Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!  (Read 43214 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« on: November 12, 2010, 04:02:30 am »
At first I thought everyone on the Internet copied one the same article about "Yie Ar Kung-Fu", and with it the same mistake about how many buttons this game uses.

But, I just saw a photo of the original control panel and there were indeed only two buttons.

However, if you play the game in MAME and try to use the third button you may notice it is fully functional. So, if the 1st button is "punch modifier" and the 2nd button is "kick modifier", then the third button is "jump modifier", and is quite useful I might add.


Does anyone, or everyone, already know about this, and what's the story behind it?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 04:05:54 am by abaraba »
---Perm Ban, again---

abispac

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1624
  • Last login:Yesterday at 04:27:58 pm
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 11:23:47 am »
weird, i got years of playing yiear kungfu, and always use only 2 butons, never saw an original cab with 3, to jump i use the joystick, so i wonderhow the 3 butons setup would  feel like during play time.

Havok

  • Keeper of the __Blue_Stars___
  • Trade Count: (+17)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4530
  • Last login:June 22, 2025, 02:32:40 am
  • Insufficient facts always invite danger.
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 11:50:41 am »
It's a hoax I tell you!

Rick

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2787
  • Last login:May 19, 2025, 11:21:11 am
  • Bartop, Cocktail and Pinball Arcade Cabinets
    • Gameroom Designs Canada
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 02:00:05 pm »
Does anyone, or everyone, already know about this, and what's the story behind it?

I heard about it a long time ago.  I don't know when it came out but everybody always said, "It's the new model Yie Ar."

 ;D

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 07:56:39 pm »
weird, i got years of playing yiear kungfu, and always use only 2 butons, never saw an original cab with 3, to jump i use the joystick, so i wonderhow the 3 butons setup would  feel like during play time.

Without 3rd button I can barely pass "Star", while with it I can almost beat all of them. It is extremely useful since with it you can do shorter and longer jumps, and I find jumps are critical to beating most of the opponents, at least the way I play it.


Why do you wonder, why just not try it out?

Without 3rd button you have only two kinds of jump, with it you have 10, or so.

---Perm Ban, again---

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 08:21:10 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

---Perm Ban, again---

CapriRS302

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 89
  • Last login:June 02, 2011, 01:26:47 pm
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 11:19:23 pm »
I loved this game as a kid.

That list said that there is no time limit, but there is.  That's how I beat half of the harder opponents, just got a few hits on them and jumped around for five minutes.  The music picks up then the round times out, and you win.

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2010, 01:59:31 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

To be fair ... I have yet to see a piece of actual documentation that mentions a 3rd button, including the actual manual.

I suggest that we let the MAMEDevs, even the baby ones, decide what is best for MAME, as opposed to opening discussion up to the the mob of whiny bitches who don't do their research and then complain about things that they get for free and play illegally.

 :droid

Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 02:37:30 pm »
Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality.

 If someone wants to virtually wire the other button in, as was originally deigned to do so... then so be it.  Its not much different than the ability to use the Cheat engine... except that is actually MORE LEGIT than a cheat... as a cheat is a hack that wouldnt be as simple as two wires feeding onto the pcb.

 Another example of this atrocity... was the decision to eliminate stereo sound from certain games just because the cabinets were released with mono speaker setups.  The game itself outputs stereo, and the music was designed for stereo.. .and any Op could have easily rewired the cab in seconds to get that Stereo sound.  (or put the PCB in a cab that had stereo speakers)

 The choice to disallow it is pathetic, and has no good reasoning behind it.

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2010, 03:49:51 pm »
I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA.

So, unless I am wrong about the accuracy of the emulation (which I doubt), disconnecting the interface for a button for which there was no interface (check the pinouts), is, to my mind, EXACTLY how it exists in reality.

The childish whining about it elevates the whole thing a new level of dooshiness.
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

TOK

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3604
  • Last login:January 24, 2024, 05:14:24 pm
  • The Game Always Wins
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2010, 08:10:24 pm »
Interesting topic! I think they should have left it in there, and it would be interesting to see if anyone ever wired the extra button on dedicated hardware.

Very possible that Konami just left it undocumented because it was an easier conversion without it. One and two button games were much more common. Its hurting nothing to be there and actually emulates the original hardware, even if nobody used it.

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2010, 08:16:07 pm »
It's a hoax I tell you!

So, I gather not many people know about this after all, and it is not surprise considering some moron have thrown out that functionality starting from MAME 0.104u3.

http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/romset/yiear

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.

It is amazing how baby programmers have ruined MAME, and what is worse this particular change is actually contrary to MAME already ridiculous "theoretical correctness", as opposed to "practical correctness", i.e. if the original PCB indeed have that functionality then MAME ought to emulate it in order to preserve it, and whether will the 3rd button be wired and actually used is up to cabinet builder, not stupid MAME developer and operators manual. Luigi, you moron!

To be fair ... I have yet to see a piece of actual documentation that mentions a 3rd button, including the actual manual.

I suggest that we let the MAMEDevs, even the baby ones, decide what is best for MAME, as opposed to opening discussion up to the the mob of whiny bitches who don't do their research and then complain about things that they get for free and play illegally.

 :droid



It's called public scrutiny and criticism, it is a good thing.


You believe there are some 'MAME developer' gatherings and voting when such decisions are made? Do you believe all the other MAME developers approve, or even know of all the changes being made? What if that guy Luigi is some crazy kid who made these changes without consulting anyone and you now live with it because no one in public criticize or questions such decisions, because everyone believes "MAME developers" know what are they doing and is inappropriate to criticize?


Who makes and approves these decisions? All the MAME developers, or perhaps just a small group of people who might very well have different opinion than everyone else, including the rest, the majority, of MAME developers?

---Perm Ban, again---

Siris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Last login:September 15, 2023, 09:13:08 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2010, 08:43:17 pm »
Hey abaraba,

Seriously you are the one here that sounds like the child/moron/crazy kid!

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason Konami did not make the third button available as part of the final game is because it made the game too easy? You said your self with it you can beat just about all the enemies. Arcade games were made to earn money not to be easy.

Mame emulates the games as close as possible to the way the game was in the arcade and the way the manufacturer intended it to be played. Just because you suck at the game without what is essentially a cheat doesn't mean you have the right to call any dev. names for correcting improper documentation.

Here is a link to the manual for the game it's obvious that Konami did NOT intend there to be a JUMP button so please stop crying and calling names about Mame's emulation.

http://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/Y/YieArKung-Fu.pdf
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 08:50:58 pm by Siris »

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 08:50:38 pm »
I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA.

So, unless I am wrong about the accuracy of the emulation (which I doubt), disconnecting the interface for a button for which there was no interface (check the pinouts), is, to my mind, EXACTLY how it exists in reality.

The childish whining about it elevates the whole thing a new level of dooshiness.

Your mistake is to think MAME emulates "cabinets".

Cabinet is wood, sticks, monitor, wires and artwork. PCB is integrated electronics, it's separate, independent and exchangeable part, it is what MAME emulates. Further, PCB can be split into "hardware" and "software" part, MAME only needs to emulate the "hardware" part, and the "software", the actual game application, should not be changed, ever.


Did they mess with "software" or "hardware" part to disable this 3rd button? The real question here is whether the original PCB has actual output pin for the 3rd button, can it be practically wired, or is this 3rd button only supported in software though either way this functionality should be preserved, one way or another.



By the way, last night I ordered the actual "Yie Ar Kung-Fu" PCB from QuarterArcade.com, plus "Popeye" and "Karate Champ"... maybe I am mistaken, but $40 for each seem like extremely low price for these three great games. I wish I knew about those guys before, I thought the only place to buy these things were on-line auctions. Is there any other, maybe even cheaper, place like QuarterArcade selling (working/tested) classic arcade PCBs?
---Perm Ban, again---

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 08:58:21 pm »
Hey abaraba,

Seriously you are the one here that sounds like the child/moron/crazy kid!

No, it is you who failed to understand what we are talking about.

Does that make you a moron, crazy kid?


Xiaou2:
- "Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality."

Agree, disagree?


MAME are not porting or re-making these games, manual is not electronics blue-print of the PCB, nor is it the assembler listing of the game application, hence is completely irrelevant for the emulation, can you grasp that?

« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:00:08 pm by abaraba »
---Perm Ban, again---

Siris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Last login:September 15, 2023, 09:13:08 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2010, 09:08:06 pm »
Mame obviously does emulate the third button which you figured out how to configure and then you started whining about Mame not making it default.

BTW your idea of what MAME is is terribly flawed as Xiaou2 will attest to but hey go ahead and take it up with the Devs. on the mameworld boards if you like. I'm sure you will get about as far as he did.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 09:11:21 pm by Siris »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2010, 09:08:37 pm »
Except that its not improper emulation, If the function exist in the code of the game.

 Its merely a hardware connect or disconnect.

 Same for the Stereo sound in a games Code that exists, and is OUTPUT.  Just because the actual cabinet the pcb was housed in didnt have 2 speakers (cost cutting), or it was wired as mono... does not change the fact that the game was designed with stereo sound... and could EASILY be hooked up by anyone, by hooking on to the output pins.

 If the game PCB is outputting stereo, then for a mame dev to take away the ability to hear it, shows that they are not representing the hardware accurately.

 Just because some corporate dirtbag wanted to cut cost with mono speakers, does not mean that games truly designed intent should not be able to be experienced.

 How difficult would it be to add such options to the cheat engine?  I doubt it would take much effort at all.  Its just pure analism / ocd, without any real understanding / respect for the creativity for the games themselves.

 While Im not saying I agree with cheating on Yie Ar, as they did decide to remove the button (unless it was merely a way to make it easier to test levels)... it IS part of the history of the game. (and it is still part of the game)  And all such history should be preserved and experienced at will of the user.

 As long as the user understands that the 3rd button or stereo sound was not the way the game was finally presented, there is no harm at all in leaving the user to the exact things that they could experience if they owned the PCBs + a soldering iron.

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2010, 09:17:28 pm »
Also, anyone who uses the term ---meecrob---, is low extremely low class, and out the think about the meaning of the words that fly out of their mouths.

 A lot of woman would be extremely upset to hear or read such a word being used as an insult.  Its simple feminine hygiene.  Your girls and wives probably use it without you even knowing it.  It does not mean a woman is 'dirty' for using it... and it has no basis as being used as a negative insult.

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2010, 11:16:26 pm »
Mame obviously does emulate the third button which you figured out how to configure and then you started whining about Mame not making it default.

No, not any more.

- 0.104u3: Luigi30 removed P1/2 Button 3 based on the operators manual.


Ok, so now that this has been brought to your attention, again... what do you think about it? Did they not break their own rules with this one?


Quote
BTW your idea of what MAME is is terribly flawed as Xiaou2 will attest to but hey go ahead and take it up with the Devs. on the mameworld boards if you like. I'm sure you will get about as far as he did.

I think Xiaou2 shares the same point of view here as me. I think you too agree with us, only you spoke without realizing this functionality was actually thrown away.

...
The thing with mono/stereo sound I did not know about, that is far worse than yiear's 3rd button, it's hideous. It seems baby developers started to believe they are supposed to emulate "cabinets", as opposed to actual PCBs. I don't know what say on that, I'm laughing.... and, I'm not whining, I kind of don't care about it, I stopped updating MAME about the time they went from DOS to Windows.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 11:18:52 pm by abaraba »
---Perm Ban, again---

Siris

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Last login:September 15, 2023, 09:13:08 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2010, 02:20:12 am »
No, you are whining!

That is the whole point of your argument.

Gray_Area

  • -Banned-
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3363
  • Last login:June 23, 2013, 06:52:30 pm
  • -Banned-
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2010, 04:34:51 am »
No, you are whining!

That is the whole point of your argument.

Do you think he's whining because of what he's saying?...or because of the wording he's using?
-Banned-

abaraba

  • ---Perm Ban---
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 138
  • Last login:July 30, 2011, 08:42:58 am
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2010, 04:50:43 am »
Siris,
Ok, I'm whining, what's your point? I'm not arguing, I am asking you for your opinion first - do you think they made a good decision to remove this functionality based on 'operators manual', or not? I also ditto Gray_Area question, it is not quite clear why are you "against" me. If you are just mad at me for my insults to "baby developers", then you are right, it was completely unnecessary, perhaps that's what you call "whining", nevertheless I still stand behind my words. What now, we still don't know the important part - who's right, and who is wrong?


Anyway, the whole point of this thread is to answer this question:

Q.) does original 'Yie Ar Kung-Fu'  PCB have a pin for the 3rd button, and would just additional wire on a harness be enough to "unlock" this functionality (Easter Egg), or perhaps it would require some electrical modification on the PCB itself, and maybe it is not practically quite possible to use this functionality with actual PCB at all.

I also want to know at what point was this 3rd button abandoned by Konami... were they ever planning for it to be in the game or is it just some hack programmers did for fun. Without this sort of information we can't properly argue about whether the decision to throw out this functionality from MAME has any reasonable justification behind it, or not.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 05:08:38 am by abaraba »
---Perm Ban, again---

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2010, 07:46:58 am »
Luigi is not a MAME developer, he's an external contributor like you or anybody else posting here.

If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

That's how things work.

Just seems like another excuse to have a go at the developers to me.

(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

There should probably be an additional layer of abstraction but that's a significant amount of work which would touch every single part of MAME, and right now nobody on the team seems to have the motivation to even reparent a couple of sets that need reparenting never mind write completely new sub-systems.  It's dead, as you might say, and yes, being bitched at for every last change which isn't just refactoring something no doubt has something to do with that)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:29:51 am by Haze »

Hoopz

  • Don't brand me a troublemaker!
  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5285
  • Last login:June 13, 2025, 09:18:32 pm
  • Intellivision Rocks!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2010, 08:18:01 am »
Except that its not improper emulation, If the function exist in the code of the game.

 Its merely a hardware connect or disconnect.

 Same for the Stereo sound in a games Code that exists, and is OUTPUT.  Just because the actual cabinet the pcb was housed in didnt have 2 speakers (cost cutting), or it was wired as mono... does not change the fact that the game was designed with stereo sound... and could EASILY be hooked up by anyone, by hooking on to the output pins.

 If the game PCB is outputting stereo, then for a mame dev to take away the ability to hear it, shows that they are not representing the hardware accurately.

 Just because some corporate dirtbag wanted to cut cost with mono speakers, does not mean that games truly designed intent should not be able to be experienced.

 How difficult would it be to add such options to the cheat engine?  I doubt it would take much effort at all.  Its just pure analism / ocd, without any real understanding / respect for the creativity for the games themselves.

 While Im not saying I agree with cheating on Yie Ar, as they did decide to remove the button (unless it was merely a way to make it easier to test levels)... it IS part of the history of the game. (and it is still part of the game)  And all such history should be preserved and experienced at will of the user.

 As long as the user understands that the 3rd button or stereo sound was not the way the game was finally presented, there is no harm at all in leaving the user to the exact things that they could experience if they owned the PCBs + a soldering iron.

Then code it up ---smurfette---.  Seriously, either code it up and be a part of the solution or quit bitching about those who don't do what you want with their time.  You ---smurfette--- and whine but never do anything to help fix the code that you freak out about.  You don't have constructive criticism.  You ---smurfette--- without offering to get involved to fix it.

And if you can't code, then why ---smurfette--- to Haze or anyone about how they are ---smurfing--- things up?  At least they have the talent to try and it doesn't matter if they agree with your agenda or not.  It's their time, they can do what they want.

Before the mob decides that Mame is wrong, has anyone actually seen documentation stating that they did something that is incorrect or are a few people trying to bully their way into stuff?

X, whip out your nazi analogies now.  You can't see the forest for the trees.  :troll:

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 08:28:38 am by Hoopz »

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2010, 08:32:55 am »
Shades of the Belligerent Kool-Aid Man ... telling everybody else the facts not actually having worked with the elements in question.

RTFW if you want to find vendors.

 :whap
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 08:42:20 am »
Also, anyone who uses the term ---meecrob---, is low extremely low class, and out the think about the meaning of the words that fly out of their mouths.

 A lot of woman would be extremely upset to hear or read such a word being used as an insult.  Its simple feminine hygiene.  Your girls and wives probably use it without you even knowing it.  It does not mean a woman is 'dirty' for using it... and it has no basis as being used as a negative insult.

I have a wife, 3 sisters and a daughter.

I KNOW what a ---meecrob--- is.

I also know what a Xiaou2 is.
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

garnerb350

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 892
  • Last login:May 09, 2019, 09:36:49 pm
  • Crowded elevators smell different to midgets...
    • Hyperspin
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 08:43:31 am »
 :laugh2:
“If first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you..." ~ Jack Handy

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2010, 09:02:50 am »
Luigi is not a MAME developer

Neither are you.


and that is relevant how?  I have no desire to be an official part of the dev team which is as good as dead anyway.  My point is that people are bitching about the dev team over a change which didn't even come from the dev team.  People are also bitching about the dev team because apparently changes from outside the dev team are always ignored / overlooked.

The very same people are bitching about both cases!

See the issue?

Anyway, as I said, from where I'm sitting the project looks stone dead, you have your wish.  (and FYI given that I still have an account and access to the official, private MAME SVN server your claim is stretching it anyway)

To my knowledge nobody is working on anything interesting, there have been no noteworthy changes in the last 5 days, and relatively simple tasks aren't even being performed so good luck in trying to convince anybody to make major functional changes adding new & useful features.  A feeler mail out to the actual dev team yielded no results, so I'd say at this point it's pretty much up to the community to further the project which based on posts here you should be more than capable of doing.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 09:27:24 am by Haze »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2010, 12:27:40 pm »
So what you are saying, is that its too hard to actually preserve games as they should be preserved... and so just forget about it.

 And then you are trying to say, that because people who have passion for these games gets angered at mames "Pick and Choose"  attitudes of Importance,
that they will get all bent out of shape and quit.

 
Quote
My point is that people are bitching about the dev team over a change which didn't even come from the dev team.

 The decision to accept that, was from the Devs, as was the choice to make certain games mono, even though they had a stereo feed that could be easily tapped into with a real pcb.

 Its understandable that we do not want people to mistake that the 3rd button was part of the experience.  And geez, lets not forget to drill it into peoples minds that some companies wanted to skimp on speakers, and made a stereo game mono. However... when you open up ANY mame game, go into the controller options... you are barraged with more control options than existed in the game.
 
 Who would know, without looking at a games manual, what the game really used?  Is it optical, analog, or digital? Mame can use them all - even if the game didnt intend that... which is ok... BUT, it should be in some way differentiated so that the user understands what is what.
 
 You could solve this as easy as changing the font color of things that were not original to the cabinet.  You could add it to the Cheat engine (it being things like the 3rd button).  You could enforce the controller defined rules (trackball = mouse).   You could add a sub menu under controls as "ALT Controls" (Alternate control configuration).


 Mames biggest problem seem like there is little forethought about the future.  Its why entire sections of the main code are re-coded over and over again...  and yet still, there are things which dont work, dont fit, arnt accessible, arnt being preserved / preserved well... etc.

 People who love these games are not going to be happy about loss or lack of.  Heck, even developers of the ORIGINAL MACHINES, would be ticked off at things like "changed game to mono sound to better emulate the released cabinet".
If the very guy who composed the stereo tracks in a game has no option to hear his masterworks, how do you think he would react & feel?
 
 Mame solution:  If you dont like it, learn to code like us.  

 Which is utter BS, and everyone, including the Devs know it.
Especially when most of the precious PCBs come from fellow game loving donators, the actual game developers, collectors, etc.

 Much of the stuff that people ask for is dead simple compared to the challenges that a Dev has encountered trying to emulate something.  Maybe it would take them 15 minutes to fix / install.  Which again, is another reason why people get upset.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 12:33:00 pm by Xiaou2 »

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2010, 12:54:35 pm »
That is complete and utter ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- Xiaou2!

The entire point of an open project like MAME is that everybody *can* contribute. If you can't contribute, other than to have repeated hissy fits, then STFU or learn how to contribute.

The people who are contributing are doing FAR more than the people who whine and ---smurfette---. Even a non-MAME guy like me can see the obvious truth of that statement. Haze and I don't agree on certain issues (or, we could, if there was a legal and economical way to accomodate what he will view as my transgressions), but I would never deign to cross over and criticize him for what he has done, unless I had walked that same path.

The problem that you have is that the nice folks who ACTUALLY DO THE WORK won't do what you say simply because you say it.

We have both contributed to the dumping projects (which, other than coding, is about the only way the rest of us can contribute to MAME), and I expect that I have contributed more in that regard than you have (despite my being low class  :afro:). The difference is that I don't expect them to do what I say any more than I expect saint to do what I say because I contribute here.

You will be the first person, and be 100% correct in saying so, that preserving the interfaces (e.g. the actual controls used) is important. Then, in the same breath, you are happy to ---smurfette--- about something as trivial as MONO vs STEREO or this stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade (I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought ... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion).

You, supposedly, managed an arcade.

As such, you should understand the economics of the business. Most games released in the time period you are talking about were conversions, not dedicated cabinets. The conversion standard was JAMMA, which did not include stereo.

WTF are you bitching about something that was never experienced by 99.5% of people in arcades, including yourself ?
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2010, 01:01:41 pm »
The decision was made with the evidence presented, as is the case with all external submissions.

and yes, if you want to change MAME, then it helps to learn how to program for it, this isn't rocket science, the actual devs have had to do the same.

Rewriting due to lack of foresight? strange, just before you were complaining about Mamedev not getting things done due to paranoia etc.  In reality Mamedev have been very good at getting things done, and has at various times outgrown the core code there to support it; it's still FAR more advanced than any other emulator out there in terms of core flexibility and expandability and most of the current limitations were ones nobody could have predicted 10+ years ago.

I imagine that most of the problems you perceive to be problems are of minimal concern to the devs now, let alone 10 years ago when the systems concerned were conceived.

The fact is, as you've been told many times, if you want something specific done you really need to do it yourself.  Why you seem to think this rule doesn't apply to you because you can't program I don't know.  It applies to every single person involved with the project.

In all your ramblings I've never seen you make a single valid, informed point, not even once.

People will complain either way, and as a result, it just gets blanked out, or the actual devs give up trying to make any changes in the knowledge that whatever they do somebody will complain at them.  This results to endless refactoring, with no REAL progress being made at all.  That's the state the project is in now.

You seem to want things both ways, to perfectly suit what you want / need which doesn't really agree with the majority.  It simply doesn't work like that, which is exactly why if that's what you want, then it's up to you to do it.

Anyway, the first point was the most important one, and, based on the evidence presented here, I'd say it was easy to understand why Luigi was able to present a good case for his change being applied.  If you wish to reverse it, as I've said, provide an equal countermeasure and submit a change to reverse it, or, come up with a better solution and implement it (rather than just telling other people to implement it)  It's a democratic process, and things are judged on their values and the case presented.

*cue more wah wah wah I'm not a programmer lines*

You really, really don't seem to get it.

Right now, the members of the dev team I talk to on a regular basis are pretty much fed up of everything, including the community, so, the community can do what the **** they want, on their own to improve things, and see how far that gets them without a ton of infighting because believe me, if all the changes you want made were implemented you'd get just as many people bitching at you because they want to use MAME with a standard PC and a keyboard, and can't develop or test anything properly anymore because it's overloaded with hacks for very specific use cases.

http://byuu.org/articles/bsnes-future is a prime example of what happens if a developer spends excessive time in trying to please the community, in the end, it gets them nowhere.  He added endless functions that _he_ didn't actually need, and yet still people bitched at him and used other emulators, despite bsnes offering all the requested functions, and a far superior level of SNES emulation.  In the end, he's jettisoned the lot of them so that he can concentrate on what he actually cares about; emulating the SNES.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:14:55 pm by Haze »

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2010, 01:12:27 pm »
While I hate to hear what Haze has to say about the effects of the community on the Dev team, it seems, in my mind, to be a parallel to what is happening in the "real" coinop collector world.

Those who "can't do" ---smurfette---.

Those who "can do" are tired of the bitching.

Not exactly a surprise.
Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2010, 01:22:03 pm »
Well the simple fact is that the bitching happens *whatever* decision is made.

If people want a MAME that's customized to their exact needs they have to make it themselves because there are too many people who want different things, and too many very specific cases which will require very specific hacks for half the things that are requested.  It's impossible for all permutations to be supported in the mainline.

Couple this with no devs actually working on anything right now, and all the bitching isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

MAME needs a new dev team.  The current one appears to have taken the project as far as they can / want to, bitching at them to take it further won't work.  I can honestly say that in 10 years I've never seen the project look so dead and this is despite the community pumping more money than ever into things like the Dumping Union to buy rare boards, even members of the Dumping Union are becoming frustrated because so few people on the team are making any effort to look at what's being dumped.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:31:38 pm by Haze »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2010, 01:30:50 pm »
You just spent 20 minutes writing a reply that you Know is highly flawed.

 Instead of acknowledging that there can be a solution for both ways, you insist that it has to be one way or the other... when in fact you KNOW that BS.

 Also, that 20 minutes could have been been put to making a simple text color change on the 3rd button, to signify that it wasnt part of the Cabinet, yet allow its functionality.

 And or putting an on/off switch on the game(s) that the stereo sound exists on, in the cheat menu.

 If i had a programmers brain, I would have long since ran circles around people like yourself, and actually got much more depth of preservation put into place.

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2010, 01:32:50 pm »
You just spent 20 minutes writing a reply that you Know is highly flawed.

 Instead of acknowledging that there can be a solution for both ways, you insist that it has to be one way or the other... when in fact you KNOW that BS.

 Also, that 20 minutes could have been been put to making a simple text color change on the 3rd button, to signify that it wasnt part of the Cabinet, yet allow its functionality.

 And or putting an on/off switch on the game(s) that the stereo sound exists on, in the cheat menu.

 If i had a programmers brain, I would have long since ran circles around people like yourself, and actually got much more depth of preservation put into place.


I could have done?  That's news to me.  I don't know how to do either of those things within the MAME architecture, nor am I especially motivated to learn how because neither bothers me even remotely; I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.

If you had a programmers brain you probably wouldn't be making such a complete fool of yourself here, assuming things are a lot easier to implement / change than they actually are.  You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Even something like the code to support guns is an absolute support nightmare, as different manufacturers use different standards, no devs can actually test the code, and specific hacks are needed all over the place due to weird behavior, and people expecting non-gun (analog sticks pointing at a screen) to work with actual guns.  I wouldn't be surprised if the temptation was there to rip it out completely.  Start applying that logic to every possibly thing in MAME and you just end up with code that you can't maintain, and want to close your eyes and wish would go away, so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:42:25 pm by Haze »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2010, 01:44:56 pm »
Quote
I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.
And that is the problem.  People like you who do not understand the value of real preservation.  Half-Ass everything.

Quote
You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Actually no, Ive tried to learn.  But I dont have the kind of mind that excels at it.  We all have out limitations in life, and Im very realistic about what I can and can not do - even though I have tried in my past.

 I could say the same thing about people with Art.  "Ohh, the reason you cant draw a good picture is cause your too lazy".  But that would be complete BS.  Being an artist is not merely a set of rules and practice.  Artists think and see things differently than other types of minds... and as such, there are some things that just cant be taught or developed to anywhere near the same level by people who are not of that mindtype.

 Your limited perspective and complete ignorance blinds you to the reality that really exists.

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2010, 01:50:46 pm »
Quote
I'm quite happy with MAME as it is now.
And that is the problem.  People like you who do not understand the value of real preservation.  Half-Ass everything.

Quote
You're just too lazy to actually bother to learn to program.

Actually no, Ive tried to learn.  But I dont have the kind of mind that excels at it.  We all have out limitations in life, and Im very realistic about what I can and can not do - even though I have tried in my past.

Then you can't really complain about things can you?  You say you have limitations, but refuse to acknowledge the limitations of the current dev team, but instead would rather insult them for it?  I don't know how to make the chances you want, they don't concern me, I have no reason to look into making them apart from you demanding I do so.  I'm happy to have played my role.

I could just as easily say your efforts to learn to program were half-ass.

I told you, if you want the changes made that you suggest, you need a NEW dev team.  Nicola took the project as far as he could.  I took the project as far as I could, now Aaron has taken it as far as he can IMHO.  The problem is that unlike when I took over from Nicola, and Aaron took over from me, Aaron doesn't really have much of a team left.

The fact that you're willing to write off the tremendous amount of work that has gone into MAME as half-ass and sit here calling myself and other developers who have dedicated years of our free time to working on it 'blind' shows exactly how much we should value your opinion, and gratefulness for the things that are done and how important the work that HAS been done is important to overall preservation picture.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:04:18 pm by Haze »

Xiaou2

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4134
  • Last login:June 11, 2025, 11:55:17 pm
  • NOM NOM NOM
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2010, 01:52:17 pm »
Its funny how you go from the complexity of "change text color" to Lightgun.

 But whatever.. anyone can see right through that bs.

Quote
so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.

 Strange, cause lightguns do work in mame, as do all the other things in it, that have been working for some time.

 However, the problem is not about dual choice of controls... its about the ways in which they are programmed in.  If mames input system wasnt such a mess, it would be a lot more maintainable.  Less resembling hacks, and much more structured.

Haze

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1296
  • Last login:October 04, 2023, 08:30:02 am
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
    • MAME Development Blog
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2010, 01:56:24 pm »
Its funny how you go from the complexity of "change text color" to Lightgun.

 But whatever.. anyone can see right through that bs.

Quote
so no, having it both ways for every possible case you can think of is not a workable solution, at all.

 Strange, cause lightguns do work in mame, as do all the other things in it, that have been working for some time.

 However, the problem is not about dual choice of controls... its about the ways in which they are programmed in.  If mames input system wasnt such a mess, it would be a lot more maintainable.  Less resembling hacks, and much more structured.


Well to me, changing the colour of text in some core menu is just as much of a big task as the lightgun support, because both are areas of the codebase I know nothing about.  Again, your ignorance is showing through.  Text colour changes would probably involve significant changes to the UI rendering system, as well as the inputport system, both of which are areas of the code I don't touch because they don't concern my work on the project at all.

As for lightguns? Do they work?  The amount of bitching that occurs about them on a regular basis makes me think otherwise, and given only a fraction of the userbase even use them, it makes me think they probably aren't really reliable.

I've already said another level of abstraction would help.  I've told you that there is nobody to code this.  The MAME input system is fine for 99.99% of users tho, so, apart from demand once again that I do the work for you, and insulting me for not doing it, what are you going to do?

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 02:06:49 pm by Haze »

CheffoJeffo

  • Cheffo's right! ---saint
  • Wiki Master
  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7782
  • Last login:Today at 08:28:41 am
  • Worthless button pusher!
Re: Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2010, 02:01:21 pm »
If i had only had a programmers brain



Working: Not Enough
Projects: Too Many
Progress: None