What kind of gas mileage do you get?

[Jdurg]

I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.

[paigeoliver]

If you care about money then why in the world would you ever buy a hybrid? The purchase price and additional maintenance costs swallow the gas savings even at $6 per gallon.

For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.

[HaRuMaN]

I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.

Get a Fit...  I'm rocking the gas mileage, even with driving like a maniac.  There are some people who hypermile their fits, and are getting in the 40's...

[Level42]

Hybrids are subsidized here. But that's easy when a car costs about double the price that you guys pay (taxes, taxes and more taxes.)

[Jouster]

I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

Jouster

[ahofle]

I'm surprised there aren't more motorcycles mentioned here.  When the weather permits, I usually ride that to work.  50-55MPG + 0-60 in 3.5 seconds = yay!!

[shardian]

I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

Jouster

You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.

[patrickl]

I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

Jouster

You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.

Why not? I drove an Audi TT (the high power turbo model) and it got 30mpg. I would generally cruise at 100mph so I wasn't really driving slow.

[Wade]

For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

Not true!  You can buy a brand new economy car with little down or a junker for trade, for < $200/month for 5 years.  That's very comparable to an old, used car's maintenance costs and higher gas costs (if a larger or inefficient vehicle).  If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own.  That doesn't even consider the opportunity cost of breaking down in an old car.  If you make $25, $50, $100/hr, and miss an important meeting or take an unpaid day off of work, etc. then cost of breaking down is extremely significant.

Driving an older car is often a false economy.  You seem to think that's never the case, but more often than not, it is.

Wade

[danny_galaga]

this all depends on what you know about cars. edit: and also if  you know how to treat them. i'm not a mechanic but i'm pretty good with my cars. $2500 got me my VW- 'the master'. had it a bit over two years now. basic problems i fix myself- $25 for a starter on ebay for instance. i blew some money on a mystery problem that i couldnt figure out and nor could the mechanics (was a split fuel line on the low pressure side of the pump). that was expensive relatively speaking- about $400. although now every piece of fuel line has been replaced (",) had a tune up this year- $200. so thats an average of $300 a year above normal wear and tear. how is that more expensive than $200 a month? if you are in tune with your car, you would be very unlucky to be stuck on the side of the road because you will anticipate problems. even with the fuel line problem i had i was still driving around, just that when you got over 80 it would start to suck air into the fuel line and run really roughly...

my previous old car 'the beast' was even easier to maintain (although i admit had poor fuel economy). i fixed everything on that, including rebuilding the engine, which was about $1000 (including rebore and reconditioned head). drove that car for at least ten years. some of the major services for new cars could cost you nearly that, what with timing belts etc...

so if you buy a new economy car, say it cost ten grand. say you havent paid any interest. in five years you can sell it for $2500. youve lost $7500 right there. not to mention that many of the economy cars arent built that well, so  you may be up for repairs anyway. not to mention if you got a loan and paid interest. an older car like mine has bottomed out pricewise. five years from now i could probably sell it for MORE than $2500. in that time maybe ive spent $2500 on it. in the end then ive lost about $2500...


what paige is talking about though (i think) is the total cost of energy involved in building that car rather than fixing an older one...

[paigeoliver]

Wade, the sheer fact that you are discussing a monthly payment as is that was an important number shows me that you really don't have a handle on automotive costs. And for the record, ALL cars need maintenance.

I have been driving about 16 years, 12 of those years I drove sub $2000 clunkers. My TOTAL in repair bills from 1993 to 2007 is LESS than the $2400 you'd make in payments on that hybrid in one year, and that was if you somehow got a $22000 hybrid with $500 down for 5 years down to $200 a month, my loan calculator says that would be $428 a month. Since I am assuming that is impossible I will start talking about a new standard civic instead.

10,000 miles per year on a V8 getting 18 MPG at $3.50 a gallon costs a person $1944 a year.

10,000 miles a year on a standard 2008 Honda civic (29 mpg, which is really pitiful if you ask me) at $3.50 a gallon costs $1206 a year.

So in theory you save yourself $744 a year here, oh wait, how much extra is that full coverage insurance on that car you are financing? Better add in $500 extra a year for that. Now you are saving $244 a year. Ooh, what about property taxes on that brand new car, there goes an amount of money that is going to vary from $0 in some places up to about $900. We will assume your rates are on the lower end and merely eat up that $244.

Wow, now you have broken even.

Wait, there is more, there is about $1200 in sales tax to pay on that car. We will split that over 5 years to be nice. $240 cost per year.

Wait, there is more, to the tune of $600 a year in interest (averaged over 5 years and assuming you have good credit).

Wow, now we are $800 a year in the HOLE on operating expenses, and I haven't even TOUCHED the purchase prices of the vehicles.

Aside from that mercedes I just bought (knowing it needed a repair that would cost nearly a grand), my RECORD for repair costs in one year is only about $700 and those were ALL wear items (tires and exhaust).

I guess we could talk about the purchase prices of the vehicles, although I could line up all my cars from 1993 to 2007 with my purchase prices on the windshield and they would still add up to less than a new civic. Once I account for the money I got back from selling them (and for junking 2 of them) then I didn't spend a whole lot on purchase prices.

For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

Not true!  You can buy a brand new economy car with little down or a junker for trade, for < $200/month for 5 years.  That's very comparable to an old, used car's maintenance costs and higher gas costs (if a larger or inefficient vehicle).  If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own.  That doesn't even consider the opportunity cost of breaking down in an old car.  If you make $25, $50, $100/hr, and miss an important meeting or take an unpaid day off of work, etc. then cost of breaking down is extremely significant.

Driving an older car is often a false economy.  You seem to think that's never the case, but more often than not, it is.

Wade

[Cakemeister]

If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

[shardian]

 Newer cars can leave you stranded with about the same odds as a reliable beater - reliable being the key word.

Me personally, I am a freak and like driving beaters as my commuter. I couldn't imagine paying 10k for a car I simply drive to and from work every day. I also don't mind the occasional break down. It gets me out of work for at least a few hours. 

[danny_galaga]

If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

and actually, chicks dig 'the master' more than if i had an uninteresting, but new car (",)

[Jdurg]

Paige makes a lot of great points, but there are some flaws in the logic.

1.  Gas doesn't cost $3.50 a gallon anymore.     The price of gas isn't a constant rate.  Unlike a car payment, the cost of gas will continuously rise so the gas cost of a gas guzzler will rise as time goes on.  I don't think we'll ever see the price of gas drop over the long term ever.  (My buddy has a Jeep Wrangler and he is considering not driving it anymore because he is going broke every week filling it up with gas).

2.  Insurance depends on the model of your car, not the age.  It costs the exact same amount of money to repair a new car as it does an old car.  What matters most is the driver's gender, driving history, and model of car.  (It will cost you a lot more to insure a Corvette if you're a 26 year old male than if you insured a Honda Civic as a 35 year old female).

3.  With a new car, you're buying from a dealer and there will usually be a warranty period.  With a used car, you're not neccessarily buying it from a dealer and there typically will be very limited to no warranty period.  If your car breaks, you're forced to pay whatever cost the local auto repair shop is demanding.

4.  In terms of downpayments, you'd be kind of crazy to not make a substantial downpayment on anything you buy.  I bought my car back in 2003 after saving up to put a nearly 50% downpayment on the car.  That made the monthly payments a complete joke in terms of cost, and I paid off my car in full a few years later.  Now, the only 'costs' with the car are gas costs each week and standard maintance costs every few months.  Costs due to deterioration from wear and tear shouldn't start coming into place until the car has been paid off if you made a proper downpayment.  With a used car, that 'new parts and less wear and tear' factor won't be there so your maintenance costs may be rising while you're still paying off the car. 


If you know a lot about cars then yeah, you can take care of many of these things on your own and not have to worry about it.  Not everybody is an automechanic, however.  We all don't have the time or ability to fix cars or know what to look for.  You can teach me how to throw a curveball, but it doesn't mean I'll actually be able to do it.  Some people are able to, and some people aren't. 

Finally, car payments are a fixed cost that won't go up and won't go down.  Each month, for the entire time you own the car, those payments will remain the same.  The costs of gas and maintenance, however, are highly variable and can change drastically from month to month.  If you have to suddenly drive quite a bit one month and the price of gas skyrockets like it has been lately, then suddenly your monthly "car costs" can exceed what you can afford.  Also, if you aren't very adept at fixing cars on your own, if you get a car that's a 'clunker' that breaks down every few weeks that can cost you a fortune in terms of time missed from work, repair costs, and other costs associated with not having a car.  I just don't buy the "a user car is just as likely to break down as a brand new car" line.  With statistics, however, I can be swayed.  If you can show me legitimate stats which show that new cars break down as often and as expensively as old cars when driven in the same manner, then I'll believe it.

I also assume that a "new car" won't need repairs done to it for a good 4, maybe 5, years unless you drive in such a manner that you're asking for your car to break.




Oh yeah.  Depending on what I eat for dinner the night before, my gas can get some pretty good mileage on it.   

[shardian]

"New car just as likely to break down as a reliable used car".

There are no statistics, just personal experience of me and family/friends. I have had used cars that have problems, and I have had used cars that never have problems. My current car is a Volvo with almost 300k miles on it. Everything works, and I know it will start and go every time I hop in. The wife drove it before me, and her step dad drove it before her since it was near new. In 300k, it died on the step dad once with a minor issue. The wife had a dead alternator once and happened to be next to an Advance auto. Once on me as I pulled out of the drive way the timing belt broke - which was a surprisingly easy fix.

Before that I had a Geo Tracker that I had up to 215k miles when I traded it in. I had a clutch cable freeze once, and an alternator problem another time. That was it over 6 years.

I also had an "it's just getting broke in at 120k" Toyota Corolla. That thing gave me plenty of problems with overheating, and the engine blew after I had it for a year.

My dad bought a Brand New Ford Ranger, and it routinely had to be worked on throughout the warranty period. The warranty is up now, and it drives like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and is very unreliable.

The thing about new cars is this: they are only new the first day. Once it is 5 years old, it is just as likely to have issues as the 5 year old model I picked up used. The only difference is I paid half as much as you, and am much more statistcially likely to spend less on the car per year in a cost over time ratio.

[paigeoliver]

Insurance matters because no one with two brain cells to rub together has full coverage insurance on a car worth less than 5 or 6 grand. The comprehensive and collision doubles your insurance rates at a bare minimum.

Also, fuel prices are not simply an upward only trend, in real dollars they have been all over the place historically, and they just found some oil that will now be the third largest oil reserve in the world (and it isn't controlled by middle eastern interests) you will see some changes once that starts pumping.

[paigeoliver]

Also, if you are purely shooting for finances here then the gas mileage champs of the past (Geo Metro, Honda CRXFX, and Ford Festiva) win hands down. It is far cheaper to keep repairing and rebuilding them than it is to drive anything recent.

Unfortunately every car ever made that got impressive fuel economy was also a total rust monster.

Also, to comment on an earlier comment. Motorcycle fuel savings is phantom savings, motorcycles only have a fraction of the service mileage in them that cars do (thus that purchase price eats deeply into the fuel savings, it doesn't matter what sort of mileage you get when you are depreciating at 25 cents a mile), and if you are adding it to a stable that already includes a car than you are paying extra insurance and licensing, which also eats into your savings.

[ahofle]

That's one way of looking at it.
My bike is a Honda, was cheap ($6000), insurance is dirt cheap (under a $100 a year since no collision), annual owner tax is around $20, and I didn't buy it solely as a means for gas savings.  I bought it because I enjoy riding.  The gas savings (and having an extra vehicle) is just extra gravy.  The fact remains that when I use it to get to work, I essentially pay half for fuel compared to what even a fuel efficient car owner would pay (probably a quarter as much as the typical giant SUV soccer mom driver).

[danny_galaga]

Paige makes a lot of great points, but there are some flaws in the logic.

1.  Gas doesn't cost $3.50 a gallon anymore.     The price of gas isn't a constant rate.  Unlike a car payment, the cost of gas will continuously rise so the gas cost of a gas guzzler will rise as time goes on.  I don't think we'll ever see the price of gas drop over the long term ever.  (My buddy has a Jeep Wrangler and he is considering not driving it anymore because he is going broke every week filling it up with gas).

how cool is that! the price of fuel doesnt go up for new cars, only old ones! i guess i better trade in the master after all...

oh, and ahofle, its interesting about motorbikes. i remember when it used to cost MORE to insure a bike than a car! the prices sure have come down lately here. a lot fairer now, and good timing since it will encourage more people to ride them to work (which is coincidental since the insurance companies dont really ahve a reason to encourage fuel savings)

[AtomSmasher]

how cool is that! the price of fuel doesnt go up for new cars, only old ones! i guess i better trade in the master after all...

When the older car is a V8 gas guzzler and the new car is extremely economical, then the rising gas prices would more prominently effect the gas guzzler.  It has nothing to do with the age of the car, just it's fuel efficiency.

Personally I prefer a new car for my daily driver, but like old classic cars (1970's or older) for my recreational vehicles.  I know buying a cheap used beater saves quite a bit of money and that everytime I buy a new car, I'm throwing a bit of money away, but for my daily driver I need excellent reliability and prefer the extreme cleanliness of a new car and that I know the car has always been properly maintained (since it's new, it hasn't needed any maintence yet).  In general I'm the only person in my car, and I keep it extremely clean.  My current car now has 10,000 miles on it and the interior still has the new car smell.

Some of you have talked about how your used cars are extremely reliable, but when you first buy a used car, you have no idea if it will be reliable.  When you buy a new car, it's under warranty so it doesn't cost you anything to fix it and if it has too many problems, then you can return it under the lemon laws, or sell it before the warranty is up to make it someone elses problem (which adds to the crapshoot of buying a used car).

[ahofle]

oh, and ahofle, its interesting about motorbikes. i remember when it used to cost MORE to insure a bike than a car! the prices sure have come down lately here. a lot fairer now, and good timing since it will encourage more people to ride them to work (which is coincidental since the insurance companies dont really ahve a reason to encourage fuel savings)

It's probably because we are getting old.   At least around here it really depends on the bike and the age of the rider.  I know if you're a male under 25 and you're getting full coverage on a performance/sport bike, you can expect to pay several times what an old fart like me pays for his car insurance!

[paigeoliver]

Cars (even old ones) just aren't as unreliable as people think they might be. In this era of fuel injection even clunkers don't tend to leave you stranded all that often. I have been driving them forever (come to think of it, even the newest car I ever owned was 5 years old when I bought it), and I have been stranded on the side of the road ONCE. I get stuck with a car that doesn't want to start for some reason an average of maybe once per year, with plenty of periods where I went 2 or 3 years without it happening (combined with a couple times I had it three times in one year, alternator, starter and battery in separate incidents).

The reliability card is simply overplayed in that respect. I haven't been late to work because of car breakdowns in even one time in the last 10 years, actually I can't ever remember being late to work because of an auto breakdown. I was late to work once because of a stolen car (probably could have still got a cab or called a ride to get there on time, but I had to wait for the police to come), and that was the only time I have ever been late to my current job (8 years now).

I respect people who are more honest and just say they want to look fancy or feel good about themselves with a new car, because that is usually the truth, financial and reliability arguments just don't hold up.

[Jdurg]

Honestly, when I bought my Civic I bought it brand new because it was my first car.  My parents NEVER taught me how to drive.  They were afraid that my Diabetes would severly hurt me, even though I knew it wouldn't.  I saved up, took lessons from an external source, and passed the test on my first try even though it was snowing at the time.

I saved up for years, and finally was able to put a big downpayment on a car.  I bought my Civic because I liked the small size, and at the time the gas mileage was great.  Now that I've paid it off, it feels even better.  I fill up my tank about once a week, and I fill it up when I get to half-way empty.  It's probably just out of OCD.   

I WISH I knew more about cars.  Sadly, all I know is that every 5,000 miles I take it back to my Honda dealer and they do a complete inspection.  65,000 miles later, I haven't had any problems and the money I've spent on the "inspections" has been well worth it.

It feels good having the title to my car.  It also helped my credit rating a TON and helped me buy my house.

[patrickl]

If you look at German break down statistics (how often did people need to call road help), a 5 year old car is already around 20 to 30 times more likely to break down. break downs really skyrocket as age goes on.

To keep your car working in proper order an older car just needs more maintenance. That means it costs more money to run and you have to bring it in to the garage and suffer the nuisance of the car functioning poorly often. You'll find out the hard way if you drive that merc for a few years and you run into repairs that will cost a few thousand dollars.

On average a junker is cheaper than driving a new car yes, but the price difference really is not that great. Maybe 30% or so. The reason people buy an old junker is because they don't have the money for a new car. Compared to a newer used car, an old junker is actually more expensive. Of course being able to repair it yourself (or have friends fix it) brings down the cost of maintenance a lot, but most people only have the option to bring it to a proper garage.

Reliability problems don't only mean coming late for work. Having to pick up your kid, or just simply not wanting to stand in the rain for hours to get road side help is the reason to want a properly functioning car. I have never been late for work when I was driving a junker, but even being stuck on the side of the road once a year is unacceptable to me.

Another major issue is the safety. A new car will drive just about straight through a 10 year old car. I saw some crash tests and the new models (of the same brand and type) completely tore the old models apart.

[paigeoliver]

Yes, but a 30 year old car will drive straight through a new car!!! And most gas guzzlers will drive through economy cars regardless of the eras they are from.

German cars get roadside assistance called a lot more often because Mercedes Benz has an 800 number in the doorjam of all their cars and they provide free roadside assistance for many problems. Run out of gas, need a jump start, or have a flat tire, they do all of that free, regardless of the age of the car. That severely jacks up the amount of calls on German cars.

My Mercedes Benz also doesn't stand up to what I am talking about, it is a semi-exotic and thus is just as pricey to drive as a brand new car due to repair and maintenance costs. It just isn't the same thing as a 98 Ford Taurus. I also only plan on keeping that Benz for about 2 years, maybe only 1 (mileage is still low enough where it isn't particularly likely to complete eat me alive yet). I love it, but there are a LOT of cars I have always wanted to own, and I like rotating through old cars. I still want to own a Ford Fairmont Futura with a white vinyl top, I still want to own an early 70s Datsun pickup, a Corvair convertible and about a dozen other oddball cars.

Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.

In just about any given year my total car purchase, repair, maintenance and insurance costs total up to far less money than just the premium I would pay in taxes, insurance, interest and comp/collision on a new car. That 30 percent total just doesn't hold water when the extra operating costs alone are higher than my whole vehicle budget.

Also, newer model used cars combine the worst of both worlds. They still drop in value like a rock (just like new cars) AND they generally get just as many repairs done to them as a clunker (except the parts cost more).

Granted, I will completely and totally agree with your 30 percent total if you are into pre-emptive repairs, and take that Ford Escort to the body shop for every ding it gets. When I say pre-emptive repairs I mean things like replacing the transmission because it shifts a little hard into 3rd, when that car might take that problem to its grave without actually failing.

Also, if you have the room you can SEVERELY cut down on your repair costs on old cars if you buy a second running example, stick it under a tarp, and pull the parts off as needed. Doing that even allows non-mechanics to actually figure out some repairs, since you now have the ability to diagnose by parts swapping. In fact if I just had a place to put it then I could buy a Mercedes sedan with the same 3.8 engine my car has (the sedans are dirt cheap), and watch my repair costs drop to almost nothing, as I could pull almost any part I needed from the other car.

[danny_galaga]

paige is right, 'fess up and admit you want a new car just because. it's not because it's CHEAPER than an old car. there's no shame in admitting it. we all like to have new things. I myself have owned a new car (for a business, paid in cash). for me it's transport. when im a millionaire i might buy something fancier. but then again im a little eccentric, ill probably just fully restore my current car, as a thank you for helping become a millioniare (because theres no way id become one blowing dough on new cars).

the maths just doesnt add up. if you have a reasonable condition old car (and not too exotic), and it's well maintained it can't possibly be costing you more than a brand new car...

[patrickl]

I said driving a new car is 30% more expensive.

For this 30% extra I get a huge leap in reliability, driving experience and safety. Easily worth it.

[Jouster]

You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.

Hell no, I do about 90% of my driving on the interstate...so at least warp 8 or 9 most of the time.

Jouster

[AtomSmasher]

Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.

So you admit that older cars are less reliable then newer ones.  For me this is the biggest factor because any breakdowns, even not being able to start up is much more then a minor inconvenience.  I am self employed and am constantly meeting people at specific times.  Quite often those people take time off work so that they can meet me, meet at their lunch break, or its the only day off that they have, so rescheduling for a different day or time isn't an option.  If my car doesn't start, then I lose money, period.  I've owned used cars in the past and I've had them break down on me.  My past few cars have all been new cars and while I've never put more then 60,000 miles on any one of them, none of them have ever broken down on me, not once.  The worst I've had is a flat tire, which made me an hour late, but luckily the person I was meeting was able to leave the key under the mat, which is something people normally won't do.

Also, I often literally spend 8-hour days in my car driving around, so I prefer a car that is clean and quiet.  A cheap used car will likely have plenty of stains, scratches, or dents in the interior or exterior, and have plenty of sqeaks and rattles in the interior.  When I buy a new car, I know the interior is nice and clean and I don't buy a car if the interior has squeeks or rattles because it just bugs me.  Yes I'm anal and these are minor issues I could learn to live with in a used car, but I'd prefer not to.  Not to mention I like newer features like a built in MP3 player which you don't see too often on old cars.

[paigeoliver]

Every business (self employed or not) relies on vehicles in some fashion or another, and breakdowns are a part of the business world. Replacing heavy use business vehicles every 60,000 miles in order to avoid ever even having a single repair is a bad business model.

But I am finished trying to educate here, everyone please continue telling yourselves that you NEED those new cars because the old ones break down all the time, and not because you just WANT a new car.

Man, I have no idea how all those businesses that generally run their vehicles up to 300K manage to make a profit with all those breakdowns. I am not even sure how construction workers ever get a house built or keep their job with all those beat up old pickup trucks they drive.

By the way, food for thought, lets say I offered you a deal where about once a year I would randomly call you up and delay you by an hour by talking about muffins. In exchange you would receive $4000 a year from me, tax free. Would you take that deal? Yeah, I would too. Amazing how many who think the random muffin phone call is a great deal, and then turn around and spend $4000 a year to avoid a possible small delay.

Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.

So you admit that older cars are less reliable then newer ones.  For me this is the biggest factor because any breakdowns, even not being able to start up is much more then a minor inconvenience.  I am self employed and am constantly meeting people at specific times.  Quite often those people take time off work so that they can meet me, meet at their lunch break, or its the only day off that they have, so rescheduling for a different day or time isn't an option.  If my car doesn't start, then I lose money, period.  I've owned used cars in the past and I've had them break down on me.  My past few cars have all been new cars and while I've never put more then 60,000 miles on any one of them, none of them have ever broken down on me, not once.  The worst I've had is a flat tire, which made me an hour late, but luckily the person I was meeting was able to leave the key under the mat, which is something people normally won't do.

Also, I often literally spend 8-hour days in my car driving around, so I prefer a car that is clean and quiet.  A cheap used car will likely have plenty of stains, scratches, or dents in the interior or exterior, and have plenty of sqeaks and rattles in the interior.  When I buy a new car, I know the interior is nice and clean and I don't buy a car if the interior has squeeks or rattles because it just bugs me.  Yes I'm anal and these are minor issues I could learn to live with in a used car, but I'd prefer not to.  Not to mention I like newer features like a built in MP3 player which you don't see too often on old cars.

[AtomSmasher]

Because a business with only one person in the company runs exactly the same as larger business, right?  Right now work is extremely slow and losing one client is the matter of staying in business or declaring bankruptcy (and don't say the reason is because I buy new cars, $200/mo does not make or break a business), so I do everything in my power to keep them happy.  If you happen to miss a few hours of work because of car trouble, would you lose your job?  Right now that is a distinct possibility for me.

And, I don't change my car every 60,000 miles to avoid breakdowns.  My first new car I sold because I was upgrading to a much nicer car, then I "sold" the nicer car because it got totalled in an accident, so I had no choice but to get a new car.  I would of kept the nicer car indefinitely because it was by far the best car I ever owned.  I babied that car, changing the oil every 3000 miles, the interior was still like new after 3 years, and not a single scratch (until the accident of course).  Everything about the car was excellent quality, so I have no doubt that car would of lasted a very long time before needing a major repair.  But like I said, I had no choice but to get rid of it.

Also, when I went looking for my latest car, I looked at a lot of used cars and the used cars under $8,000 were pretty much all POS's falling apart with 100,000 or more miles on them.  I found a one possibly good used car that I talked the dealer down to $13,000 for the car, but decided to think about it, at which point I found out Saturn was selling cars for 0% interest and I could buy a brand new car for the same payments of the used car I almost bought.  That was definitely a horrible decision on my part, right?   

And you also seem to have selective reading, because I said that buying new cars means that I'm spending more money and that there were more reasons for wanting a new car other then reliability.  Yes, I could buy a car for under $5000 that is extremely reliable, but a reliable car for that money would be a POS in every other respect.  I could also buy an old moped and save even more money, perhaps I'll do that since reliability and saving money are apparently the only things that matter.

[patrickl]

But I am finished trying to educate here, everyone please continue telling yourselves that you NEED those new cars because the old ones break down all the time, and not because you just WANT a new car.

You really should look better into where your costs are. If you add it all up you will see there really is not that big a cost difference between buying a new car every 4 years and driving an old car. The drop in depreciation is compensated largely by the increase in maintenance costs and the lower fuel bill for a newer car.

[danny_galaga]

look, most people here are making valid points. atomsmasher, the one time i bought a new car was for my business. and like you say you want that extra bit of reliability (i was a courier, i especially needed that). i put 150,000km on it before i sold it (daewoo matiz, thats a lot for an 800cc car). near the end of me owning the business it started to play up. first the water pump, then the clutch. then an aircon compressor bracket. quite acceptable though for a work vehicle. if i had continued, that would have been the time to buy another car (after 3 years in this case). If you are a very well paid person of some importance to the company you might want a new car too, because you dont want to be late for meetings, appointments etc.

for all us 9-5ers, if you are late every now and then for work because of a car break down, thats quite acceptable. if the boss were to fire you for that, who wanted to work for an a-hole like that anyway?

patrickl, i still dont follow your maths. especially with the luxurious position of replacing new cars every 4 years. lets break it down over four years first (ball park figures to get a handle on whats happening) in dollars. the cars in this case are similar in fuel consumption so we need only look at extra costs:

                            new car                                 old car
                            mid sized   small                    mid sized   small

year one              30,000       15000                  5000         2,500
year two                       0               0                    500            500
year three                    0                0                    500            500
year four                  500             500                 1000            500

total                     30500         15500                 7000         4,000

thats the kinda 30% id like my shares to earn 

ok, now to year five

first we sell our cars. this is what we get for them:

                          new car                                   old car
sell                      15000     7000                        2500          1000

so this is what we have left after four years. in four years we have spent 15500/8500 on a new car, and 4500/3000 for an old car. now to buy another car

year five              35000    17000                       7000           4000

using the money from the previous sale, we have spent another 20k/10k on the new, and another 4.5k/3k on the old. the total spent so far by year 5 in this simpistic model is pretty much the bottom line- new 35000/17000, old 7000/4000. 

a pretty simple example i must admit. it doesnt include the fact that your old car might suffer such expensive wear (like replacing an engine) that you are better off just buying another car. therefore just double the price on the bottom line for old cars from 7000/4000 to 14000/8000. thats still less than half what you spent on the new car.

 thats one extreme, the other is what my dad used to do. he would buy really beat up old cars (even from the wreckers, and at least once was given a car) and drive them for a year or two (and fixing them with parts scavenged/wreckers) before buying another one. make that bottom line $500 x 5 years/$400 x 5 years= $2500/$2000! following his lead,my first car was $150, spent maybe $200 getting it on the road, and then sold it for $800 a couple of years later  a cortina mkII. sigh, the memories...

and yes, you can get mid sized cars for 20k or so. the quality will be a little less, and more chance of things going wrong

year one    20000
year two            0
year three         0
year four      1000

year five sell, get 10000

buy new car 22000. only if you compare a new small car to an old large car will the figure get closer, in my opinion...

this is an economic reason only. yes, it is freakin cool buying a new car and being the first to own it, and having smell new for several years (several months in the case of a couriers car  ). but for some of us, its even more cool to have an extra 10 or 20 grand to play with in 5 years. not many of us (including me until the last couple of years) will be able to show you 20 grand after 5 years, but it would have meant a lot more comfort and the ability to buy other new things! even i wouldnt buy something like a TV or console second hand if i can get it new. hell, i even spent $90 on a sega genesis lately because it was brand new!

edit: when i say economic reason, obviously im talking about personal economics. on the national or global scale, people need to buy new cars to keep the economy going.

[patrickl]

You need to look at all costs and use realistic values.

Buying a new Honda civic and driving it for 4 years, costs me 600 euro a month (everything included for 15,000km a year). An old car (from it's 5th till 9th year) costs between 400 and 500 a month. Driving an even older car is a crap shoot. It could cost between 300 and 2,000 euro a month.

[danny_galaga]

You need to look at all costs and use realistic values.

Buying a new Honda civic and driving it for 4 years, costs me 600 euro a month (everything included for 15,000km a year). An old car (from it's 5th till 9th year) costs between 400 and 500 a month. Driving an even older car is a crap shoot. It could cost between 300 and 2,000 euro a month.

holy crap! thats $48000! i could just buy a 10 grand car and each year just leave it by the side of the road and buy another 10 grand car and id still be ahead! you better stop with the figures, my case is getting stronger 

[patrickl]

Ehm, you really need to check your math. 600*48=48,000?

Buy two 10 grand cars and they will cost you a whole lot more than 28,800 over 4 years if you drive 15,000km a year (with either car)

All costs includes not just depreciation. besides depreciation you need to add insurance, fuel, maintenance, road taxes and some even add even interest lost on the initial purchase amount (if you didn;t need to borrow the money already, because then you need to add teh interest on the loan of course).

[danny_galaga]

28,800 euro = $48,000 

[Jdurg]

Well, I bought my Civic brand new in the fall of 2003 for less than $20,000 and plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore.  I'm of the philosophy that the only reason to buy a car is that you need to, not because you want to.  So my Civic will probably last me another five or six years before I start thinking about getting a new one.  I'd say my money was very well spent.

[paigeoliver]

One minor comment.

If your business is so close to the edge that being late for a single customer could put you under, could it possibly be because your expenses are so high?