work on them in unofficial builds.

[Xiaou2]

So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

 Firstly, niche as in "Arcade / Game" interested people are the exact kinds of people who use mame.
( A person usually finds mame, because of a passion for an old machine they used to love and play the hell out of)

 2ndly, its not the only type of people I hang with.  Its just an example of the types of people who are more passionate about games.  The people who it actually matters to.

 There are THOUSANDS of arcade games out there... and do you know where they went?  To peoples homes.  Thats right.  Imagine 8000 machines of One type of game, and they are all in peoples homes.  Then imagine that there have been games released for the last +50 years, and almost all have made it to someones home.

 The sheer number of gamers out there is Staggering.  Yet, because you have only met a certain type of people, that do not have machines or the same passions... you make the assumptions that the majority is the same as you have seen locally within your click.

 Its simply not the case.  ESPECIALLY when talking lightguns.  A Lot of people grew up using them, and want them for the pc... weather it be for mame or console emulation.  Also, theres a difference between want and have too. Plenty of people want Ram Controls new Starwars controller remake... but not everyone has the $300 to grab it.

 Be aware, your grasp on the game playing enthusiast is extremely limited at best.
(Especially for being on this site... which hosts thousands of game related projects)

[Xiaou2]

That's why, instead of trying to make the mainstream version of MAME suit your very specific needs,

 Specific needs?  You mean 'Arcade Accuracy"  

 One thought the goal was to preserve arcade accuracy & experience... which includes arcade controls...

 That shouldnt be a separate version of mame.  In fact, mame should expand in a way to show people more history about these games.  As you listed, many people dont know T2 was a pot based game.   A simple picture of the bottom of the control panel may help with that, in addition to a line of text or two... as well as the possible separated controller mappings. (arcade -vs- user modified)

 The goal of the project should be about complete preservation, not about, "Well, the majority of young people I know dont even play 720.... so screw it".

[Haze]

So you basically admit, your friendship group is a niece group, with very specific backgrounds and demands, which don't reflect the majority of normal people.

 Firstly, niche as in "Arcade / Game" interested people are the exact kinds of people who use mame.
( A person usually finds mame, because of a passion for an old machine they used to love and play the hell out of)

The vast majority of people I know who use MAME to play games use it because they want to get an idea of what games used to be like, or played some on Xbox live, such a sequel / remake to something and wanted to play the original.

Most people who were actually playing these things back in the day aren't that interested at all, they have families to support, and little time for MAME / emulation at all.  This is evident from the lack of developers too (and the reasons developers have given for leaving the project)

None of them care if they're using a mouse instead of a gun, or an analog joystick on an xbox pad instead of a crazy 49-way controller.  They're probably rather happy that MAME just works, out the box, by default, and doesn't have a ton of bewildering options.  I am also happy with this situation because it make it far easier for me to develop and work with the project.

The rest of the people I know who use MAME use it to help with repairs and such, for which again, they consider the team to be doing a decent job.  This group don't care about *playing* the games in MAME, so again, don't care what inputs MAME supports, as long as they can use it as a debugging tool for their hardware.

You greatly overestimate your own importance, people who who want to use MAME, but with the original controls are a tiny, tiny minoirty.  Most people who want original controls use the original hardware.

Arcades are dead, because the number of people wanting to use them pales in insignificance compared to average people using PCs and modern gaming machines.

You are confusing your idea of 'arcade accuracy' with that of the devs.  Your views clearly do not agree with what the devs view as important, at all.  If your views disagree with that of the developers involved, then yes, they very much belong in a different project, a separate version of MAME, or whatever else.  There are no license restrictions that prevent this.

[SavannahLion]

If i had only had a programmers brain

It's about two posts after this that I got tired of reading this.

Once Saint closes the thread, I'll be more than happy to read the Cliff Notes.

...the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  

Am I the only one that's mildly concerned about this?

[Xiaou2]

The vast majority of people I know who use MAME to play games use it because they want to get an idea of what games used to be like, or played some on Xbox live, such a sequel / remake to something and wanted to play the original.

 Exactly.  It shows your age bracket.  You didnt grow up in the days of the massive arcades.. and the people you know are the same bracket of people... who are Clueless.

 You, like most younger gens, think the world revolves around you.  You think that you are the majority... because the older gen is somehow vanished from existence! lol 

 What do you think happened to all those people who grew up playing with the nintendo zapper?  Or Area 51 in the arcades?  Do you think they forgot all that?!  Did they Die already?!

Most people who were actually playing these things back in the day aren't that interested at all, they have families to support, and little time for MAME / emulation at all.  This is evident from the lack of developers too.

 Developing for mame, and having an interest and playing games are completely different things.  In fact, I know plenty of older men like myself, who have extreme passion for their game hobby.   From collecting old consoles & games... to actual machines.   In fact, they have more money now then they did back in the day when they were kids popping their parents quarters into the machines.

 And yes, they Make time for their passions.  Family & or Business, it doesnt matter.  They find ways to get back their youthful experiences.

None of them care if they're using a mouse instead of a gun, or an analog joystick on an xbox pad instead of a crazy 49-way controller.  They're probably rather happy that MAME just works, out the box, by default, and doesn't have a ton of bewildering options.

 Exactly.  Why would they care if a game used a spinner?  They dont even know what it is.  And when they go to play a spinner game and its completely uncontrollable... they will write off the game as useless crap.  Instead of being a great treasured game that it is... when its played using the correct controller.

 However, there are those who Do want to know, and Would care, if they knew, and If say the xbox released a spinner attachment.

 In fact, many who come to this very site have stared off clueless, and not so appreciated in real controls and games they didnt play in the past... and have done a 180, and bought a spinner or various other controller... and now enjoy the games as they were intended to be enjoyed.   This extends to simple things like using a real wico 8 way leaf switch joystick for Robotron (the game is unplayable without it).

I am also happy with this situation because it make it far easier for me to develop and work with the project.

 - But it completely devalues the thing you are trying to preserve.  Its like taking a Lamborghini, and only preserving the engine.  Then controlling that car engine with an xbox thumb stick.  Its pathetic, and the opposite of what should be done.  Its completely the WRONG Attitude to have about preservation.


The rest of the people I know who use MAME use it to help with repairs and such, for which again, they consider the team to be doing a decent job.

 - Id say there are less people using mame for repairs is extremely limited at best.  Most the repair men have figured out how to fix games well before mame, and might only at best use mame for finding a romset.

 This group don't care about *playing* the games in MAME, so again, don't care what inputs MAME supports, as long as they can use it as a debugging tool for their hardware.

 - What kind of person repairs arcade pcbs and has no passion for games?  I know many game repair men, and most all of them have some real machines, if not entire basements filled with them.

You greatly overestimate your own importance, people who who want to use MAME, but with the original controls are a tiny, tiny minoirty.  Most people who want original controls use the original hardware.

 - My own importance?!  You mean, my idea about correct preservation?!
You are a complete ignorant idiot man.  No doubt about that.

You are confusing your idea of 'arcade accuracy' with that of the devs.  Your views clearly do not agree with what the devs view as important, at all.

 - There is no "my idea".  There is either accurate, or Not accurate / not preserved.

[Haze]

If i had only had a programmers brain

It's about two posts after this that I got tired of reading this.

Once Saint closes the thread, I'll be more than happy to read the Cliff Notes.

...the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  

Am I the only one that's mildly concerned about this?

No, it concerns me too, the lack of motivation to make even simple changes is rather disturbing, I'm talking about changes which would take any dev, even ones with no programming ability 5 minutes at most.

It's been coming for a while, most of the recent changes and fixes to MAME in the last couple of builds have come from MESS, and it's looking fairly likely that the teams / projects will be fully merged at some point in the not so distant future, but even then it remains to be seen if people will be motivated to work on MAME.

There isn't any lack of work to be done, quite a lot of systems still need extensive work (for ones sharing hardware with consoles the mentioned merge should help) but even then there are arcade systems badly in need of attention which aren't getting touched at all.  This is why moaning and complaints about inputs are really a minor concern.  I'd rather see something running properly in terms of CPU / Graphics / Sound but with dodgy inputs than not running at all, or with severe glitches still.

As for Xiaou2, I give up, he won't accept reason or logic, or see why priorities are the way they are.  He appears to be living in his own little fantasy world and accept that his requests are beyond what the development team can offer, or feel the need to offer, or consider to actually improve or help the emulation in any way, shape or form.

It's not happening dude, get over it, the level of preservation offered by MAME has been chosen and set in stone for a long time, if your expectations are higher that's your own issue to be dealing with.  Other people might consider realistic 3d models of the cabinets just as important, whereas there are members of the dev team that think even the artwork system should be ripped out and MAME remain nothing but an emulation engine to interact with other software and not handle any kind of inputs / outputs directly *at all*.  Some think that no bootlegs should be supported, others think that all usermade hacks should be supported in addition to real arcade ones.

Can't please everybody.

My personal opinion is that MAME should emulate what it can, and steps we can do to improve the actual emulation of the system hardware should be done.  I don't give a damn about the inputs being accurate to the original, nor some of the flexibility being offered.  I want something that just works, for me, and other developers, and that's my goal.  That's why I'm looking forward to the MESS merging in, because it means I'll be able to improve the actual emulation code, and benefit both arcade and console emulation as a result.  Realistic goals, and a workable plan.

[Xiaou2]

Of course it doesnt mean anything to you, because again... you are clueless about games.

 I could take you to places that have correct controlled games, and teach you how to actually play and enjoy the games properly... and your entire perspective would change.
 
 However, that isnt going to be the case.. because you are pathetically blind in your youthful perspectives, and subpar understandings.


SavannahLion, dont take Haze's comments too serious.  Hes been booted off the Team for whatever reasons... and there is no real telling what happens behind the scenes -vs- what Haze wants to present with his colored visions.

[Haze]

Of course it doesnt mean anything to you, because again... you are clueless about games.

 I could take you to places that have correct controlled games, and teach you how to actually play and enjoy the games properly... and your entire perspective would change.
 
 However, that isnt going to be the case.. because you are pathetically blind in your youthful perspectives, and subpar understandings.


SavannahLion, dont take Haze's comments too serious.  Hes been booted off the Team for whatever reasons... and there is no real telling what happens behind the scenes -vs- what Haze wants to present with his colored visions.

You were told the same things on Mameworld by other devs who you also tried to bully into doing exactly what you want with your demands and grossly inaccurate assumptions about the scope and difficulty of some of your propositions.  You near enough pissed off the only current dev who might be able to do something about your issues to the point where he just decided to go and work on more discrete sound simulations instead (he happens to be pretty much the only dev who understands those too, and I'm kinda glad he's working on them, because it is more important to get those right while the boards work)

I work in games, I understand games, and I understand what's important.  I work in software development, I understand what's important there too.  Robotron seems perfectly playable on a dualshock to me, no less so than an actual cabinet I've played it on.  Missile Command is fine with a mouse.  Sinistar and 720 are perfectly playable with an analog stick.  The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.  Support is far from mission critical.

The input system in MAME could be rewritten at any time in the next 20 years if somebody really wanted to, it's a minor, minor concern compared to getting the things up and running in the first place.  Getting them running is the hard part, that's what I consider preservation.  Right now, Raiden 2, for example, doesn't run properly at all.  I think getting it running, even if MAME only supported keyboard as an input, not even joystick, is far more important than not having it run at all as far as preservation is concerned.  Right now it could easily be 'lost' because game-software-critical components of the emulation are severely lacking.  The interests of those involved in MAME pretty much begins and ends with the things running properly on a current PC system with standard PC hardware.  Any level of preservation beyond that is outside the scope of the project.

You can continue to insult me all you want, but you appear to be the one in the minority here, even on a site that specializes in arcade controls.

[Xiaou2]

Actually, you dont understand... which is why there is any debate at all.

 Id stomp all over you in robotron with a set of real wico 8ways, and thats giving you a year to practice, and me not playing in over 10 years.

 There is a very specific reason for this, and its all mechanical.  Something that You do not work it, and are not experienced with in the least.

 And with correct Wico leafs, your playtime and scores will be 10x that of a gamepad with any level of practice.  Currently, you have Nood status, meaning, Its doubtful you make it past level 5 let alone to level 12...

 In fact, I had to FORCE my 5yr old younger friend to play Robotron.  He Hated the crappy graphics, and was extremely against it, as it was Older than Dirt to him.  After only 15 minutes, he was hooked... and laughing like a giddy schoolgirl.  Me and him alternated... and after a few bouts over the next few weekends, he got to level 35... which is no joke on that game.

 Years later, he went to play it on his xbox 360 with the xbox controllers... and completely sucked.  Couldnt get past level 5.  He adomently cursed at how awful the controller were for the game, and how much better the real controller were.  He only played about 5 times, and he gave up.  Where as when we played the real machine... we were on it for like +4hrs at a time.

[Haze]

Actually, you dont understand... which is why there is any debate at all.

 Id stomp all over you in robotron with a set of real wico 8ways, and thats giving you a year to practice, and me not playing in over 10 years.

 There is a very specific reason for this, and its all mechanical.  Something that You do not work it, and are not experienced with in the least.

 And with correct Wico leafs, your playtime and scores will be 10x that of a gamepad with any level of practice.  Currently, you have Nood status, meaning, Its doubtful you make it past level 5 let alone to level 12...

 In fact, I had to FORCE my 5yr old younger friend to play Robotron.  He Hated the crappy graphics, and was extremely against it, as it was Older than Dirt to him.  After only 15 minutes, he was hooked... and laughing like a giddy schoolgirl.  Me and him alternated... and after a few bouts over the next few weekends, he got to level 35... which is no joke on that game.

 Years later, he went to play it on his xbox 360 with the xbox controllers... and completely sucked.  Couldnt get past level 5.  He adomently cursed at how awful the controller were for the game, and how much better the real controller were.  He only played about 5 times, and he gave up.  Where as when we played the real machine... we were on it for like +4hrs at a time.

.. and, I don't especially care?  For my needs, and the goals of the project, the existing solution, and allowing the use of conventional controllers is 100% adequate.  I don't care if you find it easier to play with real sticks, it's _entirely_ subjective and well outside the goals of the project.

[Xiaou2]

As for Derrick, he started to work on controller inputs long ago and gave up.  He only said that he was still interested because he was angered at my commentary.  Yet the real reasons were more as Ive written.  The entire input system is a mess... and nobody wants to clean it up.  It had Nothing to do with me and my comments... so dont even try to blame that crap on me.  To do so is purely pathetic.

 

The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.

 You are wrong.  There are very good reasons why certain controllers were designed and built for games.  In fact, the entire gameplay is carefully balanced with those specific controllers as well... so any small deviation will create a complete imbalance in difficulty and intended experience.

 Unlike todays Craptastic games, where its more like an animated movie than an actual skilled game... I can understand why you would think such things.  Playing a FPS has 1/1000th of the intensity of a 5 minute round of robotron on any level higher than 6.  Each and every split second, you are in danger.  There is no place to hide.  No storyline cutsceens.  Its life and death in every split second of time.

 Games like Race Drivin were ALL about the controls.  The graphics were crap... but the controls felt so realistic, that it made the entire experience unlike anything out there.  Which is exactly why it was so successful.  FYI - Race Drivn / Hard Drivin has a 6 turn wheel w/ force feedback motor big & strong enough to power a clothing dryer.  Its gas pedal is spring based, while its brake uses a rubber compression for a more realistic feel.  Its shifter is the most realistic arcade shifter ever produced.  The games controls so good... even some DMV offices were developing it into a training device.

 The controls were no Gimmick.  They are an integral part of the game, its balance, its feel.

[Haze]

As for Derrick, he started to work on controller inputs long ago and gave up.  He only said that he was still interested because he was angered at my commentary.  Yet the real reasons were more as Ive written.  The entire input system is a mess... and nobody wants to clean it up.  It had Nothing to do with me and my comments... so dont even try to blame that crap on me.  To do so is purely pathetic.

  

The designers of the games would care most about them playable in some form, not the cabinets, which are as much as anything a marketing gimmick.

 You are wrong.  There are very good reasons why certain controllers were designed and built for games.  In fact, the entire gameplay is carefully balanced with those specific controllers as well... so any small deviation will create a complete imbalance in difficulty and intended experience.

 Unlike todays Craptastic games, where its more like an animated movie than an actual skilled game... I can understand why you would think such things.  Playing a FPS has 1/1000th of the intensity of a 5 minute round of robotron on any level higher than 6.  Each and every split second, you are in danger.  There is no place to hide.  No storyline cutsceens.  Its life and death in every split second of time.

 Games like Race Drivin were ALL about the controls.  The graphics were crap... but the controls felt so realistic, that it made the entire experience unlike anything out there.  Which is exactly why it was so successful.  FYI - Race Drivn / Hard Drivin has a 6 turn wheel w/ force feedback motor big & strong enough to power a clothing dryer.  Its gas pedal is spring based, while its brake uses a rubber compression for a more realistic feel.  Its shifter is the most realistic arcade shifter ever produced.  The games controls so good... even some DMV offices were developing it into a training device.

 The controls were no Gimmick.  They are an integral part of the game, its balance, its feel.

and again, if you want one, you buy and use the original cabinet.  Not MAME.  MAME will never replicate the experience of the full custom built cabinet.  It is not intended or designed to do so, it never will be, such is outside the scope of the project, as I keep telling you.  Mame emulates the actual PCBs and attempts to provide a convenient input system for PC use.

I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

and yes, you royally pissed off Derrick, which should have been clear from the responses you got.  The existing input system is not a mess, no matter how many times you repeat that it is.  It works well for the majority of cases, and while there are some where some more flexibility would help, and a little inconsistency in places actual problems are few and far between.

In the majority of cases custom controls and custom cabinets were a gimmick, something that could be done, but in realty wasn't necessary, just presented something that looked a bit different to the player.

Nobody cares what you think, and no amount of repeating that will change what people think, or the scope of the project which you have no say in anyway.  If you are not happy, come up with your own project, or find a new team who will do so, and boss them around.  It's that simple.

MAME will not be doing what you want, ever.  It doesn't help the project.  I strongly suggest you read the bsnes link I posted as a prime example of what happens if developers try to bend over the meet the needs of a minority of over-vocal users.

[Xiaou2]

I don't care if you find it easier to play like that, it's entirely subjective.

 Its not easier for me.  Its easier for ANYONE.  That is the point.
The Wico 8ways have a certain designed mechanical advantage to any other type of controller.  The entire game developement and game balancing was done on Wico 8way leafs, and any deviation from that is not representing the game as was designed.  In fact, the original game developer has Refused to play his own creation on a machine that didnt have the correct controls installed.  That tells you something right there.

 Just because you do not understand the Value of a REAL game, and put out Crappy piles every day of your worthless coding life... does not mean that everyone is on the same level as you.

 

Mame emulates the actual PCBs

We can re-roll this into "depending on its choice of what is worthwhile or not",
as proven by the previously argued points.

 

and yes, you royally pissed off Derrick, which should have been clear from the responses you got.

 Sure I did.  But that does not change the facts. He gave up the control systems long before I made any of my opinions verbal.

[Haze]

I don't care if you find it easier to play like that, it's entirely subjective.

 Its not easier for me.  Its easier for ANYONE.  That is the point.
The Wico 8ways have a certain designed mechanical advantage to any other type of controller.  The entire game developement and game balancing was done on Wico 8way leafs, and any deviation from that is not representing the game as was designed.  In fact, the original game developer has Refused to play his own creation on a machine that didnt have the correct controls installed.  That tells you something right there.

It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves, on the Analog sticks I can play it for ages.  For me the shorter distance between my hands, and use of my thumbs is vital.

As I said, it's subjective.  Trying to argue it isn't is a ridiculous as every single other one of your arguments.

As for Derrek, he's given up knowing that whatever he does he will be bitched at, you are a prime example of why that will happen, because NOTHING is good enough for you.  That's why the project has it's own goals, which you thankfully have nothing to do with.

Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Xiaou2]

I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

 I said I wasnt a big fan of it, BUT, because its part of the games history, it Should be preserved and be able to be experienced.

 I have a movie made by Wierd Al  called  UHF.  I bought the DVD, and the DVD has clips of footage that never made it into the movie. 

 I wanted to see the stuff that was made in the development process, so I watched it all.  Its was horrendous...  And god it was the right call to leave that stuff out... But, it was part of the history of the movie, and Im glad that someone realized that its better to preserve history, than to toss it out.

 As Ive said, to differentiate it from the original methods of controls, an option could be added to the cheat engine to enable it.  Or, some other form of switch.

 And again, this is far from the most important thing needed or wanted in mame... but it serves as an example of the logic and reasoning that needs to change.

[RayB]

It's kind of strange that someone who readily admits to having a "crippled brain" won't realize maybe this whole argument is an example of how that crippled brain has trouble understanding things.

[Xiaou2]

It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves,

 This is called PRACTICE.  You think I was good at Robotron at first?  I stunk at it too.  But if you actually invest a Little time into it, you actually improve.  Improve to the point where you realize the difference that is made from using a better tool than a poor tool.

[Haze]

I'm surprised you're not demanding MAME stick with 2 buttons on Yiear, it's what the designers wanted, clearly.  Allowing 3 buttons is a hack which ruins the experience that was given on a genuine cabinet by destroying the difficulty and ability to eat your money, which is all arcade games were designed for anyway.

 I said I wasnt a big fan of it, BUT, because its part of the games history, it Should be preserved and be able to be experienced.

There are debug features in many games, hidden levels, hidden control schemes which were part of the game at one stage.  They never made it into the final product.  You can enable them with hacks.  The 3rd button never made it into an official cabinet, it might have been locked out from a hardware point of view, rather than a software point of view, but it's as much of a debug feature as anything else.

You can enable the debug features in most games with simple 1 byte rom patches, from a software point of view, no different to the hardware mod needed to use a 3rd button.  MAME doesn't enable all those things just because they're trivial to enable.

What constitutes part of the final game?  All evidence points that Yiear is a 2 button game, even if the software does support 3.  Should MAME misrepresent it?  Should MAME enable the software mods that allow various hidden features to be accessed too?  (Eco Fighters was clearly designed with a spinner in mind, there is code for a spinner buried in the ROM, the attract mode is clearly recorded with a spinner, yet it never shipped that way but is 100x more playable that way, you have to modify a byte in the rom to use that code tho)



It's not a simple black and white issue.  

[Haze]

It's not easier for me.  Give me 2 full sized joysticks and my head goes 'wtf, can't play this' and my co-ordination and concentration go all over the place.  I can't *play* Robotron like that, I die on the first 2 waves,

 This is called PRACTICE.  You think I was good at Robotron at first?  I stunk at it too.  But if you actually invest a Little time into it, you actually improve.  Improve to the point where you realize the difference that is made from using a better tool than a poor tool.

Learning to program is called PRACTICE too, and would solve all your problems here..

Once again you fail to realise different people have different limitations, playing with 2 sticks, and my hands distanced is impossible for me, I don't have the co-ordination, I never will have the co-ordination.  As far as I'm concerned the original controls on things like Robotron and 720 are a bit crap and _ruin_ my enjoyment of the games.

[Xiaou2]

Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

 Also, there are far more people here that should be banned, who have used far harsher language and foul posts that all and any post Ive ever made combined.

 I dont know if you have been reading the posts, and the little pictures that pop up here and there....  but all I have to say is that if these people cant get banned... its gona take a lot more effort from me to get banned.

 As for contributions, Ive done more than a lot of people here to contribute to mame.  From donations to artwork. And advice and helpful post on this very site, well often.

[Haze]

Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

I firmly believe you are.  It's a lot easier to learn to program than it is to learn to play a game with controls your body doesn't want to work with.  I wasn't born with the ability to program, I had to learn it, which was hard work.  I was born with piss-poor co-ordination, and nothing is going to change that.

[Hoopz]

Again, you continue to directly insult my ability based on your own personal opinions.  I hereby simply request that saint ban you, and your constant trolling from these forums.  I can't remember the last time you made a worthwhile contribution here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 You could say that you directly insulted me by telling me I was too lazy to program.

I firmly believe you are.  It's a lot easier to learn to program than it is to learn to play a game with controls your body doesn't want to work with.  I wasn't born with the ability to program, I had to learn it, which was hard work.  I was born with piss-poor co-ordination, and nothing is going to change that.

Not that I want to defend X, but I don't think good programmers understand how difficult it is for some people to learn it (programming).  My last (only) programming class was in 1986 and I sucked.  There's no way I could ever learn it.  It's exactly like learning a foreign language and I tried two different languages and sucked ass at them too.  And it pains me to say that X's analogy about drawing is spot on. 

The rest of his comments are idiotic though. 

[Xiaou2]

Haze, when I was young... I had a speach impediment, was frail, clumsy, short, and sick very often. I also was found to have dyslexia. (see, read, write letters/numbers backwards & all directions)   I had an imagination that wouldnt stop.. and the room came to life - as I couldnt focus at all.

 Over the years, all this would be overcame.

 The worst was when they tried to put me in with the mentally handicapped kids... because they thought I would be too frail to go to regular gym class. 

 I hated this, as I knew I was not handicapped.. just a little slower, and a little frail.
I worked my --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- off, and eventually, was able to get out of there, and back to regular classes.

 Skip years later, when I was 20, and decided to take up martial arts.  In only a years time... I went from being clumsy and uncoordinated, as well as weak and frail... to being a graceful as a cat, powerful as hell, and a body that could take extreme punishment without ill effect or much pain at all.

 Physical attributes are Far easier to overcome than any mental issues. You cant just raise your IQ in a year by 50%.  But you can master robotron with 2 real controllers in far less than that.  Anyone can.  And we are taking a few hours worth of play.  Not months of practice... and not years.

[Haze]

Not that I want to defend X, but I don't think good programmers understand how difficult it is for some people to learn it (programming).  My last (only) programming class was in 1986 and I sucked.  There's no way I could ever learn it.  It's exactly like learning a foreign language and I tried two different languages and sucked ass at them too.  And it pains me to say that X's analogy about drawing is spot on. 

It's simple logic, and remembering a few keywords really.  Nothing more, as long as you can think things through logically in your head, and come to reasonable conclusions, and come up with a workable solution to the problem then the actual programming is the least of your worries..

Actually I think I'm starting to see why he struggles with it...

[Haze]

Physical attributes are Far easier to overcome than any mental issues. You cant just raise your IQ in a year by 50%.  But you can master robotron with 2 real controllers in far less than that.  Anyone can.  And we are taking a few hours worth of play.  Not months of practice... and not years.

Well I'm inclined to think the complete opposite of you.  I can always learn more, but I'll always be clumsy, have shaky hands, and poor coordination.  That's why I work with computers, not do sport, music or anything like that.  Seriously, you could make me practice on it for years, and I still won't be that good at it, yet I can play it naturally with a controller that suits me fine, even if I can't think of any other game I play that uses dual analog sticks in the same way.

It's subjective, and if asked my preference to play Robotron I'd say a Dualshock pad, or even a keyboard.

[Xiaou2]

But its not simple logic.  Its computer logic.. and its complicated as hell. Its not like talking to a person.  Its like trying to learn Chinese after you have gotten older.  Your mind is less absorbent, and it takes years and years just to even sound like a Child to them.

 But its even worse than Chinese. Because its not simple language... there is a lot of math involved in there too.  So you need to have great memory for holding all the commands, typing all those commands in the correct syntax which the computer likes, and then undedrstanding how to use the correct mathmatical formulas to work for you in the best way.  On top of all that... you need to understand the hardware limits of the things you are operating.

 Sure, A person with a 90 IQ is still going to have to work hard to get the skills they need to program well.  However, a person with a 40? IQ isnt going to be able to do more than:

10 Print "Hello"
20 End

 But take a person with poor coordination, and I could have them accurate, fast, balanced, and graceful in a year or two at max.  Physical coodination is mostly due to a lack of muscles in specific areas... as well as the lack of mental focus, on top of poor practice, and possible lack of confidence.  All of which are pretty easy to fix.  IQ? Not so easy to fix.

[Haze]

But its not simple logic.  Its computer logic.. and its complicated as hell. Its not like talking to a person.  Its like trying to learn Chinese after you have gotten older.  Your mind is less absorbent, and it takes years and years just to even sound like a Child to them.

 But its even worse than Chinese. Because its not simple language... there is a lot of math involved in there too.  So you need to have great memory for holding all the commands, typing all those commands in the correct syntax which the computer likes, and then undedrstanding how to use the correct mathmatical formulas to work for you in the best way.  On top of all that... you need to understand the hardware limits of the things you are operating.

For the most part you have a reference, so you don't have to learn that much.  Especially these days with online help and full searching of projects the answer to any problem is rarely a few clicks away.

As for logic, it's mostly 'if this is true, execute this sequence of commands, if it isn't true then execute this sequence instead and 'repeat x y times'

The actual computer logic is no different to any real life logic, planning, flowcharts, production / manufacturing processes.  The only thing you need to be weary of is to cover all realistic possibilities.  The computer does what you tell it, nothing less, nothing more.  If you solution has no holes in it, then your program will work.  If there are flaws in your solution, it won't.

Most of the time I've found people who struggle with programming can't see the flaws in their own logic, even if that logic has very little to do with the actual programming, more to do with glaring holes in their theories and solutions, just because they don't consider the possibility of something happening, or just think the computer will understand something, without actually being told it, or having a case to handle it.

The maths is hard, I'm not even that good at maths, I look most of it up when I need it.

The rest (especially emulation) is bitwise logic (and, xor, or), which again isn't that tricky.

The computer doesn't have personality, it doesn't have emotion, it doesn't jump to conclusions, it just executes the series of commands you give it, with the parameters you give it.

I've found that people who are bad at programming tend to be bad at logic in general, and almost impossible to explain things to in terms of logic, or expect reasonable, logical conclusions from.  That's just my experience with people.

[Xiaou2]

I want to add, that if you look around, you can find people who have had their limbs chooped off, and they were able to learn to do certain things like eat with their feet.  Some of them being incredibly accurate, doing things more carefully than people with all of their limbs.

 This of course wasnt the case initially.  They made the decision that they wanted to improve their physical abilities... rather than be spoon fed.  Which obviously would take a lot more effort than simply working your existing muscles and coordination.

 Typical daily tasks dont challenge the body or stress your muscles into good developemental status.  Only things like martial arts, which are highly focused events, will develop the body into a well honed machine.   Other things like Dancing
could help too.   And while sports Can help... the main problem with sports is that there is less focus on an individual, and more on the team... thus, there is not enough attention, focus, and training put on you.  Progress would only then be made IF you yourself had drive like nobody else... and maybe some side help from people willing to spend time helping develop key aspects.

[Haze]

I want to add, that if you look around, you can find people who have had their limbs chooped off, and they were able to learn to do certain things like eat with their feet.  Some of them being incredibly accurate, doing things more carefully than people with all of their limbs.

 This of course wasnt the case initially.  They made the decision that they wanted to improve their physical abilities... rather than be spoon fed.  Which obviously would take a lot more effort than simply working your existing muscles and coordination.

 Typical daily tasks dont challenge the body or stress your muscles into good developemental status.  Only things like martial arts, which are highly focused events, will develop the body into a well honed machine.   Other things like Dancing
could help too.   And while sports Can help... the main problem with sports is that there is less focus on an individual, and more on the team... thus, there is not enough attention, focus, and training put on you.  Progress would only then be made IF you yourself had drive like nobody else... and maybe some side help from people willing to spend time helping develop key aspects.

Believe me, I've been to various rehabilitation courses, gym, sport, all that nonsense.. in the end, none of it helps.  I usually just end up crippling myself somehow.  It's not for lack of want, trying, or guidance, I just suck as far as anything physical is concerned.  It doesn't bother me, so I stick to what I can do instead rather than driving myself through hell and breaking myself doing something I can't.

Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?

How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.

If I can play better with a given controller, that controller is the better one for the game as far as I'm concerned.  I can concentrate on learning the patterns and playing the game, not the stress of trying to deal with controls I can't deal with.

Seriously, it would be easier for you to learn programming because it isn't even remotely complex compared to most every day tasks.

[Xiaou2]

Actually, Im fairly good at logically reasoning things out.  But that had not helped me when I went to try to program my c64 and later, the Amiga.

 You input commands in a certain way that You think makes perfect literal sense,
and it gives you the e-bird.

 If programming were as easy as you say, then this entire forum would have long since put the needed stuff into mame.   The rates for programming saleries would drop by 80%, and much more.

 Its easy for you, because you have a brain that works and thinks a certain way.  And because of that, for you... it seems like everyone should find it exactly as easy as you do.  You simply cant see the logic in it, because you dont know what its like to have Mush inside your head.  Your mind is like Arnorld Schwarzenegger lifting up a tree.. and not understanding why everyone cant lift up a tree.  Its Easy Man!  Watch... Grunt.

 You are trying to pin me not having logic, as a reason why i cant learn.. but in fact Ive found the opposite.  Very intelligent people I find often have the hardest time with logic on a real-life basis.   For example, my brother is a genius... but when his car got clipped by a deer, he didnt get an alignment as advised.  As a result, he needed new tires in a very short time.   And thats just a simple example.  A lot of intelligent people have the absolute worst time with human to human relationships.  Its far easier to talk to a computer than a real person for them. Im not saying Im the best... In fact, I can be a jerk, but in person, I can be one of the nicer people you might meet.

 Personally, I dont like to take personal pot-shots at peoples weaknesses.. but when you try to put them on me, I have little choice.