Wells Gardner vs. a High Res. Monitor

[Visitor Q]

In process of a putting together a cabinet and am trying to gather opinions on what monitor would be the best for my setup. I have already spoke to a few people on this but want to get as many opinions as I can on the matter so, yours is important.

If I was just to emulate Mame I would no doubt buy the Wells monitor for my cabinet but that is not the case. I want to be able to run as many system emulators as possible with in this box and am afraid that newer emulated systems like Dreamcast and PSX will not fair well on the Wells.

Help please, this is a big purchase for me and I want to do it right.

Trying to decide between Mameroom and Dream Authentics to purchase from. Mameroom now offers a high res. monitor in there two player where Dream offers a Wells.

I also just built a new PC to run my emulation project which includes a Radeon 4850 Graphics Card so I want to try and put that to use too.

Thanks.

ps. I am new to this forum but will be doing a lot of reading in the next couple days here but in the meantime, I want to toss about some specific questions I had.

[Visitor Q]

Anyone?

[ahofle]

What exactly were your "specific questions"? 
You can run just about any console emulator on an arcade monitor FWIW, at least ones designed for standard res TVs (all the ones you listed).  Personally I prefer multisync arcade monitors which are the best of both worlds.

[Visitor Q]

Multisync arcade monitors, can you name or link me to a few please?

I just want to make sure that I can run newer emualtion at decent res.. Systems like Dreamcast and PSX, I want them to look as good as they can. I am not looking to run high end PC games or anything of that matter but like I said, I want to use something that will support my newer graphics card. Will Wells do that or the one you speak of?

Thanks.

[scotthh]

The wiki lists multisync monitors. If you search for "multisync" or "multi sync", you'd find threads like this one which say good things about Nieman Displays. Here's a very good post you should read.

[Visitor Q]

So you would recommend any of the 3 listed?

Betson Imperial/Kortek KT-2914

Wells-Gardner D9200

Wei-Ya M2929DC-62 / BilLABS BL27CA1K/BL27CA1Q

[miles2912]

We recommend you do some reading and make your decision based on that.  All of the above monitors have been reviewed and tested over many years and all have their pros and cons.   I have a Betson and have no complaints.

[Visitor Q]

Wei-Ya sounds like it supports the highest 1027 X 768 .

I am reading and reading and reading, trust me.

[ahofle]

Since you are using this for PC emulation, you will want to stay away from analog multisyncs unless you want to constantly adjust the screen geometry after each game.  Betson's digital multisync is good, but as of late seems to be suffering from 'horizontal linearity' problems (squishing on the sides of the picture).  I don't think Billabs has their digital multisync available anymore.  From your list I would probably go with a D9400 if it were me.

[Visitor Q]

I am going to call Mameroom now and see what they are using.

He said they use a Makvision arcade CRT monitors, any ideas on this one?

He stated that it was more like an arcade monitor than PC monitor, high res. with no casing.

I would assume this is the one he is refering to...

http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm

[ahofle]

That one doesn't go low enough for native arcade resolutions though.  Seems pretty expensive -- you could spend the same amount for a monitor that does both low and higher resolutions.

[Visitor Q]

What will happen if it does not go low enough?

[ahofle]

Then you have to use stretching/scaling in your emulators.  It would basically be the same as you running MAME on a PC with a high res PC monitor. 

[Visitor Q]

Then you have to use stretching/scaling in your emulators.  It would basically be the same as you running MAME on a PC with a high res PC monitor. 

Hmmmm... I guess I would have to see it because I don't think Mame looks all that bad on my PC now.

Please check your PMs.

[DJ Infinity]

anything but a WG.

[Visitor Q]

anything but a WG.

WG is $hit?

[isucamper]

If I was just to emulate Mame I would no doubt buy the Wells monitor for my cabinet but that is not the case. I want to be able to run as many system emulators as possible with in this box and am afraid that newer emulated systems like Dreamcast and PSX will not fair well on the Wells.

The Wells would run all console emulators just fine.  Up until the current generation of consoles, all game systems were made to run on standard def TVs.  The Wells can run standard def resolutions perfectly.  However, if you wanted to turn on fancy high def upscaling that some of the more sophisticated emulators can do, then you might want a high res monitor to handle that.  The Wells will do the native resolutions just fine though.

DJ, you're always ragging on the Wells, but if I remember correctly, it was because it wouldn't desplay a particular arcade board you had.  If someone is building a PC MAME cabinet, they won't have the problems you ran into, right?  I'd be more interested if someone could comment on the quality of the 9400 (build-wise), which is still kind of up in the air at this point. 

[bent98]

Its a shame Billabs doesnt offer thier quad sync anymore, I have it and love it. You should go with thier tri-sync. Best you can get right now.


You also want to use soft 15khz and make sure you get a videocard that works with all the supported modes. If you arent planning on using cabinet for 3d gaming or front ends like hyperspin you can get a ATI radeon 7000 for like $20

[Visitor Q]

Well here are my two choices.

Wells Gardner D9400 27"
http://www.happ.com/monitors/49520300.htm

27" MakVision High Resolution
http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm

What one is the better all around monitor for Mame to Dreamcast?

Will either take advantage of my current Radeon 4850 Graphics Card and more importantly, will it work with it?

Which is the better choice? What are the advantages and disadvantages to both?

[ahofle]

My vote would be for the D9400, but not for Happ's price:
http://www.xgaming.com/htm/wells-gardner-mame-arcade-cabinet-machine-monitor.shtml

Its a shame Billabs doesnt offer thier quad sync anymore, I have it and love it. You should go with thier tri-sync. Best you can get right now.

I'm pretty sure their tri-sync is analog, making it a poor choice for PC use (but great for real PCBs).  Unfortunately it appears that the D9400 is the only multisync option right now for PC emulation.  I'm starting to wonder how much longer even it will be available. 

[Visitor Q]

Will my current graphics card work with it?

[Ummon]

Its a shame Billabs doesnt offer thier quad sync anymore, I have it and love it.

Pentamode. Betson is a quad.

Well here are my two choices.

Wells Gardner D9400 27"
http://www.happ.com/monitors/49520300.htm

27" MakVision High Resolution
http://www.happcontrols.com/monitors/49271700.htm

What one is the better all around monitor for Mame to Dreamcast?

Will either take advantage of my current Radeon 4850 Graphics Card and more importantly, will it work with it?

Which is the better choice? What are the advantages and disadvantages to both?

I can guarantee you're not reading the wiki, as I just recently put some stuff in the monitor/video section that would tell you a lot, and to do a lot, before asking any of these questions.

[ahofle]

You'd probably be better off just getting an ArcadeVGA video card, unless you want to play around with Soft15khz (thread at the top of the monitor forum).

[Visitor Q]

I was also now told that DA is going to be using a 32 or 33” WS arcade monitor… More to consider…

[billpa]

If you arent planning on using cabinet for 3d gaming or front ends like hyperspin you can get a ATI radeon 7000 for like $20

Hyperspin does not use any hardware acceleration. Onboard video works fine as long as you have a fast enough cpu.

[retrometro]

You'd probably be better off just getting an ArcadeVGA video card, unless you want to play around with Soft15khz (thread at the top of the monitor forum).

soft15khz is nearly a plug and play app.  after rebooting from soft15khz's changes on my ATI x700, all i had to do was set mame to switchres and tweak the display settings on the monitor and I've got nearly all the games in native resolution.

For some of the vertical games, this forum's provided some good modelines.  even out of the box arcadevga doesn't seem to have as many resolutions and the performance outside of mame is not so great.

[JKJudgeX]

Just as a quick, alternative suggestion...

I have an actual arcade machine that i use as a mame box... with the old monitor and everything... there's a lot that can go wrong with them with age... and they have to warm up and stuff.  I know you'll be getting a new one, but...

You said it was a big purchase for you.  For this reason, I would lean towards the high res monitor, because if anything goes wrong, you'll have a piece of hardware with re-applicability... or... if you find that you aren't playing your arcade machine as much as you had thought, you can pop the monitor out and re-task it for another project (like a media-box or a home automation machine, a dumb terminal, or any other various tasks that would be more fitting of a high res monitor instead of an arcade screen)

The high res monitor will satisfy all but the most discriminating of players on your machine, and while some ancient arcade enthusiast such as myself might be able to tell the difference between properly interlaced and resolution graphics in all the various versions of pac-man and street fighter, for the purpose of gameplay, it is all essentially irrelevant.  The monitor will suffice, you'll have a lot more vendors and form factors to choose from, and you might even end up saving money.

Anyway, good luck either way that you go.  If I had it to do over, my machine would have a high res monitor in it.  (I don't really care about the "proper" resolutions... (I find it funny that some people really do... and they get all uptight about which control scheme you use for "arcade authenticity"... like which steering wheel?  Well, there are virtually no two driving setups alike!  So I say use whatever you like, from a wii-mote to a homemade wheel!)

[Visitor Q]

I know what you are saying JKJudgeX. I was over at a friend’s house tonight with my arcade box on his new LCD HD TV. Personally to date I think it is the best my emu's have looked, very bright, even looked good stretched. I currently am running them here at my home on my Sony XBR HD Tube set which is also WS.

To each his own I guess.

[retrometro]

Anyway, good luck either way that you go.  If I had it to do over, my machine would have a high res monitor in it.  (I don't really care about the "proper" resolutions... (I find it funny that some people really do... and they get all

I don't intend on starting a native vs scaled debate but I guess it boils down not just to personal preference but also to what motivation someone has for playing these 25+ year old games.  People go on and on to prefer one over the other and they hopefully find that there's no right answer.

Native vs Scaled resolution comparison


Like when I listen to music from the 70's or 80's...  for me it's 95% enjoying the music and 5% nostalgia.  For retro arcade games, I would say it's 80% gaming and 20% nostalgia.   However for the Atari and C64 games, it's like 40% gaming and 60% nostalgia since a lot of the popular titles were ports or original games from newly created genres.  e.g.  if you're playing Mario Bros. on the C64 instead of the original, you're playing mostly for nostalgia since while it was a good port, it didn't have all the features.

Anyway, I think if it was only about game play, this forum wouldn't even exist.  After all, why not just grab a $10 gamepad or play the games on a kb/mouse in front of your pc/mac's widescreen LCD monitor?  Simple and no hassle.   BTW, try playing Missile Command or Virtua Cop with a mouse!  it's like using your computer except your icons are the baddies on the screen.

Back to this thread...  I chatted w/ VisitorQ and he doesn't really see the diff in native/scaled so it makes complete sense for him to get as high of a resolution monitor as possible.  Although i wonder how large of a 4:3 aspect LCD you can get these days to use instead of a CRT?

[Visitor Q]

I do the see the difference but to me, it is nothing to write home about. It's not like comparing standard TV to HD at least not in my eyes. 

For me playing these games is a toss back to when I was younger, sure I want them to look good but as far as recalling how good they looked when I was 10 to now that I am 30+, I just don't see it.

I am still a current gen player today so it does not matter what scale these are at (for the most part), its not going to change them into HD.

[Blanka]

The biggest problem is that there are still no real good upscaling algoritms. If you do it by hand in Photoshop, you can get very good results. Just have a look at the YouTube movie above (the native resolutions). If upscaling looked like it does in the video (on an LCD these pixels look awesome), no-one could have a problem with the HD LCD's. The fact is that upscaling looks nowhere like that movie. Biggest problem in upscaling is that to maintain brightness, you will need to do some clever overlaying of the tridot-patterns. Now the always darken the image, which is not needed. Have a look at algoritms like cleartype and how they handle anti-aliasing. Arcade pixels should be rendered like that.

[Ummon]

I do the see the difference but to me, it is nothing to write home about. It's not like comparing standard TV to HD at least not in my eyes. 

I suggest you get an HD LCD, then.

The biggest problem is that there are still no real good upscaling algoritms. If you do it by hand in Photoshop, you can get very good results. Just have a look at the YouTube movie above (the native resolutions). If upscaling looked like it does in the video (on an LCD these pixels look awesome), no-one could have a problem with the HD LCD's. The fact is that upscaling looks nowhere like that movie. Biggest problem in upscaling is that to maintain brightness, you will need to do some clever overlaying of the tridot-patterns. Now the always darken the image, which is not needed. Have a look at algoritms like cleartype and how they handle anti-aliasing. Arcade pixels should be rendered like that.

They look like that on my monitor. Of course, different pngs have different dimming factors, and so close up the dimming can be less apparent or look altogether different.