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Poll

How good is your daily driver on gas?

0 - 10 MPG
11 - 20 MPG
21 - 30 MPG
31 - 40 MPG
41+ MPG
  

Author Topic: What kind of gas mileage do you get?  (Read 39167 times)

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What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« on: April 11, 2008, 09:12:01 am »
After voting, post what you drive, and what your range is.  I'll start off:

'08 Honda Fit Sport AT, in the 31 to 40 MPG range.

shardian

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2008, 09:16:18 am »
89 Volvo 740GL that gets a pathetic 21mpg.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2008, 09:25:29 am »
2002 Chevy Blazer 11-20mpg.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2008, 09:32:34 am »
01 Nissan Xterra 11-20 mpg
full-time sucker for part-time pay

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2008, 09:44:51 am »
03 Kia Optima - 21-30mpg   Mostly freeway miles.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2008, 09:54:44 am »
06 Honda Civic
31-40 mpg

I think the highest I ever got was 38.  Probably average 33.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 10:35:55 am »
I know I am around 20mpg in the v6 camaro I am driving.  Was my wifes car before we had kids, so I just started driving it a couple years ago since it is paid off.  I'm not sure if I am slightly under or over the 20mpg mark so I'm not sure which range to choose.  I'll check my mileage next time I fill up.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2008, 12:03:16 pm »
06 Pontiac G6, computer shows 26.7, I hope to trade for a Chevy Colorado in the next year.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2008, 12:32:21 pm »
06 Lexus IS250 RWD - solid 24mpg


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2008, 01:09:51 pm »
I know I am around 20mpg in the v6 camaro I am driving.  Was my wifes car before we had kids, so I just started driving it a couple years ago since it is paid off.  I'm not sure if I am slightly under or over the 20mpg mark so I'm not sure which range to choose.  I'll check my mileage next time I fill up.


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2008, 02:13:47 pm »
99 Mercury Tracer 30-35 MPG.  I commute 60 miles one way and this car has been great for me.  Bought it new in 2000 with 7 miles on it and its still going strong at 245,000 (will hit that today on my way home.) 

I know most of you bash Ford products but I can't complain one bit about this car.  I've had no major problems at all.  Alternator went at 95k, timing belt at 110K, and since most of my miles are highway miles I've only put on 2 sets of brakes since I bought it. 

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2008, 05:33:30 pm »
2002 Jeep Wrangler.  Best I've ever gotten was about 18.5 Mpg, worst is about 11 ish.  Average is about 14.




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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2008, 11:08:08 pm »
I know I am around 20mpg in the v6 camaro I am driving.  Was my wifes car before we had kids, so I just started driving it a couple years ago since it is paid off.  I'm not sure if I am slightly under or over the 20mpg mark so I'm not sure which range to choose.  I'll check my mileage next time I fill up.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G81xwG4xQU[/youtube]
lol.  I wouldn't call my camaro bitchin', but it is black and has t-tops.  I know it's not a trans am, but i still take out the t-tops when it's nice and pretend i'm the bandit. :P

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 11:21:45 pm »
TransAm - hehe, used to have a Bandit edition, but this is a newer model. I get 25 mpg highway, and 10 mpg when I stomp on it. So... about 10 mpg...

 ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2008, 01:29:06 am »
Mitsubishi FTO GPX MIVEC, average about 26mpg and that costs me enough. I dread to think what some of your lower mpg cars would cost to run over here! (UK)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2008, 01:48:42 am »

21-30MPG for my '73 type 3 VW. not great at all (although no worse than many modern cars), but its scary how many clicked 11-20MPG  :o

still, coulda been worse, at least no one has clicked 0-10MPG.

yet  ;D


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2008, 01:55:24 am »
02 Subaru WRX, average around 24-25 MPG.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2008, 07:32:33 am »
84 Mercedes Benz 380SL getting right at 20 in mixed driving.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2008, 08:16:26 am »
5,5 liter per 100 km. Skoda Oktavia Station Diesel 1.9 liter 105 horsepower.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2008, 10:06:09 am »
2000 Dodge Durango (360ci V8) - 13.5 mpg freeway from Idaho to San Diego and back. 

1997 Dodge Dakota (315ci V8) - 15-16 mpg freeway

1977 Dodge Class-C 22' RV (440ci monster) - 6 mpg freeway (pulling a dune buggy)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2008, 03:05:45 pm »
I pity you mortals and your dependance on vehicles. j/k

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2008, 07:57:17 pm »
2000 Dodge Durango (360ci V8) - 13.5 mpg freeway from Idaho to San Diego and back. 

1997 Dodge Dakota (315ci V8) - 15-16 mpg freeway

1977 Dodge Class-C 22' RV (440ci monster) - 6 mpg freeway (pulling a dune buggy)



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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2008, 09:55:56 pm »
2000 Chevy 1500 Silverado.

Small V8.

Nice and roomy.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2008, 11:25:36 pm »
2007 Mazda 3 hatchback -- 2.3l engine

I average around 25mpg, but I could get a good 4+ more mpg if I drove more reasonably.  I have too much fun driving it the way I do though :)
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2008, 09:19:36 pm »
'03 PT Cruiser - 11 to 20 (MAYBE slightly above that)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2008, 01:36:44 am »
I got you all beat with my boat;

7.3L Mercruiser on a 27' cruiser


20 gph - that's gallons per HOUR

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2008, 01:53:31 am »
I got you all beat with my boat;

7.3L Mercruiser on a 27' cruiser


20 gph - that's gallons per HOUR
Your daily driver is a boat?  Thats awesome.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2008, 09:03:53 am »
5,5 liter per 100 km. Skoda Oktavia Station Diesel 1.9 liter 105 horsepower.
Hey I just did the conversion on this site:http://www.convertworld.com/en/fuel_consumption/Miles+per+gallon.html

and 5,5 liter per 100 km equals to 42,77 MPG !!!!!!!!!

You petrol waisting ---daisies--- ! And believe me I do NOT drive slowly. And no it's not a miniature car.

I cruise 140 km/h (87 mph) on highways (unless there are traffic jams, which there are a lot overhere). I don't do much city driving though.

This is what a modern Turbo Diesel engine can bring you my friends. And the engine is a REAL puller ! I quickly shift through the gears, those modern turbo-diesels are VERY powerfull at low RPM's. I leave most cars behind me.

I guess, íf I'd drive more economic I'd get 53 Mpg easily.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 09:05:52 am by Level42 »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 09:22:20 am »
5,5 liter per 100 km. Skoda Oktavia Station Diesel 1.9 liter 105 horsepower.
Hey I just did the conversion on this site:http://www.convertworld.com/en/fuel_consumption/Miles+per+gallon.html

and 5,5 liter per 100 km equals to 42,77 MPG !!!!!!!!!

You petrol waisting ---daisies--- ! And believe me I do NOT drive slowly. And no it's not a miniature car.

I cruise 140 km/h (87 mph) on highways (unless there are traffic jams, which there are a lot overhere). I don't do much city driving though.

This is what a modern Turbo Diesel engine can bring you my friends. And the engine is a REAL puller ! I quickly shift through the gears, those modern turbo-diesels are VERY powerfull at low RPM's. I leave most cars behind me.

I guess, íf I'd drive more economic I'd get 53 Mpg easily.

If I could buy a diesel car here, I would. I have looked for a used Diesel VW Jetta, but they are rare in the states. Those things average in the 40's for MPG. They blow the dumbass hybrids right out of the water. Unfortunately, diesel is $1 more expensive that gasoline right now, so much of the benefit is wiped out.

Another problem with diesel is that not every gas station has diesel. If you get away from the interstate, it can get more difficult to get gas.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2008, 01:12:28 pm »
1998 Jeep Wrangler

13 in town with top and doors off
15-16 in town with top and doors on
18-19 highway
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2008, 05:24:42 pm »
'03 PT Cruiser - 11 to 20 (MAYBE slightly above that)

WTF?  Why is the gas mileage in a PT Cruiser so horrible?  The thing is no bigger than a largeish sedan.  And it has no power.  Also, why are the inside door handles mounted the way they are?  And why do rental car companies always want to give me a PT Cruiser.  I now specify "no PT Cruiser" as a matter of course whenever I'm reserving a car rental, cos I know that's the car I'll get if I don't take this precaution.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2008, 05:46:05 pm »
'03 PT Cruiser - 11 to 20 (MAYBE slightly above that)

WTF?  Why is the gas mileage in a PT Cruiser so horrible?  The thing is no bigger than a largeish sedan.  And it has no power.  Also, why are the inside door handles mounted the way they are?  And why do rental car companies always want to give me a PT Cruiser.  I now specify "no PT Cruiser" as a matter of course whenever I'm reserving a car rental, cos I know that's the car I'll get if I don't take this precaution.
Because it has a crappy petrol slurping US engine.

http://www.ptcruiserproblems.com/
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 05:52:22 pm by Level42 »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2008, 05:48:45 pm »
5,5 liter per 100 km. Skoda Oktavia Station Diesel 1.9 liter 105 horsepower.
Hey I just did the conversion on this site:http://www.convertworld.com/en/fuel_consumption/Miles+per+gallon.html

and 5,5 liter per 100 km equals to 42,77 MPG !!!!!!!!!

You petrol waisting ---daisies--- ! And believe me I do NOT drive slowly. And no it's not a miniature car.

I cruise 140 km/h (87 mph) on highways (unless there are traffic jams, which there are a lot overhere). I don't do much city driving though.

This is what a modern Turbo Diesel engine can bring you my friends. And the engine is a REAL puller ! I quickly shift through the gears, those modern turbo-diesels are VERY powerfull at low RPM's. I leave most cars behind me.

I guess, íf I'd drive more economic I'd get 53 Mpg easily.

If I could buy a diesel car here, I would. I have looked for a used Diesel VW Jetta, but they are rare in the states. Those things average in the 40's for MPG. They blow the dumbass hybrids right out of the water. Unfortunately, diesel is $1 more expensive that gasoline right now, so much of the benefit is wiped out.

Another problem with diesel is that not every gas station has diesel. If you get away from the interstate, it can get more difficult to get gas.

Diesel is cheaper then petrol overhere that's an extra reason why almost all company cars are Diesel. Then again, road tax is higher and also there's extra tax on the sale's price.

You can get Diesel at every gas station here.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2008, 07:40:58 am »

meh. diesels are smelly...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2008, 08:18:24 am »

meh. diesels are smelly...

and that right there is why diesels are not popular here. Oh I'm not agreeing with you Danny, I'm just saying your thought process is antiquated. When Americans think of diesel, we see dirty nasty coal trucks, tankers, and bulldozers - all of which belch big clouds of smoke from their stacks.
When they think of diesel cars, they think of the loud innefficient Mercede's models from the early 80's.

New diesel cars are badass, as level42 will reiterate.

As to price, diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. After Hurricane Katrina, diesel has just been creeping up and up.
The way I see it, screw the rest of us and our gas - that is secondary. The government needs to get off their ass and do something about diesel prices. gas tax breaks, increased domestic supply for diesel only, etc. The diesel is what drives this country, and effects the prices of everything we buy. I would be fine paying $3 for gas, as long as I didn't have to also pay for the $4 diesel via surcharges, inflation, etc.

Rant off. :soapbox:

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2008, 09:50:56 am »
07 Ford Fusion

24-28 city driving (Duluth has lots of hills)
32-34 HWY


Sure beats our old ford ranger and F150XLT which drained about 12-16mpg.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2008, 10:41:57 am »
Diesel is a health hazard. These days it doesn't smell anymore, but the invisible particles cause cancer and heart disease. Especially kids suffer since they need more oxygen per kilogram of body mass.

The filters are able to take out the "larger" particulates, but it's the smallest ones that cause the most damage. The smaller the particulate the more damaging it is. That's why current filter laws are just not working. Indeed the total mass of particulates is decreasing, but the number of particulates is going up. Which is exactly the opposite of what you'd actually want.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2008, 10:44:00 am »
Diesel is a health hazard.

So is gasoline. I know what you mean though.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2008, 10:51:31 am »
2005 Mustang (the V-6, not the GT) about 20, and I drive 45 miles each way to work every day. My wife's Prius gets about 45MPG.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2008, 12:52:03 pm »

meh. diesels are smelly...
Yes, that was 10 years ago. Shardian is right. You guys just have not been in contact with the modern Diesel engines of today.

Whenever my car at the dealers' and I get a replacement car that is running on petrol, I am irritated by it's slow acceleration.

Patrick forgets to mention that a Diesel engine produces only a fraction of poisonous CO.  In that way, it's a lot cleaner than a petrol engine. Also, because of the much better milage Diesel engines are oil savers.

One way or the other, driving will pollute. Even all the "alternatives".
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 12:53:46 pm by Level42 »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2008, 01:36:15 pm »
Patrick forgets to mention that a Diesel engine produces only a fraction of poisonous CO.  In that way, it's a lot cleaner than a petrol engine. Also, because of the much better milage Diesel engines are oil savers.
CO is not really the same threat as particulates are.

Diesel is not really an oil saver and neither is it an answer in fighting climate change.

It actually costs more oil to make diesel and the proces of making diesel also creates 25% more CO2 than creating gasoline does. When burned diesel emits more CO2 than gasoline does. If you offset all that with the extra mileage of diesel then there really is not that much difference between the two.

So diesel does not win on CO2 emissions nor on oil consumption. At best it's a minute difference of a few procent.

Quote
One way or the other, driving will pollute. Even all the "alternatives".
There is "pollute" and there is "emit a huge number of harmful of toxic particles" (as in 25 to 500 times as many). In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.

The biggest problem is that the current legislation is not able to cope with the threat that diesel poses. The legislation is set on grams of carbon per kilometer (mile). The problem with that is that the ultra-fine particulates (the ones which are actually not stopped by these modern filters) are the bulk of the number of particulates coming from a diesel engine, but since they are so small (smaller than 30nm) they weigh a lot less than the bigger particles which weigh a lot, pose much less of a threat and are indeed filtered by current filters. So what the current rules and filters are doing is taking out the soot that is less harmful to our health and in fact increasing the number of harmful particulates in the air.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2008, 11:38:44 pm »
Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.


meh. diesels are smelly...

and that right there is why diesels are not popular here. Oh I'm not agreeing with you Danny, I'm just saying your thought process is antiquated. When Americans think of diesel, we see dirty nasty coal trucks, tankers, and bulldozers - all of which belch big clouds of smoke from their stacks.
When they think of diesel cars, they think of the loud innefficient Mercede's models from the early 80's.

New diesel cars are badass, as level42 will reiterate.

As to price, diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. After Hurricane Katrina, diesel has just been creeping up and up.
The way I see it, screw the rest of us and our gas - that is secondary. The government needs to get off their ass and do something about diesel prices. gas tax breaks, increased domestic supply for diesel only, etc. The diesel is what drives this country, and effects the prices of everything we buy. I would be fine paying $3 for gas, as long as I didn't have to also pay for the $4 diesel via surcharges, inflation, etc.

Rant off. :soapbox:
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2008, 12:04:37 am »

In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.


What???  That's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  You can't measure that.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2008, 01:31:47 am »
Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.



dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2008, 04:27:38 am »

In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.


What???  That's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  You can't measure that.
Why not?

- They can show a relationship between lung cancer and number of particulates in the air
- They can estimate the number of particulates emitted by diesel cars and petrol cars

Looked up some California research on the matter. Not sure if it's the one I was referring to earlier, but it shows how it works:
Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Matter
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2008, 05:42:23 am »
I didn't plan on actually getting one or anything.

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.



dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2008, 07:18:03 am »
I didn't plan on actually getting one or anything.

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.



dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...

i know, i was just being melodramatic  ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2008, 07:53:35 am »
07 honda fit sport
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2008, 08:54:48 am »
My daily driver gets 30+ consistently, it's a 2008 Yaris 4-door.

I've measured 5 mpg in my 1994 RX-7.  That was a weekend of track driving, plus about 45 minutes each way to and from the track.  The flames shooting out of the tailpipe should be a pretty good sign that it's not going to get good gas mileage. ;)  It gets 12-25 mpg under "normal" driving.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2008, 09:09:27 am »
07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2008, 10:46:40 am »
2003 Dodge Ram 4x4 with 5.7L HEMI

Avg. 12.1 mpg (with a tail wind)  ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2008, 03:23:19 pm »
In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.


What???  That's ---smurf-poop---.  You can't measure that.
Why not?

- They can show a relationship between lung cancer and number of particulates in the air
- They can estimate the number of particulates emitted by diesel cars and petrol cars

Looked up some California research on the matter. Not sure if it's the one I was referring to earlier, but it shows how it works:
Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Matter

So I guess that gets the tobacco companies off the hook now.

I hear actually the rates are directly related to the absence of pirates, or something like that...

PS: 1991 Honda CRX dx: 28 to 38 mpg
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 03:30:46 pm by RayB »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2008, 04:54:05 am »
40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2008, 07:25:37 am »
40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

 :o

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #54 on: April 17, 2008, 09:35:29 am »
07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #55 on: April 17, 2008, 09:37:26 am »
Yeah I'm a member over at fitfreak. 

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2008, 09:30:08 pm »
I daily drive a V8.

Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

If you want to throttle someone then throttle the long commute people. My weekly commute in my V8 is a grand total of 72 miles using 3.5 gallons of fuel (for the whole week). Plenty of people use more fuel than that in a single day in their hybrid and somehow feel superior because they get good gas mileage, even though they are driving 75 miles to work in San Francisco each way and that is the closest they could afford to live to the smug capital of the world.

So, hows your commute Apollo??

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2008, 10:01:13 am »
Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

How many are retiring a gas guzzler and putting it in a shed to rot away?  A vehicle that runs well will get driven by somebody.  People aren't taking V8's off the road before they're used up just because they get bad gas mileage.

I agree with the idea that the biggest part of our oil problem (that we can control) is suburban sprawl.  If people in the US didn't leave themselves dependent on long commutes to/from work, the whole oil price things would be a non issue.  But this is where we are.  I think we were foolish to put ourselves into this position, but generally, our country doesn't usually do the smartest thing, does it?

Most people live further from work because they could afford a nicer house the further they drove... and in today's housing market, it can be tough to unload a house.  I know people who owe more on their house than they can sell it for!  Not around here, thankfully (we've had positive growth).  My wife and I saw beyond this before oil prices were a problem.  We paid more for a house a few miles from downtown, in a nice, established, safe neighborhood with several different paths to work, and only a couple of traffic lights.  The extra we paid for our house has been MORE than made up for by saved time and travel costs.

The fact is that it's still a lot easier for most americans to switch to a vehicle that gets double or triple the gas mileage than it is for them to move.

Wade

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2008, 10:13:45 am »
Sure people won't just destroy old cars. Which makes it all the more important that people don't buy new V8's when there is no good reason for it. Or that in general people buy cars with better fuel economy. We're stuck with the burden of these new cars for 10 to 15 years.

This is another reason why electric cars would work. If we find better, cleaner ways to produce electricity, the pollution "created by" the electric car decreases.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2008, 10:40:35 am »
The prices of new and used SUV's has fallen sharply the last couple years. Most buyers do the math and realize the money they are saving in the lower price more than offsets the cost of gas for several years.

I am currently driving a P.O.S. Volvo that gets 20mpg. I was looking to buy a newer car in the 4k range that gets in the upper 20's mpg (these are damn near impossible to find too - other than junkers in the same shape as what I'm driving or worse). Driving the Volvo will cost me an extra $600-$700 per year in gas than a car that gets 25-30 mpg.

So instead of emptying my savings or paying a $150 car payment a month, I simply pay $50 more in gas per month.

Damn, these calculations depress the hell out of me. Before Hurricane Katrina, $600-$700 was close to my gas budget for the whole year. :cry:

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2008, 12:01:42 pm »
07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

Tek
 

So how do y'all like the Fit overall?

I signed up for a smart car but I was planning on getting a Fit if my current car dies before my smart gets to me sometime in the summer of '09.

The Fit got good reviews for its class and it is cheap.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2008, 12:10:46 pm »
I love my Fit... good cargo room, great gas mileage, but still fun to drive, navigates in traffic very well...  I'd highly recommend it!

Plus... a candy cab can fit in the back! :)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2008, 01:14:07 pm »
07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

Tek
 

So how do y'all like the Fit overall?

I signed up for a smart car but I was planning on getting a Fit if my current car dies before my smart gets to me sometime in the summer of '09.

The Fit got good reviews for its class and it is cheap.


Its basically a hatch back civic. (It has a civic engine in it)

Cargo room is hugh for its size.

Very good safety rating.

MPG is at the very top of the non-hybrid range.

Its super cheap for a commuter vehicle

Its got the Honda name backing it.

Very satisfied.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2008, 01:36:57 pm »
1987 Ford Bronco  12-14 mpg

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2008, 06:41:15 pm »
Talking about mileage, the Shell Eco marathon is coming again (end of may).

Last year the winner in the prototype class drove 3039 km on one liter of fuel. That's 7148mpg!

The winning "UrbanConcept" got 1352mpg.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2008, 08:13:24 pm »
My commute is 5 minutes. I should really cycle to work but the whole arriving at work in sweaty clothes doesn't really do much for me.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2008, 09:38:00 pm »
My commute is 5 minutes. I should really cycle to work but the whole arriving at work in sweaty clothes doesn't really do much for me.

5 minutes makes you sweat? you really need to get on that bike!


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2008, 11:20:14 pm »
I'm in the same situation as Paige - 350hp gas slurpin' V8, but my commute to work is 4 miles one way. 40 miles a week, and a little on the weekend, so I drive it about 3,000 miles a year. I use about 200 gallons of gas a year. How about you Level 42, Mr Diesel Lover? Who pollutes the earth more? My 5.7 liter or your 1.9 liter lawn mower? Plus, I'll bust your ass in a race...

 :P

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2008, 12:41:54 am »

paiges car aint 350hp...

i like the shell marathon stuff. a lot of the entries use modified model engines (",)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2008, 12:57:55 am »
Hee hee, my V8 isn't even close to 350 horsepower, try 150 hp, old Benz V8s are low compression and more engineered to be bulletproof than they were for blazing quarter mile times. It also has a displacement (3.8 liters) in a range that is way more common for 6 cylinder engines than 8 cylinder ones).


paiges car aint 350hp...

i like the shell marathon stuff. a lot of the entries use modified model engines (",)
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2008, 01:02:25 am »


I hear actually the rates are directly related to the absence of pirates, or something like that...



you know it's true! i can vouch for this being the grand prophet of the holy noodle

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2008, 01:44:48 am »

paiges car aint 350hp...

That I know - I just meant the V8 slurpin part...

 ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2008, 06:41:15 am »
05 Toyota Prius 42MPG

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2008, 04:11:29 pm »
2000 park avenue ultra about 25-28mpg
1987 porsche 944 about 28-30mpg

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2008, 08:07:24 pm »
I daily drive a V8.

Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

If you want to throttle someone then throttle the long commute people. My weekly commute in my V8 is a grand total of 72 miles using 3.5 gallons of fuel (for the whole week). Plenty of people use more fuel than that in a single day in their hybrid and somehow feel superior because they get good gas mileage, even though they are driving 75 miles to work in San Francisco each way and that is the closest they could afford to live to the smug capital of the world.

So, hows your commute Apollo??

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

very good point. my car isnt thought of as a gas guzzler, but commuting it gets only about 20MPG. i live so close to work though that it uses about 5 litres of petrol (a bit over 1 gallon) of petrol per week! i normally ride my bike to work though. as patrickl mentioned, you cant blaim people for buying older gas guzzlers when they are cheap.  you can blame car companies for building NEW gas guzzlers. that's wrong.

part of the problem i guess is a tendancy for people in the 'sprawls' to also like activities that might require bigger vehicles- camping, boating etc. the culture needs to change so that people realise you dont need 300-400 HP to get to a forrest or tow a boat...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2008, 02:52:09 am »
06 Scion xA   35 mph

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2008, 02:19:31 am »
06 Scion xA   35 mph

wow, even my VW is fater than that!


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2008, 05:33:39 pm »
I'm in the same situation as Paige - 350hp gas slurpin' V8, but my commute to work is 4 miles one way. 40 miles a week, and a little on the weekend, so I drive it about 3,000 miles a year. I use about 200 gallons of gas a year. How about you Level 42, Mr Diesel Lover? Who pollutes the earth more? My 5.7 liter or your 1.9 liter lawn mower? Plus, I'll bust your ass in a race...

 :P
I absolute numbers, I will pollute more. That's because I need to drive a lot and long distances (for our little country) for my work. It's not my choice. In fact, I'm starting to hate it more and more, especially because of traffic jams.

However, in relative numbers, starting up a V8 for a 4 mile drive is definitely the biggest polluter of the two. Your engine probably never reaches it's operating temperature, so the short drive you make is with a bad burning = lot of polution. Who needs a V8 for 3000 miles per year ? It's crazy.

I drive about 70.000 km per year...that's about 43000 miles. I program and commission Fire alarms around the country. I'm not proud of it, but it's how I make a living. The car is chosen (and paid) by the company. They choose Diesel because it's more economic here. Even though the car is higher taxed, and you need to pay higher road tax, Diesel is still cheaper per liter than gasoline here and, as mentioned you get a fabulous milage.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2008, 05:39:15 pm »
O and despite all the HP's, I will beat you at a race because I know how to handle stick-shift.

And you guys still underestimate the power (torque) of the modern Diesel :D

What V8 do you drive ?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 06:22:12 pm by Level42 »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #79 on: April 22, 2008, 02:36:21 am »

hehe. i'm sure you aren't the only one who can change gears  ;)  i myself have left clowns in their ricers at the lights- for the first 50 metres anyway until they realise what just beat them  :D

just noticed the specs for my old car, a daiwoo matiz- 55MPG!  i never really measured it like that when i had it, but it certainly was economical...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #80 on: April 22, 2008, 11:13:35 pm »
I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #81 on: April 22, 2008, 11:47:41 pm »
If you care about money then why in the world would you ever buy a hybrid? The purchase price and additional maintenance costs swallow the gas savings even at $6 per gallon.

For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #82 on: April 23, 2008, 09:16:56 am »
I've got a 2003 Honda Civic LX, and it gets "good" gas mileage.  I own the car outright, but the next car I buy will be a good hybrid.  The price of gas is just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to high to get anything but a hybrid.

Get a Fit...  I'm rocking the gas mileage, even with driving like a maniac.  There are some people who hypermile their fits, and are getting in the 40's...

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2008, 12:02:40 pm »
Hybrids are subsidized here. But that's easy when a car costs about double the price that you guys pay (taxes, taxes and more taxes.)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2008, 12:57:29 pm »
I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2008, 02:25:19 pm »
I'm surprised there aren't more motorcycles mentioned here.  When the weather permits, I usually ride that to work.  50-55MPG + 0-60 in 3.5 seconds = yay!!

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2008, 02:40:10 pm »
I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

Jouster

You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2008, 02:55:02 pm »
I had a '96 BMW Z3 that got about 32 MPG average, but traded that for a 2007 Pontiac Solstice that gets around 26 MPG.

Jouster

You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.
Why not? I drove an Audi TT (the high power turbo model) and it got 30mpg. I would generally cruise at 100mph so I wasn't really driving slow.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2008, 08:15:29 pm »
For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

Not true!  You can buy a brand new economy car with little down or a junker for trade, for < $200/month for 5 years.  That's very comparable to an old, used car's maintenance costs and higher gas costs (if a larger or inefficient vehicle).  If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own.  That doesn't even consider the opportunity cost of breaking down in an old car.  If you make $25, $50, $100/hr, and miss an important meeting or take an unpaid day off of work, etc. then cost of breaking down is extremely significant.

Driving an older car is often a false economy.  You seem to think that's never the case, but more often than not, it is.

Wade

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2008, 10:21:13 pm »
this all depends on what you know about cars. edit: and also if  you know how to treat them. i'm not a mechanic but i'm pretty good with my cars. $2500 got me my VW- 'the master'. had it a bit over two years now. basic problems i fix myself- $25 for a starter on ebay for instance. i blew some money on a mystery problem that i couldnt figure out and nor could the mechanics (was a split fuel line on the low pressure side of the pump). that was expensive relatively speaking- about $400. although now every piece of fuel line has been replaced (",) had a tune up this year- $200. so thats an average of $300 a year above normal wear and tear. how is that more expensive than $200 a month? if you are in tune with your car, you would be very unlucky to be stuck on the side of the road because you will anticipate problems. even with the fuel line problem i had i was still driving around, just that when you got over 80 it would start to suck air into the fuel line and run really roughly...

my previous old car 'the beast' was even easier to maintain (although i admit had poor fuel economy). i fixed everything on that, including rebuilding the engine, which was about $1000 (including rebore and reconditioned head). drove that car for at least ten years. some of the major services for new cars could cost you nearly that, what with timing belts etc...

so if you buy a new economy car, say it cost ten grand. say you havent paid any interest. in five years you can sell it for $2500. youve lost $7500 right there. not to mention that many of the economy cars arent built that well, so  you may be up for repairs anyway. not to mention if you got a loan and paid interest. an older car like mine has bottomed out pricewise. five years from now i could probably sell it for MORE than $2500. in that time maybe ive spent $2500 on it. in the end then ive lost about $2500...


what paige is talking about though (i think) is the total cost of energy involved in building that car rather than fixing an older one...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 10:22:50 pm by danny_galaga »


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2008, 08:19:28 am »
Wade, the sheer fact that you are discussing a monthly payment as is that was an important number shows me that you really don't have a handle on automotive costs. And for the record, ALL cars need maintenance.

I have been driving about 16 years, 12 of those years I drove sub $2000 clunkers. My TOTAL in repair bills from 1993 to 2007 is LESS than the $2400 you'd make in payments on that hybrid in one year, and that was if you somehow got a $22000 hybrid with $500 down for 5 years down to $200 a month, my loan calculator says that would be $428 a month. Since I am assuming that is impossible I will start talking about a new standard civic instead.

10,000 miles per year on a V8 getting 18 MPG at $3.50 a gallon costs a person $1944 a year.

10,000 miles a year on a standard 2008 Honda civic (29 mpg, which is really pitiful if you ask me) at $3.50 a gallon costs $1206 a year.

So in theory you save yourself $744 a year here, oh wait, how much extra is that full coverage insurance on that car you are financing? Better add in $500 extra a year for that. Now you are saving $244 a year. Ooh, what about property taxes on that brand new car, there goes an amount of money that is going to vary from $0 in some places up to about $900. We will assume your rates are on the lower end and merely eat up that $244.

Wow, now you have broken even.

Wait, there is more, there is about $1200 in sales tax to pay on that car. We will split that over 5 years to be nice. $240 cost per year.

Wait, there is more, to the tune of $600 a year in interest (averaged over 5 years and assuming you have good credit).

Wow, now we are $800 a year in the HOLE on operating expenses, and I haven't even TOUCHED the purchase prices of the vehicles.

Aside from that mercedes I just bought (knowing it needed a repair that would cost nearly a grand), my RECORD for repair costs in one year is only about $700 and those were ALL wear items (tires and exhaust).

I guess we could talk about the purchase prices of the vehicles, although I could line up all my cars from 1993 to 2007 with my purchase prices on the windshield and they would still add up to less than a new civic. Once I account for the money I got back from selling them (and for junking 2 of them) then I didn't spend a whole lot on purchase prices.



For that matter, the extra costs induced by new cars swallow any fuel economy savings as well.

Not true!  You can buy a brand new economy car with little down or a junker for trade, for < $200/month for 5 years.  That's very comparable to an old, used car's maintenance costs and higher gas costs (if a larger or inefficient vehicle).  If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own.  That doesn't even consider the opportunity cost of breaking down in an old car.  If you make $25, $50, $100/hr, and miss an important meeting or take an unpaid day off of work, etc. then cost of breaking down is extremely significant.

Driving an older car is often a false economy.  You seem to think that's never the case, but more often than not, it is.

Wade
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2008, 09:11:32 am »
If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 :laugh2:

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2008, 09:20:13 am »
 Newer cars can leave you stranded with about the same odds as a reliable beater - reliable being the key word.

Me personally, I am a freak and like driving beaters as my commuter. I couldn't imagine paying 10k for a car I simply drive to and from work every day. I also don't mind the occasional break down. It gets me out of work for at least a few hours.  ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2008, 10:35:42 am »
If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 :laugh2:

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.



and actually, chicks dig 'the master' more than if i had an uninteresting, but new car (",)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2008, 11:00:02 am »
Paige makes a lot of great points, but there are some flaws in the logic.

1.  Gas doesn't cost $3.50 a gallon anymore.   :P  The price of gas isn't a constant rate.  Unlike a car payment, the cost of gas will continuously rise so the gas cost of a gas guzzler will rise as time goes on.  I don't think we'll ever see the price of gas drop over the long term ever.  (My buddy has a Jeep Wrangler and he is considering not driving it anymore because he is going broke every week filling it up with gas).

2.  Insurance depends on the model of your car, not the age.  It costs the exact same amount of money to repair a new car as it does an old car.  What matters most is the driver's gender, driving history, and model of car.  (It will cost you a lot more to insure a Corvette if you're a 26 year old male than if you insured a Honda Civic as a 35 year old female).

3.  With a new car, you're buying from a dealer and there will usually be a warranty period.  With a used car, you're not neccessarily buying it from a dealer and there typically will be very limited to no warranty period.  If your car breaks, you're forced to pay whatever cost the local auto repair shop is demanding.

4.  In terms of downpayments, you'd be kind of crazy to not make a substantial downpayment on anything you buy.  I bought my car back in 2003 after saving up to put a nearly 50% downpayment on the car.  That made the monthly payments a complete joke in terms of cost, and I paid off my car in full a few years later.  Now, the only 'costs' with the car are gas costs each week and standard maintance costs every few months.  Costs due to deterioration from wear and tear shouldn't start coming into place until the car has been paid off if you made a proper downpayment.  With a used car, that 'new parts and less wear and tear' factor won't be there so your maintenance costs may be rising while you're still paying off the car. 


If you know a lot about cars then yeah, you can take care of many of these things on your own and not have to worry about it.  Not everybody is an automechanic, however.  We all don't have the time or ability to fix cars or know what to look for.  You can teach me how to throw a curveball, but it doesn't mean I'll actually be able to do it.  Some people are able to, and some people aren't. 

Finally, car payments are a fixed cost that won't go up and won't go down.  Each month, for the entire time you own the car, those payments will remain the same.  The costs of gas and maintenance, however, are highly variable and can change drastically from month to month.  If you have to suddenly drive quite a bit one month and the price of gas skyrockets like it has been lately, then suddenly your monthly "car costs" can exceed what you can afford.  Also, if you aren't very adept at fixing cars on your own, if you get a car that's a 'clunker' that breaks down every few weeks that can cost you a fortune in terms of time missed from work, repair costs, and other costs associated with not having a car.  I just don't buy the "a user car is just as likely to break down as a brand new car" line.  With statistics, however, I can be swayed.  If you can show me legitimate stats which show that new cars break down as often and as expensively as old cars when driven in the same manner, then I'll believe it.

I also assume that a "new car" won't need repairs done to it for a good 4, maybe 5, years unless you drive in such a manner that you're asking for your car to break.




Oh yeah.  Depending on what I eat for dinner the night before, my gas can get some pretty good mileage on it.   ;) :P ;D
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2008, 11:20:25 am »
"New car just as likely to break down as a reliable used car".

There are no statistics, just personal experience of me and family/friends. I have had used cars that have problems, and I have had used cars that never have problems. My current car is a Volvo with almost 300k miles on it. Everything works, and I know it will start and go every time I hop in. The wife drove it before me, and her step dad drove it before her since it was near new. In 300k, it died on the step dad once with a minor issue. The wife had a dead alternator once and happened to be next to an Advance auto. Once on me as I pulled out of the drive way the timing belt broke - which was a surprisingly easy fix.

Before that I had a Geo Tracker that I had up to 215k miles when I traded it in. I had a clutch cable freeze once, and an alternator problem another time. That was it over 6 years.

I also had an "it's just getting broke in at 120k" Toyota Corolla. That thing gave me plenty of problems with overheating, and the engine blew after I had it for a year.

My dad bought a Brand New Ford Ranger, and it routinely had to be worked on throughout the warranty period. The warranty is up now, and it drives like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and is very unreliable.

The thing about new cars is this: they are only new the first day. Once it is 5 years old, it is just as likely to have issues as the 5 year old model I picked up used. The only difference is I paid half as much as you, and am much more statistcially likely to spend less on the car per year in a cost over time ratio.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2008, 11:33:33 am »
Insurance matters because no one with two brain cells to rub together has full coverage insurance on a car worth less than 5 or 6 grand. The comprehensive and collision doubles your insurance rates at a bare minimum.

Also, fuel prices are not simply an upward only trend, in real dollars they have been all over the place historically, and they just found some oil that will now be the third largest oil reserve in the world (and it isn't controlled by middle eastern interests) you will see some changes once that starts pumping.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2008, 11:41:27 am »
Also, if you are purely shooting for finances here then the gas mileage champs of the past (Geo Metro, Honda CRXFX, and Ford Festiva) win hands down. It is far cheaper to keep repairing and rebuilding them than it is to drive anything recent.

Unfortunately every car ever made that got impressive fuel economy was also a total rust monster.

Also, to comment on an earlier comment. Motorcycle fuel savings is phantom savings, motorcycles only have a fraction of the service mileage in them that cars do (thus that purchase price eats deeply into the fuel savings, it doesn't matter what sort of mileage you get when you are depreciating at 25 cents a mile), and if you are adding it to a stable that already includes a car than you are paying extra insurance and licensing, which also eats into your savings.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2008, 12:15:37 pm »
That's one way of looking at it.
My bike is a Honda, was cheap ($6000), insurance is dirt cheap (under a $100 a year since no collision), annual owner tax is around $20, and I didn't buy it solely as a means for gas savings.  I bought it because I enjoy riding.  The gas savings (and having an extra vehicle) is just extra gravy.  The fact remains that when I use it to get to work, I essentially pay half for fuel compared to what even a fuel efficient car owner would pay (probably a quarter as much as the typical giant SUV soccer mom driver).

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2008, 07:08:50 pm »
Paige makes a lot of great points, but there are some flaws in the logic.

1.  Gas doesn't cost $3.50 a gallon anymore.   :P  The price of gas isn't a constant rate.  Unlike a car payment, the cost of gas will continuously rise so the gas cost of a gas guzzler will rise as time goes on.  I don't think we'll ever see the price of gas drop over the long term ever.  (My buddy has a Jeep Wrangler and he is considering not driving it anymore because he is going broke every week filling it up with gas).


how cool is that! the price of fuel doesnt go up for new cars, only old ones! i guess i better trade in the master after all...

oh, and ahofle, its interesting about motorbikes. i remember when it used to cost MORE to insure a bike than a car! the prices sure have come down lately here. a lot fairer now, and good timing since it will encourage more people to ride them to work (which is coincidental since the insurance companies dont really ahve a reason to encourage fuel savings)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #100 on: April 25, 2008, 07:37:32 pm »
how cool is that! the price of fuel doesnt go up for new cars, only old ones! i guess i better trade in the master after all...
When the older car is a V8 gas guzzler and the new car is extremely economical, then the rising gas prices would more prominently effect the gas guzzler.  It has nothing to do with the age of the car, just it's fuel efficiency.

Personally I prefer a new car for my daily driver, but like old classic cars (1970's or older) for my recreational vehicles.  I know buying a cheap used beater saves quite a bit of money and that everytime I buy a new car, I'm throwing a bit of money away, but for my daily driver I need excellent reliability and prefer the extreme cleanliness of a new car and that I know the car has always been properly maintained (since it's new, it hasn't needed any maintence yet).  In general I'm the only person in my car, and I keep it extremely clean.  My current car now has 10,000 miles on it and the interior still has the new car smell.

Some of you have talked about how your used cars are extremely reliable, but when you first buy a used car, you have no idea if it will be reliable.  When you buy a new car, it's under warranty so it doesn't cost you anything to fix it and if it has too many problems, then you can return it under the lemon laws, or sell it before the warranty is up to make it someone elses problem (which adds to the crapshoot of buying a used car).

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #101 on: April 25, 2008, 09:36:14 pm »
oh, and ahofle, its interesting about motorbikes. i remember when it used to cost MORE to insure a bike than a car! the prices sure have come down lately here. a lot fairer now, and good timing since it will encourage more people to ride them to work (which is coincidental since the insurance companies dont really ahve a reason to encourage fuel savings)

It's probably because we are getting old. :)  At least around here it really depends on the bike and the age of the rider.  I know if you're a male under 25 and you're getting full coverage on a performance/sport bike, you can expect to pay several times what an old fart like me pays for his car insurance!

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2008, 02:19:51 am »
Cars (even old ones) just aren't as unreliable as people think they might be. In this era of fuel injection even clunkers don't tend to leave you stranded all that often. I have been driving them forever (come to think of it, even the newest car I ever owned was 5 years old when I bought it), and I have been stranded on the side of the road ONCE. I get stuck with a car that doesn't want to start for some reason an average of maybe once per year, with plenty of periods where I went 2 or 3 years without it happening (combined with a couple times I had it three times in one year, alternator, starter and battery in separate incidents).

The reliability card is simply overplayed in that respect. I haven't been late to work because of car breakdowns in even one time in the last 10 years, actually I can't ever remember being late to work because of an auto breakdown. I was late to work once because of a stolen car (probably could have still got a cab or called a ride to get there on time, but I had to wait for the police to come), and that was the only time I have ever been late to my current job (8 years now).

I respect people who are more honest and just say they want to look fancy or feel good about themselves with a new car, because that is usually the truth, financial and reliability arguments just don't hold up.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2008, 02:51:46 am »
Honestly, when I bought my Civic I bought it brand new because it was my first car.  My parents NEVER taught me how to drive.  They were afraid that my Diabetes would severly hurt me, even though I knew it wouldn't.  I saved up, took lessons from an external source, and passed the test on my first try even though it was snowing at the time.

I saved up for years, and finally was able to put a big downpayment on a car.  I bought my Civic because I liked the small size, and at the time the gas mileage was great.  Now that I've paid it off, it feels even better.  I fill up my tank about once a week, and I fill it up when I get to half-way empty.  It's probably just out of OCD.   :P

I WISH I knew more about cars.  Sadly, all I know is that every 5,000 miles I take it back to my Honda dealer and they do a complete inspection.  65,000 miles later, I haven't had any problems and the money I've spent on the "inspections" has been well worth it.

It feels good having the title to my car.  It also helped my credit rating a TON and helped me buy my house.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2008, 03:22:51 am »
If you look at German break down statistics (how often did people need to call road help), a 5 year old car is already around 20 to 30 times more likely to break down. break downs really skyrocket as age goes on.

To keep your car working in proper order an older car just needs more maintenance. That means it costs more money to run and you have to bring it in to the garage and suffer the nuisance of the car functioning poorly often. You'll find out the hard way if you drive that merc for a few years and you run into repairs that will cost a few thousand dollars.

On average a junker is cheaper than driving a new car yes, but the price difference really is not that great. Maybe 30% or so. The reason people buy an old junker is because they don't have the money for a new car. Compared to a newer used car, an old junker is actually more expensive. Of course being able to repair it yourself (or have friends fix it) brings down the cost of maintenance a lot, but most people only have the option to bring it to a proper garage.

Reliability problems don't only mean coming late for work. Having to pick up your kid, or just simply not wanting to stand in the rain for hours to get road side help is the reason to want a properly functioning car. I have never been late for work when I was driving a junker, but even being stuck on the side of the road once a year is unacceptable to me.

Another major issue is the safety. A new car will drive just about straight through a 10 year old car. I saw some crash tests and the new models (of the same brand and type) completely tore the old models apart.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2008, 06:05:37 am »
Yes, but a 30 year old car will drive straight through a new car!!! And most gas guzzlers will drive through economy cars regardless of the eras they are from.

German cars get roadside assistance called a lot more often because Mercedes Benz has an 800 number in the doorjam of all their cars and they provide free roadside assistance for many problems. Run out of gas, need a jump start, or have a flat tire, they do all of that free, regardless of the age of the car. That severely jacks up the amount of calls on German cars.

My Mercedes Benz also doesn't stand up to what I am talking about, it is a semi-exotic and thus is just as pricey to drive as a brand new car due to repair and maintenance costs. It just isn't the same thing as a 98 Ford Taurus. I also only plan on keeping that Benz for about 2 years, maybe only 1 (mileage is still low enough where it isn't particularly likely to complete eat me alive yet). I love it, but there are a LOT of cars I have always wanted to own, and I like rotating through old cars. I still want to own a Ford Fairmont Futura with a white vinyl top, I still want to own an early 70s Datsun pickup, a Corvair convertible and about a dozen other oddball cars.

Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.

In just about any given year my total car purchase, repair, maintenance and insurance costs total up to far less money than just the premium I would pay in taxes, insurance, interest and comp/collision on a new car. That 30 percent total just doesn't hold water when the extra operating costs alone are higher than my whole vehicle budget.

Also, newer model used cars combine the worst of both worlds. They still drop in value like a rock (just like new cars) AND they generally get just as many repairs done to them as a clunker (except the parts cost more).

Granted, I will completely and totally agree with your 30 percent total if you are into pre-emptive repairs, and take that Ford Escort to the body shop for every ding it gets. When I say pre-emptive repairs I mean things like replacing the transmission because it shifts a little hard into 3rd, when that car might take that problem to its grave without actually failing.

Also, if you have the room you can SEVERELY cut down on your repair costs on old cars if you buy a second running example, stick it under a tarp, and pull the parts off as needed. Doing that even allows non-mechanics to actually figure out some repairs, since you now have the ability to diagnose by parts swapping. In fact if I just had a place to put it then I could buy a Mercedes sedan with the same 3.8 engine my car has (the sedans are dirt cheap), and watch my repair costs drop to almost nothing, as I could pull almost any part I needed from the other car.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2008, 08:31:58 am »


paige is right, 'fess up and admit you want a new car just because. it's not because it's CHEAPER than an old car. there's no shame in admitting it. we all like to have new things. I myself have owned a new car (for a business, paid in cash). for me it's transport. when im a millionaire i might buy something fancier. but then again im a little eccentric, ill probably just fully restore my current car, as a thank you for helping become a millioniare (because theres no way id become one blowing dough on new cars).

the maths just doesnt add up. if you have a reasonable condition old car (and not too exotic), and it's well maintained it can't possibly be costing you more than a brand new car...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2008, 09:41:48 am »
I said driving a new car is 30% more expensive.

For this 30% extra I get a huge leap in reliability, driving experience and safety. Easily worth it.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2008, 11:32:36 am »
You must have the world's lightest foot, because getting 32mpg in that car is close to impossible.

Hell no, I do about 90% of my driving on the interstate...so at least warp 8 or 9 most of the time.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2008, 11:33:41 am »
Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.
So you admit that older cars are less reliable then newer ones.  For me this is the biggest factor because any breakdowns, even not being able to start up is much more then a minor inconvenience.  I am self employed and am constantly meeting people at specific times.  Quite often those people take time off work so that they can meet me, meet at their lunch break, or its the only day off that they have, so rescheduling for a different day or time isn't an option.  If my car doesn't start, then I lose money, period.  I've owned used cars in the past and I've had them break down on me.  My past few cars have all been new cars and while I've never put more then 60,000 miles on any one of them, none of them have ever broken down on me, not once.  The worst I've had is a flat tire, which made me an hour late, but luckily the person I was meeting was able to leave the key under the mat, which is something people normally won't do.

Also, I often literally spend 8-hour days in my car driving around, so I prefer a car that is clean and quiet.  A cheap used car will likely have plenty of stains, scratches, or dents in the interior or exterior, and have plenty of sqeaks and rattles in the interior.  When I buy a new car, I know the interior is nice and clean and I don't buy a car if the interior has squeeks or rattles because it just bugs me.  Yes I'm anal and these are minor issues I could learn to live with in a used car, but I'd prefer not to.  Not to mention I like newer features like a built in MP3 player which you don't see too often on old cars.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2008, 04:42:19 pm »
Every business (self employed or not) relies on vehicles in some fashion or another, and breakdowns are a part of the business world. Replacing heavy use business vehicles every 60,000 miles in order to avoid ever even having a single repair is a bad business model.

But I am finished trying to educate here, everyone please continue telling yourselves that you NEED those new cars because the old ones break down all the time, and not because you just WANT a new car.

Man, I have no idea how all those businesses that generally run their vehicles up to 300K manage to make a profit with all those breakdowns. I am not even sure how construction workers ever get a house built or keep their job with all those beat up old pickup trucks they drive.

By the way, food for thought, lets say I offered you a deal where about once a year I would randomly call you up and delay you by an hour by talking about muffins. In exchange you would receive $4000 a year from me, tax free. Would you take that deal? Yeah, I would too. Amazing how many who think the random muffin phone call is a great deal, and then turn around and spend $4000 a year to avoid a possible small delay.

Of course a 5 year old car is 20 to 30 times more likely to break down than a new one. However it still isn't all that likely to break down, and even if it does, so what? How many thousands of dollars do you want to spend to ATTEMPT to insure that you won't be mildly, inconvenienced. The broken down on the side of the road scenario is fairly rare simply for the fact that most automotive failures present at start up and not while cruising down the highway.
So you admit that older cars are less reliable then newer ones.  For me this is the biggest factor because any breakdowns, even not being able to start up is much more then a minor inconvenience.  I am self employed and am constantly meeting people at specific times.  Quite often those people take time off work so that they can meet me, meet at their lunch break, or its the only day off that they have, so rescheduling for a different day or time isn't an option.  If my car doesn't start, then I lose money, period.  I've owned used cars in the past and I've had them break down on me.  My past few cars have all been new cars and while I've never put more then 60,000 miles on any one of them, none of them have ever broken down on me, not once.  The worst I've had is a flat tire, which made me an hour late, but luckily the person I was meeting was able to leave the key under the mat, which is something people normally won't do.

Also, I often literally spend 8-hour days in my car driving around, so I prefer a car that is clean and quiet.  A cheap used car will likely have plenty of stains, scratches, or dents in the interior or exterior, and have plenty of sqeaks and rattles in the interior.  When I buy a new car, I know the interior is nice and clean and I don't buy a car if the interior has squeeks or rattles because it just bugs me.  Yes I'm anal and these are minor issues I could learn to live with in a used car, but I'd prefer not to.  Not to mention I like newer features like a built in MP3 player which you don't see too often on old cars.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2008, 05:20:35 pm »
Because a business with only one person in the company runs exactly the same as larger business, right?  Right now work is extremely slow and losing one client is the matter of staying in business or declaring bankruptcy (and don't say the reason is because I buy new cars, $200/mo does not make or break a business), so I do everything in my power to keep them happy.  If you happen to miss a few hours of work because of car trouble, would you lose your job?  Right now that is a distinct possibility for me.

And, I don't change my car every 60,000 miles to avoid breakdowns.  My first new car I sold because I was upgrading to a much nicer car, then I "sold" the nicer car because it got totalled in an accident, so I had no choice but to get a new car.  I would of kept the nicer car indefinitely because it was by far the best car I ever owned.  I babied that car, changing the oil every 3000 miles, the interior was still like new after 3 years, and not a single scratch (until the accident of course).  Everything about the car was excellent quality, so I have no doubt that car would of lasted a very long time before needing a major repair.  But like I said, I had no choice but to get rid of it.

Also, when I went looking for my latest car, I looked at a lot of used cars and the used cars under $8,000 were pretty much all POS's falling apart with 100,000 or more miles on them.  I found a one possibly good used car that I talked the dealer down to $13,000 for the car, but decided to think about it, at which point I found out Saturn was selling cars for 0% interest and I could buy a brand new car for the same payments of the used car I almost bought.  That was definitely a horrible decision on my part, right?   ::)

And you also seem to have selective reading, because I said that buying new cars means that I'm spending more money and that there were more reasons for wanting a new car other then reliability.  Yes, I could buy a car for under $5000 that is extremely reliable, but a reliable car for that money would be a POS in every other respect.  I could also buy an old moped and save even more money, perhaps I'll do that since reliability and saving money are apparently the only things that matter.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 05:28:05 pm by AtomSmasher »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2008, 07:33:19 pm »
But I am finished trying to educate here, everyone please continue telling yourselves that you NEED those new cars because the old ones break down all the time, and not because you just WANT a new car.
You really should look better into where your costs are. If you add it all up you will see there really is not that big a cost difference between buying a new car every 4 years and driving an old car. The drop in depreciation is compensated largely by the increase in maintenance costs and the lower fuel bill for a newer car.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2008, 11:03:34 pm »
look, most people here are making valid points. atomsmasher, the one time i bought a new car was for my business. and like you say you want that extra bit of reliability (i was a courier, i especially needed that). i put 150,000km on it before i sold it (daewoo matiz, thats a lot for an 800cc car). near the end of me owning the business it started to play up. first the water pump, then the clutch. then an aircon compressor bracket. quite acceptable though for a work vehicle. if i had continued, that would have been the time to buy another car (after 3 years in this case). If you are a very well paid person of some importance to the company you might want a new car too, because you dont want to be late for meetings, appointments etc.

for all us 9-5ers, if you are late every now and then for work because of a car break down, thats quite acceptable. if the boss were to fire you for that, who wanted to work for an a-hole like that anyway?

patrickl, i still dont follow your maths. especially with the luxurious position of replacing new cars every 4 years. lets break it down over four years first (ball park figures to get a handle on whats happening) in dollars. the cars in this case are similar in fuel consumption so we need only look at extra costs:

                            new car                                 old car
                            mid sized   small                    mid sized   small

year one              30,000       15000                  5000         2,500
year two                       0               0                    500            500
year three                    0                0                    500            500
year four                  500             500                 1000            500

total                     30500         15500                 7000         4,000

thats the kinda 30% id like my shares to earn  ;D

ok, now to year five

first we sell our cars. this is what we get for them:

                          new car                                   old car
sell                      15000     7000                        2500          1000

so this is what we have left after four years. in four years we have spent 15500/8500 on a new car, and 4500/3000 for an old car. now to buy another car

year five              35000    17000                       7000           4000

using the money from the previous sale, we have spent another 20k/10k on the new, and another 4.5k/3k on the old. the total spent so far by year 5 in this simpistic model is pretty much the bottom line- new 35000/17000, old 7000/4000. 

a pretty simple example i must admit. it doesnt include the fact that your old car might suffer such expensive wear (like replacing an engine) that you are better off just buying another car. therefore just double the price on the bottom line for old cars from 7000/4000 to 14000/8000. thats still less than half what you spent on the new car.

 thats one extreme, the other is what my dad used to do. he would buy really beat up old cars (even from the wreckers, and at least once was given a car) and drive them for a year or two (and fixing them with parts scavenged/wreckers) before buying another one. make that bottom line $500 x 5 years/$400 x 5 years= $2500/$2000! following his lead,my first car was $150, spent maybe $200 getting it on the road, and then sold it for $800 a couple of years later  ;D a cortina mkII. sigh, the memories...

and yes, you can get mid sized cars for 20k or so. the quality will be a little less, and more chance of things going wrong

year one    20000
year two            0
year three         0
year four      1000

year five sell, get 10000

buy new car 22000. only if you compare a new small car to an old large car will the figure get closer, in my opinion...

this is an economic reason only. yes, it is freakin cool buying a new car and being the first to own it, and having smell new for several years (several months in the case of a couriers car  ;) ). but for some of us, its even more cool to have an extra 10 or 20 grand to play with in 5 years. not many of us (including me until the last couple of years) will be able to show you 20 grand after 5 years, but it would have meant a lot more comfort and the ability to buy other new things! even i wouldnt buy something like a TV or console second hand if i can get it new. hell, i even spent $90 on a sega genesis lately because it was brand new!

edit: when i say economic reason, obviously im talking about personal economics. on the national or global scale, people need to buy new cars to keep the economy going.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 01:35:56 am by danny_galaga »


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2008, 02:25:14 am »
You need to look at all costs and use realistic values.

Buying a new Honda civic and driving it for 4 years, costs me 600 euro a month (everything included for 15,000km a year). An old car (from it's 5th till 9th year) costs between 400 and 500 a month. Driving an even older car is a crap shoot. It could cost between 300 and 2,000 euro a month.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2008, 03:34:19 am »
You need to look at all costs and use realistic values.

Buying a new Honda civic and driving it for 4 years, costs me 600 euro a month (everything included for 15,000km a year). An old car (from it's 5th till 9th year) costs between 400 and 500 a month. Driving an even older car is a crap shoot. It could cost between 300 and 2,000 euro a month.

holy crap! thats $48000! i could just buy a 10 grand car and each year just leave it by the side of the road and buy another 10 grand car and id still be ahead! you better stop with the figures, my case is getting stronger  ;)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2008, 04:34:14 am »
Ehm, you really need to check your math. 600*48=48,000?

Buy two 10 grand cars and they will cost you a whole lot more than 28,800 over 4 years if you drive 15,000km a year (with either car)

All costs includes not just depreciation. besides depreciation you need to add insurance, fuel, maintenance, road taxes and some even add even interest lost on the initial purchase amount (if you didn;t need to borrow the money already, because then you need to add teh interest on the loan of course).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 04:37:05 am by patrickl »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2008, 04:55:15 am »


28,800 euro = $48,000  ;)


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2008, 11:03:06 am »
Well, I bought my Civic brand new in the fall of 2003 for less than $20,000 and plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore.  I'm of the philosophy that the only reason to buy a car is that you need to, not because you want to.  So my Civic will probably last me another five or six years before I start thinking about getting a new one.  I'd say my money was very well spent.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2008, 11:48:43 am »
One minor comment.

If your business is so close to the edge that being late for a single customer could put you under, could it possibly be because your expenses are so high?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2008, 12:20:48 pm »
One minor comment.

If your business is so close to the edge that being late for a single customer could put you under, could it possibly be because your expenses are so high?
My business expenses are next to nothing, and as I said, the $200/month to pay for the car will not make or break a business.  Besides, my last car was a gas guzzler, so I know if I bought an old gas guzzler for really cheap, I would have to spend $100-$150 more on gas each month, which means I'm actually only paying $50-100 more a month then buying an old gas guzzler, and thats not including the $500 or whatever a year for repairs.

Also, Missing a single appointment will not put me under on its own, but if a client gets upset and decides to use someone else who always makes the appointments, then I lose all of the business I would of gotten from them, and that most likely would put me under.  Work is slow for everyone in my field right now and theres no shortage of competition, so keeping my clients happy is my #1 goal.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2008, 02:04:44 pm »
TransAm - hehe, used to have a Bandit edition, but this is a newer model. I get 25 mpg highway, and 10 mpg when I stomp on it. So... about 10 mpg...

 ;D

I just gave my old '79 Trans-Am to the mechanic that works on my cars.  It was a 6.6L, think it got about 6 gallons per mile. ;)

My 96 explorer averages 18 hwy, my wifes 03 Escape averages 22 hwy.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #122 on: April 28, 2008, 02:26:10 pm »
This will probably have to be my last post on this subject, because I don't have time to write a dissertation on the false economies of driving old cars.

I agree that buying a new car just to save gas mileage is pretty narrow-minded, but if someone is going to buy a new car, they should seriously consider getting one that gets excellent mileage.

Driving a beater is acceptable for a teenage boy, even a student or young person with very little responsibilities and a a job that isn't demanding, and nothing better to do than spend a weekend working on a broken down car.  If someone can't afford a new car or can't get credit, then perhaps they have no choice but to drive an old car.  That doesn't mean they should keep driving old cars if they had a little more money/credit.

But for most of the working population, a dependable car is a must. Bad scenarios we want to avoid:

1) Broken down in the rain or snow
2) Broken down with children/infants in the car
3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed
4) Broken down in bad part of town
5) Broken down and missing/being late for a job interview
6) Broken down and missing a class test
7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car
8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.

If I missed (or was late for) a job interview, that would likely cost me the job.  That could be worth $25k+/yr.  Not worth gambling to try to save $1000/yr, and risk a problem like that.

In the past 5 years, I've been stranded 3 times at VERY bad times off the top of my head.  Now I have a baby, and that makes undesirable situations even more important to avoid.

Wade, the sheer fact that you are discussing a monthly payment as is that was an important number shows me that you really don't have a handle on automotive costs. And for the record, ALL cars need maintenance.

I have a pretty good handle on automotive costs.  And older cars require significantly more cost to keep them running.

I've driven a lot of older cars, and after years of hidden costs and unexpected work/life interruptions, I've come to realize that a few thousand dollars a year is WELL worth removing that wasted time/effort/worry from my life.

Monthly payment *is* an important number.  When a payment is < $200/month, it isn't too difficult for a used car to meet or exceed that cost.  Then the argument for driving beater cars really holds no water at all, since the ONLY positive argument for old cars is they "can" cost less.

Quote
I have been driving about 16 years, 12 of those years I drove sub $2000 clunkers. My TOTAL in repair bills from 1993 to 2007 is LESS than the $2400 you'd make in payments on that hybrid in one year, and that was if you somehow got a $22000 hybrid with $500 down for 5 years down to $200 a month, my loan calculator says that would be $428 a month. Since I am assuming that is impossible I will start talking about a new standard civic instead.

Lucky you, having less than $2400 in repairs in 14 years of driving beaters.  You're HIGHLY unusual in that respect.  I spent more than that in just a couple of years of driving old cars.  I've spent enough money over the course of driving a lot of old cars for about 10 years, that I could have bought a brand new car.

I don't have a $22k hybrid, I bought a 2008 4-door Yaris with a sticker of $14.5k.  Happily gave them my 98 Camry beater in trade and took a loan for the $10k.  I would say that just about anyone with some motivation or a trade could get the same price, or near it.

My only regret is not buying it sooner!

Quote
10,000 miles per year on a V8 getting 18 MPG at $3.50 a gallon costs a person $1944 a year.
10,000 miles a year on a standard 2008 Honda civic (29 mpg, which is really pitiful if you ask me) at $3.50 a gallon costs $1206 a year.
So in theory you save yourself $744 a year here, oh wait, how much extra is that full coverage insurance on that car you are financing? Better add in $500 extra a year for that.

1) Most V8's are getting far worse than 18 MPG in mixed/city.  Especially older cars.
2) Full coverage insurance on my Yaris (versus liability only before) caused my insurance to go up only $200/year. If I had full coverage on my previous car the cost difference would be significantly less than the $200, obviously.

Quote
Now you are saving $244 a year. Ooh, what about property taxes on that brand new car, there goes an amount of money that is going to vary from $0 in some places up to about $900. We will assume your rates are on the lower end and merely eat up that $244.

Property tax was required on every vehicle I've owned, new or used.  Given the value of this car, I'd expect it to rise by no more than $200.

Quote
Wow, now you have broken even.
Wait, there is more, there is about $1200 in sales tax to pay on that car. We will split that over 5 years to be nice. $240 cost per year.

Sales tax was included in the purchase price and $10k financed.

Quote
Wait, there is more, to the tune of $600 a year in interest (averaged over 5 years and assuming you have good credit).

Interest is included in the < $200/month payment.

The argument to drive an old car to save money doesn't hold water... unless the person has particularly bad luck with new cars and superb luck with old cars, doesn't value his time at all, likes to work on cars, doesn't mind being stranded in bad weather/bad neighborhood/with work attire, has a job where absense is expected, has no family obligations or other responsibilities, doesn't attend school, and has no aspirations for getting a better job.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #123 on: April 28, 2008, 02:31:47 pm »
If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 :laugh2:

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

Practically everyone I know drives new cars for 5-7 years, and in that period, it's rare that any work needs to be done aside from oil changes and a set of tires.  If you think an 8 year old car will require less work over the same 5-10 year period versus the new car, you're fooling yourself (and only yourself).

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #124 on: April 28, 2008, 02:41:07 pm »
Insurance matters because no one with two brain cells to rub together has full coverage insurance on a car worth less than 5 or 6 grand. The comprehensive and collision doubles your insurance rates at a bare minimum.

Full coverage doesn't always cost a lot more.  We went from 3 liability only vehicles to 1 liability only vehicle and 2 NEW vehicles, both with full coverage, and it only costs about $35/month more.  In fact, I've been considering picking full coverage back up on the RX-7, just for peace of mind.


Insurance for my wife and I together:

LIABILITY ONLY: 98 Camry, 90 Olds cutlass, 94 RX-7:
$900/yr

LIABILITY ONLY: 98 Camry, 94 RX-7
FULL COVERAGE: : 07 Odyssey
$1100/yr

LIABILITY ONLY: 94 RX-7
FULL COVERAGE: : 07 Odyssey, 08 Yaris
$1300/yr

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 03:13:20 pm by Wade »

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2008, 03:06:49 pm »
Good posts Wade 8)
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2008, 06:27:42 pm »
Wade, my calculations at no point includes the substantial purchase price of the vehicle, therefor the interest and sales tax do indeed count. I was ONLY keeping track of the additional premium it costs a person to drive a new car. Toss that purchase price into the mix and it gets far worse.


Also, here are some solutions.

1) Broken down in the rain or snow

Call a taxi.

2) Broken down with children/infants in the car

Call a taxi, you are going to be far more stressed about this than the kids will be. They will probably be excited to ride the taxi. Contrary to popular wisdom children do not die or explode when cars break down and they can get wet without melting. You could send those kids to college with the money you save trying to insure they don't spend 20 minutes delayed in a breakdown.


3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed.

Call a taxi. I know from experience people delay "important" work and business meetings all the time for things far more mundane than an auto breakdown.


4) Broken down in bad part of town

Call a taxi, and consider avoiding the bad part of town. Also, I'd rather be in a hoopty in the bad part of town than something nice that will get stolen.

5) Broken down and missing/being late for a job interview

Call a taxi.

6) Broken down and missing a class test

Call a taxi.

7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car.

How you do repairs is up to you, you can have the shop do everything or do it yourself and save more money, it is up to you.


8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.

Call a taxi, arrange everything else later. I don't know about you, but I still go to work when I have an automotive problem.


The vast majority of the above 8 mentioned are based on delays, which are far more likely from traffic jams and general lateness than they are from auto breakdowns. And the vast majority of auto breakdowns go a whole lot smoother if you just CALL a TAXI to get yourself to your destination right away and then come back and deal with the problem later. Waiting for your uncle Denny to crawl out of bed, get dressed and drive over from Ballwin to come pick you up isn't the way to deal with it, even though it feels cheaper and that is what most people seem to do.

When it all comes down to it a whole lot of people can't even handle their finances well enough to have enough money on hand to pay for a taxi, tow, and repair. They just live paycheck to paycheck regardless of income or expense and have an emergency every single time they have an extra expense. Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 06:30:22 pm by paigeoliver »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2008, 08:17:00 pm »
Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.
$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2008, 09:20:02 pm »
Wade, my calculations at no point includes the substantial purchase price of the vehicle, therefor the interest and sales tax do indeed count. I was ONLY keeping track of the additional premium it costs a person to drive a new car. Toss that purchase price into the mix and it gets far worse.

There is no interest or sales tax without the purchase price, so you are including the purchase price into the calcs whether you think so or not.

Quote
Also, here are some solutions.
...
Call a taxi for every situation...

1) I don't have a cell phone, they don't work in a lot of areas around here anyway, and a pay phone might not be nearby (especially so, these days).  How do you propose calling that taxi?  Yelling loudly?  So figure an extra $50/month for the cell phone used to bail out the person who drives the old car.

2) Taxis can take far too long to show up

3) Taxis are quite expensive around here.  If I'm not right in town or nearby home when the breakdown happens (which was the case for all 3 of my recent breakdowns), the taxi alone would be $50-150.  Towing/trailering the dead car would have been several hundred.

Quote
...
Call a taxi, you are going to be far more stressed about this than the kids will be. They will probably be excited to ride the taxi. Contrary to popular wisdom children do not die or explode when cars break down and they can get wet without melting. You could send those kids to college with the money you save trying to insure they don't spend 20 minutes delayed in a breakdown.

Until you have children and other responsibilities, I can rightfully dismiss any of your opinions about how to treat them.

Not only is it unsafe, it is illegal to take children in a car without a proper car seat.  While most car seats can be moved pretty easily, the Taxi might not have the needed belts or tie hooks.  If the weather is bad, I sure as hell don't want to risk getting a child sick, just to save $50-100/month driving the used car.

Quote
3) Broken down with an important work meeting being missed/delayed.

Call a taxi. I know from experience people delay "important" work and business meetings all the time for things far more mundane than an auto breakdown.

Just because there are people with "important" work they blow off, (like driving an old car) it doesn't mean it's a good idea and won't hurt their career.  Again, what about the job interview that would result in $25k/year more?  I work at a hospital, which is loaded with people who have jobs where people's lives rest in their hands.  Many of these people need to be available reliably.

Quote
4) Broken down in bad part of town

Call a taxi, and consider avoiding the bad part of town. Also, I'd rather be in a hoopty in the bad part of town than something nice that will get stolen.

You'd rather drive through a bad part of town in a less reliable vehicle?  Makes no sense.

Quote
7) Broken down, and spending a whole weekend (+$$$ parts cost) working on the car.

How you do repairs is up to you, you can have the shop do everything or do it yourself and save more money, it is up to you.

If a person is going to stand a chance at making an old car more cost effective than a new car, he's going to have to work on it himself or have someone else work on it very cheaply.

Quote
8 ) Broken down, missing a full day of work to deal with getting the car towed, getting to the shop, etc.
Call a taxi, arrange everything else later. I don't know about you, but I still go to work when I have an automotive problem.

That depends on where and how the car broke down.  Leaving a broken down car overnight will result it it being towed to a yard many miles away, where they have the right to keep the vehicle unless you pay their ridiculous tow bill.  (My brother was taken on this ride once when his car broke down).  It could be unsafe to leave a car in a certain spot, not only for other drivers but to avoid damage to your own car.

Quote
The vast majority of the above 8 mentioned are based on delays, which are far more likely from traffic jams and

Goes back to whether your time is worth anything or not.  A delay or missed day of work is worth $300-500 to a lot of people.

Quote
general lateness than they are from auto breakdowns. And the vast majority of auto breakdowns go a whole lot smoother if you just CALL a TAXI to get yourself to your destination right away and then come back and deal with the problem later. Waiting for your uncle Denny to crawl out of bed, get dressed and drive over from Ballwin to come pick you up isn't the way to deal with it, even though it feels cheaper and that is what most people seem to do.

You seem to have "handling a breakdown" down to a science.  How did you get so good at that? :)


Quote
When it all comes down to it a whole lot of people can't even handle their finances well enough to have enough money on hand to pay for a taxi, tow, and repair. They just live paycheck to paycheck regardless of income or expense and have an emergency every single time they have an extra expense. Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.

You're right, a lot of people can't handle their finances, and driving a beater is IMO one of the sure ways to become one of those people.

Your $6000/yr figure is WAY off.

Wade

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2008, 09:31:41 pm »
I must wonder what sort of new car you are buying for $12000? A low end Hyundai? If that is the case a new one is $12000 and the dealer will give you $2500 for your 5 year old one.

Just about every financial pundit out there recommends buying new cars, and plenty of them suggest buying them at an age of 8 years old or more.

Also, when you buy very used you aren't stuck with the base model. If I need a car and have $3000 I COULD put it towards the cheapest flimsobox compact out there and be paying for it for the next 5 years. I could buy a 5 year old example of that same flimsobox and own it outright. I could take advantage of the fact that american cars are the biggest bargains on the used market and buy a very nice 5 year old Taurus. Or I could go a bit extreme and spend $1000 (done it multiple times) and put the other $2000 in the bank.

I am a very big fan of cars in the 15-20 age range because they have depreciated to being nearly worthless, yet you can find some in really fantastic condition with low mileage for almost no money. And the repair costs for those models is usually quite low (lots of parts suppliers competing drives the prices down).

And cars in that age range no longer depreciate due to age, in fact you can often drive them for years and put a bunch of miles on them and then sell them for the same thing you paid for them, sometimes more (if the model has a following a well kept example will appreciate slightly over time, not investment grade money, but it is money).



Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.
$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2008, 09:36:46 pm »
Thus they will spend $6000 extra a year to drive new, ignoring the fact that it is almost impossible to rack up $6000 a year in repairs year after year.
$6000 a year extra? Either they need to be buying a new car every year or they are driving something seriously expensive. Either way it's not an applicable example.

If someone drives a $12,000 car the depreciation would be about half of the original price over 4 or 5 years. So the cost would be $6,000 over the full period. It's pretty easy to rack up a $1,500 repair bill on an old junker every year. Or even worse, end up with a lemon that breaks down completely (or has a higher repair bill than it's value) in a year or two.

Again, the only way this comes out even reasonably favorably is if you get your repairs practically for free and if you don't account for your own time that you need to put in to keep the junker driving.

Even then, the difference will be at best $50 to $100 a month. Are you seriously claiming that an extra payment of $50 to $100 a month isn't worth much better reliability, hugely improved safety, a much better driving experience and several days a year that you are free (because you don't have to work on a broken down car or that you need to take days of off work because your car died)?

I strongly agree with the above.

Paige thinks it's worthwhile for a person to put his job, career path, reputation, family, children, safety, convenience, education, and finances at risk, in order to save perhaps $100/month.  That makes no sense whatsoever to me, but to him, it apparently makes sense and is perfectly justified.  To a person who has few of those things, I can see how the need for a dependable vehicle is less important, but to think everyone is in that same boat is pretty, well... foolish.

Some people can't see a good decision when it's right in front of them.  That's a problem that plagues a lot of people, and explains why they can never seem to get anywhere.

Typical example is people who think going to college is a waste of time, and that they will do just as well without a degree. (If someone wants to argue about that, please start a new thread.) ;)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2008, 09:45:06 pm »
I must wonder what sort of new car you are buying for $12000? A low end Hyundai? If that is the case a new one is $12000 and the dealer will give you $2500 for your 5 year old one.

Have you even looked at new cars?  There's a gob of choices in the $10000-15000 sticker price, which can usually be talked down several thousand.  Toyota alone has 2 Yaris models, the Corolla (loaded, for $14.5k before negotiation), plus all those Scion models.  Hyundai, Kia, Suzuki, Daewoo have a bunch of cars in that price range as well.  Honda has a couple, I'm sure many of the domestic brands have many too (I've seen ads recently for Ford Focus for $11k new, before negotiation, Chevy Aveo for $10k, Cobalts for $12k).

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2008, 09:53:58 pm »
Wade, children can ride in taxis and other public transportation without car seats, and it is not particularly unsafe. Different rules apply to vehicles for hire than for private vehicles. They are safer in the back of that full sized steel taxi without a car seat than they are in an econobox with one. Nobody even had child seats a few decades ago, and we all somehow made it. Ever notice the school buses your kids ride on? They don't even have seat belts.

My prepaid cell phone costs me about $8 a month. Last time I called someone because I was broken down on the side of the road? Never, because the last time it happened was in 1998, and that was before cell phones were so universal.

A $50 taxi could indeed be pricey, last time I had to call one because I was broken down on the side of the road? Never. Last time I called a taxi at all? 1996 when i was in the army and my car wasn't in the same city as me.

Also, if you wade through those german ADAC breakdown statistics you will find that even pretty old cars only suffer about 50-80 annual roadside breakdowns per THOUSAND vehicles. That means YEARS between those incidents, which has certainly been my experience.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2008, 09:57:48 pm »
It isn't a $100 a month difference, you are simply telling yourself it is a $100 a month difference. If it was actually just a $100 a month difference then everyone on earth would buy brand new cars, drive them 5 years and then dumpster them. I'd drive a new car too if the difference was $1200 a year (still note, that talking in terms of monthly payments shows a lack of wisdom in the areas of finance, it isn't what the item costs you per month, it is what the item costs you).

I do admit that I am not totally up on current pricing, only new car I priced recently was the new Rabbit, I saw the price but thought the car was dog ugly.

I do find it amusing that not purchasing a new car shows that the person makes bad decisions and will never get anywhere in life. I find that quite amusing indeed.

This has gotten far off the original topic of fuel economy though, and that is partially my fault. I can't convince anyone of anything when their position is based on fear, so I am really going to try to be finished with this thread.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 10:09:05 pm by paigeoliver »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2008, 10:40:24 pm »
Wade, children can ride in taxis and other public transportation without car seats, and it is not particularly unsafe. Different rules apply to vehicles for hire than for private vehicles. They are safer in the back of that full sized steel taxi without a car seat than they are in an econobox with one. Nobody even had child seats a few decades ago, and we all somehow made it. Ever notice the school buses your kids ride on? They don't even have seat belts.

That's a completely ridiculous statement.  What planet are you from? Do you think child seats are required by law for an economic reason?  Just so "the man" can force people to buy car seats and spur the economy?  There is little debate about the safety improvements from car seats, maybe some debate about which types are most effective.  Cars didn't have ABS or airbags 30 years ago either, so do you think those items are useless and don't add safety?  Cars didn't use to have seat belts or tempered glass.  Now those are standard for a reason, heck even airbags are required in the front of new vehicles now, and will probably be required in the sides within a few years.

Our school buses have seatbelts and video cameras.  A bus also is far massive than a regular vehicle, and the belts are not as important.

Quote
My prepaid cell phone costs me about $8 a month.

The most reasonable number you've posted in a while.  True, I could get a prepaid cell phone and only use it for breakdowns, and it wouldn't cost much (in phone charges).

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2008, 11:06:22 pm »
It isn't a $100 a month difference, you are simply telling yourself it is a $100 a month difference. If it was actually just a $100 a month difference then everyone on earth would buy brand new cars, drive them 5 years and then dumpster them.

It really is closer to $100/month, even if reliability is unimportant to you or your time is worthless (which it isn't, for most of us).

Plain and simple... new $12k car, driven for 5 years... still has about half the value left after that 5 years... so it cost around $6k for 5 years.  That's about $1200/yr compared to someone buying the SAME car, 5 years old for 6k.  The difference is the person who bought the car new got the BEST years out of the car, for about $100/month.  The person buying it used is only getting the bad end of the deal, as the maintenance costs will be far higher than those first 5 years.  I've already shown that the insurance difference is extremely small.  Tires and oil will be constant, or will be worse for the worn, older car.  How can you not see the economy in this?

I've spent more than $100/month in maintenance/repairs on my old cars for many years.  I was tired of messing with it and not saving any money.

Some people can't spare $100/month, have bad credit, or don't realize the cost difference is so small.  That is why people buy beaters.

Quote
I'd drive a new car too if the difference was $1200 a year (still note, that talking in terms of monthly payments shows a lack of wisdom in the areas of finance, it isn't what the item costs you per month, it is what the item costs you).

Quite the contrary.  It's the return that matters.  Sometimes paying interest or payments is the smart financial move.  My time and money is better spent on things other than missed work and missed meetings, and repairs on old cars.  What are your financial credentials?  You can back up your expertise with a huge portfolio, I suppose?

Quote
I do admit that I am not totally up on current pricing, only new car I priced recently was the new Rabbit, I saw the price but thought the car was dog ugly.

I do find it amusing that not purchasing a new car shows that the person makes bad decisions and will never get anywhere in life. I find that quite amusing indeed.

Not buying a new car doesn't put someone in that category.  But many people consistently make bad decisions.  Quite often, those are the people who don't have the option to buy a new car.

Quote
This has gotten far off the original topic of fuel economy though, and that is partially my fault. I can't convince anyone of anything when their position is based on fear, so I am really going to try to be finished with this thread.

For me personally, it's based less on fear, and more on common sense.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2008, 11:53:37 pm »
Hell, if I had to live in a big city such as NY or Chicago, I wouldn't even own a car!  (And with where work takes me, I may wind up living in the city).  I would love to be able to survive without a car at all.  Then gas prices wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  Sadly, here in SE Connecticut, you can't survive without a car so I just have to make do with what I have.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2008, 01:49:07 am »

You're right, a lot of people can't handle their finances, and driving a beater is IMO one of the sure ways to become one of those people.


that is a ridiculous statement and i find it offensive. i personally find that many people who aren't good with their finances are that way because they are paying too much for a loan- a loan for a new car. it's just transport people. except for the thing about the baby seats, i'm absolutely with paige. all i'm saying is that it is a lot cheaper to own a secondhand car, if you have some sense about you when buying and know how to drive (for instance, not start it in gear and instantly drive off. that is a lot of wear to the engine). maybe dont redline it through every gear. check the oil and water more than once a year. i think paige said it, but i'll repeat it- if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?

paiges muffin break analogy is brilliant, and if you answer honestly would sort out whether you really need a new car for financial reasons. who wouldn't put up with a random delaying 1 hour phone call if you were given $4000 for it?

there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #138 on: April 29, 2008, 03:22:45 am »
if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?
For instance because:
- $100 a month is still a lot for some people
- they don't really need the car anyway so it doesn't matter if it breaks down now and then
- they don't really drive the car (obviously if you don't drive it, on the total budget, having a new car becomes a hell of a lot more expensive than an old car)
- they don't have the money to buy a new car and cannot borrow the money for it either
- they don't do the math and only look at the depreciation and don't see that the extra cost in maintenance
- they don't realize that their old car actually costs as much as it does whereas. for a new car the monthly costs are known upfront
- they can fix their car themselves with scrapyard parts and don't account for the work they have to put in themselves
- they are new (or bad) drivers and the insurance premiums would be huge on a new car

The fact that you "beater guys" are so shocked that the difference is only $100 really means you never took the time to look at your driving budget.

Depreciation on the $12,000 car is? On average $125 a month. Now is it that unlikely that, on an old junker, you have at least an extra $300 a year in repair bills per year? Try to look at averages too. That $1000 bill in one year averages to $250 over 4 years already. Besides an old beater has depreciation too, buy it at $2000 and you get $50 back from the scrapheap after 4 years, so you lose $40 a month there too.

On a $12,500 new car you will have at best a $50 a month price advantage by driving an old junker and I seriously doubt it's even that much. On a $16000 car it's going to be something like $100 at best.

Seriously, do the math. Put your depreciation, the insurance, the gas bill, taxes, interests and all the costs (taxi bills, tow bills) that you can think off and you will find that you spend a whole lot more than you thought you did. You are really not going to save more than 30% of your budget by driving an old junker (or pay 40% more if you drive new instead of a junker).

It's just a crapshoot too. The old junker might break down soon after you buy it. In college and the university I had plenty of friends with cars that broke down and they couldn't afford the bill or the car simply wasn't worth it anymore. My brother bought a $2000 junker and after a year the engine died. That's a higher depreciation than on a new car. I was reasonably lucky with my old junkers, but I still spend a lot of money keeping them running and spend way to much time by the roadside or with the bonnet open trying to coerce the car into starting or to continue running.

Quote
there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?
Are you even reading what Wade and I say? No one has said that a new car is cheaper. Only that the premium is rather small to have all the advantages that a new car gives.

The best cheap alternative is a young second hand car (4 to 5 years old). Still in pretty good shape and at practically the same cost as an old junker. You save some money on the depreciation and you don't lose so much on the maintenance as on an old junker. Of course this again only works if you are able to fork over $6000 to $8000 for a car and if you really drive the car a lot. Or something in between is to drive the new car for 10 years.

BTW try to think of the following conditions too:
- the car actually gets driven
- people who drive new are not going to be willing or able to repair their own car
- people with kids really have to minimize breakdowns (if I have to pick my kid up from school I really cannot use the car breaking down)
- self employed people or the ones with a job, lose money or free days (which equals money) when their car breaks down. My hourly wage is higher than the price difference on driving an old car

Also, if you wade through those german ADAC breakdown statistics you will find that even pretty old cars only suffer about 50-80 annual roadside breakdowns per THOUSAND vehicles.
That's for 5 year old cars. Not for old beaters.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 03:35:55 am by patrickl »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #139 on: April 29, 2008, 05:43:46 am »


none of that changes my simple assertion that a second hand car is a LOT less expensive than a new car, even considering ALL possible running costs for both (i am not shocked the difference is $100/month because i assert that simply isnt normally the case).

 we may be arguing at cross-purposes here. i conceed that i dont know what the costs are for older cars in holland. it could very well be like in japan where i have heard that as the car gets older (past 5 years? or 50000km or something like that) the registration costs go up dramatically. very obviously an older car in japan really would cost more than a new one then.

i can only talk of prices in australia. i have also owned a car in canada and ipso facto, since the americans are not ones to be outdone i believe i have a fair idea about the US too. i can quite confidently use my car as an example since it is real. it cost me $2500. has cost an extra $300 or so a year in repairs so far. if i had to buy a whole new engine for it each year it would cost me an extra $1500 or so per year. only then might it compare in price to a new car. that would be $6000 spent in 4 years. i could sell the car for about $2500 again (its old enough that price doesnt go down). the new small car might be $15000, sell for $7500 thus $7500 spent in the same time. if i had to buy a new engine every year, i might consider a new car  ;D

not a perfect example because my car isnt as fuel efficient as a modern 4 cylinder car. if i didnt buy a vw, i probably would have bought a late 70's early 80's toyota corolla. that would have used less fuel. similar costs to what ive just mentioned, less fuel.

an even easier example to grasp (unless like i say it costs more where you live to register an older car) is the fact that as you say, after 4 or 5 years whatever car youve bought will have depreciated by 50%. so 30k has turned into 15k. if someone were to buy that (now) second hand car, i cant see that it would cost another 15k to maintain for another 4 or 5 years. in fact, most cars are good for about 10 years. which is what jdurg is aiming at, which i think is reasonable since the total costs would more closely match that of having bought a second hand car...

what you can get in australia:

obviously shopping around would net better prices and lower kms. this is the first useful site i looked at.

toyota- $2500 to $5000

i would pick the starlets out of these

toyota- $5000 to $10000

later model corollas and camrys would be a good buy

all makes and models- $2500 to $10000

the '97 saab at the bottom for a bit of class. the $2700 ford fairmont near the top if you do what paige was saying and have a spare car  :) the mercedes 190e for $5990 looks like a fair deal

a couple of new cars (too many to have a useful list)

toyota yaris $15190

toyota camry $29,500

they happen to be quite close in price to my ball park figures! there are of course cheaper and more expensive brands. i picked toyota because everyone agrees they arent a bad make and tend to hold their value well (compared to others)

for registration purposes, the only thing they look at in australia, canada and the US is the type of car (sports, truck sedan etc) size of engine and number of cylinders/rotors. the age is irrelevant. how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #140 on: April 29, 2008, 06:04:53 am »
Taxis, public transport and "for hire" vehicles are generally exempt from child safety seat rules. I do think that kids should have them, however a single (or even multiple) incident in riding in a taxi without them is less dangerous to your child than ANY time they EVER play sports.

The missouri laws have this little bit in them,

"The act does not apply to public carriers for hire or to students four years of age or older who are passengers on a school bus designed for carrying eleven passengers or more and which is manufactured or equipped pursuant to Missouri Minimum Standards for School Buses (Sections 307.178 and 307.182)."

And basically every state and country has the same little rider to their child seat laws. Another common exemption is that if you have more kids than official seating positions then you can just pile them all in the backseat willy nilly, the same way everyone used to do it back in the old days.

Also, school buses shouldn't have seat belts. Only a few kids die annually in school bus crashes, so few in fact that adding seat belts would actually increase that number (it is very hard to make a number like 3 go down, but one school bus on fire that had seat belts, or a couple chokings, or a beating to death with the buckle would certainly make the number go up).
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #141 on: April 29, 2008, 06:15:20 am »
I actually got excited when I thought you had a link to a $2700 Fairmont and then realized that a Fairmont is a modern Taurus in Australia. We used to have a Fairmont in the late 70s/early 80s and I have always wanted one (specifically a Mint Green Futura model with a white vinyl top and a white vinyl interior like this girl I went to high school with had), and a $2700 one would look like it was fresh from the showroom (I have seen a couple immaculate ultra-low mileage American Fairmonts on ebay in the past and they only fetched around that price.

Here is one that didn't meet reserve on ebay, wrong color scheme and missing the vinyl top, but you couldn't ask for better condition that this one.

ebay Link shortened by saint



That Fairmont/Taurus is actually bringing a premium because it can run on propane (which is apparently cheaper than gas these days, at least that is what the ad says). That same money (here at least) would get you a 2002 model with fairly low mileage. Tauruses are an amazing buy used. If I just wanted vanilla transportation I'd drop 3K on a 5-6 year old Taurus in a heartbeat. And since they devalue so early you could actually do really well buying Tauruses with 70K on them for $3000, driving them up to about 100K and then reselling them for $2000. Most of them would probably make it without ever seeing a repair shop for anything other than maintenance.

On the cheap Toyota list I would probably pick the 1981 TOYOTA CROWN MS112. It looks like a nice car, seems classy, and I know that most of that $5K I spent would still be there for me when I went to sell it, as long as I kept it up.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 04:09:20 pm by saint »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2008, 06:40:26 am »
how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...
I was talking more about US prices. Cars (and thus insurance) and gas are bout twice as expensive in the Netherlands. Overall it doesn't matter for the budget though. the difference between new and junker is still 30%.

Sure if you drive a 50,000 car the absolute difference will be greater, but for a car of normal price in the US the monthy cost difference will be between $50 and $100.

Besides, I'm talking about average cars and cars that are actually being driven. So not the one bizarre case that never breaks down in 200K miles. If you use your bike or scooter and not your car then sure you car will not break down. If you use your car every day and drive an normal average of kilometers/miles per year you will have break downs and high maintenance costs on the old junker (if not total loss due to catastrophic failure)
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2008, 06:44:23 am »

fairmonts and falcons in australia have a roughly similar spec to the american models. but designed here. they only came in straight 6 and V8, thus a bit bigger than the taurus which i dont believe sold here...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2008, 07:07:47 am »
how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...
I was talking more about US prices. Cars (and thus insurance) and gas are bout twice as expensive in the Netherlands. Overall it doesn't matter for the budget though. the difference between new and junker is still 30%.

Sure if you drive a 50,000 car the absolute difference will be greater, but for a car of normal price in the US the monthy cost difference will be between $50 and $100.

Besides, I'm talking about average cars and cars that are actually being driven. So not the one bizarre case that never breaks down in 200K miles. If you use your bike or scooter and not your car then sure you car will not break down. If you use your car every day and drive an normal average of kilometers/miles per year you will have break downs and high maintenance costs on the old junker (if not total loss due to catastrophic failure)

for my car 'the master' i drove it every day to work for the first two years. half an hour each way. i also took it on several mini road trips where i drove all day and into the evening. until this year, when i started riding my bike to work (takes the same amount of time!) this was not a car that just sits in a garage getting polished. many, many people drive second hand cars to work every day with little hassle. most of my work colleagues drive second hand cars, and amazingly, make it to work on time 99.99% of the time. you better hope this is the case, if second hand cars were as unreliable as you and wade make out, you wont be able to GIVE your car away after your 4 years is up ;)

honestly, can you not see that this is the case? from a pure argument by selected instance, i can report that it seems to me those friends that drive second car they paid for in cash are always financially better off than those friends who have got a loan for a new car...

i think you and wade are dazzling yourselves with this 'pay this much a month' thing. draw a giant 20000 on  a large piece of cardboard. now tear it into pieces. reassemble. it still says 20000 doesnt it? if those tears represented a loan, then more pieces will magically appear. it will be even more than 20000. tearing up the figure into monthly amounts wont make it less in the end, and will probably make it more

but lets talk your language then. lets take my car as an example again. imagine i will sell it after 4 years. 2500 plus 2000 for repairs. 4500 (2,697.45 EUR  ;)) divide by 48= 93.75 a month. ok, new small car 15000. divide by 48= 312.50. so, where is this 30% of which you speak?


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #145 on: April 29, 2008, 07:29:08 am »
but lets talk your language then. lets take my car as an example again. imagine i will sell it after 4 years. 2500 plus 2000 for repairs. 4500 (2,697.45 EUR  ;)) divide by 48= 93.75 a month. ok, new small car 15000. divide by 48= 312.50. so, where is this 30% of which you speak?
Mostly in the fact that you forget to add all the other costs like the insurance, fuel, taxes. My car costs 618 a month (with 340 in added costs). Add that to yours and it's 618 vs 434 and presto driving a junker is only 30% cheaper.

you better hope this is the case, if second hand cars were as unreliable as you and wade make out, you wont be able to GIVE your car away after your 4 years is up ;)
A 4 year old cars is still lightyears away from the state and maintenance/reliability misery of an old junker.

Everyone in my family has driven an old junker. A lot of friends of mine did. All these cars had maintenance costs that were way higher than 2000 over 4 years. Many ended in catastrophic failures. Racking up amazingly high depreciation costs.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #146 on: April 29, 2008, 09:11:44 am »
I refuse to continue reading this thread until Paige fixes his link. WTF dude, you should know better!

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #147 on: April 30, 2008, 04:19:11 am »

i still think you are adding euros to dollars for an interesting result  ;D

ok, when i commuted, it was about $30 per week for fuel. lets just call that $120/month. insurance is about $150 per year (third party fire and theft) so 12.50/month. plus the actual cost of the car plus repairs 93.75/month. almost forgot registration  $43/month total cost is about $295.50 per month for my car if you work it like that.

the toyota yaris would have used roughly $20 per week fuel if i were driving it. so lets say $80/month. you should have full insurance for a new car. using the same company i used (AAMI) it is 43.75/month (cheaper per year, but you like these monthly figures  ;)) the car itself $312.50/month (and as you say, no extra costs in four years if still in warranty), registration $43/month so total is $419.50/month.

i can see what you are getting at now. that is roughly 42% more, which is in the ballpark to your 30% figure. but i still think that is considerably more expensive. perhaps we should debate what the definition of 'considerably' is. to me 42% is considerably more. using the car dealers trick of making it look like nothing by making it monthly doesnt disguise the fact that in four years i would have spent about $7000 dollars more. the difference would be even more if my second hand car was more fuel efficient. in fact the new yaris would be about 100% more than my junker (nee, niet JUNKERS-het vliegtuig  :D) if it had similar fuel economy (which is entirely possible, cars havent become terribly more fuel efficient. swap my car for an old corolla or similar).

 i can quite easily drive the car i have for  ten years (if we still have any fuel by then). that works out to about $193/month. allowing for money back on the new car (about $7500 after five years) and the cost of another ($15000) works out to about $311/month or about a 60% premium to my costs. this is about the cost of the new car ($14160) over a ten year period!

edit: forgot the rego on that last example but i think that figure just strengthens my case anyway...

anyway, i think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive'  :dunno

oh, and shardian, link is fixed. read away  ;D


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #148 on: April 30, 2008, 09:13:42 am »
Okay, there is a ton of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- here, so I'll just hit the points that I remember off the cuff:

About Taxis: Paige, I think your idea of Taxis is heavily influenced by movies set in NY. In real life, a Taxi can take up to an hour to reach you. In my area, there might be 1 or two mom and pop operations with a car or two each. And where do you get your idea that Taxi's are safer?!? I have seen the taxi's around here - they are whatever beater the company has on hand with a sticker on the side! Even the big cities are switching to the "tin cans" that you despise.

And here are several facts that need to be considered when driving an older used car:
1. Liability insurance
2. blue book value
3. Finding a good value replacement used car when yours bites the dust

If you get in a wreck in a car with liability and you are at fault then bye bye $2k car - good luck finding another $2k car with the $2k you do not have. This can happen the day after you buy your car and you would be so screwed it would not be funny - especially if you buy a $5k used car and have liability.
The other issue is Blue Book Value. I refuse to buy a used car that will have liability anywhere near blue book value. I treat the gap between sale price and BB value to be "car equity", and keep the upfront repair cost below this amount. This fact paid off huge on my last car. I got a $3300 BB value Volvo for $850 and did upfront and intermediate repairs that brought my total investment to about $2500. The car was hit and totalled in a parking lot, which means I actually got paid to own the car for 2 years.
That brings me to #3, finding a replacement. With the way people are jacking there prices through the roof for good mpg beaters, finding a car for $3k or less that met my requirements has been next to impossible. Luckily I listened to the birdy in my ear and kept my other beater sitting in the driveway all this time.

Bottom line, going used or beater is a gamble that can turn out awesome, or can be a nightmare. I've been on both ends of the gamble, and except for extreme examples (such as wrecking two or mroe beaters at your fault in a year), it will end up being cheaper than new.

On the other end of the spectrum, if someone buys new and drives the car more 10 years or more without any issues and then sells or trades, they will come out smelling like roses too - and with many less headaches than a person who blew thru 4-5 used cars in that same 10 year span.

In summary, here are your two best cost effective options:
1. buy cheap used and hope for the best
2. buy affordable, good rep, high mpg new and drive for 10+ years

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2008, 09:17:35 am »
2. buy affordable, good rep, high mpg new and drive for 10+ years

This is what my wife and I do...  we pretty much drive it until the wheels fall off, then get a new one.  The only thing I had to replace in my wife's '99 Civic (with 256K miles on it) was the coil (other than normal maintenance items).

Then we got totalled by some idiot driving way too fast in 6 inches of wet snow with a '68 Camaro...   :badmood:

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2008, 09:21:07 am »
Well my income is paid per month so that's usually what I relate my expenses too. But sure you could do it over the whole run too.

the toyota yaris would have used roughly $20 per week fuel if i were driving it. so lets say $80/month. you should have full insurance for a new car. using the same company i used (AAMI) it is 43.75/month (cheaper per year, but you like these monthly figures  ;)) the car itself $312.50/month (and as you say, no extra costs in four years if still in warranty), registration $43/month so total is $419.50/month.

How do you get that a Yaris "itself" costs $312 a month? Is that depreciation? Depreciation on a 15,000 yaris would be roughly $150 a month. If you correct for that in your calculation then the new Yaris would cost roughly $250 a month.

Your monthly car costs are:
- $120 for fuel,
- $12.50 for insurance
- $40 on repairs
- $26 in depreciation ($2500 car worth half after 4 years = $1250/48)
=$198.50

With the Yaris coming out at $250 a month, the difference in cost is just over $50 a month (a 20% saving on the cost of driving a new Yaris).

Quote
anyway, I think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive' :dunno
True and it will depend on the cost (or cost difference) in relation to the income too.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2008, 10:22:03 am »
I'd like to know how dannygalaga gets insurance for $150/yr.  Do you actually have the minimum liability coverage required by law?  Or are you piggybacking on your parents insurance?

Danny says that the money he saves driving a beater for 10 years (good luck with that, BTW) would save him enough money to buy a new car.  Well, my position is, why not just buy the new car??

I've spent more on my used cars and repairs for the past 10 years than it takes to buy a new car.  That's why I finally got smart and bought a cheap, new car.  The cost difference is minimal, and I'd have the benefit of better reliability, better mileage (than what I had), better safety (airbags), comfort (my beaters had non-working A/C, as many do), and predictable expense.

With an old used car it's simply a big gamble.  A few of you have been extremely lucky, most people have not, or breakdowns are not a problem for your lifestyle, family, or job.  Two of my breakdowns left me quite a distance from home.  There's no dirt cheap or quick way to recover from that.  Taking a day off work, if necessary, is another several hundred dollars.  It only takes one or two of these incidents before it's to your benefit to have a new car. 

For me, it was a no brainer.  I'm planning to take the "middle road" and drive this new car for as long as it is reliable, which will likely be 5-10 years.

People should be doubling their income and wealth about every 10 years as well, so that already $100/month price difference will get even smaller relative to income, as time goes on.

Wade

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2008, 06:03:02 pm »
I don't use taxis myself, but I do work behind a hotel counter and thus have called more of them than most people can ever imagine, I am well aware of the highly variable response time they come with.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #153 on: April 30, 2008, 11:45:11 pm »


How do you get that a Yaris "itself" costs $312 a month? Is that depreciation? Depreciation on a 15,000 yaris would be roughly $150 a month. If you correct for that in your calculation then the new Yaris would cost roughly $250 a month.

Your monthly car costs are:
- $120 for fuel,
- $12.50 for insurance
- $40 on repairs
- $26 in depreciation ($2500 car worth half after 4 years = $1250/48)
=$198.50

With the Yaris coming out at $250 a month, the difference in cost is just over $50 a month (a 20% saving on the cost of driving a new Yaris).

Quote
anyway, I think really the question is what you consider 'considerably more expensive' :dunno
True and it will depend on the cost (or cost difference) in relation to the income too.

yeah, i realised today i left out the depreciation value for the yaris. where i calculated for ten years i actually ADDED the amount saved! however depreciation for my car (being a special example) will be essentially zero since right now i could sell it for more than i paid, and down the track probably at least the same. the yaris (times 2, years 5-10 being the second car) only works out to about $291/month with depreciation over ten years, not $311/month like i first calculated. and if you only own a car four years and never drive again, then the yaris has only cost about $323/month with depreciation. which is only about 10% more than my car over the same period! youve almost convinced me to buy a new car now (",)

except- im not willing to hand over that much cash. therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose. also, after 4 years i wont be giving up driving. so in a ten year period its still 50% more over that period.

but i concede that in the special case of owning a new toyota yaris for 4 years and never driving again, i would buy the new yaris! 


yes, about the relative value of 'considerable'. i guess that does colour our views since i am working class, as are many of my friends while obviously earn a nice salary. in relation to our earnings, that canmake quite a difference.


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #154 on: April 30, 2008, 11:52:58 pm »
I'd like to know how dannygalaga gets insurance for $150/yr.  Do you actually have the minimum liability coverage required by law?  Or are you piggybacking on your parents insurance?

Danny says that the money he saves driving a beater for 10 years (good luck with that, BTW) would save him enough money to buy a new car.  Well, my position is, why not just buy the new car??


i drive a beater, i only really need to have third party (i lashed out and had fire and theft tacked onto it for an extra 50) for it. if its totalled in an accident thats my fault, i can buy another beater with some of that cash ive saved. if the accident isnt my fault, no sweat...

if i save $15000 in ten years on TOP of my savings, ive got an extra 15 grand i would not have had if i had a new car. perhaps in ten years, i might buy a new car with some of the money ive saved (and the capital gains and dividends it earned)...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #155 on: May 01, 2008, 12:02:25 am »
therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.
Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan  ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #156 on: May 01, 2008, 12:04:39 am »
  A few of you have been extremely lucky, most people have not, or breakdowns are not a problem for your lifestyle, family, or job.  Two of my breakdowns left me quite a distance from home.  There's no dirt cheap or quick way to recover from that.  Taking a day off work, if necessary, is another several hundred dollars.  It only takes one or two of these incidents before it's to your benefit to have a new car. 


it's not luck. i'm not being glib, but really it's a talent. you (and many others) don't seem to have it. part of that clearly is a lack of time or inclination to maintain an older car properly. fair enough. some of it is just a lack of that special repoir you develop with a car. i believe paige has the talent and so do i. i drove my last beater for about ten years. i had a beater that wasnt so great (a triumph saloon) and it had some weird transmission problems- those mofos have SIX universal joints! but i honed my talents on that car so that i now have quite a good sense of how a car is going to fair. when i test drove my VW, i knew it could last the distance. you always bear in mind that things are going to break on an older car, part of the talent is knowing what kind of things and avoiding them if possible- tip for would be beater buyers: avoid cars with power steering!


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #157 on: May 01, 2008, 12:06:21 am »
therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.
Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan  ;D

theres always someone, isnt there  ;D


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #158 on: May 01, 2008, 03:56:28 am »
it's not luck. i'm not being glib, but really it's a talent. you (and many others) don't seem to have it. part of that clearly is a lack of time or inclination to maintain an older car properly.
It's more if you enjoy doing it. I was forced to maintain my old junker too, but I really rather have my weekends off and not waste them on tinkering with an old car.

It's really just a matter of trading in free time, a superior ride, high reliability and a quantum leap in safety for a 30% savings.

Let's do the Yaris calculation properly:
Driving a new Yaris for 10 years
   93,75    depreciation (15000 divided in half twice makes a return of 3750. Loss in value divided by 120)
   32,81    insurance (full for the first 5 and I took half for the last 5)
   80,00    gas
   43,00    reg
   20,00    maint (40 a month for the last 5 years)
= 269,56 total a month

Driving a new Yaris for 5 years
  156,25    depreciation (15000 divided in half and divided by 48)
   43,75    insurance
   80,00    gas
   43,00    registration
     0,00   maintenance
= 323,00 total a month

I didn't use realistic maintenance figures since you don't do so either.

To redo your cars costs I will correct the depreciation down a bit and add the registration.
 13   depreciation
 12,5   insurance
 120   gas
 43   registration
 40   maintenance
228,5 total per month  (which is 85% of driving new for 10 years and 70% of driving new for 5 years)

You would save $4500 over 5 years against driving new and  $5000 over 10 years against "driving a new car for 10 years".

The only way you stay near the 30% saving (compared to driving new) is by claiming ridiculously low maintenance costs (mostly because you value your own time at $0) and by claiming that a 15 year old car has practically the same value as a 10 year old car (which in reality is not going to be true in most cases). On the other hand a Yaris is probably a lot smaller than your car so that's not a fair comparison either.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #159 on: May 01, 2008, 06:16:29 am »
well, ive come half way at least  ;D  i factored in $500 a year maintainence on my car. i bet though if i set up a special bank account for that maintainence, depositing $500 a year into it, by year 5 i would still have something left in it. so i think i was over-estimating the cost of maintainence for my car if anything. i agree with paige on depreciation too. once you get to a certain age in a car, the depreciation is a lot less comparably. in the case of some cars like VW's, since they are perenial favourites, the price doesnt go lower but can even climb (not ahead of inflation of course, but still).  i think youre estimate for $40/month for last 5 years is fine. that would cover a timing belt and a few bits and pieces. could even come out less...however i didnt add the extra charges you get slugged when you buy a new car since i dont know exactly what they are. for the yaris, it would probably bring it to around $16000.

maintainance costs really are zero if you do it yourself. thats the beauty of it. think of it this way- if you change a lightbulb in your house,  you have saved $25 because you didn't call a handyman. but who would call a handyman to change a lightbulb if they can do it themselves? if the microswitches in your sanwa joystick are stuffed and you replaced them yourself, you can say youve saved $50 because you didnt take it to some technician.  i can also say i saved $764/month with MY car because i didnt buy YOUR car!

theres a saying i picked up from a cartoon panel i saw as a kid. in it you see a wife busily making a dress, pins in her mouth, hunched over a sewing machine. the husband is in the foreground reading the paper. he says "where's the savings? if you didn't make it, i wasn't going to buy it!"  ;D
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 06:18:59 am by danny_galaga »


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #160 on: May 01, 2008, 07:21:40 am »
i agree with paige on depreciation too. once you get to a certain age in a car, the depreciation is a lot less comparably.
It's less only in an absolute sense. Most cars generally lose half their value every 4 to 5 years. So relatively the price drop is still comparable. Of course going from 2500 to 1250 is less money in an absolute sense, but it's still half of the value you started with. Maybe that's a dutch thing, but I seriously doubt it.

maintainance costs really are zero if you do it yourself.
Well it costs you your free time. It depends on how high you value your time. If you think free time is worthless then sure the cost would be "zero".

It gets even worse if you can easily get money for your time. If I spend an hour extra on my clients I make a helluvalot more money than if I would if I spend the time on my car.

Quote
i can also say i saved $764/month with MY car because i didnt buy YOUR car!
But then if you were driving your car here the bill would be twice as high too.

Besides for me the new car is a lot cheaper than my previous car. I drove an Audi TT for 6.5 years and that one cost about $1,600 a month. At the end it was racking up $3000 maintenance bills per year. Not so much because it was breaking down, but simply because the parts, that need to be replaced now and then, cost a fortune. New tires alone would cost $1,500. The only thing that surprised me was how little I save on my fuel bill. At best the Honda use 20% less and that's only because I drive a lot slower than before.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2008, 07:30:25 am by patrickl »
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #161 on: May 01, 2008, 07:27:28 am »

you missed the bit where i said 'i can sell it for the same price or even more'...

an hour of your time does tie into that relative term of 'considerable expense' since maybe you could earn $200/hour while i earn about $17.50/hour. but money is money. if i earnt $200+/hour i would still be inclined to drive a junker (thats probably the dutch in me  ;))


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patrickl

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #162 on: May 01, 2008, 07:36:01 am »

you missed the bit where i said 'i can sell it for the same price or even more'...
You missed the bit where I said "Most cars". Sure if you have a classic then it might not lose much value, but a general car like a Toyota starlet, Corolla or VW Golf will depreciate at a reasonably steady rate.

Quote
an hour of your time does tie into that relative term of 'considerable expense' since maybe you could earn $200/hour while i earn about $17.50/hour. but money is money. if i earnt $200+/hour i would still be inclined to drive a junker (thats probably the dutch in me  ;))
It's determined by the fact that if you make more or less than the cost of letting someone else do the work. When I need to pay someone $25 to do something and I make a lot more than that myself, I let this someone do it and I spend my time on making my own money. In the end I come out with more money that way.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #163 on: May 01, 2008, 07:42:58 am »
It's determined by the fact that if you make more or less than the cost of letting someone else do the work. When I need to pay someone $25 to do something and I make a lot more than that myself, I let this someone do it and I spend my time on making my own money. In the end I come out with more money that way.

exactly!! so if you bought a second hand car, and you let someone else fix it for you you'll come out with more money!

i'm glad you finally agree with me  :D


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #164 on: May 01, 2008, 07:49:00 am »
It's determined by the fact that if you make more or less than the cost of letting someone else do the work. When I need to pay someone $25 to do something and I make a lot more than that myself, I let this someone do it and I spend my time on making my own money. In the end I come out with more money that way.

exactly!! so if you bought a second hand car, and you let someone else fix it for you you'll come out with more money!

i'm glad you finally agree with me  :D
Have I ever not agreed on that point?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #165 on: May 01, 2008, 04:05:46 pm »
you missed the bit where i said 'i can sell it for the same price or even more'...

Funny you mention that.  Every used car I've owned, after driving it a few years and dumping a bunch of money into it, I was still only able to sell it for $500-1000.  It's not like there's a huge demand for junkers, usually they have to be given away.  Junk yards even charge you to come pick up your dead vehicle.

How many of these old cars have you driven for an extended period, anyway?  I'm curious.  No one I've known has been able to do that without expensive maintenance and relatively frequent repairs.  I drove older cars for most of the past 15 years, and it's been a real pain in the butt and cost me a lot of money.

Wade

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #166 on: May 01, 2008, 04:37:48 pm »
you missed the bit where i said 'i can sell it for the same price or even more'...

Funny you mention that.  Every used car I've owned, after driving it a few years and dumping a bunch of money into it, I was still only able to sell it for $500-1000.  It's not like there's a huge demand for junkers, usually they have to be given away.  Junk yards even charge you to come pick up your dead vehicle.

How many of these old cars have you driven for an extended period, anyway?  I'm curious.  No one I've known has been able to do that without expensive maintenance and relatively frequent repairs.  I drove older cars for most of the past 15 years, and it's been a real pain in the butt and cost me a lot of money.

Wade

My used car Chronology:
1989 Ford Escort: 1.5 years (totalled in wreck, was still running great)
- It was free. (No AC)
- Replaced alternator was only major expense
- After wreck, bought $300 worth of parts to try and fix it until frame damage did me in. It went to the junk yard and I got nothing for it

1987 Toyota Corolla: 1 year
-Cost $400 (No AC)
-Had overheating problem and replaced water pump twice
-Engine blew up on Interstate the day after I bought the next car
- let junk yard pick it up

1994 Geo Tracker: ~5 years (~70k miles)
- Cost $1750, later bought a hard top for $500 (no AC, but was a convertible)
- replaced alternator, but went thru 3 faulty Advance Auto Alternators which made the issue a real pain in the ass. I was stranded approx 5 times due to this ---smurfy--- problem until I went NAPA and never looked back.
- clutch cable froze on interstate once
- Bad wheel bearing gave me a hell of a time replacing once too
- Got $1750 in trade in for it (it was a rusted out piece of ---Cleveland steamer--- with a blown rear main seal, a horribly shot harmonic balancer, etc at this time with 210k miles on it)

1989 Volvo 740GL ~ we have had this for ~5 years and is now my daily driver
- it was free (ICE COLD AC! Yay!)
- have replaced alternator and battery
- timing belt replaced myself at minimal cost
-still driving now and is the most reliable car I've had

1994 Volvo 850 Turbo: owned for almost 2 years
- Bought for $850 (bought with no AC, but I got it working with a $20 recharge kit)
- Did ~ $1800 in repair work to make it run perfect
- Car was totalled in a fender bender and I got $3300 for it

After adding up everything, throwing in a few extra hundred for each car in misc repairs, and deducting what I have gotten back for the last two, my grand total investment for ALL of my cars is:

(drum roll please)... ~$2000!* (*I will eventually sell or trade the 740, and this will only lower my total investment)

This number does not include insurance, registration, taxes, etc. All of these values would be considerably lower than a new car, so that is extra savings.

So I have been driving junkers for ~10 years and have only spent $2000. That is a whopping $16.67 a month for car payment AND repairs.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #167 on: May 01, 2008, 04:49:49 pm »
So the moral of the story is to get your junker totalled to lower costs?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #168 on: May 01, 2008, 06:37:52 pm »
Invariably a zero interest auto loan is a promotion that is offered as a choice amongst several options and one of those options is a big factory rebate check. So yes you still pay extra for a zero percent loan.

Also, people with zero percent loans also tend to pay sticker price (or close to) for their vehicles due to dealer shenanigans ("The deal with the zero percent is this car at this price only") and general payment thinking.



therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.
Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan  ;D
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #169 on: May 01, 2008, 11:33:02 pm »
So the moral of the story is to get your junker totalled to lower costs?

If you have less in it than clean NADA value, HELL YEAH!
 :laugh2:

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2008, 01:33:48 am »


How many of these old cars have you driven for an extended period, anyway?  I'm curious.  No one I've known has been able to do that without expensive maintenance and relatively frequent repairs.  I drove older cars for most of the past 15 years, and it's been a real pain in the butt and cost me a lot of money.

Wade

well, like i say, some old cars (like my VW) hold their value (as little as that is). i paid $2500 and right now i could get more for it im sure.

rough chronology of my beater lifestyle:

1986- 1968 ford cortina mk II. paid $150 for it. spent maybe $200 or so to get it roadworthy (needed a carb, generator and tyres). sold it a couple of years later for $800 (",)

cost -$650

1988- triumph saloon (forgotten the year, about 1975). bought from a dealer for $1999 or something cheesy like that. kept that for about 4 years. a number of repairs on that (like i say, i learnt a lot form that POS  ;D). replaced all 6 universals several times. rebuilt the engine. rear-ended someone and had to replace radiator. i think i sold it for about $500 unregistered.

cost +$3500 (approx)

1990ish- i also bought a PE250 enduro bike from the wreckers for $250. minor problem to fix. spent several hundred to get it roadworthy. rode it for about two years. eventually got defected for noise (im still pissed about that, it was loud, but not as loud as a harley- how many of THOSE do you see get done for noise?). sold it unregistered for $600.

cost break even

1991ish- bought a 1973 holden torana (the beast). paid $2800 i think. drove it for about ten years. by then my beater mojo was strong  ;D . usual running repairs over that period of time including two batteries, at least one set of brakes. also had the rack and pinion rebuilt as it was getting a bit loose. rebuilt the engine after about five years. i couldnt bear o sell it when i bought a new car, so it sat under the house for the last five years. sold it for $500 unregistered.

cost +$4000(approx)

around the same time i had a beach buggy. that wasnt much of a car, but i bought it more for the fun of it rather than transport. it was always a second car.

1996- in canada i bought a 1978 ford mustang for $1050. had to replace alternator. fuel filter on the road. power steering died on me in the car park at the grand canyon, arizona. grrrr. drove it like that back to phoenix. mechanic said cant get non power rack for that model. would be $600 USD to rebuild, which was about what the car cost! however, HIS beater mojo was strong too. he could see i was an impoverished backpacker, he stretched a fan belt onto the water pump and alternator to by-pass the sterring pump and pumped up the tyres real hard  ;D. $35 for that... sold it to another backpacker unregistered for $250 on proviso i got to keep the horse emblem off the grille.

cost +$1000 (approx)

2001- new car. $11500. doesnt count for this list. just thought id put it in. drove it for about 3 years. sold it for $2500. talk about depreciation!

2005- 1973 VW (the master). $2500. a few basic things needed which were expected for the car, like new brake pads. replaced the starter. inexplicable problem cost about $400 (fuel liine prob). full tune up this year (will do it every second year i think) about.$200.

cost +$3200 (approx)

so, what have i spent in 22 years? roughly $11000. that includes owning two cars in two countries at one time (",). obviously this doesnt account for inflation etc. thats getting too complicated to work out and patrickl already has my head reeling with all these figures  :dizzy:  ;D

edit: shardian is the king though. 2 grand in 19 years  :o
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 01:38:15 am by danny_galaga »


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2008, 02:48:00 am »
Invariably a zero interest auto loan is a promotion that is offered as a choice amongst several options and one of those options is a big factory rebate check. So yes you still pay extra for a zero percent loan.

Also, people with zero percent loans also tend to pay sticker price (or close to) for their vehicles due to dealer shenanigans ("The deal with the zero percent is this car at this price only") and general payment thinking.



therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.
Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan  ;D
I could of taken $1000 off the price instead of 0% interest loan, so yes I could of saved a little money if I paid cash, you got me, but I'm still not paying through the nose, as danny put it.

Also, the 0% interest loan is a promotion done by the manufacturers loan company, not by the dealer, so there are no "dealer shenanigans" around them because they have nothing to gain from giving you a higher interest loan.

You seem to be a glass half empty type of guy and that makes me sad.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2008, 08:10:10 am »
edit: shardian is the king though. 2 grand in 19 years  :o

10 years actually - I'm only 26.

There was some concurrent ownership going on near the end of the list. My wife drove the 740 for several years before I took it over full time.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2008, 01:27:11 pm »
I am totally aware that the manufacturer offers the promotion not the dealer, that doesn't keep the dealership from ripping people off in conjunction with the manufacturer promotions.

Invariably a zero interest auto loan is a promotion that is offered as a choice amongst several options and one of those options is a big factory rebate check. So yes you still pay extra for a zero percent loan.

Also, people with zero percent loans also tend to pay sticker price (or close to) for their vehicles due to dealer shenanigans ("The deal with the zero percent is this car at this price only") and general payment thinking.



therefore a loan really puts the cost of a new car vs old in a different light. where someone gets a loan for a car (new OR old) there is no debate. you will pay through the nose.
Unless your like me and get a $0 down 0% interest loan  ;D
I could of taken $1000 off the price instead of 0% interest loan, so yes I could of saved a little money if I paid cash, you got me, but I'm still not paying through the nose, as danny put it.

Also, the 0% interest loan is a promotion done by the manufacturers loan company, not by the dealer, so there are no "dealer shenanigans" around them because they have nothing to gain from giving you a higher interest loan.

You seem to be a glass half empty type of guy and that makes me sad.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #174 on: May 02, 2008, 01:48:25 pm »
I am totally aware that the manufacturer offers the promotion not the dealer, that doesn't keep the dealership from ripping people off in conjunction with the manufacturer promotions.
If a dealer ever tried to use a manufacturer promotion as leverage to get me to somehow pay more for the car, then I would go to a different dealer and probably notify the manufacturer of the dealers scumbag tactics.  I went to over a half dozen dealerships when looking for a car, and I think every new car I looked at had some sort of incentive interest rate and not once did a dealer try to use that as leverage.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #175 on: May 11, 2008, 12:09:46 pm »
I'm English, lived in America for 2 years. Cars and gas have been an interest. Swap £4+ per gallon and 35+ mpg, for $3.50 (less than half cost at 2:1 exchange rate) and 25 mpg.
Threw everyone when the UK went to cost per litre, as no doubt intended. We knew where we were up to with gallons, same with lbs and ounces. Everyone I know of still works out the gallon price. Many people consider -5C as cold and 85F as very warm - two different temperature scales !
 
I was surprised at the PT Cruiser too. Do the UK ones have a different engine ? cos I can't imagine how a single car would sell otherwise.


Vehicles:
(USA) 2001 Ford Escort, 32mpg
1987 GMC Sierra truck, 18mpg - unladen, highway, even with 3 arcade cabs on the back it returned the same over approx 9000 miles. Bought for $175 and sold for $650 recently. From what I read, that V8 engine was frugal.
Neither vehicles maintenance costs have been large. Home inspections for the obvious sorts much. Tyre condition, tyre pressures, oil level, water level, brake fluid level every couple of weeks and much is avoided. Also, the lack of driving around with loud 'choons' playing. If you are in sympathy with the vehicle, it cuts breakdowns. Listen to the engine, take note of especially the brake pedal pressure needed, don't do full lock turns every chance you get etc.   

Enjoyable thread to read right through. I'm very happy to see, that in America, owning more fuel efficient cars like the Fit and Prius is now not the same as walking into a gay bar with tight shorts on !
TV ads are showing some really quite acceptable hybrids and such. They don't look like Noddy cars anymore, but, they're still token gestures. One area of electric running that's given problems is with regenerative braking. The batteries not being able to charge quickly enough and use the full power of the braking force. Err...what about decent capacitors to give time for the batteries to accept the charge ?

What does irritate me though, is that BP and Shell are huge presences here - yet they don'd mention for one second that they are UK companies. Do I have things out of perspective ? BP is British Petroleum, yet their tag line is 'Beyond Petroleum'. Mind you, I didn't realise where Q8 petrol stations were from for a few years  :-[

I do believe America is changing fast...i've been surprised at the lack of wish to keep the big old powerful stuff, because it seemed manly to want to rev at traffic lights to impress any female, or own a big truck because it isn't a girly vehicle.  The USA isn't stuck in the 80's and that's something the UK in general doesn't know.
No doubt the current created recession is helping things.
In my opinion. Clinton AND Obama sharing office would bring Hillary's husbands economic skills to reduce debt and Barack's enthusiasm for equality and common sense policy. We'll be treated to 'radical' transport policies, but they would have to come along anyway. Those two people are the exact 'radical' enablers after a decidedly old style presidency.
I doubt fields of switch grass will replace ex commuter ghost towns, but am hopeful.
Money needs to come from travel fuels and America's heartland is well placed to grow riches. For UK readers, did you know America is pushing coal likes it's some kind of new fuel ?
 
Being that the diesel engine was originally intended to run on vegetable oil, that engine still has a bright future. Great series on TV recently about some eco guys travelling the USA in a green bus, in colour and cos it ran on vegetable oil. They were looking at alternative energy sources all over the country. I can imagine 3am raids on McDonalds bins in the future.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #176 on: May 11, 2008, 08:53:16 pm »
Waste oil vehicles are a joke, that stuff was already being converted to energy in the first place. When they were a novelty and there were only a few dozen of them in the country restaurant owners were a lot more willing to go along with giving a bit of it away now and then. But now there are 10s of thousands of vehicles out there with the veg oil kits installed, and they have seriously run into the problem that most chain restaurants now have rules against giving the stuff to the people and the fact that basically every restaurant around has a contract with someone who buys their waste oil for actual money.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #177 on: May 12, 2008, 08:27:40 am »
Waste oil vehicles are a joke, that stuff was already being converted to energy in the first place. When they were a novelty and there were only a few dozen of them in the country restaurant owners were a lot more willing to go along with giving a bit of it away now and then. But now there are 10s of thousands of vehicles out there with the veg oil kits installed, and they have seriously run into the problem that most chain restaurants now have rules against giving the stuff to the people and the fact that basically every restaurant around has a contract with someone who buys their waste oil for actual money.

Glad I'm not the only person who realizes the fundamental problem with this fad.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #178 on: May 12, 2008, 09:16:40 am »
I don't think slider was only referring to waste oil vehicles though.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #179 on: May 12, 2008, 11:26:34 am »
 ;) nah, good points, but I intended to refer simply to their use of an alternative fuel. There could be some amazing technologies that haven't even been thought of, of course. The waste oil example shows how fuel could and has been obtained for nothing, the show was good for thinking about travel in different ways (with an unfortunate tendency by one host to say 'awesome' every few seconds lol).
While motoring generally factors in a fuel cost, I certainly champion ideas such as that. It's no surprise that someone started buyinmg up contracts for it though.

Whatever works best for the economy will be championed, solar, water or cow farts are no good for money generation. Ethanol is already much the same price as regular gas ! Where's the incentive ?

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #180 on: May 12, 2008, 11:49:51 am »
I am going to look at a Honda Civic this evening.
2001 LX with 105k miles. Lady wants $6k, I will pay $5500 max.

It is an auto and gets 28 city/32 highway on average.

I hate paying that much for a car with over 100k miles, but it should go to 160k without major problems. At that point, my savings on gas + good resale value should make it worthwhile for 4 years of ownership. What do you all think?

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #181 on: May 12, 2008, 12:02:32 pm »
Do it.  You won't regret it.  It will probably last even longer than your estimate.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #182 on: May 12, 2008, 01:26:40 pm »
They already HAD contracts for the stuff in the first place. It was never going to the dump, it was always getting used, that is why all the restaurants have a separate bin for the stuff in the first place.

;) nah, good points, but I intended to refer simply to their use of an alternative fuel. There could be some amazing technologies that haven't even been thought of, of course. The waste oil example shows how fuel could and has been obtained for nothing, the show was good for thinking about travel in different ways (with an unfortunate tendency by one host to say 'awesome' every few seconds lol).
While motoring generally factors in a fuel cost, I certainly champion ideas such as that. It's no surprise that someone started buyinmg up contracts for it though.

Whatever works best for the economy will be championed, solar, water or cow farts are no good for money generation. Ethanol is already much the same price as regular gas ! Where's the incentive ?
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #183 on: May 12, 2008, 02:12:01 pm »
They already HAD contracts for the stuff in the first place. It was never going to the dump, it was always getting used, that is why all the restaurants have a separate bin for the stuff in the first place.

I've worked for several restaurants and found this to be true.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #184 on: May 19, 2008, 04:18:48 pm »
I am going to look at a Honda Civic this evening.
2001 LX with 105k miles. Lady wants $6k, I will pay $5500 max.

It is an auto and gets 28 city/32 highway on average.

I hate paying that much for a car with over 100k miles, but it should go to 160k without major problems. At that point, my savings on gas + good resale value should make it worthwhile for 4 years of ownership. What do you all think?

Will be getting this car on Friday for $5500. And since numbers tend to get thrown around in this thread:

Savings in gas ($4 gas): $80/month less
Changing from Liability insurance to Comp/Collision: $13/month more
Bottom line savings per month: $67

The car has newer tires, new brakes, excellent maintenance. I should be able to drive problem free for 3 years - thus saving almost $2500 in gas.

Add to that the fact that the Volvo is due tires, brakes, front end work, etc, and this deal just sounds better and better.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #185 on: June 08, 2008, 05:53:19 pm »
2000 Dodge Durango (360ci V8) - 13.5 mpg freeway from Idaho to San Diego and back. 

1997 Dodge Dakota (315ci V8) - 15-16 mpg freeway

1977 Dodge Class-C 22' RV (440ci monster) - 6 mpg freeway (pulling a dune buggy)



you win :woot

although i see drew hasnt posted yet...

;D  Danny, the job change no longer has me in a truck.  That thing got 9-12 mpg depending on what I was towing.  Currently, the wife's car gets about 23-24 mpg, and mine gets 21-26, depending on what my weekend is filled with.
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #186 on: June 08, 2008, 08:59:04 pm »
40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

How nice and ignorant of you.

BTW, my V8 gets better mileage than my wife's V6.  I'm estimating HIGH for her mileage, since I know on the low end, she averages 18 mpg.

Or....should I just assume you're going to now readjust your tool-worthy statement to include V6's too?  Mebbe not, since your precious vehicle was made at one point with a 6, and you might have to choke on your ignorant statement.

Nice, isn't it, that enviropriests never really introduce themselves, they just let themselves be known....or are you ACTUALLY "religious" too?  Prolly just one of those rare people who AREN'T religious but just so happen to be as judgmental as those evil "believers" ::)

Didn't someone around here have a hard time grasping the concept of environmentalism being the new "religion" of our times?  Yeah, crazy theory, I know! ::)

My commute is 5 minutes. I should really cycle to work but the whole arriving at work in sweaty clothes doesn't really do much for me.

Oh, a hypocrite too?!?!  So by your standard, NOT cycling to work means you....how'd you put it?  "burn in hell"?

Which sounds better, "envirotholic", "envirotestant"? :laugh2: 

Stop molesting the gas pumps for your freak-fix, faux granola boy.

06 Scion xA   35 mph

wow, even my VW is fater than that!

No, your VW is PHat.  It's still fatter than his Scion.  Longerer too, I bet.

But I am finished trying to educate here, everyone please continue telling yourselves that you NEED those new cars because the old ones break down all the time, and not because you just WANT a new car.
You really should look better into where your costs are. If you add it all up you will see there really is not that big a cost difference between buying a new car every 4 years and driving an old car. The drop in depreciation is compensated largely by the increase in maintenance costs and the lower fuel bill for a newer car.

If you insist on having "new" cars, the BEST value for a "new" car is a 1-to-2-year old car.  The largest chunk of depreciation is gone, a service record most likely has been established (possible lemon's can be "outed"), and it's still under warranty. 


I don't have a $22k hybrid, I bought a 2008 4-door Yaris with a sticker of $14.5k.  Happily gave them my 98 Camry beater in trade and took a loan for the $10k.  I would say that just about anyone with some motivation or a trade could get the same price, or near it.

Quote
10,000 miles per year on a V8 getting 18 MPG at $3.50 a gallon costs a person $1944 a year.
10,000 miles a year on a standard 2008 Honda civic (29 mpg, which is really pitiful if you ask me) at $3.50 a gallon costs $1206 a year.
So in theory you save yourself $744 a year here, oh wait, how much extra is that full coverage insurance on that car you are financing? Better add in $500 extra a year for that.

1) Most V8's are getting far worse than 18 MPG in mixed/city.  Especially older cars.


First, I dunno how many miles were on your Camry, but simple maths tells us you "sold" your Camry to the dealership for $4500.  It was a '98.  Toyota and Honda hold their resale value VERY well.  In case I'm not making myself clear, unless you had eleventy brazillion miles on your '98 Camry, the dealership robbed you when they gave you $4500 for it.  Even WITH eleventy brazillion miles, you could have gotten more than that selling it to someone else.  Accident damage changes my opinion, but you didn't mention it, which one might think you'd have done.

Second, my V8 mileage is listed above.  I haven't given my car a tune-up since I purchased it a few months ago, which I have full confidence will boost my mileage 2-10 mpg based on similar reports from other owners of the same type of car (numerous reports I've come across, including some who state that my car is capable of 30+ mpg with some mods).  This car is a '96.  Someone will have to define "old", or refine/DEfine the terms we're speaking about, because a 12 year old car seems like it'd fit the definition of "old", unless everyone is applying "old" to something like my mom's '70 Firebird, and making an obscenely unfair comparison simply to make themselves feel better about being "right".

The lower end of my mileage is in mixed/city driving.  I've hit 28 with solid freeway driving, but didn't feel it fair to claim it.  It'd be like comparing a 2008 Yaris to a 1970 Firebird ;)

If you figure that car will likely need virtually no work or maintenance for the first 8-10 years, it's even cheaper to own. 

 :laugh2:

Paige is absolutely right on this one. The total cost of ownership will be lowest for a junker, even a gas-guzzling junker.

That's not saying that buying the Civic, Prius or any other new car is bad or wrong. You just have to realize that you're trading off a higher total cost of ownership against the greater reliability, features, comfort, "smug", and chick-attractiveness factor of the new car.

Practically everyone I know drives new cars for 5-7 years, and in that period, it's rare that any work needs to be done aside from oil changes and a set of tires.  If you think an 8 year old car will require less work over the same 5-10 year period versus the new car, you're fooling yourself (and only yourself).

Wade

NOT DOING work is different from "needs work".  See, the maintenance SHOULD be done, but as you pointed out, ISN'T.  This may explain your statement of your experience that an 8 year old car will need more work.  All the folks with 8 year old cars in your area are simply buying the cars from the folks you know who've driven them for 5-7 years and haven't done any work on them other than to change the oil and maybe the tires.

My car has a valve-interference design.  For me to drive it (let's use 5 years for argument's sake, mmkay?) and average 15k miles/year (reasonable, no?), I'd be selling it RIGHT AT the mileage at which a timing belt change is recommended.  So passing along the cost to someone else isn't quuuuiiiiiiittttteee the same thing as "rare that work needs to be done", now isn't it?  Surely you see the problem with just this one part of the car, no?  And can therefore apply it to the rest of the parts that make up a car, yes?  And can therefore perhaps temper your assessment just a wee bit?  Mebbe even take a closer look at it and see Danny's "I'll buy a $10k car once a year and ditch the old one and come out even, if not ahead in the long run" theory vs. pat's might be a bit closer to reality?


My brother bought a $2000 junker and after a year the engine died. That's a higher depreciation than on a new car.


Why, when giving this example, only consider the depreciation on the new car?  He paid $2000 for the car, and got a total of one year's use, according to you.

If you were being honest and comparing costs, which you clearly didn't in this example, you would START with how much the new car cost for that year.  If you find something that is $100/month, that's $1200/year.  NOW add in depreciation.  My guess is that a new car depreciates more than $800/year.  I'd also guess the $2000 car had reached its cycle of depreciation and might have, if anything, APpreciated!

Cost of total ownership would be a wash at best, with the new car more likely being higher (and moreso than $100/month).  This is ALSO comparing a new car to a car that was probably junked after a year's use.  Had he put the money into a new engine, which even you should be able to agree would have given him AT LEAST 2 years of trouble-free operation (remember, it's a NEW engine, which also happen to come in NEW cars, which you're arguing is a better option because of LESS repairs, mmkay?), after that first year with the new engine, he'd have been making money hand over fist because the cost of total ownership swung wildly in his favor after that year.

It's as if the extreme ridiculousness of danny's example of having to replace the ENGINE every year finally leveling the playing field wasn't ridiculous ENOUGH!  :dizzy:

Well my income is paid per month so that's usually what I relate my expenses too. But sure you could do it over the whole run too.

the toyota yaris would have used roughly $20 per week fuel if i were driving it. so lets say $80/month. you should have full insurance for a new car. using the same company i used (AAMI) it is 43.75/month (cheaper per year, but you like these monthly figures  ;)) the car itself $312.50/month (and as you say, no extra costs in four years if still in warranty), registration $43/month so total is $419.50/month.

How do you get that a Yaris "itself" costs $312 a month? Is that depreciation? Depreciation on a 15,000 yaris would be roughly $150 a month. If you correct for that in your calculation then the new Yaris would cost roughly $250 a month.

Your monthly car costs are:
- $120 for fuel,
- $12.50 for insurance
- $40 on repairs
- $26 in depreciation ($2500 car worth half after 4 years = $1250/48)
=$198.50

With the Yaris coming out at $250 a month, the difference in cost is just over $50 a month (a 20% saving on the cost of driving a new Yaris).

I must have missed it yet again.  Where's the cost for the vehicle itself?  Danny, did you factor out the cost for the vehicle itself as well?  Where are the dealerships you guys are going to that allow you to take their cars off their lots without paying for them?  Who are these private sellers you guys lucked into that just GIVE you their cars to drive and "I'll pay you back when I sell it m'self!"  ;)

Given that what's being compared is a vehicle that depreciates to nothing, at which point it would have long been sold by pat, and a car that doesn't depreciate at all, you're essentially comparing a figure that doesn't even apply to one car.....nevermind.  ;D

Oh, and I haven't added to the fact that even though it's a Toyota, given Wade's example, your handle on depreciation is a bit....um....off, lets say.  I'd also add to this that your idea of depreciation rates doesn't jive with smaller cars in the U.S.  Even given gas prices, they simply depreciate at the rate an empty tuna can should - quickly.  Given your example of 50% over 5 years (I can't be stuffed to go back and check, besides, I got the 50% right, so you fill in the other number), that'd be 10%/year. 

Take Wade's $14k car.  D'ya think you'll be able to find one for $12,600 a year later?  Sure, at that same dealership, with ZERO miles on it.  In "the wild"? :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:  Ziaoucheleventy might believe that, but only if they start using them for "death trains"! :laugh2:


you missed the bit where i said 'i can sell it for the same price or even more'...

an hour of your time does tie into that relative term of 'considerable expense' since maybe you could earn $200/hour while i earn about $17.50/hour. but money is money. if i earnt $200+/hour i would still be inclined to drive a junker (thats probably the dutch in me  ;))

It only ties in for his example if he can absolutely honestly pick up work for the time he would be working on his car.  That's as absurd to claim as it is to point out that all the time spent posting on here would be better spent on his clients, since that is quite obviously the claim being made. 

It only ties in, and as you point out, is EXTREMELY relative, based on what you like to do.  I don't mind working on my car, but oftentimes wish I didn't have to do certain things (like oil changes).  For such things, I DO pay someone else if the cost is reasonable to me.  For you, danny, pulling the engine might be considered "reasonable".  In both our cases, getting our hands dirty isn't considered "UNreasonable", and in fact, might be considered "fun" or a "hobby".  For pat, quite apparently, putting gas in the tank seems to tax the limits of what tasks he wishes to perform on his cars.  It's not that way for everyone, nor is it even dependent on income level (see Jay Leno, for example).  I've got a BIL whose idea of fun car ownership was to buy a GTO fully restored, and beat the piss out of it, then pay someone to fix it back up to reasonable condition, and sell it. 

BTW pat, my BIL's car....he sold it in beat-up condition for EXACTLY what he bought it for, only with 4 years of abuse added to the odometer.  It's amazing that you think "old" cars often can't sell for what you've bought them for.  Methinks it's because it's not the norm for your country, and thus can't comprehend the apparent illogic in the situation, but I'm betting if Paige painted my Suburban that he now owns, he could sell it for several hundred more than I paid for it, even adding on the years and mileage he might have put on it, and subtracting the parts he put into it. 

I love coming in on these threads late!  This was a great way to spend a dreary rainy day!  Seems like another tornado is gonna touch down in a bit, so I wanna end this before my electric gets cut off.  Sorry to dredge up this old thread, bu....ah, screw youse guys, I LOVED dredging this old thread up!  :woot
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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #187 on: June 08, 2008, 09:28:30 pm »
2000 Dodge Durango (360ci V8) - 13.5 mpg freeway from Idaho to San Diego and back. 

1997 Dodge Dakota (315ci V8) - 15-16 mpg freeway

1977 Dodge Class-C 22' RV (440ci monster) - 6 mpg freeway (pulling a dune buggy)



you win :woot

although i see drew hasnt posted yet...

;D  Danny, the job change no longer has me in a truck.  That thing got 9-12 mpg depending on what I was towing.  Currently, the wife's car gets about 23-24 mpg, and mine gets 21-26, depending on what my weekend is filled with.

man, youve let the team down! you coulda clicked the 0-10 mpg thingo... frizzled is the now undisputed king of the gas guzzler  ;D

clear your desk. youre outta here...


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #188 on: June 08, 2008, 09:38:43 pm »

06 Scion xA   35 mph

wow, even my VW is fater than that!

Quote

No, your VW is PHat.  It's still fatter than his Scion.  Longerer too, I bet.


WORD









« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 09:55:40 pm by danny_galaga »


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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #189 on: June 09, 2008, 01:18:03 am »
1999 Peugeot 306 36miles/gallon with AWCO air-conditioning  ;D

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #190 on: June 09, 2008, 09:06:05 am »
My new Civic has average 32 mpg in the two fill-ups so far. We have only driven our Escape once since getting it.

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #191 on: June 09, 2008, 09:18:46 am »
With modifying my driving style somewhat (no jackrabbit starts, no RPM's above 3,000) my in-city MPG has improved to 34 mpg.  Just changing my habits gained around ~3 mpg.   :cheers:

(2008 Fit Sport AT, btw)

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Re: What kind of gas mileage do you get?
« Reply #192 on: June 09, 2008, 09:37:48 am »
I finally got a highway trip in my 08 Yaris 4-door Automatic.

This was with the A/C running the whole time.  Got 41 mpg on the way down (includes about 60 miles city driving) and 43 mpg on the way back up (maybe 30 miles city driving).  Much better than the EPA estimate!!!

Wade