No yoke from Ram Controls

[CheffoJeffo]

Not lately ... 

Sorry to hear that.  Thread title changed in your honor.

 

[RayB]

The idea of building it yourself sounds nice, but then Dave would end up spending even more time in "tech support" for people having issues with assembly. I don't think it would work out.

[Havok]

'Coz every knows how fast *I* am to respond ...   

That's what she said?

Nope - that's what *he* said...

[LeedsFan]

BUT, most often buyers select only the cheapest options OR the vendor wants a single tracking source like UPS (who totally suck on the buyer side for international shipments).

Why do UPS suck for international shipments? I would have thought a big company like UPS with a single tracking source would be the obvious way to go. It may be more expensive but that's the route I'd choose to go. Why do you say this Cheffo?

[CheffoJeffo]

Because they charge brokerage fees that are many times higher than anybody else ... and won't deliver your package unless you agree to pay them.

I've had a $10 item come in by UPS, upon which I get charged $2 in taxes and duties and had to pay UPS $30, ON TOP OF the actual cost of shipping (which was around $9). Same thing shipped by USPS would have cost me $25 less.

Google it ... many class action lawsuits and many complaints.

[LeedsFan]

Because they charge brokerage fees that are many times higher than anybody else ... and won't deliver your package unless you agree to pay them.

I've had a $10 item come in by UPS, upon which I get charged $2 in taxes and duties and had to pay UPS $30, ON TOP OF the actual cost of shipping (which was around $9). Same thing shipped by USPS would have cost me $25 less.

Google it ... many class action lawsuits and many complaints.

What's the $30 charge for? I can understand having to pay duties/taxes because it all depends on what item you have shipped... but surely the shipping cost should include any handling fees?

EDIT:    I did just Google it Cheffo and I found one post on a forum....

"In the UK the brokerage fee is £11, it is worth every penny. If you think what you are getting for that, all paperwork filled in before the plane lands and they are paying the VAT on your behalf.

The logistics of filling in the paper work yourself whilst still using UPS is mad, if they even allow this. You will need to know loads of details down to what was the number of the plane it came in on and where it landed etc."

That post was from 2006 so the fee may be higher now... maybe £15. Then again I suppose this guy is right. I used to work for a freight forwarder and I know how complicated some of this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- can be.

[meherenow]

Well, good news, my yoke is on the way AND trackable by UPS.

[JustMichael]

Well, good news, my yoke is on the way AND trackable by UPS.

may your box be full of yokee goodness...

[yotsuya]

I told myself I wouldn't order one UNLESS I got a Star Wars cab.

[nexusmtz]

My yoke came today (ordered 1/2/10) and included the USB interface that I ordered in April.

Dave emailed me on Saturday to let me know that I should expect it this week. He then sent a follow-up email with the tracking number last night. It was at my door this morning.

The yoke looks good and the interface was plug and play (Windows 7 x64 sees and calibrates it fine), but I have to make a mount before I can really try it out.

[meherenow]

My yoke came today (ordered 1/2/10) and included the USB interface that I ordered in April.

Dave emailed me on Saturday to let me know that I should expect it this week. He then sent a follow-up email with the tracking number last night. It was at my door this morning.

The yoke looks good and the interface was plug and play (Windows 7 x64 sees and calibrates it fine), but I have to make a mount before I can really try it out.

Ditto, my yoke arrived today, nearly 17 months later, it works a treat with the USB lead on Win 7 x64.

Dave didn't include my promised refund for the USB lead although I will let him off seeing as he posted it UPS (only cost me £18 GBP in import duty (UK) so another plus there)

However I did get a nice surprise with the inclusion of the rather nifty overlay artwork!


So, in eBay style I thought I would offer my ratings....


Item as described                         *****
Communication                             **
Shipping time                               *
Shipping and handling charges        *****


So my saga is at an end, it's just a shame that it basically took what amounts to shaming Dave to get him to give me my goods.

Can't fault the yoke though...

[Havok]

Mine took three years, quit yer whining!

[Rick]

Mine took three years, quit yer whining!

Yoke's on you!

[Havok]

But I have yoke #1 - so there!

 

[atarijaguar]

So by complaining on this forum you were actually able to get your order?

I've e-mailed Dave numerous times but have not heard ANYTHING since April 10, 2010...

My order was placed October 19, 2009.  How is it that people who have ordered after me have already received their orders? Note that this is a US order, not some complex overseas issue with shipping / customs, etc.

So, Dave when will I get my Yoke and USB Interface?  I also ordered a Tempest encoder wheel to replace the one in my tempest machine which got all bent up.

[meherenow]

So by complaining on this forum you were actually able to get your order?

I've e-mailed Dave numerous times but have not heard ANYTHING since April 10, 2010...

My order was placed October 19, 2009.  How is it that people who have ordered after me have already received their orders? Note that this is a US order, not some complex overseas issue with shipping / customs, etc.

So, Dave when will I get my Yoke and USB Interface?  I also ordered a Tempest encoder wheel to replace the one in my tempest machine which got all bent up.

Well I got mine precisely by that method - it took to basically shaming him into getting it together!  Good luck!!

[WareWolF]

You will NOT get a yoke by being nice.  Post a new thread here and at KLOV to keep it near the top so it's visible that Dave is continuing to screw people over on these yokes.

So by complaining on this forum you were actually able to get your order?

I've e-mailed Dave numerous times but have not heard ANYTHING since April 10, 2010...

My order was placed October 19, 2009.  How is it that people who have ordered after me have already received their orders? Note that this is a US order, not some complex overseas issue with shipping / customs, etc.

So, Dave when will I get my Yoke and USB Interface?  I also ordered a Tempest encoder wheel to replace the one in my tempest machine which got all bent up.

[ChadTower]

You know, it's not only yokes that he has "backlogged".  There are tons of other parts that he also can't seem to deliver.  

I'll be very happy if my Major Havoc CP ever shows up.  At this point I thoroughly believe it never will and that he never intended to produce the item for which he gleefully accepted preorders.  It was a complete scam.  The fact that he still has an account here sticks in my craw - known scam artist operating in plain view is bad for forum morale.

[saint]

I've yet to see a single person indicate they were ripped off. I'm not defending his business and don't care to get into a debate on it, but the criteria for a scam artists imho is someone who takes people's money and won't deliver the product or a refund. When people start saying they didn't get their products *and* requested a refund and didn't get one, then the word scam applies. At that point I'll do something different on the forum here...

[ChadTower]

I've yet to see a single person indicate they were ripped off.

Let's test that policy.  Refund request sent.  I paid for the item in July of 2009.  An item advertised in BST on this forum.

[FrizzleFried]

I've yet to see a single person indicate they were ripped off. I'm not defending his business and don't care to get into a debate on it, but the criteria for a scam artists imho is someone who takes people's money and won't deliver the product or a refund. When people start saying they didn't get their products *and* requested a refund and didn't get one, then the word scam applies. At that point I'll do something different on the forum here...

Uh... RIGHT ABOVE YOUR POST Saint...

EDIT: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=162144

Thousands of dollars the guy owes in parts... THOUSANDS... and many have had to resort to Paypal disputes/claims.

If that isn't evidence enough I don't know what is.

[saint]

I've yet to see a single person indicate they were ripped off. I'm not defending his business and don't care to get into a debate on it, but the criteria for a scam artists imho is someone who takes people's money and won't deliver the product or a refund. When people start saying they didn't get their products *and* requested a refund and didn't get one, then the word scam applies. At that point I'll do something different on the forum here...

Uh... RIGHT ABOVE YOUR POST Saint...

EDIT: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=162144

Thousands of dollars the guy owes in parts... THOUSANDS... and many have had to resort to Paypal disputes/claims.

If that isn't evidence enough I don't know what is.

Ripped off means didn't get product and didn't get refund, to me. I concur ordering from Dave is dicey and likely to be a multi-year proposition, and I don't know that I'd order from him unfortunately. I myself asked him if I ordered a yoke when I could expect it, got no answer and didn't order.

However, in that entire 10 page thread, there was one single post of a person saying they were waiting for a refund, and that was 4 days of waiting. No one in that thread said they were refused a refund. That single poster hasn't posted an update indicating if he got his refund or was left high and dry.

What do you guys want me to do? If I ban Dave from the forum that cuts off an avenue of communication, which through some persistence has been several users avenue to finally getting their products.

What do you guys want me to do?

[nick3092]

Being one of the people who had difficulty with Dave, I can tell you from experience he is not very active here. Your best bet is to PM him at KLOV and email him. His replies are spotty at best, but if you follow up frequently using these methods, you'll get an answer eventually.

Also, on a side note, despite me asking Dave like 3 times for a PDF of the yoke manual, he has yet to send me one. If anyone who got one would be kind enough to scan a copy of it and send it to me, I would be most appreciative. Thanks!

[FrizzleFried]

What do you guys want me to do?

At the very least he should be banned from the For Sale/Trade forum and should be banned from announcing ANY of his wares here in the general forum.   I smelled that duck YEARS ago and called it... and was called every name in the book...  I hate being right sometimes.


EDIT: BTW...

Paid $1500 on Nov 7th for a large quantity of 6821, 68B21, and 6532 chips.

Edit: 12/19: Escalated to a PP Claim today before the 45 day window closes.

Paypal refunded money for MC control panel.

(our very own Mr. Do! even!)

Paypal dispute opened - I am happy to buy the items once they are ready to ship, in the meantime I have to do this

I decided to just file a Paypal claim before the 45 day window was closed-- ended up getting a refund on two orders of chips totaling $1010.

(clay cowgill)

...etc...etc...etc...

...you may wanna go re-read that thread again.  I guess you don't consider having to convince Paypal to refund your dough as "Dave refusing to refund"?  From my point of view... if you have to dispute a Paypal charge and still get no response... requiring you to file a CLAIM... I call that "refusing to refund"...

[saint]

What do you guys want me to do?

At the very least he should be banned from the For Sale/Trade forum and should be banned from announcing ANY of his wares here in the general forum.   I smelled that duck YEARS ago and called it... and was called every name in the book...  I hate being right sometimes.


EDIT: BTW...

Paid $1500 on Nov 7th for a large quantity of 6821, 68B21, and 6532 chips.

Edit: 12/19: Escalated to a PP Claim today before the 45 day window closes.

...you may wanna go re-read that thread again.

I did. Read every post. We may be splitting hairs here, if they file a paypal claim and get their money back, that's a refund to me. Not a one said they asked for a refund, were denied, and so had to resort to Paypal as a last resort. Perhaps my definition is too narrow...

I think Dave's a poor businessman. It's not clear to me he's a scam artist. I've never hesitated to nuke a scam artist. I think leaving communication channels open for a poor businessman is better for those trying to get their products or money than cutting him off altogether. Am I wrong?  I'd like to hear what people who've done business with him have to say.  (I like hearing from you too you big lug, but you don't have any money invested as far as I know... Neither do I.)

[FrizzleFried]

Your sand box...

[saint]

Your sand box...

Meh, I'll go with the consensus... See what a few more people have to say.

[ChadTower]

saint, do you honestly see an involuntary refund, facilitated by Paypal, as good enough to continue doing business here?  

I agree with Frizz that he should be banned from offering any new sales on this forum until he has made good on every sale he made via this forum.  That should include either all merchandise delivered, or all refunds made of his own free will, or whatever combination gets to 100% complete.  

The way I see it I have been ripped off.  The way you see it I will never be ripped off because there is always a chance he might deliver the item.  It gives the guy an open ended loophole to deliver nothing - which is exactly what he delivers until coerced.

[saint]

saint, do you honestly see an involuntary refund, facilitated by Paypal, as good enough to continue doing business here?  

I agree with Frizz that he should be banned from offering any new sales on this forum until he has made good on every sale he made via this forum.  That should include either all merchandise delivered, or all refunds made of his own free will, or whatever combination gets to 100% complete.  

The way I see it I have been ripped off.  The way you see it I will never be ripped off because there is always a chance he might deliver the item.  It gives the guy an open ended loophole to deliver nothing - which is exactly what he delivers until coerced.

Not sure why this is so difficult but I'll throw it out one more time, then either way I yield to the consensus.

People who have opted for a Paypal dispute didn't indicate if they asked for a refund. If he wasn't given a chance to give a refund before they pulled the trigger, he's a poor businessman, but not necessarily a scammer. If they resorted to PayPal because he refused them a refund he's a scammer. Do you not see this as two different scenarios?

No one has said they've asked for a refund and been denied -- am I wrong?

I used to have a donate button on the website here. Donate via PayPal to the expense of running this site. I had one guy donate a few bucks, then the next day disputed it. I had to go through the PayPal dispute process to refund him. He never once actually contacted me. The whole thing was a bit surreal. Did I scam him?

Chad, have you asked for a refund?

Anyway, I will still go with the consensus... To clarify, the question isn't whether he should continue to do business here. Until he squares things with everyone I don't think he should. The question is whether or not he gets banned, which is what you've asked for I think?

--- saint

[MameMaster!]

Personally-- banning him will get his attention I'm sure.  

I've actually spoken with Dave for an interview I did that appeared in the last issue of GameRoom.

I didn't write about it in the article but I did ask him about the delays. At the time I tried to impress upon him how distressing it is to pay so much money for this stuff and then a total silence when trying to get the product shipped.

Ultimately-- I agree with Saint. He's legit....just not good at the business aspect of what he perceives as a hobby for him in selling these parts.

But, that doesn't excuse sloppy sales. He does make amazing products. My yoke took 4 years (+/-)...and I even had gotten a refund during that time period.
 

[ChadTower]

Chad, have you asked for a refund?

Let's test that policy.  Refund request sent.  I paid for the item in July of 2009.  An item advertised in BST on this forum.

I sent in my request today.

I gave him 18 months.  He told me several times whatever it took to get me to give him more time.  He used the yoke backorders to make me feel bad about bugging him for my order.  He told me he ran into issues with powdercoating.  He told me it was nearly done.  He told me it would be soon.  He told me all the same crap he tells everyone else.  Finally, today, I've had enough with the guy.  I am, as are so many other people, tired of being lied to and strung along.  The only way anyone ever gets their product or their refund from Dave is to call him out publicly.  Well, here we are.

[RobotronNut]

I got my yoke after something like 8 months. I don't think Dave's intention is to take money and deliver nothing. He is obviously passionate about product development and quality, but very poor at business operations. I don't think I'd order from him again, until there is demonstrated improvement in timely delivery, but I agree with Saint that banning him does more harm than good.

[stan2323]

I did not pre-order, order, or buy anything from Dave.  I am not active at KLOV forms so I have not seen any of what has gone on over there.  So my opinion may not carry the same weight as those that had to wait years for a product or refund.

I say banning him would do more to hurt people’s chances to communicate with him.   I would say restrict him to only the main form and do not let him post anything about new products until he has inventory in stock and is shipping.

I would love to buy 1000s of dollars of Dave's stuff but I will not until there is a huge turn around in his business practice or I am in his neighbourhood and I can stop buy and pay him in cash for what I walk out with.

Just my 2 cents.

Stan

[Time Pilot]

Yeah, I dunno. I've been waiting on mine since pre-ordering on April 23, 2007.  It sounds like some people have gotten them and the quality is reported to be quite good.

I've been pinging him and get the usual variety of responses everyone else has.  It is frustrating, but I have not asked for a refund yet.  The most frustrating thing is seeing more recent orders going out before mine.  His last email said my order was mistakenly put in a hold pile. Who knows...

I guess I'm looking at it from the perspective that you would have to be a little loony to take on a project like this, at this level of quality, for this small a market. I think at some level we are lucky he's doing it. I'm not sure someone else would. I don't think his profits from this will be too stellar- which may be why his is spending his time on other efforts.  He may be focusing on keeping the business afloat rather than focusing on a hobby oriented project. Not justifying anything- and I know mostly nothing about Dave's business- just thinking...

It is a bit of money, but I'm not getting too worked up about it. Life is too short and I've had more positives than negatives with this hobby. Also, I'm just going to graft this yoke onto a generic machine- I don't have a sweet SW cab waiting on the final critical component- I can understand how that could be maddening

I would vote for not banning him totally. I'm not sure what good that would really do- he doesn't seem to post much here anyway... I don't think he is malicious or intentionally screwing anyone over...

I do hope I'll get the yoke soon... I do have the perfect little bit of vacation time to get it going... (Ship it Dave!)

just my thoughts... since you asked...  time for some Centipede...
TP

[opt2not]

I haven't ordered from the guy, but IMO:
- Not a scammer, just bad at business and communication.
- Give him a selling-suspension from doing further business until all BYOAC member orders are fulfilled.
- Perhaps submit a complaint to the Better Business Bureau (that'll definitely get his attention).

[gatordad]

I don't think a ban is necessary but I could be wrong..

I have only had 2 experiences with Dave

One selling to him
and the other buying from him

When I sold an item to David his payment was prompt

When I ordered an item from him it took 3 1/2 weeks to receive my items
Not exactly speedy, but not the absurdly long wait times I have read about.

I did not order a yoke but I did have the opportunity to check one out at clmoores house
It's definitely a thing of beauty and better than the original.

That is my experience.

I do think David would benefit from some teenage family or friend helpers.
My son is always looking to make some cash to spend on wii or ps3 games.

Save the money you spend on ups overnight air and do ground instead but decrease the turnaround time to under a week would make most of this go away.

The disappearing acts don't help much either. I think sometimes the lack of communication can be even more frustrating than the actual wait for parts.

Hell, this is a fun hobby to me, but I am speaking from my perspective(my deals with Dave have been small potato's) and I have never laid down thousands in cash for parts, so my opinion would change if I had no communication and no parts in that scenario.

GD

[FrizzleFried]

saint, do you honestly see an involuntary refund, facilitated by Paypal, as good enough to continue doing business here?  

I agree with Frizz that he should be banned from offering any new sales on this forum until he has made good on every sale he made via this forum.  That should include either all merchandise delivered, or all refunds made of his own free will, or whatever combination gets to 100% complete.  

The way I see it I have been ripped off.  The way you see it I will never be ripped off because there is always a chance he might deliver the item.  It gives the guy an open ended loophole to deliver nothing - which is exactly what he delivers until coerced.

Not sure why this is so difficult but I'll throw it out one more time, then either way I yield to the consensus.

People who have opted for a Paypal dispute didn't indicate if they asked for a refund. If he wasn't given a chance to give a refund before they pulled the trigger, he's a poor businessman, but not necessarily a scammer. If they resorted to PayPal because he refused them a refund he's a scammer.

From KLOV:

I'm a little annoyed that Dave has ignored my PMs and emails,[emphasis mine] which were very polite (I never say anything that I wouldn't want to see posted on KLOV ).

I've filed a PayPal claim to get my $265 back, but I hate that it had to go that way.
Reply With Quote

I also had no choice but to file a PP claim to get it in the 45 day window. With no response to my last PM [emphasis mine] and finding info that LL and MC control panels were back to the drawing board. There was no chance I would see these any time soon. I will be happy to buy them when they are actually ready to go out the door as this wasn't supposed to be a presale.

Escalated my order to a PP Claim today before the 45 day window closes.

I'd rather have the chips, but have to do what I need to in order to protect myself. $1500 is a lot of money to my little business to have hanging out in the ether.

(and if you read his prior posts YES...he's tried to contact Dave.)


>QUACK!<

PS: I don't want to see Dave banned.  Just not permitted to sell.  And it would be nice if people would call a duck a duck.  If anyone... ANY ONE else had pulled this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- they'd have been run out out dodge YEARS ago...

...but I said that before... like 2 years ago.

[Malenko]

Whats done on KLOV isnt whats done here, so its not fair to punish him for whats done there. Anyone who gives chad a hard time is ok in my book, I just wont be buying anything from the guy. I dont think banning him is going to solve anything but some sort of warning to potential consumers should suffice. It IS Caveat Emptor as far as I know.

[HaRuMaN]

Perhaps a custom title is in order...

[FrizzleFried]

Whats done on KLOV isnt whats done here, so its not fair to punish him for whats done there. Anyone who gives chad a hard time is ok in my book, I just wont be buying anything from the guy. I dont think banning him is going to solve anything but some sort of warning to potential consumers should suffice. It IS Caveat Emptor as far as I know.

That there is one of the biggest crocks of [self edit: poo-poo] I've read in quite some time... no offense intended.


If (some other) known scammer hits KLOV,  it would be asinine to not take action here.... and as demonstrated by our very own TIME PILOT (above)... the problem isn't just a KLOV problem...