Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!

[Lilwolf]

btw, cant you just map the up to a button 3 and unmap up?  Or did it do something else? 

I, in the arcade, destroyed the first piece of hardware on this game.  I was playing a game in college at a local convience center, the diaginals on th ejoystick wasn't registering, I hit it in anger a few times because it wouldn't go diagonal.. and the freakin joystick flew across the room...  I turned and walked out... never went back...  a jump button would have saved them a E clamp.

[Xiaou2]

Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?

- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.

How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.

- Because Robotron is precisely balanced.  You need all the help you can get.  If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15.  But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.

 Why?  Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort.  And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.

 An analogy I was going to post earlier:

 Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car.   Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far.  The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.

 Why?  Because the F1 car is superior.  It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.

 And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.

 Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice.  You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you.  And you know what people did?  They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.

 Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.

 In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience.  If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet.  And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.

 Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.

[Haze]

Why should I do that for the sake of playing Robotron?

- If you are talking coordination, then its not for that.. but for sake of health.

How does forcing me to learn a controller I can't learn somehow make it a better controller for Robotron?

That's completely counter-intuitive to me.

- Because Robotron is precisely balanced.  You need all the help you can get.  If say you played the game for 1yr with a gamepad... you might reach level 15.  But, if you forced yourself to get used to the real controllers... in that same years time, you might reach level 50.

 Why?  Because the body can and does adapt given the time and effort.  And since the Wico leafs have a definite mechanical advantage over the gampad analogs, you will always do better in the long run with them.

 An analogy I was going to post earlier:

 Playing a game with the incorrect controller, is like trying to race your VW Beetle against a Formula 1 racing car.   Yes, you CAN drive and control the Beetle just fine... BUT, you will never really get very far.  The F1 car will lap you 5 to 1.

 Why?  Because the F1 car is superior.  It can accelerate faster, brake better, handle turns better, faster top speed..etc.

 And since the Race was designed to be driven with F1 cars, not Beetles... then to use a Beetle in an F1 race is not at all what the creator of the race intended.

 Back in the day when arcades were big, you didnt have a choice.  You either adapted, or got your butt handed to you.  And you know what people did?  They put more money into it, until they were able to adapt to the levels needed to do well in the game.

 Today, people can be lazy and cheat.. and since no money is on the line... a LOT of the real experience is lost. Your heart doesnt pound and shake thinking that this could be the end of that quarter. A Life has somehow lost its worth... and so people just dont get-it.

 In order for you to get-it... and understand the games real value.. you have to at least get to a certain level of experience.  If you cant make it to level 11 at least... then you pretty much dont get Robotron yet.  And if and when you do get it.. as many younger / uncoordinated people have, then your opinions will start to change about the equipment and purpose of these specially made and well designed controllers.

 Btw - My robotron playing buddy is not very well coordinated either.. and Ive just started to train him in Kungfu Actually... and his strength and coordination IS improving already, and its only been a month @ 2 days a week.

Again, your examples are completely crazy.

The difference between a dual shock analog stick and robotron's dual joysticks is NOTHING like the difference between a Beetle and an F1 car.

It's not even comparable.  This is just about the most absurd example you've come up with yet.

The F1 car has a clear and very obvious advantage as far as performing the required function is concerned, but as far as the controllers are concerned this is virtually no difference, and it could easily be argued that the analog stick, due to only requiring smaller movements (the deadzone isn't that big, and it's a smaller device) will give you far tighter and more accurate control anyway.  That's what I find.  I'd actually say the dualshock was a better controller than the antiquated original design.

Also, take into account things like height, on a real Robotron cabinet it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to play because I'm too tall, and sat down I have no leg room.  With a dualshock controller in the comfort of my own space I can play a much better game. The bottleneck of Robotron ability is not in the controls, but in your reactions, and ability to plan where you want to go / shoot.  Using real controls, even if I could use them perfectly would not change that.  I've never played the game with a dualshock and thought I died *because the controls sucked*.  Every time I died it's because I made the wrong decision.

If it wasn't subjective this argument wouldn't exist in the first place.  It's clearly *very* subjective.

[abaraba]

If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.


Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?

(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.


It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this back in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".

Agree, disagree?


The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.


 

...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade

What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought

Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.

... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?

[Haze]

If you feel the patch is wrong, submit another to undo it, with evidence supporting your case.  Luigi obviously submitted it with sufficient evidence to support the application of the patch.

Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.


Now, I'm afraid Luigi's "evidence" is simply 'operators manual', so let's start with your opinion - do you think 'operators manual' has any relevance to how MAME should emulate/preserve these games? Do *YOU* think the patch was wrong?

I imagine the operator manual was significant in the decision, as it shows how the game was meant to be used.  Cabinets of actual photos were probably also used.

Personally, I disagree and don't think the patch should have been applied, just the button unmapped by default, but some people consider forcing a button to be unmapped by default to be a worse hack.

Historically most of Luigi's submissions I dealt with myself came across as clueless, and I rejected them, and was heavily criticized (sometimes by people here) for doing so.  It appears this one was accepted at some point, and now people are being criticized for accepting it.

(and yes, MAME has emulated 'cabinets' at a certain level from day 1, disallowing opposite directions to be pressed at the same time and such because doing so will break quite a lot of games, eg. one of the Metal Slug games will reset if you press left and right at the same time!  Do you think there would be any less bitching if we decided to remove that 'cabinet' emulation so people could reset the game by accidentally pressing the left and right cursor keys at the same time?

Yes, I think it is hideous to play these games on a keyboard, so I do think that feature is completely unnecessary as once properly wired emulator computer should run without these problems, just like the actual PCB.


It is ridiculous to emulate "cabinets". So, they are going to record the sound from some cabinet and adjust the pitch in MAME to be like this particular recording when you play it on your PC speakers. But, when you put this in an actual cabinet it is not going to sound properly, which is why you need to emulate what PCB outputs/inputs, not some "cabinet".

Agree, disagree?

MAME is developed on a keyboard, and the majority of users use a keyboard.  The primary concern is that it works for the developers, otherwise it simply doesn't get developer, and the secondary concern is that it works for the majority of users, so that we don't get false bug reports.  My preference when playing / testing MAME is a keyboard, for some games which are exceptionally tricky with a keyboard I'll use a dualshock pad, or a 360 controller.  If those cases don't work, I can't develop the software and I can't test the software.  Your examples and arguments are as ridiculous as most of the others presented in this thread, and border on trolling.

Do I think there could / should be a layer of abstraction which would allow such things to be turned off, yes, I've stated this.  I'm not about to program one tho, because I don't think it's that important.

I think there should be an option whereby all inputs, be they dipswitches or joysticks need to be fed in externally, and MAME does no processing at all of the inputs, and the only thing that works is exactly what the original software is expecting.  That would be unusable for 99.99% of the population tho, and you couldn't expect any help at all from the developers in using MAME in such a mode, because none of the developers will have used it, or tested it in that mode, much as the external LED signaling is handled right now.  Should MAME emulate pinball tables and other mostly mechanical games they would run exclusively in this mode, because simulation of the actual tables is nothing to do with MAME (it's too complex to even attempt unlike the simple cabinet features which are handled)

If MAME did not emulate some kind of cabinet responses then some games (I believe Afterburner comes to mind) would not function at all, because they expect to test, and have valid responses from the cabinet motors or control devices.  It is therefore absolutely necessary that MAME emulates some cabinet features behind the scenes.

The funny part is that I can see how the difference can appear subtle to baby developers, but one only needs to think about emulating wood, plastic and metal sticks to realize this is not stuff to be emulated by software. Closest thing to "emulating" cabinet is to make it out of cardboard, or something, nothing else makes sense really. Actually, emulating CRT with scan-lines and such is the only one of these 'cabinet emulation' *hacks* that makes sense due to unavailability of arcade monitors, still it's quite irrelevant to preservation/emulation of the games.


 

...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade

What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought

Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.

... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?

If you're going to continue to insult the developers by referring to them as 'baby developers' you will not be taken seriously, period.  I remind you, it's not your project, it needs to work primarily for the developers, and main user base, not you.  That is the mature considered view of a development team who have been working on the emulator for longer than you've been using it.

[CheffoJeffo]

...stupid discussion about a 3rd button that never existed in the arcade

What is the meaning of "in the arcade"? Are you talking about some particular cabinet, about wood and plastic, or about the PCB?

"Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

I am curious how the OP is going to wire up that 3rd button on the board he just bought

Yes, that's the real question. There are two free pins on a Konami harness, so I'm going to try that, but I was hoping to get the answer before the PCB  arrives.

Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...  

... but he has a bigger problem with that Popeye board, audio amplification and video inversion.

I have no idea, will you tell me about it?

If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[TOK]

Ok, but first I want to know what majority here think about it. If the majority thinks the patch is ok, then the patch is ok - vox populi, vox dei.

I think the patch was unnecessary. If the 3rd button support existed in the original ROM's, it should be left alone.
Those who wish to play the game as it was in the arcades can just play it with 2 buttons.

In my opinion, something neat that exists in the real hardware is possibly being destroyed with this fix, even if it wasn't officially supported. It'd be cool to see this thread get back on track, especially if someone with a Yie Ar Kung Fu board could test functionality of a 3rd button.

[TOK]

Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...  

Its not really random. Yie Ar is Konami Classic, which is documented just like JAMMA and also has support for more than 3 buttons (my Moon War which is also Konami Classic is 4 buttons and a roller controller).

[Siris]

Looking at the schematics it looks like the best bet would be pins (A12 or N for P1) on the solder side and (B15 or 15 for P2) on the parts side of the Konami connector.

Again I believe that since Konami left these unpopulated, as in the harness did NOT have wires for these connections. They should not be set as a usable default button in MAME!
Being documented is an entirely different thing which I have no issue with.

Having it as a usable button would only misrepresent the physical history of the game and you would have people that NEVER actually played it on a REAL CAB make crazy childish claims like "stupid baby MAME developers Yie Ar Kung-Fu has THREE buttons, not TWO!?!"

[abaraba]

They should not be set as a usable default button in MAME!

Being documented is an entirely different thing which I have no issue with.

"un-usable" is exclusive of "default", these are two different things. Majority here thinks, so far, 3rd button should be usable, but not default. It is only you who supports the patch, only you think it should not be usable (available) at all, if I am interpreting you correctly.

Being "documented", in the context of MAME and hardware emulation, does mean being "emulated", which also means "usable" in this context. But again, we still do not know how "usable" was this 3rd button on an actual PCB, and if it was not easily accessible, then you will be the one who was right about it - I'll give you that, ok?

[abaraba]

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

If you can be more specific in relation to this: - "Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

MAME is THE document you want to be relying on here, that or the actual PCB, which is also why those two should function the same, so when Luigi "disabled" it, he practically "undocumented" it, and you see the consequences - no one knows about it, Luigi re-wrote the history, so to speak.

If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Please?

[Gatt]

"In the arcade" means exactly that ... IN THE ARCADE (3 words can't be THAT confusing to you).

There is no document that I can find that indicates that the 3rd button was ever actually used, including being wired at the PCB level. It is not in any pinout, schematic, photograph nor manual for this game. If you can produce such a document, I am happy to retract that statement, but all of my sources show the same thing.

If you can be more specific in relation to this: - "Button" as a 'plastic thing on a control panel' did not exist, but did it exist on a PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?

MAME is THE document you want to be relying on here, that or the actual PCB, which is also why those two should function the same, so when Luigi "disabled" it, he practically "undocumented" it, and you see the consequences - no one knows about it, Luigi re-wrote the history, so to speak.

If you can't be bothered to find out about Nintendo cabs, their special 100V wiring, the audio circuitry and their lovely monitors, then I can't be bothered to tell you, especially after you have done so much to try to tell me that I am the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Please?

It was a design decision made by the original developers for reasons unknown to us,  and will probably remain unknown.  The purpose of mame is to document arcade machines.  This is a clear edge case,  the developers clearly did not intend it's use,  and were it not for mame,  none of us would know it existed.  It wasn't part of the arcade experience.  Much the same as Knights of the Old Republic 2 has a vast volume of data on the discs for parts left unfinished,  as does Fallout 2.  These things occur because design didn't work in the end product for whatever reason.

As such,  given Mame's intent to document arcade machines for posterity,  it does not belong in Mame as a functional option.  My understanding is,  the proper outlet for this is Misfitmame,  where the game was altered by modern developers.

So to be honest,  I think your best approach would be to politely approach the Misfitmame team and ask them if they'd consider reimplementing the option.

[abaraba]

It was a design decision made by the original developers for reasons unknown to us,  and will probably remain unknown.  

Unknown, thanks to Luigi?
 
You are being pessimistic. I am hopping we might eventually find out more about it.

Have you tried playing the game with the 3rd button? Once you try it, the game actually appears lacking without it. Without it there is too many random jumps, hoping the opponent would eventually move to where you going to land, but with the 3rd button the game is not really easier, nothing like a hack or cheat, you just have a better control over how far you jump. It simply makes matches shorter, less random and more technical. Try it.

The purpose of mame is to document arcade machines.

This is what everything boils down to. You have to separate "arcade machines/cabinets" from the actual PCBs. What makes a game, "where" is the game, in cabinet or PCB? What do you think is more important for emulation/preservation of the game?
 

This is a clear edge case,  the developers clearly did not intend it's use,  and were it not for mame,  none of us would know it existed.

We do not really know what *developers* intended. It is unknown and will remain unknown, remember? All I know developers made it pretty good, it makes total sense and fits completely in the gameplay with everything else.

It wasn't part of the arcade experience.  

Again, do you think MAME is supposed to emulate some "arcade experience" or actual hardware of actual PCBs? You would like to have "arcade experience" with PC monitor & keyboard? The point is to put the PC in arcade cabinet, Build Your Own Arcade Controls, and then have "arcade experience".

[abaraba]

Because randomly connecting pins on a live PCB is a *great* idea ...  

Ok, I have to admit I base all my conclusions on the fact this functionality was originally in MAME. I assume it was there because it was a part of the original PCB, coded in the game ROMs, and as far as I know how MAME emulates input I also believe there was an actual pin there, but what I do know for sure is that the program did read input for the third button and used it if signal was available.

Whether there is an actual electrical lead from some chip leg all the way to the connector is still the question, but I certainly hope some MAME developer did not hack all that just for fun to be there to start with, and so that this functionality can indeed be found, and used somehow, on the actual PCB.

[wweumina]

 If programming were as easy as you say, then this entire forum would have long since put the needed stuff into mame.   The rates for programming saleries would drop by 80%, and much more.

 Its easy for you, because you have a brain that works and thinks a certain way.  And because of that, for you... it seems like everyone should find it exactly as easy as you do.  You simply cant see the logic in it, because you dont know what its like to have Mush inside your head.  Your mind is like Arnorld Schwarzenegger lifting up a tree.. and not understanding why everyone cant lift up a tree.  Its Easy Man!  Watch... Grunt.
 

Programming can be learnt,  it just might take some people longer than others.  You might ask the relevance of this, but alot of this will come down to time.  I'm a programmer and I can tell you exactly how long I have spent helping out with MAME.  None.  I have other projects and a life both of which get in the way.  No one is getting paid for MAME so ultimately it will all come down to how long people want to spend on it.  A change you want might take someone 20 minutes, it might take you 5 years.  If you want it badly enough, you'll spend the 5 years.  If they want it badly enough, they'll spend the 20 minutes.  I don't think you have the right to criticize the people who won't spend 20 minutes doing what you want.  Feel free to suggest, but I think the ciriticsm is going too far.

[nipsmg]

Wow this thread turned crazy.

I feel I need to toss in my $0.02 sense in.

I agree with Xiaou2's point that if MAME is truly documenting the hardware, that support for that 3rd button should be included in one way or another.  The think that Xiaou2 doesn't realize is that the support for the 3rd button IS included. 

The 3rd button is coded into the game's software in the first place.  Now, the original PCB (according to many people) didn't specifically expose the 3rd button (i.e., it was not connected to the wiring harness in any way).  Although there was a 3rd button in the game, getting to it would have involved hacking a 3rd button by adding a wire to the stock harness and jumping whatever pin exposed the 3rd button over to the connector for the harness.

So, in exactly the same was as the hardware didn't expose it, the MAME team removed the exposed interface for button 3.  Now, if you really want to expose button 3, you essentially have to put in your own hack (or patch) to enable it.  MAME emulates the hardware MORE ACCURATELY by removing the interface to the 3rd button actually.  The control interfaces relate DIRECTLY to the hardware and also should be implemented accurately.

Someone can easily create a patch using code prior to u3 and allow people to "hack" in that functionality, just like there are plenty of other patches for that purpose.

What I don't agree with Xiaou2 about is how "easy" it would be to change text color for an unsupported control interface or any of the other features that he touted as "easy to implement".  As Xiaou2 fully admits he's not a developer, he has NO CONCEPT of the complexity of software in general, nevermind something as complex as MAME.  Something as "easy" as changing the text color would involve numerous changes such as:  Creating some designation in the core mame code to support "unsupported" controls, changing the menu code to be able to query for that identifier and display it differently, change whatever base code defines what controls types can be used and changing that, and I'm sure tons more.  It's a lot of code that DOESN'T GO TO HELPING ACCURATELY DOCUMENT THE ORIGINAL HARDWARE.  It's a ton of work.

I also think Haze is being a little disingenuous about how easy it is to "learn programming".  As a professional developer and project manager with over 10 years of development experience, I can say with confidence that learning programming is NOT that easy.  And that there's also a big difference between learning how to code, and learning how to code WELL.  It's like saying that anyone that can cut a piece of wood and nail it together is a Carpenter.  It's just not the case. It takes years of experience.

However, I do agree with Haze's assertion that if you want it fixed, you'll have to learn programming, or find someone who knows how to code in order to get it implemented.  Just like if you had the legitimate cabinet and you wanted to expose the button the manufacturer didn't want exposed, you'd have to either wire it up yourself or find someone that knows how to solder electronics to do it.  It's not sufficient to say "I don't know how to solder", and call up the company complaining, it's just not the way to get it done.

[Haze]

I also think Haze is being a little disingenuous about how easy it is to "learn programming".  As a professional developer and project manager with over 10 years of development experience, I can say with confidence that learning programming is NOT that easy.  And that there's also a big difference between learning how to code, and learning how to code WELL.  It's like saying that anyone that can cut a piece of wood and nail it together is a Carpenter.  It's just not the case. It takes years of experience.

However, I do agree with Haze's assertion that if you want it fixed, you'll have to learn programming, or find someone who knows how to code in order to get it implemented.  Just like if you had the legitimate cabinet and you wanted to expose the button the manufacturer didn't want exposed, you'd have to either wire it up yourself or find someone that knows how to solder electronics to do it.  It's not sufficient to say "I don't know how to solder", and call up the company complaining, it's just not the way to get it done.

For commercial programs and products, yeah, it can be tricky, there is a lot more to learn.

For MAME, the skills needed are a more specific subset (although I think a fair number of Aaron's recent changes have increased the learning curve somewhat, the C++ stuff isn't as immediately understandable as the plain C code for beginners)

Actual emulation (of systems) is pure logic, and understanding of the original game code, and what a piece of hardware can do within reason; for the most part it's identifying addresses and bits and coming to reasonable conclusions about what they do.  Tracing things from original schematics / reverse engineering protection devices are different skills however, a protection device black box simulation can be pretty complex, and schematic reading generally requires an understanding of electronics rather than just logic.

But yes, there is a significant amount of work involved in adding the features X2 is requesting, and an overhaul of the input system in general.  Remember that every single driver in MAME has some form of input port definition, which right now includes details of how the game reads the inputs, as well as what they actually are, and in some cases flags to indicate cabinet behavior (4-way etc.)

For a complete overhaul every single case in MAME would have to be split into at least 2 different structures to allow a cleaner separation between the actual bits read as inputs as read by the game, and the actual devices / cabinet.  This is non-trivial and further increases the complexity of the codebase.  Even 'simple' things as suggested aren't so simple, if you observe carefully MAME makes no use of coloured text right now, I doubt there is even support for it.  The UI code is basically Aaron's territory, and input code is basically Derek's these days, and to achieve anything they would have to work together which is something I'm not seeing a great deal of as of late.

MAME in many cases is an easy project to contribute towards, and yes, readding things like the 3rd button is a fairly trivial source mod, it would be a push to say you even need programming skills for it as most of the 'code' you'd have to change is a bunch of mame structures / macros which don't really resemble code at all (they exist for the purpose of clearer documentation)  From that point of view MAME might be considered a strange project, because such extensive use of preproccesor MACROs is usually heavily discouraged, but in the case of MAME it works well, and aids readability no end.

There is no point in bugging the devs about such things, because for the most part they just want to get things running, the rest can be taken care of later, the actual system emulation is the interesting, and important part, and there is still plenty of that to do (albeit with sadly few devs to do it)

I've worked on big projects, console-based projects, windows-based projects as well as other emulation projects, and MAME is by far the easiest of the bunch to work with and learn (or at least was, but I still think it is significantly easier than many others)

[FrizzleFried]

RosieMonster says...

"IN BEFORE THE LOCK!"

[abaraba]

I agree with Xiaou2's point that if MAME is truly documenting the hardware, that support for that 3rd button should be included in one way or another. 

documenting - support - included; It's interesting that we all kind of agree "what" needs to be done, yet there is disagreement on "how" it should be done and what exactly it applies to.

The think that Xiaou2 doesn't realize is that the support for the 3rd button IS included. 

No, not any more.

MAME devs had to do nothing about it in particular to include or support it, it comes within the game itself, and game ROMs are not part of MAME that only provides "drivers", emulation layer for "hardware" part, and together with game ROMs, the "software" part, we get complete virtual PCB.

So, what MAME should support/document is Inputs and Outputs of the PCB and emulate it in whichever internal way, where the point is for each and every input to produce the output as what the actual PCB would.

Now, to fully and properly DOCUMENT a PCB via emulation, the driver must INCLUDE all the Inputs/Outputs present on the actual PCB, it also must SUPPORT those virtual pins can be virtually wired or "mapped" in control panel, just like all the other I/O (test, service, dip switches), otherwise it's simply not documented.

Yes, that control panel in MAME, where you set "game default keys", that is supposed to be a document describing PCB connector pin-out, so once Luigi removed "support" for those pins, he undocumented the PCB I/O in favor of documenting the harness.


Do you see the problem?

We should be able to look at MAME input control panel and know all about every pin and I/O on the PCB of any given supported game, but now we have documentation before and after Luigi. First we learn there was available 3rd button input and we could virtually wire it, then Luigi came, however he is not even talking about the PCB anymore, but about the loom and cabinet wiring, about operators manual!!

After Luigi's patch there is not even any trace left of this functionality ever existed. It is NOT documented/included/supported by MAME, not any more. Yes, it will always exist embedded in game ROMs, but no one will know about it, which is in contrast to 'preserving' and 'documenting'.


Haze said he is familiar with MAME input, I think, so perhaps he can confirm whether this 3rd button could have been supported in older MAME without it actually being accessible and *legitimate I/O on the actual PCB to start with.

*legitimate enough to be documented, just as dip switches (often with unknown functionality) and everything else is, like service and test buttons that no one goes on to disable even though they are not implemented on many boards.

[Xiaou2]

The difference between a dual shock analog stick and robotron's dual joysticks is NOTHING like the difference between a Beetle and an F1 car.

 While it is a bit of an exaggeration, its still a good analogy.

but as far as the controllers are concerned this is virtually no difference, and it could easily be argued that the analog stick, due to only requiring smaller movements (the deadzone isn't that big, and it's a smaller device) will give you far tighter and more accurate control anyway.

 You see, this is where software people get things all wrong.  Do you know what a Lever is?   The original stick isnt like a see-saw.  Its got a leveraged advantage of like 2 to 1.  So, the bottom of the stick moves twice as far as the top.  The switches themselves are tweaked to a hair trigger.

 The leaf switches have like a Millimeter clearance between contacts, and the Joystick actuator which presses the switches, is actually Touching all the switches. Meaning, that with about a single MM of travel, you are changing direction.

 NOW...

 An Analog stick is not leverage the same way.  Analogs need a wider range of motion to provide much more resolution.  Because of this, you have about 5 times as much travel to the furthest extents.  Then you take away a dead-zone for poor accuracy, and that leaves you even more problems.  Then you add in the fact that an analog has a dual spring system that puts major tension in the middle, & little tension on the middle to outside edge... and that compounds things even more.
(much more apparent in a game like Sinistar, where even the tiniest move can make you go warp speed, & or the wrong vector)

 A Wico 8leaf has a rubber center ring, and its a central pivot. The center is easiest to move within (low to no resistance at all), with the outer edges being a touch more spring to it.  Yet because its center pivoted, the negative effects of control loss (reaction times/speeds ) & fatigue thru resistance, are almost gone in totality.

 You see, for every time you have to move from left to right, the wico will beat your stick by about 3mm in each direction, for 6mm travel total loss in efficeincy.  And thats in ONE "juke" move.  Then, if your analog stick is like most, with a squared guide edge... every time your stick gets deep into a corner, you will lose even more distance and time.  The wicos have a round edge, and can glide effortlessly in circular directions without any physical corner-jolt, nor the extra distance the stick travels to get into that corner (about 1.5 to 2 mm).

 Yes, an analog can be set with a low deadzone... and if you could somehow play without going to the extreme edges of the ministick (nearly impossible due to the heat of battle, and the lack of resistance to properly hold you away from the edge), you might be a little better off... but even then, you still wont beat the 1mm wico activation gap... and you wont beat the corner losses.

 As such, in a game like Robotron, with a mini analog, you will effectively be lapped by the F1 car about 100 times in a single level.  That is how much loss you will have in extra distances, frictional spring resistances, and corner friction+distance losses.

 That's what I find.  I'd actually say the dualshock was a better controller than the antiquated original design.

 Its a good think programmers stick to programming, and not building cars or at best.. joysticks.   You really dont understand a single thing about simple mechanics, physics, leverage..etc.   Study up, cause you just got "Schooled" Hardcore by a self admitted dummy.

Also, take into account things like height, on a real Robotron cabinet it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to play because I'm too tall

 My buddy, who got over level 35, is about 6'3.  He played along on the Original standup game, for several hours at a time without problems or complaints.

The bottleneck of Robotron ability is not in the controls, but in your reactions, and ability to plan where you want to go / shoot.

 Its more than just planning.  You have to be able to change plans fast, because things get out of hand very quickly.  Especially when you have a zillion bouncing balls flying all over the place, or being pommeled with ememy fire from multiple directions + nearly getting run over by flying and walking enemy.  Basically, you need to be able to Juke and change direction at close-shave pixel miss speeds. And if your controller reaction is too slow, that pixel wont miss.. it will hit.. and you will lose a life.  I cant count how many times my character was 1 pixel away from death.. on even a single level... let alone in a full game.

  Using real controls, even if I could use them perfectly would not change that.  I've never played the game with a dualshock and thought I died *because the controls sucked*.  Every time I died it's because I made the wrong decision.

 There is partial truth to this, but that is because you are an extreme beginner.  
When you get good enough with correct strategy, then it comes down to precision and lighting fast jukes/escapes.  All of which cant be preformed on a mini analog. There simply is way too much travel and resistance for that.

edit...

 And finally,

 Age does not change PHYSICS.  Once you realize that, you can realize that there is no such thing as antiquated mechanics.  It either works better or worse based on mathmatics & physics.  As such, you cant apply your Childish attitude of "Because its not from my Generation, it must Suck"  card.  Quite simply put, this isnt Opinion. Its pure undisputed undeniable Fact.

[Xiaou2]

And I repeat again, the color idea was just an idea.  I dont think the button should be a part of the main menu.  It should be hacked into the cheat system in some form... or on its own sub-category..etc.

The stereo option, could also be part of a built-in cheat switch option.

[Haze]

An Analog stick is not leverage the same way.  Analogs need a wider range of motion to provide much more resolution.  Because of this, you have about 5 times as much travel to the furthest extents.  Then you take away a dead-zone for poor accuracy, and that leaves you even more problems.  Then you add in the fact that an analog has a dual spring system that puts major tension in the middle, & little tension on the middle to outside edge... and that compounds things even more.
(much more apparent in a game like Sinistar, where even the tiniest move can make you go warp speed, & or the wrong vector)

you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.

[Siris]

This thread has gone in so many different directions it's insane!

It's gone from MAME doesn't accurately represent the PCB to difficulties of drawing and programming to martial arts and the proper joystick for certain games.

So let's break it down the common thing throughout all this has been MAME.

abaraba: Besides starting off by insulting the MAME team for their decision to remove the JUMP button from Yiear (which never existed beyond development) you have persistently nagged,  bitched, and whined about it even trying to conduct a poll by from my count the majority are against you. You have been told if you feel your argument is justified simply submit the fix with your evidence validating why it's appropriate. This is not the place for such rants!

Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

Both of you seem to fail to understand that MAME is not a PAID project it is programmed by people for fun and enjoyment! No one is going to listen to people who ---smurfette--- at them for doing something they enjoy if anything it will make them stop doing it!

If you believe so hard core then buy the original game and show it off to your friends and explain every detail to them!
 You can set up an original cab of any game and set the supposed perfectly emulated game on MAME in a CAB next to it and I will GUARANTEE they will NOT behave the same that's emulation!

Deal with it, Submit your fixes, try and contribute in a non harsh way, or please STFU!

[eds1275]

fail to understand that MAME is not a PAID project it is programmed by people for fun and enjoyment! No one is going to listen to people who ---smurfette--- at them for doing something they enjoy if anything it will make them stop doing it!

Deal with it, Submit your fixes, try and contribute in a non harsh way, or please STFU!

Hey, don't make sense... that's not what we do here. 

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

 No.

 Im saying that the gameplay was designed and balanced with these sticks.  If they had used other less sensitive controllers... they would have had to reduce the games difficulty by half of its current intensity.  (Which is pretty much how all games made today are... Easy, boring, Snorefests, which take no skill to make progress in)

 However, if they had used a typical happs comp... the square restriction would have caused carnage to the sticks.  They wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks in an arcade setting.

you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.

 I really cant believe how much of a lack of logic you have.

 If you have one guy run 50 meters to the left, then 50 to the right... He wont be able to beat the guy who runs 10 meters to the left, and 10 to the right.

 If you glue a stick to your analog, and tilt it as far as it goes in each direction... then note the distance between the angles, you will see exactly how far you have to move relative to a wico.  The Wico angles will be 1/5th or less the distance.

 Monster Cables have Zero benefit at all for the signal that they carry.  However, there IS a HUGE Mechanical advantage that can easily be measured and felt, with wico leafs.  This isnt some small difference, its a Huge one.

 A simple experiment can be done. Write a test program that measures the time it takes to move from left to right for exactly 60 seconds.  Anyone with a wico leaf hooked up will beat your time by more than half.

 For one, the thumb is a clumsy slow digit.  Moving laterally back and forth accurately and fast, in the air alone, is horrible.  (Try brushing your teeth with the movement of your thumb, but not moving the arm/wrist)   Then, take your fist in shake it laterally as fast as possible.  Its a piece of cake.  Its accurate, its fast, its no fatiguing.  Its called Physics.

 The rest boils down to more resistance (friction), longer distance to travel, and all the other things mentioned.

 If your too simple minded to understand, and you dont believe me, ask some highly paid egg head engineers.  They will give it to you straight up. 

 And, who do you think designs these controllers?  Some idiot with a block of wood and a carving knife?!  These are highly precise and severely complex things that only specialist can handle.  Especially considering that these things had to be built to withstand major abuses and extreme wear.

 This is the very simplest of physics.  Even grade schoolers should be able to understand this stuff.

[RayB]

(FWIW, he's right about Robotron. I have it on Xbox and I also play it on my MAME cabinet with ball-top Wico leaf joysticks. There's no comparison. I do horribly with the Xbox 360 dual analog sticks. There's just too much "throw" for the speed of direction reversing that game requires).

[abaraba]

abaraba: Besides starting off by insulting the MAME team for their decision to remove the JUMP button from Yiear (which never existed beyond development) you have persistently nagged,  bitched, and whined about it even trying to conduct a poll by from my count the majority are against you. You have been told if you feel your argument is justified simply submit the fix with your evidence validating why it's appropriate. This is not the place for such rants!

Xiaou2:
- "Weather or not the button is mentioned in the documents does not matter.  Mame Should document the hardware the same way it exists in reality."


CheffoJeffo:
- "I disagree, unless they removed the functionality of the buttons from within the code, which would be a total PITA."


TOK:
- "If the 3rd button support existed in the original ROM's, it should be left alone."


Grasshopper:
- "It makes no sense to disable the third button if the hardware (and software) supports it."


Haze:
- "Personally, I disagree and don't think the patch should have been applied, just the button unmapped by default.."



That's everyone who actually made a comment about it. I'm telling you again, you are the only one who supports 'any changes', blindly, without an actual opinion of your own.



Were dip switches, test and service buttons also part of "arcade experience"? Perhaps they should disable them too since their interface was not exposed on a control panel?

C'mon, no mater how subtle, at the end it is really simple - do you think MAME should document/emulate PCB I/O, or harness wiring? Pick one!

[abaraba]

Can we not track down anyone with this PCB? Anyone here with some ties to KLOV people? Whom is the best to ask about this then, Konami?

[Siris]

abaraba,

I already showed that the connections for these buttons probably do exist on the board (Read my earlier post) The fact is they didn't use it on the cabinet! So cry all you want but if you can't play the game without that button that just means you suck at the game! EOD

I have NEVER heard anyone cry so loudly about how much they suck at a game that they want to change the rules. It's just freaking SAD!

[abaraba]

Ok, I was wrong to take you seriously. Now, if you would stop blabbering. You said much without really explaining your position. I already know you are angry at me, now can you answer the question without involving myself in your argument, please: - Do you think it is more important MAME should document/emulate PCB I/O, or harness wiring? You think harness, right? That's fine, I was just curios to see what people think about it. Relax now, ok?


I disagree of course, if for nothing else then for inconsistency. Look at this screenshot below, that's what documenting the PCB means, used/unused it's all there, just like on my Green Beret PCB, and ain't it cool to have all that information without the need to actually own one? Who knows, maybe there are some more Easter Eggs programmers left for us behind those unknown/unused switches, but to go into trouble and disable/undocument something that was originally already there is what displeases me the most, the patch is so very unnecessary destructive - based on operators manual, sheesh!

[Erik]

....

And with that post we have now reached the point where more time has been spent reading and debating this topic than has ever been (or will be) spent playing the mediocre-at-best Yie Ar Kung Fu 

[CheffoJeffo]

Most relevant post in the thread.

 

[yotsuya]

Actually, because of this thread I went and played both Yie Ar AND Robotron and got my highest scores ever on both! 

[Haze]

Xiaou2: Your grievances are many fold but basically the same as abaraba in that MAME doesn't represent what you believe it should, then basically saying that if it weren't for the WICO joystick Robotron wouldn't even have been made because the designers couldn't/wouldn't have made it with any other controller. You have this attitude with other games aswell.

 No.

 Im saying that the gameplay was designed and balanced with these sticks.  If they had used other less sensitive controllers... they would have had to reduce the games difficulty by half of its current intensity.  (Which is pretty much how all games made today are... Easy, boring, Snorefests, which take no skill to make progress in)

 However, if they had used a typical happs comp... the square restriction would have caused carnage to the sticks.  They wouldnt have lasted 2 weeks in an arcade setting.

you can say what you want, I'm telling you, at no point when playing Robotron with the controller available to me have I felt that the controller is to blame for any deaths.  The game is reading the inputs at 1/60th of a second at best, less when it slows down due to excessive activity, my actual reactions I would stipulate are slower than that, but once I actually move my thumb / hand the difference is LESS than the 1/60th of a second regardless of controller used.

for this simple reason, it doesn't matter.  The controller I'm most comfortable with is the best controller for the game.  your argument is basically the 'monster cables' argument.  Any benefit you're seeing from the original controls is either mental conditioning, or a placebo effect.  There is no real technical advantage.

 I really cant believe how much of a lack of logic you have.

 If you have one guy run 50 meters to the left, then 50 to the right... He wont be able to beat the guy who runs 10 meters to the left, and 10 to the right.

 If you glue a stick to your analog, and tilt it as far as it goes in each direction... then note the distance between the angles, you will see exactly how far you have to move relative to a wico.  The Wico angles will be 1/5th or less the distance.

 Monster Cables have Zero benefit at all for the signal that they carry.  However, there IS a HUGE Mechanical advantage that can easily be measured and felt, with wico leafs.  This isnt some small difference, its a Huge one.

 A simple experiment can be done. Write a test program that measures the time it takes to move from left to right for exactly 60 seconds.  Anyone with a wico leaf hooked up will beat your time by more than half.

 For one, the thumb is a clumsy slow digit.  Moving laterally back and forth accurately and fast, in the air alone, is horrible.  (Try brushing your teeth with the movement of your thumb, but not moving the arm/wrist)   Then, take your fist in shake it laterally as fast as possible.  Its a piece of cake.  Its accurate, its fast, its no fatiguing.  Its called Physics.

 The rest boils down to more resistance (friction), longer distance to travel, and all the other things mentioned.

 If your too simple minded to understand, and you dont believe me, ask some highly paid egg head engineers.  They will give it to you straight up.  

 And, who do you think designs these controllers?  Some idiot with a block of wood and a carving knife?!  These are highly precise and severely complex things that only specialist can handle.  Especially considering that these things had to be built to withstand major abuses and extreme wear.

 This is the very simplest of physics.  Even grade schoolers should be able to understand this stuff.

I disagree with you entirely, I'm saying the actual difference presented is marginal, the bottleneck of playing the game IS NOT IN THE CONTROLLER, even if you can prove by some method of physics that one is 'better' than the other.

For _playing_ the game IT ISN'T

I'll restate, I've NEVER, not even once died when playing robotron due to a failure or limitation of the controller I'm using.

That is the absolute and only proof you need that giving me a 'better' controller (as you define it) would make absolutely no difference to my ability to play the game, and therefore to me, due to the added difficult in using your so called 'better' controller, it is not a better controller at all.  Any kind of mechanical advantage makes absolutely no difference when the bottleneck of playing the game is not in the mechanics.

No amount of physics and 'proof' can change these very, very simple facts.

You seem highly offended that I prefer playing it with a dualshock, and I do, I'm better at it that way, I'll always be better at it that way.  To me, that's how it was meant to be played and is the only way I can fully enjoy the game.  I wish they'd put them in the cabs back then instead.

You can't lecture me on how some other controller is better, when the controller I'm using has never been the problem in the first place, because I will just laugh at you, like I like at people who try to sell me things I don't need by claiming that they're better, when really, they're just more expensive / less practical for me / I won't need half the features.  We are not talking 50 meters vs 10 meters, we're talking tiny distances vs. other tiny distances, which relative to everything else make no difference to me playing the game.  If I tell you to run 0.000001cm that way, and some other guy to run 0.000200cm the other way, you're not going to notice even if one is 200 times further.

Maybe you don't like me stating this, because it clearly shows that the entire argument IS subjective.  You prefer real sticks and find they're better, I prefer the analog sticks and find they're better.  This conflict of opinion seems to break you?  In terms of playing the games, that's the reality of the situation, different people will find different things better. I prefer to use my thumbs, a twitch of my thumb is an easier and more precise movement than moving my whole hands.  You are not me, you cannot tell me what is best for me.

Just admit it's subjective and be done with it.

[Xiaou2]

But you are wrong.

 Its not fractional as in "0.000200cm"

Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.

[Rick]

Nobody can dispute this!

This statement is absolutely wrong.  I challenge you to tell me why.

[abaraba]

No one cares, I get it, but there is couple of completely unrelated discussions going on here, and no one is even talking to me anymore, so what in the world are you people talking about, what are you doing here, really? Hahahahaaa!

yotsuya,
Did you at least play Yie Ar with the 3rd button so you can tell me what you think about it?


Peab0dy,
Mediocre? Uh, uh, uh-huh, uh.

Do you care how these games are emulated/documented/preserved?

[Haze]

But you are wrong.

 Its not fractional as in "0.000200cm"

Its about a FULL CENTIMETER OF DIFFERENCE!!! ,if not a little more.
In the gameing world, a full centemeter of play is a huge problem on fast moving games!

 If your brake pedal for your car required twice the distance to activate... then if some little kid suddenly bolted right in front of you... you wouldnt be able to stop in the same time as if your brakes had 1/2 that travel.  Nobody can dispute this!  Its not Subjective, its simple Fact.

 And if you tried to replace your cars steering wheel with a mini-analog, youd bang up your car to hell trying to park it.  It simply does not have the correct mechanical resistances and resolution of a proper wheel.  There is again, no subjectivity.  Its plain physics & facts.

 The thing is, you are deluded to the point where you are probably completely unaware of how you are getting killed.   As with poor control, you are going to move and react too slow... and it will appear that it was in fact your fault.  When instead, the proper control may have gotten you out of the way of something just in time.

 There is no denying physics, even with your so called handicap.  Which plainly is a bunch of bunk & excuses.

Far from it, I think you seriously underestimate how sensitive most analog controls are.  They're not even as big, which means I don't even need to move them as far from one extreme to the other, not to mention they're a lot more comfortable than annoying sticks.

And you've still failed to answer the simple question, HOW is an alternate controller going to improve my ability to play the game when I'VE NEVER DIED BECAUSE OF THE CONTROLLER.

and don't come up with bull answers like 'but you have' because I assure you, absolutely, and without any doubt, that I haven't, it's always been due to a poor decision.

The controller I'm using is perfectly 100% fine for my use of the game.

If it wasn't subjective then I'd simply be sat here agreeing with you and saying 'yes, you're right, I can do far better with a real controller' but, I can't.

It's laughable that you continue to tell me that how I could play the game better, when you're not even me.  I'm not telling you that YOU should use a Dual Shock to get better scores, if it doesn't suit you as well, it doesn't suit you as well.  You're the one being pig ignorant and saying that it's only possible to play the game properly with the original sticks, and that I'm wrong for not doing that.

Again this whole thing is just reflective of your general troll-like attitude, everything has to be your way, or not at all.  You have to be right, you can't accept that others have different preferences, or different opinions.  Things need to work the way you want them to, or your bitching, moaning and demand people change them when for a majority of people, things are fine as they are.  Simply having a preference for controls on Robotron has led to you calling me 'simple' 'deluded', a liar and a whole bunch of other insults just because I prefer a control method you don't, I think that says a lot about your character.

Again this is why nobody will take you seriously, and nobody will listen to you because you can't help but insult people if they don't bow to your demands.  You can't even accept that people HAVE a different opinion on matters even if they're not trying to force you to have the same opinion.  Instead you just insult them and attempt to ridicule them because their preference differs.  You are completely intolerant and bigoted as far as well.. anything.. is concerned.

[Jack Burton]

You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.  Any player who entered a tournament using one would be considered a non-threat, and often were ridiculed behind their back.

This last year a pad player by the name of Snake Eyes won the national SF2 championship. 

I haven't read all the last postings about controllers vs. the game, but long experience in competitive gaming has told me that people can get good on things you would never have thought possible.  I've seen players online do things in SF on a keyboard that I have trouble doing on the best joysticks you can buy. 

Just throwing in my 2 cents. 

[Haze]

You know, for a long time anybody who played Street Fighter would have argued that the game was virtually unplayable on the competitive level with a D-pad.  Any player who entered a tournament using one would be considered a non-threat, and often were ridiculed behind their back.

This last year a pad player by the name of Snake Eyes won the national SF2 championship.  

I haven't read all the last postings about controllers vs. the game, but long experience in competitive gaming has told me that people can get good on things you would never have thought possible.  I've seen players online do things in SF on a keyboard that I have trouble doing on the best joysticks you can buy.  

Just throwing in my 2 cents.  

Exactly my point.  It's down to the player which control method they prefer, which suits them best, which they are most comfortable with, and as as a result allows them to play the game better.  It's not physics, it's preference.