What kind of gas mileage do you get?

[patrickl]

Patrick forgets to mention that a Diesel engine produces only a fraction of poisonous CO.  In that way, it's a lot cleaner than a petrol engine. Also, because of the much better milage Diesel engines are oil savers.

CO is not really the same threat as particulates are.

Diesel is not really an oil saver and neither is it an answer in fighting climate change.

It actually costs more oil to make diesel and the proces of making diesel also creates 25% more CO2 than creating gasoline does. When burned diesel emits more CO2 than gasoline does. If you offset all that with the extra mileage of diesel then there really is not that much difference between the two.

So diesel does not win on CO2 emissions nor on oil consumption. At best it's a minute difference of a few procent.

One way or the other, driving will pollute. Even all the "alternatives".

There is "pollute" and there is "emit a huge number of harmful of toxic particles" (as in 25 to 500 times as many). In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.

The biggest problem is that the current legislation is not able to cope with the threat that diesel poses. The legislation is set on grams of carbon per kilometer (mile). The problem with that is that the ultra-fine particulates (the ones which are actually not stopped by these modern filters) are the bulk of the number of particulates coming from a diesel engine, but since they are so small (smaller than 30nm) they weigh a lot less than the bigger particles which weigh a lot, pose much less of a threat and are indeed filtered by current filters. So what the current rules and filters are doing is taking out the soot that is less harmful to our health and in fact increasing the number of harmful particulates in the air.

[paigeoliver]

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.

meh. diesels are smelly...

and that right there is why diesels are not popular here. Oh I'm not agreeing with you Danny, I'm just saying your thought process is antiquated. When Americans think of diesel, we see dirty nasty coal trucks, tankers, and bulldozers - all of which belch big clouds of smoke from their stacks.
When they think of diesel cars, they think of the loud innefficient Mercede's models from the early 80's.

New diesel cars are badass, as level42 will reiterate.

As to price, diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. After Hurricane Katrina, diesel has just been creeping up and up.
The way I see it, screw the rest of us and our gas - that is secondary. The government needs to get off their ass and do something about diesel prices. gas tax breaks, increased domestic supply for diesel only, etc. The diesel is what drives this country, and effects the prices of everything we buy. I would be fine paying $3 for gas, as long as I didn't have to also pay for the $4 diesel via surcharges, inflation, etc.

Rant off.

[shmokes]

In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.

What???  That's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  You can't measure that.

[danny_galaga]

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.

dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...

[patrickl]

In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.

What???  That's ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.  You can't measure that.

Why not?

- They can show a relationship between lung cancer and number of particulates in the air
- They can estimate the number of particulates emitted by diesel cars and petrol cars

Looked up some California research on the matter. Not sure if it's the one I was referring to earlier, but it shows how it works:
Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Matter

[paigeoliver]

I didn't plan on actually getting one or anything.

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.

dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...

[danny_galaga]

I didn't plan on actually getting one or anything.

Those loud ineffecient Mercedes Diesels from the 80s are also basically the best car ever built. I don't have one myself (I have a gas benz), but I'd drive one.

dont paige, dont! they are aweful! slow, smokey, noisy. you would spend thousands just to overhaul the fuel pump. and many more to rebuild the engine- which you would have to if you didnt want it to belch smoke.

about modern diesels being different. yes they are different. the injection system is way higher pressure than previous systems, thus ensuring cleaner more effecient burning. but ive been behind enough 5 year old (shiny, not bush-bashed) landcruisers and the like to know that once the engines wear out even a little bit (which happens rather quickly it seems with cars and 4wds) they are no better than the older style engines. just as smoky as any ol' truck...

i know, i was just being melodramatic 

the mercedes you have now ist uber kühl 

[Teknique]

07 honda fit sport

[Wade]

My daily driver gets 30+ consistently, it's a 2008 Yaris 4-door.

I've measured 5 mpg in my 1994 RX-7.  That was a weekend of track driving, plus about 45 minutes each way to and from the track.  The flames shooting out of the tailpipe should be a pretty good sign that it's not going to get good gas mileage.   It gets 12-25 mpg under "normal" driving.

Wade

[HaRuMaN]

07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

[mountain]

2003 Dodge Ram 4x4 with 5.7L HEMI

Avg. 12.1 mpg (with a tail wind) 

[RayB]

In California they found that the emissions from the 10% of cars that run on diesel cause 80% of lung cancer.

What???  That's ---smurf-poop---.  You can't measure that.

Why not?

- They can show a relationship between lung cancer and number of particulates in the air
- They can estimate the number of particulates emitted by diesel cars and petrol cars

Looked up some California research on the matter. Not sure if it's the one I was referring to earlier, but it shows how it works:
Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust Particulate Matter

So I guess that gets the tobacco companies off the hook now.

I hear actually the rates are directly related to the absence of pirates, or something like that...

PS: 1991 Honda CRX dx: 28 to 38 mpg

[Apollo]

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

[mountain]

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

 

PHEW!!!

[Teknique]

07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

Tek
 

[HaRuMaN]

Yeah I'm a member over at fitfreak. 

[paigeoliver]

I daily drive a V8.

Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

If you want to throttle someone then throttle the long commute people. My weekly commute in my V8 is a grand total of 72 miles using 3.5 gallons of fuel (for the whole week). Plenty of people use more fuel than that in a single day in their hybrid and somehow feel superior because they get good gas mileage, even though they are driving 75 miles to work in San Francisco each way and that is the closest they could afford to live to the smug capital of the world.

So, hows your commute Apollo??

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

[Wade]

Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

How many are retiring a gas guzzler and putting it in a shed to rot away?  A vehicle that runs well will get driven by somebody.  People aren't taking V8's off the road before they're used up just because they get bad gas mileage.

I agree with the idea that the biggest part of our oil problem (that we can control) is suburban sprawl.  If people in the US didn't leave themselves dependent on long commutes to/from work, the whole oil price things would be a non issue.  But this is where we are.  I think we were foolish to put ourselves into this position, but generally, our country doesn't usually do the smartest thing, does it?

Most people live further from work because they could afford a nicer house the further they drove... and in today's housing market, it can be tough to unload a house.  I know people who owe more on their house than they can sell it for!  Not around here, thankfully (we've had positive growth).  My wife and I saw beyond this before oil prices were a problem.  We paid more for a house a few miles from downtown, in a nice, established, safe neighborhood with several different paths to work, and only a couple of traffic lights.  The extra we paid for our house has been MORE than made up for by saved time and travel costs.

The fact is that it's still a lot easier for most americans to switch to a vehicle that gets double or triple the gas mileage than it is for them to move.

Wade

[patrickl]

Sure people won't just destroy old cars. Which makes it all the more important that people don't buy new V8's when there is no good reason for it. Or that in general people buy cars with better fuel economy. We're stuck with the burden of these new cars for 10 to 15 years.

This is another reason why electric cars would work. If we find better, cleaner ways to produce electricity, the pollution "created by" the electric car decreases.

[shardian]

The prices of new and used SUV's has fallen sharply the last couple years. Most buyers do the math and realize the money they are saving in the lower price more than offsets the cost of gas for several years.

I am currently driving a P.O.S. Volvo that gets 20mpg. I was looking to buy a newer car in the 4k range that gets in the upper 20's mpg (these are damn near impossible to find too - other than junkers in the same shape as what I'm driving or worse). Driving the Volvo will cost me an extra $600-$700 per year in gas than a car that gets 25-30 mpg.

So instead of emptying my savings or paying a $150 car payment a month, I simply pay $50 more in gas per month.

Damn, these calculations depress the hell out of me. Before Hurricane Katrina, $600-$700 was close to my gas budget for the whole year.

[Cakemeister]

07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

Tek
 

So how do y'all like the Fit overall?

I signed up for a smart car but I was planning on getting a Fit if my current car dies before my smart gets to me sometime in the summer of '09.

The Fit got good reviews for its class and it is cheap.

[HaRuMaN]

I love my Fit... good cargo room, great gas mileage, but still fun to drive, navigates in traffic very well...  I'd highly recommend it!

Plus... a candy cab can fit in the back!

[Teknique]

07 honda fit sport

Hey cool, another Fit driver.  What color did you get?  Mine's blackberry pearl.

 I figured the car was going to be gay enough so I stuck with a traditional color- black.   Actually called nighthawk black pearl.  Ppl were giving me crap when I first bought it a year ago, now I just laugh as oil goes above $115.

FYI decent forum for fit owners:

http://www.fitfreak.net/forums/

Tek
 

So how do y'all like the Fit overall?

I signed up for a smart car but I was planning on getting a Fit if my current car dies before my smart gets to me sometime in the summer of '09.

The Fit got good reviews for its class and it is cheap.

Its basically a hatch back civic. (It has a civic engine in it)

Cargo room is hugh for its size.

Very good safety rating.

MPG is at the very top of the non-hybrid range.

Its super cheap for a commuter vehicle

Its got the Honda name backing it.

Very satisfied.

[missioncontrol]

1987 Ford Bronco  12-14 mpg

[patrickl]

Talking about mileage, the Shell Eco marathon is coming again (end of may).

Last year the winner in the prototype class drove 3039 km on one liter of fuel. That's 7148mpg!

The winning "UrbanConcept" got 1352mpg.

[Apollo]

My commute is 5 minutes. I should really cycle to work but the whole arriving at work in sweaty clothes doesn't really do much for me.

[danny_galaga]

My commute is 5 minutes. I should really cycle to work but the whole arriving at work in sweaty clothes doesn't really do much for me.

5 minutes makes you sweat? you really need to get on that bike!

[Havok]

I'm in the same situation as Paige - 350hp gas slurpin' V8, but my commute to work is 4 miles one way. 40 miles a week, and a little on the weekend, so I drive it about 3,000 miles a year. I use about 200 gallons of gas a year. How about you Level 42, Mr Diesel Lover? Who pollutes the earth more? My 5.7 liter or your 1.9 liter lawn mower? Plus, I'll bust your ass in a race...

 

[danny_galaga]

paiges car aint 350hp...

i like the shell marathon stuff. a lot of the entries use modified model engines (",)

[paigeoliver]

Hee hee, my V8 isn't even close to 350 horsepower, try 150 hp, old Benz V8s are low compression and more engineered to be bulletproof than they were for blazing quarter mile times. It also has a displacement (3.8 liters) in a range that is way more common for 6 cylinder engines than 8 cylinder ones).

paiges car aint 350hp...

i like the shell marathon stuff. a lot of the entries use modified model engines (",)

[danny_galaga]

I hear actually the rates are directly related to the absence of pirates, or something like that...

you know it's true! i can vouch for this being the grand prophet of the holy noodle

RAMEN.

[Havok]

paiges car aint 350hp...

That I know - I just meant the V8 slurpin part...

 

[patrickmaher]

05 Toyota Prius 42MPG

[mrtie]

2000 park avenue ultra about 25-28mpg
1987 porsche 944 about 28-30mpg

[danny_galaga]

I daily drive a V8.

Producing a new car ALSO uses a lot of energy and a lot of oil, and despite what you might think it is actually more sound to use up that V8 vehicle and THEN buy a more fuel efficient one that it is to take the V8 off the road before it is used up.

If you want to throttle someone then throttle the long commute people. My weekly commute in my V8 is a grand total of 72 miles using 3.5 gallons of fuel (for the whole week). Plenty of people use more fuel than that in a single day in their hybrid and somehow feel superior because they get good gas mileage, even though they are driving 75 miles to work in San Francisco each way and that is the closest they could afford to live to the smug capital of the world.

So, hows your commute Apollo??

40mpg in my 1.6L Suzuki Vitara

Anyone driving a V8 as their regular drive who does not have to tow anything should burn in hell.

very good point. my car isnt thought of as a gas guzzler, but commuting it gets only about 20MPG. i live so close to work though that it uses about 5 litres of petrol (a bit over 1 gallon) of petrol per week! i normally ride my bike to work though. as patrickl mentioned, you cant blaim people for buying older gas guzzlers when they are cheap.  you can blame car companies for building NEW gas guzzlers. that's wrong.

part of the problem i guess is a tendancy for people in the 'sprawls' to also like activities that might require bigger vehicles- camping, boating etc. the culture needs to change so that people realise you dont need 300-400 HP to get to a forrest or tow a boat...

[Paul Olson]

06 Scion xA   35 mph

[danny_galaga]

06 Scion xA   35 mph

wow, even my VW is fater than that!

[Level42]

I'm in the same situation as Paige - 350hp gas slurpin' V8, but my commute to work is 4 miles one way. 40 miles a week, and a little on the weekend, so I drive it about 3,000 miles a year. I use about 200 gallons of gas a year. How about you Level 42, Mr Diesel Lover? Who pollutes the earth more? My 5.7 liter or your 1.9 liter lawn mower? Plus, I'll bust your ass in a race...

 

I absolute numbers, I will pollute more. That's because I need to drive a lot and long distances (for our little country) for my work. It's not my choice. In fact, I'm starting to hate it more and more, especially because of traffic jams.

However, in relative numbers, starting up a V8 for a 4 mile drive is definitely the biggest polluter of the two. Your engine probably never reaches it's operating temperature, so the short drive you make is with a bad burning = lot of polution. Who needs a V8 for 3000 miles per year ? It's crazy.

I drive about 70.000 km per year...that's about 43000 miles. I program and commission Fire alarms around the country. I'm not proud of it, but it's how I make a living. The car is chosen (and paid) by the company. They choose Diesel because it's more economic here. Even though the car is higher taxed, and you need to pay higher road tax, Diesel is still cheaper per liter than gasoline here and, as mentioned you get a fabulous milage.

[Level42]

O and despite all the HP's, I will beat you at a race because I know how to handle stick-shift.

And you guys still underestimate the power (torque) of the modern Diesel

What V8 do you drive ?

[danny_galaga]

hehe. i'm sure you aren't the only one who can change gears    i myself have left clowns in their ricers at the lights- for the first 50 metres anyway until they realise what just beat them 

just noticed the specs for my old car, a daiwoo matiz- 55MPG!  i never really measured it like that when i had it, but it certainly was economical...